Mini 1044: Lie to Me Mafia - Game Over

[Tasky]

/confirm

[Tasky]

Timezone: GMT+1
Experience: I played a couple of games on this site, and a huge amount of real-life mafia
Fave Role: I'd say townie, but there are some town power roles I like
Playstyle in a nutshell: I actually played differently in every game I was in on this site... so I can't really tell.
Are you familiar with the theme?: yeah, I

love

Lie To Me...
Fave Alignment: TOWN


VOTE: Tazaro, for being scum

[Tasky]

Look at how Tasky answered the questions. The first five (minus the timezone) are all answered in the same style: "answer, some detail." The last question is simply answered in one word (and in all caps to make sure we're all convinced of it). The styles of answering the question changed from when he was probably telling the truth to the last question; he's lying.

wow... so you think you know better than me what alignment I prefer to play?
and even if I preferred to play mafia over playing town, how exactly would that make me scummy in this game since I did not pick my role.

I actually voted Tazaro for inter-game reasons (we played a game recently where he was believed to be scum by everybody but turned out town in the end). nothing to do with following your tunnel (the whole world is NOT rotating around you)

[Tasky]

Tasky

, are you aligned with town in this game? Will you have a favorite experience, or an unfavorite experience?

yeah, I'm town-aligned... don't understand the second part of the question though

I think we should vote players for

intra

-game reasons, and not

inter

-game reasons. It does not matter what role they played in another game. It only matters what role they play in this game.

well... it's RVS man, you vote for whatever reason you want...
UNVOTE: VOTE: Shepherd_of_Wolves because 1+2=3

[Tasky]

Alright, so the thing I was talking about before that no one has seemed to question me on has be answered, but I will pose the question in thread for the mod to answer to you guys:
Due to the flavor one might assume the game has a "lie detector" (I'm not trying to trick you into sayin whether or not there is). Due to rule 15a I wanted to check if suggesting the idea that everyone posts "I am not mafia" in the thread so that a potential lie detector becomes virtually a cop is breakin the game. Again, I'm not looking for any role info, I'm just looking for a "yes this idea is acceptable" or a "no, this ideacould potentially break the game". Thanks!

I think the idea is ok... after all it costs nothing to state that:

I am not Mafia.

and yes, I AM highlighting it.

I am now stating some things, so a potential lie detector will look for what he needs. (disclaimer: the statements below aren't all necessarily true)
a) I am a vanilla townie
b) I am a town power role
c) I am a cop
d) I am a doctor
e) I am a jailkeeper
f) I am a vigilante
g) I am a tracker
h) I am a watcher
i) I am a JoaT
j) I am a mafia goon
k) I am a mafia power role
l) I am a mafia roleblocker
m) I am a mafia godfather
n) I am a serial killer
o) I am nothing of the above

Nice! Another RV for "whatever reason you want..." I assume, the dot dot dot, means you can

fabricate

"whatever reason you

want

..." I am honestly okay with what ever vote you cast at this point. As it cannot yet lead to an incorrect lynch. But, I will have my eye on you to see if you continue to fabricate "whatever reason you want..."

actually the dots are just a bad habit of mine while writing.

(1) What are your rules for defining RVS?
(2) What do you call the stage after RVS?
(3) What are your rules that define the next Stage?

1. everybody votes for a random person for a stupid reason. just to cast a vote. used to begin the game
2. I wouldn't divide the game in "stages". how am I supposed to do that?
3. no general rules here. as soon as random vote start stopping, it's good to start looking over peoples posts twice and go scumhunt. usually that's achieved through a RVS-bandwagon

(4) How many times have you played mafia alignment?
(5) What makes it less favorable to you than playing town alignment?

4. once online (well, I've only played 3 games, so not really a big sample), a lot of times real-life
5. I hate to have to care about my scumbuddies in one way or another. and I hate having to lie and always be cautious.
I like doing crazy things but I wouldn't have the gut to do so as scum (also the reason why I usually don't like being a strong power-role: more responsibility).

[Tasky]

Now, can anyone tell me why this post is incredibly scummy?

I noticed how Taz was the only one brave enough to say that his favorite alignment was scum. I also noticed how Tasky put his preference in all caps.

Vote: Tasky

because his emphasis on preferring town is scummy. If you prefer town, you should just say it. Highlighting it like that looks like you're trying to score town points.

It's the beginning of the game, vote is highly subject to change, etc. etc.

hmm... the only thing I could come up with is this:
he says Taz is brave enough to say his fav. alignment is scum, like he would like to say that himself but fears to be lynched for it.

[Tasky]

VOTE:

Tasky

I think his post, #71 was a way to hide his statement. Because if the possible "lie detector" role is in the game, than he made his statement null and void within a post that is full of claims that contradict each other. The post detection may be weighted on the whole post, and not just an isolated statement within the post. If we make verifiable statements to be detected, I think they need to be isolate the statements like antihero.

and why does that makes me scummy?
I actually thought the lie detector picks isolated statements to verify.

happy now? (related to next post)

[Tasky]

I am town aligned

[Tasky]

^ EVERYBODY SHOULD DO THIS (you can also admit that you are mafia if you like, but make a statement)!

if you don't you will die. and DO NOT TRY TO TALK YOUR WAY OUT OF THIS.
if we have a lie detector, it will be used

[Tasky]

Cal wouldn't do that unless his daughter told him to and even then he would need convicing.

what are you talking about?

[Tasky]

vote tazaro

for now this is good enough to put some pressure on him

I find this scummy. although your reasons to vote tazaro are acceptable (and therefore a null-tell) I really dislike the last part of the post.
this is why:
if you really want to pressure somebody you have to make them think that you really believe them to be scum. posting that you are just "applying pressure" takes away the whole point.
on the other sides, by posting that phrase you build your self a disclaimer should someone call out a flaw in your case. you can then say you just wanted to pressure and didn't really mean your case.
if you were townie you would just apply pressure (and don't say so) and don't care about being called out. after all if your case is bad, you should want to be corrected instead of going on with a bad case. and you would really not need an out like the one you created.

I'm definitely doing this:
UNVOTE: VOTE: Robbnva

and I

do

mean it. Robbnva is scum.

[Tasky]

Tasky, why is Robbnva's "acceptable" reasons null-tell? If it is "acceptable", would that not mean you should consider it? Thus, making it of value, and not null. Explain yourself.

Robbnva's reason was acceptable, since I see the reasoning.I considered it. I just do not agree with it.
as I said, the scummy part was the last sentence, not the rest of the post.

day one is all about getting info, people won't talk unless they feel they have to.

Tazaro feeling the need to ask if somebody will die if they lie is suspect.

exactly... but you ended your post with a "this is just a pressure vote, nothing serious"-like thing. so you basically erased all the pressure you could have created. therefore that line was bad and I see no reason why town would do that (read my last post, I already explained that)

*__**_*_*_*__*_*_*_*_**__**_*_*_*_*_ _*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*__*_*_*_*_**_*_

Okay. Sitting back and waiting for a scumslip isn't going to work for me, I guess. So I guess I'll come right out and claim.

I have a one-shot daykill that I am going to use today.

My daykill will reset the votecount and extend the deadline by three days.
No, I will not be nameclaiming. I also won't be giving out any town reads, or any scumreads. It's better for all of us if no one knows who I will shoot until the very end, a lesson I learned in Popcorn Mafia (I'll provide anyone the link if they need me to).

Questions are coming next.

I have to say I like what you are doing here, I really do. BUT, I do want you to use your kill

today

. should you not use it, tomorrow I will do everything I can to have you lynched.
and, additionally I want you to give out your in depth reads on your top suspects after you shoot. I want you to explain in great detail why you shot and what else you have to say about this game.

Tasky, why should I shoot Robbnva?

cause he is scum

Are you willing to be the lynch for today if he flips town?

no, why should I?

Do you tend to lie in real life?

this is none of you business

Do you think Tazaro is buddying up to you?

let me reread a bit.. .. .. .. .. .. .. no, actually not.

_*_*_*_**_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*__*_*_*_*_**__**_*__*_**__**__**__**_*__**_

We can crop posts.

explain better, plz.

Lie detector isn't the role. It is a flavour restriction on my role which I am assuming will run for all lightman group power roles. Thus meaning that CMAR is confirmed lightman group.

your assumption is wrong. there is nothing about a lie detector in my role.

My way I'm playing as town this game may be different, but it's a matter of me being calmer this time around and

not jumping on every scumtell I perceive.

do that please. it would help the game

[Tasky]

@ Tasky. That just means you aren't one of the 4 people who are the Lightman group. See this is why people need to know the theme. The Lightman group is the group of people who are the deception experts. If you are one of those roles then you should have a lie detection condition on your role.

I

do

know the theme. and I

am

in the Lightman Group. and I

do not

have a lie detection thing.

@everybody else: I will post on everything else later

[Tasky]

(F) He mentions or refers to TASKY in posts 12, 13, 14, 15, & 17. That represents 20% of his 24 total posts. Why the hyper-focus? Defending him. Protecting him. Accommodating him. Never questioning him.

(G) If there is a TASKY connection (which I know there is) the next thing to do is see how much attention TASKY gives TAZARO.

TASKY ISO

Tasky mentions TAZARO in posts 1, 2, 5, 10, & 11. This represents 50% of his posts. All of them Defending, supporting, and never questioning Taz.

this reeks. you are totally misrepresenting things, drawing wrong conclusions and seeing what you want to see.

let's see those Tazaro posts where you say he "mentions me":
12 this is an attack on Antihero for a really crappy argument. now tell, me. how does this build a connection between him and me?
13 I and tazaro were already in one completed game where I got wagoned soon after he replaced in. at that moment the votes on me really were for stupid reasons.
14
15
17 he does something I asked every player to do
now, IS THIS A "HYPER-FOKUS"? DEFINITELY NOT. your "connection" is just made out of nothing. you are totally misrepresenting reality here. look: 20% mentions of a player is definitely normal in such a game. and why the hell is it a scummy connection?

now let's look at my posts, this part is even more funny:

VOTE: Tazaro, for being scum

I usually start the game by voting someone I already know.

I actually voted Tazaro for inter-game reasons (we played a game recently where he was believed to be scum by everybody but turned out town in the end). nothing to do with following your tunnel (the whole world is NOT rotating around you)

I explain, as someone had asked me

Now, can anyone tell me why this post is incredibly scummy?

I noticed how Taz was the only one brave enough to say that his favorite alignment was scum. I also noticed how Tasky put his preference in all caps.

Vote: Tasky

because his emphasis on preferring town is scummy. If you prefer town, you should just say it. Highlighting it like that looks like you're trying to score town points.

It's the beginning of the game, vote is highly subject to change, etc. etc.

hmm... the only thing I could come up with is this:
he says Taz is brave enough to say his fav. alignment is scum, like he would like to say that himself but fears to be lynched for it.

you seriously think I am talking about Taz here? go read again.

vote tazaro

for now this is good enough to put some pressure on him

I find this scummy. although your reasons to vote tazaro are acceptable (and therefore a null-tell) I really dislike the last part of the post.
this is why:
if you really want to pressure somebody you have to make them think that you really believe them to be scum. posting that you are just "applying pressure" takes away the whole point.
on the other sides, by posting that phrase you build your self a disclaimer should someone call out a flaw in your case. you can then say you just wanted to pressure and didn't really mean your case.
if you were townie you would just apply pressure (and don't say so) and don't care about being called out. after all if your case is bad, you should want to be corrected instead of going on with a bad case. and you would really not need an out like the one you created.

I'm definitely doing this:
UNVOTE: VOTE: Robbnva

wow. same as above: NOTHING IN THIS POST IS ABOUT TAZARO

My way I'm playing as town this game may be different, but it's a matter of me being calmer this time around and

not jumping on every scumtell I perceive.

do that please. it would help the game

wow. I addressed him directly. we must be scum together.

I find it incredibly hard to read Tazaro because of his attitude. I already made this experience once. therefore I really want to see more from him before I judge, maybe there is a vig who can take him out, or something happens.


this is much more I ever had on Robbnva. see it as OMGUS if you want, but you are definitely NOT trying to find out my alignment, you are trying to prove I am scum and discredit me. and that's what distinguishes town from mafia.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Shepherd_of_Wolves,
definitely

[Tasky]

damn... faillink... mod, could you please fix that?

[Tasky]

Tacky, you have got to be freakin' kidding, right?!

My name is TASKY! try to spell it right, will ya? and no, I am absolutely not kidding.

"although your reasons to vote tazaro are acceptable (and therefore a null-tell)..."

I know that you think you explained it in ISO post #11. Acceptable reasons are not by default, NULL. When you say, "and THEREFORE a null-tell" you are indicating that acceptable reasons are by default NULL. On the contrary, acceptable reasons are worthy of consideration. They may lead to unraveling the play of a mafia character. But, for you to brush off an ACCEPTABLE reason as "therefore" NULL, is suspicious. But, why hint that reasons against TAZARO are NULL, when they are acceptable reasons? I think it is because you do not want acceptable reasons to be evaluated further on him. You want to brush them off of him.

you really don't get it, do you?
the argument was a classical "good-enough-for-first-few-pages-argument". it wasn't convincing, it was exactly the kind of argument people tend to use in the first phase of the day. scum as likely as town. therefore to me, that argument didn't tell anything about Robbnva alignment. the thing that

was

suspicious, however, was his last line, which is the kind of thing scum like to use to get a plausible deniability on their cases. so I voted him for it. it was, indeed, a weak vote, but it was the best I had at that moment. now, luckily enough, you have revealed yourself as much scummier than Robbnva, so I dropped that "case" (if you want to call it a case).
now one question from my side:
do really you think I would have attacked Robbnva differently (or not at all), if his original argument was against someone other than Tazaro? do you really think that case of mine against Robbnva was about Tazaro? if the answer is yes, lol.

But, your comments are not as golden-boy as you make them.

My comment on you was to show that you interact with him, spending a lot of commentary on him. That is a reasonable sign that you are in cahoots with him.

But, mostly based on everything else he said, and has done.

and my comment on you was to show that this is bullshit. you want to see a connection between me and Tazaro, therefore you see one.

(1) Why are you not bothered by the fact that he defends you without reason?
(2) Should he see you as his KNOWN town?
(3) Or, why else is he sticking his neck out for you?
(4) What 5 reasons do you think I deserve your vote?
(5) Why do you think TAZARO is innocent?
(6) Why did I need to be pressured to UNVOTE you?
(7) Why of all the people on you, was it better for me to UNVOTE rather than put the pressure on you for information?
(8) Why are you defending TAZARO so much now?

(1) I think the reason is that he saw me being lynched in another game when I was town, I couldn't see any other reason. I played one game only with tazaro, but he made me the same impression as here. as I already said, his general attitude/meta makes incredibly difficult to get a read on him. I'd rather have a vig kill him than policy lynch him for playing bad. we are in another game together, I won't say anything about content, since it's ongoing, but he acts in a similar way there and I'd just attribute it to his bad play
(2) actually I don't really care about his opinion.
(3) how am I supposed to know?
(4) you made a post, which was full of crap in order to try and discredit me. just look at it, I mentioned the word "Tazaro" 5 times, 2 of which were not even about him directly and you call it a "connection". now, that looks like a terrible confirmation bias to me.
and also calling a 20% ratio a "hyper-focus" is the same confirmation bias. you saw what you wanted to see, and that' scummy. if you were town, you would want to find out whether we are scum or not, you would not want to bring up crappy points. you would attack us with the things you think we deserve and not things which are obviously bullshit.
(5) Tazaro is 3/4 innocent in this moment to me. no more, no less.
(6) again, how am I supposed to know what tazaro's thinking?
(7) same as (6)
(8) huh? am I defending Tazaro? show me where please! all I am doing is calling you out on your fail-case.

[Tasky]

Tasky, my spelling was accidental. I have spelt your name right so many times, you should not be offended. But, the mistake may be fitting in any case.

You defensive statements for TAZ are minor, but present. I have stated a logical and reasonable case on that. But, my point is that your minor interactions are consistent with TAZAROs major actions. He blatantly is sticking his neck out early for you. If your posts where just about what you said, they would be less likely to indicate much. But, in connection with the behavior of TAZ, they are consistent with the assumption that you are connected.

You have 2 reasons to vote for me. Rather poor reasons too. I was not attempting to discredit you based on your behavior solely. If you happened to be town, than TAZ really drew you into his ploy. But, you have not distanced yourself from him naturally. You have allowed yourself to have minor connections. So, I identified it. I did not make them up, you two made them together. I just pointed them out.

lol

[Tasky]

here are all the quotes of players claiming alignment:

I am aligned with the town.

I am aligned with the town.

@Tasky and everyone else: I prefer this statement ^ It takes away 3rd party skepticism
I am aligned with the town.

I am aligned with the town.

I am town aligned

I am town aligned

I guess I should say this if you want me to, Tasky: I'm town aligned.

I am town aligned.

hey guys...replacing Ghostwriter here.

sorta been following the game, but need to do a reread tonight.

in the meantime if there's anything in particular you want let me know...

oh and I am town-aligned.

Are we saying we are town aligned in case there is a lie detector?

If so. I am town alligned

following players didn't:
Maddie
ZeroFang
jimfinn

as soon as you post the next time, I want an isolated alignment claim.
and, I'd like CryMeARiver, Tazaro and Robbnva to repeat their claim, as their wording isn't entirely clear.

[Tasky]

Who are you planning to kill?

Probably no one. At this point in the game, I'd be taking a random shot, which is something that I will not be wasting my day-vig on.

is it your intention to kill until the end of the day?

Give us 5 reasons you still vote for Espeonage.

Yes, I will when I have time.

what happened with your "I won't tell my reads until the very end" - attitude?

I actually think you should shoot Tazaro.
if what you said is true, we will get a deadline extension after that and we will be able to analyze further knowing whether Taz is scum or not.

[Tasky]

Nachomamma8, shoot Taz. do it.
little question
will the three days of extension be added to the current deadline or will there be three days starting from your shot?
in the first case you should kill right now, it would give us more time later, once we know whether Taz was scum or not.
in the second case, you should tell us right now, and then shoot Taz directly before deadline.

[Tasky]

Nachomamma8, shoot Taz. do it.

This isn't helping me not think you're scum, just for the record.

[Tasky]

Tasky. My first vote on him was very weak, intended both to get reactions and to investigate the first semi-scummy action in the game. His ISO #11 was absolutely dreadful. He suggested we day kill a player who at the time (and even now) hadn't done much, and then tried to absolve himself of any responsibility. He's my first scum pick.

ok... now you tell me what's so dreadful about that post.
then you tell me how suggesting a vig kill is scummy. as I already said, Tazaro has such a scummy meta that it is impossible for me to get a read on him. on the other side he I really don't want him around later, for said scummyness and because he isn't able to contribute decently. this is the reason why I want him vigged. If there really is a one shot day vig, then he won't really find a better target later. Since he will likely be confirmed town as soon as he shoots, the mafia isn't going to keep him around very long. it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to vig Taz. I see it as a general rule that players who have really scummy meta and can't be read because of it shall be vigged instead.
and then you tell me where I "tried to absolve [myself] of any responsibility".

[Tasky]

ok... now you tell me what's so dreadful about that post. - your argument about my vote really did not make sense

it made sense to me. it actually still does. I know it is a weak argument, but it does make sense. I didn't have any better arguments at that time, so even a weak argument was enough to vote. and [weak] ≠ [nonsense]

then you tell me how suggesting a vig kill is scummy. - what if he kills the wrong person like cop or worse the doc, that is basically what you want him to gamble with

DING DONG! BULLSHIT ALARM! BULLSHIT ALARAM! DING DONG!
in your post 295 you say:

I actually agree with tasky, use the kill on tazaro

and, if I remember correctly, you are voting for taz. wtf? aren't you "gambling" too?

I know my gut feeling was right there. even if my case was weak. you are definitely scum. I am extremely serious about this. this kind of contradiction clearly shows that you just want to throw dirt on me. you do not want to hunt scum by analyzing posts and so, you say things to discredit people for the sake of discrediting.

also declaring me scummy with no reason is actually scummy. you still have not provided a valid reason why you think I am scum.

lol. you were of a quite different opinion earlier. (*)

I also really like how you answered my two "easy" questions while totally dodging the "hard" one, the one which you cannot answer to, because it exposes ZeroFang's crap-argument:

and then you tell me where I "tried to absolve [myself] of any responsibility".

since you are trying to answer for ZeroFang, answer this.

and last but not least, why do you need to respond to questions that I asked ZeroFang.
as soon as you flip scum, I'll definitely keep my eye on ZeroFang...

IGMEOY

Robbnva, you need to be todays lynch.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Robbnva

[Tasky]

ok, and now to your questions Shepherd:

So, now everyone has claimed town alignment. I have a few questions.

1) are you lying when you claim town? We know at least two of you are, and maybe even Three.
2) Do you know who is lying? We know that you scum know your partners.
3) Do you know who is telling the truth?
4) Why did you claim town alignment?
5) Are you just following suite to claim as "town" because tasky told you to claim as town, and you did for the sole purpose of fulfilling his request?
6) Who are your confirmed townies, and WHY?

1) no.
2) yes, Robbnva is lying.
3) no
4) because I think it's a good idea to give a potential Lie Detector significant posts to work with
5) I did it to follow suite, cause Tasky told me to do so.
6) no one. and even if there were people I think are confirmed (or very likely) townie, I wouldn't tell.

[Tasky]

@tasky. Tazaro is not a cop or doc so killing him with the day kill is acceptable
also I'm not have not lied all game but thanks for playing

you thought differently earlier:

what if he kills the wrong person like cop or worse the doc, that is basically what you want him to gamble with

your contradictions are so blatant it's really a pain to watch every minute of you being still around.

[Tasky]

@tasky I don't beleive tazaro is pro-town so there is no contradiction

well, you were accusing me of wanting to vig Taz. you said I risked to push a cop or a doc kill. and before and after that you advocate a Taz- lynch/vig yourself.
seems like a contradiction to me.

[Tasky]

His ISO #11 was absolutely dreadful.

ok... now you tell me what's so dreadful about that post.

You suggested we hang the vig tomorrow if he doesn't use his kill now. You also suggested he use it right now, without hesitation. You suggested he kill a different person than the last time you mentioned it, so now you're contradicting yourself as well. You don't care who he shoots as long as it's someone. That's scummy. Your reason for shooting Robb was that he was scummy, no explanation. That's also highly scummy.

oh my god, it's not that difficult to grasp: at that time my top suspect was Robbnva, I gave an explanation for that. He announced he would shoot someone today, I want him to do as he said.
since my read was nothing really big, I wanted to let him vig Taz, since I can't get to read him and his flip will get us valuable information for todays lynch.
right now I'd again prefer he shoots Robbnva, as I have a really strong scum read again. and, because I think that if he is scum, you are a really likely buddy. I'm slightly suspicious of you, but I actually am much more sure Robbnva is scum.

then you tell me how suggesting a vig kill is scummy.

You're suggesting it for many different people and suggesting using it immediately. Townies would want to wait to get more information.

it's exactly the other way round. the vig kill will give us the information we need for todays lynch. should Nachomamma8 listen to me and kill Robbnva-scum, and should I be right, we can lynch you today.

and then you tell me where I "tried to absolve [myself] of any responsibility".

Are you willing to be the lynch for today if he flips town?

no, why should I?

aaaahhhh. that's what you mean? -> lol
how exactly would I help the town by taking the lynch for today? how has that to do with not taking responsibility? I am quite certain Robbnva is scum now, it was just a weak case on that time. in both cases there is a chance of me being wrong. why would I want to sacrifice myself in that case?

[Tasky]

can you explain how you are "quite certain" somebody who has already said he is with the Lightman group is scummy to you?

I'll explain again. your posts are always contradicting each other and you keep doing things and blame other people for doing the same things:

• one:

  vote tazaro

  
  
  for now this is good enough to put some pressure on him

  this was the first scummy post (I actually explained this a lot of tims already): basically, you vote tazaro and then "disclaim" by posting that it's just a pressure vote. that way, you don't have the responsibility of you vote. you don't have to take a stance later if you really found him scummy as you can just hide behind the pressure you put on him to gain info.
  again, the problem here is not with you voting, and neither with voting only for pressure. the problem is with you
  telling everybody you are voting for pressure
  . this nullifies the effect of the pressure, since Taz isn't going to feel pressured if he knows you only vote for pressure and not for a (potential) lynch.
  
  
  
• second contradiction:

  so tasky is claiming being part of the lightman group, I don't get why people put themselves out there that early

  can you explain how you are "quite certain" somebody who has already said he is with the Lightman group is scummy to you?

  
  
• then you make this post:
  
  this is a clear scumtell for two reasons:
  1. you answer to questions which were not addressed at you.
  2. you totally contradict yourself (third contradiction):
  

  then you tell me how suggesting a vig kill is scummy. - what if he kills the wrong person like cop or worse the doc, that is basically what you want him to gamble with

  here you blame me (and agree with ZeroFang) for suggesting a vig kill on tazaro. your argument is that I am gambling with killing a doc or a cop and that my actions is anti-town.

  I actually agree with tasky, use the kill on tazaro

  @tasky. Tazaro is not a cop or doc so killing him with the day kill is acceptable

  before and after that post you post that vigging Taz is ok and you even encourage it.
  
  
  
• fourth contradiction:

  Tasky is my second suspect!

  while I originally thought that, I think it is just too obvious that both of them are scum, taz did more of the buddying and playing up to tasky than the other way around so the obvious choice is taz is scum and tasky is probably not

  also declaring me scummy with no reason is actually scummy. you still have not provided a valid reason why you think I am scum.

  it's clear to me, that in your post #323 all you do is to agree with ZeroFang and trying to answer the questions for him. the problem with that is, that you answered them in a way which is coherent to HIS line of thought in the game, but absolutely not to yours.
  
  
  
• and this post is just funny:

  also per my role pm I am working with the rest of the lightman group so I can't possibly be anti-town

[Tasky]

Me saying voting to put pressure is not scummy

it is anti-town at best. town wouldn't want to do it

your contradiction statement I already explained

then explain again, please

me provinding my own thoughts on your questions to somebody else is my own perogrative and isn't scummy

I didn't ask you those questions. town do not answer for someone else.

the post you find funny is from my role pm so if yours doesn't say something similar than I have to question your allignment to the lightman group.

why would you have to make that post?


@Shep: I don't agree. I think Robbnva is so scum here, he has to be todays lynch!

[Tasky]

fact is my case on tazaro is solid and nobody not even tazaro has been able to argue against my points. Tazaro refusing to comment on a case vs him makes him even more scummy. He is hoping it will go away. So if the day killer isn't going to do anything let's lynch the best candidate for scum, which is tazaro and let the people with actions sort out the rest.

now tell me: why shouldn't there be more two cases going on at the same time?
the Tazaro case is totally independent on my case on you. I don't know whether Taz is scum or not, fact is: you are

All you are doing is trying to distract from the tazaro case by posting nonsense and your case on me is WEAK

lol! you really must be sweating right now knowing I caught you.
why don't you give up already and admit being scum?

[Tasky]

Nachomamma!
I want you to tell us NOW (in your next post, that is) whether you are going to shoot someone today or not.

if you don't shoot, I want a large breakdown of your view on the game. I want to hear a GOOD explanation for not shooting, considering you declared that you were definitely going to shoot today.

if you tell us you'll shoot, I'd recommend doing it immediately. I really don't want deadline hitting us. the moment you shoot I want the reasons for your target choice.

[Tasky]

@mod: could you please prod everyone. we are approaching deadline and there are only 5 active players here

[Tasky]

Tasky you want contradiction?

look at Nacho's post 3 where he says he WILL kill someone

and his post 21 where he says he probably won't use it now

so he basically ran a gambit to get people to talk and it basically failed cause he became inactive instead

talking about deflection... lol
you are still scum

I just made a post for nachomamma (two posts before this)
I want him to answer soon.

[Tasky]

Tasky you are are either scum or VI

lol. trying to bully me off?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

damn
this goes against all my principles, but a Taz lynch is definitely better than a no lynch.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Tazaro

Robbnva, don't think I forgot you. I have you caught and you know it.
and people, PLEASE, go and look back on Robbnva. you really don't see what I see?. Robbnva is scum, he has to be our lynch!

[Tasky]

Nachomamma, just one question.
why did you announce that you would definitely be using your shot today, when you know you could possibly change you mind?

[Tasky]

This pushiness of SoW is going to be incriminating I hope. I mean, for pete's sake chill out with your desire to lynch a townie.

Unvote

Vote: Tazaro

so you admit being scum?

cause if you are town, self hammering is the worst thing you could do, ever.
after all, we got our deadline extension, didn't we? we could have waited some more days, maybe some inactive player was going to come back. we could have gotten much more information out of your lynch.

Shep, I understand your point, and I partially agree. this is why I thought vigging Taz was the best available option.
But I do not agree that he should self lynch as townie. it just robs us of the information we would get from the way someone else hammer's.
I really hope tomorrow (game day) more people will be posting.

[Tasky]

this is all going so wrong...

[Tasky]

VOTE: Robbnva

[Tasky]

Nacho is town.

I believe ya

[Tasky]

this game needs more Robbnva votes...

[Tasky]

why isn't anyone listening to me?

everybody is ignoring my robbnva case but nobody is telling me why you actually think it is weak... did you even look at it?

[Tasky]

Tasky, why was it against all your principles to vote for Tazaro? Did you really have inside knowledge that he was VI and not scum? He was the scummiest player by far. And, he really buddied up to you. I wonder what convinced you he was not scum. Please do tell.

I was never convinced he wasn't scum. the thing is, I know him (a little) and know his play style. and I know that he behaves that way when he is town (I never played with him when he was scum), so I thought lynching him was the wrong play. but on the other side I am aware that he has to die sooner or later since I really can't get a read on him, that's why I wanted him vigged. since we wouldn't have lynched anyone else that day, a Taz lynch was probably better than a no-lynch, especially since there was, after all, a possibility of him being scum.

[Tasky]

Tasky: what makes you think Robbnva is scum and not just a VI? As far as I can see, the bulk of your problem with Robbnva is that he contradicts himself on several occasions.

hmm... well, of course I can't know that, you never can. but unless I get some meta-evidence that robbnva tends to behave like a VI usually, scum-tells are scum-tells.

Jimfinn vote is still looking good. Narsis looks like a good bet for scum coasting and not saying a great deal. The Maddie/Mokujin slot needs to produce some content asap as literally nothing, and I mean nothing, has come out of it. Don't really like SoW's repeated insistence on linking Tasky to whoever his top suspect happens to be at the time.

is [don't liking what he does] = [him being scummy] or is it just a matter of personal taste?

[Tasky]

Tasky: yes, if I don't like it, it means I think it's scummy. As for Robbnva, if meta would confirm or deny your suspicions, why haven't you gone looking for any?

hmm... call it laziness. well, I can't (and don't want to) reread all of robbnva's games.

When I look for scum, until proven otherwise, nobody is a VI. Scum-tells are scum-tells and they catch scum. I will listen if someone has good evidence that robbnva is VI, but it has to be really good. I don't think I have to prove someone is not VI. I prove they are scummy and deserve the lynch, and until proven otherwise that's enough.

[Tasky]

Tasky, why is Robbnva's "acceptable" reasons null-tell? If it is "acceptable", would that not mean you should consider it? Thus, making it of value, and not null. Explain yourself.

Robbnva's reason was acceptable, since I see the reasoning.I considered it. I just do not agree with it.
as I said, the scummy part was the last sentence, not the rest of the post.

If someone has valid points those points are not null BECAUSE they are valid. So he disagrees with the points. The disagreement makes the points of attack null for him. But, the validity of the points do not by nature nullify the points. Tasky used the word, acceptable points are NULL.

You are thinking in the wrong direction:
Usually posting a case is a nulltell. Scum and town both post cases in similar ways.
You see this as a "downgrading", but in fact it's an "upgrading". If it wasn't valid, it would be a scum-tell, therefore it is a null-tell

because

it is valid. What I said with that is that the fact he is posting a case is not scummy, because the case is valid (although weak and -in my opionion- wrong)

I have to say I like what you are doing here, I really do. BUT, I do want you to use your kill today. should you not use it, tomorrow I will do everything I can to have you lynched.

This appears to be an empty threat. He has done nothing today to get Nachomamma8 lynched. Why? He tried to pressure Nacho to make a shot with this threat. Town should hope to persuade Nacho to use his shot effectively before he does. But, in any case, he has not even considered doing anything about lynching him, or explaining himself from backing off the threat.

I found scum. that's enough for me not to want a Nachomamma lynch. Additionally I think he is town. Why would I ever want to push his lynch?

this is much more I ever had on Robbnva. see it as OMGUS if you want, but you are definitely NOT trying to find out my alignment, you are trying to prove I am scum and discredit me. and that's what distinguishes town from mafia.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Shepherd_of_Wolves,
definitely

What is this? Another empty threat. Now he has turned back to Robbnva, even though he had "much more" on me than he "ever had on Robbnva". What happened to that? Emptiness.

huh? where is the threat? I thought that you are scum. I still think that you are more likely scum than others. BUT, I am quite sure robbnva is scum. I had "much more" on you. As I said, my first case on robbnva was weak, call it a feeling. But it changed, I've got concrete evidence right now. My gut was right after all, but it wasn't enough back then to be sure.

so I voted him for it. it was, indeed, a weak vote, but it was the best I had at that moment. now, luckily enough, you have revealed yourself as much scummier than Robbnva, so I dropped that "case" (if you want to call it a case).

He admits he had a weak case on Robbnva. And insists that he was lucky enough to find me. And, he "dropped" his case.

I'm tired of saying the same things over and over again: my first case on robbnva WAS weak. so what? is that scummy? I dropped that case because your whole Tazaro/Tasky connection thing was just plain nonsense. Now I've got a nice and solid case against robbnva again and I want his lynch.

I actually think you should shoot Tazaro.

Nachomamma8, shoot Taz. do it.

He really demands Nachomamma shoots and kills. Funny thing, he would not vote for Tazaro, but he would call on someone to kill him. And, then later it was entirely against his principles to vote for Tazaro.

Tasky. My first vote on him was very weak, intended both to get reactions and to investigate the first semi-scummy action in the game. His ISO #11 was absolutely dreadful. He suggested we day kill a player who at the time (and even now) hadn't done much, and then tried to absolve himself of any responsibility. He's my first scum pick.

ok... now you tell me what's so dreadful about that post.
then you tell me how suggesting a vig kill is scummy. as I already said, Tazaro has such a scummy meta that it is impossible for me to get a read on him. on the other side he I really don't want him around later, for said scummyness and because he isn't able to contribute decently. this is the reason why I want him vigged. If there really is a one shot day vig, then he won't really find a better target later. Since he will likely be confirmed town as soon as he shoots, the mafia isn't going to keep him around very long. it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to vig Taz. I see it as a general rule that players who have really scummy meta and can't be read because of it shall be vigged instead.
and then you tell me where I "tried to absolve [myself] of any responsibility".

So, why did he not demand I get vigged? I was his top suspect. Why did he not want Robbnva vigged? He was second on the list. And, earlier he wanted him vigged for being scummy. But, why switch to Tazaro? He did not even care, UNTIL THIS TIME, that Tazaro was scummy. Yet, later it was still against all his principles to vote him. All the sudden, "it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to vig Taz." If he DID NOT see him as scum, and he DID see him as town, why would it be a shame to let him live day one? Really, this is an easy kill without the responsibility of having to vote a TOWNIE.

You got it. I think Tasky knew he was town. He wanted him killed here, but later he conveniently went against all his principles to follow town to vote for Tazaro. The fact that it was against all his principles, even though he called out for him to be vigged shows me that he wanted to not be connected with a VOTE on a TOWNIE lynch wagon.

You totally don't understand (or don't want to understand):
I think players that are hard to judge need to die eventually, but they need to be vigged. A vig's job is getting rid of VI's who might or might not be scum. If I believe a player is scum, I push for their lynch, not them being vigged.
Additionally, I never thought Tazaro was town. If you believe I did, you clearly didn't understand anything. I usually don't vote people for being VI's. I vote any lynch people because I think they are scum. I usually do not policy lynch. I absolutely not convinced that Tazaro was scum, so voting him was just wrong for me. BUT, he was the only possible lynch that day. And no-lynching day one is definitely worse than lynching a scummy player who could be scum or could be town. Best case scenario we get scum, worst case scenario the vig saves his kill. But this doesn't make his lynch better than the lynch of a scummy person, that's why I didn't want him lynched when I could still hope you would listen to me.

[weak] ≠ [nonsense]

When he has weak reasons to vote, it is NOT nonsense. Yet when Robbnva had a "acceptable" reason, it WAS null. Or, in other words, if TASKY has weak reasons it is not nonsense, but when ROBBNVA has acceptable reasons it is null (nonsense).

bullshit-o'-meter just went off
this just doesn't make sense:
first, how is null=nonsense?
second, why is an acceptable reason for a vote someone a town-tell?
third, why is a weak reason nonsense?
fourth, why is a weak reason scummy?

you are really trying hard to misrepresent here.
I'll repeat it one last time: being "null" is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Usually I look for scumtells not for town-tells. so if something is null, it means it is not scummy.

Referring to Robbnva defending his call to vig TAZ, he says

and, if I remember correctly, you are voting for taz. wtf? aren't you "gambling" too?

First, it is much less of a gamble to take the responsibility to vote, and persuade others to join you. If you call out for a easy, no responsibility, vig kill that is far more of a gamble for town. Town whats to kill based on reasons they believe in. And Tasky never believed in VOTING for TAZARO. NEVER. It was against all his principles. Yet, Robbnva, wanted his scummy player dead. NOT just an easy, no responsibility, kill.

First, I never wanted to vote Tazaro. I wanted to vig him. where is the problem?
Second, you are completely twisting words here: gambling is when you kill someone who's alignment you are not sure of. It could work well or it could fail, but it's not related with responsibility.
Third, I always took every possible responsibility for Taz's death if the vig had killed him. I you don't see this, you should look closer.

Notice, I never called for a vig kill. I called for a town majority lynched based on reason. And, I set forth my reasoning. I was the strongest player against TAZARO, and I did not call for a VIG KILL. I took responsibility for my vote. Yet, TASKY, fighting tooth and nail not to vote for Taz, just wanted an easy kill. Keep in mind he said that TAZARO was 3/4 town. 75% majority town players, should never be your pick for a vig kill.

lol. 3/4 is exactly the the null-line (considering standard 3 scum/12 players). Me wanting to vig taz isn't minimally related to my scum/town evaluation of him, just of my ability to evaluate him. I know how he plays, this game just confirmed it, I cannot get a read on him. ... well, I'm just repeating myself here.

I know my gut feeling was right there. even if my case was weak. you are definitely scum. I am extremely serious about this.

Wait, why not call for Robbnva vig kill right now? You did not care about killing scum. And, what happened to any case on me. All the sudden, his empty threat on me goes nowhere.

You are right here: Nacho, vig robbnva.
I still think you are scum, the more I am reading your post the more I think you are the missing scum-member I was looking for.
However, I want robbnva lynched first. If he is vigged, I'll be fine too.

Below are the real fears of tasky.
To Robbnva, he says

you just want to throw dirt on me.

Earlier he accused me of the same thing. He really is worried about being show in any bad light.

lol. you continue to don't understand/misrepresent things. I don't really care what you think about me. What I know is that scum throws dirt on people, while town tries to find out players alignment. In particular, scum will try and twist every word and every action and make it look scummy. Town will attack a player only for SCUMMY things, accepting valid arguments.

you are definitely NOT trying to find out my alignment, you are trying to prove I am scum and discredit me.

as soon as you flip scum, I'll definitely keep my eye on ZeroFang... IGMEOY

Robbnva, you need to be todays lynch.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Robbnva

He calls for Robbnva to be Day 1 lynch. Robb was not even close to being lynched. Tazaro was. Why not ask Nachomamma to vig kill him?

Yeah, maybe I should have asked him. but do you really believe he would have done it?

In ISO post 23 he does not know who is telling the truth, but he definitely states Robbnva is lying.

so what? what exactly is your point?

Tasky is suffering that Robb is not being killed. Why not call for a vig kill? He did on TAZ.

see above

your contradictions are so blatant it's really a pain to watch every minute of you being still around.

I wanted to let him vig Taz, since I can't get to read him and his flip will get us valuable information for todays lynch.
right now I'd again prefer he shoots Robbnva, as I have a really strong scum read again. and, because I think that if he is scum, you are a really likely buddy. I'm slightly suspicious of you, but I actually am much more sure Robbnva is scum.

Oh, hear he finally calls for a Robbnva vig kill, PASSIVELY.

But, why not lynch Tazaro by vote, if you believed him 3/4 town?

But, remember, TAZ never was a suspect. He just wanted to vig him.

Can you explain the bolded part, I don't understand your point. Why would I want to lynch someone I believe 3/4 town (=null)

NOW of all people, you really made a huge deal of my connections. My connections were based on actual text evaluation. But, you just draw a Zero connection from the air. You never post a case for connection. Your connection analysis is far more crappy than mine. But, you really saw me as scum when I posted a analysis of how you appeared to be connect to TAZARO. Be assured, I do not think you are connected to TAZARO now. He is confirmed innocent. You are appear guilty to me.

please restate your point. I just read a lot of blabla here.

if you don't shoot, I want a large breakdown of your view on the game. I want to hear a GOOD explanation for not shooting, considering you declared that you were definitely going to shoot today.

So, did he answer you sufficiently? You never pursued this.

I already found scum and I believe Nacho to be town. No reason to pursue any further.

Tasky you are are either scum or VI

lol. trying to bully me off?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

damn
this goes against all my principles, but a Taz lynch is definitely better than a no lynch.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Tazaro

Robbnva, don't think I forgot you. I have you caught and you know it.
and people, PLEASE, go and look back on Robbnva. you really don't see what I see?. Robbnva is scum, he has to be our lynch!

Here is the post where it has always been against ALL his PRINCIPLES to VOTE for Tazaro. But, he was willing to have him be an easy, no responsibility, vig kill. He was willing to have that way early in the day. But, now at end of day, he is extremely reluctant to vote for him. He is removing himself from being responsible for the vote. This is spond by the

we could have gotten much more information out of your lynch.

Oh the resentment. Yet, earlier he was willing to have an immediate vig kill on him. Again, removing himself of responsibility for his vote.

you are repeating the same things over and over again, don't you notice that?

Nacho is town.

I believe ya

I do not like how easily he accepted that Nacho was town. He was adamant that he would push for a Nacho lynch. Yet he hands down accepts this town claim.

That was convenient to not have make good on his strong threat.

Notice, he never was satisfied with Nacho's treatment of the vig kill.

italic mine: I don't understand this part
bold mine: evidence please.

Tasky, why was it against all your principles to vote for Tazaro? Did you really have inside knowledge that he was VI and not scum? He was the scummiest player by far. And, he really buddied up to you. I wonder what convinced you he was not scum. Please do tell.

I was never convinced he wasn't scum. the thing is, I know him (a little) and know his play style. and I know that he behaves that way when he is town (I never played with him when he was scum), so I thought lynching him was the wrong play. but on the other side I am aware that he has to die sooner or later since I really can't get a read on him, that's why I wanted him vigged. since we wouldn't have lynched anyone else that day, a Taz lynch was probably better than a no-lynch, especially since there was, after all, a possibility of him being scum.

He thought lynching TAZARO was the wrong play, but not calling for him to be VIGGED. Denying responsibility. He wanted him vigged early on DAY 1. Why? cause he can read him. Not because he was scummy. That is brilliant for town.

Lynch the UNREADABLE before the SCUMMY.

Lynch the scummy, vig the unreadable. that's it.

When I look for scum, until proven otherwise, nobody is a VI. Scum-tells are scum-tells and they catch scum.

Yet, he thought TAZ was VI. He did not say it, but he says UNREADABLE. He ignored all the scummy behaviors on him.

That's because I know Taz from another game. That's what I see as "proven otherwise".

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

SoW, why aren't you voting for me?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

Town: Tasky, Locke, SoW, nacho
Scum: jim, Narsis

Why do you think I am town?
Would you night-kill me if you were scum?

Tasky, please summarize the case on Rob.

I think this post summarizes my case on robbnva quite good.

I actually find the "Well that sucks" to be the most reliable among static, isolated tells.

hmm. could you provide evidence?
Is it also a good tell when there are non-static, non-isolated tells out there?
are you basing your whole case on that tell?

[Tasky]

SoW:
assume we lynch narsis today and he flips scum, would your suspicions on jimfinn go up or down? what if narsis flips town?

This is a reference to Tarhalindur's standard tell. From the wiki:

The "Well, That Sucks" Tell

I wanted to say "Dammit, dammit, dammit, dammit, DAMMIT!". I'm curious what you would have thought of me.

so you don't think the "Well, that sucks"-tell is a scum tell?
Why would you say "Dammit"? Wasn't the night favorable to us?

[Tasky]

Tasky, your case against Robbnva does not convince me.

I looked at his profile to see when he last visited the sight. It was 24 September. That is 5 days.

While there I noticed his 4 rules for identifying scum. He states:

1. The most pro town player
2. The lurker
3. The person who deflects when accused
4. The person most against the day 1 lynch of a townie

Now, my whole case on you going against all your principles to vote for TAZARO is defined by rule 4. That is was bothered me most about you when TAZARO flipped scum. And, If Robbnva was actually playing on DAY 2, I am absolutely sure he would be up and down your back for that, as it is one of his rules.

BULLSHIT ALARM!!! BULLSHIT ALARM!!!

first: those rules are total crap. WHY IS THE MOST PRO-TOWN PLAYER SCUM??
second: those rules are total crap. WHY IS LURKING SCUMMY?
third: those rules are total crap. WHY IS SOMEONE SCUM IF HE TRIES TO STOP TOWN FROM MAKING A MISTAKE?
fourth: Why should we use Robbnva's rules? Since when did he acquire guy-to-follow status?
fifth: Why does it matter that Robbnva would attack me for his "rules"? Is that meant to be an attack against me?
sixth: Why are you following what Robbnva is doing/thinks?

Here is the voters on Tazaros lynch.

Tazaro(6) - Robbnva, Shepherd_of_Wolves, Narsis, jimfinn, Nachomamma8, Tasky

And, the hammer was TAZARO.

This is just a review. I think it is fitting for all the proposed suspects. But, I think there is possibly 1 scum off the lynch. But, I am seeing both Narsis and Jimfinn on there. That supports there suspicion.

Tasky joined with much resistance, that supports that rule 4 I posted earlier from Robbnva.

Robb is there, supporting Tasky's claim.

Nachomamma is there (believed to be town by most, with the Espeonage claim).

And, I am there.

At this point:
So, I am willing to consider that Nacho is town.
I am giving Tasky the benefit of being town.
I personally believe Robbnva is possibly town.
And, we know that Tazaro is confirmed town.
And, I know that I am town.

That leaves
Narsis (10 posts at time of lynch, 16 to date)
Jimfinn (16 posts at time of lynch, 20 to date)

WHY DO YOU THINK ROBBNVA IS TOWN? WHY DO YOU THINK I AM TOWN?

red

: so you believe that rule? so you believe I am scum? Why don't you say it then? Do you fear that you would be shot down for it?

blue

: with Tasky's claim, do you mean my case on robbnva? so do you believe my case or not? what does that sentence mean?

yellow

: so do you believe Nacho is town just because he is "believed to be town by most"?
why is the number of posts relevant?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_

SoW

are you willing to take the lynch tomorrow if Narsis flips town? are you willing to take the lynch the day after tomorrow if both Narsis and jimfinn flip town?
Could you please link me a game of yours were you were town an played the best game in your opinion? And your best scum game too please.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Hey

Locke

, you still owe us this:

I've got my own thoughts about SoW's case but I'd rather hear what Tasky has to say on the subject first.

how about posting your own thoughts.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Nachomamma

, are you going to use your kill today?
What do you think about SoW's case against me? What do you think about my case on robbnva? What do you think on SoW's wagon analysis?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_

@

Antihero

17: He is hyper focussed on what seems to seem "like a reasonable protown plan". He is just following the PROTOWN crowd. Not being a mover of the protown crowd. In even participating in it. Just following it. Because, if it seems protown, maybe that will shed on him.

This is the point that I am making just above, he blames his vote on being convinced by NACHO. Not based on the rhetoric he was looking for between the three players he found suspicious.

This is a very good point that I hope doesn't get lost in the text wall.

are you talking about SoW's or Narsis' point?

Scum are likely to comment on the night results because it serves the purpose of making them seem like they have something to say when they really don't.

Why do town have less to say than scum?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Narsis

, how exactly was your "trap" supposed to work. Post theory if necessary, I want to see your reasoning behind it.
"initial thought would move Tasky to the scum side as a result of the flip, but this is mainly why i want to do a reread" -> why does the flip put me on the scum side?

[Tasky]

so when you posted that line your only intention was to use it as scum trap?

[Tasky]

I have a lot to say about the main cases, but I'm going to comment when I'm not in a hurry to get ready for school.

also

ZeroFang

, I want this from you.

[Tasky]

This is a reference to Tarhalindur's standard tell. From the wiki:

The "Well, That Sucks" Tell

I wanted to say "Dammit, dammit, dammit, dammit, DAMMIT!". I'm curious what you would have thought of me.

so you don't think the "Well, that sucks"-tell is a scum tell?
Why would you say "Dammit"? Wasn't the night favorable to us?

ZeroFang

, you missed this question. ANSWER IT.

That's true, but again, you missed the big scum tell here. He believed from meta Taz was town and

called for vigging him anyway

. I agree with the philosophy of vigging the unreadable. That isn't a scum tell, that's a meta/philosophy tell, and arguing about that gets into a discussion about how generally to use your vig kills. The scum tell is that he wanted

town

to be vigged. I'm really very surprised everyone missed that. He blatantly distanced himself from Taz, called him town, and then called for his vig. This is why he's scummy. It's not because he has (in your opinion) bad vig philosophies. That's a ridiculous argument.

WHERE DID I SAY TAZARO IS TOWN?
you guys keep repeating the same crap argument over and over.

[Tasky] was really strongly pushing a case, saw it fail, and then switched to the guy who was gunning for him yesterday. We are in agreement here.

huh? what the hell are talking about?

so, Zero, tell me: DO YOU THINK I AM SCUM, YES OR NO?
you are pushing a case against me, yet you don't vote me.

you just called SoW out on some ridiculous arguments, do you think he is scum because of it?

[Tasky]

This is a reference to Tarhalindur's standard tell. From the wiki:

The "Well, That Sucks" Tell

I wanted to say "Dammit, dammit, dammit, dammit, DAMMIT!". I'm curious what you would have thought of me.

so you don't think the "Well, that sucks"-tell is a scum tell?
Why would you say "Dammit"? Wasn't the night favorable to us?

viewtopic.php?p=2535862#p2535862

lol. game mix for the win.

WHERE DID I SAY TAZARO IS TOWN?

Right here.

the thing is, I know him (a little) and know his play style. and I know that he behaves that way when he is town (I never played with him when he was scum), so I thought lynching him was the wrong play.

wrong! in that post I just say that I saw him behave like that when he is town. but I also state that I never saw him play as scum and therefore have no comparison. as I already said often enough, I couldn't get a read on Taz. I NEVER SAID THAT I THOUGH HIM TO BE TOWN.

[Tasky] was really strongly pushing a case, saw it fail, and then switched to the guy who was gunning for him yesterday. We are in agreement here.

huh? what the hell are talking about?

Read it again.

wait. is your "really strongly pushing a case" referred to my first Robbnva-case? if yes, we really have different opinions about what "strongly pushing a case" means.
are you referring to my second Robbnva-case? In that case, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

you just called SoW out on some ridiculous arguments, do you think he is scum because of it?

No. I don't think he made those arguments maliciously. However,

I will keep those in mind when you flip

.

right, because you already know I will flip town, right?

[Tasky]

I NEVER SAID THAT I THOUGH HIM TO BE TOWN.

No, I guess you didn't. You only said you

believed

him to be town based on meta.

no... you don't get it, right? I said that based on meta his "scum-tells" were not actual scum-tells. this is quite different from believing that he is town.

is your "really strongly pushing a case" referred to my first Robbnva-case? if yes, we really have different opinions about what "strongly pushing a case" means.

Ok, I don't know about first and second cases on people, but I do know that you insisted Robb was scum and than said your case on him was weak. This makes no sense from a townie perspective.

wrong. please show me were I insisted that robb was scum BEFORE calling my case weak!

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

SoW:

DON'T EVEN TRY TO IGNORE MY QUESTIONS IN POST 448

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Narsis is town. we are NOT lynching him.
I have to reread jimfinn and the case on him better, don't really have an opinion on that right now.

[Tasky]

Narsis is town. we are NOT lynching him.

any particular reason why? not that i dont mind the support of course, but it'd be nice to know why you are calling me town.

I have my good reasons

[Tasky]

I will get to your questions by Tuesday.

can't wait to hear your answers

Are your good reasons including that he is a PR for mafia?

explain this part better, please. I don't understand what you mean.

I am not going to just allow you to force us to NOT lynch a very scummy acting player. If he flips scum you will die.

lol. are you trying to threaten me?

[Tasky]

SoW: this post is really scummy. totally scummy. awfully scummy.

Yes, I was attacking you. I still think you KNEW that TAZ was TOWN. And being so strong against voting him was your attempt to appear pro-town. You talked about wanting him dead for being UNREADABLE, but than could hardly bring yourself to vote for him.

You did not want to be on a wagon who killed a TOWNIE that you could possibly get town to kill latter in the game for his terrible play. You new he was an easy target for later, cannon fatter, so to speak.

lol. stop posting bullshit. you know you are misrepresenting me. I know you understood what I said, yet you keep repeating the same things over and over again.
I WANTED TAZARO VIGGED, NOT LYNCHED. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO THINGS.
additionally the bolded part just doesn't make any sense at all.
so you are saying I wanted a wagon to kill Tazaro with me not on it, so I could have him killed later? WTF?
If I'd wanted a Tazaro mislynch I would have just voted him.

Again, I am not following Robbnva. Though, you have not even posed a convincing case at all. I just saw those rules, and agreed with the rule 4 applying to you. And, because he is the source, I know he would be all up in your grill for violating his rule. But, he is not here to play anymore, so it is neither here nor there for me.

why would you care what Robbnva WOULD have done if he WERE here. ROBBNVA ISN'T HERE (By the way

Mod

, could you replace him?). and HE IS SCUM

I do not think you are town. But, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt for now. I posted my explanation inpost 426.

there is no thing as benefit of the doubt. if you don't think I am town, you attack me. period.

For analysis sake, I will agree Nacho is town, along with Espeonage.

oh. right. Assumption SoW is scum. WOW, I caught scum!! /sarcasm off
it's easy to make assumptions for "analysis sake" and then get "correct" reads.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me. But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement. But, I assure you, I am town. And, my lynch will not profit a town victory.

whining already? WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO ME LIKE I AM TOWN? weren't you suspicious of me just a moment ago?
you know you failed with discrediting me, so now you try to buddy up to me. LOL.
NOBODY EVER TALKED ABOUT LYNCHING YOU.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Scumteam:
Robbnva (85%)
SoW (90%)
ZeroFang (60% if Robbnva flips scum, 50% otherwise)

SoW: you scum level officially passed Robbnva's

ARM OF SUSPICION: Shepherd_of_Wolves

the only reason I prefer lynching Robbnva over SoW right now is that SoW posts a lot. If we let him live today, he HAS to keep up his posting if he doesn't want to give up and will therefore give us much more information than Robbnva.

PS: SoW, I want you to do a post by post breakdown on ZeroFang. DO NOT keep vague.

[Tasky]

EBWOP: damn. faillink. well, you all know which post is meant.

[Tasky]

are there any news about this game?

[Tasky]

Sorry for the delay -- was out of town yesterday.

Yes, you all got the majority (6 players want to keep going), but I've not heard from Stef either by PM or email, so I don't have a set-up to pass on to a new moderator, should I be able to find one. I was frankly hoping that, since this is a very young game, most players would be willing to let it go should Stef flake...with full text of role PMs, a new mod MIGHT be able to figure things out, but in a game called "Lie to Me" I think there's a very real likelihood that there's moderator information not implicit in the provided player text.

Thoughts? Ideas?

I think we should at least try.
shall we send you our role-PM's? maybe you (ore some new mod) can figure the setup out. and worst case scenario we get a new interpretation of the setup, should be fun anyway.

[Tasky]

thanks very much.

[Tasky]

Narsis, why are you not voting? That seems odd.

with "odd" do you mean "scummy" ?

[Tasky]

NACHO!! WTF IS GOING ON HERE?
I WANT A TOTAL FULL CLAIM, NOW.
YOU TOLD US YOU HAD A DAYKILL, IT TURNED OUT IT DIDN'T WORK.

WHY?

[Tasky]

1) Scum failed to send an NK
2) The scum doing the kill got roleblocked
3) Espy got JKed

you forgot an option there.
4) Espeonage is scum


I'm still getting town vibes from Narsis.
but I am confused.
have to reread.

[Tasky]

Espeonage: Why did you protect Zero Fang?

[Tasky]

VOTE: Shepherd_of_Wolves

[Tasky]

oh, I almost forgot.
Esp, since you already claimed your role-power, would there be any problem telling us some things?
1. your role-name...
2.

Lie Detecter is obviously a mechanic of the game. From my role I think I can assume that everyone who has a role in the lightman group will have this mechanic tied to their role in some way or another.

what do you mean with this.

[Tasky]

why do you think there is such thing as a NK for lie detection immunity trade for scum?

[Tasky]

more SoW votes, please

nacho, stop that stupid voting please.

[Tasky]

I know Narsis will vote me. He is on the verge now. So, that forces me to claim. I cannot afford to have Nacho or Espeonage to vote without a claim. I think Narsis will hammer.

CLAIM

My name

: Agent Ben Reynolds.

My role

: Macho Lie Detector Vig.

Action

: Lie detection kill every Night.

Win Condition

: Threats to town eliminated.

Essentially, I am restricted to only Vig. Killing liars. I have to submit a post by a player. If the player is telling the truth, he lives. If he is lying, he dies.

Night 1 target

: Robbnva

Night 2 target

: Tasky

does macho mean you can't be protected?

this is a awfully strong role. sorta only-mafia-killing-vig.
I definitely do not want to lynch you. if you are lying, we will soon find out.
UNVOTE: <------ everybody do this.
why did you choose those targets?

[Tasky]

ok, thank you.
now please tell me why you have chosen those targets.

[Tasky]

CLAIM

God dammit.

UNVOTE: SoW

yes, you are the next on my scumlist.

VOTE: ZeroFang

PS: should I hypothetically die tonight and flip cop, you should know that I have a guilty on ZeroFang.
PPS: SoW, sorry for making you claim.

[Tasky]

Is there any reason to let Narsis live? Really.

the fact that both ZeroFang and Tasky can't be telling the truth?

how's that?


also. there is something (all of) you overlooked and that I'll have to tell you. But I won't for now. I will later, but hopefully you'll find out.

PS: should I hypothetically die tonight and flip cop, you should know that I have a guilty on ZeroFang.

That's impossible unless I'm miller, which I really doubt. I'd also like to point out to you that we have a doctor who detects lies and a vig who detects lies. You cop claim is inconsistent with the flavor, the alignment, and the balance of power between alignments. Gentlemen, we have found a scum.

VOTE: Tasky

lol.


ZeroFang, you better claim. And your claim better be DAMN GOOD.

IMPORTANT:

Nobody even try to hammer (yes, I know he is not at L-1, but he will be shortly hopefully) ZeroFang until I get back and post again!


Does somebody think there is a possibility that I am insane?


we are allowed to use cryptography in this game, I asked Stef (@mod, if you want I can forward you his PM in which he said so). Is there someone who knows a method by which SoW can communicate to me and only to me his next night-kill-target (as soon as you decide on it)? It is vital that someone knows that target, since it would really be bad if SoW dies tonight and the information about who he targeted was lost (since it can potentially clear one player). On the other side we do not want to let scum know the target, do we?

[Tasky]

ok. it's time to do this.
I am not a cop. in fact, my claim was purely hypothetical.

even if there is a villain who can somehow get lie protection, you can still clear a townie. you are right about the roleblocker, of course.
But, don't forget that more information for the town is always better.

there are a lot of asymmetric cryptographic algorithms like RSA, the problem is I can't find a tool online which is simple to use and does not require downloads.

unvote

for now. have to check what happened and to reread eventually.

[Tasky]

I was sure ZeroFang was scum. I wanted to see his reactions.
unluckily, his reactions were a little pro-town. therefore I have to rethink stuff

Interesting.

Tasky, if you weren't a cop, why did you want Zero to claim? What would you have done if he claimed a PR? What would you have done if he claimed VT?

Actually I don't think there are many PR's left, considering we have 2 very strong PR's already (a vig-cop and an upgraded doc).
The fact that he hints at being a PR, in fact is the only thing in his reactions that is scummy.

_*_**_*__*_*_*_**_*_*_*_*__*

@

Narsis

, you claimed to be part of the Lightman group early. Since I am Eli Loker, I assume you are Ria Torres (since Cal Lightman is dead and Espeonage is Gillian Foster). Is that correct?
N.B.: I am not asking for your role, just your role name.

[Tasky]

Tasky is clear.
Espeonage is clear.
Nachomamma is clear.
ZeroFang is most likely clear.
I am clear.

Not clear are
Narsis
Locke Lamora
AntiHero

why do you assume ZeroFang is clear?

[Tasky]

ok. Narsis' reaction was exactly as I expected, I am now quite sure he is town.
I am actually Ria Torres

well. that leaves Antihero, ZeroFang and Locke.

Antihero is the worst there.
so:
UNVOTE: VOTE: Antihero

[Tasky]

and this one is going to be today's lynch.

[Tasky]

also, Locke, please post "I am aligned with the town." isolated in a new post with nothing else in it (and without the quotes of course).

[Tasky]

ok. Narsis' reaction was exactly as I expected, I am now quite sure he is town.
I am actually Ria Torres

well. that leaves Antihero, ZeroFang and Locke.

Antihero is the worst there.
so:
UNVOTE: VOTE: Antihero

Why am I the worst?

You going to jerk us around some more?

UNVOTE:

lol. it's fun, isn't it?
why aren't you voting ZeroFang/Locke?
if you truly were town, you would know that both of them are scum and vote one of them right away. What's holding you back?

[Tasky]

Yay for triple posting!

if you truly were town, you would know that both of them are scum and vote one of them right away. What's holding you back?

You're assuming I think you're clear. And that's not true.

why aren't you voting me then?

[Tasky]

also, Locke, please post "I am aligned with the town." isolated in a new post with nothing else in it (and without the quotes of course).

ummmm... tasky, you need to go back to Days 1 and 2 and tell everyone how I'm scum. I curious to see this.

why are you quoting that post?

[Tasky]

And I'm also waiting for the latest lie to come out of you.

lol. this is called "Lie to Me", isn't it?

PS: triple posting rulez.

[Tasky]

@Tasky: that is a poor excuse for a lie.

it was a joke.
It should be clear why I made that gambit. it could be that you said "yes, you are right, I am Ria Torres". In that case I would have known that you are scum.
I had a town read on you earlier, and now I have solidified it. Of course I can never be totally sure, but I think it is reasonable to assume you are town until something major happens and forces me to change my mind.

@696: Not being clear =/= scum

What's your point?
I don't understant you.

@697: I wanted to make sure you saw it, and don't try to weasle your way out of this.

what are you talking about?

Thinking about it, why is Narsis clear, even if he is telling the truth about being Eli?

huh? If he is telling the truth about being Eli, that means he is Eli, and since Eli is good, he is town. Simple deduction.
Of course we do not know for sure whether Narsis really

is

Eli, but if he is, I see no reason he shouldn't be town.

[Tasky]

I think it would be a good idea if the four unconfirmed players (i.e. ZeroFang, Antihero, Locke, Narsis) fullclaimed. discuss.

[Tasky]

@mod

could we get a deadline extension?
I'd like to have the time to reread properly.

[Tasky]

since deadline is approaching, we need a lynch.
even if I do not totally agree, I am going to follow SoW and lynch Locke.

every townie, VOTE LOCKE. we cannot afford a no-lynch!


UNVOTE: VOTE: Locke Lamora

[Tasky]

I'm Agent Dupree, a VT. I guess it's better that I get lynched than a town PR, but you'd all better hope that these assumptions you're making are correct, otherwise scum are taking you for a ride.

Nacho has at least verified that we certainly don't have 4 completely confirmed townies, so at least I'm not missing anything.

My main reasons for SoW being scum:

First of all, he pretty much ignores Jimfinn throughout D1. He obviously tunnels heavily on Tazaro and goes after Tasky too, but thoroughly neglects Jimfinn. One of his first remarks actually directed at Jim is this:

jimfin and Narsis you need to speak up more. This is ridiculous that you would say so little and than hide behind town. Make your points. I asked several questions that I want answered by you both.

Looks to me more like a scumbuddy trying to encourage his partner into contributing than it does a townie putting pressure on. Another comment in this vein concerns the alignment claim:

Kill jimfinn or zerofang if they do not make their alignment claim. We should not allow them get away without it. I would include maddie, but She just needs to be replaced.

Jimfinn and zerofang, why have you not made your alignment claim? One of you will die for that neglect if I have anything to do with it.

Again, looks more like prodding a buddy into providing necessary content. In the next post, SoW seems to give up on this stance and suggest that Jim should be Nacho's vig target for not claiming his alignment. Still, however, Jim does not make it anywhere near SoW's scumlist.

Finally, in ISO 65, SoW decides that Jim could actually be scum:

Jimfinn explain your fence sitting and deliberate RVS, yet not RVS, vote on TASKY. I am starting to think you are scum. And, I would still not be surprised if Tasky was one partner.

The context of this comment is telling: Antihero has already made his case and Jim and voted. I put the second vote on Jim's wagon and ZeroFang echoed many of Anti's points when adding the third. SoW posts just after this when Jim has already been lined up as clearly the most likely lynch - when, for the first time, he makes the above comment that Jim could be scum. He also comments on something that Jim did a very long time ago but that he ignored throughout D1.

Next up, SoW ISOs Narsis and then Jim. He places a vote on Narsis at the end of that ISO, then concludes his Jim ISO in post 78 by saying that he is also scum. I think it's very telling that SoW continues to push Narsis over Jim throughout the day, yet even while he's conducting his Narsis ISO, he acts like Jim is already confirmed scum. For instance, he states that Narsis' "opportunistic scum" comment on Jim is distancing. That's an awfully quick turnaround in thinking, considering he didn't call Jim scummy once in his first 65 posts.

In short, I think SoW's behaviour towards Jim is that of a scumbuddy who initially tries to coax Jim into contributing and acting more pro-town, and when Jim is finally threatened with the lynch, SoW does a 180 and guns hard for Jim with his ISO but still tries to get Narsis lynched over him.

I'm aware that it's probably going to be a bit late to change everyone's mind, but once I flip town I urge everyone to consider all this. I'm also getting really bad vibes from SoW trying to throw in an excuse early for why he won't get NKed. I don't know anything about the show, but I think his claim could easily be cover for a scum kill.

the problem is, I agree with your case on SoW, I really felt the same way and that was the reason I voted for him earlier. The problem is that his claim is quite believable.
Also SoW, I think you should choose your NK target randomly and not tell us, since there is a possibilty of mafia having roles that can interfere with your role. (e.g. a mafia doc.)

also, unluckily I now think you are town. The problem is that if I unvote now, we are not getting a lynch. Since I cannot trust you totally even if I get town vibes off you right now, lynching you is better than no lynch.

[Tasky]

So, your role state every one gets a safe claim? Why would the MOD tell YOU that every one aside from you has a safe claim? Why would any one player be told those things about ALL other players?

my role says i have a flavour safe nameclaim. i asked Stef why i would have one since i'm not mafia and he said everyone has the ability to do so.

My role PM says almost the same thing. Now I'm almost 100% positive Narsis is town.

So, Tasky, you have narrowed down your suspects to AntiHero and ZeroFang. Please explain better.

Well, I have seen 1000 reasons to believe that Narsis is town, and I practically sealed that issue with that last fakeclaim thing.
with Locke it is more a feeling than anything else. We have to lynch him today, that's the problem.

I hope someone hammers soon, since deadline is approaching. We really can't afford a No-Lynch

[Tasky]

Job applications contain an average of 4 lies each.

That sounds too low.

Well, with a few hours to deadline, this seems like the only option.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Locke Lamora

yeah yeah, scum. we know you like to lynch a townie.



DAMN YOU

S

O

W

.
I hope we still win this.

[Tasky]

well. Anti is definitely scum then. lynch lynch lynch.

VOTE: Antihero

[Tasky]

From towniest to scummiest:

Tasky
SoW

ZeroFang

Narsis

Nacho

Antihero

I really don't get what's your problem here.

I am town
Sow is town, I cleared him tonight with my night action
ZeroFang

should

be town, SoW cleared him (unless he is some sort of detection-immune guy.)
Narsis was not cleared by anyone, but his play made me think he is town. so I'd call him semi-cleared
Nacho was not cleared by anyone, but his Daykill gambit was a protown thing to do.
Antihero has absolutely nothing speaking for him.

by elimination, I think we can be almost cerain Antihero is scum.
For the second scum I think Nacho is the most likely, but I am not sure.

I would propose following breaking strategy:
assumptions: SoW is town, Narsis is town.
We lynch Antihero today. And Nacho posts a lie (like "I am Ria Torres.").
then going into night there are Nacho, Narsis, ZeroFang, Sow and me left.
tonight, SoW targets Nacho

using the lie

!
If Nacho dies, and is scum, we win.
If Nacho dies and is town, we lynch ZeroFang and win.
If Nacho doesn't die, that means he is some sort of perfect lying godfather, thus we know he is scum. We lynch him and win.

[Tasky]

I would propose following breaking strategy:
assumptions: SoW is town, Narsis is town.
We lynch Antihero today. And Nacho posts a lie (like "I am Ria Torres.").
then going into night there are Nacho, Narsis, ZeroFang, Sow and me left.
tonight, SoW targets Nacho using the lie!
If Nacho dies, and is scum, we win.
If Nacho dies and is town, we lynch ZeroFang and win.
If Nacho doesn't die, that means he is some sort of perfect lying godfather, thus we know he is scum. We lynch him and win.

Um... I don't know why we would ever do this. The mafia DO have a nightkill, as we've seen. So SoW shoots me using the lie, then mafia gets a nightkill and win.

wrong:

Nacho, ZeroFang, Narsis, SoW, Tasky left.
assume mafia kills SoW.
case 1: Nacho lives, then he is scum and there are ZeroFang, Narsis and me to lynch him
case 2: Nacho dies and was town, then Zero is scum and there are Narsis and me to lynch him.
case 3: Nacho dies and was scum, we won.

the only possible ways for this breaking strategy to fail are:
1. Sow is scum. Impossible because my role clears him.
2. Narsis is scum.
3. Antihero is town AND Nacho is a perfect lying mafia. this however is almost impossible since ZeroFang would have to be a perfect lying mafia too (since he survived SoW's kill) and I really do not think that that's possible


Uh, I might as well

claim

my role now: I am Ria Torres, a one shot tracker. I tracked SoW last night because I needed to make sure he was telling the truth. I tracked him to ZeroFang indeed. So he is clear.

Since it now all depends on whether Narsis is town or not, I think a mass-fullclaim is appropriate, Narsis start, then popcorn.

PS: to confirm my role, look in this post.

*__**_*_*_*__*_*_*_*_**__**_*_*_*_*_

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*__*_*_*_*_**_*_

_*_*_*_**_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*__*_*_*_*_**__**_*__*_**__**__**__**_*__**_

take this. look only at the bolded part (you may note a space after the first bolded part, I just had to fill up the line) and delete every second symbol. then translate back using morse code where * is short and _ is long.

[Tasky]

@SoW:

voting Nacho is not an option here. either you believe Narsis is town and then you follow my breaking strategy (or tell me where it fails) of you believe Narsis is not town and then you vote him.

you town out there, READ MY DAMN BREAKING STRATEGY! comment on it!

[Tasky]

EBWOP: should be "or you believe".

[Tasky]

1. YOU ALL CLAIM

NOW

there is absolutely no reason right now to withhold that information since we do not need any more PR's to win so outing PR's will not harm us. But claims can help us to lynch better
2. SoW: what if Zero is a mafia godfather?
3. everybody please post "I am Ben Reynolds". We need to have a lie at disposal from you all. Maybe we won't use it, but it will not harm and we should force it now when we can still force it, so should SoW think he needs it tonight (or a tomorrow night) he can use it.

[Tasky]

I am Ben Reynolds.

[Tasky]

SoW, you should kill Nacho with a lie. so if he doesn't die we know he has to be scum.


also, I do not believe that Espeonage's "clears" are reliable.

[Tasky]

DAMN!... SoW, why didn't you follow my strategy? It was so obvious that Narsis was town.