Mini 1044: Lie to Me Mafia - Game Over

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

/confirm. Will post more no later than Tuesday. But, I will try before than. The Holiday is affecting me slightly.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Espeonage, start by posting the answer to your questions about yourself. And then we can have that to start with at least.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Is there a co-mod? Do we need to contact the list Mod? I do not even know what is happening. But, I think day 1 has started by default. We have 90 % confirmed. Maybe we should vote. Once we have a majority vote than we the town decide it is day one with or without the Mod. Than we give him 72 hours to come back.

Vote: DAY 1 starts

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

MOD

Studies show that people are 44% more likely to lie when writing emails than when writing by hand.

It is now

Day 1

, you may begin your voting, chatting and any other tricks you might possess.

With 12 alive it takes 12 to lynch.

Deadline is on September 19'th.

I will start looking for a replacement for ghostwriter since he has not picked up his role PM yet.

P.S. Sorry for keeping you waiting. Once the account got inactive it was out of my hands so I could just wait and read. Thanks for being so patient! Also, I will be looking for a new back-up mod since the current one has unfortunately disappeared.

I find this inconsistent with you rule that states

3.) Once a majority is reached, that person is lynched.

Do we need 12 to lynch. That is more than a majority. It is a complete agreement. The lynchie choice will refuse his own lynch.

That was an error of mine. Thank you for pointing it out, it is now fixed

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Timezone: MTN
Experience: Yes.
Fave Role: The ones I design as a mod.
Playstyle in a nutshell: Busy College student. Lighthearted, Serious, and Clever.
Are you familiar with the theme? To a degree. But, I will not expose that degree.
Fave Alignment or Role: (I know this isn't a upick but it is still an important question for when we need to start looking at motives for actions.) I will ignore the second, as I prefer my answer to the first.

Also disclaimer: I changed my avvie independently to this game. I didn't find out about this game until about two days after I changed my avvie.

This last statement is hardly believable. Post an answer to your own Questions please.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

FOS: Robbnva

Your GIF image deceptively places a lego piece in a tetras build. And, the lines do not disappear when the row is complete.

Espeonage

: Treestump sounds like a useless role. Do you like to be useless?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky

, are you aligned with town in this game? Will you have a favorite experience, or an unfavorite experience?

I think we should vote players for

intra

-game reasons, and not

inter

-game reasons. It does not matter what role they played in another game. It only matters what role they play in this game.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

The 5 questions are addressed to Tasky, but anyone can also respond.

Tasky

, are you aligned with town in this game? Will you have a favorite experience, or an unfavorite experience?

yeah, I'm town-aligned... don't understand the second part of the question though

I think we should vote players for

intra

-game reasons, and not

inter

-game reasons. It does not matter what role they played in another game. It only matters what role they play in this game.

well... it's RVS man, you vote for whatever reason you want...
UNVOTE: VOTE: Shepherd_of_Wolves because 1+2=3

Nice! Another RV for "whatever reason you want..." I assume, the dot dot dot, means you can

fabricate

"whatever reason you

want

..." I am honestly okay with what ever vote you cast at this point. As it cannot yet lead to an incorrect lynch. But, I will have my eye on you to see if you continue to fabricate "whatever reason you want..."

(1) What are your rules for defining RVS?
(2) What do you call the stage after RVS?
(3) What are your rules that define the next Stage?

The second part of my question is related to the first part.

Fave Alignment: TOWN

You stated TOWN was your Favorite alignment. So, I was asking a semi-redundant question. If it is your favorite experience to be town aligned, and if you are town aligned, I suspect you would answer in the affirmative.

(4) How many times have you played mafia alignment?
(5) What makes it less favorable to you than playing town alignment?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I disagree that it was a rolefish, but don't find AntiHero scummy or reaching for him to think that
Note: Taz is claiming town LOL but I don't like his distancing or his wording that his favorite "role" has nothing to do with this game, rather than his favorite "alignment"

Alright, so the thing I was talking about before that no one has seemed to question me on has be answered, but I will pose the question in thread for the mod to answer to you guys:
Due to the flavor one might assume the game has a "lie detector" (I'm not trying to trick you into sayin whether or not there is). Due to rule 15a I wanted to check if suggesting the idea that everyone posts "I am not mafia" in the thread so that a potential lie detector becomes virtually a cop is breakin the game. Again, I'm not looking for any role info, I'm just looking for a "yes this idea is acceptable" or a "no, this ideacould potentially break the game". Thanks!

You are really focused on the term "rolefish".

(1) What qualifies as role fishing?
(2) What details made you think of this

specific

question?
(3) What details made you think that everyone should make the same statement?
(4) Why do you assume that such a mechanism of "lie detector" would effectively respond to such a statement by each player?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

CryMeARiver

I was not indicating that you used the term repeatedly. I was stating that the three sentences I left in your quoted text are replete with focusing on outing roles.

But, with your answer, I wonder what you define as "unnecessary knowledge".

I looked up the "Lie Detector" role on the wiki. I had never played a game with it. So, I did not know it was a defined role.

Are you assuming there is not a cop?

VOTE:

Tasky

I think his post, #71 was a way to hide his statement. Because if the possible "lie detector" role is in the game, than he made his statement null and void within a post that is full of claims that contradict each other. The post detection may be weighted on the whole post, and not just an isolated statement within the post. If we make verifiable statements to be detected, I think they need to be isolate the statements like antihero.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I am aligned with the town.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I want to state that I think alignment claim is far different than role claiming. Alignment fishing is what town primarily does. Role fishing is what mafia primarly do.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Zerofang, you plagiarizer :p

(1) What are your rules for defining RVS?

What significance does this question have? What information about people's alignments do you hope to gain from the answer to this question?

(2) What do you call the stage after RVS?

Why do you care!?

(3) What are your rules that define the next Stage?

You know, all the answers to these questions do is clutter up the discussion.

(4) How many times have you played mafia alignment?

Finally, a question that might have scumhunting meta significance. A few.

(5) What makes it less favorable to you than playing town alignment?

I was just trying to get discussion going with the whole mini analysis of Tasky's answer; this question will go nowhere.

That Tasky vote is aweful.

As I stated, those questions were specifically for Tasky. Others were welcome to answer too. But, his excuse was that "anything goes" in RVS. So, I wanted his explanation for what happens after RVS for him. What is is method after RVS? Will he hold to his idea that he can make anything up he wants. That is what makes these questions significant. What is his game theory?

Question 5 may very well go somewhere. If he is enjoying the fact that he is currently mafia (if that is his current role), than it will let us see more of his game play. Is he squeamish about how honest he is? Is he good at lying? So on.

Let's take a look at SOW's last few posts. Right after my Tasky vote:

Tasky, are you aligned with town in this game? Will you have a favorite experience, or an unfavorite experience?

I think we should vote players for intra-game reasons, and not inter-game reasons. It does not matter what role they played in another game. It only matters what role they play in this game.

What do you mean by a "favorite experience"?
Stating the obvious is a mild scumtell, you know.

What is the obvious? Tasky was claiming inter-game reasons. I just responded to him by saying that was not valid. It did not appear obvious to him.

I explained what I meant by "favorite experience" in post #67 at the bottom. But, maybe you did not read it, when you extracted the questions out.

Nice! Another RV for "whatever reason you want..." I assume, the dot dot dot, means you can fabricate "whatever reason you want..." I am honestly okay with what ever vote you cast at this point. As it cannot yet lead to an incorrect lynch. But, I will have my eye on you to see if you continue to fabricate "whatever reason you want..."

Is anyone else scratching their head at this paragraph?

You are really focused on the term "rolefish".

(1) What qualifies as role fishing?
(2) What details made you think of this specific question?
(3) What details made you think that everyone should make the same statement?
(4) Why do you assume that such a mechanism of "lie detector" would effectively respond to such a statement by each player?

*sigh*
Too much!

SOW, what's the reason for

your

Tasky vote?

I really wonder if you read anything I posted carefully. Right after my vote, I explain it. In post #77 I state:

I think his post, #71 was a way to hide his statement. Because if the possible "lie detector" role is in the game, than he made his statement null and void within a post that is full of claims that contradict each other. The post detection may be weighted on the whole post, and not just an isolated statement within the post. If we make verifiable statements to be detected, I think they need to be isolate the statements like antihero.

At least Tasky saw my reason. I did not say it was lynch worthy or not. I do not understand whether or not the "lie detector" role could isolate one statement or has to have the post weighed as one. Too many claims could have a possible affect as to if the statement can be read by a "lie detector". Even though I do not see this reason enough to lynch, I think it has some merit.

But, as he made an isolated claim in post #108. My reason stands resolved.

UNVOTE:

Tasky

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

VOTE:

Tazaro

First reason: I do have a problem with how Tazaro is so forceful at getting me to unvote Tasky. To be honest, I think he expected to have a

fantastic reason

for my vote. As if, this stage in the game is

amazingly clear

. And, all votes better have

perfect logic

, and must not only be good for a vote, but

good enough for him

.

Second reason: He repeatedly defends Tasky and wants to please Tasky. See his defense of tasky in post #63 and post #102

See his pleasing Tasky in post #112 and post #103 where he attempts to say Tasky is not the worthy "lynch candidate".

Third reason: He claims that scum must be on Tasky Wagon. He conveniently is not on the Wagon. Hinting that he is not scum.

Forth reason: When he says there is "lynch" on his wagon, he had to clarify that he meant "scum". But, I see this as a possible scum tell. He slipped and did not say "scum". But, "lynch", as if some one he mentally thought could be framed for a "lynch". He reenforced this by saying "the right lynch candidate". He is starting his attempt to "seem reasonable".

Fifth reason:
He is doing exactly what he said he would do as scum.

o As town, I may vote hop unless my mind is oriented properly and am very paranoid at times, and as scum I tend to vote hop less and probably tunnel.
o I like to be scum because I don't have to worry about scumhunting, I just have to find a place to park my vote and try to seem reasonable.

He really has not attempted to scum hunt. He has only tried to "seem reasonable". And, he has not vote hopped much (like he said would happen as town). He is more tunneling (like he said would happen as scum).

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Too many claims could have a possible affect as to if the statement can be read by a "lie detector".

Why do you care so much about the lie detector, as long as you don't lie, right?

I have made my statement. I have claimed my alignment. I have no worries about lying. The town wants the lie detector(s) to be effective. My interpretation was that his statement may not have allowed the lie detector role to be effective. That was my concern.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I am starting to see that Tasky is in on Tazaro connection. Why do you both defend each other? Why do you care so much about each other?

Tasky, why is Robbnva's "acceptable" reasons null-tell? If it is "acceptable", would that not mean you should consider it? Thus, making it of value, and not null. Explain yourself.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Wow! Today was eventful.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Response to Nachonmamma8

to what extent should we defend our townreads?

That is a good question. I do not defend town reads too much. I generally attack scum reads. But, If you are going to defend someone, I think it should have stated reasons. Your defense of another player needs to be very clear. If it is not clear, it is suspect.

Should we defend them against their first attacker?

It is not about who their attacker is. Or, when their attack comes. To defend a town read, only is viable based on reporting and analyzing the data that gives you the read. Defend a town read when you have honest reasons to point out stating they are town.

Should we defend them at L-2, right before they're forced to claim?

Town will focus on reasons. Defending them when you think it is appropriate, but before they are in real danger. Only when a viable defense is supported by reason. But, allowing them to be attacked for a period can help identify scum. If scum feels they are confirmed town, then they are more likely to avoid the attack. If scum feel they are neutral in the eyes of town, and they can twist their image, then scum may pursue it. Let the town interact for a while before defending them. Only for the purpose to identify scum who are looking for a "lynch candidate".

Should we defend them at all?

If we have good reason, town should defend each other. The purpose is to kill scum. Just standing idle on a strong town read, is not favorable to a town win. But, any defense should be supported by reason.

ISO 12 has you unvoting Tasky. ISO 13 has you voting Tazaro and noting a possible Tasky-Tazaro connection. Why do you continue to attack someone you just unvoted?

I still think he is scum. Actually more so now than before. But, as I stated, the reason to unvote him was that my vote reason was resolved. So, I unvoted for that resolution. But, the Tasky and Tazaro connection is growing thicker. My top three suspects are Tazaro, Tasky, and AntiHero. I would not at all be surprised if all flipped scum. They are certainly all highly interactive with each other.

Is skimming the game a scumtell?

What is skimming? Are you saying just hitting surface chatter, and not really analyzing players? I think that skimming the thread is a matter of age, time, and interest. Scum can skim, and have shallow posts. But, so can town. Scum can also be very detailed and involved. I think it is a matter of the real person behind the character more than the character they represent. It is mostly a matter of what is actually said, and what interactions are present that are the strongest scumtells. A skimmer is just a harder read.

Which would make you more confident of a Tasky-Tazaro scumteam? A Tasky scumflip, or a Tazaro scumflip?

Lynching or Killing Tasky would make me most confident. Because Tazaro appears more scum. So, if Tasky flipped, then scum, it would seal the deal on Tazaro for me. But, If Tazaro flipped scum, I would have to evaluate more on Tasky to see. I think Tazaro is scum. Tasky is second on my list. But, If you are asking who I think you should kill, I would say Tazaro. Better to kill the most suspect player, and let the post reads develop more on the less scummy player.

Why did you choose to FoS Robbnva in the biginning of the game as opposed to vote him?

I had no real reason to vote for him. It was my teasing jab. A vote on non-real reason, may not really produce any information in the game. I just had not decided who I wanted to place my first vote on. And, I was okay waiting until I saw what something that I wanted to use to place a vote.

Do you not like the RVS? If not, why didn't you say so?

I do not care one way or another about the RVS. I post content regularly. I feel the best way to encourage others to post is to question them, and state reasons you have to suspect or vote them. RVS has little use to me. It is just a ritual, some times I play and some times I do not. I feel no need to say anything about the ritual, as some means to justify my play. The thing that I find important is to just be involved.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

ZeroFang, I switched my vote

once

from Tasky to Tazaro. Not "a bit". That implies more than once. And, I numerated my reasons for both unvoting and placing my new vote. If my reasons are flawed, point that out. If not, consider what they imply.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tazaro, Why have you ignored my case on you? Are my reasons implying the correct interpretation of your character?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Here is a link to my reasons for voting Tazaro for anyone desiring to review. But, specifically for Tazaro to respond too.

Post #128

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I have reread Tazaro in ISO. All references are ISO of Tazaro. Here is my case on him.

(A) Post 13 he states he can

Guarantee

that scum is on the TASKY wagon. Well, the only players who can guarantee any alignment are mafia. He could only know one is on, if he is partners with them. Related, to this post is 14. It is an EBWOP. I do not like this phrase he uses, " Either way you look at it". This is said with conviction. Again, as though he really knows. And, you better listen to him.

But, does he explain any reason for this knowledge? NO.

It is a scumtell to have unreasoned confidence. He deliberately wants to protect TASKY, without stated cause. That is highly indicative of secret connection unknown to town.

(B) Post 7 He loves being scum so he can be devious. He describes what should be expected from HIM as "town", and as "scum". But, in post 23 and 24 he dismisses the standarded he set up by stating: he is bad at playing and he is a "calmer". He set up his explanation within this game by his answers in post 7. So, for him to have a change in heart when

under scrutiny

is very convenient. He is denying that he is following the pattern about his play that he gave us.

Every time a player claims, to be a bad player as a defense, it is scummy. Every time, I have seen it used, it really means that they are bad at "acting town". So, he has played his scum role poorly, and now he knows he is in jeopardy and he has jeopardized TASKY too. Two mafia players caught early in the game.

(C) In post 24 he states he is not jumping to every scumtell he perceives. This is more likely due to the fact he is not really "looking" for scumtells, than to due to being a "calm town" player. He was not "calm" when I voted for TASKY. In fact he was furious. He said:

"

Either way you look at it

, SOW either played a crummy vote on Tasky due to being scum or needs to be pressured to take it off of Tasky". That is not calm. He wants me to be pressured to UNVOTE. Not pressured to slip up in scumminess. No, that is not his focus. He wants me to UNVOTE. Why? Because he is frantic to save TASKY. He did not complain about anyone else voting for him. Just me. Why? Likely because my reason for voting struck at him. It was not RV, like others.

(D) He is looking for a place to appear "reasonable". He just does not want to draw too much attention to himself. He has not justified his vote on me. His only reason was:

*Regaining my most prolific poster title.*

What do you mean by Vague neutrality? Also, why is SoW's vote so terrible? It seems like a "you're not doing what we want so i vote you" type vote, which could feasibly be used by a town player trying to push a specific strategy.

SOW's vote IS terrible. In fact, he's my scumpick. Either way you look at it, SOW either played a crummy vote on Tasky due to being scum or

needs to be pressured to take it off of Tasky

. I for one see scumminess as a very viable possibility.

Shepherd of Wolves

Read that again, and again. Either I was A or B. I was scum, or I was needing pressure to UNVOTE.
Ridiculous! Why do I need to be pressured to UNVOTE Tasky? Why does that have anything to do with me being scummy. He makes no real case or explanation why my vote even hinted at being scummy. His primary focus was to pressure me to UNVOTE.

(E) Why does Tazaro attack my vote on TASKY as terrible? Why does he still vote me? He has no reason to be voting for me. He has not stated any reason. So, I fulfilled his desire to UNVOTE. But, he is just trying to appear "reasonable". He does not feel the need to explain his vote. In fact, he is not even trying to recruit votes onto me. Why not? It is because he is scum, only trying to appear "reasonable". He is not jumping on to ANY scumtell. He cannot find a case. That is because he is attempting to frame someone, not hunt them.

(F) He mentions or refers to TASKY in posts 12, 13, 14, 15, & 17. That represents 20% of his 24 total posts. Why the hyper-focus? Defending him. Protecting him. Accommodating him. Never questioning him.

(G) If there is a TASKY connection (which I know there is) the next thing to do is see how much attention TASKY gives TAZARO.

TASKY ISO

Tasky mentions TAZARO in posts 1, 2, 5, 10, & 11. This represents 50% of his posts. All of them Defending, supporting, and never questioning Taz.

(H) Who are the 2 people voting me. Together, no it can't be. It is TASKY and TAZARO. What a team!

(I) TASKY's first post to vote, he straight out tells the truth. TAZARO is SCUM. Tasky knows, and is attempting to "separate" himself.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

If you invalidate my claims with plausible evidence or explanation I would be willing to reevaluate my stance. But, currently, my career is to detect scum, and I feel my reasons have merit.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tazaro

(1) Why do you not address any of my points?
(2) Why were you so intent on me UNVOTING?
(3) Why was pressure to get me to UNVOTE the alternative to me being scum? As you said, He is scum OR we need to pressure him to UNVOTE.
(4) Why are you absolutely not scum hunting? You have not asked any questions. You have not laid down a case on me, were you have your vote.
(5) When can we expect that you will scum hunt?
(6) What bothers you most about my case against you?
(7) Who do you think is the highest lynch candidate for Day 1? And, specify why they should be lynched.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Everyone else

I think we should not be too hasty to lynch too soon before deadline. But, I want to hear everyones opinion.
(1) Why should we not lynch Tazaro for Day 1?
(2) Who should be lynched instead, and WHY?
(3) What do you think about TAZARO being so insistent that I needed to be pressured UNVOTE Tasky? See post #104.
(4) What do you think about the fact that TAZARO has not changed his vote, nor laid down a case against me, nor attempted to pursue other players with questions or charges?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tunneling me HARDCORE is a pretty good reason for me to keep my vote on you.

Did you notice the other six questions? Even if you do not get lynched today, this lack of response will stick out as your sore thumb Day 2. I recommend you give me some reasonable response.

I am tunneling you because you are scum. And Tasky is your partner. And, I am pretty sure Antihero is third in the group. But, you are the worthiest of the three to be lynched. Your behavior reaks of scumminess.

Answer all seven questions. If you are good at it you can reduce my pressure. But, if you do not or your answers smell bad, I will continue to hound you.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

How exactly did you criticize other TASKY votes?
And, you say that the votes need to be put to better use. What BETTER suggestions do you offer? Oh, NONE. The only use you had for my vote was to UNVOTE. How is that a better use than to vote for Tasky?

You say he had null tells, so I should not vote for him to pressure him to talk up more. Why does NULL mean innocent to you. SO INNOCENT that it justifies pressuring me to UNVOTE? Seriously, you had no better suggestion, but now you tell me that I could use an UNVOTE better than a VOTE. That makes a lot of sense for town.

Not only do you not ask questions, you do not pressure any one to talk, just to UNVOTE.

You did not say that I was a TOWN member that needed to UNVOTE. You just said, I needed to UNVOTE. I am not buying your defense.

So, why do you go from lynch candidate is definitely on TASKY to having no clue. No case. No suggestions and reasons for your suggestions.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

A better use for votes is to vote for SoW

Better than Tasky is you.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Is your only reason OMGUS because I tunnelled you? That is why you want me lynched? Save it for your night Kill. We both know you have one. But, I would like to know how my case on you is lynchable or even vote worthy. Lay it down, like a real pro-town player.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

DAMN, SHEPHERD IS SO SCUM!!

Yea! You can yell in all Caps and stomp your feet on the ground. Give me no less than 5 reasons you say that I am scum. Do not just quote Tasky. Stop being so emotional about it, and start giving logical descriptions of my behavior that lead you to any such conclusion. Your pathetic emotional outbursts do not help town see anything that is useful to them, except your lynch. In totality, it makes you look more scummy. Just OMGUS rhetoric. Seriously, get beyond that and say something meaningful.

I laid down 9 reasons why I think you are scummy in post #181. I think that you have not sufficiently addressed them. Maybe, you brushed some of them. But, your explanations made my points stronger against you. Now your OMGUS emotional feet stomping is making the whole matter worse for you.

Who ever is lynched today, if it is not you, will only make you appear worse tomorrow. If you kill me tonight, it will certainly make you look really bad. So, if you want me dead during any day phase you better actually produce some detailed logical approach. But, you can not. You are scum! My case is exposing you. And, you have nothing on me, except your OMGUS, you tunneled me and I do not like it, crap.

[side note]Even though my attack on you is strong and harsh, it is solely about your playing in this particular game. I respect you as are real person. Because of my harsh tone, I just wanted to reassure you, it is within context of this game only.[/side note]

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tacky, you have got to be freakin' kidding, right?!

What distinguishes town from mafia? I am not pushing you as the lynch of the day. I think you are scum. But, I have not laid out my case on you. I think you are scum more because of TAZARO than because of you.

But, your comments are not as golden-boy as you make them. My comment on you was to show that you interact with him, spending a lot of commentary on him. That is a reasonable sign that you are in cahoots with him. But, mostly based on everything else he said, and has done.

I think you were most likely calling it out (as a distancing method) when you voted him and called him scum. When he flips scum, it may or may not entirely reflect on you.

This statement of yours really bothers me.

"although your reasons to vote tazaro are acceptable (and therefore a null-tell)..."

I know that you think you explained it in ISO post #11. Acceptable reasons are not by default, NULL. When you say, "and THEREFORE a null-tell" you are indicating that acceptable reasons are by default NULL. On the contrary, acceptable reasons are worthy of consideration. They may lead to unraveling the play of a mafia character. But, for you to brush off an ACCEPTABLE reason as "therefore" NULL, is suspicious. But, why hint that reasons against TAZARO are NULL, when they are acceptable reasons? I think it is because you do not want acceptable reasons to be evaluated further on him. You want to brush them off of him.

TAZ ISO Post 12 is defending you. He was trying sweep away the reason with little effort. He was gesturing that you should not be considered mafia.

TAZ ISO Post 13 really is making a statement that you should be seen as the innocent one, and guilty should be found on you. He is happy to deter the steam from you more. Why is he so quick to defend you? What real reason does he have?

TAZ ISO Post 14 he uses the phrase, "either way you look at it". That phrase really bothers me. It is essentially saying, you have to see it this way. And you again are implied as the innocent one. What reason does he have to defend you? You did nothing to merit KNOWN TOWN status. He just does not want you to be the focus.

TAZ ISO Post 15 he focuses on me. He says my vote in particular is terrible. He rants and stomps his feet. Much like he is doing now about himself. He again says "either way you look at it". Attempting to force his view as the only options of seeing. And, Why the heck do I need to UNVOTE? WHY? WHY? WHY? No one else needs to be pressured to UNVOTE you. He never explained why I needed to UNVOTE. He never explained why MY VOTE needed to be in a BETTER PLACE. The only focus he had was to save your bacon.

He makes you appear scummy. ISO POST 15 is the worst possible defense of you. That is one huge mistake. This is the fourth post he defends you in. Never once stating why you are worthy of such an honor. Why should he put his neck on the line for you? You have done him little favors up to this point. Yet, he is not focusing on finding scum, ONLY ON PROTECTING YOU. That is is sole focus up to that point.

Than we have TAZ ISO Post 17. You are right, it is not much by itself. But, you make your request in post #109 for everyone to state alignment. Cry me a river first suggested the idea in post #66. You made your claim in #71, which I thought was ridiculous, and we resolved that. A few others made alignment claims. So, he had plenty of examples, suggestions, and ether floating around. But, he waited to respond to your request. This is a very miner tell. I never gave it much credence. I am just saying, it is to appease you. And, he went through the loving effort of addressing his claim to you. No one else at all cared to address it to you. It is subtle. But, it is not aloof from you.

Here are my questions for you?

(1) Why are you not bothered by the fact that he defends you without reason?
(2) Should he see you as his KNOWN town?
(3) Or, why else is he sticking his neck out for you?
(4) What 5 reasons do you think I deserve your vote?
(5) Why do you think TAZARO is innocent?
(6) Why did I need to be pressured to UNVOTE you?
(7) Why of all the people on you, was it better for me to UNVOTE rather than put the pressure on you for information?
(8) Why are you defending TAZARO so much now?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Taz, you have not sufficiently explained the necessity of pressuring me to UNVOTE. Why would a town member need to be pressured to UNVOTE another player by another town member?

On the other hand, if he were your partner in crime, it is understandable why you would demand I UNVOTE. But, if you have no behind the thread association with him within the context of this game, than you need to explain a pro-town reason for that necessitated pressure to UNVOTE.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky, my spelling was accidental. I have spelt your name right so many times, you should not be offended. But, the mistake may be fitting in any case.

You defensive statements for TAZ are minor, but present. I have stated a logical and reasonable case on that. But, my point is that your minor interactions are consistent with TAZAROs major actions. He blatantly is sticking his neck out early for you. If your posts where just about what you said, they would be less likely to indicate much. But, in connection with the behavior of TAZ, they are consistent with the assumption that you are connected.

You have 2 reasons to vote for me. Rather poor reasons too. I was not attempting to discredit you based on your behavior solely. If you happened to be town, than TAZ really drew you into his ploy. But, you have not distanced yourself from him naturally. You have allowed yourself to have minor connections. So, I identified it. I did not make them up, you two made them together. I just pointed them out.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

TAZ really did not have to answer NO without explanation. NACHOMAMMA did not say, do not give an explanation for your answer. So TAZ is revealing his knowledge.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Everyone, we really need more interaction, discussion and the like. I think it is really laggy except for Me, Tasky, & Taz. At least for the last 2 or 3 days. And, there are people who have not contributed one wit.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I am completely used to him ignoring me. I was not avoiding addressing your points more completely. I think they are evidently true. I did not catch the part were he said TASKY was NOT TOWN. We together have established enough reasons for DAY 1 to lynch him. And, to give TASKY serious consideration for DAY 2.

Now before TASKY goes pouting. If TAZARO does not show up as scum, the TASKY case is not strong enough. And, we should not lynch without dialogue within DAY 2 about the best person to die based on the than current knowledge.

Further, I think we need an UNOFFICIAL but ACCURATE count on alignment claims. I do not this everyone has claimed. I swear some people are needing to be replaced too. But, I know the mod is tracking that.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Antihero has posted 28 (11%)
CryMeARiver has posted 8 (3%)
Espeonage has posted 30 (12%)
jimfinn has posted 12 (5%)
Madie has posted 2 (2%)
Nachomamma8 has posted 21 (8%)
Narsis has posted 6 (2%)
Robbnva has posted 27 (11%)
Shepher_of_Wolves has posted 37 (15%)
Tasky has posted 18 (7%)
Tazaro has posted 39 (16%)
ZeroFang has posted 11 (4%)

The total posts including this one are 248 (100%).
1/12 is 8%.

Percentage is not the only factor of importance. More importantly is content. But, how can 2 posts contribute any content. I know that Madie has claimed V/LA, but at a certain point, he just needs to join another game, when he is finished.

ZeroFang, jimfinn, Narsis, CryMeARiver, and Madie need to play the game or get replaced. Those 5 players represent 42% of the game. And they are all contributing 12 posts or less. That is ridiculous. And too many of the players who are posting are really just being non-helpful. I can see if 1 or 2 players are lame at the game, but not 5 and more.

I have posted plenty of content for people to comment on. But, I am out numbered in my posts by Tazaro. AND, to no ones surprise, his massive quantity of posting is NON-TOWN in nature.

Who better to lynch than Tazaro? I would even welcome a DAY kill by Nachomamma on TAZARO. But, since I do not have control of that, I advocate for his lynch. For Day 1, no one deserves it more than him. I would prefer players to comment before his kill. But, TAZARO has nothing PRO-TOWN to say. So, in the end, he should die for DAY 1.

START PLAYING THE GAME EVERYONE

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I did not ask you to tunnel! I asked who is better to lynch than TAZARO. I have tunneled him, as you would say, because he is scum. And, he deserves to get the axe. When you have enough evidence, there comes a point when you have to act on that. We have great evidence to lynch him.

But, would you say you are not tunneling on jimfinn? What do you call your focus on him??

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

jimfin and Narsis you need to speak up more. This is ridiculous that you would say so little and than hide behind town. Make your points. I asked several questions that I want answered by you both.

I quote post #194 from me

Everyone else

I think we should not be too hasty to lynch too soon before deadline. But, I want to hear everyones opinion.
(1) Why should we not lynch Tazaro for Day 1?
(2) Who should be lynched instead, and WHY?
(3) What do you think about TAZARO being so insistent that I needed to be pressured UNVOTE Tasky? See post #104.
(4) What do you think about the fact that TAZARO has not changed his vote, nor laid down a case against me, nor attempted to pursue other players with questions or charges?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

That goes for everyone that is hiding, neglecting to post. Do not just post your useless posts and think it is sufficient.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Narsis, I apologize. I did not reevaluate who answered the questions. Only you and Antihero answered them. I knew it was only 2 or 3 people. Thanks for directing to them. I just feel that several people, almost half the game is saying nothing to pointless stuff.

And you have not posted much. And, you content has been little. So, I thought I would encourage a direction for discussion. Thanks for your response. I hope that you continue to play forward.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Decisions after a few ISO's: Taz is town, SoW is leaning town, Tasky is null, Zero is leaning scum, where is Espe? Does Maddie even exist?
VOTE: Zero

Give us 5 or more reasons TAZARO is town. To make that statement without reason is ridiculous. What 5 reasons specifically makes him a verified town to you?

What 5 or more reasons is ZERO scum? Your emotional response is not sufficient.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Seriously, my jimmfin vote was a joke post.
Seriously, ZeroFang was one of my scum picks; I agree with CryMeARicer and second this motion:

Unvote

Vote: ZeroFang

Is this your way to appear to follow your town claim. You still are scum. And you still need to die day 1.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well jimfinn,

What are 5 reasons you are still voting for TASKY?

List 5 reasons you think one person is scum between the three of us.

What questions do you have for TASKY?

Why should town not lynch you for Day 1 or day 2?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

ZERO FANG needs to be replaced. He has not posted in 5 DAYS.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Nachomamma you blasted us with lots of questions.

What are you responses and reactions to our answers?

Who are you planning to kill?

Technically, we have 4 Days until Deadline. Do you think it should be extended because 5 players are useless?

Give us 5 reasons you still vote for Espeonage.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Maddie has not posted in 8 days. NO V/LA should be acceptable for that long.

When is she due back? I think she should be replaced.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Maddie has not posted in 8 days. NO V/LA should be acceptable for that long.

When is she due back? I think she should be replaced.

Quit with the self-righteousness, please. 12 pages is not an unmanageable catch-up length.

What the heck are you talking about? I am not saying anything about catching up. I am saying how much longer are we going to have to wait. We have no idea of a time frame. So, how long should we wait. Your name calling is just pathetic.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

ZERO FANG needs to be replaced. He has not posted in 5 DAYS.

Or prodded. Or I could suddenly get very, very active since my schedule freed up. I had no idea I let this game go this long. There are so many things I need to address it's not even funny.

Welcome back. I am fine with you being active rather than replaced. In fact, I would much prefer that. It is easier for you to start playing than for a new person to pick up after you.

I was getting pretty upset that so many people have neglected the game. So, now that you have time I look forward to you playing more actively.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Considering the number of players not participating, you asking for Maddie to be replaced is pretty unwarranted.

But this isn't game related, I don't believe I name called either.

Is Taz's last vote scummy to you? Why or why not?

Maddie is perfectly situated to be replaced. Of all players she has contributed the least. If we had a clear idea of when her return was we could judge it better. But, I, with other MODs, have practiced an LOA limit for the quality of game play. I think it becomes more important because of slacking players. We need ever active player possible for best game play. And, those who fail to play for a long period of time need to be replaced by more engaged players.

Though you did not call me a "name", you did charachterise me negatively because I want players to be more active or replaced. That negative characterization was the pathetic behavior I referred to. I am here to play a game. And, at a certain point, inactive players need to be replaced for the benefit of the active players. It is not self righteous. Further, it benefits all players to have inactive players replaced.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Everything about TAZ is scummy to me. Including his last vote. He is giving no reasons for any actions. He ignores questions. He just follows anyones trend, and does not choose his own path. He is attempting to vote hope so he can appear to fulfill his previous description. He left behind his OMGUS vote on me because he feels that everyone is over looking him. He has decided that he can get away with anything he wants, and no one will concern themselves with him. At this point in the game, he does not need to just vote hope for kicks and giggles. We have only less than 4 days left until deadline, and he is not being serious about helping town find scum. He just claims a blanket agreement with CryMeARiver, who did not even substantiate his reason for voting Zero. So, what the heck is TAZARO agreeing with? Oh yeah, the part where CryMeARiver says that he thinks TAZARO is town. He is just trying to hide after Robbnva and I scalded him in boiling oil. And, the town let him get a free pass up to that point. I stand by my vote 100%. No one else deserves to die more than TAZARO. I think we should at least get him down to L-2. And, more of town should consider his behavior. Is he playing bad as town, or bad as scum? I am 100% convinced he is scum. And, I do not care if you call it tunneling. If I am wrong, than I will back off my tunneling on Day 2. But, I am not wrong. Lynch him, and you will know for sure.

And, I demand that CRYMEARIVER explains how the heck he sees TAZARO as town. In fact, I ask all of you, how can you possibly see TAZARO as a pro-town player?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

EBWOP:

Hope = hop for post 290. Must have been loosing my spelling in English after reading spanish for a few hours.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, this weekend will be very busy. All of my family is coming in town from around the country. So, I will be visiting with them. I will check in when I can. I will be completely active on Monday.

My vote will stay on TAZARO. We have to have a majority to vote. So good luck lynching anyone else besides TAZ by deadline which is Sunday. Like I said, I will followup as much as possible, but do not expect much.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky is my second suspect!

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Kill jimfinn or zerofang if they do not make their alignment claim. We should not allow them get away without it. I would include maddie, but She just needs to be replaced.

Jimfinn and zerofang, why have you not made your alignment claim? One of you will die for that neglect if I have anything to do with it.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I need to ISO players. My strongest case is TAZ. After that it is not as strong. So, I think jimfinn should die for neglecting alignment claim.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

So, Antihero at this point is still my third suspect. So, I go TAZ, tasky, & antihero.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

So, now everyone has claimed town alignment. I have a few questions.

1) are you lying when you claim town? We know at least two of you are, and maybe even Three.
2) Do you know who is lying? We know that you scum know your partners.
3) Do you know who is telling the truth?
4) Why did you claim town alignment?
5) Are you just following suite to claim as "town" because tasky told you to claim as town, and you did for the sole purpose of fulfilling his request?
6) Who are your confirmed townies, and WHY?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I do not have a lot of time. But, tomorrow is deadline. So TAZ is our best lynch for today. Everyone needs to join that cause. Lynch him early tomorrow. We can not risk waiting for the Vig Kill to happen or not. I will comment if I get time.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Sorry it goes against all your principles to vote for the MOST scum player Tasky. I know you have proposed a case on Robbnva. I will look at it Day 2. And, with the added information of TAZARO dead, we can better analyze between you and him who really is scum. Here is my problem for Robbnva as Day 1 lynch. You do not have enough people who are ready to agree with you by TODAY to make it happen. Even if you are right, which I do not know, and do not have enough time to investigate, we should lynch TAZARO.

Tararo has neglected any and all pro-town behavior. He has not done a single thing that constitutes scum hunting. He has never provided any adequate reason for any vote. Which he tossed to the wind to see where it would land. He never defended himself against 2 rather well formed cases. Every action after his attack was more and more scummy. Every step he took made it more evident he really is scum. Even to the point that he has become a lurker, while it was evident that half of town was inactive. How can a pro-town MEGA POSTER all the sudden drop out of the game when town is struggling? Oh yeah, because he is not town. Then he TOUTS that there is a risk that TOWN will not get a lynch for Day 1. And, in a way celebrates that his absence along with the TOWNs utter lack of HELPFUL posting has nearly saved him.

The most PRO-TOWN act today, deadline day, is to LYNCH TAZARO. Who ever is not on the WAGON is suspect. It is so pro-town that I think

TAZARO SHOULD SELF LYNCH

.

It is a vital, extremely important sacrifice for TOWN. We must lynch him at all costs. If he does not lynch himself, and no one does, than he must be LYNCHED for Day 2. That is wasted time for dead, town.

Seriously, we do not have even enough active player to lynch. Unless TAZARO self lynches. Or, Anyone who calls themselves town.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

@MOD:

All the ACTIVE PLAYERS are voting to lynch TAZARO, except himself. If he does not self hammer, and no one else steps up to hammer, I feel that it is most fair to the ACTIVE PLAYERS to give us the lynch. The ACTIVE PLAYERS have done everything in our power to lynch a player. I think to prevent the ACTIVE PLAYERS from actually having the lynch, due to deadline, would give an uneven balance to the mafia players. Further, I think extending the deadline without replacing a few players would not be sufficient to effectively resolve the situation. But, I will respect your call on this issue.

I am posting this publicly, not in any way to crisis you. I understand how hard it is to MOD a game. Especially, when you are tight on personal time. And, when several players do not pull their personal weight. Please do not be offended. But, this request should be public because all ACTIVE PLAYERS should hear and support the request. We, together, feel that our hands are strapped to make the situation any more profitable.

Again, we have done all we could to plead for more players to be active. We have posted plenty of content to comment on, for all player to react too. We have painstakingly carried the conversation as far as we could with the 5 ACTIVE PLAYERS and USEFUL. Even if you extend the deadline, and no one responds, this request is reasonable for game balance and fairness to the ACTIVE PLAYERS. Thanks for understanding my request and considering it. I leave the judgement in your hands.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I agree he should have held back with the Deadline extension. But, I can not control that aspect. If he was town, he would have waited until extension. I just felt it was best to get a lynch if there was no extension offered. Sorry he was scummy about how he did it after the deadline.

And, even if you pop up townie TAZARO. You deliberately acted scummy. So, I feel justified in your lynch either way. I just wish you would have done the town thing and let the deadline extension take affect. But, you have not acted town the whole day.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Notice, I clarified deadline day as the day to self lynch if we could not do it by town majority. So, the extension meant today was not deadline day.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I thought thought for sure Tazaro was scum. I am pissed that he played so anti-town. But, it is amazing that 4 or 5 days of Night 1 and we have no night kill. But, for Day 2, I am going to play different than just jump on a tunnel vision. I am completely taken back.

But, one thing I was not expecting is that Cal Lightman would be Vanilla. I thought he would be the "Lie Detector" role. So, I am confused by that.

I do not believe anything Espeonage says at this point. He has not merited anyones trust.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

My style will be different to the affect that I will consider others arguments more.

I need to ISO players to get a better feel. That will be by Tuesday, I hope.

I will give consideration to the three proposed suspects: Tasky, jimfinn, & robbnva.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Jimfinn explain your fence sitting and deliberate RVS, yet not RVS, vote on TASKY. I am starting to think you are scum. And, I would still not be surprised if Tasky was one partner.

After my ISO, I will detail my thoughts in these regards.

Tasky, why was it against all your principles to vote for Tazaro? Did you really have inside knowledge that he was VI and not scum? He was the scummiest player by far. And, he really buddied up to you. I wonder what convinced you he was not scum. Please do tell.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

What is wrong with seeing Tasky in connection with specifically Tazaro and Jimfinn? Specifics. It has nothing to due with my top suspect. It is the behavior and interaction between them.

Further, I only stated the possibility that TASKY is connected with jimfinn. I have not laid out my case on it yet. I think that Tasky warrants consideration as scum. That has not changed much. What has changed is how he can be seen as scum now after the Tazaro flip verses before the Tazaro flip. Which I hope to outline at some point tomorrow.

So, separately, I consider TASKY as scum. But, connections are highly important to draw up and identify. Because, the success of town is entirely based on the identification of scum interactions with each other, and with town players.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

@Locke Lamora

So, your only reason for disliking me is that I think Tasky is scum? And I agree that Jimfinn looks scummy too? What the heck are you even talking about when you say I suddenly suspect Jimfinn? Is that bad that I agree with the case antihero laid down? Look, I think that Jimfinn joining the Tasky wagon was not Random. But, I am not claiming this is the strongest possible connection in the world. I just happened by it.

So, tell me, why are you defending Tasky? What convinces you that he is town? Because, if these are the reason your scumdar is pinging, then I think you should explain why suspecting Tasky to be scum is an act of scumminess. You must have a reason for concluding he is "town" to stick your neck out for him. If not, your scumdar is malfunctioning.

Further, why is it "suddenly...convenient" for me to accept the possibility that Jimfinn is scum? What real case have you laid down against him? How is it more convenient for me than for you? How is it more sudden for me than it is for you? There has to be at least 2 scum, and most likely there are 3 scum. So, why am I not allowed to have parallel suspects? Why do I have to conform to your understanding, without my own thoughts?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Massive wall post on my ISO on TASKY. Hope Locke understands my case on TASKY. Next to come is my ideas on Jimfinn.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

vote tazaro

for now this is good enough to put some pressure on him

I find this scummy. although your reasons to vote tazaro are acceptable (and therefore a null-tell)

This still bothers me. I asked him, and his response was not satisfactory to me.

Tasky, why is Robbnva's "acceptable" reasons null-tell? If it is "acceptable", would that not mean you should consider it? Thus, making it of value, and not null. Explain yourself.

Robbnva's reason was acceptable, since I see the reasoning.I considered it. I just do not agree with it.
as I said, the scummy part was the last sentence, not the rest of the post.

If someone has valid points those points are not null BECAUSE they are valid. So he disagrees with the points. The disagreement makes the points of attack null for him. But, the validity of the points do not by nature nullify the points. Tasky used the word, acceptable points are NULL.

I have to say I like what you are doing here, I really do. BUT, I do want you to use your kill today. should you not use it, tomorrow I will do everything I can to have you lynched.

This appears to be an empty threat. He has done nothing today to get Nachomamma8 lynched. Why? He tried to pressure Nacho to make a shot with this threat. Town should hope to persuade Nacho to use his shot effectively before he does. But, in any case, he has not even considered doing anything about lynching him, or explaining himself from backing off the threat.

this is much more I ever had on Robbnva. see it as OMGUS if you want, but you are definitely NOT trying to find out my alignment, you are trying to prove I am scum and discredit me. and that's what distinguishes town from mafia.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Shepherd_of_Wolves,
definitely

What is this? Another empty threat. Now he has turned back to Robbnva, even though he had "much more" on me than he "ever had on Robbnva". What happened to that? Emptiness.

so I voted him for it. it was, indeed, a weak vote, but it was the best I had at that moment. now, luckily enough, you have revealed yourself as much scummier than Robbnva, so I dropped that "case" (if you want to call it a case).

He admits he had a weak case on Robbnva. And insists that he was lucky enough to find me. And, he "dropped" his case.

I actually think you should shoot Tazaro.

Nachomamma8, shoot Taz. do it.

He really demands Nachomamma shoots and kills. Funny thing, he would not vote for Tazaro, but he would call on someone to kill him. And, then later it was entirely against his principles to vote for Tazaro.

Tasky. My first vote on him was very weak, intended both to get reactions and to investigate the first semi-scummy action in the game. His ISO #11 was absolutely dreadful. He suggested we day kill a player who at the time (and even now) hadn't done much, and then tried to absolve himself of any responsibility. He's my first scum pick.

ok... now you tell me what's so dreadful about that post.
then you tell me how suggesting a vig kill is scummy. as I already said, Tazaro has such a scummy meta that it is impossible for me to get a read on him. on the other side he I really don't want him around later, for said scummyness and because he isn't able to contribute decently. this is the reason why I want him vigged. If there really is a one shot day vig, then he won't really find a better target later. Since he will likely be confirmed town as soon as he shoots, the mafia isn't going to keep him around very long. it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to vig Taz. I see it as a general rule that players who have really scummy meta and can't be read because of it shall be vigged instead.
and then you tell me where I "tried to absolve [myself] of any responsibility".

So, why did he not demand I get vigged? I was his top suspect. Why did he not want Robbnva vigged? He was second on the list. And, earlier he wanted him vigged for being scummy. But, why switch to Tazaro? He did not even care, UNTIL THIS TIME, that Tazaro was scummy. Yet, later it was still against all his principles to vote him. All the sudden, "it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to vig Taz." If he DID NOT see him as scum, and he DID see him as town, why would it be a shame to let him live day one? Really, this is an easy kill without the responsibility of having to vote a TOWNIE.

You got it. I think Tasky knew he was town. He wanted him killed here, but later he conveniently went against all his principles to follow town to vote for Tazaro. The fact that it was against all his principles, even though he called out for him to be vigged shows me that he wanted to not be connected with a VOTE on a TOWNIE lynch wagon.

[weak] ≠ [nonsense]

When he has weak reasons to vote, it is NOT nonsense. Yet when Robbnva had a "acceptable" reason, it WAS null. Or, in other words, if TASKY has weak reasons it is not nonsense, but when ROBBNVA has acceptable reasons it is null (nonsense).

Referring to Robbnva defending his call to vig TAZ, he says

and, if I remember correctly, you are voting for taz. wtf? aren't you "gambling" too?

First, it is much less of a gamble to take the responsibility to vote, and persuade others to join you. If you call out for a easy, no responsibility, vig kill that is far more of a gamble for town. Town whats to kill based on reasons they believe in. And Tasky never believed in VOTING for TAZARO. NEVER. It was against all his principles. Yet, Robbnva, wanted his scummy player dead. NOT just an easy, no responsibility, kill.

Notice, I never called for a vig kill. I called for a town majority lynched based on reason. And, I set forth my reasoning. I was the strongest player against TAZARO, and I did not call for a VIG KILL. I took responsibility for my vote. Yet, TASKY, fighting tooth and nail not to vote for Taz, just wanted an easy kill. Keep in mind he said that TAZARO was 3/4 town. 75% majority town players, should never be your pick for a vig kill.

I know my gut feeling was right there. even if my case was weak. you are definitely scum. I am extremely serious about this.

Wait, why not call for Robbnva vig kill right now? You did not care about killing scum. And, what happened to any case on me. All the sudden, his empty threat on me goes nowhere.

Below are the real fears of tasky.
To Robbnva, he says

you just want to throw dirt on me.

Earlier he accused me of the same thing. He really is worried about being show in any bad light.

you are definitely NOT trying to find out my alignment, you are trying to prove I am scum and discredit me.

as soon as you flip scum, I'll definitely keep my eye on ZeroFang... IGMEOY

Robbnva, you need to be todays lynch.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Robbnva

He calls for Robbnva to be Day 1 lynch. Robb was not even close to being lynched. Tazaro was. Why not ask Nachomamma to vig kill him?

In ISO post 23 he does not know who is telling the truth, but he definitely states Robbnva is lying.

Tasky is suffering that Robb is not being killed. Why not call for a vig kill? He did on TAZ.

your contradictions are so blatant it's really a pain to watch every minute of you being still around.

I wanted to let him vig Taz, since I can't get to read him and his flip will get us valuable information for todays lynch.
right now I'd again prefer he shoots Robbnva, as I have a really strong scum read again. and, because I think that if he is scum, you are a really likely buddy. I'm slightly suspicious of you, but I actually am much more sure Robbnva is scum.

Oh, hear he finally calls for a Robbnva vig kill, PASSIVELY. But, why not lynch Tazaro by vote, if you believed him 3/4 town? But, remember, TAZ never was a suspect. He just wanted to vig him.

NOW of all people, you really made a huge deal of my connections. My connections were based on actual text evaluation. But, you just draw a Zero connection from the air. You never post a case for connection. Your connection analysis is far more crappy than mine. But, you really saw me as scum when I posted a analysis of how you appeared to be connect to TAZARO. Be assured, I do not think you are connected to TAZARO now. He is confirmed innocent. You are appear guilty to me.

if you don't shoot, I want a large breakdown of your view on the game. I want to hear a GOOD explanation for not shooting, considering you declared that you were definitely going to shoot today.

So, did he answer you sufficiently? You never pursued this.

Tasky you are are either scum or VI

lol. trying to bully me off?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

damn
this goes against all my principles, but a Taz lynch is definitely better than a no lynch.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Tazaro

Robbnva, don't think I forgot you. I have you caught and you know it.
and people, PLEASE, go and look back on Robbnva. you really don't see what I see?. Robbnva is scum, he has to be our lynch!

Here is the post where it has always been against ALL his PRINCIPLES to VOTE for Tazaro. But, he was willing to have him be an easy, no responsibility, vig kill. He was willing to have that way early in the day. But, now at end of day, he is extremely reluctant to vote for him. He is removing himself from being responsible for the vote. This is spond by the

we could have gotten much more information out of your lynch.

Oh the resentment. Yet, earlier he was willing to have an immediate vig kill on him. Again, removing himself of responsibility for his vote.

Nacho is town.

I believe ya

I do not like how easily he accepted that Nacho was town. He was adamant that he would push for a Nacho lynch. Yet he hands down accepts this town claim. That was convenient to not have make good on his strong threat. Notice, he never was satisfied with Nacho's treatment of the vig kill.

Tasky, why was it against all your principles to vote for Tazaro? Did you really have inside knowledge that he was VI and not scum? He was the scummiest player by far. And, he really buddied up to you. I wonder what convinced you he was not scum. Please do tell.

I was never convinced he wasn't scum. the thing is, I know him (a little) and know his play style. and I know that he behaves that way when he is town (I never played with him when he was scum), so I thought lynching him was the wrong play. but on the other side I am aware that he has to die sooner or later since I really can't get a read on him, that's why I wanted him vigged. since we wouldn't have lynched anyone else that day, a Taz lynch was probably better than a no-lynch, especially since there was, after all, a possibility of him being scum.

He thought lynching TAZARO was the wrong play, but not calling for him to be VIGGED. Denying responsibility. He wanted him vigged early on DAY 1. Why? cause he can read him. Not because he was scummy. That is brilliant for town.

Lynch the UNREADABLE before the SCUMMY.

When I look for scum, until proven otherwise, nobody is a VI. Scum-tells are scum-tells and they catch scum.

Yet, he thought TAZ was VI. He did not say it, but he says UNREADABLE. He ignored all the scummy behaviors on him.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

EBWOP

Tasky did could

NOT

read Tazaro here in the second to last paragraph. And his policy was

VIG (Kill) the UnREADABLE before the SCUMMY

.

But, he fought voting for tasky's lynch even though he wanted the vig. That is clarification on that paragraph.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky, I am willing to give you a benefit of the doubt here. I will not continue my pursuit on you, for now, based on your response. But, I will explain myself to you, as you asked.

I was repeating myself, because the points I was making were being repeated in your behavior.

I just felt that you were calling out a vig. kill on someone you did not feel was scum. I do not see the pro-town strategy behind that. Nacho said that he had a one time vig. kill. Why waste it on an Unreadable over a Scum? I felt like you were pulling a double standard to kill tasky. Instead of persuading a majority to lynch him, you attempted to persuade one person to vig him. If you believed he was 75% town, why attempt to vig him? The odds of finding scum increase by analysis. So, you cannot claim 3/4 chance of town on everyone, especially the scummy acting players. And, then today you stated that you did not like to distinguish between VI and scum. You basically said if they are VI, they are more likely scum than VI.

Your connections between people are purely stated on a whim of emotion (or gut), not demonstrated by analysis. So, I am stating you have little grounds to say I was stretching to find connections when I actually demonstrated connections based on analysis of text. My attempts were logical analysis, even if they were not strong points. But, emotional based points are even weaker.

Same with your case against me. I feel like it was 100% emotional. You have never once stated an analysis of my play to demonstrate how you saw me as scum. You just did not like that I was challenging your play with negative reading.

You never said, okay nacho, you fulfilled my demands to explain yourself. Therefore, you never resolve the issue you had against him. The only change you had on him was to agree with Espionage. So, I felt like you threatened to push for his lynch if he did not satisfy your demands to vig someone. Second, you demanded that he explain himself if he did not vig on day one. And, you did not indicate that you felt that he met that second condition.

I am not voting you because I am not sure that you are scum. I wanted to post my case, and see your response. I think you have satisfied my questions and responded sufficient to my case. Therefore, my vote will not be placed on you. I am now leaning to see you as town. But, had you posted a poor response, I would have continued the pursuit.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky, your case against Robbnva does not convince me.

I looked at his profile to see when he last visited the sight. It was 24 September. That is 5 days.

While there I noticed his 4 rules for identifying scum. He states:

1. The most pro town player
2. The lurker
3. The person who deflects when accused
4. The person most against the day 1 lynch of a townie

Now, my whole case on you going against all your principles to vote for TAZARO is defined by rule 4. That is was bothered me most about you when TAZARO flipped scum. And, If Robbnva was actually playing on DAY 2, I am absolutely sure he would be up and down your back for that, as it is one of his rules.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

MOD

Mokujin (19 September) and Robbnva (19 September) have not posted on Day 2 at all. Although, Robbnva visited sight on 24 September. Thanks.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Here is the voters on Tazaros lynch.

Tazaro(6) - Robbnva, Shepherd_of_Wolves, Narsis, jimfinn, Nachomamma8, Tasky

And, the hammer was TAZARO.

This is just a review. I think it is fitting for all the proposed suspects. But, I think there is possibly 1 scum off the lynch. But, I am seeing both Narsis and Jimfinn on there. That supports there suspicion. Tasky joined with much resistance, that supports that rule 4 I posted earlier from Robbnva. Robb is there, supporting Tasky's claim. Nachomamma is there (believed to be town by most, with the Espeonage claim). And, I am there.

At this point:
So, I am willing to consider that Nacho is town.
I am giving Tasky the benefit of being town.
I personally believe Robbnva is possibly town.
And, we know that Tazaro is confirmed town.
And, I know that I am town.

That leaves
Narsis (10 posts at time of lynch, 16 to date)
Jimfinn (16 posts at time of lynch, 20 to date)

I will do and ISO on both of them.


The people off the lynch are,
Mokujin/Maddie (4 posts at time of lynch)
Locke Lamora/CryMeARiver (9 posts at time of lynch)
ZeroFang (17 posts at time of lynch)
Espeonage (30 posts at time of lynch, many useless)
Antihero (41 posts at time of lynch)

So the people that need to be spurred the most from that group are
Mokujin
Locke Lamora
Zerofang

They have rather pathetic DAY 1 activity. Thankfully, Locke Lamora, has picked up the slack from his predecessor. But, I do not think he has done anything to be trusted yet.

Mokujin has just been DEAD weight for the game. I hope whoever replaces him is active. I think his ZERO contribution is severe damage to a town win.

Zerofang is starting to redeem himself today.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Narsis ISO

Post 1: Role-fishing, especially with the power role piece.

2: A pathetic read. All he had to comment on was a Role claim. YEA, if that is all he had to see, you know that is scummy. This is post 145 in thread. So, that is all he saw.

3: (in full thread post 175): After this far into the game, all he can say is TELLS "dont mean much to me". They do not have to have meaning to scum. They are not looking for scum tells.

Everyones reasons are GOOD ENOUGH for him. That is right, let everyone else do the work. He just tags along.

He goes so far as to say he dislikes Maddie's lack of posting, on his 4th post. Wow! He has room to talk.

He takes a little distancing JAB at jimfinn by stating, "jim's vote looks more like opportunistic scum.

This is most condeming

oftentimes other players may have already caught something that stuck out to me. i see no reason to repeat what they are saying. however if i do see something that i think someone missed, then i will bring it forward.

He does not have his own opinion on other players. He just is waiting for others to make points, and he will sneak in to get a lynch.

4: VAGUE NEUTRALITY. DAY 1 is a waste of his time. He does not need to ask questions, probe, analysis on day one. Just see who turns up dead by the lynch, kill someone at night, and than consider being SOLIDIFIED on suspects day 2.

How pathetic! He likes players to contribute. But, he does not pressure, probe, question, demand, investigate, or analyze. What does he even consider contribution. Does he think he is a shining example of a contributing player?

So, he only bases his opinion on my case for who the most scummy player is. But, he just called jimfinn "opportunistic scum" in his last post. Why did he not pursue that?

5: AMAZING!!! Great stuff. Golden Scum tells. The whole thing has to be included.

Everyone else

I think we should not be too hasty to lynch too soon before deadline. But, I want to hear everyones opinion.
(1) Why should we not lynch Tazaro for Day 1?

never said we shouldn't not lynch him. i just havent seen a good enough reason posted by anyone for a lynch as of yet

(2) Who should be lynched instead, and WHY?

whoever, if anyone, ends up being scummier as the day gets closer to deadline

(3) What do you think about TAZARO being so insistent that I needed to be pressured UNVOTE Tasky? See post #104.

i think it's him defending Tasky in a fairly poor manner.

(4) What do you think about the fact that TAZARO has not changed his vote, nor laid down a case against me, nor attempted to pursue other players with questions or charges?

well he did make a comment on me...but overall his lack/avoidance of scumhunting isn't helping his case and is making me more suspicious of him

He has not seen a GOOD ENOUGH reason by ANYONE to LYNCH. Well, we are not even close to lynching. But, you just he was the best candidate based on MY case. Again, why is he focussing on ANYONEs reasons? He refuses to take action, or to propose reasons HIMSELF.

I asked, "Who should be lynched instead?" His response, "WHOEVER, if ANYONE..." ONLY scum are so careless to lynch WHOEVER. But, he is not pursuing that person. He is just letting others do the leg work.

He chides TAZARO for not scum hunting, saying, "but overall his lack/avoidance of scumhunting isn't helping his case and is making me more suspicious of him"

Excuse me. Where is Narsis's scum hunting? Oh wait, he is waiting for others. How dare Tazaro for not scum hunt for Narsis. Narsis needs people to do it for him, and Tazaro is not cutting the mustard.

6: Finally, he claims to be PROACTIVE. But, just based on others. Avoiding asking any questions, demanding a defense.

7: The first none role-fishing question. Great job!

8: Just waiting for others to play the game for him. He would not dare INVOLVE himself in SCUM HUNTING. That type of discussion does not INVOLVE him.

9: Notice, he never demanded later that I answer my own questions. Which I did not. And, then he never really gets to the WHY part of my questions here or in post 5 of his.

10: I think Narsis is really role fishing here. I think he selected NACHO for the night kill, because he did not want a VIG in the game. So, he is taken back by the fact he did not die. He was fishing for a PROTECTION ROLE.

He asks for OTHERS thoughts on the Tazaro flip. But, he does not offer his own thoughts at any point on the matter.

11: He questions why I changed my failed play style. Sounds like he thrives on people like me who do the leg work for him. All he had to do was grab onto my coattails and take a ride. Remember, I was the convincing player for him. And, he only voted for TAZARO because he did not defend against my case. So, Narsis wants me to play the lead for him.

12: He said that jim was "opportunistic scum" and now says "i dont suspect him as much"

He liked my pushing on TAZ, because that means he did not have to. He was happy that I did the pushing, because he was not going to.

13: He stands against no lynches for day 1. But, he did not lift a finger to get dialogue out of people. He just followed my lead, let me get the steam, and jumped on for the lynch.

One thing he underestimates is the flip of the NIGHT KILL. I think this indicates the fact he does not want to discuss the no night kill too much.

14: ODDS ARE...He does not pursue the purpose of his initial question about what people think of the TAZ flip. He admits that the ODDS of that question meaning anything towards scum hunting are weak. He never explains it purpose. He never answers it himself. He never discusses its value to him.

Now he needs to reread. Okay, every one does once in a while.

15: He admits to state a reread is scummy. Is he rereading to see how he can manipulate the game? As town, I find ISO reading to be more effective that a REread.

He better give a good read on AntiHero. What was the initial details that lead to this thought that he is scum?

He used a TRAP. That sounds very much MAFIA. I think the trap was to ROLE FISH for a Protection role. A trap for town to step into.

Tasky is SEEN as scum by Narsis. He better give a good read on that too. I personally think it is based on my case. He is waiting for me to post it so he can say, "JUST WHAT SHEPHERD SAID". That is crap. He just was grabbing my coattails again.

Although he voted for the lynch suspect, he did not scum hunt at all on DAY 1.

We are all waiting to see his SOLIDIFICATION of ideas. They better be his own. He better not solidify on others cases. That would not be GOOD ENOUGH (as he would say)!!!

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

VOTE:

Narsis

My ISO read has convinced me his is scum. I will next ISO Jimfinn. I know I said that before, but I just happened upon Narsis first.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

EBWOP: his is scum = he is scum

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

jimfinn ISO analysis

Post 6: (First with any meaning) His claimed RVS vote is post 96 in thread. A wagon is formed on tasky, and he happens to RVS on the wagon. So, why did he was until 96 posts in the game to RVS. He could have done that with in the first 6 posts previous to this. But, a timely way to join a wagon and slip in the suggestion that it is only RVS. Why did he not question Tasky. Why has not done anything in the first several posts.

7: Notice he says "CREATE scumtells". That is right, he is not trying to FIND scumtells. Rather, he is trying to CREATE scumtells. Why are reactions more helpful than questions, answers, and related discussion? I think scum want to CREATE scumtells by REACTIONS. Not FIND scumtells by DISCUSSION. I would call that a major scumfail on his part.

8: Wagoning players for reaction is better for him than questioning, probing, and discussing. He confesses his reasons are not serious. So, he is a useless wagon vote, only doing to be part of a crowd. A truely effective town wagon vote is in conjunction with discussion, questioning, and testing the vote. You can not get ideas of scum, just by waiting for them to REACT to your vote. Voting for town applies pressure behind the questions. It is a tool to demand responses from questions, and produce DISCUSSION. It is not just to wait, or create, a REACTION.

Let me point out that he repeats "no serious reason" and in post 7 he said "nothing too serious". It is focussed on making sure his vote is without pressure. Do not worry, my vote is not serious. I am not trying to find scum. I am just waiting to see if you REACT so I can make you look bad.

9: He thinks that town "push a specific strategy". So, why does he follow Narsis's example, and passively wait for others to make a case he can join. Looks like he is preparing to join my case. He is not going to do any leg work to establish his own case.

10: Answer one. He just like to kill on his gut. So, if he has a gut feeling that he has found a PR, he can just kill the PR. Like the failed attempt on Nacho.

Answer 4A:
In ISO 8 Jim says

Wagon players up and down and see how they react

His primary focus was to see of the specific player reacts to there own wagon. But now he says.

we learn far more about A,B,C,D,G, and J than we do about E

Answer 4B:This little tidbit bothers me.

(assuming some logical explanation for the votes)

He states that the player with wagon pressure needs to explain himself. But, this tidbit he adds, states that votes on the wagon should have a logical explanation. What, like his vote? Please. He did not offer logic in his vote on the wagon. In fact, he was doublely clear that his vote was not based on any serious reasons. No logic, just following the crowd. So, in effect, he is saying that Tasky has no reason to respond to his vote. He just placed it to CREATE REACTIONS.

One more point to consider

(though he should not self-hammer - town should pretty much never self-hammer except in extraordinary circumstances)

He makes this statement, we have a VT self-hammer, at my request. If this is his theory, why has he not posted a response from the self-hammer play out? He did not say that he felt we had an extraordinary circumstance. He did not discuss the fact that it happened after the MOD extended the deadline. He did not question my motive for pressuring a self-hammer. He did not remove his vote to prevent a self-hammer. This whole situation did not even phase him. If this was truly and important theory to him, he should have demonstrated some reaction to the fact that it happened. Was he perfectly satisfied with the self-hammer, against his own theory? Why has he taken TAZAROs VT flip so casually when it involved a very important element that went against his theory of good play.

I think it is because, he is not focussed on analyzing and discussing the game. He is just waiting for a reaction.

12: This is really important. Because, he thinks one of TASKY, TAZARO, or I am scum. Now in DAY 2, we know TAZ is town. So, why did he not pursue TASKY or ME? Why is he not up in our faces about the VT lynch? Me, who was 100% for the lynch, and TASKY who was 95% against the lynch. Crying out loud. We are on opposite ends of the spectra with regards to lynching TAZ, and both of us voted to lynch him. Now he is town. And, the three people involved are not even mentioned.

I think it was a convenient position to take for DAY 1. It was such a short term statement for him.

15: So, the reason he votes TAZARO, is not his own. NO. It is all based on NACHO's plan. But, he just said, in post 12,

I'm waiting for more exchange of rhetoric before I feel confident as to which of them.

He was waiting for rhetoric to establish his confidence. But, that is not even what convinced him. It was NACHO's plan. And, the fact that it was an easy lynch wagon.

His vote comes near deadline. How convenient! He does not need to take time to explain himself. He does not need to take time to evaluate if that is a worthy vote. He just can slip under the radar, jump on the vote, APPEAR protown. And, now that he flipped scum, he can just say, I was doing based on other players reasons. I was CONVINCED. It was a mistake to be convinced. Thus, separating himself from the responsibility to account for his explanations for voting. And so he does. The first thing he points out was Nacho was the plan. I was the follower.

17: He is hyper focussed on what seems to seem "like a reasonable protown plan". He is just following the PROTOWN crowd. Not being a mover of the protown crowd. In even participating in it. Just following it. Because, if it seems protown, maybe that will shed on him. This is the point that I am making just above, he blames his vote on being convinced by NACHO. Not based on the rhetoric he was looking for between the three players he found suspicious.

18: This one is too incriminating to pass up. I have to include the whole quote.

I'm being asked to explain my RVS yet not RVS vote? I used RVS to say that I was not voting based on any read, but I was deliberately joining a wagon. I was not wagonning him based on any real case, but really just trying to create a wagon to take us "out of RVS" and get people to say/do something.

And as for the fencesitting, the discussion among the aforementioned players just reeked of scumminess, but it seemed like it could be any of the players in it. With time running out on D1, my three scum reads were those three players, for their interaction with each other (not that all of them were scum, but more a one is or the other is type situation) and would have willing voted any of the three to get a flip.

He did not want to have a vote "based on any read" to join the first wagon. He just was "DELIBERATELY joining a wagon." Not "based on any REAL case."

So, he says, "JOINING a wagon" and later that he was "trying to CREATE a wagon". Was the wagon already created, and he was joining it. Or, was he creating a wagon so he could CREATE scumtells, like he said in post 7, "Wagon reactions are more likely to create scumtells" .

Funny explanation on his 3 scum suspects. Again, TASKY, TAZ, and ME.

would have willing voted any of the three to get a flip.

Again, he was not voting based on any reason. Just to GET A FLIP. But, has he even remotely attempted to question, vote, pressure, or criticize ME or TASKY today, DAY 2? Not even close. Now he knows that TAZARO is and was town. And, he has not even considered to start a case on me or tasky. Pathetic! Really, is he willing to actually build a case? No. He is just waiting for what? Someone else to build the case, so he can join.

Seriously, if he were ready to lynch any of the three of us, and now knows TAZ is town, what is he waiting for, an engraved invitation? Make your case already. Tasky and I should be far more lynchable now if we had any lynchability yesterday.

Oh wait, that is not what he cares about. I get it. He is scum.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I am okay to lynch either Narsis or Jimfinn today. They are both scum. So, one today, the next tomorrow. Now, the task for the rest of us is find the third person. So, we know the LYNCH for Day 2 and Day 3. The best thing we can do is to find partner 3.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I think both of there cases are well establish by their ISOs. If either one of them came up TOWN, I would be taken back completely. They have completely avoided reference to each other. So, I do not know that one flipping would affect the other. But, I would be pretty pissed if either one of them flipped TOWN.

The only real reason that I would say my suspicions would go up or down on the other, due to the flip, would be based on my ability to read them. If I read one good, I think that I have the other pinned. If I read one bad, then I would question my read on the other. But, they themselves have not crossed the line of connecting each other too much. At least, for now I do not see a connection.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky, I never said I believe you are town. If you read, I said, I would give you the benefit based on your response to my ISO analysis of your play.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky,

I will get to your questions by Tuesday.

Are your good reasons including that he is a PR for mafia? I am not going to just allow you to force us to NOT lynch a very scummy acting player. If he flips scum you will die.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Antihero

, you must be joking. Sure, I am rolefishing. You are right. But, I am attempting to rolefish for MAFIA PR roles. Tasky insists that we are NOT going to lynch Narsis. He has HIS reasons. I was interested in finding out if Tasky is partners with Narsis, and if Narsis was a MAFIA PR. Vanilla Mafia are interested in saving MAFIA PR. So, I was suspecting that to be his reason.

Tasky

, that was a threat, yes. If Narsis is MAFIA, then your demand to preserve his life will taint your image worse. So, I will push for your lynch if he pops up MAFIA, unless you have some seriously exceptional reasons for you affectionate defense of him. Why do you have such a strong stance on NOT lynching Narsis? What are your reasons? And, why would we, town, just trust your directions or follow your demands? Why would we be persuaded to just not lynch him based on your undisclosed reasons?

Are you waiting for Robbnva's replacement? Who is your second pick and why?

To All

:
Why is it better to lynch jimfinn over Narsis?
Why do you want to keep Narsis around?
Why do you want to keep jimfinn around?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

These are not best game. I have only played 3. This is the only one I can link you to at this time.
Vanilla Town Game
Newbie 866

Sorry, I made a good faith effort to find my games in the Archives. I would have to reset my password for the archive before I can access it. But, I only played 2 other games that I can remember. The one I was mafia in, I had to drop out early. But, look up my profile in the Archives, and you should be able to link to my topics.

I do not care that you think those rules are crap. I did not make them. I just noted where they were, and said that you fit in rule 4. Which, I think has some legitimacy to it.

The person who attempts to APPEAR most pro-town is likely playing a facade. Lurking takes little to no accountability to answer for. So, it avoids APPEARing at all. Scum want to be unnoticed by town. You misread rule 3, it was not about stopping town from making a mistake. It is about avoiding answering questions. It is about deflecting the conversation from the case against the faulty player. But, if you are persuading town not to make a mistake, you better have a reason they can agree with, and argue. It does not matter that Robbnva posted the rules. The rules can be examined on their claims. He does not have the guy-to-follow status. It just caught my attention when I was seeing when he last posted, or logged in.

Yes, I was attacking you. I still think you KNEW that TAZ was TOWN. And being so strong against voting him was your attempt to appear pro-town. You talked about wanting him dead for being UNREADABLE, but than could hardly bring yourself to vote for him. You did not want to be on a wagon who killed a TOWNIE that you could possibly get town to kill latter in the game for his terrible play. You new he was an easy target for later, cannon fatter, so to speak.

Again, I am not following Robbnva. Though, you have not even posed a convincing case at all. I just saw those rules, and agreed with the rule 4 applying to you. And, because he is the source, I know he would be all up in your grill for violating his rule. But, he is not here to play anymore, so it is neither here nor there for me.

There is no real case to point that Robb is scum. So, I assume here to put him in the more likely town for evaluating the wagon, to narrow down suspects. He actually posted a legitamite case for his vote, unlike Narsis and jimfinn.

I do not think you are town. But, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt for now. I posted my explanation inpost 426.

I think rule 4 has merit. And, I think it counts against you. If people disagree, let the make their case. I have no fears.

For analysis sake, I will agree Nacho is town, along with Espeonage.

The number of posts has to do with content available to search. The less content players, like Narsis and jimfinn, are easy to read. But, more importantly, they demonstrate a lack of individual thought. They just followed the crowd. And, the lack of posting really points that out, along with the ISO read.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me. But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement. But, I assure you, I am town. And, my lynch will not profit a town victory.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

lol. stop posting bullshit. you know you are misrepresenting me. I know you understood what I said, yet you keep repeating the same things over and over again.

I WANTED TAZARO VIGGED, NOT LYNCHED. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO THINGS.
additionally the bolded part just doesn't make any sense at all.

so you are saying I wanted a wagon to kill Tazaro with me not on it, so I could have him killed later? WTF?
If I'd wanted a Tazaro mislynch I would have just voted him.

there is no thing as benefit of the doubt. if you don't think I am town, you attack me. period.

oh. right. Assumption SoW is scum. WOW, I caught scum!! /sarcasm off
it's easy to make assumptions for "analysis sake" and then get "correct" reads.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me. But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement. But, I assure you, I am town. And, my lynch will not profit a town victory.

whining already? WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO ME LIKE I AM TOWN? weren't you suspicious of me just a moment ago?
you know you failed with discrediting me, so now you try to buddy up to me. LOL.
NOBODY EVER TALKED ABOUT LYNCHING YOU.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Scumteam:
Robbnva (85%)
SoW (90%)
ZeroFang (60% if Robbnva flips scum, 50% otherwise)

SoW: you scum level officially passed Robbnva's

ARM OF SUSPICION: Shepherd_of_Wolves

the only reason I prefer lynching Robbnva over SoW right now is that SoW posts a lot. If we let him live today, he HAS to keep up his posting if he doesn't want to give up and will therefore give us much more information than Robbnva.

PS: SoW, I want you to do a post by post breakdown on ZeroFang. DO NOT keep vague.

I have no idea what your character is. I am in the dark. I cannot misrepresent you, because I do not know the truth about you. I challenge your character. I point to evidence that makes you look like scum. That is not misrepresentation. It is simply analytical evaluation.

I know there is a difference in you wanting him VIGGED and not LYNCHED. We just interpret that difference differently. You say it makes you LOOK town aligned. I say it makes you LOOK mafia aligned.

I am saying you knew he would be a good lynch, easy to frame, later in the game. Because he was UNREADABLE. So, you resisted being part on his wagon to APPEAR favorable to a TOWN lynch. You knew he was town, if you are scum. That is the basis of the argument. You were not just attempting to not vote him, but all together prevent his lynch from happening. But, at last, at deadline, you jumped on. As ZeroFang pointed out, you slipped by saying you would just join. Because you did just join. You preferred people dead, rather than a no lynch.

For you there may not be a benefit of the doubt. But, you may actually be lying. Because you gave that BENEFIT to Tazaro yesterday. Or, maybe you are not lying. You have NO DOUBTS as to what player alignments are. You KNOW them, because you are scum.

Well, I will let you in on a secret of TOWN. We have all sorts of doubts. We have no idea who is who. So, I allowed myself to DOUBT you were scum based on your response. That is because I did not give myself enough room to DOUBT day 1 and I TUNNELED Taz. By virtue of tunneling, I refused to DOUBT. But, I gave you the grace and BENEFIT to DOUBT my case against you. Remember the odds, 3/11 scum or 8/11 town.

I was not addressing YOU as town. My point was, that YOU can attempt to lynch me. But, TOWN has to have a majority vote to accomplish that. So, I addressed the issue that TOWN should use their best judgement if they consider it. Keep in mind, I am not WHINING. I am answering your question if I was WILLING to DIE. You asked. I answered. I am not responding to a threat, I am responding to question. I am not your buddy. I have never been your buddy. I am inclined to see you as scum. I am DOUBTING myself less and less.

Give me 8 to 12 solid reasons to consider Robbnva as Mafia.
Give me 8 to 12 solid reasons you consider ME, Shepherd, as Mafia.
Do not give me, the you said bad things about me crap. That is not a legitimate reason. There is no reason I should speak GOOD about you. If you are going to put your ARM out there, make it mean something beyond emotional DEFENSIVENESS. In affect you are saying, "KILL Shepherd, he doesn't like me." Bad reason to follow you.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me.

Martyrs are anti-town.

I cannot retract the statement. It is published in the thread now. But, it was a response to Tasky's question if I was willing to die if Narsis and/or jimfinn flipped town. If town feels it is best, I am fine with it. My acceptance to die, in response to his question included this clarification, "But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and

you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement.

"

So, if town judges me to be scum, then they should kill me. My real plea is not to let me live. It is, "kill me with the best logical judgement". Tasky has not even proposed any logic. His case on me, or Robbnva is all GUT, EMOTIONAL, TRUST HIM. And, he can only say that I spew BS. I cannot pamper his emotional outbursts. I am waiting for an actual argument he has against me.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Today's date 4 Oct.

NOT ACCEPTABLE

Jimfinn last post Wed 29 Sept.
Mokujin last post Sun 19 Sept.
Nachomama last post Friday 1 Oct.
Robbnva last post Sun 19 Spet.

ACCEPTABLE IF POST COMES TODAY

Espeonage last post Wed 29 Sept. (POSTED LOA)
Narsis last post Sat 2 Oct.

TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE POSTING AT THIS MOMENT

AntiHero
ZeroFang
Tasky
Shepherd of Wolves
Locke Lamora (If he POSTS Friday, as stated in LOA post)

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

We currently have only 4 active players out of 11. That is not even close for a lynch.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, that is nice that you both posted, and made your presence known. But, that is not sufficient. Please answer my questions, and respond to attacks in the game on you and others.

You can Check the dates yourself. It is easy. I am surprised jimfinn that you failed to notice the MOD already told us that he was seeking to replace them. So, that indicates you are not reading carefully. Why are you not reading the game carefully?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Espeonage, you must explain your immediate request for a VIG on me. How ridiculous for you to demand a VIG. Why not actually post analysis, vote against me and actually work to persuade town to gain a majority on me? I think it would serve the game much better if you did your part and challenged me, and persuaded town of your cause. It is pathetic that you have chosen the most easy path. You think it best to attempt to persuade one person.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

You said you would be a burden to town. Anti-town is usually first pick for vig kills before scummy peeps.

I never declared myself a burden to town.

Where did you interpret that from?
What is a burden to town?
What is the most important thing for town to do?
How are you accomplishing that most important town goal?
How am I preventing the accomplishment of that goal?
What is the best strategy for town to achieve that goal?
What is detrimental to town accomplishing that goal?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky: Bit conflicted with him. Love the amount of posting, but...well I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm thinking he's both scum and town. As in another game I played with him, he is a hard read for me.

So, is your hesitation due to the fact that he is your partner in the mafia? You think you need to separate yourself from him, but you do not want to have him killed?
Is he ENOUGH scum for you to vote for him, and pursue an attack on him?

What 5 reasons do you have to say he is town?
What 7 reasons do you have to say he is scum?
Point out details in posts he has made. Direct us to each post your reference. Provide no less than 9 posts to substantiate your position.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

It helps the focus be about analysis, not just I FEEL, I THINK, I SEE. Those are unhelpful. If you state, this specific point is SCUM, that point is TOWN. Then we argue the points. The only evidence we have is the thread. Support claims with evidence means to site the post you determine has specific meaning. So, I set a reachable limit. If they are full of crap, it will be apparent. If they have a real claim, it will better observed with siting the evidence.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

@ SOW. I misread 472. It said "Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win." I read it as "Lynch me if you want. I will not help town win."

sorry.

Thanks for the clarification. If I read it like you did at first, I too would have wanted that player killed. So, good thing you double checked.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I am excited to see the jimfinn flip. I think it will pop up scum, and we will be sent on a good course. Thanks Nacho.

Can you explain why you chose him in the end, for this fate. Thanks.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

MOD, your last VC said D1.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I voted to keep honing. So, I suppose today we find out. I hope.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

The one role that seems lost forever to the setup is Maddie/Mokujin. The MOD may just have to take all the available roles and design in the rest. Further, I think we should have ALL PLAYERS who have made private actions send in all ACTIONS up to this point.

The only real lose that I see is MADDIE/MOKUJIN. The MOD can check for balance and decide what this role should be.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I agree to MOD KILL maddie/mokujin. I think it is the most balanced thing for the game. BUt, I am also okay if the MOD designs a new role.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

We should only have 11. You counted Nachomamma8 twice. Once on Narsis and once Not voting.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I am still in the game. I will be LOA Wednesday night until Sunday or Monday. I am leaving town, and will not have internet access at all. With my absence in mind, if deadline comes, I stand on my Narsis vote

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I hope to see the jimfinn flip before I leave. I hope it is posted by Wednesday afternoon, MST.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I think that we should have a week once we have 11 or 10 active players. Provided that jimfinn dies, we should have 10 active players. I think that we either need an active player in the MADDIE/MOKUJIN role for no less than 7 days, or a MOD kill on that role. I refuse to accept that role as dead weight into DAY 3. And, same applies for the Robbnva role. So, I think the deadline should be set on active players, not just when the thread is accepting gameplay.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Daykill: jimfinn

I was just waiting to see who would contribute first.

MOD

, did you notice this post #495. You say nothing has changed, does that account for this. This action should be enforced. It was made in legitimate gameplay. Because you are new for running this game, it must be brought to your attention. Thanks

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Narsis, why are you not voting? That seems odd.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Nacho, why do you not have a kill on jimfinn? You called for it, and it did not happen? Please explain yourself.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Yes. I think Nacho is pulling a trick to avoid voting until he can jump on another case. He won't make his own case, and vote on it.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

This is my last post until Sunday.

This all pisses me off. I have a theory on how all this went down with Nachomamma. I would reveal my theory, but I fear it will expose too much in harming town. So, I remain silent on it for now. If Espeonage is telling the truth about his lie detection on Nacho, then we have to bare this lie. But, maybe he was obligated to tell a lie by the game rules.

VOTE: jimfinn

Narsis is still my equally scum as jimfinn. But, since I will be gone, I want to put my vote where it counts for town. Lynch Jimfinn or Narsis, if you lynch before my return.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

You are not dead until pronounced dead by the MOD. You are targeted to die, but yet the death is unaccomplished.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

That was a fantastic kill on jimfinn. But, too bad he outed out doc. But, to no avail for a Night 2 kill.

VOTE: Narsis

He is scum. I will reread ZeroFang. I am not sure who the third partner is, or if Maddie was.

I think Nacho was the Night one protection. He drew himself as a target by claiming to be a vig day kill. That was my theory, but it would have disclosed the doc.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I never hesitated to lynch Jimfinn. I just was interested in Narsis too, equally.

Locke, this Jimfinn to Narsis comment that you mention. This is the one, right?

Narsis, I was about to not get lynched. What are you doing?

And, how does that convince you that Narsis is town? What was so persuasive about that?

Here is your previous comments on Narsis.

Good points on Narsis. He's lurky and passive, would be up for his lynch if Jim's doesn't go through. I think Tasky responded well to SoW's case and I view SoW stepping back from it as mild town.

Jim: what do you think of Narsis? Who are your top two suspects right now?

And NOW, you are convinced that he is town.

Vote: Shepherd of Wolves

I think the whole way he approached the Jimfinn lynch looks like scum trying not to go after his buddy too hard, then realising Jim wasn't going to post and deciding to go all out with the bussing, while still trying to get Narsis lynched.

Jim's comment to Narsis about that vote makes me think Narsis is town

, so SoW's vote there doesn't help any.

I am starting to think that Locke and Narsis are the two remaining scum.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

LOCKE

You gave no indication yesterday that you had any inclination that Narsis was town.

SoW: your post at the top of this page in particular is the one that pings my scumdar. Jim's suddenly becoming one of your suspects - convenient, considering that Antihero, ZeroFang and myself all now want a Jimfinn lynch - but hey, Tasky still fits in with Jim as scum, so it's ok! As you like connections, I think I can see one there between you and Jimfinn.

Throw in Narsis for good measure and I think we have three likely scum.

Why did you throw Narsis in for good measure at this point? I am bothered that you use jimfinn as your trusted source on Narsis. His lash out changed your mind.

Why are you bothered that I point to two people as suspects? I only have one vote. But, once I did an analysis on Jimfinn, I never changed my mind on him. I knew he was scum. Prior to my analysis of him, I focused primarily on Tasky.

I have coupled my suspects every Day Phase. That is my main style this game. But, if you think that is a problem, tell me why. Scum interact. I think it is worthy to point out multiple suspects, and pursue them individually and in connection. Now you and Narsis are my two. Here is my total current breakdown of the players.

I know I am town. I am convinced that Robbnva (dead without role alignment), Espeonage, and Tasky are town. I am leaning to the belief that Nacho and Antihero are town. I am not sure about ZeroFang. I am leaning that Locke Lamora is SCUM. And, I am convinced that Narsis is scum.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Narsis on jimfinn

:
First off, he attacks his vote as scummy. Repeatedly explaining it was a comparison, distancing himself from attacking him too much. But, still he had called it opportunistic scum

i think perhaps jim's vote looks more like opportunistic scum then the others.

But, next he defends him. And, focusses on connecting himself by another game. The sentiment is WE were town together their, WE are together here too.

1. i've played with jim before, although it's an ongoing game, so let's just say i dont suspect him as much for that.
2. not falling for what about my question?
3. i agree that tunneling that hard isn't the most protown thing, but it does have it's place in protown play. would you rather he didnt push Taz at all and there was a no lynch?

First off, what sparked this post? I could not find the questions that you appear to be answering. Or, are you just making independent comments?

Later he says

all i'm saying is we both acted in similar ways this game as in that ongoing game and in that game we both got suspicion for it and both flipped town

Narsis wanted in on the lynch, when it was inevitable. Why did Narsis not hammer? He says he wanted jim to claim. Jim claims, gets a counter, and then he jumps on. But, he was not eager to be the hammer.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Thanks Freud.

I would rather he did not fake claim, and out our DOC. But, in any case, you never ever ever had a reason to vote him, until it was inevitable. And, you hoped on just because it was not the hammer. Every analysis you made of him, he is in the town category because he played like this with you. Always town, expect the first opportunistic scum.

So, I really think you joined the lynch to APPEAR to be against him. But, you never had a reason, even when you said you are going to hammer.

well yeah i'm not going to until he claims.

Notice, no reason for lynching him. Wait, the only reason was his claim. We did not need him to claim. Really, we knew he was scum. But, maybe that was his way to lead you on, give you a counter claimer. Many reasons you could have worked that plan together. Maybe, you did not plan it, but you saw the benefit of his claim to out PR.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Locke Lamora, you need to claim your alignment. You can not just base it on your replacement. You cannot avoid this.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

@SOW: No there is nothing in my role pm to suggest that.

What are you referring too? I read all my posts for Day 3, and do not see what you are talking about.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

MOD, looks like ZeroFang needs the PROD.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Looks like Nachomamma needs it too.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Speculations I have about 2 nights with no kills.

Scenario 1

First night mafia targets Nacho for claiming day Vig. Espeonage successfully protects. He can only successfully protect the honest. Therefore, Nacho is honest in his town alignment claim.

Second night mafia targets ZeroFang, no apparent reason. Espeonage successfully protects again. Thus confirming his alignment too.

Scenario 2

Night 1 same story as

Scenario 1

Night 2 Mafia want to play with the results of Espeonage, they choose a NO TARGET. ZeroFang is really not confirmed as town, because they tamper with the restriction on Esp.

Scenario 3

Night 1 and 2 are both NO TARGETS. Possible protection against lie detection. Essentially, the idea is, they may have an ability that if they do not kill, they cannot be lie detected. An immunity for sacrificing their Night Kill.

I can see this possibility. But, I think it could be a standing option for every night. Or, maybe an option for a single night. Leading to Scenario 4. If it is a standing option, that would suck for town lie detection. But, give the advantage of NO Night Kills.

Scenario 4

Night 1 same as

Scenario 1

Night 2 using a single immunity protection for the sacrifice of a night kill.

Scenario 5

Town Role blocker. Role blocker successfully prevents Night Kill. This could work for Night 1 and Night 2. This would mean that Nacho would not be 100% cleared by Espeonage.

_______

With 2 MOD kills, we have effectively had 2 NIGHT KILLS, with the loss of information. So, we are just disadvantaged as town. And, with the MOD announcing that would happen during the NIGHT 2 PHASE, the mafia may have decided to NO TARGET just to mess with ESP. They knew they had the advantage with the 2 MOD KILLS.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Narsis, we knew jimfinn was scum, because there was overwhelming evidence. Using that term refers to the evidence in game that convicted him.

If you did not wait for a claim, I would have been more likely to believe you were town. It seems counter logical, but that is the truth. And, it is the truth because he popped up scum. If he flipped town, and you hammered, than I would think different. But, in this case, I really think his scum flip puts your actions in a scum light. Waiting for a claim, and producing no other reason to vote him, reeks of scum to me.

But, my ISO of you also holds as evidence against you.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Locke, who is your second suspect other than me? And, why?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

AntiHero, can you please lay out your case on ZeroFang.

What shows his chainsaw attack, and simultaneous defense?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I think there is a possibility for multiple TOWN PR to have the lie detection restriction described by Espeonage. Therefore, the immunity option at the sacrifice of a kill could balance the mafia against multiple PR roles that are restricted by lie detection. It makes sense that mafia would have some form of defense against lie detection. And, if it disabled the MOST PR for town, then it would have to come at a sacrifice to mafia.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I have done an ISO read on CryMeARiver who was replaced by Locke Lamora. It is consistent with a scum player in my mind. Actually, I think a scum PR possibly.

He had a theory about the "lie detector" role in pre-game. He finally explains the theory in post #66. If he had some sort of mafia PR to block a "lie detector" role, it might suggest its presence in the game. So, if that possible mechanic existed that I suggested, he might have information provided by the MOD that such roles existed.

He explained it by saying that he was talking to a friend. But, he said he had only really seen commercials, and knew the plot. From that comment I do not think he really had much discussion with a friend, or for that matter, got into the depth of conversation that would generate the idea of a human lie detector.

I actually thought of this question when I was discussing the TV show (Lie to Me) with a friend on this site, offsite (sorasgoof), specifically, I mentioned he was like a human lie detector and ergo this question popped up

This does not sound like a reasonable explanation based on the fact that he only had seen some commercials.

Than he goes on to say he already sees town PR. Who can already see TOWN anything at page three? Oh yeah, scum. We do not have him here to explain, so we have to guess as to how he could suggest his knowing. First thing to consider, why was he so interested in actually identifying TOWN PR by the second post of actual game? SCUM are most interested in finding TOWN PR.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, that promotes me to L-2. So, before you put me at L-1 have me claim. If I get to L-1, someone might hammer illogically. If that happens, really look at the hammer.

ZeroFang, you seriously think I would bold and enlarge the text that loudly and ridiculously if I were SCUM. I would be hiding in a corner if I were scum. I would have kept him around to frame on Day 2 rather than be so loud about lynching him Day 1. But, I hope between you, Tasky, and Locke someone will actually attempt to make a case against me. I am waiting to see.

How do you make text ultra-visible?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Narsis

, when I flip town, who is going to be your next suspect? Give us original thoughts from you about who is next. So far, you seem to go after (A) The person attacking you, real WIFOM (B) the most popular pick of the day, and (C) the inevitable lynch of the day.

The point is you had no reason to lynch him, ever, that you actually mentioned. Except that you did not like his claim. Before you join my wagon, which you are preparing to due, by your tone. Lay down a solid case.

And, as far as calling my post useless speculation, why did you pick me versus others that have commented on the subject matter? My speculation is highly valid. You just cannot see it. Maybe, you should actually try to generate original ideas yourself, rather than feeding off others ideas like an ECHO canyon. Explain why it is useless to you, not just saying that it is.

ZeroFang

I see, I made it ultra-visible when I

posted

. I thought you were suggesting that you could make it ultra-visible when

reviewing

to build a case. I thought you were making a suggestion for better reviewing technique.

Where is the rest of your case, that felix is leading you too? You were going to remove your vote unless you posted a case. Why did you lie?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Oh, Narsis, if it had been another player who waited on the hammer, I may not be as convinced. It is only you, that I have a problem with. The fact that you did the, I will wait post, and then joined once the hammer was not yours to have. Finally, jims comment implicates you for this IMO. I know Locke thinks otherwise, but he is my second suspect. So, his opinion on the matter does not sway me.

Normally, what Esp did would look bad. He retracted for no good reason. But, he does not look scummy for it. Because he did it.

I am not going after Zero for his hammer. But, I have not done a full ISO on him. He is my undetermined player, if you read my list.

So, the most reluctant player to vote was you. Reluctance to kill a scum, in conjunction with no personal reason to vote looks really scummy.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I know Narsis will vote me. He is on the verge now. So, that forces me to claim. I cannot afford to have Nacho or Espeonage to vote without a claim. I think Narsis will hammer.

CLAIM

My name

: Agent Ben Reynolds.

My role

: Macho Lie Detector Vig.

Action

: Lie detection kill every Night.

Win Condition

: Threats to town eliminated.

Essentially, I am restricted to only Vig. Killing liars. I have to submit a post by a player. If the player is telling the truth, he lives. If he is lying, he dies.

Night 1 target

: Robbnva

Night 2 target

: Tasky

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Evidence in my posts (Shepherd ISO unless stated otherwise):

Post 6, before anyone demands alignment, or proposes the lie detection role is in the game, I demand Tasky (one of my main suspects Day 1) to claim his alignment.

Tasky

, are you aligned with town in this game? Will you have a favorite experience, or an unfavorite experience?

I think we should vote players for

intra

-game reasons, and not

inter

-game reasons. It does not matter what role they played in another game. It only matters what role they play in this game.

Post 9. I was bothered by Tasky's approach. I felt it would limit my ability to target him.

I constantly defend lie detection powers.
Post 14
Post 54
Post 55
Post 57

I explained my CAREER is to DETECT scum.

If you invalidate my claims with plausible evidence or explanation I would be willing to reevaluate my stance. But, currently, my career is to detect scum, and I feel my reasons have merit.

My defense of Robbnva, after he lived night 1.
I did not want to give away my role, so I suggested I would consider the case on Robbnva in post 64.
I denied his case on Robbnva in post 72.
Post 74. I listed Robbnva as possibly town. Placing him in town, but hiding my knowledge.
Post 84. I say

There is no real case to point that Robb is scum. So, I assume here to put him in the more likely town for evaluating the wagon, to narrow down suspects. He actually posted a legitamite case for his vote, unlike Narsis and jimfinn.

Post 111. I go out of my way to mention Robbnva is town. And, I do not even mention Maddie/Mokujin. This was to really stand out of place.

I know I am town. I am convinced that Robbnva (dead without role alignment), Espeonage, and Tasky are town. I am leaning to the belief that Nacho and Antihero are town. I am not sure about ZeroFang. I am leaning that Locke Lamora is SCUM. And, I am convinced that Narsis is scum.

Notice, I all the sudden though tasky in my list of town. He was always suspect to me until Day 3. And, I used CONVINCED town, LEANING town, NOT SURE about alignment, and CONVINCED scum. My strongest Convince included my targets, Robbnva and Tasky. And, Espeonage because he explained the restriction of lie detector perfect to form.

Re-look at Post 84. I offer myself as a martyr. I state it will help town loose, because I am better than a regular cop. I get alignment, and kill ONLY liars, who lie about being town.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me. But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement. But, I assure you, I am town. And, my lynch will not profit a town victory.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I was questioning your case on Robbnva. So, I wanted to confirm him, but I was not sure if he was scum or town. Especially when he was on TAZARO who flipped TOWN. I knew I was town, so I wanted to check him, because he was on a town player who flipped.

I targeted Tasky because, I was convinced that you were scum. But, you lived. So, I am convinced that you are town.

My results cannot be tampered with like Espeonage. UNLESS, scum has a lie detection block. I thought that the no night kill could be a sacrifice to prevent me and Espeonage. I think that would be incredibly unbalanced towards SCUM if they could do it every night. So, I do not think it is realistic. But, It could be one explanation for both me and Espeonage getting no clear results. Because it seems unlikely that Esp was successful both nights. Less likely for Night 2 especially.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

ok so those are your targets. tasky must have been telling the truth since he's still alive. so why is your vote on him?

I am voting for you. I do not know what you are talking about.

Look at post 625 for VOTE COUNT.
Post 581 is where I placed my vote on you.

Read a little more carefully.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Oh, and I thought Narsis would be easier to lynch than you. I thought and still think he is scum. You on the other hand had too much support as town. So, I thought if you were scum, it would be easier to vig you.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky, so now you are claiming too. Okay. So, why did you focus on me if you had a result on him?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

And, what was your other target?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

How is Tasky supposed to be scum, if I confirm his truth of town alignment. He should be dead.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Is there any reason to let Narsis live? Really.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky,

I am trying to find out if you are even a COP. Why you and me? Why you without a lie detector restriction? Furthermore, I am trying to understand why you think you were even at risk dying after MY claim. That just sounds completely out of place.

By cryptography, sending secret messages in open thread? Is there a tool for this, or just a structure.

Why would I send you the result and not Espeonage? But, I am not sure sending it public will be good incase there is a role block mafia.

But, all this leads to my idea about the sacrifice. I am not sure that my results and Espeonage results are completely accurate if there is a villain so powerful as to sacrifice NIGHT KILLS for LIE PROTECTION. The main reason I think this is due to the 2 nights with NO KILL. Night 2 makes the most sense in the matter. And, if that is the case, how can I just trust you.

I am waiting for more comments from more players. But, I think ZeroFang is possible scum according to the my results, and not TASKY. But, I think Narsis is for sure scum. And, we should lynch him. I favor Locke as scum over Zero.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I think Narsis is scum, and Locke Lamora.

We have to assume my results are clear, and use that to our best play.

Tasky is clear.
Espeonage is clear.
Nachomamma is clear.
ZeroFang is most likely clear.
I am clear.

Not clear are
Narsis
Locke Lamora
AntiHero

That is all eight players. Two PRs. Two Three lie detected roles. Two no Night Kills. Three unconfirmed. I am banking on Locke and Narsis as scum.

These are the first three that need to be seriously considered. Then we need to calculate days. Finally, I have no less than 1 more Night Kill. If we lynch scum today we have 50% chance my target is scum. If not, you lynch my NON-Targeted player.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I said mostly clear only because Espeonage did a scan on him. But, his scan could have been faulty if mafia chose a NO KILL. The only reason I assume they did attempt to kill is the lose of a mafia goon.

But, they may not have attempted to mess with the results AND because they got 2 MOD kills during the night phase. That leveled out the game to their ADVANTAGE. It is more like we started a 10 player game more than anything. EXCEPT, the role balance was altered.

I suppose Zero is 50/50. So, we need a good analysis on those 4 players. Locke and Narsis have an easy analysis.

But, Locke if you cared about my PR claim, why did you not UNVOTE? Do you still think I am your suspect?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I think Narsis is scum. I think that one of the Lightman group could be scum. Nothing says they are not.

But, if you want to let him live, let us lynch Locke. Especially for not unvoting me. That should have been his first action in this situation.

We have four suspects.
And four confirmed town.
We have, at most, two scum. So, we have 50% chance to hit one today.
If we are successful at lynching scum, I have a 33% chance of hitting one in the night.
If we are not successful, I have a 67% chance.

If two scum die, we win.
If one scum dies by lynch or Night Vig. We have a 33% chance to lynch one more tomorrow.

WE have 8 players.
tomorrow we will have 6 or 5.
Or, by some miracle we will have 7, not likely for three nights no mafia kill.

With six alive and one less scum. That is 5 to 1.
With 5 alive and one less scum. That is 4 to 1.
In either case, you will only have 2 suspects. Because one SUSPECT will be dead. The other suspect will be verified dead or alive as my target. That is 50/50 on our suspects being scum.
The only thing that can alter my results is a MAFIA ROLE BLOCKER. In that case the odds are 25/75 to hitting the right suspect. But, we have to put some faith into my VIG KILL attempt. That is one of the best shots we have.

We need analysis of the four suspects. Fresh up to date analysis. And, we need to look at jimmfinn for clues. We have just until Monday. I can not possibly do all of these. But, I think if each of the confirmed players did an analysis, it would be good.

If I cannot get support against Narsis, will you all support a LOCKE kill. Read him and CRYMEaRIVER. If Narsis is not lynchable today, I think our best second target is LOCKE. OPINIONS PLEASE.

VOTE: LOCKE

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

And, each unconfirmed player should do an analysis too.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Who said everyone was given a flavor-safe NAME claim? That means your NAME CLAIM is BS, Narsis. You should be tomorrows lynch.

Locke, you think I am scum. You must reREAD, and post your reason. But, you should also be todays lynch, because you are scum. If you are not power scum, then NARSIS is. Let LOCKE CLAIM. Kill Narsis tomorrow.

SCUM must have a way to counteract lie detection. So, hopefully, we lynch the MAFIA PR today.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

So, your role state every one gets a safe claim? Why would the MOD tell YOU that every one aside from you has a safe claim? Why would any one player be told those things about ALL other players?


Who is everones number 1 suspect for tomorrow?
Give 3 reasons please. Such information is vital for my night selection. Do this before the hammer. If a player hammers before most people get a chance really consider them tomorrow.

If the hammer comes premature, I will either vig kill ZEROFANG or Narsis. Any prefs or objections? I hope to make it clear before the hammer. If I do not CLARIFY before the the hammer. Do your best to choose the ONE that I VIGGED.

I do highly suspect I will make it through the night. There is a absolute way I can stay alive through the night. But, I will not tell you how it works. I do not want Scum to know how I can do that.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

So, Tasky, you have narrowed down your suspects to AntiHero and ZeroFang. Please explain better.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

ZeroFang was my target.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

If there is a roleblocker on the mafia, this does not mean much. But, if they have a role blocker, why would they have no Night Kill on Night 2? They could have blocked the Doctor.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

If all my results are accurate, that would leave us with Antihero and Narsis.

I was highly torn. I almost selected Antihero. He just seems too good for town to be true. He seems too confident. But, I am really torn on Narsis. I do think he has been acting very scummy. And, I do not think his SAFE claim really means he is not scum. I think he needs to give us a real claim, not a SAFE claim. It is strange that he focussed so much on the SAFE claim concept.

I really thought I was going to be gone for today. The fact they chose the cop means they did not want him to protect me. And, that would indicate they can not select a person to block. Otherwise, I would expect them to block him and target me. There is a good possibility we only have one more goon left. Maddie could have been mafia aligned.

Look, all the people I lead out on have been pro-town. That really sucks. I had an equal feeling on jimfinn. But, I did not lead out on it. I had a strong case on him, in my mind. Antihero was the one who has called it out clear on everyone. That is why I think he is TOO town. He is just TOO accurate. How can he be so, right on the dime?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Maybe you are right, a PERFECT lier who cannot be killed via Night Kills. That would suck. But, that would also put Tasky and ZeroFang back on the table for consideration. Robbnva is out of the game. And, I do not know how both of them could be protected. Unless, it was a mafia doc or mafia role blocker. But, the role blocker seems out of place on the TOWN DOC kill.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

You are right that it is a type of MYLO. But, if I can get a successful Night kill, we can have another chance. But, the best thing would be to lynch a mafia member today.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

If you are going to claim that I am scum, you better post a case on it. You need to account for my CLAIM.

It is easy to see that they killed the Dr. so they could guarantee a kill on me tomorrow. That indicates, they are more likely to have a PERFECT LIAR over a role blocker. But, ZeroFang was targeted 2 nights, one as protected, the next as a kill. So, with my results and Espeonages results, it would seem reasonable to believe he is town. That would mean, a better choice for PERFECT LIAR would be TASKY.

Plus, notice how TASKY was intereted to see if my MACHO status prevented my from being protected?

I know Narsis will vote me. He is on the verge now. So, that forces me to claim. I cannot afford to have Nacho or Espeonage to vote without a claim. I think Narsis will hammer.

CLAIM

My name

: Agent Ben Reynolds.

My role

: Macho Lie Detector Vig.

Action

: Lie detection kill every Night.

Win Condition

: Threats to town eliminated.

Essentially, I am restricted to only Vig. Killing liars. I have to submit a post by a player. If the player is telling the truth, he lives. If he is lying, he dies.

Night 1 target

: Robbnva

Night 2 target

: Tasky

does macho mean you can't be protected?

this is a awfully strong role. sorta only-mafia-killing-vig.
I definitely do not want to lynch you. if you are lying, we will soon find out.
UNVOTE: <------ everybody do this.
why did you choose those targets?

I did not answer his question. I ignored it. But, later I stated,

So, your role state every one gets a safe claim? Why would the MOD tell YOU that every one aside from you has a safe claim? Why would any one player be told those things about ALL other players?


Who is everones number 1 suspect for tomorrow?
Give 3 reasons please. Such information is vital for my night selection. Do this before the hammer. If a player hammers before most people get a chance really consider them tomorrow.

If the hammer comes premature, I will either vig kill ZEROFANG or Narsis. Any prefs or objections? I hope to make it clear before the hammer. If I do not CLARIFY before the the hammer. Do your best to choose the ONE that I VIGGED.

I do highly suspect I will make it through the night. There is a absolute way I can stay alive through the night. But, I will not tell you how it works. I do not want Scum to know how I can do that.

I think he took this to mean I was protectable.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Good call. I am willing to make the sacrifice of no lynch for a vig shot. But, I think we should consult about it before jumping to make it myself. I have not personally targeted a mafia member.

I think it is important to discuss the issue of the Perfect Liar. Because, it needs to be settled. We do not know there is only a goon left. It could be a two mafia setup. So, you could be distracting us. I think you could be possible scum. You are confirmed by the DOC. But, he is not as powerful in confirming as I am. For instance, MAFIA could no kill just to mess with his results. AND, they may have information from the MOD to that affect. So, they could have just messed with the NO KILL and tripped up his results. So, you are suspect because of that. I am not buying your DISTRACTION.

One possibility I have been considering is that MAFIA need to make a FAKE ROLE claim. They need to make a lie. The two players that stick out are NACHO and TASKY. It fits in with the lying theme. They may be required to make a lie. I think the MOD was intending for us to CATCH people in a lie. He may not have wanted us to focus so much on the ALIGNMENT claims. SO, I THINK WE SHOULD CONSIDER NACHO for my NIGHT KILL. And, if he pops up SCUM, then lynch TASKY. I think that SCUM could be required to lie about their ROLE in thread. SO, Nacho needs to be our test for that.

People investigate that idea further please. Lets talk about it.

People who I have not targeted with my vig kill.

Nacho (Highly suspected for his lie. I think it was required by the MOD for MAFIA. That way the lie detectors could detect.)
Antihero

People I have targeted.

Robbnva
Tasky (Possible Godfather. He lied too about being a cop. He did it hypothetically, but possible. Less likely than NACHO.)
ZeroFang

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, it was speculation. And, it bothers me that Narsis is so against such speculation against MAFIA. He did not whimper when town PR was speculated about. Such as the lie detection. Sure, he was not posted until page 5. But, he could have pointed that out than.

Look. It makes sense that Mafia would be required to lie specifically about ROLE claims. Especially if he GAVE everyone a SAFE claim as Narsis points out. Here is why. In my PM he goes through a lot of effort to discribe quoting statements that are verifiable by him. AND, if he did not expect a mass ALIGNMENT claim, he would have designed LIES into the game. It is very logical. Maybe, there was a time table for stating lies. Just cause Jimfinn did not get to it. Owe wait, he did. He claimed cop. So, what BS.

Nacho is not confirmed by Espeonage 100%. My lie detections are far superior because they have a FORCED result. Espeonage could have had MOOT results by mafia CHOOSING a no kill. That means, Nacho is not confirmed.

Tasky and ZeroFang are the most likely confirmed players.

@NARSIS: You put me in the unconfirmed area. WHY? Read my evidence post right after my claim and counter it.
@TASKY: One time Night tracker? Interesting.

VOTE: NACHO

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

EBWOP:

Owe = Oh,

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Jimfinn claim was actually DOC.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

How else would MAFIA counter lie detection? Do you think they are all vanilla mafia?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

This is a hard position. I think we should rely on my results. I think it is our best tool to judge.

That confirms me, Tasky, & Zero.
Nacho is partially confirmed, but I really think I have a valid point on crafting in required lies. This is primarily due to my role PM.
Narsis and Anti are unconfirmed.

If we kill one scum of two deaths, we have 3 town to one scum tomorrow. I say we lynch anti. If he flips town, I kill Narsis. If he flips scum, I kill Nacho. And who ever is living, and does not flip, you all lynch. 2 town 2 scum with no success in killing scum means we loose. That assume 2 scum. If we have only one scum my plan kills all three suspects.

I think we have more reason to kill anti than Narsis. Anti is too confident in his reads. Narsis is tied in flavorwise with Tasky.

However, I am highly convinced of my lie requirement. The bad must have some requirement to lie so as to be discovered.
I cannot imagine why scum would no kill. It could be to the huge lack of play. They may have felt to take out an active player could harm them. To kill an inactive player would not help eliminate real threats. There are several good reasons. And if anti flips scum and we do not win, it would be easy to see that he defended his partner by diverting attention away.

In any case, anti is the best lynch.

unvote. Vote: antihero

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I am Ben Reynolds.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I feel like Zero could be a God Father, but how is it better to trust that suspicion than to trust my result. To me, my results seem the best evidence. Everyone seems scummy to some degree. I do not know a better way to decode it.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, we will now know. I hope that my kill reads are accurate. I hope we have lynched scum. If so, I am going to Vig Nacho. If not I am going to vig Narsis. Do as you need to tomorrow. Nacho if Anti is SCUM will by my target. Narsis will be my target if Anti is TOWN.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I hope to live through the night. But, I do not expect it.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Zero, what is your role claim?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

SoW - Lie Detection Vig Kill
Tasky - One time Tracker
Anti - VT
Narsis - VT

Zero - ?
Nacho - ? (fake claimer - not real)

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

That last one was the claims in clear fashion. Zero and Nacho need to add claims in.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Okay, sorry.

So, I was just thinking, if you are absolutely convinced of a GF Mafia, I think you all should lynch Zero tomorrow. Only if you are convinced of that. He did not play at all today, to avoid having to deal with anything. Just a thought. You all will have to decide. But, I think there is a good chance he is actually the GF especially if Anti flips TOWN.

Either ZERO, or NACHO are the GF for MAFIA

. That is my recommendation. Because if Anti flips town, then Narsis will be tested and confirmed or dead by me.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I knew I should have gone for Nacho. I just knew he was guilty. But, we should have saturated the game with more lies to detect. I was not expecting that they would have to choose the same targeted post. I really should have considered that further, but did not.

I was really questioning ZeroFang, but what was I to do? He successfully blocked me.

Out guessing the MOD is essential to this victory, but it must be done correctly. But, if town fights it then rather than contribute to it, it makes it less likely to unravel.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Also, I was not buying that they had no reason for Night Kills. I figured there was a strategy for it. Now we all know there was.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I do not know. Sorry. I did nothing but confuse the game. It was a poor performance on my part. But, I was close on Nacho. I should have just went for him.

My problem was selecting the obvious lie. I needed to select something else. But, How was I supposed to know. I knew something was wrong, I just did not know what.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I think we would have possibly had better chances if we did not loose two town players to inactivity. Especially because I confirmed Robbnva. But, I was starting to question all my targets.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, the DOC was designed to be tampered with. And, the Vig obviously got tampered with too. I think the Vig was reasonable to a small extent, but the DOC was not. Too many ways the town PR confused the game towards a scum win and not towards a town win. There was no way to know that you had to out guess the MAFIA on selecting a LIE. That made the Mafia too powerful. Especially with three mafia. Town really had little to no power once the Vig was out in the open, and had to choose wether to say his target or not.

BTW, if I designed the game, I would have forced the SCUM to lie. And, I would have HINTED that the PR needed to be THOUGHTFUL in selecting a LIE to detect.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I know town forces a lie. But, I would force a PR role lie, or something that would make the town PR roles more effective. But maybe it would be only one living MAFIA has to make the lie. As long as he lives, none of the others have to make the PR lie. I think it would give some extra challenge for MAFIA and make the town PR more meaningful.