Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful (Game Over)

Kast · Post Post #1200 (isolation #0) » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:22 am

Did not receive role PM yet, but confirming that I will be replacing in. Halfway through with re-read. I'll refrain from any more posts til I've caught up AND received a role PM.

Kast · Post Post #1204 (isolation #1) » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:48 pm

Okay, catch up post to follow then a summary post (catch up was already written as I read but prior to opening my role PM, summary will be written after the catch up is posted).

But since it seems important:
I am Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams, System Alliance Sharpshooter. I have a two-shot night kill which was used N1 on Neto and N2 on Muffin. Shotty was telling the truth.

Kast · Post Post #1205 (isolation #2) » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:49 pm

D1 case on Robo was complete BS. Major +scum on Netopalis for excessive misrepresentation. In general, the irrational but very opportunistic attacks on Robo sound like scum looking for an excuse. This fits well if he expected his buddy to deal a finishing blow and end the day early.

@Muffin-
Sounds fake. Contextual posts also feel like distancing/bussing a weaker teammember.

@MoI-
Goodpost. Disagree with the vote analysis. Timing indicates Millar was waiting for someone to place an "effective" L-1 so he could "hammer". If there's a buddy helping him, Neto's vote is the most probable one.

@Neto-
I bet you're hating having Millar as a buddy.

Tag team mafia action.

@Ythan-
Didn't have much of a read but this made me realise I disagree with the guy on a lot of theory, but I'm getting a semi-active town who doesn't know any better read. Not a weak player, but not the go-to guy for analysis.

@Kdub-
Playing a careful game (as normal). Pretty reasonable on the whole so far.

@Fur-
Reads like a weak player. If town, scum will likely aim a mislynch at this guy.

@MoI-
Taking Millar more seriously than needs to be done... Could just be trying to be thorough...
You're also harping on something that's easily understood. His claim doesn't prove him town. He's admitted it already; it does make him a bad lynch for D1. You pushing this despite that isn't productive.

Side note: given the limited/delayed reveals, game balance argues town has investigative or informational roles.

@Spyrex-
You make games interesting, both as a player or a mod. Return to this thought on successful (or not) execution of proposal.

@Robo-
Typical town overestimating his own value. Claimed detective OR detective's claimed target are the obvious NKs (assuming they are town).
This child was deprived. Or he's a liar.
Bad play.

@iec-
Not getting a strong read on iec.

Didn't note if you were the first to propose this crap case, but if you are, it's complete BS to assume Tanya is a fake claim for Kerrigan.

Spoiler: The Tanya claim fits.

@Muffin-
Getting cold feet about your bus?

@D2 Opening-
Robo don't be an idiot. Furcolow's hammer, despite not waiting for a claim, is indicative of town if anything. Agreed the Spyrex death sounds like the scum NK, especially given his soft claiming.

@Ythan-
Lol, did you miss the memo on the theme of this game? Also, did you consider that Fur may have investigated you last night

like he said he was going to?

Separate note, on reading your D2 posts you seem unreasonably upset.

@Fur-
Very interesting. I'm going to have to think about the likelihood that a delayed reveal game would also allow scum to mess with town information abilities.

@Ythan-
I hope resorting to personal attacks isn't your idea of appropriate play. It isn't.

@Muffin-
You'd be more serious and plausible if you didn't pull this out of thin air. As it is, reads like a manufactured wall of text PBP. Not buying this. I agree that Ythan has made some completely nonsensical posts, and his grasp of mafia theory is far lacking...but you aren't really showing he is scum, and more importantly, if you really took issue with so much of his posting, then why was there no mention of this in previous days?

@Lol @Global RB and it's debunking.

@Robo-
Why would you target Fur?

Later post makes this not so weird.

@MoI-
The question to BV makes no sense. It's a logical line of thinking that YOU started. Two players targetted the same person and both their abilities failed. The person targetted also has his abilities blocked (and stolen). If they are telling the truth, the obvious explanation is a jailkeeper on Fur (potentially a jailkeeper who steals powers).

Speculation: MoI stole Fur's role cop power and used it to investigate Shotty. Realized Shotty can kill and assumed scum.

This explains the incredulity at BV assuming Fur was untargetable.

@Iec-
Neto's play was opportunistic and, if you actually follow his reasoning, erratic (disjoint). He was an EXCELLENT vig target and I'm really happy that my predecessor killed him. I'd have taken the exact same shot.

@Fur-
Some agreement. Ythan's posts D2 are extremely rude in general. A lot of what he's posted doesn't belong in any friendly mafia game. You're perfectly fine not making yourself respond to that and making it clear why you aren't responding. If Ythan wants a response, there's an easy way to fix it. At that point, I'd expect to see you answer.

Robo describes a classic actress or prostitute roleblock. It has nothing to do with his maturity. That's an irrelevant personal shot that is hypocritical coming in the same paragraph you object to Ythan's behavior.

Millar is a bad player by conventional standards. He's better as scum than as town, but that's mostly since his buddies can gain points by bussing him.

Ythan wrote:which makes no sense that I can even imagine, is terrible play.

Your inadequacies as a mafia player are no reason to suspect another player.

@Robo-
I should have addressed this sooner, but Robo is right that his ability makes him almost definitely town. Increased lynch threshold is typically a town power since it autowins almost every endgame scenario for scum (especially if he can also grant it to others, but since that's not demonstrated we'll leave that aside). Scum can easily trump it by killing the townie, and in a vig heavy game it might be feasible as a scum power, but we don't have any evidence to indicate that.

@Kdub-
Dislike the lurking. Post more please.

@MoI-
Non-VT game suggestion with BP as a balancing move is plausible.

@Iec-
Good post. Very solid analysis.

MoI wrote:If you believe millar was scum do you think Muffin would bus as hard as happened Day 1 with millar? He put together a rather large post attacking him and was on millar’s ass all Day.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Muffin's early vote and later justification of that vote sounds like a bus. The confidence in his attacks immediately after the ZR is striking and (imo) telling.

@Muffin-
Interesting claim. I have a strong scum read on Muffin, but a blatant cop claim is...not something that should be lynched. Strong questions on why investigate Robo though...

Btw- mafia false claiming cop should be

expected

in any format where death does not reveal affiliation.

@Ythan-

Without thinking, this guy wrote:If you're town be glad that we have sure scum in the morning.

@N2,N3,D4-
No deaths is great, except that Muffin should have died.

Again, jailkeeper possibility rises, but the flavor claim that it was passively self hiding (as opposed to someone pushing her into a closet) makes it odd.

@Iec-
This is not as confusing as you're making it out to be. Muffin isn't claiming a separate investigative power (which would be a revisionist scum-tell of fake claiming), he's obviously claiming that Lara's flavor assumes sanity due to some item (artifact/object/whatever), but after the failure with Chun Li, she realizes she doesn't have the item that assures sanity. It's still kinda questionable.

Night 1 – I stole Furcolow’s ability. I wanted to confirm his claim that he was an Ability cop. His powers derive from a pair Binoculars that allow him to Observe someone and determine their powers. I used this power to observe Neto Night 1. Neto’s main ability was Grapple Beam. This ability could be used on a player. That player would be immune from ANY night abilities that targeted them directly. Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target. Neto targeted Spyrex Night 1. Thus I also got to observe Spyrex’s power. Spyrex could ‘Hack the System’ to determine the number of Evil players on a lynch.

This needs some confirmations.
-Fur, please confirm whether your ability is what MoI stated.
-Muffin, confirm that your abilities come from an IDD.

-

@Mod

, please confirm the results of the following two hypothetical roles and night choices:

Hypothetical Role wrote:Each night you may pick a target player. Any abilities that target you will also be used on the target.

Standard Vig wrote:Each night you may pick a target player to kill. Your kill flavor is "shot".

Code: Select all

Hypothetical Role targets Vanilla Townie 1. Standard Vig targets Hypothetical Role. Nobody else takes any night actions.

SituationA:

Code: Select all

Following Day Begins With:
Hypothetical Role was Shot
Vanilla Townie 1 was Shot

SituationB:

Code: Select all

Following Day Begins With:
Hypothetical Role was Shot
Vanilla Townie 1 was killed (in a different manner from Shot)

Based on MoI's claim about Grapple Beam providing targetting immunity

and copying effects to the target

, BUT having the result that Neto and Spyrex died in DIFFERENT manners, conclusion is that MoI is lying about the Grapple Beam.

For that matter, Grapple Beam sounds like a scum ability; he can protect a suspected buddy from investigations (and anything else) or make himself investigate as innocent (as his target).

From redundancy perspective, Fur is essentially a confirmed role cop, MoI's claim is essentially a role cop + blocker + gets to use the person's ability. Balance issues much?

The claim about Muffin seems to hold...somewhat. It's reading like MoI is a jailkeeper/ability thief. This explains why BV failed to target Fur. This explains how Muffin survived but was also blocked. There is likely an additional scum team member with role blocking abilities who coordinated with MoI to initially block Robo and then block Muffin.

-I will confirm that Mod informed me that Shotty took no action on N3, but his kills were as he stated and he told the truth that his kill was a 2-shot that is now unusable.

Muffin wrote:You know that might also explain why millar came back in to the thread multiple times with "FU FURC"-type posts. Pissed off for getting bussed so hard?

If this is true, (or if Millar was trying to help his team by implying that) then he should be punished and his team should potentially also be punished. I don't think it's actually true. That's a very fitting thing based on his past behavior.

@Muffin-
Why did you investigate MoI and why did you investigate Robo?

@Iec-

Iec wrote:I think it's unlikely that MoI is scum. He looked like the most obvtown player in the game for me, and there was no kill the night I protected him.

This is bad town play. You need to look at and evaluate MoI based on the objective claimed information, instead of ignoring the objective information in favor of subjective "pro-town play". Goodposting can come from scum if they are goodplayers. It is scum's BEST defense. Evaluate the objective information.

@MoI-

2. Day 2 is the perfect time for a Mafian to claim the Neto kill as a Vig. It was the sole reason I floated the idea. I knew Spyrex wasn’t a direct Mafia kill. If Shotty is Mafia who made the kill then claiming he Vigged Neto prevents a Track / Watch result from screwing him. He could then claim limited shot and have his partner(s) make future kills.

This is a bit hard to believe. If true, then you had no reason not to get suspected mafia-Shotty lynched. Conversely, if you are mafia this makes perfect sense as you identify the vig, setup for a future mislynch, and find out who the vig suspects so you know whether you have to worry about him or not.

Kast · Post Post #1207 (isolation #3) » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:09 pm

Summary:
I agree with Shotty's target choices, and, until hearing MoI's claim, Muffin would have been my top suspect for today. I'm assuming he tried to kill Muffin because he suspected him.

The problem with this town failing to see the reasons for killing Neto illustrates that most of this town is easily taken in by apparently rational play and attempts to "help" the town. Neto was opportunistic and irrational in his early D1 play. He was almost as bad as Ythan, minus the cursing and personal insults.

– bv310: Not much to say on BV, he's a semi-active player as is. His claim to have been blocked when targetting Fur lends support to MoI as a jailkeeper/power stealer.
– Furcolow: Hammering Millar clears him. MoI confirming his power also helps, though it also damns MoI. It means there are two rolecops in this game, a 2 shot full role cop and a role+flavor cop+RB+Ability Thief. For balance purposes this is unlikely.
– Iecerint: Claim is plausible. Follows MoI a bit too much. Please do some analysis on the objective claims and events of the game so far, then repost thoughts.
– Kdub: Semi-active though nothing extreme. I dislike the lurking. PoE leaves him as the most likely straight up role-blocker. Debatable on whether this would be scum or town who has just been helping scum inadvertently.
– MagnaofIllusion: The claim about the Grapple Beam has a hole. There's no way RC would make a kill flavor mistake; if you've played with him or even just looking at the rich flavor in this game, it's clear that an ability as MoI claimed would copy the kill AND it's kill flavor.
– Muffin: His D1 play strongly indicated a Millar bus, as did his "bad" investigation result. Inexplicably surviving Shotty's NK is another odd point. However, if MoI is scum, it seems very unlikely that Muffin is also scum.

Vote: MoI

Preview Edit:
I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.

Kast · Post Post #1208 (isolation #4) » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:15 pm

Also:

You lose +like points when you refrain from claiming immediately. Just sayin.

This is ridiculous. As mod can confirm, my post in here to let you all know I was replacing was just a courtesy to you all and done prior to me getting a role PM or finishing a read on the thread.

It's a disservice that would discourages and punishes replacement players.

@Mod and all-
As noted in sig, I'll be VLA this and pretty much every weekend. If you have additional thoughts or questions, post them and I'll answer on Monday.

@Iec-
Please share reactions to discrepancy between MoI's claim about Grapple Beam and difference in kill flavors.

Kast · Post Post #1238 (isolation #5) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:54 am

@Iec-
-Not sure why it matters what I think about claim order; MoI is obv-scum from his lie about N1.
-Post-game, you should seriously rethink your response to replacement players. Claiming that a mod confirmed replacement who hasn't even received a role is scummy for waiting to receive his role before confirming that role is absolutely ridiculous. It's also just plain terrible play for a townie to replace in and immediately claim without reading or catching up. That said, I don't get any scummy reads from your reaction; it reads like you just aren't looking at things from an objective PoV and probably don't have much experience with an appropriate handling of such a situation.

@Iec/BV-
BV: To be clear, you are claiming MoI used his second ability (N3) on you and it confirms him as town to you. Is this correct? If it does not actually confirm MoI, then please clarify. Regardless, please share your thoughts on the discrepancy I raised.
Iec: Correct and agreed. However, if your post is a response to BV, then you might want to reread BV's post; he isn't referring to the Thief ability.

@Muffin-
You should read all posts in context. You do it in some instances but ignore that where it suits; you can probably improve your game with more consistency.
-Your attack on millar is entirely consistent with a bus. It isn't "reaching" or "grasping". Telling us you would do something different if you were scum is an invalid defense.
-Agreed that you only found Ythan scummy after the interplay. That's what I called you out for (lulz). You went from almost no comment to suddenly finding every single post from Ythan to be lacking and/or indicative of him being scum. It's obviously a case of forcing an interpretation to fit your suspicion; INSTEAD OF forming a conclusion based on the evidence. If you really took so much issue with Ythan's posts, then it makes no sense that you would say absolutely NOTHING about it prior to your decision that he was scum.
--And lol at weak straw man. I posted my thoughts of Ythan; he is not a logical/rational player, and he resorts to emotion and personal attacks for pushing his cases. He is not very effective at scumhunting; I explicitly agreed with you about that (you even quoted it

). That does not show him to be scum. Do you expect irrational/constant appeal to emotion/constant ad hom players to be good at scum hunting? I don't (it would be nice if they turned out to be) and certainly didn't expect anything from Ythan.
-Read more carefully.
--I never stated that your play being consistent with scum play means you are scum. Showing that something is not a reason to dismiss a possibility does not mean it is a proof of that possibility. Logic fail.
--Pay attention to context. Regardless, you have not been the most clear. To be clear, the flavor of your investigation ability was not originally tied to the IDD; on night 2 you were informed of the IDD being gone as part of the flavor for not being able to investigate. Is that correct, and if not, please elaborate. Ultimately, the point of the question is to gauge whether MoI's claim is consistent with what you know. Is it or is it not?
--I don't think you are scum now. Pay attention. You'll seriously improve your game if you realize that conclusions should be formed

based on evidence

instead of evidence interpreted

based on preconceptions

. If you read through a game and a player has 5 notable events, 4 of which indicate probable scum, but 1 of which proves the player is not scum, the rational (read=correct) move is to conclude the player is NOT scum. Conversely, if a player is acting in an entirely pro-town manner, but has an objective contradiction that shows they are lying scum, then the right thing to do is lynch the scum.

@MoI-
Given that rules state this is a Limited/

Delayed

reveal game and we have already seen that the delayed reveal shows true affiliation, your argument holds no merit. The attempt to lynch me is an obvious attempt to get rid of the vig before we see Neto's flip.
-Explain why you targeted Neto.
-Explain why you chose to steal/block a cop instead of block/confirming someone you claim to strongly believe was scum.
-Neto and Fur have clear differences in playstyle. Neto's votes are inconsistent with his claims to be a logical player and actual play which showed more rational capabilities outside of his single-minded and opportunistic ones.
-It's straight forward vote analysis. Just because you can't understand it doesn't make that a valid dismissal. You can tell us you don't understand how 1 + 1 = 2, but that doesn't make it any less true.
-Claiming mod flavor indicates number of remaining scum is ridiculous. Kill flavor is a GAME MECHANIC, not meaningless flavor. You are reaching.
-Your claim that "destroyed" is "generic kill flavor" likely betrays inside knowledge on scum kill method. Nothing indicates this anywhere else or in any way. It also goes against your initial claim of abilities being copied on the grapple beam target.
--Your claiming that the grapple beam doesn't actually copy abilities and you were just paraphrasing is an obvious revision after having your botched false claim pointed out.

@Muffin-
You realize a vig kill is different from a lynch yes? Early game, town shouldn't lynch claimed cops (or claimed docs); especially not on D1. Allowing that provides scum with excuses for engaging in and encouraging bad game play.
Vigs should absolutely kill their top suspects, even more so if it's a target the town as a whole is unlikely to lynch.

Kast · Post Post #1239 (isolation #6) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:05 am

There is something else I want to share, but going to wait on ok from RC whether I am allowed to share this.

Kast · Post Post #1240 (isolation #7) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:39 am

Ok, so RC didn't initially give me the actual PMs between himself and Shotty. I asked for those and just got them now. Some things based on those:

-Shotty tried to kill Muffin due to being suspicious about the investigation result on Chun Li.

-Shotty received a Night 2 Results PM which included flavor that stated Chun Li's room had an evil smell, though Chun Li herself had nothing evil or anything that indicated her of being evil.
--It also stated that there was an Asian girl sleeping outside Shotty's room.
--It also stated that someone had noticably visited Muffin's room prior to Shotty going there.
---Shotty made a loud metallic click sound on arriving at Muffin's room.
---Something made a sound after Shotty attempted to kill Muffin.

Kast · Post Post #1241 (isolation #8) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:58 am

@Robo Wagon Analysis-
Looking at the timing of the votes, Millar was obviously waiting for someone to place the (effective) L-1 vote. It is implausible that scum would simply L-1, Hammer, ZR. Regardless of whether the scum team planned the ZR to end the day early or whether Millar was taking action on his own, Millar and Fur's votes were too close and it is implausible that scum would place votes so close and essentially guarantee that they both come under fire and have increased suspicion as a result.

Neto's vote was also the one that clearly turned the wagon from a random wagon (BV & Shotty) to a serious wagon; prompting an additional vote. Regardless of what BV or Shotty thought about Robo, their initial votes both had weak/non-existent reasoning, and could not be expected to sway others.

Neto's vote was a bit different; Neto played the "frustrated townie" card and abandoned his own self-claimed standard logical/analytical play. This departure, combined with the timing of the vote (making it a feasible lynch given the ZR), reveal an opportunistic attack. The same does not apply to anyone else on the wagon.

Kast · Post Post #1242 (isolation #9) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:06 am

MoI wrote:As Mafia kills are Faction abilities and not role abilities Furc should be able to confirm the exact details of Shotty’s Vig role.

Potential slip. How does MoI know whether a mafia kill is a factional ability or a result of role abilities? This is not something that is always or generally true; particularly not for theme games. This is EVEN LESS likely if he truly believed that mafia have different kill methods with different kill flavors.

Kast · Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:41 am

If you are a vig who thinks the claimed doc is actually scum false-claiming to be doc, then you should shoot him. It's not a difficult concept. It's very basic theory.

Kast · Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:46 am

if I was a vig and my top suspect claimed doc, and there was no counterclaim,

The problem with your hypothetical reveals your general weakness that you've exhibited throughout the game. Upon hearing the counterclaim, you need to evaluate your read of the suspect.
--If the claim mitigates your suspicion, then the player likely will drop below your top suspect. In this case, you should go after whoever your new top suspect is.
--If the claim is implausible, or there are just no other candidates anywhere near as scummy, then your suspect is likely to remain as the top suspect and should still be vigged.

Kast · Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:12 pm

Because vig kills are guaranteed to be fully in control of town AND because allowing vigs to kill their ToC does not give scum leeway to excuse scummy behavior.

Your sarcastic objection is irrelevant to the point.

Kast · Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:27 pm

Such a dismissal would be irrational. Ideal play will not always result in a town win. Claiming that ideal play would result in a net negative situation for town based on private information does not mean the ideal play is no longer ideal.

But you are running away from the basic point: you assert that it is inconsistent for a player to oppose a lynch of a claimed cop, while simultaneously advocating that a vig should night kill the same claimed cop, provided that the vig thinks the claimed cop is actually mafia false-claiming cop. The position is not inconsistent; it follows basic mafia theory.

Kast · Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:31 pm

But for the record, yes, I would "forgive" a player for abandoning the right/logical/rational play, provided the player had shown he was incapable of understanding that play (for any of a number of reasons, e.g lack of ability, stubbornness/arrogance, emotional investment,...).

Kast · Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:56 pm

@Muffin-
Please put winning the game above your pride.
-There is no need to lie. You clearly and unambiguously posted your reason for voting me as a perceived discrepancy between my objection to lynching a claimed cop and my support for Shotty's attempt to vig his top suspect. This is what I responded to explicitly; this is what our entire side dialogue has referenced.

-Ideal play does not ensure nor require ideal results. I am assuming you don't have any experience with game theory (or for whatever reason you are choosing to ignore it), but an ideal strategy is based on what returns the best results in the long term, individual games notwithstanding. As an analogy, imagine a situation in which a player under threat of lynch claims cop and is not counter-claimed. The "ideal" strategy is to not lynch the player. This is the ideal/best/rational/logical/whatever-you-want-to-call-it move regardless of whether the player is *actually* town or mafia. There have obviously been games in which scum false claimed cop. Within those games, the

ideal

play is still the same, even if the results would be bad.

-I do not know why you fail to understand the correct play. I explicitly left it open ended and offered several possible explanations for your failure. You are free to clarify what you do not accept or understand. If you would like me to guess, then please say so clearly.

Again, you are avoiding the main point. If you want to continue discussing theory, I'm going to put any such future responses in spoiler tags as to not let that distract from the game relevant stuff.

Kast · Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:57 pm

@MoI-
-How does pursuing a scummy player not constitute scumhunting?
-Please answer the questions posed to you.

Kast · Post Post #1259 (isolation #17) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:38 pm

@Kdub/BV/Iec-
Note that MoI continues to avoid answering why he would have targeted Neto with the stolen rolecop ability. Read through and see if he posted anything at all indicating suspicion.

Note MoI failed to explain why he would RB a claimed cop instead of RBing someone he strongly suspected of being mafia.

Also, please review Neto's vote for Robo; someone who he obviously had history with and with whom he had played before. Also keep in mind that Neto admitted he understood exactly why Robo was paranoid about him and even provided the explanation for everyone.

Also, BV, consider MoI's claim to have successfully targetted Fur against your attempt to target Fur.

@Muffin-
-If you think I'm misunderstanding or misrepresenting your stated reason for voting, then please clarify/explain.

Spoiler: Muffin's Attempts to Distract

@Iec-
I may have missed posting this, but my guess would be that scum tried to kill Fur (a confirmed role-cop) and failed since he was hiding himself. This would fit with MoI roleblocking our actual cop and not worrying about the nigh confirmed role-cop.

Kast · Post Post #1263 (isolation #18) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:40 pm

@BV-
-I was referring to his initial claim that Grapple Beam copies all abilities targeting the user to the target. This is a discrepancy with the kill flavor of Shot and Destroyed; which implies different causes for death.

-Does MoI's ability confirm he is Rikku (check with mod)?
--Is it possible mod gave a Rikku fake claim with abilities that match both Rikku and some other character?
--Why do you think Rikku cannot be evil?
-What do you think about MoI failing to provide reasons for his claimed targets?

Kast · Post Post #1266 (isolation #19) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:45 pm

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Given that rules state this is a Limited/Delayed reveal game and we have already seen that the delayed reveal shows true affiliation, your argument holds no merit. The attempt to lynch me is an obvious attempt to get rid of the vig before we see Neto's flip.
No, it’s an attempt to lynch scum. And let’s actually reference the rules you were so careful not to quote.
TheMod wrote:This game is limited/delayed reveal.
Character name will be revealed, but you are left to speculate at their alignment, and the true powers they might have possessed
Bolded to show your lack of reading ability.

Mod wrote:
Sarah Kerrigan is revealed to have been the Queen of Blades

Bolded to show your lack of reading ability.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Explain why you targeted Neto.
Because I wanted to see what his abilities were and assess whether they were likely to indicate a Town role. Because as a logical player he would be a strong Town asset.. Precisely the reason you killed him.

You chose to investigate a player because you thought he was pro-town, DESPITE ADAMANTLY REPEATING in game that proving role abilities does not prove affiliation. Please link to a game in which you as town decided to try to investigate and find potential town instead of investigating to find scum.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Explain why you chose to steal/block a cop instead of block/confirming someone you claim to strongly believe was scum.
I chose to steal Muffin’s ability for two reasons.

1. To confirm his claim. The chances of an alignment cop being scum in a mini are practically zero.
2. To prevent Scum (aka you and your partner) from killing / roleblocking him and having Town lose a scan.

-Why wouldn't you stop a kill?
--Why wouldn't you try to confirm suspected vig/scum and if vig control a kill you obviously didn't trust in Shotty's hands?
--Why wouldn't you use the investigation on suspected vig/scum to guarantee lynch (instead of targetting a lurker who wouldn't be in the running for a mislynch anyway)?

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Neto and Fur have clear differences in playstyle. Neto's votes are inconsistent with his claims to be a logical player and actual play which showed more rational capabilities outside of his single-minded and opportunistic ones.
Typical weak scum play – demonize the dead who can’t fight back.

Neto’s play is so superior to Furc’s in every way this game it’s not funny. Continue to attack Neto and champion our own VI as much as you like. It only shows how weak your opinions are.

You aren't addressing any of my content. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:It's straight forward vote analysis. Just because you can't understand it doesn't make that a valid dismissal. You can tell us you don't understand how 1 + 1 = 2, but that doesn't make it any less true.
The lulz. You have no clue what vote analysis is. Vote analysis consists of reviewing a string of votes and counts and looking for patterns. What you are doing consists of “Derp he’s scum because I say so.”

To those reading – note that complete weakness of his position that he resorts to attacking my intelligence instead of making a logical, well reasoned post. Just like he was taking Ythan to task for.

I've provided my reasoning in the following post. How about addressing that and/or providing your own.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Claiming mod flavor indicates number of remaining scum is ridiculous. Kill flavor is a GAME MECHANIC, not meaningless flavor. You are reaching.
DERP. Flavor is flavor. Any attempt to champion certain flavor as important but other flavour as meaningless is just plain sad.

To be clear, you are claiming that kill flavor is no different from any other flavor. Please be clear.

@Mod-

Please clarify whether kill flavor is meaningless fluff or whether it actually indicates different game mechanics.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Your claim that "destroyed" is "generic kill flavor" likely betrays inside knowledge on scum kill method. Nothing indicates this anywhere else or in any way. It also goes against your initial claim of abilities being copied on the grapple beam target.
Destroyed is clearly the generic death flavor as shown in the MOD’S PAGE 1 POSTS. Learn to read. I love the unsupportable ‘Black Helicopter’ conspiracy theory you throw in. Lulz he’s Mafiaz becauze he can thinkz for hizself.

Clarify. Nowhere in Page 1 does it say that destroyed is "generic kill flavor". It explicitly states that individuals who are lynched will be "Destroyed" and nothing more than that.

Your reference to conspiracy theories betrays a failure to understand the nature of a mafia game. There *IS* a conspiracy, the mafia are conspiring to kill the town. Any time anyone scumhunts and looks for possible tells, they are looking for evidence of that conspiracy. Your ridiculing is an invalid dismissal or defense.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Your claiming that the grapple beam doesn't actually copy abilities and you were just paraphrasing is an obvious revision after having your botched false claim pointed out.
More unsupported garbage. If you can provide a quote where I say this do so. Otherwise you are just lying continually hoping that if you say it enough it will stick. You know … the Appeal to Repeition fallacy scum love to use.

Spoiler: Done

MoI wrote:Do you believe there was a 4-man original scum team in a no-reveal game? Do you believe there is a Serial Killer?

Kast wrote:I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.

In case your reading comprehension is too poor to understand that, I think there is one remaining scum and MoI is it.

MoI wrote:Please show how your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) on Robo were anything but opportunistic. Because selectively attempting to smear Neto in the manner you are doing while ignoring Furc and Shotty’s reasoning is scumtastic.

Read the post.

MoI wrote:And please explain why a modified Hider mechanic sounds like a scum ability in light of the fact that you butchered the mechanics as shown above.

Be more clear. I pointed out that MoI-scum is probably lying about using Fur's stolen role cop ability on his buddy Neto-scum. MoI's claim about Neto-scum's ability has a huge, objective flaw. The ability itself is likely to be a scum potential protection/potential misinformation ability. Neto likely didn't even use the ability on Day 1, much less use it to target Spyrex. What he probably did is target Spyrex with a "generic" mafia kill.

MoI wrote:1. Why did you incorrectly state that there was not a Death N2 when Ythan died?

To be clear, I did not explicitly state what time period in which there was no deaths. But to be clear, you are correct that there was a death on N2.

MoI wrote:2. Why did you blatantly attempt to make the argument that Neto could have scanned Innocent by using his ability on a Town player?

? Please clarify. I doubt you would invent an ability for your scumbuddy completely out of the blue. You likely based your Grapple Beam claim on an ability that Neto actually had (and *modified* it to account for two investigations).

MoI wrote:
Kast wrote:Looking at the timing of the votes, Millar was obviously waiting for someone to place the (effective) L-1 vote. It is implausible that scum would simply L-1, Hammer, ZR. Regardless of whether the scum team planned the ZR to end the day early or whether Millar was taking action on his own, Millar and Fur's votes were too close and it is implausible that scum would place votes so close and essentially guarantee that they both come under fire and have increased suspicion as a result.
It’s a grade A WIFOM sandwich. Reaper I’m sure appreciates this. LOL, Furc and millar can’t be scum together because no scum would ever do that.

Agreed, there is a WIFOM counter to this point. It's about as strong as stating scum wouldn't unprompted false claim cop on D1 with no ability to back it up. It's an objectively and severely bad thing for scum to do. There is a very rare chance that it might happen, but that is extremely unlikely.

MoI wrote:
Kast wrote:Potential slip. How does MoI know whether a mafia kill is a factional ability or a result of role abilities? This is not something that is always or generally true; particularly not for theme games. This is EVEN LESS likely if he truly believed that mafia have different kill methods with different kill flavors.
LOL. Mafia’s kill ability isn’t Factional because it happened in a few other games. Thus please ignore the sound logic backed by 99% of games.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I wasn't explicitly clear. It should be apparent, but I'd rather get this straightened out prior to wasting time going through games and pulling statistics just to have you dismiss them with semantics arguments. How do you know that the mafia kill will not appear as a player ability if investigated by a role cop? This is the crux of this objection; MoI's claim that a role cop investigation would not reveal kill abilities if targetting a mafia player.

Assuming this is actually your objection, then a couple points:
-Games in which a goon's ability to kill appears in the role PM and would appear to a role-cop investigation are just as common as games where they would not appear.
-In our specific case, one in which MoI believes mafia does have specialized kill flavors (and specifically that at least one mafiate kills with the flavor "Shot"), there are exactly zero instances in the entire Coney Island thread in which scum have kills with a specialized kill flavor that would not appear to a role cop investigation.

Kast · Post Post #1267 (isolation #20) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:50 pm

To clarify, since MoI clearly enjoys taking things out of context:

You aren't addressing any of my content
. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.

The bold section refers specifically to the quoted issue. MoI addresses none of the content of that issue. There are some other issues which he does address and some which he does not.

Kast · Post Post #1269 (isolation #21) » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:24 pm

@Iec-
1. Based on what info we have available to us, the section MoI bolded refers to the immediate limitation of the reveal. The delayed portion very clearly refers to what happened with Kerrigan. We likely will never get the full reveal of actual role abilities until end game, but for all intents and purposes, we are likely to get the delayed reveal of affiliation. The only question there comes what triggers the reveal (e.g. game periods, time, random mechanic, player mechanic,...).

2. MoI has roleblocked two cops. This is undeniable fact.
-The first cop was a role-cop and he claims he used the role cop to investigate Neto in order to confirm a townie. Why attempt to investigate a townie instead of attempt to find scum?
-The second cop was an affiliation-cop; yes the investigation of Muffin would most likely confirm Muffin town (ignoring possibilities of SKs), however he claims to have used the stolen investigation on a lurker instead of using it on either of the two players he claims to suspect as scum. This makes no sense.

3. You did not vote for Robo. BV and Shotty placed early votes. Neto placed a vote that did not make sense given what he was saying, and which was the key vote outside of Millar's hammer.

4. I thought Muffin was scum for the majority of my re-read. I no longer think Muffin is scum. I have continued to point out instances of weak play from Muffin in response to his usage of crap-logic and generally bad play to challenge my earlier statements. Some of this is in defense of myself, and some of it is simply to set the record straight.

The primary argument currently between us (that I see) is that Muffin voted me for what he sees as a discrepancy, and I disagree with his assessment. He explicitly stated the reason as a discrepancy between my opposition to players voting a claimed cop (Muffin), and my support for Shotty's attempted vig kill on the same claimed cop. I maintain that not only is it consistent, but it is also a reflection of best or ideal play for a vig to kill his top suspect, regardless of whether that suspect is a claimed PR. That has devolved into discussion of whether it is appropriate play for a vig to kill a claimed PR; and from there to whether such a thing as ideal play even exists.

None of the current discussion involves characterizing Muffin's play as scum machinations. It does involve characterizing Muffin's play as irrational.

Kast · Post Post #1277 (isolation #22) » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:44 am

@KDub-
-The main point/assumption is not that Neto is scum, it's that MoI's claim about Grapple Beam is incompatible with mod provided information. Neto is probably scum is one of the likely results of my analysis, but it is not a necessary assumption.

Other points include his poorly thought out claimed target choices and reasons (again independent of Neto's affiliation); his (relatively) unbalanced claimed ability (again independent of Neto); and the inconsistency between his stated distrust of

-I don't think Robo is scum; there would be no bussing value for scum to lynch with ZR. I also don't think Muffin can be scum. He could be an insane cop (or some flavor of sanity-challenged). Another possibility is scum could also have messed with the investigation (potentially done by Neto/Samus).

@Fur-
-Muffin's claimed N2 action was investigating MoI, though he says he survived Shotty's kill attempt due to hiding in a bulletproof closet. That does raise a point which seems to have been lost/dropped.

Side note: Hiding in a bulletproof closet could fit but is unnecessary with Shotty's flavor. Shotty was told there was a lump on the bed under the covers, he shot it, but before he could check if Muffin was dead, he heard a noise so left.

@Muffin-
-Someone asked this previously, but do you actually have a passive ability and/or any explanation/idea for how/why you survived the kill attempt?

@Iec-
-If you've already made up your mind then might as well vote. We're probably in an okay position for a few mislynches (hopefully you guys get it right and lynch MoI after you see Neto's flip).

@All-
-Assuming you lynch me, see Neto flip scum, lynch MoI, and the game still doesn't end; look into possible third party roles. Muffin would be a good start; a passive bullet-proof ability would be a likely part of a survivor or other ability; and if MoI-scum actually targeted Muffin, they could be tacitly working together since MoI is likely pretty desperate. This is only a contingency suggestion.

Preview edit: Will read and respond to MoI's post.

Kast · Post Post #1280 (isolation #23) » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:41 am

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kdub wrote:Without quoting the mod's PM directly, can you be as specific as you can about how grapple beam works? Does it explicitly say it copies abilities, or just the effects of abilities? That's an important distinction. Can you ask the mod for clarification if possible?
I’ve previously asked for clarification. To post without directly quoting – any ability that affects the Grapple beam user will also affect the Grapple beam target. I specifically asked whether a Nightkill targeted at Neto would also affect Spyrex. SaintK confirmed it would put made no mention of flavor results.

Ask about it.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Bolded to show your lack of reading ability.
Sigh … your simplistic take on the issue deserves attention. You are claiming that the information provided regarding millar is a MOD mechanic and not a player driven result. That’s fine. Please explain the following then.

Why is millar the only Day / Night 1 flip? I’d really love to see how you justify 1 scum player killed / lynched Day / Night 1 flipping but not another.

I've addressed that the delayed reveal could be due to any of a number of effects. The bottom line is that this game is not JUST a limited reveal game, but ALSO a delayed reveal game. Your attempts to pretend it is only limited reveal are blatant denials of something the mod has proven with evidence.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:You chose to investigate a player because you thought he was pro-town, DESPITE ADAMANTLY REPEATING in game that proving role abilities does not prove affiliation. Please link to a game in which you as town decided to try to investigate and find potential town instead of investigating to find scum.
Proven abilities does not equal proven alignment. I’ve repeatedly said this. That said I’m intelligent enough to make my own judgement’s based on reliable information (ie information my Steal ability shows that is provided by Mod).

You've contradicted yourself by claiming/implying that proven abilities would prove alignment.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:why do you consider Furc’s Ability Cop power to be more an indication of Town status than Muffin’s Alignment Cop power.

I haven't said anything of the sort. Please stop lying.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:-Why wouldn't you stop a kill?
--Why wouldn't you try to confirm suspected vig/scum and if vig control a kill you obviously didn't trust in Shotty's hands?
--Why wouldn't you use the investigation on suspected vig/scum to guarantee lynch (instead of targetting a lurker who wouldn't be in the running for a mislynch anyway)?
Lol read what I wrote. The explanation is right there.

Don't avoid the questions. Explain how it is better to confirm someone you suspect is a townie than to stop your suspected mafia kill while confirming that player as scum.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:But your last statement is interesting. Smart Alignment Cop play isn't to scan a suspect you find already suspicious. Smart Alignment cop play is to scan a player who is difficult to read. So attempting to paint my decision to scan bv310 as not wise is again scumtastic.

If that is honestly how you feel, then we have a serious disagreement in basic theory. I strongly disagree with your assertion that a cop should ignore his top two suspects in favor of checking/clearing a lurker. If you are just pretending to believe that, then I really dislike your scum tactics; attempting to lowering the quality of game play in order to benefit your team is just lame.

Smart alignment cop play is to catch scum

. Cops should investigate who they think is most likely to be scum.

As a caveat, if the cop is absolutely convinced that the player is:
1) scum
2) going to be lynched anyway

Then it would make sense to investigate the next most likely scum. This is NOT what you did; you investigated someone you did not suspect and ignored both of your top two reads.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:You aren't addressing any of my content. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.
I’ve clearly addressed the issue but you keep blantatly pretending I haven’t because your arguments don’t hold water. Neto’s play was much more Pro-Town than Furc’s. End of story. Throw around accusastions that Neto’s wasn’t being logical all you want. Everyone else can judge for themselves.

You have

asserted

that you are correct, but never once attempted to explain or address my explanation.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:I again laugh at your attempt to discredit using Wikitells. Funny. Pointing out the pure scum motivation in attacking a dead player shows why you are scum.

Please point out what you dislike about my argument and what you are attempting to dismiss as Wikitells. Also, you are smart enough to realise that showing a possible scum motivation for something is not proof that the player is scum.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:To be clear, you are claiming that kill flavor is no different from any other flavor. Please be clear.
@Mod- Please clarify whether kill flavor is meaningless fluff or whether it actually indicates different game mechanics.
Incorrect. You are the one arguing that kill flavor is a game mechanic while other flavour is meaningless.

Are you paying any attention? Agreed, I am the one arguing that kill flavor is a game mechanic. You are the one claiming that kill flavor is meaningless.

At the same time, you are claiming that lynch scene flavor is actually indicative of the number of remaining scum. This is a ridiculous and unfounded claim.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:If that’s the case why did you bother to post all the flavor you received from RC regarding hearing noises?

It's called full claiming. I'm not blind; I can see most players are either decided or leaning in favor of lynching me regardless of how scummy you are. Shotty's lurking was very unfortunate. Neto did a good job provoking Robo and getting town to sympathize with him. You've played a fairly solid game until your botched claims. I also don't think it's necessary to humor Muffin's ego.

I'll give town all the info I have; in case it helps convince them to avoid mislynching; in case it helps after I've been mislynched.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Clarify. Nowhere in Page 1 does it say that destroyed is "generic kill flavor". It explicitly states that individuals who are lynched will be "Destroyed" and nothing more than that.
If you can’t understand the eminently logical leap that Destroyed is generic flavour I can’t help you. Your inability to not understand that 1+1=2 doesn’t make it wrong.

In other words, you reread the post and realized that "oh shit, it doesn't say all deaths are generically 'destroyed'". The lynch is "destroyed", but a generic mafia kill flavor is known only to mafia.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:In case your reading comprehension is too poor to understand that, I think there is one remaining scum and MoI is it.
My reading comprehension is fine. I just wanted to to clearly commit that you think there is 1 scum of any flavor left.

You are letting your pride get in the way of playing the game properly. You did not read carefully and did not see that I already addressed your point. I'm sure you are upset (regardless of alignment) when I repeatedly ask you to answer a difficult question. It's understandable that you want to respond in kind. However, that's no excuse to start lying and making things up. If you're wrong about something admit it. Making mistakes is not inherently scummy. And besides, we've already caught you for your objectively scummy botched claim.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Read the post.
I did. Your argument that Neto’s vote, based on his back and forth with Robo, is more opportunistic than Shotty / your vote “cause innocents have nothing to fear” and Furc’s “Robo annoys me” is just ludicrous and scummy.

To be clear then, you admit I did already answer the question. You disagree with my answer.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:Be more clear. I pointed out that MoI-scum is probably lying about using Fur's stolen role cop ability on his buddy Neto-scum. MoI's claim about Neto-scum's ability has a huge, objective flaw. The ability itself is likely to be a scum potential protection/potential misinformation ability. Neto likely didn't even use the ability on Day 1, much less use it to target Spyrex.
What he probably did is target Spyrex with a "generic" mafia kill.
Bolded for emphasis. Look closely what is being said. Kast is claiming a generic mafia kill flavor that is the same as the lynch flavor. But earlier he’s argued that each Mafian should have their own kill flavor. He also argued that the flavor written by the Mod is rich and that Mod would not make the mistake of duplicating flavor. Selective arguing of the facts? Scumtastic.

Reading comprehension failure. The mod never stated that "Destroyed" is generic kill flavor. The mod stated that it is the lynch flavor. MoI stated that "destroyed" is generic kill flavor. I pointed this out as a possible slip that MoI has private information that "destroyed" is actually the "generic kill flavor" for this game. The only reason MoI would know this is if MoI is scum who knows the generic scum kill flavor.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:How do you know that the mafia kill will not appear as a player ability if investigated by a role cop? This is the crux of this objection; MoI's claim that a role cop investigation would not reveal kill abilities if targetting a mafia player.
It’s clear logical reference. I have two different abilities. My ability to steal and my secondary ability that BV310 has vouched for. Furc has claimed the ability to hide in addition to his Observe ability. Yet when I stole from him I didn’t get both. I only got the ability to Observe. Likewise I only saw one ability from both Neto and Spyrex (not that we have any confirmation that they had mutiple abilities). Do you think if I had stolen from a Mafia Roleblocker (which we almost certainly have) that I would get both abilities?

I don't know what you would get because I don't know what abilities the mafia have. I do know that Fur claimed to be a full role cop, and that you confirmed he is a full role cop. Since the point under discussion is how mafia investigate under a full role-cop, then your limitation isn't even relevant. Nice try to straw man this discussion.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:And to correct you Furc isn’t a ROLE COP. He’s an ability cop. Huge difference there Tex, but one I see you seem to be ignoring in your desperate attempt to make me look like scum.

Semantics. Role cop = ability cop. It's a cop which learns the game mechanic abilities of his target (but generally not the affiliation/name/title/etc). If you misunderstood what I was referring to or objected to use of that term, then do so from the beginning please; arguing a technicality after demonstrating you clearly understood what I was talking about is an invalid dismissal. If you feel better, pretend I stated ability cop every instance you see role cop.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Kast wrote:2. MoI has roleblocked two cops. This is undeniable fact.
-The first cop was a role-cop and he claims he used the role cop to investigate Neto in order to confirm a townie. Why attempt to investigate a townie instead of attempt to find scum?
-The second cop was an affiliation-cop; yes the investigation of Muffin would most likely confirm Muffin town (ignoring possibilities of SKs), however he claims to have used the stolen investigation on a lurker instead of using it on either of the two players he claims to suspect as scum. This makes no sense.
You keep saying that I’m role-blocking someone. That’s an outright lie. A role-blocker prevents an ability from being used. I didn’t prevent their use. I simply allowed myself to use the ability in place of them. So repeating over and over that I role-blocked someone is incorrect. Role-blocking is what you partner who seduces players does.

You block their role. You do prevent them from using their abilities. More arguing semantics to avoid the point.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:If you are objecting to my scanning of bv310 you don’t know how to play Cop then. You scan hard to read lurkers and lynch scum. Only bad players scan people they find scummy.

Again, strongly disagree. I find it incomprehensible that you claim cops should not investigate people they find scummy.

Kast · Post Post #1281 (isolation #24) » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:45 am

@Iec-
Thank you. Very good point.
-Is that sufficient to sway your vote?

@BV/KDub-
-In light of Muffin's confirmation that someone shot at him, does that change your opinion of Shotty as scum? (which I'm sure MoI will whine that it isn't confirmed that Shotty was the one who tried killing Muffin; if anyone else shares his view please say so).

Kast · Post Post #1282 (isolation #25) » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:47 am

@Fur-
Please provide the flavor information surrounding your getting role blocked on N1.

Kast · Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:32 am

@Fur-
-That's the mechanics of what happened. Could you paraphrase the flavor? In particular, could you include any hints or anything else that might have been included?

For example, Muffin's flavor told him he couldn't act because he was walking around looking for the stolen IDD.

-To be clear, when you say you "hid" it's similar to a standard commuter ability. MoI's post seems to assume you used a redirection ability (ie. reverse bodyguard).

Kast · Post Post #1298 (isolation #27) » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:07 pm

@Iec-

Iec wrote:Why on earth are you doing that given that Ythan died the same night someone shot you?

You're missing the part where I told him he was wrong and hurt his ego. Pride is often a greater master than reason.

Kast · Post Post #1301 (isolation #28) » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:22 pm

@Muffin-

Iec wrote:a) Shotty claimed he ran out of kills. You think the SK is going to sit on his hands until endgame? (The point is to remind you of this detail.)

You didn't actually address this point. The implication of claiming my player slot is an SK is that you are claiming an SK would plausibly claim to never kill again. If there was ever a night with multiple kills, or if a tracker or watcher saw the suspected SK taking a night action, then the SK is obviously hosed.

@Iec-
I know Shotty targeted Neto on N1. If MoI was telling the truth about Grapple Beam, then Spyrex would have died by shot. Also, given the amount of unnecessary flavor that RC gave for a N2 failed kill, I don't think it is at all plausible that he wouldn't have given even a small hint that the N1 kill was copied/transferred/etc. MoI has also been very careful with his wording of abilities, so I don't buy for one second that he messed up paraphrasing the Grapple Beam.

MoI also is essentially confirming Muffin as an affiliation cop.

Spoiler: That leaves a few possibilities

It does not leave the possibility of Muffin as mafia and MoI as non-mafia.

Kast · Post Post #1318 (isolation #29) » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:25 am

Really long post...much longer than I realized. Oh well.

@MoI-

MoI wrote:Your attempts to twist this argument into my saying that millar wasn’t revealed as scum are ludicrous. I’ve never said he wasn’t.

Either you are doing a terrible job of reading, I am doing a terrible job of presenting, some combination of the two, or one of us is intentionally doing a poor job. I'm not interested in pointless back-and-forth; let's clarify the issue.

Spoiler: Summary from as neutral a PoV as I can present it. If you think it's incorrect, then point out where I'm missing your point.

-I think your attempt to lynch me now is to force through a mislynch before I get confirmed as town. You claim your attempt is simply to lynch suspected scum. We disagree on this.
-You claim that my expectation for Neto to have a delayed flip betrays a failure to read the rules (and potentially an attempt to trick others) is invalid. The rules and mod evidence actually support my expectation.

MoI wrote:1. You assertion that my targets are poorly thought out is simply your opinion. Your ‘choices’ of supposed Vig targets are poorly thought out. So you must be scum. See how that works.
2. My claim isn’t unbalanced at all. I’m a two shot Ability Borrower / User. All the ‘rest’ of your evidence of unbalance rests on you throwing other abilities into the fray. Suddenly I'm a Jailkeeper - Roleblocker - Thief all in one.
3. Not sure what the inconsitency is when you don’t even discuss who my distrust is of.

Two thoughts to keep in mind:
-These are a summary of my previous statements. If you did not understand any of them, there is plenty of reasoning, explanation, and clarification behind them that you can go back to read.
-I don't always proof-read, so it is possible I did not express myself as clearly as I should have. I will attempt to clarify anything that was unclear. I will try to keep the clarification brief.
1. Your targets

combined with

your reasons for those targets are inconsistent with your other stated beliefs. Inconsistencies between claimed night choices and in-thread beliefs are a fairly reliable scum-tell indicating a botched false claim. Example: You propose that Fur investigate Shotty to catch a probable liar. However, you yourself do not investigate your suspect Shotty, and instead investigate a player you are not suspicious of.
2.

Spoiler: Your claimed ability has 3 parts:

3. I'm not sure what I was referring to there.

Kast wrote:Ask about it

I probably was not specific enough.

MoI wrote:SaintK confirmed it would put made no mention of flavor results.

Please ask SaintK or RC about the flavor results.

I’ve bolded the LIKELY for you. So please STOP LYING about what I am saying. I’ve NEVER said Neto’s power would prove he was town.

You are arguing technicalities that are irrelevant to the base point. If you want to blame me for not being specific enough, then ok, I'll admit I could have been a lot more specific with my language. Base point is this:
-It is contradictory to claim that proven abilities has absolutely no bearing on determining a player's alignment (your claim wrt Fur), but to also claim that proven abilities can have a bearing on determining a player's alignment (your claim wrt Neto).

MoI wrote:
Kast wrote:Don't avoid the questions. Explain how it is better to confirm someone you suspect is a townie than to stop your suspected mafia kill while confirming that player as scum.
Don’t you read? I’ve stated I believe the generic Mafia kill is Factional and would not be stolen by my ability. You can argue MOD mechanics all you want but you CAN’T know whether I’m correct or not. Like so many of your other arguments it’s pure supposition on your part.

My questions take your PoV into account. Short version, from your PoV, using your ability on Shotty would have confirmed your suspected scum & potentially stolen the mafia kill

(which you could then use to kill Shotty)

OR prove your top suspect was town and save you from pushing a mislynch.

Spoiler: Long Version

MoI wrote:Here’s a hint – your opinion is no more valid than anyone else’s.

This is a false statement. Just because people have different opinions about something, does not mean they are all equally valid, nor does it mean that relative valences are indeterminate. I see any indication that you are willing to openly discuss validity of our opinions (at least not until post-game), so we can save that discussion for then.

Spoiler: Some Hypotheticals:

MoI wrote:Prove I ignored my top reads.

-You ignored Shotty (your top scum read) and Fur (your second scum read). Instead you investigated players you expressed no suspicion of {Muffin, Neto, BV}.
--Are you disputing that Shotty and Fur were your top two scum reads?
--Are you claiming that any of {Muffin, Neto, BV} were part of your top suspects?

You’ve only asseted that you are correct. Your point with this?

I have explained and provided evidence for my assertions. You have not done the same with yours. You have avoided discussion of my explanations.

MoI wrote:I’ve never said kill flavour is meaningless.

You are correct that you never explicitly used those words to state that message. However, arguing a technicality like that is an invalid defense. You have repeatedly tried to claim that kill flavor is not actually a game mechanic tied with the actual kill. You have inconsistently, been forced to admit that kill flavor is tied to the source of the kill.

My night ability lets me target a player with the effect that the player is killed by being shot. Your botched claim about Grapple Beam inherently dismisses the kill flavor as not being a game relevant mechanic, specifically an effect of my ability. Your claim about Grapple Beam is equally invalid as if you claimed that a Name Investigation targeting Neto could copy the Investigation effect but switch the investigation to a generic Affiliation Investigation.

You are arguing that flavor text only viewable by you in a PM is meaningful to the Night’s events while flavor text posted in thread by the Mod is meaningless. Also note that it wasn’t lynch scene flavor but flavor during millar’s scum reveal. Yet another inaccuracy on your part.

You are correct that it was not a lynch scene. Please explain how that is relevant.

(A) The mod tells a player that someone was outside their door in the night.
(B) The mod tells a player that someone tried to kill them in the night.
(C) The mod publicly uses third person plural when referring to the mafia.
To be clear, you do not understand why a player would believe that (A) and (B) are game relevant information but (C) is meaningless flavor. For me, it is so intuitively obvious that I do not believe I have the capability to explain this distinction to you. It is hard for me to believe that you cannot understand this difference, to the point where I doubt you are being honest. @BV/KDub/Iec/Muffin/Fur- do any of you have trouble understanding this difference? If I am alone or in a minority here, I can make an attempt.

MoI wrote:I’ve never said ‘Destroyed’ is a generic scum flavor.

And I didn't say you said that. I quoted and linked to where you said "Destroyed" is the generic kill flavor for the game. I did say you probably slipped knowledge that "Destroyed" is the generic scum kill flavor.

MoI wrote:I’ve said REPEATEDLY that Destroyed is the generic death flavor
that comes when someone dies when not directly targeted by a kill.

False.

Spoiler: You have repeatedly stated that 'Destroyed' is the generic kill flavor.

MoI wrote:You are assuming there is generic kill flavour for the Mafia. Please indicate how this makes any logic sense in that we have kills flavors of Shot (Neto) and Scratched and Torn (Ythan).

Neto was not killed by mafia. Neto was killed by town Vig. Spyrex was the obvious mafia kill and

did

die by the presumed generic kill flavor. Ythan was obviously not killed by the generic mafia kill, but rather a specialized mafia kill (offhand, I'd guess scratched and torn to pieces reflects a specialized janitor ability). With the exception of my janitor speculation, all of this has already been stated.

No my post clearly assumes his second ability is a Hider. I know you must be aware of that role.

Actually, I've never played with or encountered a Hider role before. Thank you for expanding my repertoire.

@MoI, post 1305-
1.1. I have outstanding questions to BV regarding his assessment of you as Rikku. I'm sorry if you don't think that is addressing this point; I can't do much more. I also believe that RC is entirely capable of crafting a mafia role out of a standard protagonist OR providing a safe claim that makes sense and is compatible with the actual scum role (you can replace role with abilities).
1.2. My assertion regarding your claimed Grapple Beam and the mod provided Kill Flavor of Spyrex death has nothing to do with outguessing the mod. If you claimed Grapple Beam changes a targets name to "AppleBee" but claimed target's name did not change to "AppleBee", then it is not outguessing the mod to assume the mod's failure to conform to the claimed ability is indication that the person claiming the ability is a liar.
1.3. Mislynching the inactive town vigilante before he can be confirmed is one reason for you to come forth, especially if you have no idea who he will target (and did not know he was out of kills) and he already killed your buddy who nobody else suspected. Getting momentum against the rolecop who is publicly suspicious of you is another good reason for your gambit. The simple fact that the majority of town already blindly trusts you so you can already get away with almost anything is another possible motivation.

I don't know why you ask for these since I'm sure you will simply dismiss them as "suppositions". Guessing the motivation of scum is always, inherently *GUESSING*.

2. and 3. are not damning in and of themselves. What you addressed is also only half of each issue. The inconsistency between the reasons for those targets and your in-thread beliefs makes all of the targeting more suspicious.

MoI wrote:Furthermore let’s quickly glance at what he isn’t addressing –

Voting records. Not a single mention is made of my vote for millar made early in Day 1 that I kept on him the entire day.

-Did you mean to include more? Sounds possible, but ambiguous. Please add the other things I'm not addressing if you had others in mind.
-Your vote for millar is probably a bus. Millar is a weak player, he's perfect as a sacrificial mafian.

@MoI's attacks on Shotty-
Are you expecting me to defend Shotty's play and/or comment on your thoughts? For now I'm ignoring that section and assuming it's simply meant to convince others and attack me for things I can't defend. (Is it scumtastic when MoI attacks someone who is not here, or does that only apply when Kast does it?)

@KDub/Iec-
-I've claimed all the information (including flavor) that I've received.

@Fur-
MoI is clearly stating that when he gets lynched, town will not see anything other than a name. We would not have immediate information from his flip with which to gauge Muffin's affiliation.

@MoI-

MoI wrote:I also have some idea why someone was sleeping in Shotty’s doorway Night 2.

Please explain this.

Kast · Post Post #1319 (isolation #30) » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:27 am

@MoI/Muffin-
-What do you think about Shotty-SK claiming that he has no more kills?

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:56 am

@Iec-
If MoI is telling the truth about Grapple Beam, then Neto pretty much cannot be scum.

I don't think MoI is telling the truth about Grapple Beam; it would mean he was both careless and taking extreme liberties with his description. Neither of those fit the rest of his playstyle.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:10 am

If MoI is telling the truth, then this is a careless paraphrase:

Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target.

His current claim is essentially:

Any non-kill abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target. If Neto dies, the target will also die with "destroyed" as the death flavor.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:37 am

I've asked RC a few times now to try and figure out if there is any possible way my kills could result in someone dying with the flavor "destroyed". He won't answer any questions that could potentially confirm or deny hypothetical roles, but he has make it clear that anyone who dies from a bullet would have the death flavor "Shot".

From a flavor standpoint, the Grapple Beam in Metroid games doesn't really have a similar effect to what MoI is claiming. The closest thing would be the SSB Grapple Beam used as a grab. And while players can die while grabbed, but that's only a result of being hit by an attack or item, not from some inherent tie with Samus.

I can understand reluctance to lynch MoI given flavor info that implies a successful protection; but I don't see any way plausible way that MoI's claim about Neto can be true.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:12 pm

Muffin wrote:I recognize that the "shot" death flavor would be revealing if it appeared later, after shotty had claimed he was out of kills.

Do you think an SK would claim this unprompted?
@Iec-
Shotty did not receive any such flavor for N3. I'll ask RC if he forgot to send any PMs though.

Muffin wrote:The simple fact is that you don't KNOW that the "shot" flavour would carry over to the grapple target. You're just assuming.

That is a misleading statement. A simple fact is that I don't KNOW how my kill would carry over to any of an infinite number of potential hypothetical roles.

I KNOW that my kill flavor would carry over to any flat-out redirection abilities. I also KNOW it would carry over to any flat-out copying abilities. I KNOW that it would carry over to the Grapple Beam IF the Grapple Beam ability works the way MoI initially described it. Obviously he can later claim he messed up his paraphrase, but it loses major credibility at that point.

@Muffin-
I have no idea why Shotty was informed of the Smell of Evil in Robo's room. There is nothing in the role PM that even remotely refers to any such ability or provides any reason for it.

Speculation: It is possible RC just got carried away in writing PM flavor and/or thought it could tie well with Shotty telling RC that he suspected Muffin was lying scum.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:13 pm

@RC-
I did not get that D4 started PM. That is what I was referring to when asking if you missed sending me any N3 PMs.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:13 pm

EBWOP:

@Mod-

I did not get that D4 started PM. That is what I was referring to when asking if you missed sending me any N3 PMs.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:32 pm

@Iec-
-It was included at the beginning of another PM as a flashback memory of Chun Li's room.

-I don't know what game relevance (if any) it has. The flavor emphasizes several times that Chun Li herself did not appear to be evil and nothing in Chun Li's room appeared Evil either. There was just an evil smell.

If I had to guess between Chun Li being a Miller or Chun Li being framed, I'd say the flavor sounds more like Chun Li was framed.

HOWEVER, a framer role so unlikely to ever go off that it's negligible. It also just doesn't seem balanced to have limited reveals & scum misinformation roles.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:34 pm

f I had to guess between Chun Li being a Miller or Chun Li being framed, I'd say the flavor sounds more like Chun Li was framed.

Btw, THIS guess is pure speculation that I do not yet see a reasonable explanation for.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:44 pm

Flashback to the lynch scene. It actually says that EVERYONE went to Chun Li's room after the lynch to see if we could see why Muffin thought Chun Li was Evil. I'm assuming the whole thing visit is flavor (and not a result of any player abilities), however, it raises a possible experiment to try. Everyone should mention trusting or not trusting Muffin's investigation regarding Robo in their PMs tonight.

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:45 pm

@Muffin-
Blame the mod =P

Kast · Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:47 pm

@BV-
Please chime in and share some thoughts. A lot has been shared since your last post.

Kast · Post Post #1359 (isolation #42) » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:06 pm

@BV-

Spoiler: Shotty/Kast is not mafia

Spoiler: MoI may be lying about Grapple Beam

Spoiler: Robo/Chun Li had an Evil Smell from her room

Spoiler: I would like you to answer these questions:

@Muffin-
Iec is correct; those quotes both refer to the same PM.

@MoI-
I realize you haven't checked in since I asked, but just to keep it current:
-Please explain what you meant by this:

MoI wrote:I also have some idea why someone was sleeping in Shotty’s doorway Night 2.

Kast · Post Post #1367 (isolation #43) » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:10 pm

@BV-
-If you're soft claiming private communication with MoI, please don't soft claim and be direct. There's absolutely no need to keep that claim secret.
-If you're soft claiming a masonizer ability, also please be direct.

3 of the 4 players you named have claimed fairly extensively.
Fur- Tanya Adams - 2 Shot Role-Cop + Commuter (+ possibly more...) - N1 RBed by MoI; N2 RBed by Sexy Teen Wet Dream; N3 Commuted
Muffin- Lara Croft - Affiliation Cop (+ possibly more...) - N1 Guilty on Robo; N2 RBed by MoI; N3 RBed by Sexy Teen Wet Dream
Iec- ??? - JoAT (Watcher/Tracker/Doc/...) - N1 Tracked Ythan; N2 Watched MoI; N3 Doctored MoI

Speculation: The "Sexy Teen Wet Dream"-RBer does suggest a second scum, though it could also possibly be a townie with really bad night choices. There are some immediate video game babes who fit the bill that come to mind.

Preview Edit: I need to be faster...

Kast · Post Post #1369 (isolation #44) » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:33 pm

@BV-
Please be clear and check with the mod if you haven't done so yet.
-Is MoI's name confirmed to be Rikku?
-Did MoI's ability give you any confirmed information?

Kast · Post Post #1384 (isolation #45) » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:38 am

@BV-
-According to MoI's claims, no your role is not confirmed to him. He only investigated your Affiliation as Good.

@MoI-
-Assuming your "second" ability is neighborizing, why neighborize with an unknown town lurker (BV) instead of neighborizing with a confirmed cop (Muffin)?

Kast · Post Post #1391 (isolation #46) » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:37 am

@Iec-
Given a choice between neighborizing a Confirmed-Good with unknown abilities or a Confirmed-Cop, the former doesn't make much sense. It's fairly standard to neighborize investigative roles whenever there is a claimed/confirmed one present. Redundancy in learning investigation results is huge.

@Fur/Muffin-
Credit for millar's lynch would go first to Robo's increased lynch threshold power.

Kast · Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:39 am

If you are using the Neighborize as a means to pass along information to a player likely to survive the Night you choose player 2.

Unless you expect two coordinated night kills, then targeting either player will achieve that objective.

If you care about passing along an outed & confirmed cop's investigation results to the town, then you choose player 1.

If you care about coordinating investigation results so the cop you roleblocked doesn't waste his investigation on someone who was already investigated and/or you can help him choose a good target, you also choose player 1.

Kast · Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:52 am

@Kdub-
It sounds like he's still referring to the stolen affiliation investigation as confirming his affiliation; it does not sound like BV is referring to MoI's neighborizer power as confirming affiliation.

Kast · Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:55 am

@BV-

We disagreed on whether Muffin was lying about his role.

Please clarify this.
-You think Muffin was lying?
--If so, why do you think that?
--If not, why did MoI think Muffin was lying, despite confirming the ability himself and trusting the results of the ability?

Kast · Post Post #1403 (isolation #50) » Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:27 am

@MoI-
tl;dr

I started, but after the first line shows you have zero intention of discussing and only intend to repeat yourself, it's not worth my time. Enjoy your vacation. If you have anything new that needs a response, please post it in a legible form.

Kast · Post Post #1408 (isolation #51) » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:08 am

@Iec-
-Regarding your disbelief of Neto as scum; that is not required for MoI to be scum. MoI-scum could have completely invented the whole Grapple Beam ability (it's hardly what Samus is known for; certainly less than her standard Power Beam or her Bombs).

-My best guess about Muffin surviving N2 is that MoI is lying about his ability and that the role-block/power stealing is also a jailkeeper effect. Some evidence to support this theory is BV's attempt to target Fur getting blocked/nulled/whatever as a result of MoI's action.

Interestingly enough, BV admits it is a result of MoI's interference. I'm not sold yet on BV/MoI scum team; I think it's quite likely that BV has never before had the misfortune of a scum neighborizer picking him as a conversation buddy.

@MoI-
It does look like we are at an impasse; has looked like that for some time now.

Lynch MoI:
Kast: Strongly believes you are scum.
Fur: Strongly believes you are scum.
Iec: Weighed the evidence, eventually concluded you are prolly scum.

Do Not Lynch MoI:
MoI: Obviously opposed.
BV: Thinks MoI is confirmed town.
Muffin: ...believes BV?...dunno why he's opposed actually; I think Muffin just really wanted to lynch me and tunneled, but the evidence forced him to admit to himself that I'm prob-town.

Undecided:
Kdub- Indecisive. Please make a choice, there's lots of info available already. Your questions to BV have already been answered.

Kast · Post Post #1412 (isolation #52) » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:27 am

@MoI-
I doubt you'll be lynched over the weekend. I'm certainly not advocating that Kdub vote/hammer you without giving you a last chance to claim anything you left out.

@Iec-
Agree that what was claimed sounds based off the SSB version of Samus. My personal thoughts are that the Grapple Beam MoI claimed is a modified version of an actual ability his scum-buddy has. He quite possibly had a second (or even third) ability beyond that.

Kast · Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:20 am

@Whatif...Neto was town?-
I have given thought to this, though don't think I've shared most of these thoughts:
-It would mean MoI still has a buddy (probably the other guy doing the role blocking).
--Counter point is that it is unlikely for mafia to have two RBs.
--Slightly mitigated if this game is no-VT
-Most likely buddies would be Kdub or BV.
--Kdub is doing his lurking/indecisive thing which could mean he's busy or could mean he's scum. Intentional lurking is a tool he uses as scum (that he would not use as town). It's hard to say whether he is doing it intentionally or not. He's also the most likely person behind the unclaimed RBs (everyone else has claimed not being the RBer), though if he claims he did not do them, then we know they are scum controlled (or really bad town).
--BV is going really far to defend MoI on very little evidence. QT titled with a character name is not automatically confirmation that the player inside is the named character (a scum neighborizer whose neighbor QT title revealed that he was Evil would be a pretty pointless power). We also do not know whether all scum have antagonist (Evil) characters; it is possible Rikku could be scum.

Kast · Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:37 am

@Fur-
Kdub's just being complete in his thoughts. If you play with him a few games, you'll see he sometimes needs to be called out in order to take a stand. It's a null-tell.
-Point is he supports lynching MoI if there is support, and there clearly is (you, me, Iec, Kdub).

@Kdub/Iec-
As posted before, MoI should be given a chance to post any final thought and/or full claim anything he has left out. Please no hammer until he gets back.

Kast · Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:44 am

@Fur-
Probably, but it doesn't hurt to let him say something; and he might slip info that helps determine his scumbuddy (if he has one).

Actually, Kdub's denial of being the RBer makes it clear that whoever is RBing people with the wet dream thing is scum. This supports the argument that MoI is not the last remaining scum.

Kast · Post Post #1440 (isolation #56) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:03 am

@SSBF-
Welcome. Thanks for catching up, and replacing in.
-You haven't addressed any of the many concrete claims that have been made or analysis of those claims (most of them made and/or discussed heavily on D4).
--Summary of them can be found here.
--You have sort of addressed that MoI claims to have found BV innocent. You incomprehensibly claim this is proof that BV and MoI cannot be scum together. Please explain. It is neither impossible nor unheard of for scum to false claim an innocent result on a buddy.
-You point out a lot of reasons that you think Fur is a bad player, but it's fallacious to associate a bad player with being scum. Ability does not indicate affiliation.

@MoI/BV-
I don't think either of you addressed BV's admission that MoI was responsible for stopping him from targeting Fur on N1. That's pretty much a clincher that MoI has been lying about his ability. It doesn't look like he's interested in doing that.

Kast · Post Post #1441 (isolation #57) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:03 am

Left out a line:

MoI was given time to make any final claims and/or explanations.

It doesn't look like he's interested in doing that.

Kast · Post Post #1443 (isolation #58) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:30 am

@MoI-

Kast has once again failed to answer the point I made – that every one of his theories mystically must indicate I am scum.

Indicate where you made this "point" and wanted any kind of response. Blowing hot air because you avoided answering a simple and direct point does not mitigate your evasion. Attempting to misrepresent me as tunneling on you to the exclusion of other players and points is ridiculous and blatantly untrue.

-I have pointed out several "theories", some of which indicate MoI as scum, some which don't. I've considered them all and the things that make the most sense are:
--MoI's claim about Grapple Beam is inconsistent and does not match with mod provided information about Spyrex's death. This indicates MoI is lying.
--MoI has a jailkeeper role that lets him use an ability of the player he jails. It's a pretty simple theory that I proposed from the beginning; it is the ONLY theory that anyone has proposed that fits with all available information. His claim that there is some "continuing spiral" is a blatant lie attempting to distort the actual post record.

Both of those theories implicate you as lying scum and are the best explanations for all information available. If there are other "theories" which mystically indicate you are scum, please clarify so I can walk you through them and they aren't so "mystical" to you. I doubt you actually need that assistance though.

Kast · Post Post #1445 (isolation #59) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:09 am

@MoI-

But the GAPING hole to this statement is this - I publicly posted the direct name of Furc’s ability before he did. A Jailkeeper would not know the name that Furc’s ability, but a Thief would.

A jailkeeper would not be able to use someone else's ability. I never theorized you were

JUST

a jailkeeper or that you were a

jailkeeper who steals an ability but doesn't know what the stolen ability is

. Obviously if you add a pointless and completely nonsensical addition to what I theorized, you can easily make

your

misrepresentation have a hole.

Also, how do you explain Muffin’s flavor that he was up looking for the item I stole from him N2 when you tried to ‘kill’ him. That flavor clearly supports my already stated ability to take an item from a player.

I'm sure you realize the term jailkeeper does not mean the flavor is INHERENTLY putting someone in a cell and preventing them from going out. Both of your targets have supporting flavor claims that, despite your roleblocking, they were out of their rooms. The immediate potential flavor explanation is that your ability "protects" the target by getting them to move around "looking" for their stolen item instead of being in their room at night to get targeted.

Kast · Post Post #1448 (isolation #60) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:59 am

@MoI-
-Reading comprehension fail on your part. Let's go back to the first time I raised the theory. Oh wait, that's my second actual post in the game. The situation is really simple; Kast read the game and speculated on a possible role:
--MoI is a jailkeeper who can steal powers.
--MoI tries to argue technicalities and sow confusion about his role, but Kast cuts away MoI's BS and forces him to stop being ambiguous but instead clarify and confirm. MoI's claimed "stealing" ability is actually a 3-part ability which investigates the target, grants MoI an ability, and role-blocks the target.

@Iec-
As far as I can tell, Fur has not claimed the flavor of his N1 roleblock. I tried asking him before, and I don't think he understood the question then it got lost.

@Fur-
Please clarify the flavor of your N1 roleblock.

Kast · Post Post #1449 (isolation #61) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:12 am

Kast in the post MoI quoted but didn't actually read wrote:
MoI wrote:2. My claim isn’t unbalanced at all. I’m a two shot Ability Borrower / User. All the ‘rest’ of your evidence of unbalance rests on you throwing other abilities into the fray. Suddenly
I'm a Jailkeeper - Roleblocker - Thief all in one.

Btw, the post you reference actually includes a quote of you admitting that I already posted the "Jailkeeper - Roleblocker - Thief" speculation prior to the alleged change. Note that when I'm discussing what you are actually claiming, that does not mean I believe your claim is true or stop believing what I had previously stated I believe. Your assertion to the contrary (that discussing your claim is equivalent to believing it) is the reading comprehension failure that I was referring to (though there are probably others).

Kast · Post Post #1457 (isolation #62) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:19 pm

@SSBF-
Hold up, you said that SaintKerrigan confirmed that Spyrex died due to Netopalis.

Where & when did SaintKerrigan confirm that?

-Spyrex death flavor currently goes AGAINST MoI's claim. MoI claimed that the ability is copied to the target. My kill ability uses

bullets

to kill the target with kill flavor of

Shot

. If the ability was copied, then Spyrex should have died by

Shot

instead of

destroyed

.

Muffin confirmed that there was a kill attempt on him. Read your PMs and check if there was information about a kill attempt.
-If your mod PM confirms that a (failed) kill was made on you, do you agree that is proof that Shotty/Kast was not lying?

Kast · Post Post #1462 (isolation #63) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:40 pm

@Mod (RC)-

My question was not to you, my question was to SSBF who claimed in thread that SaintKerrigan confirmed that information. However, if you are willing to confirm in thread that SSBF is mistaken, I'm not opposed to that.

SSBF wrote:Since SaintKerrigan confirmed that SpyreX died due to Netopalis's death and that nothing has confirmed otherwise, there are no evidence that I saw that indicated a second kill.

@SSBF-
Thought exercise:
-Player A & Player B die N1.
-Player C claims that he KNOWS Player B was the mafia kill.
-Player D claims the Player A kill.

-Player E dies N2.
-Mod tells Player F that a kill attempt on him failed in N2.
-Player D claims an attempted kill on Player F (without Player F saying anything).
-Player F claims that the kill attempt as described by Player D happened but failed.

Would you believe Player D?

Exercise 2:
-Player A claims a role cop investigation result on Player B (who is dead).
-Player A claims that Player B has an ability that does X1.
-Player A claims that X1 means Player C is mafia.
-Mod reveals that X2 happened (where X2 is not X1).
-Player C calls out Player A for the discrepancy.
-Player A claims that he was paraphrasing and X1 is actually X1 most of the time but can also be X2 sometimes.

Is it possible that Player A is lying?

Kast · Post Post #1464 (isolation #64) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:44 pm

Btw- Given how hard it is to get a straight answer out of RC even over PMs when the question is about my own role interacting with hypothetical standard roles, I seriously doubt that RC (or SaintKerrigan) would answer a question about how a

hypothetical vig

would interact with

someone else's role

. If either mod is willing and able to answer such questions in private, then it should be okay to answer them in-thread as well.

Kast · Post Post #1465 (isolation #65) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:47 pm

@MoI-
Resorting to name-calling as a means of dismissing actual points without addressing them is crap-logic.

Typical that you prefer to create confusion instead of working with SSBF to make sure everything is clear.

Kast · Post Post #1468 (isolation #66) » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:48 pm

@Mod-

I'll be more careful addressing MoI.

@SSBF-
Please answer the questions posed to you.

Kast · Post Post #1474 (isolation #67) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:44 am

@BV310-
Try reading the name of the person who posted that again (when it says Furcolow, that means Kast didn't post it). Consider: your blind devotion to MoI has setup a confirmation bias that is preventing you from objectively reading posts.

Side note, OMGUS isn't limited to only votes, and it just means the primary reason for a vote and/or attack on a player is because they did something that bothers you, ie. something that makes them suck. It's usual form is a retaliatory vote placed in response to a vote that had poor or nonexistant reasoning. Fur is mistaken; MoI's vote is obviously a vote primarily to preserve himself, so not really an OMGUS vote. OMGUS isn't a reliable scumtell anyway.

Kast · Post Post #1475 (isolation #68) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:46 am

@SSBF-
That's fine, but we are running close to deadline so please make sure to answer the questions (and check your PMs) tonight.

Kast · Post Post #1478 (isolation #69) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:02 am

@Iec-
We can wait til SSBF answers, assuming he actually answers tonight. If he goes MIA, what then?

@Kdub-
Your post essentially tells SSBF that he can just stall to save MoI.

Kast · Post Post #1480 (isolation #70) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:15 am

@Iec-
Actually it ties directly with my point to Kdub. SSBF obviously wants MoI to live regardless of whether his PMs say there was a night kill attempt or not. At this point, he can simply stall, and thereby get what he wants.

Kast · Post Post #1493 (isolation #71) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:06 am

Several thoughts to follow as well as a post I wanted to put up at end of last day phase (did not expect Iecerint to make up his mind).

Kast's thoughts from end of D4 wrote:Hey guys. I took the lull in posting as time to think back on this game and here's some stuff that occurred to me:
-Whoever is roleblocking townies is probably ALSO responsible for framing Robocopter.
-This game is actually extremely similar to Avatar Mafia. I think I'm making the same mistake here that I did there (not accounting for mafia lack of info).
Spoiler: ASSUMING MoI IS LYING:
Millar13
Queen of Blades
P. Appears as Sarah Kerrigan on death (ie. Death GF).
A.D. Vote threshold of all players reduced by 1.
?
Netopalis
Samus Aran
?
SpyreX
Cortana
A/P. Learns how many scum were on the lynch wagon. (Exact details unknown; claimed by MoI and similar ability hinted by SpyreX)
A.N.1T. Delayed Coroner (Kast's speculation)
?
Robocopter
Chun Li
P. Vote threshold increased by 1.
A.N.1T. Vote threshold of target is increased by 1.
A.N.?T. Negative effect (unclaimed).
Ythan
Princess Peach
P. Beloved Princess

BV310
?
A.N.1T. (unclaimed-hinted non-watcher).
A.N.1T. (unclaimed-hinted watcher).
?
Furcolow
Tanya Adams
A.N.1T.2S. Role cop
A.N. Commuter (unclaimed-hinted modified)
?
Iecerint
?
A.N.1T.?S. Tracker
A.N.1T.?S. Watcher
A.N.1T.?S. Doctor
?
Kdub
?
?
MagnaOfIllusion
Rikku
A.N.1T. Learn primary ability of target player. Use target player's primary ability. Jailkeep target player.
A.N.1T. Neighborize target player.
?
Super Smash Bros. Fan
Lara Croft
A.N.1T. Affiliation Cop
?
Kast
Ashley Williams
A.N.1T.2S Vigilante kill with kill flavor of “Shot”

Abilities
D1:
Millar (A) uses Zerg Rush to reduce vote threshold by 1.
Netopalis nothing.
SpyreX (A/P) may have used his # of scum on the wagon ability.
Robocopter (P) demonstrates Passive Vote Threshold ability.
Ythan nothing.
BV310 nothing.
Furcolow nothing.
Iecerint nothing.
Kdub nothing.
MagnaOfIllusion nothing.
Super Smash Bros. Fan nothing.
Kast nothing.

N1:
Netopalis ??? (unclaimed)
SpyreX (A/P) may have used his # of scum on the wagon ability. (A) May have used Coroner on Millar13.
Robocopter (A) uses Negative Ability on Furcolow.
Ythan nothing.
BV310 (A) uses ??? (hinted tracker) on Furcolow.
Furcolow (A) Rolecops ???
Iecerint (A) Tracks Ythan.
Kdub ??? (unclaimed)
MagnaOfIllusion (A) Steals Furcolow's Rolecop. (A) Uses Rolecop on SpyreX.
Super Smash Bros. Fan (A) Investigates Robocopter.
Kast (A) Kills Netopalis.
??? (A) Mafia Kill SpyreX.

D2:
Robocopter nothing.
Ythan nothing.
BV310 nothing.
Furcolow nothing.
Iecerint nothing.
Kdub nothing.
MagnaOfIllusion nothing.
Super Smash Bros. Fan nothing.
Kast nothing.

N2:
Ythan nothing.
BV310 (A) uses ??? (hinted watcher) on Kast.
Furcolow (A) Rolecops ???
Iecerint (A) Watches MoI.
Kdub ??? (unclaimed)
MagnaOfIllusion (A) Steals Super Smash Bros. Fan's Cop. (A) Uses Cop on BV310.
Super Smash Bros. Fan (A) Investigates MagnaOfIllusion.
Kast (A) Kills Muffin.
??? (A) Mafia Kill Ythan with kill flavor “Scratched & Torn”.

N3:
BV310 ???
Furcolow (A) Commutes.
Iecerint (A) Docs MoI.
Kdub ??? (unclaimed)
MagnaOfIllusion (A) Neighborizes BV310.
Super Smash Bros. Fan (A) Investigates MagnaOfIllusion.
Kast nothing.

Possibly due to RC's love of flavor, possibly due to the limited reveals of the game, RC has done private flavor confirmations for multiple player abilities (not necessarily names, but confirmations that things happened).
D1- Mod essentially publicly confirmed both the Zerg Rush and Chun Li's immunity.
N1- Mod publicly confirms SpyreX's and Netopalis' deaths. Mod privately confirms Iecerint's visit to Ythan. Mod privately confirms MoI's Rbing Fur to BV.
N2- Mod publicly confirms Ythan's death. Mod privately confirms Kast's attempted kill to SSBF. Mod privately confirms ??? framing of SSBF's investigation to Kast. Mod privately confirms BV's ??? (hinted watching) to Kast. Mod privately confirms activity regarding either MoI OR BV to MoI (probably Iecerint's watching). Mod privately confirms MoI's Rbing to SSBF.
N3- Mod publicly confirms no deaths. Mod privately confirms MoI's Neighborizer to BV. Mod privately confirms ??? failed kill on MoI to Iecerint.

What this suggests:
MoI is lying scum with probable partner Kdub. Kdub is likely the roleblocker. One of them probably has “Destroyed” kill flavor and the other has “Scratched and Torn” kill flavor.

Where this breaks down:
Successful doctor flavor to Iecerint.
Fur never claimed any targets. Also based on reflection of Avatar Mafia, I realized mafia NEED a full, not obvious rolecop in no reveal format.
Also, why the hell would mafia try to NK Fur?
nvm that's obvious, RB muffin kill fur both cops gone.
Dual RB on scum team seems too powerful.
Spoiler: ASSUMING MoI is telling the truth:
Millar13
Queen of Blades
P. Appears as Sarah Kerrigan on death (ie. Death GF).
A.D. Vote threshold of all players reduced by 1.
?
Netopalis
Samus Aran
A.N.1T. Target player is cannot be targeted by other abilities or effects. In addition, all non-kill abilities targeting the user will be copied to the target. If the user is killed, the target also dies with kill flavor “Destroyed”. (Exact details unknown; claimed by MoI)
?
SpyreX
Cortana
A/P. Learns how many scum were on the lynch wagon. (Exact details unknown; claimed by MoI)
?
Robocopter
Chun Li
P. Vote threshold increased by 1.
A.N.1T. Vote threshold of target is increased by 1.
A.N.?T. Negative effect (unclaimed).
Ythan
Princess Peach
P. Beloved Princess

BV310
?
A.N.1T. (unclaimed-hinted non-watcher).
A.N.1T. (unclaimed-hinted watcher).
?
Furcolow
Tanya Adams
A.N.1T.2S. Role cop
A.N. Commuter (unclaimed-hinted modified)
?
Iecerint
?
A.N.1T.?S. Tracker
A.N.1T.?S. Watcher
A.N.1T.?S. Doctor
?
Kdub
?
?
MagnaOfIllusion
Rikku
A.N.1T. Learn primary ability of target player. Role-block target player's primary ability. Use target player's primary ability.
A.N.1T. Neighborize target player.
?
Super Smash Bros. Fan
Lara Croft
A.N.1T. Affiliation Cop
?
Kast
Ashley Williams
A.N.1T.2S Vigilante kill with kill flavor of “Shot”

Abilities
D1:
Millar (A) uses Zerg Rush to reduce vote threshold by 1.
Netopalis nothing.
SpyreX (A/P) may have used his # of scum on the wagon ability.
Robocopter (P) demonstrates Passive Vote Threshold ability.
Ythan nothing.
BV310 nothing.
Furcolow nothing.
Iecerint nothing.
Kdub nothing.
MagnaOfIllusion nothing.
Super Smash Bros. Fan nothing.
Kast nothing.

N1:
Netopalis Grapple Beam on SpyreX
SpyreX (A/P) may have used his # of scum on the wagon ability.
Robocopter (A) uses Negative Ability on Furcolow.
Ythan nothing.
BV310 (A) uses ??? (hinted tracker) on Furcolow.
Furcolow (A) Rolecops ???
Iecerint (A) Tracks Ythan.
Kdub ??? (unclaimed)
MagnaOfIllusion (A) Steals Furcolow's Rolecop. (A) Uses Rolecop on Netopalis.
Super Smash Bros. Fan (A) Investigates Robocopter.
Kast (A) Kills Netopalis.
??? (A) Mafia Kill SpyreX.

D2:
Robocopter nothing.
Ythan nothing.
BV310 nothing.
Furcolow nothing.
Iecerint nothing.
Kdub nothing.
MagnaOfIllusion nothing.
Super Smash Bros. Fan nothing.
Kast nothing.

N2:
Ythan nothing.
BV310 (A) uses ??? (hinted watcher) on Kast.
Furcolow (A) Rolecops ???
Iecerint (A) Watches MoI.
Kdub ??? (unclaimed)
MagnaOfIllusion (A) Steals Super Smash Bros. Fan's Cop. (A) Uses Cop on BV310.
Super Smash Bros. Fan (A) Investigates MagnaOfIllusion.
Kast (A) Kills Muffin.
??? (A) Mafia Kill Ythan with kill flavor “Scratched & Torn”.

N3:
BV310 ???
Furcolow (A) Commutes.
Iecerint (A) Docs MoI.
Kdub ??? (unclaimed)
MagnaOfIllusion (A) Neighborizes BV310.
Super Smash Bros. Fan (A) Investigates MagnaOfIllusion.
Kast nothing.

Possibly due to RC's love of flavor, possibly due to the limited reveals of the game, RC has done private flavor confirmations for multiple player abilities (not necessarily names, but confirmations that things happened).
D1- Mod essentially publicly confirmed both the Zerg Rush and Chun Li's immunity.
N1- Mod publicly confirms SpyreX's and Netopalis' deaths. Mod privately confirms Iecerint's visit to Ythan. Mod privately confirms MoI's Rbing Fur to BV.
N2- Mod publicly confirms Ythan's death. Mod privately confirms Kast's attempted kill to SSBF. Mod privately confirms ??? framing of SSBF's investigation to Kast. Mod privately confirms BV's ??? (hinted watching) to Kast. Mod privately confirms activity regarding either MoI OR BV to MoI (probably Iecerint's watching). Mod privately confirms MoI's Rbing to SSBF.
N3- Mod publicly confirms no deaths. Mod privately confirms MoI's Neighborizer to BV. Mod privately confirms ??? failed kill on MoI to Iecerint.

Where this breaks down:
Kill flavor screw-up on N1.
SSBF surviving the kill on N2.

What this suggests:
Furcolow is lying scum with probable partner Kdub. Kdub is likely the roleblocker who also has some specialized (probably one shot unblockable) kill that was used on Ythan. Fur probably investigated someone on N2 and tried to kill MoI on N3 (failed to Iecerint's doctor).

@Kill on Kdub-
I did and I didn't.

Spoiler: Why Kdub?

Spoiler: Why 2-shot claim?

Spoiler: What happened?*

Additional Thoughts:
-On seeing Spyrex flip and hearing that Spyrex (Cortana) was actually responsible for the delayed flips, it strongly reinforces my suspicion that MoI was scum. He claims to have role-copped Spyrex, but did not share the delayed coroner ability.
--Seems odd that Chun Li was included in the delayed flip since Cortana was dead before Chun Li.
--Seems odd that Cortana revealed alignment, but nothing confirmed for the others. If we assume the mention of Netopalis having a contract on Cortana is game relevant, then it makes the Grapple Beam claim much less plausible (why use a protective ability on someone you need to kill).
--

Speculation

- I wonder if BV's death was an attempt to prevent him from confirming MoI as scum due to some statement from their private thread (ie. if MoI said something about Spyrex which gets contradicted by Cortana's delayed coroner reveal).

-However, on seeing Kdub die but the game not ending, it either means we have a third party (possible, but unlikely) or MoI was town and Fur is the remaining mafia.
--Less likely, but this possibility also occurs, is that Kdub has some kind of fake death ability (though using my flavor makes it almost unthinkable).

-We still have no info on how/why Muffin survived my kill attempt from N2.
--SSBF please share your investigation results.
--If you have more info on how you survived Night 2, then please share it.

-Fur you have several points that have not been answered:
--Who was your night targets (I know you claimed to be blocked but if you weren't blocked who were you going to target)?
--Do you have any private flavor PMs that involve any other players (actually please share all flavor PMs that you have)?

Kast · Post Post #1494 (isolation #72) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:08 am

I was also considering switching my vote with my post yesterday; mod can confirm that post game.

After seeing the delayed reveals, I felt very comfortable with MoI's lynch. After seeing Kdub flip but game not ending, I am not nearly as comfortable anymore.

Kast · Post Post #1496 (isolation #73) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:17 pm

-I don't think Iecerint cares about the order as long as he can claim last.

-If anyone disagrees with my analysis of Kdub as the scumteam RBer, please say so. The sexy teen roleblocker is obviously Morrigan (a succubus).
--Also note, Kdub as RBer was only discernible after everyone made their flavor claims on D4, so that's minor evidence that it was a legitimate attempt to kill scum made on N4.

At this point, there's 1 confirmed mafia and 1 nigh-confirmed mafia. Since the game has not ended, we either have 1 mafia still alive, 1+ independent(s) still alive, or a combination.

If mafia, I'm leaning to Fur (meaning MoI was either lying town or town with mod-screwing around).
If independent, it's a toss-up (from other PoV, I guess I'd be the most probable).
If both, then I'd go for the Fur lynch. Arguably, town could aim for the mafia/potential SK cross kill and when they see I have no kills tomorrow just finish off Fur.

Kast · Post Post #1497 (isolation #74) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:22 pm

Oh and just got confirmation PM from Mod that I didn't actually shoot (or at least that I still have my shot available).

So yeah, unless someone copied my ability, there's someone else with a kill that uses bullets out there.

Interesting.

Kast · Post Post #1500 (isolation #75) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:42 pm

@Fur-
If your claim is true, then please explain:
-Your previous claim to have only 2 shot investigation.
-Unless you think BV310 was killing himself (unlikely at best), then BV310 is the person who shot Kdub.
--If you think I am an SK, then why was there no kill from me on N3 AND N4?

-Please answer the questions I asked of you.
--Additionally, what changed between today and yesterday that makes you think I am an SK and not a vig?

Kast · Post Post #1502 (isolation #76) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:47 pm

To be clear, I don't doubt Fur's claimed investigation result. I think it's entirely possible that BV310 either has his own shooting ability OR somehow copied my rapid fire ability. I also dropped hints that Kdub was likely Morrigan prior to him denying the claim yesterday, so I think it is reasonable that BV310 picked up on that and would have killed Kdub.

I do doubt his honesty in light of his previous (and apparently unnecessary) claim to have no more investigations. At this point, I also doubt his honesty about commuting, since his claimed reason for commuting was because he had no more investigations left. If he did have investigations left, then why did he claim commuting and claim no more investigations? In light of recent evidence, the claim is likely made in order to explain the no kill (otherwise MoI would have been cleared by Iecerint).

Kast · Post Post #1503 (isolation #77) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:50 pm

All that said, today I'd support a lynch of Fur OR a no lynch (during which I'll use my delayed kill on Fur and he's welcome to aim for the cross kill).

Note: if I do get killed tonight, my delayed kill will be prevented, so remaining town would still have to lynch Fur and couldn't try covering bases by lynching someone else.

Kast · Post Post #1507 (isolation #78) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:30 pm

@Iecerint-
I'm guessing the flavor about BV having a pistol probably means he had a vengeful bodyguard ability (or whatever it's called when the bodyguard kills the killer if he successfully stops a kill).

Mod also clarified that I shouldn't necessarily assume the voice telling me to stop was an ability targeting me; my not shooting is a result of my ability being unnecessary (the exact phrase sounds oddly similar to what BV said as the reason his targeting of Fur failed). To be clear, he is not confirming that I was not targeted by anyone, but given his answer to the question and separately stating my lack of taking a shot is due to not being necessary, I feel it's safe to assume I wasn't targeted by an actual roleblock.

I stated that Kdub was most likely the roleblocker here and hinted at Morrigan here though did not state her name directly. Actually, I was more explicit about the speculation in my private game notes (mod can attest post-game), though I wasn't sure if it was Morrigan or Lilith.

Anyway, now that the game is pretty much solved (solved from my PoV), the similarities with Avatar mafia are ridiculously huge (though we get way more info from the detailed flavor and I'm sorry for scum because that's really what saved us).

@SSBF-
-The map might also represent the people he has observed/investigated.
-I'm also guessing that the dual pistols found in Fur's room indicate Fur did not carry out the night kill.

@Fur-
It was EXTREMELY bad play on all of our parts for not pressing you to claim who you WOULD HAVE targeted if you weren't roleblocked on previous days. It's mindbogglingly inexplicable in hindsight, and it doesn't fit at all with what I'd normally expect from any townie ESPECIALLY not one who has had pressure on him for most of the game as you have had.

Please ask the mod about any map and/or pistols.

@Course of Action-
Best thing would be to just lynch Fur and we win. It gives the benefit that in case SSBF or Iecerint is scum, there's a final chance to stop them.

However, it'll take three votes to lynch Fur, and if Iecerint doesn't trust me, then we should be okay with a no lynch (I doubt Fur can double kill and I doubt there is a third party). No lynch will mean Fur has no option but to shoot me. If he does not shoot me, then he will die on Night 6 BEFORE he gets to kill anyone else.

Well, we'll actually end the game on Day 6 since I'll be dead, so Iec and SSBF can lynch Fur (assuming no special voting mechanics...unlikely since Millar had that).

Short of it is:
Iec and SSBF's claims don't change anything for me. If you guys feel safe with lynching Fur, then let's do that. If not let's No Lynch and I'll count on you two to lynch Fur tomorrow for the win.

@Fur-
You're doomed. How about surrendering instead of forcing us to play it out?

@SideNote-
Situations like this are when it would be so much nicer if we could just endgame caught scum instead of being forced to play it out and letting scum stall.

Kast · Post Post #1510 (isolation #79) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:34 pm

Spoiler: Solved Game

Updated my speculations/solution to the game. I think I got everything, though it's possible I missed stuff.

Answers to your questions contained within, though to make it easier:
-The "lack" of [my] kill N2 is the only hole I see in this solution. It's solved if MoI's thief ability has a jailkeeper aspect that he doesn't know about OR if RC is including some hidden mechanic interactions (what I'm currently suspecting) such as the cancelling my Focus Fire when it is redundant, and canceling BV's bodyguard on Fur when it was unnecessary.
-He probably did kill before; the kill on Ythan is probably his doing (guessing Queen of Blades shares a kill method with Morrigan, and thus two mafia kill with scratched & torn, one kills with shot, and two towns kill with shot). I'm Kdub's kill is an either kill OR use the RB, so N1 and N3 were using RB and N2 and N4 were using Kdub.
-He probably investigated BV and they let Kdub try to kill SSBF.

Kast · Post Post #1511 (isolation #80) » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:37 pm

EBWOP:
-The "lack" of [my] kill N2 is the only hole I see in this solution. It's solved if MoI's thief ability has a jailkeeper aspect that he doesn't know about OR if RC is including some hidden mechanic interactions (what I'm currently suspecting) such as the cancelling my Focus Fire when it is redundant, and canceling BV's bodyguard on Fur when it was unnecessary.

This case would be my kill fails if the target is out doing whatever SSBF was doing at that time.

-He

[Kdub]

probably did kill before; the kill on Ythan is probably his

[Kdub's]

doing (guessing Queen of Blades shares a kill method with Morrigan, and thus two mafia kill with scratched & torn, one kills with shot, and two towns kill with shot). I'm

[guessing]

Kdub's kill is an either kill OR use the RB, so N1 and N3 were using RB and N2 and N4 were using Kdub.
-He

[Fur]

probably investigated BV and they let Kdub try to kill SSBF.

Kast · Post Post #1515 (isolation #81) » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:01 am

@Iec-
-As I said, I think Kdub can either kill OR roleblock. On N1 and N3, he obviously roleblocked and probably didn't kill. On N2 and N4 he probably killed INSTEAD OF roleblocking.
-BV claimed that his ability on N1 failed due to being unnecessary. This could be a sign that mod is using some non-standard/hidden role mechanics (it could also mean MoI's Thief ability protects his target without him knowing).

2. If Kdub targeted bv last night rather than Furc, why did Furc freak out like that?

-He [Fur] probably investigated BV and they let Kdub try to kill SSBF.

Fur probably targeted BV. Kdub probably targeted SSBF. Fur is probably going "WTF!?!" that Kdub's target (SSBF) didn't die, and instead BV died with Kdub's kill flavor. If he got tracked to BV he's going to be in hot water regardless of whether he actually tried killing BV or was using a non-kill but BV died anyway.

For now gonna

Vote: Fur

. If you guys want to do a no lynch instead, then say so and I'll switch, but it sounds like SSBF knows what's what, so it'll probably just be Iec's call.

Kast · Post Post #1518 (isolation #82) » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:17 am

@Fur-

so he is attacking me acting like i attacked bv310

Explain this. What attack on BV310 are you referring to?

i will share ANY of the flavor i got out of the rolecheck at ANY time because I am town

Your flavor has been requested since D2 and you still have barely shared any of it. I didn't pursue much on D4 because I strongly thought MoI was scum. Since you're offering, then please deliver on your claim. Share all the flavor you have from every day/night (just like everyone else has done).

Kast · Post Post #1520 (isolation #83) » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:42 am

@Fur-
-Your memory doesn't completely match up with your posts; aside from MoI and BV, why did you abandon all your other beliefs? D4 you were "sure" that Kast was town vig, MoI was scum, and one of {BV310, Kdub, or Iecerint} was MoI's scum buddy.

Assuming you really believed that at the time, then why is it inconceivable for BV310 to be a town bodyguard and one of Kdub/Iecerint being the last scum? Your current suspicion and OMGUS vote mark a complete dropping of everything you've been stating and only came after and in direct response to me sharing my thoughts and pointing you out as probable scum.

--If you really believe I am an SK and the only remaining scum, then why not go for a no lynch to prove it?

You have not answered the questions:
-Share your Night Action Targets and Reasons:
--Who did you target on N1 and why?
--Who did you target on N2 and why?
--Why did you target BV310 on N4?
-How did investigate BV310 since you already claimed you used up your 2 shot investigation?
--Why did you hide on N3 instead of investigating?

-Flavor:
--Share ALL your flavor that you have received since the game began. Please paraphrase (unless you want to get mod killed).

Kast · Post Post #1521 (isolation #84) » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:57 am

What attack on BV310 are you referring to?

i am saying that I was heavily thinking bv310/moi were a scumteam
you are attacking me like that with no reasoning, because you are an sk, and you want a mislynch

Also, I really can't understand you. This is what I think you are saying, correct me if it is wrong:

1) You are comparing my attack on you to your attack on BV310 on D4.
1.1) You are claiming that your attack on BV310 was based on no reasoning, instead it was based on (gut) heavily thinking BV/MoI were a scum team.
1.2) You are claiming that my attack on you is similarly based on no reasoning, instead it is based on wanting a mislynch.

Assuming that is correct, here are my responses:
1) Are you claiming that you were scummy when you attacked BV310? If you were not scummy, then why would someone else doing the same thing be scummy? Also, I posted all the reasoning behind my thoughts of you as the last mafia. You might not realize, but if you click the button next to the spoiler, it reveals all the text that I wrote inside the spoiler. So, I disagree that my attack on you is anything at all like your attack on BV.
1.1) Are you claiming your attack on BV310 was weak and that you knew it was weak? I don't know how else to read this.
1.2) Firstly, wanting a mislynch and providing reasoning are not mutually exclusive. Secondly, I provided a lot of explanation of my reasons. If you disagree with them, then say so. Disagreeing with a reason does not mean there was no reason. If you missed them, try clicking the "SHOW" button and reading, OR just read the summary of my thoughts.

Kast · Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:27 am

@Iec-
The claimed sexy-flavor RBs happened on N1 to Robo and N3 to Muffin (SSBF).

Fur has also claimed that it happened to him on N2. Sort of. The others claimed they had visits in their dreams (ie. succubus). Fur claimed a straight out visit with no mention of dreams. If Fur is scum with Kdub, then he was lying about the roleblock to cover for his ally.

Kast · Post Post #1527 (isolation #86) » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:32 am

@Fur-
Your buddy killed BV and BV killed him back. Do you have a point or are you just venting frustration?

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:08 am

@Iec-
BV didn't protect Muffin N2. He targeted me N2 and MoI and BV both confirmed this.

Muffin surviving N2 is the main unknown/indeterminable factor. One possible explanation is that MoI's ability has a jailkeeper effect that MoI was unaware of. This is supported by BV being unable to target Fur on N1. Another possibility is that BV used an ability to stop my kill (unlikely due to no flavor of this). Another possibility is that Muffin/SSBF has a passive bulletproof ability that he may not know about (or that he thought was safer to not reveal).

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:29 am

Fur wrote:on the first night i was visited by a hot girl, and was rolecockblocked. The second night I decided to use my other ability, which was to go into hiding for a night. The more I'm looking at this game, the more I am suspicious of MoI, especially with what happened in that harry potter game.

Fur wrote:first of the two and second of the two if i said it that way

Ythan died on Night 2 (the "first" of the two). So unless you could hide twice, then your claim now does not match your previous claim.

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:32 am

Fur wrote:I wish I could, but I've had trouble with thieves and roleblockers on using it. Let me check my role PM in a new window. It states that I will observe a player and interrogate them, and that I can do it twice a game. I would have been able to do it twice, I mean, if it hadn't been stolen by the person I'm about to put my vote on.

You also have not explained how you were able to investigate again even though you previously claimed your ability was 2 shot and you've "used" it twice already.

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:34 am

Also, please paraphrase all the flavor information that you have heard from the mod from the beginning of the game until now.

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:44 am

@Fur-
-There have been 4 nights. You hid on one night. You used your investigation on the three other nights.

MoI blocked you on Night 1. That's one use.
You claim Kdub blocked you on Night 2. That's the two uses.
You claim to have investigated BV on Night 4. That's three uses.

-You should share the flavor since everyone asked you to share it and you promised you would share it. Are you reneging on your previous statement?

Fur wrote:i will share ANY of the flavor i got out of the rolecheck at ANY time because I am town

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:47 am

@Iec-
If you have any more questions or anything for making your decision, then please ask them. With Fur refusing to share flavor, I don't see any more relevant discussion topics.

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:56 am

@Fur-
If you investigated me, then please share what your investigation revealed.

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:11 pm

So, shall we chalk this up to you forgetting to tell us about your day investigation power?

Kast · Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:19 pm

You already claimed that you investigated BV. Since you claim you had blocked investigations on N1 and N2, and you claim you hid on N3, then when did you have time to investigate me?

To be clear, are you claiming that you are mafia and your previous night claims were lies?

Kast · Post Post #1550 (isolation #96) » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:33 am

@Iec-
If claiming that means you won't lynch him, then probably. He's just saying anything now to prevent getting lynched.

@Fur-
You've really played a good VI game. If I play with you again, I'll have to keep that in mind.

But at this point you're already lost, might as well come clean. The best you can swing will be a no lynch, and unless you have double kills or vote manipulation, you're still going to lose. I'm really interested to see how close the solution matches the actual setup and hear the explanations for how SSBF survived N2.

Kast · Post Post #1552 (isolation #97) » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:17 pm

Well, enjoy your weekends all. I doubt anything new is gonna happen between now and then, but if any questions come up I'll get to them prolly on Tuesday.

Kast · Post Post #1599 (isolation #98) » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:15 am

@Mod-
Very nice game, thanks for running/asking me to replace in.
Thoughts on flavor:
-The flavor was really well written and made the game a lot more fun and interesting.
-I realize now that I parsed the rapid fire ability wrong; I thought it simply meant I had a chance to hit-or-miss an additional target instead of a chance to miss [the original target] PLUS a chance to hit a different target.

Thoughts on Balance:
-Overall the game felt pretty balanced, with slight advantage to town.
--Scum were pretty powerful, but so were town. Millar's D1 Zerg Rush was a gambit that could have gone really well for the scum team, but he used it on the wrong person.
--The detailed game flavor was a huge boon for town. I guess it's a balance mechanism against the limited reveals and against the many chance to fail abilities; but ultimately it helped "confirm" each other and I think was a net benefit for town.
--Game balance also kinda gave away Fur; if Iec hadn't hammered MoI, I was about to switch my position and hammer Fur myself based on setup/balance since scum would very much want/need a role cop in this setup. I just wasted time writing out my post and PMing it to the mod while I arranged my thoughts before actually going to post and just barely missed Iec's hammer.

Thoughts to Town:
-Nicely played to town and especially Iec and Muffin/SSBF. Always awesome to see townies set aside their preconceptions when contrary information pops up; it doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it should.

Thoughts to Scum:
-Most of the Fur hate is just hindsight complaints. Fur's "scummy" VI behavior was almost identical to Ythan's "scummy" VI behavior. The attacks of him being useless apply just as much to Robo's early play, if not more so. It's common to lots of players on this site.
--That's not to say he wasn't scummy at all, but he didn't do that terribly and people are giving him a way harder time than he deserves.
--However, the dropping to straight out insulting the players you disagree with is bad sportsmanship and really doesn't belong in any game (same for Ythan...). If nothing else, I'd strongly suggest not doing that anymore.
--Not sure how much of it was an act, but it would help to figure out your false claim and stick firmly with that even when you think you are going to be lynched. I've never seen changing your story when you get under pressure to be an effective defense.
-Kdub you played extremely similarly to the way you did in Avatar Mafia. That (+ process of elimination & game balance) gave you away. The active lurking thing seems to work pretty well for you when others don't have meta on it, but you may want to be a bit more active and/or bus harder next time.
-Millar's gambit could have been awesome, but his play after it failed just fell apart.