Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful (Game Over)
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Kast tl;dr
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Did not receive role PM yet, but confirming that I will be replacing in. Halfway through with re-read. I'll refrain from any more posts til I've caught up AND received a role PM.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
M: 8/2/1
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Kast tl;dr
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Okay, catch up post to follow then a summary post (catch up was already written as I read but prior to opening my role PM, summary will be written after the catch up is posted).
But since it seems important:
I am Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams, System Alliance Sharpshooter. I have a two-shot night kill which was used N1 on Neto and N2 on Muffin. Shotty was telling the truth.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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D1 case on Robo was complete BS. Major +scum on Netopalis for excessive misrepresentation. In general, the irrational but very opportunistic attacks on Robo sound like scum looking for an excuse. This fits well if he expected his buddy to deal a finishing blow and end the day early.
@Muffin-
Sounds fake. Contextual posts also feel like distancing/bussing a weaker teammember.
@MoI-
Goodpost. Disagree with the vote analysis. Timing indicates Millar was waiting for someone to place an "effective" L-1 so he could "hammer". If there's a buddy helping him, Neto's vote is the most probable one.
@Neto-
I bet you're hating having Millar as a buddy.
Tagteam mafia action.
@Ythan-
Didn't have much of a read but this made me realise I disagree with the guy on a lot of theory, but I'm getting a semi-active town who doesn't know any better read. Not a weak player, but not the go-to guy for analysis.
@Kdub-
Playing a careful game (as normal). Pretty reasonable on the whole so far.
@Fur-
Reads like a weak player. If town, scum will likely aim a mislynch at this guy.
@MoI-
Taking Millar more seriously than needs to be done... Could just be trying to be thorough...
You're also harping on something that's easily understood. His claim doesn't prove him town. He's admitted it already; it does make him a bad lynch for D1. You pushing this despite that isn't productive.Side note: given the limited/delayed reveals, game balance argues town has investigative or informational roles.
@Spyrex-
You make games interesting, both as a player or a mod. Return to this thought on successful (or not) execution of proposal.
@Robo-
Typical town overestimating his own value. Claimed detective OR detective's claimed target are the obvious NKs (assuming they are town).
This child was deprived. Or he's a liar.
Bad play.
@iec-
Not getting a strong read on iec.
Didn't note if you were the first to propose this crap case, but if you are, it's complete BS to assume Tanya is a fake claim for Kerrigan.Spoiler: The Tanya claim fits.
@Muffin-
Getting cold feet about your bus?
@D2 Opening-
Robo don't be an idiot. Furcolow's hammer, despite not waiting for a claim, is indicative of town if anything. Agreed the Spyrex death sounds like the scum NK, especially given his soft claiming.
@Ythan-
Lol, did you miss the memo on the theme of this game? Also, did you consider that Fur may have investigated you last nightlike he said he was going to?
Separate note, on reading your D2 posts you seem unreasonably upset.
@Fur-
Very interesting. I'm going to have to think about the likelihood that a delayed reveal game would also allow scum to mess with town information abilities.
@Ythan-
I hope resorting to personal attacks isn't your idea of appropriate play. It isn't.
@Muffin-
You'd be more serious and plausible if you didn't pull this out of thin air. As it is, reads like a manufactured wall of text PBP. Not buying this. I agree that Ythan has made some completely nonsensical posts, and his grasp of mafia theory is far lacking...but you aren't really showing he is scum, and more importantly, if you really took issue with so much of his posting, then why was there no mention of this in previous days?
@Lol @Global RB and it's debunking.
@Robo-
Why would you target Fur?Later post makes this not so weird.
@MoI-
The question to BV makes no sense. It's a logical line of thinking that YOU started. Two players targetted the same person and both their abilities failed. The person targetted also has his abilities blocked (and stolen). If they are telling the truth, the obvious explanation is a jailkeeper on Fur (potentially a jailkeeper who steals powers).
Speculation: MoI stole Fur's role cop power and used it to investigate Shotty. Realized Shotty can kill and assumed scum.This explains the incredulity at BV assuming Fur was untargetable.
@Iec-
Neto's play was opportunistic and, if you actually follow his reasoning, erratic (disjoint). He was an EXCELLENT vig target and I'm really happy that my predecessor killed him. I'd have taken the exact same shot.
@Fur-
Some agreement. Ythan's posts D2 are extremely rude in general. A lot of what he's posted doesn't belong in any friendly mafia game. You're perfectly fine not making yourself respond to that and making it clear why you aren't responding. If Ythan wants a response, there's an easy way to fix it. At that point, I'd expect to see you answer.
Robo describes a classic actress or prostitute roleblock. It has nothing to do with his maturity. That's an irrelevant personal shot that is hypocritical coming in the same paragraph you object to Ythan's behavior.
Millar is a bad player by conventional standards. He's better as scum than as town, but that's mostly since his buddies can gain points by bussing him.
Your inadequacies as a mafia player are no reason to suspect another player.Ythan wrote:which makes no sense that I can even imagine, is terrible play.
@Robo-
I should have addressed this sooner, but Robo is right that his ability makes him almost definitely town. Increased lynch threshold is typically a town power since it autowins almost every endgame scenario for scum (especially if he can also grant it to others, but since that's not demonstrated we'll leave that aside). Scum can easily trump it by killing the townie, and in a vig heavy game it might be feasible as a scum power, but we don't have any evidence to indicate that.
@Kdub-
Dislike the lurking. Post more please.
@MoI-
Non-VT game suggestion with BP as a balancing move is plausible.
@Iec-
Good post. Very solid analysis.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Muffin's early vote and later justification of that vote sounds like a bus. The confidence in his attacks immediately after the ZR is striking and (imo) telling.MoI wrote:If you believe millar was scum do you think Muffin would bus as hard as happened Day 1 with millar? He put together a rather large post attacking him and was on millar’s ass all Day.
@Muffin-
Interesting claim. I have a strong scum read on Muffin, but a blatant cop claim is...not something that should be lynched. Strong questions on why investigate Robo though...
Btw- mafia false claiming cop should beexpectedin any format where death does not reveal affiliation.
@Ythan-
@N2,N3,D4-Without thinking, this guy wrote:If you're town be glad that we have sure scum in the morning.
No deaths is great, except that Muffin should have died.
Again, jailkeeper possibility rises, but the flavor claim that it was passively self hiding (as opposed to someone pushing her into a closet) makes it odd.
@Iec-
This is not as confusing as you're making it out to be. Muffin isn't claiming a separate investigative power (which would be a revisionist scum-tell of fake claiming), he's obviously claiming that Lara's flavor assumes sanity due to some item (artifact/object/whatever), but after the failure with Chun Li, she realizes she doesn't have the item that assures sanity. It's still kinda questionable.
This needs some confirmations.Night 1 – I stole Furcolow’s ability. I wanted to confirm his claim that he was an Ability cop. His powers derive from a pair Binoculars that allow him to Observe someone and determine their powers. I used this power to observe Neto Night 1. Neto’s main ability was Grapple Beam. This ability could be used on a player. That player would be immune from ANY night abilities that targeted them directly. Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target. Neto targeted Spyrex Night 1. Thus I also got to observe Spyrex’s power. Spyrex could ‘Hack the System’ to determine the number of Evil players on a lynch.
-Fur, please confirm whether your ability is what MoI stated.
-Muffin, confirm that your abilities come from an IDD.
-@Mod, please confirm the results of the following two hypothetical roles and night choices:Hypothetical Role wrote:Each night you may pick a target player. Any abilities that target you will also be used on the target.Standard Vig wrote:Each night you may pick a target player to kill. Your kill flavor is "shot".Code: Select all
Hypothetical Role targets Vanilla Townie 1. Standard Vig targets Hypothetical Role. Nobody else takes any night actions.
SituationA:
Code: Select all
Following Day Begins With: Hypothetical Role was Shot Vanilla Townie 1 was Shot
SituationB:
Code: Select all
Following Day Begins With: Hypothetical Role was Shot Vanilla Townie 1 was killed (in a different manner from Shot)
Based on MoI's claim about Grapple Beam providing targetting immunityand copying effects to the target, BUT having the result that Neto and Spyrex died in DIFFERENT manners, conclusion is that MoI is lying about the Grapple Beam.
For that matter, Grapple Beam sounds like a scum ability; he can protect a suspected buddy from investigations (and anything else) or make himself investigate as innocent (as his target).
From redundancy perspective, Fur is essentially a confirmed role cop, MoI's claim is essentially a role cop + blocker + gets to use the person's ability. Balance issues much?
The claim about Muffin seems to hold...somewhat. It's reading like MoI is a jailkeeper/ability thief. This explains why BV failed to target Fur. This explains how Muffin survived but was also blocked. There is likely an additional scum team member with role blocking abilities who coordinated with MoI to initially block Robo and then block Muffin.
-I will confirm that Mod informed me that Shotty took no action on N3, but his kills were as he stated and he told the truth that his kill was a 2-shot that is now unusable.
If this is true, (or if Millar was trying to help his team by implying that) then he should be punished and his team should potentially also be punished. I don't think it's actually true. That's a very fitting thing based on his past behavior.Muffin wrote:You know that might also explain why millar came back in to the thread multiple times with "FU FURC"-type posts. Pissed off for getting bussed so hard?
@Muffin-
Why did you investigate MoI and why did you investigate Robo?
@Iec-
This is bad town play. You need to look at and evaluate MoI based on the objective claimed information, instead of ignoring the objective information in favor of subjective "pro-town play". Goodposting can come from scum if they are goodplayers. It is scum's BEST defense. Evaluate the objective information.Iec wrote:I think it's unlikely that MoI is scum. He looked like the most obvtown player in the game for me, and there was no kill the night I protected him.
@MoI-
This is a bit hard to believe. If true, then you had no reason not to get suspected mafia-Shotty lynched. Conversely, if you are mafia this makes perfect sense as you identify the vig, setup for a future mislynch, and find out who the vig suspects so you know whether you have to worry about him or not.2. Day 2 is the perfect time for a Mafian to claim the Neto kill as a Vig. It was the sole reason I floated the idea. I knew Spyrex wasn’t a direct Mafia kill. If Shotty is Mafia who made the kill then claiming he Vigged Neto prevents a Track / Watch result from screwing him. He could then claim limited shot and have his partner(s) make future kills.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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Summary:
I agree with Shotty's target choices, and, until hearing MoI's claim, Muffin would have been my top suspect for today. I'm assuming he tried to kill Muffin because he suspected him.
The problem with this town failing to see the reasons for killing Neto illustrates that most of this town is easily taken in by apparently rational play and attempts to "help" the town. Neto was opportunistic and irrational in his early D1 play. He was almost as bad as Ythan, minus the cursing and personal insults.
– bv310: Not much to say on BV, he's a semi-active player as is. His claim to have been blocked when targetting Fur lends support to MoI as a jailkeeper/power stealer.
– Furcolow: Hammering Millar clears him. MoI confirming his power also helps, though it also damns MoI. It means there are two rolecops in this game, a 2 shot full role cop and a role+flavor cop+RB+Ability Thief. For balance purposes this is unlikely.
– Iecerint: Claim is plausible. Follows MoI a bit too much. Please do some analysis on the objective claims and events of the game so far, then repost thoughts.
– Kdub: Semi-active though nothing extreme. I dislike the lurking. PoE leaves him as the most likely straight up role-blocker. Debatable on whether this would be scum or town who has just been helping scum inadvertently.
– MagnaofIllusion: The claim about the Grapple Beam has a hole. There's no way RC would make a kill flavor mistake; if you've played with him or even just looking at the rich flavor in this game, it's clear that an ability as MoI claimed would copy the kill AND it's kill flavor.
– Muffin: His D1 play strongly indicated a Millar bus, as did his "bad" investigation result. Inexplicably surviving Shotty's NK is another odd point. However, if MoI is scum, it seems very unlikely that Muffin is also scum.
Vote: MoI
Preview Edit:
I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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Also:
This is ridiculous. As mod can confirm, my post in here to let you all know I was replacing was just a courtesy to you all and done prior to me getting a role PM or finishing a read on the thread.You lose +like points when you refrain from claiming immediately. Just sayin.
It's a disservice that would discourages and punishes replacement players.
@Mod and all-
As noted in sig, I'll be VLA this and pretty much every weekend. If you have additional thoughts or questions, post them and I'll answer on Monday.
@Iec-
Please share reactions to discrepancy between MoI's claim about Grapple Beam and difference in kill flavors.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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@Iec-
-Not sure why it matters what I think about claim order; MoI is obv-scum from his lie about N1.
-Post-game, you should seriously rethink your response to replacement players. Claiming that a mod confirmed replacement who hasn't even received a role is scummy for waiting to receive his role before confirming that role is absolutely ridiculous. It's also just plain terrible play for a townie to replace in and immediately claim without reading or catching up. That said, I don't get any scummy reads from your reaction; it reads like you just aren't looking at things from an objective PoV and probably don't have much experience with an appropriate handling of such a situation.
@Iec/BV-
BV: To be clear, you are claiming MoI used his second ability (N3) on you and it confirms him as town to you. Is this correct? If it does not actually confirm MoI, then please clarify. Regardless, please share your thoughts on the discrepancy I raised.
Iec: Correct and agreed. However, if your post is a response to BV, then you might want to reread BV's post; he isn't referring to the Thief ability.
@Muffin-
You should read all posts in context. You do it in some instances but ignore that where it suits; you can probably improve your game with more consistency.
-Your attack on millar is entirely consistent with a bus. It isn't "reaching" or "grasping". Telling us you would do something different if you were scum is an invalid defense.
-Agreed that you only found Ythan scummy after the interplay. That's what I called you out for (lulz). You went from almost no comment to suddenly finding every single post from Ythan to be lacking and/or indicative of him being scum. It's obviously a case of forcing an interpretation to fit your suspicion; INSTEAD OF forming a conclusion based on the evidence. If you really took so much issue with Ythan's posts, then it makes no sense that you would say absolutely NOTHING about it prior to your decision that he was scum.
--And lol at weak straw man. I posted my thoughts of Ythan; he is not a logical/rational player, and he resorts to emotion and personal attacks for pushing his cases. He is not very effective at scumhunting; I explicitly agreed with you about that (you even quoted it ). That does not show him to be scum. Do you expect irrational/constant appeal to emotion/constant ad hom players to be good at scum hunting? I don't (it would be nice if they turned out to be) and certainly didn't expect anything from Ythan.
-Read more carefully.
--I never stated that your play being consistent with scum play means you are scum. Showing that something is not a reason to dismiss a possibility does not mean it is a proof of that possibility. Logic fail.
--Pay attention to context. Regardless, you have not been the most clear. To be clear, the flavor of your investigation ability was not originally tied to the IDD; on night 2 you were informed of the IDD being gone as part of the flavor for not being able to investigate. Is that correct, and if not, please elaborate. Ultimately, the point of the question is to gauge whether MoI's claim is consistent with what you know. Is it or is it not?
--I don't think you are scum now. Pay attention. You'll seriously improve your game if you realize that conclusions should be formedbased on evidenceinstead of evidence interpretedbased on preconceptions. If you read through a game and a player has 5 notable events, 4 of which indicate probable scum, but 1 of which proves the player is not scum, the rational (read=correct) move is to conclude the player is NOT scum. Conversely, if a player is acting in an entirely pro-town manner, but has an objective contradiction that shows they are lying scum, then the right thing to do is lynch the scum.
@MoI-
Given that rules state this is a Limited/Delayedreveal game and we have already seen that the delayed reveal shows true affiliation, your argument holds no merit. The attempt to lynch me is an obvious attempt to get rid of the vig before we see Neto's flip.
-Explain why you targeted Neto.
-Explain why you chose to steal/block a cop instead of block/confirming someone you claim to strongly believe was scum.
-Neto and Fur have clear differences in playstyle. Neto's votes are inconsistent with his claims to be a logical player and actual play which showed more rational capabilities outside of his single-minded and opportunistic ones.
-It's straight forward vote analysis. Just because you can't understand it doesn't make that a valid dismissal. You can tell us you don't understand how 1 + 1 = 2, but that doesn't make it any less true.
-Claiming mod flavor indicates number of remaining scum is ridiculous. Kill flavor is a GAME MECHANIC, not meaningless flavor. You are reaching.
-Your claim that "destroyed" is "generic kill flavor" likely betrays inside knowledge on scum kill method. Nothing indicates this anywhere else or in any way. It also goes against your initial claim of abilities being copied on the grapple beam target.
--Your claiming that the grapple beam doesn't actually copy abilities and you were just paraphrasing is an obvious revision after having your botched false claim pointed out.
@Muffin-
You realize a vig kill is different from a lynch yes? Early game, town shouldn't lynch claimed cops (or claimed docs); especially not on D1. Allowing that provides scum with excuses for engaging in and encouraging bad game play.
Vigs should absolutely kill their top suspects, even more so if it's a target the town as a whole is unlikely to lynch.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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Kast tl;dr
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Ok, so RC didn't initially give me the actual PMs between himself and Shotty. I asked for those and just got them now. Some things based on those:
-Shotty tried to kill Muffin due to being suspicious about the investigation result on Chun Li.
-Shotty received a Night 2 Results PM which included flavor that stated Chun Li's room had an evil smell, though Chun Li herself had nothing evil or anything that indicated her of being evil.
--It also stated that there was an Asian girl sleeping outside Shotty's room.
--It also stated that someone had noticably visited Muffin's room prior to Shotty going there.
---Shotty made a loud metallic click sound on arriving at Muffin's room.
---Something made a sound after Shotty attempted to kill Muffin.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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@Robo Wagon Analysis-
Looking at the timing of the votes, Millar was obviously waiting for someone to place the (effective) L-1 vote. It is implausible that scum would simply L-1, Hammer, ZR. Regardless of whether the scum team planned the ZR to end the day early or whether Millar was taking action on his own, Millar and Fur's votes were too close and it is implausible that scum would place votes so close and essentially guarantee that they both come under fire and have increased suspicion as a result.
Neto's vote was also the one that clearly turned the wagon from a random wagon (BV & Shotty) to a serious wagon; prompting an additional vote. Regardless of what BV or Shotty thought about Robo, their initial votes both had weak/non-existent reasoning, and could not be expected to sway others.
Neto's vote was a bit different; Neto played the "frustrated townie" card and abandoned his own self-claimed standard logical/analytical play. This departure, combined with the timing of the vote (making it a feasible lynch given the ZR), reveal an opportunistic attack. The same does not apply to anyone else on the wagon.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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Potential slip. How does MoI know whether a mafia kill is a factional ability or a result of role abilities? This is not something that is always or generally true; particularly not for theme games. This is EVEN LESS likely if he truly believed that mafia have different kill methods with different kill flavors.MoI wrote:As Mafia kills are Faction abilities and not role abilities Furc should be able to confirm the exact details of Shotty’s Vig role.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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The problem with your hypothetical reveals your general weakness that you've exhibited throughout the game. Upon hearing the counterclaim, you need to evaluate your read of the suspect.if I was a vig and my top suspect claimed doc, and there was no counterclaim,
--If the claim mitigates your suspicion, then the player likely will drop below your top suspect. In this case, you should go after whoever your new top suspect is.
--If the claim is implausible, or there are just no other candidates anywhere near as scummy, then your suspect is likely to remain as the top suspect and should still be vigged.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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Because vig kills are guaranteed to be fully in control of town AND because allowing vigs to kill their ToC does not give scum leeway to excuse scummy behavior.
Your sarcastic objection is irrelevant to the point.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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Such a dismissal would be irrational. Ideal play will not always result in a town win. Claiming that ideal play would result in a net negative situation for town based on private information does not mean the ideal play is no longer ideal.
But you are running away from the basic point: you assert that it is inconsistent for a player to oppose a lynch of a claimed cop, while simultaneously advocating that a vig should night kill the same claimed cop, provided that the vig thinks the claimed cop is actually mafia false-claiming cop. The position is not inconsistent; it follows basic mafia theory.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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But for the record, yes, I would "forgive" a player for abandoning the right/logical/rational play, provided the player had shown he was incapable of understanding that play (for any of a number of reasons, e.g lack of ability, stubbornness/arrogance, emotional investment,...).ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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@Muffin-
Please put winning the game above your pride.
-There is no need to lie. You clearly and unambiguously posted your reason for voting me as a perceived discrepancy between my objection to lynching a claimed cop and my support for Shotty's attempt to vig his top suspect. This is what I responded to explicitly; this is what our entire side dialogue has referenced.
-Ideal play does not ensure nor require ideal results. I am assuming you don't have any experience with game theory (or for whatever reason you are choosing to ignore it), but an ideal strategy is based on what returns the best results in the long term, individual games notwithstanding. As an analogy, imagine a situation in which a player under threat of lynch claims cop and is not counter-claimed. The "ideal" strategy is to not lynch the player. This is the ideal/best/rational/logical/whatever-you-want-to-call-it move regardless of whether the player is *actually* town or mafia. There have obviously been games in which scum false claimed cop. Within those games, theidealplay is still the same, even if the results would be bad.
-I do not know why you fail to understand the correct play. I explicitly left it open ended and offered several possible explanations for your failure. You are free to clarify what you do not accept or understand. If you would like me to guess, then please say so clearly.
Again, you are avoiding the main point. If you want to continue discussing theory, I'm going to put any such future responses in spoiler tags as to not let that distract from the game relevant stuff.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Kdub/BV/Iec-
Note that MoI continues to avoid answering why he would have targeted Neto with the stolen rolecop ability. Read through and see if he posted anything at all indicating suspicion.
Note MoI failed to explain why he would RB a claimed cop instead of RBing someone he strongly suspected of being mafia.
Also, please review Neto's vote for Robo; someone who he obviously had history with and with whom he had played before. Also keep in mind that Neto admitted he understood exactly why Robo was paranoid about him and even provided the explanation for everyone.
Also, BV, consider MoI's claim to have successfully targetted Fur against your attempt to target Fur.
@Muffin-
-If you think I'm misunderstanding or misrepresenting your stated reason for voting, then please clarify/explain.
Spoiler: Muffin's Attempts to Distract
@Iec-
I may have missed posting this, but my guess would be that scum tried to kill Fur (a confirmed role-cop) and failed since he was hiding himself. This would fit with MoI roleblocking our actual cop and not worrying about the nigh confirmed role-cop.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@BV-
-I was referring to his initial claim that Grapple Beam copies all abilities targeting the user to the target. This is a discrepancy with the kill flavor of Shot and Destroyed; which implies different causes for death.
-Does MoI's ability confirm he is Rikku (check with mod)?
--Is it possible mod gave a Rikku fake claim with abilities that match both Rikku and some other character?
--Why do you think Rikku cannot be evil?
-What do you think about MoI failing to provide reasons for his claimed targets?ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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MagnaofIllusion wrote:
No, it’s an attempt to lynch scum. And let’s actually reference the rules you were so careful not to quote.Kast wrote:Given that rules state this is a Limited/Delayed reveal game and we have already seen that the delayed reveal shows true affiliation, your argument holds no merit. The attempt to lynch me is an obvious attempt to get rid of the vig before we see Neto's flip.
Bolded to show your lack of reading ability.TheMod wrote:This game is limited/delayed reveal.Character name will be revealed, but you are left to speculate at their alignment, and the true powers they might have possessedBolded to show your lack of reading ability.
You chose to investigate a player because you thought he was pro-town, DESPITE ADAMANTLY REPEATING in game that proving role abilities does not prove affiliation. Please link to a game in which you as town decided to try to investigate and find potential town instead of investigating to find scum.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Because I wanted to see what his abilities were and assess whether they were likely to indicate a Town role. Because as a logical player he would be a strong Town asset.. Precisely the reason you killed him.Kast wrote:Explain why you targeted Neto.
-Why wouldn't you stop a kill?MagnaofIllusion wrote:
I chose to steal Muffin’s ability for two reasons.Kast wrote:Explain why you chose to steal/block a cop instead of block/confirming someone you claim to strongly believe was scum.
1. To confirm his claim. The chances of an alignment cop being scum in a mini are practically zero.
2. To prevent Scum (aka you and your partner) from killing / roleblocking him and having Town lose a scan.
--Why wouldn't you try to confirm suspected vig/scum and if vig control a kill you obviously didn't trust in Shotty's hands?
--Why wouldn't you use the investigation on suspected vig/scum to guarantee lynch (instead of targetting a lurker who wouldn't be in the running for a mislynch anyway)?
You aren't addressing any of my content. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Typical weak scum play – demonize the dead who can’t fight back.Kast wrote:Neto and Fur have clear differences in playstyle. Neto's votes are inconsistent with his claims to be a logical player and actual play which showed more rational capabilities outside of his single-minded and opportunistic ones.
Neto’s play is so superior to Furc’s in every way this game it’s not funny. Continue to attack Neto and champion our own VI as much as you like. It only shows how weak your opinions are.
I've provided my reasoning in the following post. How about addressing that and/or providing your own.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
The lulz. You have no clue what vote analysis is. Vote analysis consists of reviewing a string of votes and counts and looking for patterns. What you are doing consists of “Derp he’s scum because I say so.”Kast wrote:It's straight forward vote analysis. Just because you can't understand it doesn't make that a valid dismissal. You can tell us you don't understand how 1 + 1 = 2, but that doesn't make it any less true.
To those reading – note that complete weakness of his position that he resorts to attacking my intelligence instead of making a logical, well reasoned post. Just like he was taking Ythan to task for.
To be clear, you are claiming that kill flavor is no different from any other flavor. Please be clear.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
DERP. Flavor is flavor. Any attempt to champion certain flavor as important but other flavour as meaningless is just plain sad.Kast wrote:Claiming mod flavor indicates number of remaining scum is ridiculous. Kill flavor is a GAME MECHANIC, not meaningless flavor. You are reaching.
@Mod-Please clarify whether kill flavor is meaningless fluff or whether it actually indicates different game mechanics.
Clarify. Nowhere in Page 1 does it say that destroyed is "generic kill flavor". It explicitly states that individuals who are lynched will be "Destroyed" and nothing more than that.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Destroyed is clearly the generic death flavor as shown in the MOD’S PAGE 1 POSTS. Learn to read. I love the unsupportable ‘Black Helicopter’ conspiracy theory you throw in. Lulz he’s Mafiaz becauze he can thinkz for hizself.Kast wrote:Your claim that "destroyed" is "generic kill flavor" likely betrays inside knowledge on scum kill method. Nothing indicates this anywhere else or in any way. It also goes against your initial claim of abilities being copied on the grapple beam target.
Your reference to conspiracy theories betrays a failure to understand the nature of a mafia game. There *IS* a conspiracy, the mafia are conspiring to kill the town. Any time anyone scumhunts and looks for possible tells, they are looking for evidence of that conspiracy. Your ridiculing is an invalid dismissal or defense.
MagnaofIllusion wrote:
More unsupported garbage. If you can provide a quote where I say this do so. Otherwise you are just lying continually hoping that if you say it enough it will stick. You know … the Appeal to Repeition fallacy scum love to use.Kast wrote:Your claiming that the grapple beam doesn't actually copy abilities and you were just paraphrasing is an obvious revision after having your botched false claim pointed out.Spoiler: Done
MoI wrote:Do you believe there was a 4-man original scum team in a no-reveal game? Do you believe there is a Serial Killer?
In case your reading comprehension is too poor to understand that, I think there is one remaining scum and MoI is it.Kast wrote:I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.
Read the post.MoI wrote:Please show how your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) on Robo were anything but opportunistic. Because selectively attempting to smear Neto in the manner you are doing while ignoring Furc and Shotty’s reasoning is scumtastic.
Be more clear. I pointed out that MoI-scum is probably lying about using Fur's stolen role cop ability on his buddy Neto-scum. MoI's claim about Neto-scum's ability has a huge, objective flaw. The ability itself is likely to be a scum potential protection/potential misinformation ability. Neto likely didn't even use the ability on Day 1, much less use it to target Spyrex. What he probably did is target Spyrex with a "generic" mafia kill.MoI wrote:And please explain why a modified Hider mechanic sounds like a scum ability in light of the fact that you butchered the mechanics as shown above.
To be clear, I did not explicitly state what time period in which there was no deaths. But to be clear, you are correct that there was a death on N2.MoI wrote:1. Why did you incorrectly state that there was not a Death N2 when Ythan died?
? Please clarify. I doubt you would invent an ability for your scumbuddy completely out of the blue. You likely based your Grapple Beam claim on an ability that Neto actually had (and *modified* it to account for two investigations).MoI wrote:2. Why did you blatantly attempt to make the argument that Neto could have scanned Innocent by using his ability on a Town player?
Agreed, there is a WIFOM counter to this point. It's about as strong as stating scum wouldn't unprompted false claim cop on D1 with no ability to back it up. It's an objectively and severely bad thing for scum to do. There is a very rare chance that it might happen, but that is extremely unlikely.MoI wrote:
It’s a grade A WIFOM sandwich. Reaper I’m sure appreciates this. LOL, Furc and millar can’t be scum together because no scum would ever do that.Kast wrote:Looking at the timing of the votes, Millar was obviously waiting for someone to place the (effective) L-1 vote. It is implausible that scum would simply L-1, Hammer, ZR. Regardless of whether the scum team planned the ZR to end the day early or whether Millar was taking action on his own, Millar and Fur's votes were too close and it is implausible that scum would place votes so close and essentially guarantee that they both come under fire and have increased suspicion as a result.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I wasn't explicitly clear. It should be apparent, but I'd rather get this straightened out prior to wasting time going through games and pulling statistics just to have you dismiss them with semantics arguments. How do you know that the mafia kill will not appear as a player ability if investigated by a role cop? This is the crux of this objection; MoI's claim that a role cop investigation would not reveal kill abilities if targetting a mafia player.MoI wrote:
LOL. Mafia’s kill ability isn’t Factional because it happened in a few other games. Thus please ignore the sound logic backed by 99% of games.Kast wrote:Potential slip. How does MoI know whether a mafia kill is a factional ability or a result of role abilities? This is not something that is always or generally true; particularly not for theme games. This is EVEN LESS likely if he truly believed that mafia have different kill methods with different kill flavors.
Assuming this is actually your objection, then a couple points:
-Games in which a goon's ability to kill appears in the role PM and would appear to a role-cop investigation are just as common as games where they would not appear.
-In our specific case, one in which MoI believes mafia does have specialized kill flavors (and specifically that at least one mafiate kills with the flavor "Shot"), there are exactly zero instances in the entire Coney Island thread in which scum have kills with a specialized kill flavor that would not appear to a role cop investigation.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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To clarify, since MoI clearly enjoys taking things out of context:
The bold section refers specifically to the quoted issue. MoI addresses none of the content of that issue. There are some other issues which he does address and some which he does not.You aren't addressing any of my content. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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@Iec-
1. Based on what info we have available to us, the section MoI bolded refers to the immediate limitation of the reveal. The delayed portion very clearly refers to what happened with Kerrigan. We likely will never get the full reveal of actual role abilities until end game, but for all intents and purposes, we are likely to get the delayed reveal of affiliation. The only question there comes what triggers the reveal (e.g. game periods, time, random mechanic, player mechanic,...).
2. MoI has roleblocked two cops. This is undeniable fact.
-The first cop was a role-cop and he claims he used the role cop to investigate Neto in order to confirm a townie. Why attempt to investigate a townie instead of attempt to find scum?
-The second cop was an affiliation-cop; yes the investigation of Muffin would most likely confirm Muffin town (ignoring possibilities of SKs), however he claims to have used the stolen investigation on a lurker instead of using it on either of the two players he claims to suspect as scum. This makes no sense.
3. You did not vote for Robo. BV and Shotty placed early votes. Neto placed a vote that did not make sense given what he was saying, and which was the key vote outside of Millar's hammer.
4. I thought Muffin was scum for the majority of my re-read. I no longer think Muffin is scum. I have continued to point out instances of weak play from Muffin in response to his usage of crap-logic and generally bad play to challenge my earlier statements. Some of this is in defense of myself, and some of it is simply to set the record straight.
The primary argument currently between us (that I see) is that Muffin voted me for what he sees as a discrepancy, and I disagree with his assessment. He explicitly stated the reason as a discrepancy between my opposition to players voting a claimed cop (Muffin), and my support for Shotty's attempted vig kill on the same claimed cop. I maintain that not only is it consistent, but it is also a reflection of best or ideal play for a vig to kill his top suspect, regardless of whether that suspect is a claimed PR. That has devolved into discussion of whether it is appropriate play for a vig to kill a claimed PR; and from there to whether such a thing as ideal play even exists.
None of the current discussion involves characterizing Muffin's play as scum machinations. It does involve characterizing Muffin's play as irrational.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@KDub-
-The main point/assumption is not that Neto is scum, it's that MoI's claim about Grapple Beam is incompatible with mod provided information. Neto is probably scum is one of the likely results of my analysis, but it is not a necessary assumption.
Other points include his poorly thought out claimed target choices and reasons (again independent of Neto's affiliation); his (relatively) unbalanced claimed ability (again independent of Neto); and the inconsistency between his stated distrust of
-I don't think Robo is scum; there would be no bussing value for scum to lynch with ZR. I also don't think Muffin can be scum. He could be an insane cop (or some flavor of sanity-challenged). Another possibility is scum could also have messed with the investigation (potentially done by Neto/Samus).
@Fur-
-Muffin's claimed N2 action was investigating MoI, though he says he survived Shotty's kill attempt due to hiding in a bulletproof closet. That does raise a point which seems to have been lost/dropped.
Side note: Hiding in a bulletproof closet could fit but is unnecessary with Shotty's flavor. Shotty was told there was a lump on the bed under the covers, he shot it, but before he could check if Muffin was dead, he heard a noise so left.
@Muffin-
-Someone asked this previously, but do you actually have a passive ability and/or any explanation/idea for how/why you survived the kill attempt?
@Iec-
-If you've already made up your mind then might as well vote. We're probably in an okay position for a few mislynches (hopefully you guys get it right and lynch MoI after you see Neto's flip).
@All-
-Assuming you lynch me, see Neto flip scum, lynch MoI, and the game still doesn't end; look into possible third party roles. Muffin would be a good start; a passive bullet-proof ability would be a likely part of a survivor or other ability; and if MoI-scum actually targeted Muffin, they could be tacitly working together since MoI is likely pretty desperate. This is only a contingency suggestion.
Preview edit: Will read and respond to MoI's post.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Kast tl;dr
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Ask about it.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
I’ve previously asked for clarification. To post without directly quoting – any ability that affects the Grapple beam user will also affect the Grapple beam target. I specifically asked whether a Nightkill targeted at Neto would also affect Spyrex. SaintK confirmed it would put made no mention of flavor results.Kdub wrote:Without quoting the mod's PM directly, can you be as specific as you can about how grapple beam works? Does it explicitly say it copies abilities, or just the effects of abilities? That's an important distinction. Can you ask the mod for clarification if possible?
I've addressed that the delayed reveal could be due to any of a number of effects. The bottom line is that this game is not JUST a limited reveal game, but ALSO a delayed reveal game. Your attempts to pretend it is only limited reveal are blatant denials of something the mod has proven with evidence.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Sigh … your simplistic take on the issue deserves attention. You are claiming that the information provided regarding millar is a MOD mechanic and not a player driven result. That’s fine. Please explain the following then.Kast wrote:Bolded to show your lack of reading ability.
Why is millar the only Day / Night 1 flip? I’d really love to see how you justify 1 scum player killed / lynched Day / Night 1 flipping but not another.
You've contradicted yourself by claiming/implying that proven abilities would prove alignment.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Proven abilities does not equal proven alignment. I’ve repeatedly said this. That said I’m intelligent enough to make my own judgement’s based on reliable information (ie information my Steal ability shows that is provided by Mod).Kast wrote:You chose to investigate a player because you thought he was pro-town, DESPITE ADAMANTLY REPEATING in game that proving role abilities does not prove affiliation. Please link to a game in which you as town decided to try to investigate and find potential town instead of investigating to find scum.
I haven't said anything of the sort. Please stop lying.MagnaofIllusion wrote:why do you consider Furc’s Ability Cop power to be more an indication of Town status than Muffin’s Alignment Cop power.
Don't avoid the questions. Explain how it is better to confirm someone you suspect is a townie than to stop your suspected mafia kill while confirming that player as scum.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Lol read what I wrote. The explanation is right there.Kast wrote:-Why wouldn't you stop a kill?
--Why wouldn't you try to confirm suspected vig/scum and if vig control a kill you obviously didn't trust in Shotty's hands?
--Why wouldn't you use the investigation on suspected vig/scum to guarantee lynch (instead of targetting a lurker who wouldn't be in the running for a mislynch anyway)?
If that is honestly how you feel, then we have a serious disagreement in basic theory. I strongly disagree with your assertion that a cop should ignore his top two suspects in favor of checking/clearing a lurker. If you are just pretending to believe that, then I really dislike your scum tactics; attempting to lowering the quality of game play in order to benefit your team is just lame.MagnaofIllusion wrote:But your last statement is interesting. Smart Alignment Cop play isn't to scan a suspect you find already suspicious. Smart Alignment cop play is to scan a player who is difficult to read. So attempting to paint my decision to scan bv310 as not wise is again scumtastic.
Smart alignment cop play is to catch scum. Cops should investigate who they think is most likely to be scum.
As a caveat, if the cop is absolutely convinced that the player is:
1) scum
2) going to be lynched anyway
Then it would make sense to investigate the next most likely scum. This is NOT what you did; you investigated someone you did not suspect and ignored both of your top two reads.
You haveMagnaofIllusion wrote:
I’ve clearly addressed the issue but you keep blantatly pretending I haven’t because your arguments don’t hold water. Neto’s play was much more Pro-Town than Furc’s. End of story. Throw around accusastions that Neto’s wasn’t being logical all you want. Everyone else can judge for themselves.Kast wrote:You aren't addressing any of my content. We agree that Neto demonstrates stronger and more rational play in general than Fur. That does nothing to counter my point. The fact that Neto is dead likewise does nothing. Less straw men and more addressing my actual post please.assertedthat you are correct, but never once attempted to explain or address my explanation.
Please point out what you dislike about my argument and what you are attempting to dismiss as Wikitells. Also, you are smart enough to realise that showing a possible scum motivation for something is not proof that the player is scum.MagnaofIllusion wrote:I again laugh at your attempt to discredit using Wikitells. Funny. Pointing out the pure scum motivation in attacking a dead player shows why you are scum.
Are you paying any attention? Agreed, I am the one arguing that kill flavor is a game mechanic. You are the one claiming that kill flavor is meaningless.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Incorrect. You are the one arguing that kill flavor is a game mechanic while other flavour is meaningless.Kast wrote:To be clear, you are claiming that kill flavor is no different from any other flavor. Please be clear.
@Mod- Please clarify whether kill flavor is meaningless fluff or whether it actually indicates different game mechanics.
At the same time, you are claiming that lynch scene flavor is actually indicative of the number of remaining scum. This is a ridiculous and unfounded claim.
It's called full claiming. I'm not blind; I can see most players are either decided or leaning in favor of lynching me regardless of how scummy you are. Shotty's lurking was very unfortunate. Neto did a good job provoking Robo and getting town to sympathize with him. You've played a fairly solid game until your botched claims. I also don't think it's necessary to humor Muffin's ego.MagnaofIllusion wrote:If that’s the case why did you bother to post all the flavor you received from RC regarding hearing noises?
I'll give town all the info I have; in case it helps convince them to avoid mislynching; in case it helps after I've been mislynched.
In other words, you reread the post and realized that "oh shit, it doesn't say all deaths are generically 'destroyed'". The lynch is "destroyed", but a generic mafia kill flavor is known only to mafia.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
If you can’t understand the eminently logical leap that Destroyed is generic flavour I can’t help you. Your inability to not understand that 1+1=2 doesn’t make it wrong.Kast wrote:Clarify. Nowhere in Page 1 does it say that destroyed is "generic kill flavor". It explicitly states that individuals who are lynched will be "Destroyed" and nothing more than that.
You are letting your pride get in the way of playing the game properly. You did not read carefully and did not see that I already addressed your point. I'm sure you are upset (regardless of alignment) when I repeatedly ask you to answer a difficult question. It's understandable that you want to respond in kind. However, that's no excuse to start lying and making things up. If you're wrong about something admit it. Making mistakes is not inherently scummy. And besides, we've already caught you for your objectively scummy botched claim.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
My reading comprehension is fine. I just wanted to to clearly commit that you think there is 1 scum of any flavor left.Kast wrote:In case your reading comprehension is too poor to understand that, I think there is one remaining scum and MoI is it.
To be clear then, you admit I did already answer the question. You disagree with my answer.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
I did. Your argument that Neto’s vote, based on his back and forth with Robo, is more opportunistic than Shotty / your vote “cause innocents have nothing to fear” and Furc’s “Robo annoys me” is just ludicrous and scummy.Kast wrote:Read the post.
Reading comprehension failure. The mod never stated that "Destroyed" is generic kill flavor. The mod stated that it is the lynch flavor. MoI stated that "destroyed" is generic kill flavor. I pointed this out as a possible slip that MoI has private information that "destroyed" is actually the "generic kill flavor" for this game. The only reason MoI would know this is if MoI is scum who knows the generic scum kill flavor.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Bolded for emphasis. Look closely what is being said. Kast is claiming a generic mafia kill flavor that is the same as the lynch flavor. But earlier he’s argued that each Mafian should have their own kill flavor. He also argued that the flavor written by the Mod is rich and that Mod would not make the mistake of duplicating flavor. Selective arguing of the facts? Scumtastic.Kast wrote:Be more clear. I pointed out that MoI-scum is probably lying about using Fur's stolen role cop ability on his buddy Neto-scum. MoI's claim about Neto-scum's ability has a huge, objective flaw. The ability itself is likely to be a scum potential protection/potential misinformation ability. Neto likely didn't even use the ability on Day 1, much less use it to target Spyrex.What he probably did is target Spyrex with a "generic" mafia kill.
I don't know what you would get because I don't know what abilities the mafia have. I do know that Fur claimed to be a full role cop, and that you confirmed he is a full role cop. Since the point under discussion is how mafia investigate under a full role-cop, then your limitation isn't even relevant. Nice try to straw man this discussion.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
It’s clear logical reference. I have two different abilities. My ability to steal and my secondary ability that BV310 has vouched for. Furc has claimed the ability to hide in addition to his Observe ability. Yet when I stole from him I didn’t get both. I only got the ability to Observe. Likewise I only saw one ability from both Neto and Spyrex (not that we have any confirmation that they had mutiple abilities). Do you think if I had stolen from a Mafia Roleblocker (which we almost certainly have) that I would get both abilities?Kast wrote:How do you know that the mafia kill will not appear as a player ability if investigated by a role cop? This is the crux of this objection; MoI's claim that a role cop investigation would not reveal kill abilities if targetting a mafia player.
Semantics. Role cop = ability cop. It's a cop which learns the game mechanic abilities of his target (but generally not the affiliation/name/title/etc). If you misunderstood what I was referring to or objected to use of that term, then do so from the beginning please; arguing a technicality after demonstrating you clearly understood what I was talking about is an invalid dismissal. If you feel better, pretend I stated ability cop every instance you see role cop.MagnaofIllusion wrote:And to correct you Furc isn’t a ROLE COP. He’s an ability cop. Huge difference there Tex, but one I see you seem to be ignoring in your desperate attempt to make me look like scum.
You block their role. You do prevent them from using their abilities. More arguing semantics to avoid the point.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
You keep saying that I’m role-blocking someone. That’s an outright lie. A role-blocker prevents an ability from being used. I didn’t prevent their use. I simply allowed myself to use the ability in place of them. So repeating over and over that I role-blocked someone is incorrect. Role-blocking is what you partner who seduces players does.Kast wrote:2. MoI has roleblocked two cops. This is undeniable fact.
-The first cop was a role-cop and he claims he used the role cop to investigate Neto in order to confirm a townie. Why attempt to investigate a townie instead of attempt to find scum?
-The second cop was an affiliation-cop; yes the investigation of Muffin would most likely confirm Muffin town (ignoring possibilities of SKs), however he claims to have used the stolen investigation on a lurker instead of using it on either of the two players he claims to suspect as scum. This makes no sense.
Again, strongly disagree. I find it incomprehensible that you claim cops should not investigate people they find scummy.MagnaofIllusion wrote:If you are objecting to my scanning of bv310 you don’t know how to play Cop then. You scan hard to read lurkers and lynch scum. Only bad players scan people they find scummy.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Iec-
Thank you. Very good point.
-Is that sufficient to sway your vote?
@BV/KDub-
-In light of Muffin's confirmation that someone shot at him, does that change your opinion of Shotty as scum? (which I'm sure MoI will whine that it isn't confirmed that Shotty was the one who tried killing Muffin; if anyone else shares his view please say so).ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Fur-
-That's the mechanics of what happened. Could you paraphrase the flavor? In particular, could you include any hints or anything else that might have been included?
For example, Muffin's flavor told him he couldn't act because he was walking around looking for the stolen IDD.
-To be clear, when you say you "hid" it's similar to a standard commuter ability. MoI's post seems to assume you used a redirection ability (ie. reverse bodyguard).ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Iec-
You're missing the part where I told him he was wrong and hurt his ego. Pride is often a greater master than reason.Iec wrote:Why on earth are you doing that given that Ythan died the same night someone shot you?ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Muffin-
You didn't actually address this point. The implication of claiming my player slot is an SK is that you are claiming an SK would plausibly claim to never kill again. If there was ever a night with multiple kills, or if a tracker or watcher saw the suspected SK taking a night action, then the SK is obviously hosed.Iec wrote:a) Shotty claimed he ran out of kills. You think the SK is going to sit on his hands until endgame? (The point is to remind you of this detail.)
@Iec-
I know Shotty targeted Neto on N1. If MoI was telling the truth about Grapple Beam, then Spyrex would have died by shot. Also, given the amount of unnecessary flavor that RC gave for a N2 failed kill, I don't think it is at all plausible that he wouldn't have given even a small hint that the N1 kill was copied/transferred/etc. MoI has also been very careful with his wording of abilities, so I don't buy for one second that he messed up paraphrasing the Grapple Beam.
MoI also is essentially confirming Muffin as an affiliation cop.Spoiler: That leaves a few possibilities
It does not leave the possibility of Muffin as mafia and MoI as non-mafia.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Really long post...much longer than I realized. Oh well.
@MoI-
Either you are doing a terrible job of reading, I am doing a terrible job of presenting, some combination of the two, or one of us is intentionally doing a poor job. I'm not interested in pointless back-and-forth; let's clarify the issue.MoI wrote:Your attempts to twist this argument into my saying that millar wasn’t revealed as scum are ludicrous. I’ve never said he wasn’t.Spoiler: Summary from as neutral a PoV as I can present it. If you think it's incorrect, then point out where I'm missing your point.
-I think your attempt to lynch me now is to force through a mislynch before I get confirmed as town. You claim your attempt is simply to lynch suspected scum. We disagree on this.
-You claim that my expectation for Neto to have a delayed flip betrays a failure to read the rules (and potentially an attempt to trick others) is invalid. The rules and mod evidence actually support my expectation.
Two thoughts to keep in mind:MoI wrote:1. You assertion that my targets are poorly thought out is simply your opinion. Your ‘choices’ of supposed Vig targets are poorly thought out. So you must be scum. See how that works.
2. My claim isn’t unbalanced at all. I’m a two shot Ability Borrower / User. All the ‘rest’ of your evidence of unbalance rests on you throwing other abilities into the fray. Suddenly I'm a Jailkeeper - Roleblocker - Thief all in one.
3. Not sure what the inconsitency is when you don’t even discuss who my distrust is of.
-These are a summary of my previous statements. If you did not understand any of them, there is plenty of reasoning, explanation, and clarification behind them that you can go back to read.
-I don't always proof-read, so it is possible I did not express myself as clearly as I should have. I will attempt to clarify anything that was unclear. I will try to keep the clarification brief.
1. Your targetscombined withyour reasons for those targets are inconsistent with your other stated beliefs. Inconsistencies between claimed night choices and in-thread beliefs are a fairly reliable scum-tell indicating a botched false claim. Example: You propose that Fur investigate Shotty to catch a probable liar. However, you yourself do not investigate your suspect Shotty, and instead investigate a player you are not suspicious of.
2.Spoiler: Your claimed ability has 3 parts:
3. I'm not sure what I was referring to there.
I probably was not specific enough.Kast wrote:Ask about it
Please ask SaintK or RC about the flavor results.MoI wrote:SaintK confirmed it would put made no mention of flavor results.
You are arguing technicalities that are irrelevant to the base point. If you want to blame me for not being specific enough, then ok, I'll admit I could have been a lot more specific with my language. Base point is this:I’ve bolded the LIKELY for you. So please STOP LYING about what I am saying. I’ve NEVER said Neto’s power would prove he was town.
-It is contradictory to claim that proven abilities has absolutely no bearing on determining a player's alignment (your claim wrt Fur), but to also claim that proven abilities can have a bearing on determining a player's alignment (your claim wrt Neto).
My questions take your PoV into account. Short version, from your PoV, using your ability on Shotty would have confirmed your suspected scum & potentially stolen the mafia killMoI wrote:
Don’t you read? I’ve stated I believe the generic Mafia kill is Factional and would not be stolen by my ability. You can argue MOD mechanics all you want but you CAN’T know whether I’m correct or not. Like so many of your other arguments it’s pure supposition on your part.Kast wrote:Don't avoid the questions. Explain how it is better to confirm someone you suspect is a townie than to stop your suspected mafia kill while confirming that player as scum.(which you could then use to kill Shotty)OR prove your top suspect was town and save you from pushing a mislynch.Spoiler: Long Version
This is a false statement. Just because people have different opinions about something, does not mean they are all equally valid, nor does it mean that relative valences are indeterminate. I see any indication that you are willing to openly discuss validity of our opinions (at least not until post-game), so we can save that discussion for then.MoI wrote:Here’s a hint – your opinion is no more valid than anyone else’s.
Spoiler: Some Hypotheticals:
-You ignored Shotty (your top scum read) and Fur (your second scum read). Instead you investigated players you expressed no suspicion of {Muffin, Neto, BV}.MoI wrote:Prove I ignored my top reads.
--Are you disputing that Shotty and Fur were your top two scum reads?
--Are you claiming that any of {Muffin, Neto, BV} were part of your top suspects?
I have explained and provided evidence for my assertions. You have not done the same with yours. You have avoided discussion of my explanations.You’ve only asseted that you are correct. Your point with this?
You are correct that you never explicitly used those words to state that message. However, arguing a technicality like that is an invalid defense. You have repeatedly tried to claim that kill flavor is not actually a game mechanic tied with the actual kill. You have inconsistently, been forced to admit that kill flavor is tied to the source of the kill.MoI wrote:I’ve never said kill flavour is meaningless.
My night ability lets me target a player with the effect that the player is killed by being shot. Your botched claim about Grapple Beam inherently dismisses the kill flavor as not being a game relevant mechanic, specifically an effect of my ability. Your claim about Grapple Beam is equally invalid as if you claimed that a Name Investigation targeting Neto could copy the Investigation effect but switch the investigation to a generic Affiliation Investigation.
You are correct that it was not a lynch scene. Please explain how that is relevant.You are arguing that flavor text only viewable by you in a PM is meaningful to the Night’s events while flavor text posted in thread by the Mod is meaningless. Also note that it wasn’t lynch scene flavor but flavor during millar’s scum reveal. Yet another inaccuracy on your part.
(A) The mod tells a player that someone was outside their door in the night.
(B) The mod tells a player that someone tried to kill them in the night.
(C) The mod publicly uses third person plural when referring to the mafia.
To be clear, you do not understand why a player would believe that (A) and (B) are game relevant information but (C) is meaningless flavor. For me, it is so intuitively obvious that I do not believe I have the capability to explain this distinction to you. It is hard for me to believe that you cannot understand this difference, to the point where I doubt you are being honest. @BV/KDub/Iec/Muffin/Fur- do any of you have trouble understanding this difference? If I am alone or in a minority here, I can make an attempt.
And I didn't say you said that. I quoted and linked to where you said "Destroyed" is the generic kill flavor for the game. I did say you probably slipped knowledge that "Destroyed" is the generic scum kill flavor.MoI wrote:I’ve never said ‘Destroyed’ is a generic scum flavor.
False.MoI wrote:I’ve said REPEATEDLY that Destroyed is the generic death flavorthat comes when someone dies when not directly targeted by a kill.Spoiler: You have repeatedly stated that 'Destroyed' is the generic kill flavor.
Neto was not killed by mafia. Neto was killed by town Vig. Spyrex was the obvious mafia kill andMoI wrote:You are assuming there is generic kill flavour for the Mafia. Please indicate how this makes any logic sense in that we have kills flavors of Shot (Neto) and Scratched and Torn (Ythan).diddie by the presumed generic kill flavor. Ythan was obviously not killed by the generic mafia kill, but rather a specialized mafia kill (offhand, I'd guess scratched and torn to pieces reflects a specialized janitor ability). With the exception of my janitor speculation, all of this has already been stated.
Actually, I've never played with or encountered a Hider role before. Thank you for expanding my repertoire.No my post clearly assumes his second ability is a Hider. I know you must be aware of that role.
@MoI, post 1305-
1.1. I have outstanding questions to BV regarding his assessment of you as Rikku. I'm sorry if you don't think that is addressing this point; I can't do much more. I also believe that RC is entirely capable of crafting a mafia role out of a standard protagonist OR providing a safe claim that makes sense and is compatible with the actual scum role (you can replace role with abilities).
1.2. My assertion regarding your claimed Grapple Beam and the mod provided Kill Flavor of Spyrex death has nothing to do with outguessing the mod. If you claimed Grapple Beam changes a targets name to "AppleBee" but claimed target's name did not change to "AppleBee", then it is not outguessing the mod to assume the mod's failure to conform to the claimed ability is indication that the person claiming the ability is a liar.
1.3. Mislynching the inactive town vigilante before he can be confirmed is one reason for you to come forth, especially if you have no idea who he will target (and did not know he was out of kills) and he already killed your buddy who nobody else suspected. Getting momentum against the rolecop who is publicly suspicious of you is another good reason for your gambit. The simple fact that the majority of town already blindly trusts you so you can already get away with almost anything is another possible motivation.
I don't know why you ask for these since I'm sure you will simply dismiss them as "suppositions". Guessing the motivation of scum is always, inherently *GUESSING*.
2. and 3. are not damning in and of themselves. What you addressed is also only half of each issue. The inconsistency between the reasons for those targets and your in-thread beliefs makes all of the targeting more suspicious.
-Did you mean to include more? Sounds possible, but ambiguous. Please add the other things I'm not addressing if you had others in mind.MoI wrote:Furthermore let’s quickly glance at what he isn’t addressing –
Voting records. Not a single mention is made of my vote for millar made early in Day 1 that I kept on him the entire day.
-Your vote for millar is probably a bus. Millar is a weak player, he's perfect as a sacrificial mafian.
@MoI's attacks on Shotty-
Are you expecting me to defend Shotty's play and/or comment on your thoughts? For now I'm ignoring that section and assuming it's simply meant to convince others and attack me for things I can't defend. (Is it scumtastic when MoI attacks someone who is not here, or does that only apply when Kast does it?)
@KDub/Iec-
-I've claimed all the information (including flavor) that I've received.
@Fur-
MoI is clearly stating that when he gets lynched, town will not see anything other than a name. We would not have immediate information from his flip with which to gauge Muffin's affiliation.
@MoI-
Please explain this.MoI wrote:I also have some idea why someone was sleeping in Shotty’s doorway Night 2.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Iec-
If MoI is telling the truth about Grapple Beam, then Neto pretty much cannot be scum.
I don't think MoI is telling the truth about Grapple Beam; it would mean he was both careless and taking extreme liberties with his description. Neither of those fit the rest of his playstyle.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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If MoI is telling the truth, then this is a careless paraphrase:
His current claim is essentially:Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target.Any non-kill abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target. If Neto dies, the target will also die with "destroyed" as the death flavor.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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I've asked RC a few times now to try and figure out if there is any possible way my kills could result in someone dying with the flavor "destroyed". He won't answer any questions that could potentially confirm or deny hypothetical roles, but he has make it clear that anyone who dies from a bullet would have the death flavor "Shot".
From a flavor standpoint, the Grapple Beam in Metroid games doesn't really have a similar effect to what MoI is claiming. The closest thing would be the SSB Grapple Beam used as a grab. And while players can die while grabbed, but that's only a result of being hit by an attack or item, not from some inherent tie with Samus.
I can understand reluctance to lynch MoI given flavor info that implies a successful protection; but I don't see any way plausible way that MoI's claim about Neto can be true.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Do you think an SK would claim this unprompted?Muffin wrote:I recognize that the "shot" death flavor would be revealing if it appeared later, after shotty had claimed he was out of kills.
@Iec-
Shotty did not receive any such flavor for N3. I'll ask RC if he forgot to send any PMs though.
That is a misleading statement. A simple fact is that I don't KNOW how my kill would carry over to any of an infinite number of potential hypothetical roles.Muffin wrote:The simple fact is that you don't KNOW that the "shot" flavour would carry over to the grapple target. You're just assuming.
I KNOW that my kill flavor would carry over to any flat-out redirection abilities. I also KNOW it would carry over to any flat-out copying abilities. I KNOW that it would carry over to the Grapple Beam IF the Grapple Beam ability works the way MoI initially described it. Obviously he can later claim he messed up his paraphrase, but it loses major credibility at that point.
@Muffin-
I have no idea why Shotty was informed of the Smell of Evil in Robo's room. There is nothing in the role PM that even remotely refers to any such ability or provides any reason for it.
Speculation: It is possible RC just got carried away in writing PM flavor and/or thought it could tie well with Shotty telling RC that he suspected Muffin was lying scum.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Iec-
-It was included at the beginning of another PM as a flashback memory of Chun Li's room.
-I don't know what game relevance (if any) it has. The flavor emphasizes several times that Chun Li herself did not appear to be evil and nothing in Chun Li's room appeared Evil either. There was just an evil smell.
If I had to guess between Chun Li being a Miller or Chun Li being framed, I'd say the flavor sounds more like Chun Li was framed.
HOWEVER, a framer role so unlikely to ever go off that it's negligible. It also just doesn't seem balanced to have limited reveals & scum misinformation roles.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Btw, THIS guess is pure speculation that I do not yet see a reasonable explanation for.f I had to guess between Chun Li being a Miller or Chun Li being framed, I'd say the flavor sounds more like Chun Li was framed.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Flashback to the lynch scene. It actually says that EVERYONE went to Chun Li's room after the lynch to see if we could see why Muffin thought Chun Li was Evil. I'm assuming the whole thing visit is flavor (and not a result of any player abilities), however, it raises a possible experiment to try. Everyone should mention trusting or not trusting Muffin's investigation regarding Robo in their PMs tonight.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@BV-Spoiler: Shotty/Kast is not mafiaSpoiler: MoI may be lying about Grapple BeamSpoiler: Robo/Chun Li had an Evil Smell from her roomSpoiler: I would like you to answer these questions:
@Muffin-
Iec is correct; those quotes both refer to the same PM.
@MoI-
I realize you haven't checked in since I asked, but just to keep it current:
-Please explain what you meant by this:MoI wrote:I also have some idea why someone was sleeping in Shotty’s doorway Night 2.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@BV-
-If you're soft claiming private communication with MoI, please don't soft claim and be direct. There's absolutely no need to keep that claim secret.
-If you're soft claiming a masonizer ability, also please be direct.
3 of the 4 players you named have claimed fairly extensively.
Fur- Tanya Adams - 2 Shot Role-Cop + Commuter (+ possibly more...) - N1 RBed by MoI; N2 RBed by Sexy Teen Wet Dream; N3 Commuted
Muffin- Lara Croft - Affiliation Cop (+ possibly more...) - N1 Guilty on Robo; N2 RBed by MoI; N3 RBed by Sexy Teen Wet Dream
Iec- ??? - JoAT (Watcher/Tracker/Doc/...) - N1 Tracked Ythan; N2 Watched MoI; N3 Doctored MoI
Speculation: The "Sexy Teen Wet Dream"-RBer does suggest a second scum, though it could also possibly be a townie with really bad night choices. There are some immediate video game babes who fit the bill that come to mind.
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@BV-
-According to MoI's claims, no your role is not confirmed to him. He only investigated your Affiliation as Good.
@MoI-
-Assuming your "second" ability is neighborizing, why neighborize with an unknown town lurker (BV) instead of neighborizing with a confirmed cop (Muffin)?ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Iec-
Given a choice between neighborizing a Confirmed-Good with unknown abilities or a Confirmed-Cop, the former doesn't make much sense. It's fairly standard to neighborize investigative roles whenever there is a claimed/confirmed one present. Redundancy in learning investigation results is huge.
@Fur/Muffin-
Credit for millar's lynch would go first to Robo's increased lynch threshold power.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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Unless you expect two coordinated night kills, then targeting either player will achieve that objective.If you are using the Neighborize as a means to pass along information to a player likely to survive the Night you choose player 2.
If you care about passing along an outed & confirmed cop's investigation results to the town, then you choose player 1.
If you care about coordinating investigation results so the cop you roleblocked doesn't waste his investigation on someone who was already investigated and/or you can help him choose a good target, you also choose player 1.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Kdub-
It sounds like he's still referring to the stolen affiliation investigation as confirming his affiliation; it does not sound like BV is referring to MoI's neighborizer power as confirming affiliation.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@BV-
Please clarify this.We disagreed on whether Muffin was lying about his role.
-You think Muffin was lying?
--If so, why do you think that?
--If not, why did MoI think Muffin was lying, despite confirming the ability himself and trusting the results of the ability?ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@MoI-
tl;dr
I started, but after the first line shows you have zero intention of discussing and only intend to repeat yourself, it's not worth my time. Enjoy your vacation. If you have anything new that needs a response, please post it in a legible form.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Iec-
-Regarding your disbelief of Neto as scum; that is not required for MoI to be scum. MoI-scum could have completely invented the whole Grapple Beam ability (it's hardly what Samus is known for; certainly less than her standard Power Beam or her Bombs).
-My best guess about Muffin surviving N2 is that MoI is lying about his ability and that the role-block/power stealing is also a jailkeeper effect. Some evidence to support this theory is BV's attempt to target Fur getting blocked/nulled/whatever as a result of MoI's action.
Interestingly enough, BV admits it is a result of MoI's interference. I'm not sold yet on BV/MoI scum team; I think it's quite likely that BV has never before had the misfortune of a scum neighborizer picking him as a conversation buddy.
@MoI-
It does look like we are at an impasse; has looked like that for some time now.
Lynch MoI:
Kast: Strongly believes you are scum.
Fur: Strongly believes you are scum.
Iec: Weighed the evidence, eventually concluded you are prolly scum.
Do Not Lynch MoI:
MoI: Obviously opposed.
BV: Thinks MoI is confirmed town.
Muffin: ...believes BV?...dunno why he's opposed actually; I think Muffin just really wanted to lynch me and tunneled, but the evidence forced him to admit to himself that I'm prob-town.
Undecided:
Kdub- Indecisive. Please make a choice, there's lots of info available already. Your questions to BV have already been answered.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@MoI-
I doubt you'll be lynched over the weekend. I'm certainly not advocating that Kdub vote/hammer you without giving you a last chance to claim anything you left out.
@Iec-
Agree that what was claimed sounds based off the SSB version of Samus. My personal thoughts are that the Grapple Beam MoI claimed is a modified version of an actual ability his scum-buddy has. He quite possibly had a second (or even third) ability beyond that.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Whatif...Neto was town?-
I have given thought to this, though don't think I've shared most of these thoughts:
-It would mean MoI still has a buddy (probably the other guy doing the role blocking).
--Counter point is that it is unlikely for mafia to have two RBs.
--Slightly mitigated if this game is no-VT
-Most likely buddies would be Kdub or BV.
--Kdub is doing his lurking/indecisive thing which could mean he's busy or could mean he's scum. Intentional lurking is a tool he uses as scum (that he would not use as town). It's hard to say whether he is doing it intentionally or not. He's also the most likely person behind the unclaimed RBs (everyone else has claimed not being the RBer), though if he claims he did not do them, then we know they are scum controlled (or really bad town).
--BV is going really far to defend MoI on very little evidence. QT titled with a character name is not automatically confirmation that the player inside is the named character (a scum neighborizer whose neighbor QT title revealed that he was Evil would be a pretty pointless power). We also do not know whether all scum have antagonist (Evil) characters; it is possible Rikku could be scum.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Fur-
Kdub's just being complete in his thoughts. If you play with him a few games, you'll see he sometimes needs to be called out in order to take a stand. It's a null-tell.
-Point is he supports lynching MoI if there is support, and there clearly is (you, me, Iec, Kdub).
@Kdub/Iec-
As posted before, MoI should be given a chance to post any final thought and/or full claim anything he has left out. Please no hammer until he gets back.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@Fur-
Probably, but it doesn't hurt to let him say something; and he might slip info that helps determine his scumbuddy (if he has one).
Actually, Kdub's denial of being the RBer makes it clear that whoever is RBing people with the wet dream thing is scum. This supports the argument that MoI is not the last remaining scum.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@SSBF-
Welcome. Thanks for catching up, and replacing in.
-You haven't addressed any of the many concrete claims that have been made or analysis of those claims (most of them made and/or discussed heavily on D4).
--Summary of them can be found here.
--You have sort of addressed that MoI claims to have found BV innocent. You incomprehensibly claim this is proof that BV and MoI cannot be scum together. Please explain. It is neither impossible nor unheard of for scum to false claim an innocent result on a buddy.
-You point out a lot of reasons that you think Fur is a bad player, but it's fallacious to associate a bad player with being scum. Ability does not indicate affiliation.
@MoI/BV-
I don't think either of you addressed BV's admission that MoI was responsible for stopping him from targeting Fur on N1. That's pretty much a clincher that MoI has been lying about his ability. It doesn't look like he's interested in doing that.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@MoI-
Indicate where you made this "point" and wanted any kind of response. Blowing hot air because you avoided answering a simple and direct point does not mitigate your evasion. Attempting to misrepresent me as tunneling on you to the exclusion of other players and points is ridiculous and blatantly untrue.Kast has once again failed to answer the point I made – that every one of his theories mystically must indicate I am scum.
-I have pointed out several "theories", some of which indicate MoI as scum, some which don't. I've considered them all and the things that make the most sense are:
--MoI's claim about Grapple Beam is inconsistent and does not match with mod provided information about Spyrex's death. This indicates MoI is lying.
--MoI has a jailkeeper role that lets him use an ability of the player he jails. It's a pretty simple theory that I proposed from the beginning; it is the ONLY theory that anyone has proposed that fits with all available information. His claim that there is some "continuing spiral" is a blatant lie attempting to distort the actual post record.
Both of those theories implicate you as lying scum and are the best explanations for all information available. If there are other "theories" which mystically indicate you are scum, please clarify so I can walk you through them and they aren't so "mystical" to you. I doubt you actually need that assistance though.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
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@MoI-
A jailkeeper would not be able to use someone else's ability. I never theorized you wereBut the GAPING hole to this statement is this - I publicly posted the direct name of Furc’s ability before he did. A Jailkeeper would not know the name that Furc’s ability, but a Thief would.JUSTa jailkeeper or that you were ajailkeeper who steals an ability but doesn't know what the stolen ability is. Obviously if you add a pointless and completely nonsensical addition to what I theorized, you can easily makeyourmisrepresentation have a hole.
I'm sure you realize the term jailkeeper does not mean the flavor is INHERENTLY putting someone in a cell and preventing them from going out. Both of your targets have supporting flavor claims that, despite your roleblocking, they were out of their rooms. The immediate potential flavor explanation is that your ability "protects" the target by getting them to move around "looking" for their stolen item instead of being in their room at night to get targeted.Also, how do you explain Muffin’s flavor that he was up looking for the item I stole from him N2 when you tried to ‘kill’ him. That flavor clearly supports my already stated ability to take an item from a player.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
M: 8/2/1
O: 0/3.5/0
V/LA Pretty much all Weekends and Holidays-
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Kast tl;dr
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- Joined: January 12, 2009
@MoI-
-Reading comprehension fail on your part. Let's go back to the first time I raised the theory. Oh wait, that's my second actual post in the game. The situation is really simple; Kast read the game and speculated on a possible role:
--MoI is a jailkeeper who can steal powers.
--MoI tries to argue technicalities and sow confusion about his role, but Kast cuts away MoI's BS and forces him to stop being ambiguous but instead clarify and confirm. MoI's claimed "stealing" ability is actually a 3-part ability which investigates the target, grants MoI an ability, and role-blocks the target.
@Iec-
As far as I can tell, Fur has not claimed the flavor of his N1 roleblock. I tried asking him before, and I don't think he understood the question then it got lost.
@Fur-
Please clarify the flavor of your N1 roleblock.ShowT: 9/6.5/0
M: 8/2/1
O: 0/3.5/0
V/LA Pretty much all Weekends and Holidays-
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Kast tl;dr
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- Posts: 2663
- Joined: January 12, 2009