1025 Tarot Mafia (Over!)

[Ythill]

/confirm

Ani, please don't flake on this game.

[Ythill]

my flavor makes me think it would be useful to ask someone something about the town that only one with a town role pm may know. It wouldn't confirm the questioned if knew, but would definitely help if te opposite were true. Thoughts?

Dram hasn't posted a ruleset but such things are usually dangerously close to modkillable. However, I think that selective flavor claiming could be useful. We should at least announce our genders. I am feminine.

Everyone please answer the follwing question. How much do you know about tarot, divination, and western hermetic traditions in general? (I've been reading tarot for twenty-seven years, including a brief stint as a "psychic friend," public busking, working the occasional event booth, and tutoring a small number of students. I spent more than a decade of that time studying related arts.)

@Mac:

Softclaiming in the confirm phase? Really?

[Ythill]

Yes, that's when I started learning.

@Mistsu:

I adhere more to the Crowley school than that of Waite-Fortune, so I don't bother with the reverse meanings. I disagree with Crowley's interpretation of "Tzadi is not the Star" though, so I consider the Fool to be aligned with Aleph rather than Shin. Don't know if that makes any sense to you, but keep it in mind for innuendos.

[Ythill]

(Oooh, double ninja.)

Every card has a gender, but that's not what I was talking about. And I didn't realize there were no vanillas. I guess I don't mind saying I was one of those confused people too. Here are some basic attributions in case such becomes important later for determining role-interactions...





Also, a riddle... If behind, a fallow field; if before, long-awaited conception; today I've birthed my final child.

[Ythill]

No, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'm just beginning. I have heard Aleph mentioned here and there in my research, though not in any great detail. I'll keep that in mind though.

Not game relevant, but check out the Fool card in your deck. The little dog yipping at his heel is in the shape of the letter Aleph.

[Ythill]

Also, recently, I seem to be doing a half decent job at avoiding being on town lynches. I'm proud of myself.

It doesn't count if you're not posting. Glad to see you active here, I hope it continues.

No, I was trying to eliminate potential fakeclaims for the mafia. Because if they do get those "bad Tarots" then they might wanna claim a good one, and someone may counterclaim it, therby catching a scum.

There are no "bad tarot" though some may seem negatively aspected to the layman. I don't think that scumhunting based on card meanings is going to be worthwhile because it looks like dram isn't a cartomancer. However, it's possible he looked up some of the basic attributions online and somehow applied them to role interactions. I do have some ideas about which powers might be attached to which cards but they are guesses at best and something we probably shoulddn't be talking about anyway.

a no-vanilla game saying everybody has two cards of which you can only use one power on them apiece

Interesting anomoly. Twelve players with two cards each = 24 cards, and yet there are only 22 in the major arcana. One of the following must be true: some people have minor arcana cards, some people have less than two cards, or there are duplicates.

On other matters, it's page three and I don't have any reads yet.

[Ythill]

Oh and, BTW Reck, my son is three.

[Ythill]

Also, did you know that there are tarot decks that are not meant for divination at all, but game play?

Missed this earlier. You mean tarrochini? I've played a few times, I think the deck is exactly the same.

On other matters, it's page three and I don't have any reads yet.

Has the game even started yet?

Scratch that. I have one read.

VOTE: MacavityLock

[Ythill]

Awesome. Switz is Mac's scumbuddy. SC and ani are town. Does anyone know if the game has started yet?

If you are holding the Emperor card, you shouldn't play it until N2. If you're holding the Fool and it confirms you as town, you should play it ASAP.

[Ythill]

Ythill: Who are you talking to and why?

Everyone. Clarify what you're asking with the "why."

Dram's sitting right next to me and just revealed all the scum

Yeah, he told Mac and Switz too.

Not untill dram announces the tart

I'm loving the Freudian typos in this thread, but I took dram's statement about the limited possibility of a VC to mean that he didn't expect us to wait for him. Even if he comes back in and tells us that our votes aren't valid, I don't see the harm in starting now.

[Ythill]

Can we get some more votes on Mac please? Or Switz. I will gladly change my vote to Switz if other people vote for him.

[Ythill]

Why not?

[Ythill]

That doesn't make sense. I mean, stating that you are not going to vote is equally unecesarry and takes more effort. Also, there's no harm involved. Even if it doesn't get counted, extra information is good. Maybe even better if people believe it will not be counted because we can watch how people change their stances once dram gets back.

IMO, the only reason to withhold a vote at this point is that it's a convenient excuse to stay out of the fray a little longer. Not pro-town.

[Ythill]

Except I already said that ani is prob-town. I'm just trying to get him to play better.

[Ythill]

Who's your scum read?

[Ythill]

@SC:

It's just because he's distancing with his buddy. Don't feel bad.

@ani:

Two people called you town, my read isn't from your posts though, so don't get too excited.

@Kise:

If you have a dayvig use it on whomever, but I don't see anything suggesting that NS is scum. Skimming is a habit of his. Plus, when he follows someone to vote as scum, he's more careful. Not saying he's town, just null. Best dayvigs at this point are Mac or Switz. If I were you I'd wait for beter reads and don't announce it until you shoot.

[Ythill]

Ew. Grammar fail.

[Ythill]

Do you think Kise will dayvig you because I told him to? I think I'd dislike your stance that it's okay to have no reads at all on page 3 no matter how you worded it.

[Ythill]

Right, but you didn't bother trying until after I suggested you were a better dayvig target than NS.

Page 3 is an arbitrary number and is not important for our conversation. The point is that you mollified me in such a way as to suppose that dram's V/LA meant we should be disregarding information, or at least not taking it seriously. That's an anti-town stance in and of itself. That you did it with no regard for my alignment makes it worse.

Not exactly a scum-claim but good enough for now, especially after your attack on Switz.

[Ythill]

Yikes. What would it would look like if I overcompensated my town play.

And it was more like... Mac is scum, Switz is also scum, therefore they are scum together. Mac then singled out Switz for something that others were discussing, therefore he was distancing.

You're really curious how I caught your buddy, aren't you? I wonder if there's a day-cop card.

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: Mac
VOTE: Switz

[Ythill]

I'm back, and honestly have not seen anything interesting in the pre-game banter.

1. UK found ani's comments suspicious enough that she's playing off-meta (no RV on the mod), and yet she's telling Reck that the pregame doesn't contain anything interesting.
   
2. Never trust someone who is using the word "honestly" as a casual qualifier.

I'm keeping my vote on Switz for the moment (he's @ L-3), but I wouldn't mind seeing a UK wagon sometime soon.

[Ythill]

Isn't that defense a little too friendly and sensible for D1 UK? Why aren't you calling me dumb?

[Ythill]

@Switz:

Any guesses as to why I suspect you?

@NS:

Scumhunting. You got a problem with it?

@UK:

And now you're defending me. Something is seriously off about your play.

[Ythill]

V/LA all weekend (Aug 20-22) because I am hosting Scumstorm.

I will be around for a while tonight and

may

check in occasionally during the meet, but don't count on it.

[Ythill]

Mod:

fixing tags. Please delete the above post.

V/LA all weekend (Aug 20-22) because I am hosting Scumstorm.

I will be around for a while tonight and

may

check in occasionally during the meet, but don't count on it.

[Ythill]

I'm always this obv-town. Besides, it's only for three days.

[Ythill]

@DTM:

I hope you have an investigation card. Good catch on the "blessed by" thing from the PMs. I think you're right that the 22:24 problem is best explained by overlap. I also think you're town.

My initial suspicion of Switz was based on the fact that he didn't approve of SC forgiving an early tell on Ani. I can see three potential motivations for that stance. The two that could come from town are much less likley in the realy game. The one that can only come from scum is equally likely during any game phase. Ergo, Switz is scum.

WHOEVER PLAYED DEATH SHOULD FESS UP IMO

Agreed. The person who played the Death card is

extremely likely

to be town, based on some priveleged information that I have. If that person does not claim now, I'd like you all to remember this for when that claim eventually comes out.

[Ythill]

EBWOP: realy game == early game

[Ythill]

I've played with scum before.

[Ythill]

Sure. I mean, if he's going to be distracted by my play, then it's best for everyone if he confirms me to be town.

Or... maybe I'm a GF... (spooky)

[Ythill]

In case I haven't made myself clear enough...

The person who played Death should claim so I can confirm that person to be town.

Jarti should not be lynched today. Switz and Reck should confirm that their roles are masculine.

Feminine

Ythill
Mitsu
Capn
UK
ani
DTM

Masculine

Mac
SC
Jarti
Kise
Switz (PoE, assuming equal numbers)
Reck (PoE, asssuming equal numbers)

[Ythill]

Can we please lynch Switz now?

[Ythill]

@Reck:

Probably better if that's decided tomorrow.

@Switz:

Oh, you want me to explain the reasons. I think they're pretty obvious but I suppose I can go into more detail. For context, I'll repeat that this is about you having a problem with SC lowering his suspicions on ani. IME, there are three possible explanations...

1. You are town and think that the response wasn't enough to reverse the tunnel-vision caused by a serious suspicion, so it seems to you that the suspicion was faked. This one doesn't apply because it was way too early in the game for a suspicion of that magnitude.
   
2. You are either town with a solid scum read on ani or scum pretending to have a solid scum read on ani. You think that SC's forgiveness comes in spite of clear evidence and therefore believe that SC is ignoring the evidence. As above, this one falls short because it was way too early for you to have a solid scum read on ani. And, really, it's a dumb reason anyway.
   
3. You are scum and do not like it that townies are finding each other less suspicious, because that will make it harder for you to mislynch them. This is the one that makes sense regardless of the phase.

Now please die.

[Ythill]

No, not yet. I'm pretty sure ani played the Death card anyway.

[Ythill]

Because he was the one worried about seeming scummy because of his cards, and Death is probably the scummiest sounding card.

[Ythill]

If you're town, shouldn't you want investigations to go toward scum rather than get wasted on a townie?

I love being confirmed town. Are you really trying to turn a casual bit of wishful thinking into a tell? Why would it be scummy of me to have a non-optimal opinion?

And it's also interesting that you're planning to lynch me and go flying into Night 1 without any idea what Death does.

I don't like this statement at all. What difference does it make what the card does, unless you're scum? All you need to know is that the card pseudo-confirms the person who played it to be town. I wish ani would post.

[Ythill]

Instructed by who?

[Ythill]

Well damnit, who played Death? Seriously. You can become Yth-confirmed town and all you need to do is fess up.

[Ythill]

I approve of this wagon growth and would like to see more of it.

[Ythill]

8. Who ever played death should only fess up if: a they are comfortable with it and/or b. if they are L-1 to hammer. So Reck and Ythill gains super bonus scum points for asking someone

to early claim

. Remember the role fishing and painting targets. Remember how I said that scum likes to go for specific persons in terms of PRs. Yeah good job in telling scum where to shoot kthnksbye.

Ythil. Shame on you for

painting the target on the death card player especially.

Are you on drugs? Confirming a player as town makes our lynch/vig choices easier until that player dies. Right now the scum can kill Jarti (softclaimed power role) or shoot randomly to potentially wipe out two cards. By confirming the Death player, we put the mafia in a position where they have to choose between doing one of those things or taking out a townie

who has only one card remaining

. If that person plays his second card ASAP (which he should), then we are pressuring the scum to NK a VT. Seems like a good idea to me.

I don't think your stance here is scummy but I do think that you applying general theory to this game without considering the special mechanics is kinda dumb.

[Ythill]

Yeah, I get the irony; was ignoring it. It doesn't matter anyway: everyone has posted since I requested the claim and nobody made an admission, so the request has obviously fallen on deaf ears. I guess we'll have to wait until a wagon forms on whomever it is, just remember in case I'm dead before then:

the person who played the Death card is Yth-confirmed town.

Now can we get on with lynching Switz? Kthx.

[Ythill]

FFS you two... this thread has suddenly filled up with noise. Let me clear things up.

I am not DGB. I play the game at face value. It is rare, indeed, for me to engage in a gambit or trap. For some reason, everyone thinks I do it all the time these days. I claimed PGO as JK in one goddamn game and now I'm Mr. Gambit. So... this is not a gambit or a trap. If it was (it's not) I wouldn't admit that it was anyway (it's really not) so you should stop arguing about the chance that it's a trap (because, you know, it's not).

The person who played the Death card is town

so long as I am town (and I am), so just remember that after I get NKed.

Now can we please drop the subject and lynch Switz? Kthx.

I'm asking about it because I want to figure out if it

is

a scumtell here. Am I not allowed to ask the question?

Well... it's not on the list of pre-approved questions.

Let me rephrase my point. DTM threatens to investigate me. I tell him to bring it on. Then you're all,

OMG, Yth is leading the cop to a sub-optimal target

. Frankly, it looks like you're twisting my meaning and I don't like it. I mean, why don't you have a problem with DTM leading the cop card(s)?

[Ythill]

Well I wouldn't expect you to admit it's a trap, nor do I think you Mr. Gambit. I merely think it'd be a kinda clever sort of thing to do and a possible thing to keep in mind should Death come out later.

Thanks for claiming scum.

The dark red text is noteworthy as a likely mod edit

Nope. Mod edits are bolded brown. I'll start using a different emphasis color, I suppose. And here's a rhyme for you: think real hard, don't play the card.

I think you've got it exactly. DTM put you on his "I'd investigate you" list. You said "go for it". I can see that as encouraging bad play, which I think can be scummy, therefore I'm questioning you about it. I'm not sure where the meaning-twisting is there.

The twist is you making it more serious than it was. Whereas he was actually suggesting that investigations go a certain way, I was merely shooting him a for it. What were my other possible responses? Instruct him not to investigate me? Ignore him? I'm assuming you'd paint those things as scummy as well. So what you're saying here is that DTM making that statement means I'm scum, which is ridiculous.

I am happy that we found the entire scumteam. Switz, Mac, and UK might as well mark this one down as a loss. Yay.

[Ythill]

@SC:

Me? Confident?

@Mac:

Just FYI, the difference between questioning and accusing is seriously blurred in the loaded question you posted. "If you're town, shouldn't you want investigations to go toward scum rather than get wasted on a townie?"

[Ythill]

@UK:

Well, how am I suppose to take your statement then? To me, it sounded like:

I don't think Yth is being tricky so the person who played Death is town but I thought up an argument I can use to lynch him anyway.

@Mac:

You're losing credibility. There were many ways you could have worded that question for information gathering. It was your decision to make it sound like an accusation. Which is fine, because there's nothing wrong with suspecting people. What I have a problem with is you backtracking and explicitly saying that it wasn't meant to be an accusation. And, now, building a strawman about how all questions are as loaded as that one.

[Ythill]

Mac:

I already did. Make my cookie penut-butter chocolate chip, please.

Switz:

Damnit, I don't want the Emperor played today, like I already said. It probably will not matter anyway, because it will not go into affect until night and, with you being dead, it may not have any effect at all. I'm wondering if I should change my plans and keep you alive to play it...

You're not even going to

consider

the possibility that's he's a mafia roleblocker?

I might as well answer this too. In the case of the Emperor, it doesn't matter what Switz's alignment is and him using it as directed is entirely verifiable (by me) overnight.

Yes, that's me having more privelaged information. I bet you're all wondering what my role is, huh?

[Ythill]

You pushing the Switz lynch as of now rings my scumdar.

WTF? I stopped pushing it as soon as he claimed his cards. Note that I can only confirm the Emperor card. And I'm still not sure leashing him is a good idea. The Emperor has a decent chance of hurting the town no matter how he plays it and, if we set ourselves up against it, it will have no benefit. I know that probably doesn't make sense ATM, but to explain in detail would be anti-town. (BTW, some of this is speculation on my part, but it is based on solid facts.)

Anyway...

I'm in the process of moving. Time and internet access will be limited for 3-5 days. I'll try to check in at least once every day or so, but please consider me V/LA until Friday.

UNVOTE: Switz

[Ythill]

Still no internet access at home so this is just a quick check-in. I will vote when I get back, still okay with a UK or Mac lynch. Willing to hammer Switz if enough people want him gone but I think we should leash the Emperor.

This also confirms the theory that: multiple of the same cards are in play.

No it doesn't. At least not in any way that I can grok. Explain?

OMG, DTM caught Yth contradicting!

There is no contradiction. Read DTM's bolded parts again. I stopped

pushing his lynch

the moment he claimed his cards. The second quote is my immediate reaction to the claim and I still hadn't thought it through, but I certainly wasn't rallying anyone. Look at my earlier posts to see what pushing looks like.

Well, if Ythill has magical confirmation powers...

I do not. I can only confirm the Emperor in that I can make sure he targeted it as ordered, and only then because I know what questions to ask tomorrow. Confirming Death's alignment is based on different information. I may explain in more detail in the future if I'm still alive.

[Ythill]

I have internet access again. Eeny meeny miny...
VOTE: UncertainKitten

@DTM:

I didn't claim Emperor. Pay moar attention.

Ythill, the moment you stopped pushing on Switz was when you unvoted.

Don't argue semantics with me. I know what I meant when I said I'd stopped pushing for his lynch. If you misunderstood me, that's not my problem.

[Ythill]

Case: playing off-meta and preparing arguments to mislynch the person who played Death after I am NKed. Probably some other stuff too but I don't remember off-hand.

[Ythill]

P.S. I'm willing to lynch Mac instead if people prefer that.

[Ythill]

@magnus:

Hi. What did I miss?

@Jarti:

Don't be silly. DTM is town.

@Socrates:

Hi. I'll follow you, since your wagon of choice is the other side of my eeny meeny and now more popular. Still think magnus is scum though.

@Switz:

Block yourself and protect DTM. Does that make sense?

UNVOTE: magnus
VOTE: MacavityLock

[Ythill]

@magnus:

I didn't find SC's attack scummy. It was weak, but was very early in the game so that's understandable. You're suggesting that I should have attacked him for it then, in which case I would have been doing the same thing he was. More importantly, you're doing it now, close to deadline. What do you think of Switz reacting to SC diminishing his suspicion of ani?

@Mac:

My read on you is based on you excusing my lack of reads in the early game, your selective attack on Switz, your defense following my instruction to Kise to dayvig you (rather than my vote), and your slippery wierdness following my conversation with DTM involving investigations. Also, I still haven't received that cookie... instead, I got an ad populum excuse.

@Switz:

Probably my speculation is wrong then. Does the Emperor block multiple targets?

If I'm wrong about what the Emperor does, I cannot confirm or control its use and a Switz lynch is back on the table.

[Ythill]

Read the card description in your role PM more carefully and then read my target directions again.

[Ythill]

Do you guys think he selectively excluded SC and Ythil because he's trying to protect his scumbuddies?

Nope. I think he selectively attacked Switz because both were called scum in the early game and he felt the need to distance, either because Switz is a buddy or Mac was pretending he is. Do you really believe that stuff about how scum always act a certain way?

@Mac:

I'm not going to fill the thread with noise. You asked for a case and you got it. It's not like you're ever going to agree with me and you certainly haven't cleared yourself IMO. If I was going to say why Switz alignment doesn't matter, I already would have.

@Reck:

I don't know what you mean by safe but... yes, please vote Mac.

@Switz:

Yes, please "protect" DTM. I'm going to hold my hand and hope I don't get NKed. BTW, if you're budding to me, it's working.

@Socrates:

It's fair as long as you leave your vote on Mac.

[Ythill]

Planning a stunning claim, eh? I'd be up for a magnus lynch second to you.

Are you calling Reck scum or an idiot? Just curious.

[Ythill]

Oh wait a minute. That was a softclaim, wasn't it? I have a guess as to what that card does, and suddenly your second lynch question makes a lot more sense...

Do you understand what I'm talking about?

[Ythill]

Please stop putting words in my mouth, Yth.

I'm not. You said scum/idiots were going to follow me but the only person I've asked to vote for you is Reck. I was just using the words that

actually came out of your

mouth

keyboard

to incite a vote from him. But maybe that was foolish? Heh.

[Ythill]

Regardless of the details, that would be the ballsiest bluff ever. And I don't think you have the tarot knowledge to pull it off so subtly if you're lying. Okay. Now you've convinced me.

UNVOTE: Mac
VOTE: magnus_orion

[Ythill]

If so, that was unintentional.

But was it accurate?

And now, of course, we need to think about who might know what we're talking about.

I'm sooooo glad I got a spot this game.

[Ythill]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you clarify it?

Meh, it was pretty much rhetorical anyway. I mean that this...

'cause selectivity is a town-tell.
Its the same reason hypocrisy is a town-tell.
Because scum usually think about their posts "how will this affect my standing in the town?" and things along those lines, they have at least one more level of introspection than town when posting. Because of that, generally, a lacking in introspectiveness is indicative of a townie alignment. Selectivity, hypocrisy, scum are very careful to avoid these things. Town, sure of their alignment, aren't so careful, and since they are looking for scum on in this game they are more likely to make such a mistake, since, frankly, gut plays a larger role that most people care to admit. Though selectivity is less of a town-tell than hypocrisy, since people are more likely to try to judge others using some kind of equality towards everyone. But its still a town-tell.

...sounds like blathering.

[Ythill]

Funny. Two of those songs work as innuendos for what I was talking about, but not the one that mentions cliffs in the lyrics.

[Ythill]

This is where we lynch magnus. Kthx.

[Ythill]

I'm leaving for work in a little while but will be back online roughly 5 hours before deadline.

[Ythill]

vig/sk/mafia shoot SC tonight plz

Mitsuru has been less useful than SC. Scummier too.

Your slot is intriging, Jarti. I keep coming around to the notion that you're third party.

[Ythill]

We have somewhere around four hours to get two more votes on magnus or a miracle on someone else. Though the sting of a no lynch will be less in a game this full of information, I'd still rather start tomorrow with a majority-driven cardflip.

Seriously. Vote magnus.

[Ythill]

This is good news.

My advice for night is that not everyone should blow all of their cards. I intend to hold both of mine and some other townies should do the same. As we get closer to LYLO and gain more information, the cards will become more useful.

[Ythill]

Goodmorning.

I'm off to work soon, but I'll be back to post here later tonight. I am interested in target claims and results (where applicable) today.

[Ythill]

FFS Switz, what was the point of all our subtle talk yesterday if you're going to come out and announce what the card did before we use it to gain information! Damnit. It did exactly what I expected it to, but now everyone knows so it's done us no good. And we already risked burning town cards. Damnit x10. Well, I suppose forget the target/result claim. Grumble.

@DTM:

It's going to be impossible for me to confirm the Emperor now that Switz blabbed. Sorry.

@Reck:

Keep the speculation to yourself please. Of course I'm town.

@Socrates:

Nice theory, except that the mod told me the last used card will appear in his VC posts. So, unless dram is lying to us...

In other news... SC kill was either a masculine card power or a kill not related to card powers. My money is on Jarti being a SK who wants to set up a vig claim for later. Too bad for him that it's an obvious lie. If someone used a card to kill SC, they should claim it now. It will help us to know if the mafia kill was blocked last night.

[Ythill]

I asked dram about those PMs, which we all got. He said it was a mass night-action prod.

[Ythill]

I think you're correct that myself and the person who played Death are town. Now please put a cork in it. And I say that with the maximum amount of love.

[Ythill]

Anywhere that will make you either shut up or talk about something else.

[Ythill]

@Reck:

I'm being more of a goof than a dick, but whatever.

@DTM:

Yes females could have targeted males and males could have targeted anyone. Knowing that, I was going to get some target claims and learn two things: whether Switz played the card as directed and whether or not any females were unlucky enough to fake a female target. I suspect that the scum kill is not a card-based ability because I doubt they only have a one-shot kill that can be easily blocked. And now you realize why I wanted gender claims, huh? If you read back, it's also why I pointed out that Mitsuru was a better vig target than SC and suggested that not everyone burn their cards N1.

Not placing a vote yet because I need to do some rereading. I started color-coding the VCs and then I realized we don't really have enough flips for it to help much at this point. However, we do have dead scum so I guess I'll start there.

[Ythill]

*crickets*

[Ythill]

Mod:

please edit the OP to indicate that Socrates replaced ani. Thanks.

Not Mafia

DTM
Mac
Prox
Reck
Jarti
Switz

Could be Mafia

Socrates
Mitsuru
Kise

This is just from reading the UK/magnus iso. The odd part about this is it would mean that there were no scum on the magnus lynch wagon, which seems unlikley. I'm going to reread isos of the three suspects, double-check Switz, and examine some of the wagons with my reads in mind. But not right now.

I still can't get the Jarti==SK notion out of my head so, while I'm picking through the evidence, I might as well...

VOTE: Jarti

[Ythill]

The reason Socrates is on the scumlist is UK's early-game distancing with ani. Could have been a ruse. When I read ani in iso, I'll see if it still makes sense.

[Ythill]

Why is Mac not mafia, Ythill?

It's a secret.

Ehhh... I think it is reasonably likely that exactly one of Ythill's town reads is wrong, though that might be Jarti.

I didn't say Jarti was town. I said he was not mafia. I think he's a SK.

Why is Prox not possible Maf?

Not mafia

based on the UK/magnus iso

because when Prox voted for the slot, magnus responded with one of those OMG-how-did-you-know? posts that are very rarely scum-->scum.

[Ythill]

Orly? Reread the posts posts he and I made between 445-460.

[Ythill]

Not sure why I wrote "posts" twice.

[Ythill]

I know you don't follow, but you should be able to tell that I'm not bullshitting. Also, scum-Ythill is a myth.

[Ythill]

And what do you mean "defend?"

[Ythill]

@Reck:

I did? Hmmm... don't remember that but maybe it's because I haven't had any coffee yet. Anyway, you can vote him if you want. We need him to play his card eventually anyway, just to verify that

he's

not bullshitting

me

.

@Shotty:

Are you claiming a day kill or what?

[Ythill]

Force-lynch?

Probably the Hanged Man. Why would town have a force-lynch power?

@Shotty:

Please explain why you have chosen Socrates.

@Socrates:

Did you already play your other card?

[Ythill]

Why?

[Ythill]

Reversal is a governor power, yes? Please explain why you'd want to end the day prematurely.

[Ythill]

Did you already PM the mod?

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: Jarti
VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

[Ythill]

Quick... before he plays it...

[Ythill]

Bullshit. It kills our chances of getting info. You need to die.

Everyone vote Shotty just in case.

[Ythill]

I wish I had a daykill.

[Ythill]

That power would be broken in the hands of scum at lylo, actually.

Not really. Targeting the current wagon leader means that votes are already in play.

Since you've played your cards you should claim them. I may be playing one as well. I sent dram a question and a conditional action depending on the answer. If I play the card I will claim it.

[Ythill]

It would be pretty funny if this was all a gambit from Shotty.

Adding Socrates to the town list, BTW.

[Ythill]

That would be fine except that someone else has the Fool and that's not what it does. Unless I misread something earlier.

[Ythill]

It was Mac's softclaim.

[Ythill]

OK, well, it looks like idiots and scum are probably going to follow Yth off a cliff.

Oh wait a minute. That was a softclaim, wasn't it?

Did you think that my softclaim has to do with "off a cliff"? If so, that was unintentional.

But was it accurate?

Erm. Maybe. If you're thinking of a Decemberists song off of Picaresque, then yes, accurate, but oddly not what I was referring to originally.

Funny. Two of those songs work as innuendos for what I was talking about, but not the one that mentions cliffs in the lyrics.

The two songs in question are "The Infanta" and "The Bagman's Gambit."

[Ythill]

Damnit.

[Ythill]

Hmmmm...

[Ythill]

Okay, whatever...

UNVOTE: shotty
VOTE: Jarti

[Ythill]

Good catch, Mac. Though I was already convinced he's a SK.

@DTM:

Yeah I totally caught that crumb yesterday, partially because I know exactly what the Death card does. It's why you're on my town list and I am absolutely certain about your alignment.

[Ythill]

I'm agreeing with DTM here. Everyone please claim the target of your night action and whether or not it was successful.

@Reck:

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, then yes, I believe you are correct.

[Ythill]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious.

Just waiting for target claims and then I'll start my analysis and we can lynch the scumz. And nobody better pull anything like what happened yesterday, damnit.

[Ythill]

I agree that we should stick to target/result claims for the moment. I agree that there is more than one potential reason for the lack of death. WTF? I agree with everything...

@Prox:

Probably, depending on how it works. This is not me asking how it works, BTW.

[Ythill]

Interesting. So... who played Strength? Target? Success?

[Ythill]

I don't know if it matters. I just know that target/success is the information I'm hoping to use. I'm starting to think the person who played Strength isn't going to admit it. Too bad SC is dead. Does anyone else have the ability to determine who played a card?

Did the Priestess protect from kills, cards, or both?

[Ythill]

I'm tired of waiting for Strength to claim. In case it's not obvious, I played the Empress last night which was a mass card-block limited by gender. This should explain my inside information about the Emperor, which I correctly assumed to be very similar.

I'm going to get on with finding the scumz. If you dont like me listing myself and Yth-confirmed DTM in green, then do your own analysis...

Reckoner (1): Capn

Ani

(1):

UK

Switz (4): MacavityLock, Mitsuru,

Ythill

,

Ani

MacavityLock (1): Switz
Mitsuru (1):

StrangerCoug

Jarti (1): Kise

StrangerCoug

(1): Jarti

UK

(1): xRECKONERx

Not Voting (1):

DTMaster

DTM

and MacavityLock prodded!

Here's the early Switz wagon. I'd attacked both Mac and Switz but was focusing on Mac pretty hard. Either his vote or Mitsu's could be scum redirection if Switz is town. It's too early for UK to take the bait.

Reckoner (1): Capn

Ani

(1):

UK

Switz (2): MacavityLock,

Ythill

MacavityLock (1): Switz
Jarti (3): Kise,

StrangerCoug

,

Ani

StrangerCoug

(1):

DTMaster

UK

(2): xRECKONERx, Jarti

Not Voting (1): Mitsuru

Capn prodded

The Switz mini-wagon has fallen apart but there's no clear alternative. Interesting that Mitsu unvoted without revoting and with no good reason, though she claims to still be suspicious of Switz later. Also, note that Jarti is under a little pressure and makes a cocky switch from SC-town to UK-scum. Distance much? UK is already leaning towards Switz.

Reckoner (1): Capn
Switz (5): MacavityLock,

Ythill

, Reck,

UK

, Jarti
Jarti (3): Kise,

StrangerCoug

,

Ani

StrangerCoug

(1):

DTMaster

Not Voting (2): Mitsuru, Switz

UK makes the switch and Jarti immediately follows her. The field has norrowed. Yet still nobody is biting on that 2/3 town wagon. Nor are they landing on the town-v-town SC-DTM thing that 's been sitting there for awhile. This makes it pretty clear that at least one of Jarti/Kise is mafia. Note that Switz removed his vote as pressure was building on him, earning himself some delicious townie-brownies.

Reckoner (1): Capn
Switz (3): MacavityLock,

MO

, Jarti
Jarti (3): Kise,

StrangerCoug

,

Socrates

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

Magnus_Orion

(2): Switz,

Ythill

Not Voting (2): Reck, Mitsuru

Ani

and Capn are prodded.

Switz wagon is falling apart and

still no votes added to Jarti

. DTM has moved over to another town-wagon that nobody is interested in. The Switz vote on UK looked legit, as did Reck's unvote of UK shortly before the VC. Note that this VC and the previous UK votes gave scum a big hint that their buddy was on a very short list of potential lynches.

Reckoner (1): Capn
Switz (1): MacavityLock,
Jarti (2): Kise,

StrangerCoug

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

DTMaster

(1): Jarti
MacavityLock (3):

Socrates

, Switz,

Ythill

StrangerCoug

(1):

Magnus

Not Voting (2): Reck, Mitsuru

Ani

and Capn are prodded.

Holy crap, look how long Capn has been parked on non-topic Reck. He doesn't have enough curiosity for one townie even though there's two of him. The votes have spread out considerably and still nobody is trying to rally the crumbling Jarti wagon. Remember, scum know that one of their own is in danger. Scum who moved their votes either jumped on Mac or tried to start something new. Switz and Jarti each did one of those things.

Switz (1): MacavityLock,
Jarti (2): Kise,

StrangerCoug

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

MacavityLock (2):

Socrates

, Switz

Magnus_Orion

(4): xRECKx,

Ythill

, Jarti, Prox
Kise (1):

Magnus

Not Voting (1): Mitsuru

Mitsuru is prodded.

A very telling VC. Reck is town. At least one of Jarti/Prox is scum and my money is on Prox because he's been parked on Reck forever and suddenly wakes up to follow him onto and obviously doomed scumbag. Also, look at how MO moved over to his second-slot once the writing was on the wall. Classic distancing that implicates Kise.

Jarti (1): Kise

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

MacavityLock (1):

Socrates

Magnus_Orion

(7): xRECKx,

Ythill

, Jarti, Prox, Switz, MacavityLock,

StrangerCoug

Kise (1):

Magnus

Not Voting (1): Mitsuru

Mitsuru is getting replaced during the night

Hmmmm... Mac and Switz interrupt their OMGUS circle-jerk to vote doomed MO back-to-back? Very odd, but I should probably read it in context before I jump to conclusions. Seems to me it was

very

close to deadline which would excuse their behavior.

Findings

Most likley scum are Prox and one of Jarti/Kise. Mac and shotty look a little dirty. Switz and Reck are town. I intend to read some isos before lynching anyone, but there's no harm in marking my suspicions with a...

VOTE: Prox

[Ythill]

Will the card allow us to see the first cardflip before we decide on the second lynch? Will it require double voting or are they consecutive or some other mechanic?

[Ythill]

Burning that card before LYLO sounds like a good idea so, yes, I think you should play it today. Though we should get others' opinions before you actually do.

We'll need to be careful with our smaller wagons but with one scum and only two town dead, the numbers seem to be in our favor. Even if the main lynch wagon is 100% town, scum only have a 2:2 plurality for the second lynch. Man, I wish shotty would have had a little more patience. His card plus yours would have been a good combo.

Inactivity isn't a good excuse.

[Ythill]

Do we have a math geek in this game? I'd like to see the percentage chance of lynching scum with Prox's card versus without it, assuming random lynches.

Worst case scenario if the card is played seems to be a 4:2 MYLO on D4 which isn't too bad. By way of comparison, WCS without the card is 5:3 LYLO on D5 which is exactly where we'd be if we no lynched in the aforementioned D4 MYLO. Playing the card gives us the added benefit of options @ MYLO, whereas refraining from playing the card gives us more info @ LYLO. The number of allowable mislynches doesn't change. So, basically, this choice comes down to options + speed versus info + time.

I may be withdrawing my support.

[Ythill]

Yay, Strength claimed. Last night I blocked all cards from males targeting females. Doesn't look like it caught anyone. I still think the scum group-kill (assuming they have one) is not a card power but maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks for all the discussion about Prox's card. I think it is to our benefit to take our time and maximize info, so the card should not be played today. Maybe never.

So it looks like the most likley lynch today is Jarti, which is okay with me FTM. I'm still wanting to do iso reads before we hang anyone though, and my final decision will come after those are complete. Going to do some tonight.

[Ythill]

I lied. Well... changed my mind, actually. I got caught up in MD and now I'm too tired for isos. I've got the next few days off work so I'll get to them soon.

It's occurred to me that Prox's two-lynch card seems kind of anti-town. He claims it's good for the town , but also claims that his second card is anti-town, which I assume means that it's worse than the one he explained. Who is most likley to have two anti-town cards? Scum, of course.

Probably the Jarti PM slip is a more solid tell but, if Prox looks as dirty after isos as he does from the VC analysis and card claims, we might want to consider hanging him first, because Jarti has no cards. Just sayin. Either way, I'm really looking forward to reading Jarti's explanation for the slip.

[Ythill]

You mean, other than your alignment?

[Ythill]

Ythill- do you feel Jarti or Prox is scummier?

The jury is still out on that one until I read those isos but, from the information I've already considered, Prox looks scummier. Hence my vote.

I've got a living room full of Scumstormtroopers playing Dominion right now, but will give this game my full attention once they're gone.

[Ythill]

We should either trust him or lynch him.

[Ythill]

UK/MO

UK didn't really implicate anyone, and her play only heavily suggested town alignments of two people I already know about (myself and DTM). MO implicates Kise and one of Mac/Switz. It clears Jarti and, to a lesser extenr, Prox.

Prox

Started the game with conversation that felt forced and a RV on Shotty which is creepy considering later replacements, but was mildly scummy when considering that it allowed the slot to avoid voting. By the time the hydra was abandonned, the combined heads had made twenty-five posts with no scumhunting or stances, other than an unexplained vote on Reck and a vote on Switz placed because of a "quick glance" and then ignored even though the mod never counted it. Prox blames some of the bad play on inactivity, but the slot managed to rolefish twice in that span. After taking over for the hydra, Prox continued to do basically nothing, though he did place a mid-wagon vote on scum for which his only reason was "meh..." Today he's been more active talking about card powers but still not looking for scum. His own worth to the town and WIFOM discussions about how his claimed cards prove his alignment seem more important to him.

Jarti

: Though NS didn't do much scumhunting, his play seemed to be in line with his town meta. I've never played with Jarti before, but several things strike me as scummy about his play, including his buddying to Kise and Reck, voting Switz shortly after painting him as UK's mislynch target, his response to the SC kill, and his lulzy comments about the lack of SK evidence. His PM post looks more like a gambit than an honest mistake, but the PM itself looks legitimate and Jarti's guess as to why NS would claim masculine does make sense.

Kise

Kise's tone makes him slip into the background as prob-town, but that's more a statement about his skill than his alignment, and he's been lurking heavily. His posts contain a peculiar surety that UK is scum but lack any coherent attacks against her. It's unsettling and, considering MO's cardflip, very telling. The Strength claim seems suspicious, both in content and timing. It also contradicts his breadcrumbs.

Mac

In hindsight, his softclaim seems convenient. However, I cannot overlook the L-1 vote on MO placed a few hours before deadline at a time when lurking into no lynch would have been camoflauged behind a thread full of people doing exactly that. I'm hereby confirming my town read on Mac, and admitting that this PoV caused me to skim while reading his iso.

Switz

In hindsight, he seems a lot less scummy than he did on D1. His vote on UK is very legitimate, he exhibited a healthy amount of paranoia, curiosity, and jumping to conclusions. There is the issue of his cards being similar to mine, which would suggest that we have different alignments. And he's lurking like a madman today. I'd like to see more activity from the slot but I am not interested in lynching him at this time.

shotty

Mitsuru looked scummy but I'm not going to bother to explain why because it is painfully obvious that shotty is town.

Not bothering to reread Reck or DTM who are both obv-town.Conclusions in a minute...

[Ythill]

The following players are 100% town and I am interested in creating a voting bloc with them: Reck, DTM, and shotty. If we included prob-town Mac, the bloc would probably control the game from here on out. Anyone interested?

Of the four remaining players, Kise is my top suspect. Prox is a reasonably close second. I do not think that Jarti is mafia but still believe he could be third-party. Switz is a distant, nagging fourth behind the others. I am willing to lynch any of these players but vastly prefer to...

UNVOTE: Prox
VOTE: Kise

I am willing to unvote until the bloc reaches a decision, if the people I invited agree to vote together.

[Ythill]

Usually, when I see two RBs in a game, one of them is mafia.

[Ythill]

...is this [also] a gauge for me to claim what Strength does?

Nope. This is solely because analysis points to you being most likley mafia.

Someone not named Kise should make a list of the claimed genders.

I did that already.

[Ythill]

@mod:

Can we get some prods please?

[Ythill]

That's L-2.

Unofficial Vote Count

Kise (3): Ythill, Mac, shotty
Jarti (2): Kise, Reck
Prox (1): Jarti

Not Voting (7): Prox, Switz, DTM

[Ythill]

That was quick.

[Ythill]

Also, what threat Prox?

[Ythill]

he was bawwing for us not to lynch him or he'd use his no lynch thing

Oh, that. I would have blocked him long before he did that, but Kise was scummier so... yeah.

[Ythill]

Interesting angle, I hadn't thought of that. My assumption was that Kise's cardflip was obscured by a scum card power. Either his own card (meaning he was scum) or shotty's Star card. I settled on that second explanation for two reasons: shotty's first card seemed anti-town and dram's end of day flavor was indicative of the Star. And yet that flies in the face of my town read on shotty. I have a few theories of why scum would choose to obscure Kise but I want to check the wagons before going into them. I am reasonably confidant that Kise was scum.

Mac's death really isn't that much of a mystery. Last night I played my last card and, in looking for a target, I made a list of how many cards each person was still holding. Mac was one of three people still holding both cards and I expected one of them to die, but I thought it would be Reck.

Since we're getting short on cards and Kise died without one of his being revealed, I'm wondering if we should massclaim our card titles. Thoughts?

BTW, I played the World. Who played Temperance?

[Ythill]

Why not?

[Ythill]

No harm in explaining the World. My choices were RB or card-protect. I protected Reck from card effects, because he had two cards left and was hinting about cop powers.

The only people who need to claim card names are Prox and half of Reck.

[Ythill]

Oh yeah, and since it looks like the scum gave up on killing me, I'll now say why DTM is town for playing Death. He used it to make me kill immune. Those of you who know me know that I have not been lynched in more than two years; either I am NKed or live until endgame. Scum would

never

make me kill immune.

I'm assuming the failed kill on N2 was aimed at me.

[Ythill]

Why the hell would you waste an investigation on DTM? I told you he was Yth-confirmed. If you thought I was lying, you should have investigated me. Or are you suffering from the dellusion that there's some reason for scum to make me kill immune?

Do you intend to give the title of your remaing card?

[Ythill]

The only applicable use would be to protect Switz who has RB card left, but I'm more convinced of your alignment so that would be dumb. I wish I had that card.

[Ythill]

The most pro -town thing to play the Devil card also is to protect your fellow male players in the reverse action. The forward arcana is a randomized action. The reverse acts as a human body shield to all

males

which is half the player list.

Points against you and Ythill.

Reading is tech. Mac, SC, and Kise are dead. Jarti is either scum or already immune to cards (or both). Reck and Ben (Switz) are the only other males, and I already said, "The only applicable use would be to protect Switz..."

I don't think playing suboptimally is a scumtell but I do wish Reck had been paying closer attention. The fact is, I don't remember a bloc being explicitly agreed upon, but I don't know if that really matters very much.

From yesterday's reads, my lynch choice is between Jarti, Ben, or Prox. I intend to poke around this game and double check things some more before we lynch. If the scum didn't try to NK me N2, then it means I've likely made an error.

[Ythill]

Also, since you brought it up, meta from /in-7 is one of the reasons for my town read on Reck.

[Ythill]

I already said what the world did.

Specifically, the meta on Reck is that his alignment is not the same in this game as it was in that one because he's behaving differently. I would have brought it up earlier but that game was ongoing. I don't think Reck's card clears him.

You realize the scum are loving this fight, right?

[Ythill]

I'm not in the habit of explaining my town reads. If Reck gets enough votes to worry me, I suppose I'll have to defend him but I'd much rather use my time and energy to pinpoint and hang the mafia. My point is, I

do

have a strong town read on both of you; meanwhile, you are riding his ass for null tells. If I'm wrong and Reck is scum, I can work that out in the endgame. Right now, we need the bloc to stay focused. The rest of the player list is lurking while we infight, and it's neither productive nor beneficial.

And yes, I know I am not confirmed to you. You're going to have to trust me.

I'm in agreement about Prox. We should figure out a way to burn his cards, just in case. The Heirophant will come in handy for that. I could be down for a Jarti lynch but before we do anything like that I want to work the new cardflip into my analysis. Hopefully I will have time to do so today or tomorrow.

@Reck:

Is your last card the Moon or the Devil?

[Ythill]

@DTM:

I don't mind answering some questions, but I'm not the type to answer just because someone asks, even if that person is known town. And as I said, I'm not in the habit of explaining my town reads. The difference between my reads on you and Reck is that his is behavior/tell based and yours is action based. Not only would I need to go back and put together a Reck-is-town case (which is a waste of time unless he's in danger of being lynched), but doing so would give the scum a guidebook on how to manipulate me. Telling everyone that you are town because you made me kill immune is both easy and unlikely to help the scum.

I don't mind you keeping an eye on Reck because I could be wrong about him, but we're

not

lynching inside the bloc today, and I don't like you tunneling on him simply because it's drawing energy from determining the optimal lynch. Ideally, the three of us should be working together to make the best play.

Also, on your no-NK specualtion, I seriously doubt the scum kill is card-based, so I doubt the Emperess blocked the kill. Your JK is a possibility we should keep in mind but, if it blocked the kill, my assumption is that Reck was the intended target.

@Prox:

The issue is that you are one of the three most suspicious players left and, if your slot is scum, then I don't want either of those cards around. The town doesn't need them to win this. If you are town, please play with the knowledge that you are highly suspected.

@Ben:

I'm not sure what's funnier, that you think I'm scum in this game or that you think you'd know it if I was.

[Ythill]

Ben's got the Heirophant, and Switz explained it was a RB without giving specifics. This means that Kise died holding the Moon. Traditionally, the Moon card has to do with gaining and keeping secrets. However, flavor at the end of yesterday was either the Tower or the Star; the former is still held by Prox while the latter was played by shotty. If someone from the original bloc is scum, it's shotty.

Claiming a no-action tracker result on a guy who had recently claimed no-action is an easy lie. That said, I still suspect that shotty is town based on his behavior.

I do intend to do some analysis but I've been too busy for that sort of thing today. Maybe tonight or tomorrow.

Ninja'd: The conflicting claim was explained to my satisfaction, though Jarti could still be scum.

[Ythill]

NS claimed a gender. Jarti claimed genderless which is a mystery on it's own.

Jarti didn't claim either way. The role PM he posted, though it didn't contain an explicit gender like ours, did use the pronoun "he" to refer to the role. NS was looking in his role PM for a gender and

didn't realize that our PMs have explicit genders

, but he found enough information to answer the question. The lack of a gender isn't really a mystery since the qualifier only interacts with card-powers which Jarti has claimed immunity to. Again, this is not an argument for Jarti-town but I think the contradiction in claims has been explained well enough that we can drop it.

Occam's razor points to Star

I know. However, I have sided with the Razor over my alignment reads before and it got me bad results. Shotty's been in a lot of my games lately plus he was in one of my wife's games that I was reading. I read him well and he's looking town here.

Prox can play a card on Jarti (the vote card is the easiest since it's the most visual).

Jarti is probably telling the truth no matter what his alignment is. Although this would be one way to burn Prox's cards, I'd rather come up with other ideas that may actually help the town.

An idea. Moon is a passive card.

Certainly possible. Or it could be an active card that isn't posted by the mod, which would make sense if it was what obscured Kise's lynch. I feel like the Kise topic is a dead end of specualtion and I don't feel we should be hinging our decisions on it anyway, though I suppose it's still good to keep all the posibilities in mind.

Something else to keep in mind... The Emperor and Empress were balanced across genders and our roles were more-or-less divided equally between them. Then there's the devil which weights things heavily toward the masculine, no balancing feminine card, and only one card unknown. Traditionally, the devil has a masculine aspect while the moon has a feminine one. Just sayin.

More in a bit...

[Ythill]

Seven living players. Plus Kise who is dead/alive town/scum, FFS. I'm just going to assume he's dead for now. No remaining protects. One remaining RB.

Yth/DTM = 100% town. Reck/Shotty = 90% town. That's 4/7 and we control one lynch from among Jarti, Prox, and Ben.

Prox is questionable but has lynch immunity if he is scum. If Kise was town, a no lynch today puts us @ 4:2 tomorrow with one bloc-mate down and we no longer control the lynch, but Prox would be auto-lynched by the town, which would put us @ 3:1. The most likley players are myself, shotty, Jarti, and Ben. Yuck.

If we decide to lynch someone else today and that person is town, then it's

possible

(hinging on Kise's alignment) that we'd be in a 3:2 tomorrow and Prox's cards cost us the game if he is scum. It is important that we either burn his cards or lynch him today.

If we do not lynch Prox, we could lynch the other two instead. We let Prox into the bloc and he targets DTM with double-voter. Then he plays the double lynch card. The bloc divides their six votes 4:2 between Jarti and Ben. If there are two scum between Kise/Jarti/Ben, the town wins. If there are no scum among those three, the town loses. If there is one scum among those three, we awaken tomorrow in a 3:1 endgame where the most likley players are myself, Reck, shotty, and Prox. Which should also be a town win. Problems: Jarti's immunity may effect the double lynch card, or Ben might RB it.

Damnit dram. I love this game.

[Ythill]

Sorry man, I'll respond after I post this. FTR, this is in a quote box but all of the commentary is new, plus I added the new flips.

Reckoner (1): Capn

Ani

(1):

UK

Switz (4):

MacavityLock

, Mitsuru,

Ythill

,

Ani

MacavityLock

(1): Switz
Mitsuru (1):

StrangerCoug

Jarti (1):

Kise

StrangerCoug

(1): Jarti

UK

(1): xRECKONERx

Not Voting (1):

DTMaster

DTM

and MacavityLock prodded!

Ben or shotty looks like scum.

Reckoner (1): Capn

Ani

(1):

UK

Switz (2):

MacavityLock

,

Ythill

MacavityLock

(1): Switz
Jarti (3):

Kise

,

StrangerCoug

,

Ani

StrangerCoug

(1):

DTMaster

UK

(2): xRECKONERx, Jarti

Not Voting (1): Mitsuru

Capn prodded

Jarti or Kise looks like scum. Jarti votes UK under pressure.

Reckoner (1): Capn
Switz (5):

MacavityLock

,

Ythill

, Reck,

UK

, Jarti
Jarti (3):

Kise

,

StrangerCoug

,

Ani

StrangerCoug

(1):

DTMaster

Not Voting (2): Mitsuru, Switz

Ben and Jarti are very likley not scum together. Of them, Ben looks scummier by vote placement but Jarti immediately followed the person he last voted.

Reckoner (1): Capn
Switz (3):

MacavityLock

,

MO

, Jarti
Jarti (3):

Kise

,

StrangerCoug

,

Socrates

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

Magnus_Orion

(2): Switz,

Ythill

Not Voting (2): Reck, Mitsuru

Ani

and Capn are prodded.

Jarti is under the same pressure but doesn't shift back to UK when the Switz wagon falls apart. Again, Ben and Jarti are not buddies.

Reckoner (1): Capn
Switz (1):

MacavityLock

,
Jarti (2):

Kise

,

StrangerCoug

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

DTMaster

(1): Jarti

MacavityLock

(3):

Socrates

, Switz,

Ythill

StrangerCoug

(1):

Magnus

Not Voting (2): Reck, Mitsuru

Ani

and Capn are prodded.

When the votes spread, Switz jumped on Mac-town and Jarti voted DTM. Comparing their vote posts is would be helpful.

Switz (1):

MacavityLock

,
Jarti (2):

Kise

,

StrangerCoug

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

MacavityLock

(2):

Socrates

, Switz

Magnus_Orion

(4): xRECKx,

Ythill

, Jarti, Prox
Kise (1):

Magnus

Not Voting (1): Mitsuru

Mitsuru is prodded.

This still implicates Prox and Kise.

Jarti (1):

Kise

Ythill

(1):

DTMaster

MacavityLock

(1):

Socrates

Magnus_Orion

(7): xRECKx,

Ythill

, Jarti, Prox, Switz,

MacavityLock

,

StrangerCoug

Kise (1):

Magnus

Not Voting (1): Mitsuru

Mitsuru is getting replaced during the night

Kise is still implicated. One of Prox/Ben/shotty must be scum.

Overall I think some things are very clear. One of Jarti/Kise is scum for sure. Jarti is not buddies with Switz and probably not with Prox.

Jarti (1):

Kise

Kise

(5):

Ythill

,

MacavityLock

, DMSIS, Reck, Jarti

Not Voting (3): Prox, Switz,

DTM

Due to Mac's vote, the bloc did not actually control the lynch but Mac was town. One of Jarti/Kise is

even more

likely scum.

[Ythill]

If they're not ongoing games can you link a few meta refrences?

Why not ust search for his posts? This town game was still on my bookmarks, another is handy but ongoing. This is the scum game where he played against my wife.

I checked out Kise and I see what you mean but that power seems too crazy for scum or town. If he comes back as a zombie tomorrow, he's probably a survivor and we should be set up so that he wins with the town.

I'd like to read Prox's opinion of the lynch-everyone-but-him plan.

[Ythill]

One of the three. If Kise was scum, it's still favorable even if Jarti and Ben are both town. Of course that would mean that you are scum or I am very, very wrong.

[Ythill]

Thanks dram. I like it too.

@Jarti:

I think that if you were the actual lynch, the card might still allow us to have a second lynch on someone else. (Heh, ninja'd by Prox).

[Ythill]

That's a

very

good idea.

I seriously cannot believe that you'd think there was a scum governor, though. Seriously.

With two RBs, two mass RBs, a card-immune role, and a card that rushes the lynch, it doesn't seem horribly unbalanced. Your instance that the role clears you in spite of voting patterns and behavior is what seems wrong to me. That said, you'll note that us getting you to burn your cards is us saying you're not the top suspect anymore. Otherwise we could just have Ben RB you and then lynch you.

Speaking of Ben... he, shotty, and Reck are lurking like hell. WTF?

[Ythill]

I agree with Jarti on two counts: Prox should make DTM a double-voter, and he should quote at least the card descriptions from his role PM so we can make a direct interpretation. I'm willing to quote my role PM but I don't see the point. The scum probably have fake PMs.

If it looks like the no lynch plan will work, then Ben should be the main lynch. If it will not, then Jarti should be the main lynch with Ben as the backup.

[Ythill]

I still don't see the point, but I don't see any problem with it either.

[Ythill]

It essentially boils down to the same answer to 'why do I need to claim my character name too? I already claimed my role & I'm sure the mod gave scum safe-claim characters' type of reasoning. If you're doing a full massclaim...you massclaim in full what you can.

That seems like a cop-out to me.

Why lynch me Ythill?

Because you're scum. Duh.

If it looks like the no lynch plan will work, then Ben should be the main lynch. If it will not, then Jarti should be the main lynch with Ben as the backup.

Could I get a yes or no on this from the bloc plus Prox?

[Ythill]

Jarti is arguing

for

them. Meanwhile I'm not against massquoting PMs, but I am poking at him trying to find out what purpose he thinks it will serve.

[Ythill]

Shotty, it doesn't matter what order we go in, everyone has already claimed. And Jarti already quoted his. Then there was an important conversation about it. Please try to pay attention.

The Arcanas understand what the human fails to fathom. They seek guidance in their mother figure, ignoring that it is from the Arcana that their universe is born.

Ythill, You are an

Innocent Woman

, touched by The Empress and The World

-You can vote and post
-You can at anytime consume the power of one of your tarot arcane. Once used, a card burns, so choose how you'll play your cards wisely

The Empress
-All males targeting females will fail tonight
-All females targetting males will fail tonight (excluding this card)

The World
-PM the name of a player. All card effects aimed at that player are disabled
-PM the name of a player. All card effects activated by that player are disabled

You win when the mafia is defeated

Thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=14951

Remember my riddle?

If behind, a fallow field; if before, long-awaited conception; today I've birthed my final child.

In the Fool's journey, the Empress is the mother figure, symbolizing fertility, childbirth, and nurturing. The Universe is the final realization of the Fool, symbolizing wholeness and completion. Behind and before refer to the past and future in a celtic cross reading.

Anyway, I dare the scum to write their own flavor.

[Ythill]

I think the stricture you suggest might have been unintended because the second highest wagon being a no lynch may not have occured to dram. You insisting on assuming rather than determining the viability of the plan suggests that you would prefer two lynches to one. Why the preference when a single lynch favors town? Is your buddy in the bloc?

Why haven't you given DTM double voting powers?

Mod: What will happen if the second highest wagon is no lynch? What will happen in the event of a tie for second?

[Ythill]

Yawn. Can we get through this quickly please?

[Ythill]

I prodded the mod.

Not seeing much that needs comment in here except that I think I see what DTM sees in the PMs. Or maybe I see something different, but it's really not much.

And why the hell is Reck lurking, didn't he just say he was going to have more time for this game?

[Ythill]

So we need Jarti to be the actual lynch if we want to hang him. Otherwise his card immunity will probably cause the second lynch to hit someone beneath him in the order.

@Prox:

Did you play the card? Why haven't you given DTM double-voting powers yet?

@DTM:

Shotty isn't confirmed town but you are. The remaining scenarios where you could be scum are ridiculous.

[Ythill]

@Reck:

FFS, you're sooooo gullible. You really think DTM has two cards plus the ability to revoke them?

@DTM:

I didn't claim BPT until after the scum missed a kill (assuming it was on me) and then killed elsewhere, which seems to show that they gave up on me. And the reason I claimed was to explain my confirmation of your alignment. My assumption was that you played the card on me because you are familliar with my record. Point being, I am going to be targeted by scum for the kill eventually no matter what, and it usually happens on or before N2. The only exceptions are when I am scum or when my reads are horribly wrong.

Please try placing two votes (on two separate players is probably best). Also, for comparison, could you please quote your PM?

@Ben:

Please full-claim.

Mod: Can we get a VC? Mainly because I want to see verification that Prox played his cards.

If Prox

did

play his cards, we should start moving toward our lynches. I'm realizing that if Jarti is scum who immune to cards, there's a good chance he would be the one delivering kills and therefore the scum would not have been blocked. This convinces me that Kise was scum. The remaining scum is Benmage. If I am wrong about Kise, then it is

possible

(but unlikley) that Shotty and Prox are scum together. We should lynch Benmage and Prox.

VOTE: Benmage

[Ythill]

Nice job ruining the gambit.

[Ythill]

No, I mean the other gambit.

[Ythill]

Yeah but if that miss was them shooting me, you just added me to the NK list tonight. Which means if we only hit one scum today, I might not be around in LYLO. Personally, I think they'd be retarded to kill anyone other than you tonight anyway, but it was extra nice having the insurance of a good lie. I do appreciate you playing along as long as you did though.

@Ben:

We already know that your last card is a RB that Switz felt was very useful and which he said he was going to burn on N1 to bargain his way out of his D1 lynch. What we don't know is exactly how it is worded and therefore how it might be exploited by the town. Full quote.

@Reck:

Please move your vote to Benmage.

[Ythill]

The card I didn't show was not used so stop asking me, scum.

vote ythill, shotty

Ben is 100% scum. Prox is implicated.

Note that Ben and I are each at two. If he is lynched ATM, I am the second lynch.

[Ythill]

Oh and that was ninja'd by Reck. Ben is actually @ L-1.

[Ythill]

Ben and Prox are the scum. GG.

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: Ben

For a minute since Prox hammer would suck.

[Ythill]

Prox lied about giving DTM the double-vote. Ben and Prox are the scum. Seriously.

[Ythill]

VOTE: Prox
That should make it 2:2:2. If DTM votes Ben, I will hammer and it should lynch them both.

[Ythill]

I don't mind being the second lynch if people prefer that, but I don't think they do.

[Ythill]

Right but Prox was two votes last.

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: Prox
VOTE: Ben

DTM, a hammer is game over.

[Ythill]

Benmage is not a double voter either. He tried, in case his buddy thought to play the card on him.

Benmage is @ L-1.
Prox and I are each @ L-3 but he was there most recently.

[Ythill]

I was wondering what you were talking about. Are you going to hammer?

[Ythill]

@Ben:

You're scum for a lot of reasons...

Switz was put-off by townies reconciling their differences. He tried to get townies to share the heat when it was put on him. He would have been lynched D1 except that he gave up control of his cards, and then renegged on playing one of them. His attacks versus townies were mostly jabs, while his attacks versus the UK/MO slot were more confidant. The slot as a whole looks bad in the VC analysis.

Meanwhile, you have done no scumhunting, are hardly paying attention, and are banging your head against the bloc in a fit of emo OMGUS. Also, you're trying to manipulate the second lynch away from the wishes of the majority and acting in a way that suggests you think Prox would have a reason to give double-voting powers to you instead of DTM.

As if that wasn't enough, you are a RB that is basically in a CC cardflip with me, and the only way I

could

be scum is if Reck is scum with me or was targeted for NK on the night of the miss.

[Ythill]

Yes, you are alive.

Here's the breakdown...

DTM is town because he played bulletproof on me (a common scum NK target and very unlikley mislynch), and because Reck claimed innocent on him. Jarti is town because if he was mafia he'd be an unblockable, untrackable killer and the scum kill was blocked. From PoVs other than my own, I am prob-town because by BP seems to have absorbed the NK, the only way I'm scum is if Reck was killed or the killer on the same night. Reck is prob-town because meta between two simultaneous games shows a difference between this game and his scum game, also because he is unCCed as a cop, and because of some behavioral tells. Shotty is prob town because of obv-meta.

That's five players. There are only three questionable alignments left. One is a guy who "died" with no cardflip. The other two are the guy who lied about giving a double-vote to the confirmed townie, and a CCed RB who acted as if he expected to get that double-vote instead, both of whom are lurking and acting strange. If

just one

of those three are/were mafia, we end up in a very comfortable LYLO tomorrow. If two are, the town wins immediately.

What are you waiting for, DTM?

[Ythill]

*sigh*

[Ythill]

WTF, DTM? The Heirophant only blocks at night. Plus, shotty has already played both of his cards. Unless this was some plan to uselessly burn Ben's last card, I'm going to have to advise people to stop listening to you.

Keep your head in the game, man. Also, please hammer.

[Ythill]

I'm just talking about this...

Since it

blocks all actions during a full cycle

I want you to block

Shotty who can confirm this

.

The first part (blue) is not true. The second part (red) is non-sensical. I don't want you to blindly follow me, but I do want you to make more sense.

Jarti is town. This is obvious. Jarti is card-immune. Why would any other mafia deliver the kill? How would Jarti's kill have been blocked? Do you understand?

[Ythill]

Less paranoia, more of that critical thinking you are so proud of. Kthx.

[Ythill]

Who ever said the kill had to be blocked. I was unaware that immune to card effects also included super kills. We had a jailkeep and bullet proof in play the night of no kills.

Think about it. Every town power is a card power. Being immune to card effects would make Jarti immune to tracking, blocking, protecting, redirecting, or anything else that can mess with the kill. There is absoluetly nor reason the mafia would have anyone else deliver the kill. UK isn't that stupid, neither is MO, neither is Jarti. Second point is that if Jarti

was

delivering the kill, it could not have failed for any reason unless both the mod

and

a town player lied about how abilities work in this game.

The kill was stopped for one of three reasons. Either I was targeted, Reck was targeted, or Reck was the killer. Period.

@Jarti:

It is still not certain that DTM has a double vote, but at least now we know that the card has been played.

[Ythill]

Oh, I didn't notice the extra vote.

[Ythill]

The Hierophant
-PM me the name of a player. That player is powerless for the night
-PM me the name of a power (protection, investigation, blocking, killing, redirecting). Any cards affiliated with that ability can't be used tonight

Why would a town player want to prevent all protections? All investigations? Based on the cards we have seen, which is most of them, DTM's Death card was the only kill; why would a townie have the ability to automatically block the only vig kill? These are important questions and the only answer that makes sense is that Ben isn't town. This also explains why he didn't want to quote the card powers.

@DTM:

If you really think I'm scummier than Prox, place one of your votes on me and then hammer Ben.

[Ythill]

Nah, he's just

really

paranoid.

Ythill I want you to reanalyze Benmage's reaction to how I directed the block based on his flip, especially if Benmage flips scum.

Of course. If I live until the endgame, I will re-analyze every read I have on every player. It's how I roll. Please do the same if I die, but base your decision on something other than paranoia. Kthx.

Also, you realize that you just told Ben that if he plays his card the way you want him to, you'e going to lynch him, right? Somehow I don't think that's going to work very well.

[Ythill]

This last post from Prox makes him seem town to me. I'm now assuming that UK/MO-Ben-Kise was the scumteam.

[Ythill]

I'm town, so it doesn't matter who it is if I am scum. I was not told whether or not I used up my BP. My assumption is yes, based on when I usually get NKed.

I'm absolutely certain Ben was scum. Probably Kise too, but I guess we'll wait and see. Any last minute questions now that you know I'm town?

Be careful tomorrow. If the game is still going, the last scum is going to be hard to find. Don't let paranoia lead yo astray. DTM and Jarti

cannot

be scum. Shotty and Reck are playing to a town meta, and Prox started reading town to me at the end. Use the analyses I posted and compare key moments from those three players. Good luck.

[Ythill]

Serioulsy, stop freaking out. You or Jarti will be killed tonight. The other is town. Ben is scum.

[Ythill]

Any questions?

[Ythill]

I know, damnit. It took a double lynch, a double vote, and a doubly bad misread to do it though. You should have stuck with the read that made you BP me.

[Ythill]

I still think Ben is scum, but he'd admit it if he was the last one. Has to be Prox, shotty, or Reck.

[Ythill]

You realize I'm lynched too, right?

If Ben is town well... I hope Kise was scum.

[Ythill]

Ythill fails

Not entirely. There was one scum between you, me, and Kise, which was all we needed for success. A mid-day misread on Reck is hardly a fail. Rather, him killing me was a good move into the endgame.

DTM and Jarti were both obv-town. The arguments were airtight. If shotty would have listened to the plain truth that Jarti-scum couldn't have missed a kill, he would have known Reck was scum and would have at least given Jarti a chance to make the right choice.

Well, scum did a good job.

Reck did. The others... not so much. Even then, the game pretty much hinged on shotty playing badly during endgame. It's not the first time I've seen that happen.

I think the most admirable performance was dram's. The set-up and flavor were so interesting that they distracted from the game, but not so much that we ever missed a deadline. The set-up was elaborate enough to be mind-boggling and yet played out with perfect balance right up until the final vote. I nom'd him for Best Setup, please show your support if you agree with me.

[Ythill]

Oh come on, I totally saved this game for scum

I know you did, hence my statement about you playing well, but not your buddies. They were both obv.

I still don't understand the meta arguments. I asked about it and it was shot down.

Not much, really. Mostly gut based on playing the two games with him at the same time and his play feeling different here than it did in the other game (where he was scum). I also thought he'd hesitate to fakeclaim cop here since I saw through it in the other game. Though, in all honesty, part of my explicit read was just based on keeping the bloc together. Reck was buddying to me pretty hard and I figured that, if he was scum, he'd keep me alive until endgame if I buddied right back to him. Same with shotty.

The QT was an interesting read, Kise called me obvtownass.

[Ythill]

shotty, still can't believe that you used The Sun in the way you did.

That was nothing compared to voting Jarti in endgame. If there was a scummy for worst town performance, I'd nom shotty for sure.

[Ythill]

I liked you, I just thought you were too paranoid. And then you mislynched me.