Mafia 1013 - Prozacs Basic Theme - Game has ENDED

[llamaeatataco]

Ohai Mallow!

Raivann, my mom has always made chowder a million times better than theirs. However, theirs was alright.

[llamaeatataco]

vote: Xvart

Because he signs his posts.


@BlackBerry: It's better than a random vote, because people are far more likely to react to that than to a vote. At least, in a perfect world...

As for sucking up i mean to the town in general like saying "hey don't worry about me I'm all loveable smiles" whilst you slit our throats in the night.

The hell? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard (no offense). There is a huge difference between liking a player and thinking they are town.

I agree with Raivann about the attitude of his first post. Adding to this is the way he spends quite a bit of it discussing his own playstyle. Blackberry seems to be thinking a lot about how he is seen by others, and that makes him likely scum.

For the record, although I may be experienced, I prefer to call myself MS-challenged . I don't play the same way people expect "experienced MS players" to play. For Example: I never use the terms FOS, WIFOM, etc. Plus I am not a fan of Random Voting. I think I basically just do not like conforming and the fact that I like to have fun and be odd (which often makes me stick out as a target for an easy lynch because I try to have fun ).

I've noticed a lot of people (not a majority, but there's always that one or two player each game) on here get off by arguing and debating (I think a lot of people just come here to prove they are better debaters - trying to use logic to twist what has happened to their advantage). I prefer to just have fun and use my not-so-impressive skills to catch mafia (although I think I downplay my skills, there are certain things I catch that make me go "Aha! He is mafia! Lynch him!" but nobody sees my point and I'm not the best of using said twisted logic to make people see things how I see it ). I don't know what the point of writing all that is. Just so everyone can see my point-of-view/playstyle and be prepared? Lol.

This is what you are referring to. One post. On d1. How does that show that BB spends a lot of time thinking about how others view him? In fact, in re-reading, it doesn't seem to be talking very much about how others see him as much as how he sees what others don't. However, even if he did think a lot about how others perceived him, is that a scummy thing or is it just personality? Some people spend all of their time irl making sure people think highly of them.

[llamaeatataco]

What we have learned here today: Never use the word 'interesting' in a game of mafia.

Anyway...

unvote, vote:fishythefish

For what I've already said and what Xvart said.

However, there is a small amount of truth to 'scum is more worried about appearances.'

[llamaeatataco]

@Raivann: Exaggeration =/= lying. Well, technically it does, but in practice...

Now, is anyone going to make some tenuous connection between raivann and fishy, or do I have to? (buddying and such.)

[llamaeatataco]

@Budja: So you as well are saying that you believe scum would use smilies more often than town?

Also, the antagonism is because it makes the day go faster.

@Fishy: My stance on you didn't change at all. I was clarifying. There was one shred of truth in all of the stupidity, and I was confirming its existence. The rest of it was still stupid.

@Mitsuru: Yes, we're overreacting a little bit. It's better than under-reacting.

[llamaeatataco]

@llama: what's wrong with my vote, exactly? I don't understand your explanations thus far. Can you also please explain exactly what the connection between Raivann and me is - all I see is that we agree on something.

Whoops. OK, connection between you and Raivann: You backed up his absolutely batshit insane theory, he's now attacking me for attacking you, etc. It's slightly silly, but I did say tenuous, didn't I?

Anyway, what's wrong with your vote? It's stupid. 'Smilies = sucking up to town' is absolutely retarded. It's quite obviously a personality thing.

If your stance didn't change between those posts, why did you only vote in the second one

Because I didn't feel like taking my random vote off in my first post.

Llama, Pushing an "innocent" persona -> slightly higher chance of being scum -> good starting wagon. Yes, it could be a personality thing, but why WIFOM.

It's the first link that is a problem. The first link that you didn't list, that of "People who use smilies are trying to look innocent."
(This also applies to Fishy) If you don't agree with your argument after I take it to its (silly) logical conclusion, then be a man and unvote and accept that you are wrong.

To beat a dead horse:

I feel you are rather strawmanning my argument on BB by condensing it to "scum use smilies more than town". While I suppose that is a consequence of it, it makes the argument sound more silly than it is.

I'm not making it sound

more

silly than it is, you're trying to make it sound

less

silly. I'm not strawmanning you, I'm showing you what your saying without dressing it up with stupid crap to make it sound legit.

Reread a bit. Expanding (slightly) on my gut, you feel hollow/fake to me. The opinion changing on Fishy especially feels off (to take from Raivann).

Cool story bro. What's this opinion change thing again? The part where I acknowledged that there was a bit of truth in the mess of fail?

I never said it was a tell. You just did. I WILL say that that just makes me suspect you more and I think you just slipped.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Indeed. 'splain Mallow?

[llamaeatataco]

This, and the fact that he talks about his playstyle (which is an argument you have made no reference to), make me think he is thinking about his own image.

Oh, I did forget about that bit. I do happen to agree with you in part on this one. It's something town might do, but only a town who is self conscious or weird. Scum might be more likely to do this if they don't do it normally.

Let's play spot the difference!

I feel you are rather strawmanning my argument on BB by condensing it to "scum use smilies more than town". While I suppose that is a consequence of it, it makes the argument sound more silly than it is.

I think it's clear that that is not equivalent to "smilies are scummy".

Does anyone else see it?

I don't believed that you actually went back and looked at my posts when I challenged you on that. And since your supposedly basing your vote off my posts, I find that pretty suspect.

I find it hard to believe that you really don't think I read your post at all... Especially when I quoted it to you. You = Liar. Liars = scum. Therefore, you = scum.

Oh wait, that was someone else who said that, so it doesn't have that ironic effect.


Jokey style =/= trying to be liked by town. Jokey style = personality. End of story.

I want to see how you react to this. You've done something that raises a red flag to me (I'm not revealing what it is - because it is a tell that I think is more accurate than a lot of other tells, and by revealing it - it prevents mafia from doing that tell in the future).

^Dislike.

Now, about this mess with SC...

Obv bandwagon vote is obv.

Jack, answer BB's question. Being evasive is just irritating.

[llamaeatataco]

but people are so much more fun when they're slightly irritated...

Why is being evasive irritating?
Because it means you don't answer questions, so issues stay confused, and you seem scummier and therefore generate more confusion.

Why do you want me to answer bb's question?
Mainly because you don't want to answer it. Also, I want your opinion on BB's non reason.

Why did you agree with fishy in this post?
Because he said something true.

Why did you ask "did anyone else see this"?
Because I'm worried that I might actually be insane. Did you know that that eliminates a whole slew of career opportunities?

What did you mean by "did anyone else see this"?
Exactly what I said.

What is there to see exactly?
Fishy went from saying 'yeah, that's pretty much my argument' to 'no, that's not what I'm saying at all.'

Why do liars equal scum?
-_-

Why is "obv bandwagon obv" as you say?
Because it's extremely obvious. It might be a town bandwagon, but it's still very obviously a bandwagon vote.

^^ The above was because I'm bored and don't have anything better to do, not because I thought the questions were intended to be serious.

[llamaeatataco]

and why RVS vote someone for being a mod unless you were scared of their scumhunting abilities.

Are you even trying?

@Mitsuru: No, switch that around. I said that jokey style = personality. And then all of this discussion of joking made me want to try a few...

Jokey style

=/=

trying to be liked by town.

The bolded is supposed to be a does-not-equal sign.

So, as I suspected, your whole defense of BlackBerry is a lame attempt to look town. GG, scum.

I most certainly hope you are basing your read on more than that. If you are, your entire attack is just a lame attempt to look pro town by hopping on a popular wagon. GG.

About Mallow: I dunno. Once I figure out what the hell he's saying I'll tell you. It's either completely unknown or slightly scum.


Oh, and

unvote, vote:Jack

for being a dick. A scummy dick.


PS: While we're on silly tells...

I've played w/him a couple times before and I think he knows I usually get lynched early and often.
I think if he was scum he wouldn't have agreed w/me on anything.

Uhh... You do realize that this only makes sense if you are scum, right?

[llamaeatataco]

Who are you referring to when you say "we're"?

The town in general.

@Scoug: I'm pretty sure I said I was voting him for being annoying. It's an emotion vote with a side of scumminess.

[llamaeatataco]

He'd be fine in my book if he didn't post #129. Anybody who cannot conceive his reason for voting Jack being insulting has lost all emotions whatsoever.

That's what I was referring to.

Also, if you think Mallow's English is bad...

This is what's confusing me. You seem to be saying SC said flippancy is a tell. I don't get how he said that and how it makes him slip.

screw this. I'm tired of watching you people be too dense to figure it out.
Normally I don't go in and answer people's questions for them, but this is getting on my nerves.

Eh, It'd be too hard to do the quotes and I can't figure out how to nest them in the right order. Basically, go read Mallow's 70, or his iso 4.

Here's the basics if you won't even do that:

Being flippant is not a tell. Sorry.

I never said it was a tell. You just did. I WILL say that that just makes me suspect you more and I think you just slipped.

Does that clear anything up?

Basically, Mallow thought SC was jumping the gun by rushing to say it wasn't a tell before Mallow ever even made that connection. The implication was obvious however, so I don't really know why Mallow thought this important.

I got a daycop result on you...it said you were guilty but the flavor hinted at miller (townie who appears guilty), is that really your role?

I dislike this. I mean, it makes me think your previous actions are less scummy, but it makes things more complicated.

[llamaeatataco]

EBWOP: I was in no way implying that Mitsuru has bad English. It just came out that way. I was just referring to a player from EM that has hilariously bad English, but I forgot to finish my thought before I jumped out into something new.

[llamaeatataco]

@llama: in 100, you said "did anyone else see this?", and later clarified that you meant a change in my argument. I think you must have misunderstood one of my posts; can you explain this in more detail please?

To be clear, this is what makes me think you are scum:
- I said (69) that you were strawmanning my argument by condensing it to "scum use smilies more than town".
- You said (73) that that was what my argument was when you stripped away the crap.
- In 100, you admit that there was another part to my argument, that you agree with.
Now, I don't think 73 could have come from a player who had actually bothered to read over my arguments again when I accused you of strawmanning me. When accused of a strawman as town, I think the natural reaction is to read the argument you are supposed to be strawmanning. Since you didn't do that, I think you are scum.

Well, I was hoping I wouldn't have to go to all of the trouble to explain this (mainly because I'm bad at that sort of thing) but I guess I'll have to.

Basically, your attack on BlackBerry was a chain:

Smilies = trying to be liked by town = worried about appearances = scum.
/
Discussing playstyle


If you break any of the main links in the chain, your argument fails.

In my own opinion discussing playstyle =/= mafia only thing to do. I do believe I've said this before, but whatever. It's a personality thing. I do it sometimes to. It's just a different style of doing things. Be completely open with the town and you save time and energy. However, I guess I did straw man you slightly. Your argument was stupid anyway, but yeah, I guess it was 'smilies and openness = scum.'

Which doesn't jive with your own stance on the issue even:

I totally agree that a great town strategy is to be very open about your thoughts on the game, because when I achieve that is easily when I play my best mafia.

So, explain to me, wtf? You make a big deal about the other half of your argument that you have pretty much explicitly stated that you do not agree with. Is it that you believe in being open about thoughts on other people, but not about thoughts on yourself?
Furthermore, BB had nothing to be open about at that point other than his own play, seeing as nothing had happened yet.

Smilies =/= trying to be liked by town. That's another link gone. Your argument is now dead, because there is no more link between actions taken and a mafia mindset. However, to nuke the dead horse, some people have gone on to say that trying to be liked by town is not a scum thing to do, because nobody (except for a third party role or two) should want to get lynched. In addition to that, being worried about appearances can be a personality thing as well, and judging by what very little I know about BB, he'd be one of those people. But that's a blind guess, and it's based a little bit on circular reasoning, so whatever.

The only part of it that's even remotely true is the very end of it: Scum is more worried about how they are seen than town. That was the end goal that your chain never reached, but at least you had the right goal. Sort of. I partially agree with this, in the same way that you do: appearances are important to town and even more important to scum. So really, I completely agree with your partial agreement with the extreme.

Now, as you can see, none of the links in your argument work. At all. So I was a little lazy and just glanced at the post to refresh my memory and the second failtastic part of your argument got lost in the shuffle.

To make things completely clear:

So, here's my question: when posting 73 in reply to 69, did you go back and reread my posts about BB? If not, why not?

I glanced at it and read like the first sentence of your first post about it because I'm lazy and your argument was obviously full of crap.

And judging by your meta, you often use smilies anyway

Good, now I don't have to look it up.

However, Jack's post gives Mallow a potential way out. It opens up all kinds of WIFOM.

Not really. He's saying the mod suggested the possibility of a miller. That's the only way out for a caught scum other than claiming Jack is fake/insane/townie trying a gambit.

@Budja: I thought I already answered this, but w/e.

It was quite obviously hopping on a bandwagon, but I can imagine a few other reasons for it. I agree with him as far as Mallow's case not making much sense, but I don't think that being confusing/wrong is worthy of a vote.

Also, Jack's being annoying, evasive and got pissed off for no discernible reason (that would be being defensive, would it not?). The last two, are in my opinion scum moves. I voted him because I didn't lose anything (We aren't anywhere near lynching time as far as I can tell) and I wanted to make it clear that I didn't like his actions. BTW, has has answered the question yet? I mean, I'm pretty sure I know what his answer will be, but I still want to win the fight.


PEOPLE KEEP POSTING AND I HAVE TO ADD MORE AND THEN THEY POST MORE WHILE I DO IT RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGEEEEE!


Anyway, Mallow pretty much read my mind apparently, however I don't believe in lynching para cops just because they're paranoid.

Scoug's thoughts parallel my own.

[llamaeatataco]

ebwop: It broke my beautiful diagram. Discussing playstyle was supposed to link to thinking about appearances.

[llamaeatataco]

No, my read is based on just that. Your defense of BB is unfounded and its ilogical coming from a townie entity that early in the game. You even decide to attack another player based on his accusations against BB. Yet some posts later you agree that the attacks can make sense. Flifflop FTL.

*facepalm*

OK, here's what I want you to do:

1. stfu
2. rtft
3. come back and talk to me when you have done that.


/rage



Seriously though...

The majority of my reads are based on gut, meta, and town/scum tells. Llama is scum for lame attempt to look town by chainsawing BB and then accepting that his accusations were unfounded.

[hypocrisy]strawman.[/hypocrisy] Really. I'm not explaining it again, screw that crap. I'm gonna go play Halo while you read my last post and try to figure it out, because I'm lazy.

[llamaeatataco]

eff Heroic. Anyway, Raivann, why is it a scum move to not want to explain something for the second or third time?

[llamaeatataco]

oh hellz nah man, I am lazy. I'm just a little overzealous in addition to being lazy, which is quite possibly the strangest combination of traits I've come across.

flailing about what?

[llamaeatataco]

Excuses? They aren't excuses, they were factors in my decision making process. I know I made a vote on Jack that was based mostly on emotion, but there were some actual reasons in there as well.

No, it was directed at Llama, your scumbuddy. In regards to his flailing.

Because that isn't a totally unbacked statement that was obviously meant to incite an emotional response.

I see no flailing here. I see myself giving valid reasons for my actions, and I see you attempting to make up-

Well shit. I do see flailing. I see you flailing for an example of me flailing. Nice move.

[llamaeatataco]

@Coug: Go read page 7, I'm pretty sure I posted them there. Too lazy to quote.

Anyway, my argument on BB is irrelevant to why I think you are scum. I'm not going to bother arguing with you about it any further; it doesn't feature significantly in my read on BB any more. Why I think you are scum is that you strawmanned that argument - after I had pointed out the same strawman - without bothering to reread my argument. Regardless of the validity of that argument, that is not a townie action.

Why is it you no longer think I'm scum? You had some pretty strong opinions on that score - including calling me a liar and saying I had completely contradicted myself - and I haven't said anything that's seemed to convince you otherwise. You unvoted me, and voted Jack for being "annoying, evasive and getting pissed off". Of those, only "evasive" seems likely to be a scumtell (though in my experience a poor one applied to Jack). Excusing your vote by saying you aren't losing anything because we're not close to lynching does not sit well with me - you are undermining your own read and vote.

Hmm. I actually like this post by you, but I still think you are 'likely scum.' Please don't try and pull things out of the situation that aren't there. You are allowed to have multiple scum reads, are you not?

Also, that was some nice BS. Yes, I did strawman you slightly, but it hardly made a difference. Besides, the 'summary' of your argument was meant more for humorous purposes than serious ones.

Regardless of the validity of that argument, that is not a townie action.

Yes, it certainly does seem to be an anti-town action in hindsight. But is it a scum action? Not at all.

So I went back and re-skimmed Jack's iso in the one game we've played together, and he was being kind of abrasive there as well. I probably should have done this immediately... (he was town in that game, by the way.)

Mallow needs to quit being lame. tbh he's surpassed Fishy as my top scum read, so I will

unvote, vote: Mallow

This is mostly due the the last page or two. Fishy's still wrong, but I don't think he's scum wrong anymore.

[llamaeatataco]

Besides, the 'summary' of your argument was meant more for humorous purposes than serious ones. [...] [switchs vote]

^ scum

^ scum

Do you see how completely unhelpful that is?

@Coug: And yet they were there. The first one is crap, but I'd say being overly defensive is a scum thing to do.

[llamaeatataco]

Questions of veracity aside, that's pretty funny.

I was just starting to miss Xvart. I take it you got good meds?

Blackberry votes Jack and pretends to be mad at him and hopes llama wagon loses steam.
And once Llama got 4 votes he makes a distancing vote on Jack.
I feel there is something off with llama's vote and Blackberry's replacement request in regards to Jack.
So to wrap up my crazy theory, the scumteam is- Llamaeatataco, Blackberry, Jack.

I'm gonna reread thread with this POV...

Good luck with that. I mean, that might almost make sense if you take those two actions completely out of context...


More rage at flameaxe for making me click twice.

I want to see Raivann's response to FA's post. Like, a lot.

[llamaeatataco]

Be back later for a real post, but for now:

Why did BB publicly ask in the thread for Jack's replacement, and not in a PM? What would he gain by publicizing that request?

[llamaeatataco]

unvote, vote: Anon, also, @Mod: I thought I was voting mallow before, but it doesn't matter now.

I'm done with this. You've been completely and baselessly antagonistic towards me since your first post, but now the outright lies have gotten to the point where you pretty much have to be scum or too stupid to use the internet.

This post basically seals it for me. So, you've called people stupid for thinking scum ARE worried about appearance, youve even voted someone for the same thing (additional scumpoints for following xvart in voting fishy and not raivann who was the first one supporting this idea) and then you ACCEPT the idea that scum ARE more worried about appearances? What gives here? Your stance on these pages its based on a lie and in a lame attempt to look town defending a vocal player.

STRAW MAN. That's what this is. Read my post with my fail diagram of a chain, (like I do believe I asked you to before) because you obviously haven't. I do believe this to be an intentional straw man (which is an actual scum move, Fishy!) just like everything else you have said.


@BB: cool.

Now, here's what I think of all you people, because other people are doing it and I want my post to look long:

Anon: Top scum atm.
BB: Leaning town.
Budja: unkown.
Fishy: 2nd scum.
Flameaxe: biggest town.
Jack: VI
Mallow: VI (for sure on this one)
mitsuru: town.
raivann: scum.
Scoug: unsure at the moment.
xvart: unkown.


Now, you might have noticed that the people on my wagon happen to be on my scum list. It's not my fault that they attacked me in such a scummy way. (I can link it because it ended! (seriously, it did end, mod just hasn't edited topic/first post yet))
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14280

Scum all attack me and are all pwned.
However, there's
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 68&start=0
(My worst game ever of anything so far)
In which the same thing happens from the town and I fail in epic proportions.

So, I just wanted to let you know that I've done this before and that it's pretty much normal. Maybe I OMGUS a lot and scum just happen to be on the receiving end and I just don't notice it.

I see the case, but I will vote llamaeatataco when the wagons on both Jack and mallowgeno lose their legs.

Is this a 'he's my third scum' or a 'sure I just want to lynch whoever' or a 'he's a backup lynch if we get close to deadline' or is it something else?

Also, Mallow = vi and Jack = Jack. Jack is 100% right on this. Two VI type players and the MAIN BANDWAGON OF THE DAY as your top 3? What about Anon, who is pulling stuff out of his ass, or Flameaxe who's calling him on it? Sure you can't think they're both on the same side?

[llamaeatataco]

Oh, also,

Mitsuru's 'lynch this guy because we learn more even though x is more scummy' comment is not good.

[llamaeatataco]

A paranoid cop realizing what they are early can be fantastic, and stop town hurting themselves. While we get next to nothing out of your lynch. Besides. Mallow's acting far more scummy than llama right now.

My bad. However, I believe you are confusing scummy with anti-town.

Because doing this seems awfully OMGUS, and he doesn't give reasons for his read. It's just OMGUS disguised as fancy labeling.

indeed.

[llamaeatataco]

OK Budja, why exactly am I your number 1 scum? Actually, I'd like to ask this of all of you except Anon, because he at least had the balls to put out there just how stupid his reason was. Oh, and Fishy. I already know Fishy's. And possibly Raivann, I get him mixed up with Fishy, I'll have to check. If you've already said it, just tell me and I'll Iso it, feel free to add on anything new since then.

[llamaeatataco]

I don't have time to make a new case at the moment,

lolobvscum. (jk) real post coming soon.

[llamaeatataco]

I don't have much of a read of mallow, and I'm not going to vote for him unless something changes. I think the sequence:
mallow: something.
someone else: you're lying. Liars are scum.
mallow: liars aren't always scum.
is rather scummy.

Are you saying the idea itself is scummy, or the fact that he said something that was true conditionally to defend himself, yet he did not provide the condition?

[llamaeatataco]

llama's 259 is goodposting (except the bit where I'm 2nd scum)

Wha? *reads post* eff. You and Raivann should be switched. Also, you're almost an unknown. I believe that your straw man argument (that I was straw manning, not you straw manning me) was incorrect, but I could see it coming from a townie. I also don't like how you slightly fudged the facts, but again, that might be an honest mistake like mine. So you'll stay either moderately strong scum or unknown until I go back and clear that up (It's not happening today, but maybe tomorrow).

More importantly. You had a single prevailing playstyle during your time here. Thats why I asked if you could show me games where you had different playstyles. And now I know why you didnt answer. Because YOU DIDNT have different playstyles and you were tying to prove your meta point based on a lie.

FA already pwned this one, but I'd like to add my support to him. A single prevailing playstyle (read as: he was an unhelpful dick as scum and as town) means that his current playstyle is different from his play previously as mafia AND town. IOW: Anon's case on him is completely stupid. Almost as stupid as his case on me. Which I will get to when I return (I hope). In like 3 hours (I hope).

the summary of it is this: Anon, you don't have reasons, you have 2 quotes and a load of bullshit.

[llamaeatataco]

Okay. You obviously think people pushing for your lynch are more likely to be scum than average and you agree you have a scummy meta. Lets try this little exercise. Who of your wagon do you think is more suspicious? The people attacking you with reasoning even if you disagree with it or the people in the background?

No. I think people who attack people in a scummy manner are more likely to be scum. I attacked fishy when he went after BB for some total stupidity, didn't I? When did I say I have a scummy meta? As for who I think is more suspicious... I think the people attacking me with reasoning (even though I don't agree with it) are less scummy than the people attacking me with obvious disdain for research and logic. That's why Fishy isn't my top scum and you are.

LLama, can I have a scum game?

It took me a while to figure out what you were saying...

http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic. ... 375e9a2965

I was lynched d1, so probably not much help. I know I have one other game where I was scum (We had a perfect win) but I can't find it. I should probably archive this or something... Anyway, I looked through like 6 pages of google and got bored, so you can find it yourself. (It was from before the switch, so I can't just go to 'view my posts.')

I don't know why I'm bothering to give this to you, tbh. You're just going to ignore everything that doesn't support 'llama is scum.'

Jack: VI

lmao

'splain this please? By the way, I meant he's VI in that he's just kind of dickish in general, not that he's incompetent.

Anyways, the core of this post is to fos me because even if you dont like llama, you dont like the way Im attacking him. Im having trouble understanding how this is natural reasoning coming from a townie perspective, its like you dont want to convince people that you think llama is scum and you prefer spreading the suspicion for wtv reason.

I dislike this and I like Fishy's response to it.

Also,

mod, you have two anon's. I doubt he's schizophrenic.

[llamaeatataco]

In any case, he's making an effort to scumhunt.

lmao. Did you actually read his posts and think about them, or did you just see they were huge walls of text?

[llamaeatataco]

So I found the game I was scum in and we got a perfect win.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&t=12970

There, that should help you much more (if you actually read it, that is. My guess is you'll go iso and pick two random quotes and claim they mean I'm scum).

[llamaeatataco]

unvote, Vote: Flameaxe This is a good lynch too.

No.

Because he wants to appear to be looking out for the town's best interest by asking for something he knows won't happen.

Or he just wanted to tell Jack he's being a dick.

Hm? Why did you want to change? You keep making all these references, super secret scum tells, and alleged drunk observations to appear to be scumhunting, but it just looks like you are trying to be active without actually saying anything of importance. Why are you not voting for Budja anymore? Did your super secret scumtell get overridden by a super secret town tell?

This would be a legitimate reason to vote BlackBerry, not his smiley use.

[llamaeatataco]

I'm down with lynching Anon or Raivann today.

Xvart is town. Is Coug on V/LA?

[llamaeatataco]

analyzing my ass.

[llamaeatataco]

ah. KK. lurklurklurk. I'm way too tired from work to do a post now, but I might do one tomorrow.

[llamaeatataco]

I think we are talking about different things here. my point is not about smilies. My point is that Llama thought people attacking BB for being so worried about his play were wrong. He went to call someone stupid to vote for you, iirc, for this. But then he said that there was some truth in this fact. Which shows flipfloping in his reasoning.

wtf?

I'll try and figure this out...

1. I called someone stupid for voting 'you' (presumably Fishy, I'm also assuming the 'he' is me) because of some fact (I'm assuming it's the whole 'scum are more worried about appearances' thing).
2. I then said that that was partially true.

Well, from a logical standpoint that makes no sense at all, because those stances are the same. It also makes no sense from a factual standpoint, because I kept my vote on Fishy until I switched to Jack, and that was some time later. Also, I didn't call anyone voting Fishy stupid.

If we switch Fishy out for BB, it makes more sense.

As for sucking up i mean to the town in general like saying "hey don't worry about me I'm all loveable smiles" whilst you slit our throats in the night.

The hell? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard (no offense). There is a huge difference between liking a player and thinking they are town.

Is this what you are referring to?

That's the only thing I could find that even remotely fits the description, and it still makes little sense. I've already explained this one

@Fishy: My stance on you didn't change at all. I was clarifying. There was one shred of truth in all of the stupidity, and I was confirming its existence. The rest of it was still stupid.

So stfu and find something original.

No. What I am saying is that when you think someone is scum you tend to avoid getting tangents in people agreeing with you. Even when I suspect you dont totally understand my case on llama.

"I'm sheeping with you so you can't think I'm scummy." That might be not quite true, but it's close enough. Basically you are telling Fishy to COMPLETELY TUNNEL ON HIS TOP SCUM PICK. Ignore EVERYONE else on the wagon. This is a scum statement. Also, I don't think anyone completely understands your 'case.' We've already explained that your two quotes aren't related and you still keep trying to push the same lies down our throats.

FA and everyone: I think its very evident how using a more friendly playstyle benefits scumbags more than townies, specially when the player we are talking about has a meta of being an ass, REGARDLESS of alignment. Just that change of playstyle that benefits him more in the scum side of the spectrum is enough to maintain my suspicions on Flameaxe.

Hey, if it benefits me as town I'll do it as town, no matter how much it would also help me as scum. Pl0x to be stop one sidedness.

And Im not even talking about him leaving his gut out of this game, who is a common denominator in his town games.

That he sucked in. He's not sucking now.

I agree that leaving scum games out of my analysis is an apparent flaw but my point was not to use his scum meta and compare it to this one. My point was to prove that he has specifically changed his playstyle for this game (already proven in his own response) and that this benefits him more if he is scum.

It benefits him as town as well. How would YOU have changed your playstyle to benefit yourself as town more than as scum?

Llama, stop being a VI. If you disagree with my posts, explain clearly why instead of using stupid phrases to prove your point. You are not even my top suspect.

I do believe we have started overusing that accusation. I'm not being a VI, I'm being exasperated because you keep repeating arguments that have

already been refuted

. I'm not going to go to the trouble to quote my previous refutation when I can just laugh at you.

Also, in the most recent example, I was making snarky comments AFTER I had already proved you wrong. Fail less please.

FA and everyone: I think its very evident how using a more friendly playstyle benefits scumbags more than townies,

Actually, that was one of the points of contention earlier on in the day. Please to read thread?

I agree that leaving scum games out of my analysis is an apparent flaw but my point was not to use his scum meta and compare it to this one. My point was to prove that he has specifically changed his playstyle for this game (already proven in his own response) and that this benefits him more if he is scum.

But you also must prove that it doesn't benefit him as town. You're halfway there! But you aren't even that far. You haven't proved any of your assertions. There's a difference between being overly friendly and just being normal. FA has gone from being a jerk to being normal. If he was like he is now and then switched to being extremely... diplomatic, then I might agree with you. But even then, being diplomatic and being friendly are different. I don't have to be a jerk when I call you on your stupidity, I just do it because it comes naturally and I'm too lazy to reword things in a friendly manner. But I could also be a jerk but not call you on your scummy moves. Just look at Jack.

I seriously dont want to turn this into a battle of quotes TM. I seriously dont.

Quotes are good. They help us see what the hell you're talking about when you make posts like 328 (you didn't use quotes there... It made me sad) and they make it harder for scum to strawman (and they keep townies from accidentally doing the same ).

ou have accepted that you have changed playstyle. Ok Nulltell. My point is that this change of playstyle benefits you more in the scum agenda. Being an ass gathers you negative attention. Not being an ass gives you a free pass. This is not tell only applied to you. I dont even remember who your top suspects are.

K it's a nulltell, now we're done with this crap. Oh wait, now we're back at it again. It benefits him as both town and scum. Sure scum doesn't want negative attention, but town should also want to

help scumhunt

. You can't do that if you're just being an ass at all times. If you think being a townie is just about not getting lynched, you're wrong. In addition, while staying out of the spotlight is helpful for scum,

catching scum is absolutely vital for town

. Do you believe FA could have done that consistently the way he played 2 years ago? Do you think the town would have listened to him? Now that I think about it, This shift actually helps town more than scum.

- Flameaxe has acepted that he has used gut before. Obv as scum he would not use gut, so this tell only applies when he is town. He is not using gut in this game. Jumping to the conclusion that this change of approach makes him more likely scum than average is not illogical at all.

You're just assuming this? Because we all know you haven't read one of his scum games. Hell, I haven't even read one of his scum games. I'm gonna go look up that one now to see if you absurdly lazy leap of logic happens to be correct.

Fishy, you should now compare my attack of his laziness to my own laziness, kthx.
...

I found Doctor Who Mafia 2, but the link was broken. Apparently Tar was in that game? At any rate, it seems to have been a large theme.

Well, that didn't work. I guess I'll take Anon's and FA's word for it? Or is there a better way to search for games than Google? I tried the forum's search, but got nothing for a half dozen different variations.

My case is there. Take it or leave it.

I do believe I just took it and had my way with it. Are you sure you want it back?

@Town: Opinion on Anon. Nao. I want an updated opinion after this last page especially.

[llamaeatataco]

Do NOT instruct people to shut up. It's bad enough you're in my top three already.

And what would be the problem with telling people to stop repeating outdated points?

[llamaeatataco]

Do NOT instruct people to shut up. It's bad enough you're in my top three already.

And what would be the problem with telling people to stop repeating outdated points?

That's an entirely different matter from what I just brought up with you. If a player is failing to take recent posts into account, then by all means tell him to do so. To tell someone to shut up, however, is anti-information.

Indeed. The messages I intended to convey was 'don't do this nonsense anymore' not 'never speak again.'

Anon is prob town.
My reads haven't changed. I think the best case made so far is xvarts on BB.

Does this mean that you agree with Anon's case on Flameaxe?

I like Xvart's case on BB, but my gut is saying BB is town. At any rate, it's the 'best' one so far other than FA's.

I like Anon as town. However, Mallow's last post ups my scum read on him. I don't care if the wagon isn't going anywhere. Vote: mallow Llama is going up too. His tone is becoming more aggressive and defensive.

I'm assuming this means you have a gut town read on Anon? Also, I'm not going up. I'm certainly getting a little pissy, but it's more than called for. I have a hard time imagining someone not becoming at least a little frustrated with Anon. Lynching someone because they are irritated with a person is silly. Even more so if that person gave them cause to be irritated. It kind of seems like you just want to set yourself up to lynch me whenever, either today or tomorrow, but you don't want to commit to it with a real scumtell. Does anyone else get that impression?

Of the people who seem to be getting some attention:
- I see little reason to think mallow, Jack or Flameaxe is scum.
- I don't like Anon's cases. The one on llama feels like he hasn't really read and thought about the llama/me/BB/etc. interaction hard, and the one on Flameaxe is based on very old meta, and Flame not making gut reads yet in this game. These are scumtells of a kind - both seem marginally more likely from scum - but in both cases there are perfectly good protown explanation for Flame's actions, and the point seem nearly null. They're just not the kind of things I can see someone basing a read off.
- I didn't like llama's play near the start, and have no real read on his recent posts.
- BB: I'm a bit skeptical about his claim to have been trying to look vulnerable by talking about an unusual playstyle. But generally my gut says he's town; his posts read like he believes what he's saying.

-I agree with you about FA, Mallow to a certain extent and Jack seems to be following his normal meta.

-My thoughts exactly. At least someone read what I wrote.
-Your loss. Nothing here to say that hasn't been said a hundred times.
-Actually, I kind of thought from the beginning that BB was doing something to garner votes, especially when the wagon took off and from his reaction.

It wasnt about the bolding, in this case, that was fine. Just in the middle of a paragraph I might miss it.

I do that sometimes as well, but I'll try not to in the future.[/quote]

Anyway, that seems to be about it, except for one last issue: Things are going nowhere.
Raivann and Anon seem dead-set on their absurd notion that FA is scum.
Mallow and Coug want to get Jack for their own reasons (being a jerk mostly).
Budja and Fishy are seeking my lynch for a variety of reasons.
Mitsuru wants to lynch Mallow for his erratic behavior.
Jack is OMGUS voting Coug (or the other way around, too lazy to go and check )
and FA is going after Raivann.

The point of all of that is... I got halfway through it before I realized it was like the last votecount, but more full of fail and didn't want to erase all my work. Anyway, We're at a stalemate.

unvote, vote: Raivann

Because while Anon's made a stupid case once, Raivann's gone with insanity twice, and neither time has he been the 'main driving force' AKA 'the one who gets all the attention.' I'd just as soon lynch him as Anon, and I want to end this stalemate (preferably with a lynch of one of those two people).

[llamaeatataco]

This is a completely irrelevant fact, but I think it's funny that the people I respect as players all find Raivann scum and I don't give a damn about the opinions of those that aren't voting for him.

Except maybe for Xvart, but he really has no excuse after FA's post.

So basically - " I'll post a whole bunch of stuff that everyone will skim over then I'll vote your for scumhunting, and I'll throw in some mafia lingo like omgus, hypothehicals, and strawmanning, Yeah that should be good."

So I actually did skim over his post to save it for last until I saw this...

Way to have the opposite effect of what you intended.



Raivann needs to be the lynch today. Since FA hasn't come back, I'll cover his AtE:

Ugh! I can't believe I'm gonna get lynched day 1 again!
Ya know whats funny Is that I actually tried to play better in this game
Oh well Fantasy football starts soon.

First you complain about your history of getting lynched d1, to try and link your elimination to emotional distress for you. Then you attempt to make us wish you no emotional harm by trying to bring up an off topic subject that others will share an interest in.

At least, if I were a psychology major, that's how I'd say it. As myself, I'd say 'you're trying to make us feel sorry for you.'

I'm not even going to go over anything else on Raivann. He should have been dead long ago, but FA's post just kind of shows you everything, all at once, so you have no excuse.

I really dislike this wagon.

Indeed. Why don't you like it? I mean, it's an alright wagon. It isn't obnoxious, and it goes to sleep at a decent hour. It does its share of the chores, and it buys its own beers.


Seriously, why don't you like it? Do you disagree with FA's points? Which ones specifically? Why do you believe Raivann is town? Do you think he has made an honest and effective effort to scumhunt? If you want to continue to not vote Raivann, I would like a response from you about each of FA's main points against him.

As do I. Raivann reads as extremely townie to me. Llama, Mallow, and possibly Budja are the scum team for me.

You need to explain all of these reads, in detail, before someone comes back and hammers Raivann.

I would also like to humbly ask you to read FlameAxe's post. I don't honestly believe that anyone could read through that and still find Raivann to be 'extremely townie.'
You can completely forget about me having you as a town read. You are quite obviously ignoring all of the perfectly valid points against him, and apparently trying to pretend he has done 'townie' things. Same as for Jack, read it and respond. Show us why you believe him to be wrong.

I don't really think you're Raivann's scumbuddy, that's only because of the too-scummy-to-be-scum fallacy.

@Raivann: you posted without answering my questions. And when you did answer them, you address one small and irrelevant factual inaccuracy (me saying you called Budja scum, rather than called something he did scummy). Trying to win an argument, rather than actually think about my case or persuade me you are town.

QFT.

unvote, vote:Raivann

Diescumdie.


Possible scumbuddies for Raivann: Jack and Mitsuru, but mostly because they both refuse to hammer him

for no reason

.


Preview edit:

@Fish- I think I made my reads and reasons why clear.

No. You didn't. FA just went to all the trouble to post a huge list of all of the times where you HAVEN'T made your reasons clear, and in fact detailed every single one of your posts up to his, showing how you didn't clarify in any of them save once. And that time hardly counts. I don't think you've shown us valid reasons since then, or even responded to ANY of FA's pbpa.
It's kind of frustrating for someone to put effort into a game, only to be completely ignored by the scummy person in question, and then to have other townies claim that this person is TOWN?!? [/AtE]

[llamaeatataco]

I know. I just wanted to make your heart stop for a second. That is, if you cared about this game at all. I noticed that Mitsuru posted and has now logged off, and he hasn't even at least explained his reads. Way to be more cooperative than Jack. Also, Raivann still hasn't responded to any points against him.

[llamaeatataco]

Budja has posted very little game content. Llama is cracking continuously under pressure. Mallow I've explained my vote on already.

I'm assuming your evidence of this is Raivann's repeated assertions that I've been 'flailing'? I want to see quote evidence of this now. As for Budja, you're correct. But at least he hasn't posted a bunch of useless junk to disguise his lack of content. In fact, a quick iso-meta of him shows that he's contributed at about this level of content at least once before in British Comedy Mafia. (he was town.) So you have a scumtell contradicted by meta and a load of crap. You still have yet to explain your town read on Raivann. Also, what link is there between Mallow and I? Is it just that Mallow is an easy target, and Raivann is already attacking me, so you might as well throw your lot in with your scumbuddy?

Yes, I am implying a Mitsuru/Raivann scumteam. His actions make no sense at all, and hers don't make sense as town. They might make sense as newscum.

@llama, 407 second line - what post are you referring?

His huge pbpa where he details exactly why Raivann is scum. The one that you didn't read.
I'd hesitate to call something scummy that you haven't even read. I think pbpa's are awesome, but I'm too lazy to do one myself. At least, I have been so far. I might do one just for lulz on Mitsuru tomorrow if/when Raivann flips scum.

completely offtopic comment: Holy crap Coug is a guy?

Llama, Mitsuru are not scummy for employing this gambit. It actually gives Llama a few town points.

Actually, I kind of feel like a jerk for doing it. I mean, certainly it would only trip up a person who isn't paying attention, and it would be their own fault, but still...

re: alleged drunk obs - what i meant was all of your observations/"cases"/votes always have some quantifier like being drunk, "wanting" to change votes for some unknown reason, super secret scumtells that always work, etc. Youe votes and cases are justified by nonsense.

Yeah, super secret scumtells are annoying. I'm just going to accept it as a reason for BB's vote, but I'm certainly not going to follow it. IMO it's possible for it to be genuine, so I'm just ignoring it as a tell for now. As for the rest of it, it's not quite true. I do believe BB has had a good point or two. His votes and cases are only justified by nonsense twice, and once it was completely obvious that it was nonsense, he even admitted it in the post. Are you really suggesting he thought that BB believed his drunk intuition to be reliable?

Two things give me pause for thought. The speed of the wagon, and to a lesser extent the VT claim. Neither of these are typical of scum wagons.

1. FA posted a pbpa in which he detailed exactly why Raivann was scum. All the votes followed that, because it put everything in one place and kind of hard to ignore.
2. I actually claim VT more often as scum than I do a power role.

Basically, on a review I don't know what to think. It's very easy to get a scumread on Raivann, but I'm not sure it's actually right.

unvote, vote: llama

This does not seem to make sense. It's like you noticed Raivann was in serious danger and then decided that you didn't really want your vote there, so you moved it back to me. I'm guess I've just always been your backup pick? Do you still believe I am scum?


Basically, Mitsuru needs to ACTUALLY explain her reads. I want specific reasons why she believes Raivann is town, and I want specific quote evidence or iso numbers for posts where I 'cracked under pressure.'

I don't expect to actually get this, because I believe Mitsuru is just sheeping completely with Raivann. Raivann doesn't have any evidence, so Mitsuru won't have anyone to steal it from.


Actually, the wagon hasn't been all that fast. FA voted, I switched my vote (I had already expressed my suspicions of him, I do believe) and Fishy switched. FA did his pbpa, we picked up Budja and Coug. Really the only bit that was fast was Budja and Coug coming on, but that was to be expected.

[llamaeatataco]

(quote fixed because it was bothering me)

If you break any of the main links in the chain, your argument fails.

Calling people's English bad. General insults. I define this as cracking under pressure. There's no real need to call people's arguments stupid or English bad in my experience.
The fact that you react with this increases my scum read on you.

How does the quote that you selected indicate alignment of any sort? It was a statement of a basic truth: If you can't link a persons actions to a scum mindset, your argument is invalid. It's like doing proofs in geometry.

"Calling people's English bad." If your English is bad, it's bad. It's not a scum move to correct someone if their English is unreadable. I do believe you are referring to my impression of Mallow, correct me if I am wrong. Certainly it's kind of a rude thing to do, but is it something scum would do?

"General insults." I'm an insult-happy person. My job requires me to deal with stupid people every day, and it kind of has effected my level of patience, and my readiness to insult people. Sue me. Meta me. I'm pretty sure I've done this as town in... Every single one of my games.

Yes, there is a need if the argument really is stupid. The smilie case was stupid. I'm not afraid to say it. If you would take the 2 minutes or so it would require to meta me, you would see that I do this no matter what my alignment is, whether or not I'm 'under pressure.' Go read ISO 1 of me. I call Raivann's 'case' stupid in my first real post in the game. I'm under no pressure at all. Your 'scumtell' isn't even what you say it is. I'm not cracking under pressure, I'm like this all the time. To borrow from another players signature: I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out. But I'm not so much bitter or cold, just a cruel asshole. deal.

You also seem awfully determined to make a big deal out of my town read on Raivann and asking him about his role when I thought he was dead. Why are you so determined to get a scum read out of this? It was just a role question. Like anyone would ask when someone dies.

How am I making a big deal out of you asking about his role? The only thing I'm making a big deal out of is the fact that you have twice now completely avoided giving any reasoning at all for your town read on him. Now, considering how completely scummy he's been, I find this a little suspicious. I'm not 'determined to get a scum read' I'm confounded by your town read, and your reluctance to explain it. You're being as stubborn and unhelpful as Jack.

@Fishy: It's pretty clear that he's been scummy... I didn't really think it was a big deal that you unvoted, I just wanted to float the idea.

What is it that makes me think he's scum? Constant OMGUSING, a nearly complete lack of real scumhunting, staying out of the spotlight and finally, pretending that he's been completely right and we're silly for not following him. I can't see town doing ANY of those things. I can't see a competent player doing any of them regardless of alignment, but incompetent scum might.

Mod, I'm not going to have computer access for the rest of today, tomorrow and probably the first half of Sunday.

[llamaeatataco]

Also, I've lost track of how many times I've wanted to type LlamaFluff instead of llamaeatataco.

I'm now wondering whether this is a good thing or not... Is it?

As for Raivann, he might have been scummy at first, and I thought so too, but now he's asking questions, responding to accusations and trying to scumhunt. So what if he doesn't post huge walls of text? He was scummy at first, but isn't now. He shouldn't be lynched.

No. This is not an explanation. What 'scumhunting' has he done other than ask a couple of half assed questions, chainsaw everyone that has attacked him and... Actually, that's all he's really done.

Oh wait, he's also completely misrepresented the facts a bit.

Well, 26 in iso was good. It was, admittedly a completely obvious conclusion, but should you really be considering his points against you as 'good scumhunting'?

He's had a lot of fake scumhunting in there, I mean, every other post he uses some random quote to claim someone is scum (hyperbole ftw) and on the other ones he makes obvious inferences, a good portion of which have already been made. But, I ask you, specifically which posts do you think are examples of his 'good scumhunting'? You don't have to quote, just post iso numbers. I'm not giving up until I have specifics. You don't have them, so I'm going to be waiting a while.


About the Xvart/BB thing: Town points for Xvart. Scum points for BB. He's not past Raivann yet (He'd have to claim scum to get past Raivann in my eyes) but I'm liking him less as town.

Anyway, we're still pretty much in the same boat as we were when I left. Lynch choices still the same for me: Raivann and Anon, possibly Mitsuru. But Nobody is liking Mitsuru as a lynch option. I might move that pbpa up if I get bored, but don't count on it.

[llamaeatataco]

Mitsuru, are you implying that scum never contributes anything at all? That they never try to appear to be scumhunting?

I will say that 26 is a good post. I agree for the most part with what he said.

about 36... Do you habitually use any experience altering chemical combination? How about just trying it out for the first time?

No, it was directed at Llama, your scumbuddy. In regards to his flailing.

Baseless accusations = contributing now? When did this happen?
How was he keeping his opinion from the rest of us? How was he sharing? He was repeating (for the nth time) his assertion that I was flailing, but he wasn't contributing anything to the game at all, with the question or his explanation of it. Also, I don't recall him ever explaining exactly why I was 'flailing,' but he could easily steal your 'tells' if he needs to, just to give the semblance of a real argument.

So Raivann, did you ever actually explain your flailing assertion? I might have missed it, my catch-up read was kind of rushed, so I won't start hatin' on you until you've confirmed the non-existence of such a post by completely ignoring me. Again. Just like 95% of all points against you.

I thought his reply, though slightly exaggerated, was a town one.

O RLY? This has been answered, but we can go over it again.

1. Raivann is repeating an assertion that has never been backed up with anything, along with making a new one.
2. FA calls him on not explaining his.
3. Raivann then enters rage/sarcasm mode, where he proceeds to exaggerate a statement that was completely called for, and then misattribute the exaggerated sequence of events to motivations that seem to be made up on the spot.
4. You call this behavior townish.

Do you know what Raivann is? He's a wannabe demagogue. How is this town in any way at all?

Also, you gave the wrong ISO number. Just sayin'. (It's 38)

[llamaeatataco]

...Never mind, Anon should be our d2 lynch.

His catches on llama jokey style hypocrisy and omgus reads are good, though.

Here is the post where Mitsuru supposedly 'catches' my 'hypocrisy:'

:I find it hard to believe that you really don't think I read your post at all... Especially when I quoted it to you. You = Liar. Liars = scum. Therefore, you = scum.

Oh wait, that was someone else who said that, so it doesn't have that ironic effect.


Jokey style =/= trying to be liked by town. Jokey style = personality. End of story.

This is the post that stands out to me as scummy, when compared with this:

but people are so much more fun when they're slightly irritated...

and this:

Because I'm worried that I might actually be insane. Did you know that that eliminates a whole slew of career opportunities?

He claims a jokey style makes you seem like you're trying to be liked by town, which in turn makes you scummy. Well then, those above two quotes make him scummy.

Also, why do you think Mallow is town?

Mitsuru misread my 'does not equal' sign. There was no hypocrisy. If you actually read the damn thread, even the quotes in the post you are praising, even my next post where I explain this very clearly to Mitsuru, you would know that it was a misunderstanding.

Dammit, I keep thinking of Mitsuru as a he. And Coug as a she. If I mess up y'all's pronouns, it's not on purpose. Anyway, where was I?

She didn't even mention it in her summary of why she thinks I'm scum. Why? Because she's paying attention to the game at least.


...

That was just the most important thing that jumped out at me, now for deconstruction from the top down:

llamaeatataco: you see my problem started with the camellid eating mexican food was (is) his entrance to the game defending BB and attacking people for attacking him. This has also been discussed by centuries now, see my other posts for reference. All the posterior debate is really stupid thx to llama's refusal of making a solid argument. In my experience, Ive definitely see more scumbags defending people for nulltells to gain town credit, dont annoy a very vocal player, which was basically the premise of my llamehate. He spitting I dont make sense using irony and tell me to STFU and RTFT as a wayout really didnt help him. Now that I reread him and I see him voting Jack for being a "scummy dick" and mallow for "being lame", two of my town reads, I think this guy is very likely to flip scumbag.

?!?!? Let's see... First, please spend less time trying to be witty and more time trying to be intelligible. This is very hard to read.
1. If you have a problem with a person attacking someone when they attack someone else in a scummy manner, you're doing something very wrong.
2. How have I refused to make a solid argument? If anyone, it's you/Raivann doing this. I do believe that most of the time I've been pretty good about quoting and then explaining exactly why the quoted selection is scummy. I might be a little unclear, but at least I try. This is specious rhetoric. (side not: The word 'specious' is actually really fun to use/say/type) If you mean my lack of a pbpa on you/Raivann then I'd be happy to make one on you. FA's on Raivann covered everything I saw and then some, so I don't see a point in making a second, inferior one. One on you can certainly be arranged, if that is indeed what you want. Maybe you just want a summary post? I can do that too, but it won't help you any. It'll just make you look worse...
3. Wut? So as town, I should sit by and watch scum/townies rip apart a fellow townie over something stupid? I sure as hell hope you're not town, because if so, we're in trouble.
4. Wut x 9001? I have no idea what you are trying to say here. This is an offense to English as a language.

dont annoy a very vocal player, which was basically the premise of my llamehate. He spitting I dont make sense using irony and tell me to STFU and RTFT as a wayout really didnt help him.

please Re-type this section, I'll try and answer what I can figure out:

'Scum don't annoy vocal players, that's why I attacked llama [howeverthehellwedostrikeoutshere]for shitty reason[/strikeout].' Way to slip 'hey look at me, I'm town for doing this' and 'My case sucked because I only did it to look town' in to your analysis of another player.

'He spitting I dont make sense using irony' ?!? Another llama joke (these would actually be humorous if I could understand the rest of your post) and then saying that you either don't understand or don't use irony. I don't understand the point your trying to make here either way.

" tell me to STFU and RTFT as a wayout really didnt help him." Ah, acronyms. Pity I could sort of decode your message anyway, they would have helped more elsewhere. I told you to shut up and go read the thread in this post:

No, my read is based on just that. Your defense of BB is unfounded and its ilogical coming from a townie entity that early in the game. You even decide to attack another player based on his accusations against BB. Yet some posts later you agree that the attacks can make sense. Flifflop FTL.

*facepalm*

OK, here's what I want you to do:

1. stfu
2. rtft
3. come back and talk to me when you have done that.


/rage



Seriously though...

The majority of my reads are based on gut, meta, and town/scum tells. Llama is scum for lame attempt to look town by chainsawing BB and then accepting that his accusations were unfounded.

[hypocrisy]strawman.[/hypocrisy] Really. I'm not explaining it again, screw that crap. I'm gonna go play Halo while you read my last post and try to figure it out, because I'm lazy.

Now, you're obviously trying to make a point about this post... Maybe it was that telling other players to shut up is bad, like Coug already said? Or are you trying to say that I was using that instead of responding to your points? Well, if you look at my post right before that (ISO 13) you can see that I already responded to your points

before you even said them.

Isn't that creepy? I'll tell you all the truth: I'm psychic! It's not just that you brought up points that had already been refuted, or that you were too lazy to read through the big post where said refutation happened. I'm psychic, like legit. [/sarcasm] So how was my exasperation with you scummy?

Now that I reread him and I see him voting Jack for being a "scummy dick" and mallow for "being lame", two of my town reads, I think this guy is very likely to flip scumbag.

1. Oh yeah, because voting people for being scummy is a scum move now.
2. Mallow was being lame. Was he a town read for you at that point? He wasn't for me.

Basically, you're grasping at straws in trying to come up with reasons for me to be scum. Now you're saying I'm scum for suspecting people that you have on your 'town list.'

mallowgeno: Town VI read. Overall one liner but reluctance to join wagons, showing no malice in his play. Reaction to Jack cop claim was townish. Latest posting have been less reliable but still nothing scummy. Gets town points for being attacked with weak accusations = easy target. When he comes back I want him to explain his stances on iso 11.

Meh. Nothing that hasn't been said before/is extremely obvious, but nothing wrong either.

His catches on llama jokey style hypocrisy and omgus reads are good, though.

I missed the OMGUS reads part. This has already been explained with Meta evidence. She also pointed out your OMGUS reads, as I recall. Are you saying that that was also town, and that you are scum? Or does this tell only apply to people you want to lynch?

As for the bit on Mitsuru: Yeah pretty much. Couple this with the reluctance to explain her reads, and the pathetic explanations that follow... So many people to lynch, so little time.

Anyway, Mitsuru, it'd be really cool if you came back, explained the discrepancy and then hammered Raivann. Kthx.

[llamaeatataco]

dammit, I messed up the quotes. Should have put "I" instead of "Me."

[llamaeatataco]

I think I'm going to
unvote, vote: Blackberry

I don't have a scumread on Raivann any more.

wtf? You just said that you found Raivann to be highly scummy at the top of the page... Wasn't it you saying you weren't feeling the Raivann scum thing just last page? I might be wrong, but you seem a little flip-floppy.

Why are you lining up lynches?

Well, Raivann has my top spot for being scum, and he's at least a viable lynch for today. Tomorrow my first action is probably going to be to vote Anon. Why? He's my next top suspect after Raivann. Is there a problem with letting him know that? I thought today's lynch was a done deal. However, with all the Fishy-Flopping...

Mitsuru's gender is actually easy to keep straight if you've played Persona 3 before

I knew my lack of jrpg experience would screw me eventually.

You are missing the core of the accusation. You said that there was some truth in that scum do worry about appearances. However you think/thought BB is town for having this playstyle. Mitsuru thought you had this jokey/ironic playstyle too. So you saying that this isnt scummy when you said there was some truth on this, yeah, thats pretty much hypocrisy in my book.

Two main issues here:

1: Yes, a person as scum tends to worry more about appearances than the same person as town. However, because some people are more worried about appearances as a personality thing, some people think more about appearances as town than others do as scum. It's like your alignment is a modifier for a base number. The base number is how self conscious you are in general. (Yes I just compared life to an rpg. I am a nerd.) I see BB as one of those people who has a high base.

2. I never accepted, in in manner at all that being a joker means you are worried about appearances (Unless I was drunk...). I have said this at least 3 times that I can think of specifically, and I probably said it a great deal more than that. You are either making things up, or you are just too lazy to read the thread. If you read my 'big post' that I have already accused you of-

holy crap. Fishy, I know how you feel, and I apologize.

-not reading before, then-

And yeah, not reading that post was kind of a dick move on my part. I'll try not to in the future

-you would know that your point is completely stupid.

I really missed the part where BB became confirmed town. How do you know BB is a fellow townie?

Irrelevant. Town has a duty to point out flawed arguments no matter who is getting attacked. Stop the red herrings please.

What was so scummy dick on Jack and what was scummy lame on Mallow?

Read the thread. It's in the posts where I vote them I believe. If not then I fail, and you need to look at the posts before.

Believe it or not, this is a very good scumtell in my book. People that have weak reasons to suspect people I think are town are usually scum. Simple logic here.

1. You are wrong.
2. They were not weak. You're killing yourself here. How do you know they were weak if you don't know what the reasons were? (pwned, fine sir!)

When did she also pointed my OMGUS?

My bad. She was talking about Mallow, and it coincided with you calling FA scum and I confused you with Raivann and bad reading was bad.

I will post again in a couple of hours. Must leave now. Raivann must die. Fishy needs to explain his flipflipping.

[llamaeatataco]

Fishy, 475 and 589. What gives?

[llamaeatataco]

EBWOP: 489. This thread has lots of time travel.

[llamaeatataco]

Glad to see you're putting effort into this game. TBH, it was pretty obvious you switched onto BB to save your own sorry ass.

[llamaeatataco]

Well, that's typical of his play this whole game. Has he supported anything very well?

[llamaeatataco]

And just because misunderstanding seems to happen a lot here:

Using the term 'wifom' is not at all equal to actually using wifom to distract the town. It isn't scummy either.

[llamaeatataco]

D:<

...

vote:Anon

Also, I dislike Xvart's 519. Way to come down too hard on BB there. Seriously though, BB explicitly stated that we were pretending Jack had night abilities. Why would you purposefully make yourself look stupid in this way?

How would a PGO shoot Jack if he had no abilities to move around? Why are we pretending that he wasn't a VT when the mod said he was?

It's like he wanted to use both facts against BB but forgot that they contradict each other. (btw they were both weak anyway).

Mostly because of Fishy's behavior striked me as scum. And reading through their posts, Stranger and Fishy don't comment much about the other two. And Flameaxe straight out voted those two at the very beginning as random votes (not really much to go off of, just could be a good distancing technique).

You're right they don't comment about each other much. Random voting both of your scumbuddies at the beginning of the game is a terrible distancing technique. Also, it's struck.

I find it suss that BB posts the correct role-name but not the correct role-info.

What is this I don't even

[llamaeatataco]

Sometimes people talk about stuff that isn't really relevant to the game. Are you surprised? I could find a half dozen instances in this thread alone.

[llamaeatataco]

Perhaps Mallow sees dead people?

[llamaeatataco]

I don't see why you wouldn't, Coug.
I'm just going to lurk for a bit more and see how this plays out. Actually, I'm going to be

v/la from Thursday to Monday

but I don't really want to say anything. I seem to have the remarkable talent to derail progress. I do have some comments, but I want the scummy people to commit to their scumminess and the town people to not second guess themselves while I'm gone.

[llamaeatataco]

Why wouldn't you speculate on the setup? Sure it isn't very helpful, but it's not like it's going to help scum.

[llamaeatataco]

I like my vote on Anon even more now. Pretending you're king of the town is one thing, but this is ridiculous.

mallowgeno is TOWN for this vote. Whoever is voting him after this post of extreme protowness gets 100 scum points.

Hellz yeah, actually. Scum would know who was dead.

Oh wait, it's such an obvious fail it'd be hard to legitimately see it as an accident.

What? You thought Jack's claim was real?

This is an important question: WHO thought Jack's claim was real?

I sure didn't. I thought it might be possible, but I figured it was a reaction test. Mainly because I've seen him do something similar before.

Why do you think there are TWO killing TEAMS? And why in the same post you come up with theories that contradict this stance?

The arsonist counts has his own team. It's an expression, deal with it. As for the second half... Why do you think he said 'used to think'? Think before posting please.

If Llama is scum Coug is definitely SCUM with him. Please Coug, explain the scum MOTIVATION in his Jack vote. I dare you.

?!? 'He thinks some guy I think is scummy has been shifting up and down on the scum scale, he must be scum.' As for motivation, There isn't much. But it's certainly anti-town to tunnel on someone so bad that you vote without reading the thread, and the arsonist wouldn't know the scum's kill choice.

Xvart is RIGHT about BB. Llama is WRONG. And still scummy as hell.

Evidence whenever you're ready.




Also, my V/LA is real, I'm going on vacation. What's wrong with a realistic self-image? I do tend to derail conversations, constructive or not.

[llamaeatataco]

Hmm. I think I'm going to vote Mallow when I post again in about 15-20 minutes.

[llamaeatataco]

@Xvart: What I've posted has been rather tunnel-ish, but I'm just kind of that way. Go read some of my other games or something if you want. Also, quit the trolling. You know exactly why I voted him in the first place, even if you don't agree with it.

unvote, vote: Mallow

As for my analysis of the last couple of pages... I'm doing it tomorrow. I have absolutely nothing else to do tomorrow, and I'm really tired right now.

[llamaeatataco]

So... BB is claiming doctor then?

Anyway, the bit that intrigued me around page 22-23 was the Mallow/Fishy/Coug interaction. Coug suddenly goes after Mallow and Fishy then 'chainsaws.' I don't particularly buy this scumtell, but the fact that he rushed to Mallow's aid (As did Anon when he posted, the buddying was definitely OVER 9000!) is the main part. I'd definitely by a Mallow/Confucius team, especially with Con's (I'm calling him that now) attack on FA. When I first read BB's 'trap' I thought it was fail, but a protown move none the less. After reading back over the area around where he sprung it, I no longer think it's a fail. I'm even more convince Mallow is scum.

@Con: How is drawing negative attention to yourself by irritating everyone and in general making them more likely to lynch you a scum move? Explain this to me, it might be entertaining.

I think that FA continuing to defend his decision on Raivann is a town move. It seems like he genuinely believed Raivann was scummy and the irritation with the flip is overriding the common sense of 'it doesn't matter anymore, he's dead and he was town.'

Anyway... Mallow and Con for scum, BB and FA for town.

[llamaeatataco]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot the Vig. If the mafia shot at FA last night, then Jack was vigged. This makes more sense than scum killing him, I admit.

[llamaeatataco]

Triple post!

@Xvart:

Trolling? I really had no clue why you were voting for Anon, other than what appears to be a personal grudge in this game; but after rereading your ISO with respect to Anon I assume your vote is based on you believe him to be blatantly lying and scummy case building? Is that correct?

A grudge? Dude, he was my second pick after Raivann d1. I picked him for precisely the same reasons I suspected Raivann: A complete lack of content and the pretensions of actually scumhunting. There was some blatant lying, but it was mostly the complete and total worthlessness of his case, and the lack of support for anything he says.

[llamaeatataco]

Heh, I failed. I guess one out of three isn't that bad for me. I definitely should have followed my hate for illogical cases and just pushed for lynch after lynch until it worked (And gone after Anon d2).

Or just been clairvoyant and picked both mafia and arsonist d1. That would have worked as well.