Mini 987: Alternative Vote Mafia- Ovah!

[Jack]

Ok, I submitted my initial ballot. Should I post it here too or are we keeping these things private? We should get a townie consensus on this (I'm a townie myself).

[Jack]

Any reason?

You being scum?

Hello Ellibereth, I don't know if you noticed but Pom already claimed town:

Whoa! Town here too!

I suggest you move your vote to someone who hasn't claimed town...like maybe yourself.

[Jack]

vollkan is right as far as reading the rules goes, zach is right as far as the game goes. Although I don't think scum are particularly lazy early day 1.

[Jack]

I think that in a game with unusual mechanics like this everyone would read the rules (equally) carefully, and therefore

not

reading the rules carefully would be a nulltell. Thoughts?

I think this post is a nulltell.

unvote, vote:Pomegranate

[Jack]

I think that in a game with unusual mechanics like this everyone would read the rules (equally) carefully, and therefore

not

reading the rules carefully would be a nulltell. Thoughts?

I think this post is a nulltell.

unvote, vote:Pomegranate

I dont get it... if the post is a nulltell.... then why vote pom?

Think about it...it's a good reason to vote pom.

[Jack]

I will cast my ballot soon (with pom at the top) but I'm not sure where to put the rest of you...

[Jack]

WAIT FOR VERY CLOSE TO DEADLINE BECAUSE

YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT

That's silly (for somewhat obvious reasons).

[Jack]

Zach, why do you have to seem so much like scum jumping a quick, early wagon?

Vote: Zach

.

He doesn't at all. Especially in this format.

[Jack]

No point in beating around the bush here, let's just lynch pom. All in favor say aye.

[Jack]

WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE VOTING



AAAARRRRRRGH




Oh, hi.

Why? I'm not quite sure what I did.

And what did I do?

Silly Pom. You don't have to

do

anything.

What?

I post and everyone dies?

Awesome power.

I don't think Pom is scummy enough to lynch.

And what is it you

do

think?

[Jack]

Scum don't have a strong incentive to read carefully. That's like saying students have a strong incentive to do their home work early, because they get a bad grade if they procrastinate.

[Jack]

Scum don't have a strong incentive to read carefully. That's like saying students have a strong incentive to do their home work early, because they get a bad grade if they procrastinate.

But that's true: students do have a strong incentive to do their homework early because procrastinating will get them a bad grade.

No, it's a weak incentive. Evidence: everyone procrastinates

[Jack]

Town: Volkan, Jack, Shattered, Button
Scum: Pom

What was the purpose of posting that list of ratings?

Now who hasn't been reading carefully? Remember how we vote this game...

[Jack]

Official Ballot:

1. Pomegranate
2. Anon
3. Jason
4. The button man
5. Shattered viewpoint
6. Zachrulez
7. Vollkan
8. Elli

This is a valid ballot.

I don't think most of it matters though. Maybe the second one matters.

[Jack]

Active lurking, and town claim lacked pizzaz.

[Jack]

I thought it was tomorrow too...

[Jack]

vollkan is right as far as reading the rules goes,

zach is right as far as the game goes. Although I don't think scum are particularly lazy early day 1.

[Jack]

"Quote yourself calling someone scummy or town."

Not many people have really been scummy or town. Pom is the only person I'd call scummy. Not sure I'd really call anyone town.

[Jack]

Let's just lynch pom.

[Jack]

Pom is gut scummy. Vollkan is over analyzing a low activity game.

[Jack]

Nothing in particular.

[Jack]

If you'd read the game you'd know the answer to that question.

I want it in your words; stop avoiding my question.

I'm suspicious of Jason, and I'm still waiting for a response to a question I posed to him on the previous page.

Nice try.

Not really.

[Jack]

ScumJason is lurking because town is focusing on Pom.

We should lynch him instead.

His last post that I can see is sunday the 13th.

[Jack]

Ooh, he just posted in little italy.

[Jack]

msutils is outdated I guess.

[Jack]

not really, my post was taken from the point of my last post. at that time I didnt seem to sure on Pom. things progressed between my previous last post and the post I just made. I think she is scum, as is Jack and Anon. I was actually already in the process of writing my catch up when I was called out on my posts in other games.

3 scum in a 9 player game? Well I'll call that mistake a towntell actually. Let's lynch pom.

[Jack]

One liners are pro town.

[Jack]

Sorry I put you as my #2 anon, that was a while back.

TBM push on jason is interesting to me too.

[Jack]

The no kill is a blessing.

vollkan, why did you throw away your #1 vote on zachrulez?

[Jack]

VOTE: Pome:

Should have lynched her yesterday.

Yes. But people need to stop using the vote tags when they don't want their vote to have SUPER CAPS LOCK EMPHASIS. Or maybe you did want that.

[Jack]

vollkan, why did you throw away your #1 vote on zachrulez?

Zach was my #1 suspect, for reasons stated. Since it's preferential voting, by definition I wasn't throwing my vote away.

What do you mean by the last sentence? It's false. 1st place is 1 of the tiebreakers, and doing it that way allows you to slide anon in over pom in the middle of the list. Although you ended up voting for jason anyway I guess.

[Jack]

This game is hard.

[Jack]

I have no enthusiasm for this game. I am town. Elli does. He is scum. <--Good reasoning

[Jack]

Well, this game is seriously hard. Not having real wagons and people being put at l-1 etc just puts a giant roadblock on the game.

Let's lynch pom. Elli doesn't have a guilty clearly.

TBM is the other scum.

[Jack]

Actually skimming ISO's and recalling pyp II. Pom is one of those horribly scummy players like haylen. And Zachrulez is clearly scum.

Ballot:
Zachrulez
other people

[Jack]

Just making sure I'm up-to-date.

That doesn't make sense. You can assume that if a player, especially an active player, is not questioning you, then they don't have any outstanding issues with you.

I normally assume such; but since you basically fucked up your own question, I was being nice and giving you a chance to ask me something if you wanted to. Forgive me for trying to help.


vollkan,

TBM

, get a frigging room. You're

honestly

coming across, to me, as two

scumbuddies

arguing incessantly to look like a town vs town fight and give yourselves both town cred.

Official Ballot:

1. jasonT1981
2. Anon
3. vollkan
4. Ellibereth
5. Jack
6. Zachrulez
7. Pomegranate

8. TheButtonmen

SV is the other scum, this game is easy when you do some iso'ing.

[Jack]

I think claiming both breaks it?

Game is broken, did you realize we have only 7 alive? It's zach and SV yeah?

[Jack]

Which is what vollkan has been saying for a while I think, and he's actually been paying attention.

[Jack]

Well this game turned from sucky to very fun.

[Jack]

hmm, is it necessary?

[Jack]

Ummm... why should the doctor claim again?

Tell us about being scum Zach.

[Jack]

mmm, if there's a bodyguard than surely the claimed doctor is scum.

[Jack]

then what happened to the NK?

Maybe the mod took it away for balance :p

[Jack]

If elli is town, TBM is town (you are a sane cop right Elli?).

And if TBM is town, then Zach is lying about being doc, correct? I don't see bodyguard, cop, and doc.

We don't know the reason for the missed kill. Scum could have just been absent, some townie who just hasn't claimed yet, ehhh. But if we lynch zach, he flips scum, we get another investigation result. That gives us 2 confirmed townies in 5 alive. Very good odds. Or he flips town, which I would think means TBM and elli is scum. Or the mod made a crazy setup.

But zach is very scummy anyway. So it's obv just zach and SV. He probably fake claimed to save himself.

[Jack]

I was debating whether to claim this or not.
I think I should.
Cop was 1-shot.

Yes, ok good.

1-shot cop, bodyguard, doc, seems balanced, yeah?

That gives us:

Confirmed:
Elli
TBM
Zach
Jack

Unconfirmed:
SV
Pom
Vollkan

hmm that's a toughy

I don't think Pom is scummy enough to lynch.

Very weak stance. This was really early in the game yeah? Top of page 3. It would be surprising if someone was scummy enough to lynch.

I think that in a game with unusual mechanics like this everyone would read the rules (equally) carefully, and therefore

not

reading the rules carefully would be a nulltell. Thoughts?

Hmmm. It seems I missed this. I don't think that not-reading the rules is a nulltell. However, I don't think one little thing like this is nearly enough to lynch Pom.

Vote:

Jack for being annoying

Vote:

jason for ... being jason

NonVote:

volkan for being obvtown

Non-ascertained at this point: Anon, Elli, Pom, TBM.

Zach gets half a

Vo

te.

Still on the "not enough to lynch", but at least makes a show of reading her posts. Also, note that he says that he missed this post.

Because, just the opposite of what you said. In a "special" game such as this, I would think everyone would read carefully. Those that don't read, are paying less attention, thus, are scum.

NOT a nulltell.

Missing posts is a scumtell according to SV

Now, I'm convinced you're scum (and you just moved higher on my list).

This is at Jason. I don't believe becoming convinced that someone is scum merely moves them higher on the list. And jason's post wasn't scummy.

STOP LURKING, SCUM

I can't believe this is genuine sentiment.

I was going to say I see no reason for Pom to claim; then I realized we won't be at a point where she's at L-1. So, I see no reason for her to claim, but if y'all think she needs to, I guess, go ahead.

Official Ballot:

1. jasonT1981
2. Anon
3. vollkan
4. Ellibereth
5. Jack
6. Zachrulez
7. Pomegranate
8. TheButtonmen

Pom "isn't scummy enough to lynch" turns into "Pom is 2nd most protown". TBM was a likely scumbuddy of vollkan, but vollkan is at #3 while TBM is at the bottom. Anon is at #2 despite SV never having mentioned him. If jason didn't get lynch he wanted Anon lynched.


mmm I guess SV is kind of high on Pom's list.

Official Ballot:

Anon
jasonT1981
Zachrulez
Ellibereth
Shattered Viewpoint
Jack
vollkan
TheButtonmen

Probably SV and Zach. Possibly Jack after that.

Hmm, Pom is so wishy washy I'd be surprised if she put her scumbuddy at the top of her list. SV's weak stance could be him avoiding a town wagon. Or maybe it is a toughy.

[Jack]

mmm, still really don't like vollkan's stance towards pom:

The push on Pom is making absolutely no sense to me. The only semi-coherent accusation I can find against her is Zach's accusation of "more willing to discuss game theory than actually scum hunting", which on closer inspection I have serious issues with. Four problems, specifically:
1) The "theory" that Pom had discussed at that point was directly relevant to the paying attention issue re: Jack (which, ironically, Zach himself brought up, by saying that "lack of attention to the rules is at least slightly more likely to come from scum" - so it's not only wrong of him to accuse her of this, but downright hypocrticial; that is, unless was expecting to be able to make his theory claim without being challenged on it, which is simply unacceptable)
2) It was page 2. Zach said this was a "good early vote" - fine, but even if we accept that, it doesn't explain the continued suspicion.
3) At that same point in time, other people (including myself) had also joined in the theory debate, but Zach doesn't mention this at all
4) In a later post by Zach he says:

The push on pom "makes absolutely no sense"

after

the votes on her started coming in, but vollk should have mentioned it before, yeah? That's been how he's playing. If the case was terrible he should have attacked it before, perhaps he didn't want to defend his partner. He critiques Zach's case here which fits with his attack on Zach, but doesn't critique Pom herself. Eww, then he makes a point of asking her a bunch of pointless follow up questions.

Zachrulez --I said before that I wasn't going to take apart his reasons because I wanted to see Pom's defence. That will stand.

But does it stand? One gut town thing I see about the post that this is from is that he mentions what people said about Pom about 5 times.

Anon Crappy attack against Pom for her tone in asking a question, and then making a lazy line of attack against me for posting 'fluff' and spamming the thread. 55

Pomegranate

As I said earlier, the theory she discussed early on was game relevant. I don't hold that against her. That said, she has been posting fluff, roughly from Jun 17-21, whereupon, after being attacked, she started to pick up the pace again. That said, it seems that she was also genuinely falling behind, and I've more than once as town tried to maintain a semblance of followiing while desperately needing to acquaint myself with the material - ie. both theoretically and from experience, I don't think losing track of a game is scummy. And Pom made it pretty clear that RL things were causing her trouble. That said, even after she picks up, it is still little to no analysis. @Pom: Roughly what amount of time have you spent on this game so far? I'm giving Pom a tentative 55, subject to increase or decrease depending on the circumstances of her subtantive inactivity.

They are both 55...Anon ends up higher on the list. SV is a 56 for some reason, and ends up 3rd on vollks list. I don't buy that vollkan thought Anon was scummier. This is not how protown vollkan deals with two of the main lynch candidates.

I don't like how jason ranked 2nd on vollk's list either:

jasonT1981 I don't agree with the "unnatural reaction" attack on him, and I don't think his lurking is scummy. That said, he needs to be questioned over the deadline thing and from the points I raise above, he seems to be approaching his lurkiing in a dishonest manner by trying to deflect on to the consensus candidate of Pom. 60

And this is why I went and reread vollk in the first place (+ pom's having SV at the top of her list)

Which means, absent inv-immunity, Button can only be scum in a Elli-Button scumteam. This increases the likelihood of Zach being scum, but also my confusion.

[Jack]

blah blah blah my name is vollkan and I'm trying to suggest possible town thinking behind my posts

[Jack]

I know who the lynch for today is. Who do you think the lynch for today is vollk?

[Jack]

I think pom is lying. Scum have to counterclaim in that situation. I guess we'll see though.

Now, who was expecting that cc...

[Jack]

Methinks Shattered is lurking his way through this. Scumz.
Would lynching someone else (shattered) and leaving both claimed docs alive today be a good play?

No, it seems like we should lynch one of the claimed docs. They can't get a successful protection anyway.

Perhaps I was right about zach-sv earlier. But pom's claim is pretty bad.

If we lynch zach and he's scum then it's probably sv.

If we lynch pom and she's scum then we have to decide between sv and vollk.

Zach's lynch probably gives more info, but I think he is much less likely scum.

[Jack]

Elli, Pom was V/LA after the second time you asked the question.

[Jack]

Zach has posted like 20 times today but hasn't shown up here.

I'm pretty sure that if zach is scum, SV is scum.

And if pom is scum I think vollk is scum.

But I suppose we should lynch zach. If town he clears me and sort of vollk.

[Jack]

We should have the top suspects vote first and explain why.

[Jack]

Yes.

But then we have to establish top suspects. But it works.

Are you seriously pretending that you aren't one of the two lynch possibilities today?

[Jack]

I guess.

But why the HELL would I counterclaim Zach if I was scum?

Lack of counterclaim from scum-you would equal town auto-win.

[Jack]

I don't think Pom is faking dumb.

Don't be insulting :p

But yeah, I can go for zach and sv I guess.

[Jack]

I guess.

But why the HELL would I counterclaim Zach if I was scum?

Lack of counterclaim from scum-you would equal town auto-win.

A one-for-one trade isn't worth it for scum.

If Zach flips town you lynch me tomorrow.

Happy?

Ok not that it matters. But if zach's claim was believed then there were only three people left remember. sv, vollk, and you. And the town had a mislynch to spare. So that would be game over. But if you were scum you could get the mislynch on vollk, then we would lynch you, and then maybe we would lynch the wrong one out of sv/vollk. So you had to counterclaim if you were scum.

I'm tending to disbelieve zach's claim more though.

[Jack]

This is the only game I've ever played that's dead despite a claim-counterclaim.

Let's lynch Zach.

[Jack]

[Jack]

Official Ballot:

1. Zach
2. SV
3. Pom
4. Vollk
5. Elli
6. TBM

[Jack]

Not cool. I suppose we lynch SV. But there's no way scum should miss a kill.

[Jack]

No.

[Jack]

SV, I'd say, and if that doesn't work then Jack tomorrow.

Who did you protect last night?

[Jack]

Official Ballot

1. SV
2. Pom
3. Vollk
4. Elli
5. TBM

[Jack]

The game setup is bugging me.

It doesn't make sense to have a bodyguard with a 1-shot cop

and

a doctor. The 1-shot cop claims, the doctor protects him and the bodyguard protects him...if the scum try and kill the cop the bodyguard dies pointlessly. Protecting a used up cop is not that important. Maybe it's so that he gets to use it even if he has to claim day one.

But the scum both claim doctor gambit would have required them to skip a kill that would have put the game into lylo. Maybe makes sense if they were sure pom would be lynched. Then the no-kill next night is to get us back to even numbers so that scum have more room to hide. So I want to say pom is scum.

[Jack]

Jack or vollkan....

No preference?

[Jack]

Maybe I should just go with my gut and vote pom.

[Jack]

Perhaps vollkan's weird interaction with pom that I thought was scummy yesterday was just him avoiding a townie wagon. And the zach stuff was distancing.

But nooo, pom's claim post is just so fakey.

[Jack]

vy moi > Button?
Would one-shot cop, doctor, bodyguard be balanced with two goons if they had daytalk or something? Or is there def. a scum pr assuming pom is doc.

I just don't think you make a 9 player game if you want a bunch of pr's, and you don't put a bunch of pr's in a game where the point is the experimental voting setup.

[Jack]

v/la 3 days

[Jack]

What exactly changed between your posts 281 and 282?

I reread and rememeberd playing with pom/ate type players.

lli coming out with some kind of result - and it could very well have been, at that point, a guilty, which was somewhat more likely,

He was obviously trying to kickstart talk. "Zach, pretend I have an innocent on Pommy: then who's scum?" etc.

Ugh, and I don't like Jack's reaction after the claim, though. It's fairly anti-Pom, not addressing Zach, and sounds way too confident/solid/unconfuzzled for my taste.

How is "I think pom is lying" just "fairly anti-pom"? Do you think my posts as a whole that day were "too confident/solid/unconfuzzled"

[Jack]

Jack do you think Pom and Zach would have thought out a doc gambit like that on the fly?
I think only way Plummy/Pommy is scum is if scum have daytalk. Otherwise nah.
We still have like a week right?

no deadline.

They would have planned it the night before when they no-killed.

I reeeeeally want to lynch pom. Haven't reread vollkan though.

[Jack]

Reread zach pom vollkan in iso. Doesn't make sense to think that zach was bussing pom. Doesn't sound like it and he had one of the very early ballots.

Official Ballot

1. vollkan
2. Pom/plum
3. Elli

[Jack]

Why does Zach on pom not look like bussing?

WHY DOES ICE CREAM TASTE GOOD?

[Jack]

JUST VOTE PEOPLE

[Jack]

If I threw away my game long strong gut read out of frustration with a dead game and lynched wrong than I'm going to kill somebody

[Jack]

If I threw away my game long strong gut read out of frustration with a dead game and lynched wrong than I'm going to kill somebody