899 FABLES- THE GRIMMAFIA GAME - The End. Mod Sucks.

[Iecerint]

Doublealso, unless you're lying about being town or dana is lying about being a non-activated BB (i.e unless one of you has an NK), Grimmy would have stopped the game last night if there were two scum. Elli's ability could only delay an inevitable scum win in that scenario.

[Iecerint]

Results of dana readthrough --

Look at dana starting D3, which was when he really started playing the game. He was pretty ambivalent between DoS/me and only switched when it began to appear clear that DoS was the easier mislynch. Even then, he equivocated by claiming that it was somehow feasible that neither DoS nor me was scum (which, while bizarrely accurate, was surely not in any way the default thought pattern given the circumstances):

This post has convinced me until further notice that Iecerint is not the vote for today. However, I'm not 100% sure that DoS is, either. This is just plain confusing...

I can't see town making this post. Given especially that the old roles were visible, including Beauty-Kay's, I think only a player who knows both players are town and is trying to inoculate himself against the fallout would approach the issue this way.

D4, he pretty much pulled the same move. He voted me, unvoted when my lynch was impossible, then quoted the part of my post THAT ASSERTED THAT ELLI WAS NON-SCUM, cast vague suspicion on it, claimed he himself was "confirmed town" on the basis of his early claim, argued that my apparent ingenuity exonerated me (I suppose the same ingenuity he didn't understand?), and voted the only other player capable of being lynched. Then he stopped playing the game.

The only thing he has going for him is his D1 claim, which came before DGB found the old game. I cleared him at the time because the claim matched the flavor I'd read, and then doublecleared him because it matched the old game, which probably explains his low activity (and best in a scum context, as real confirmedTown would probably step up the activity at that point).

Also, there's the observation that his would-be unimpeachable fakeclaim *has not panned out*. In the old game, Boy Blue becomes a vig or paranoid role (pick one each night) when both Rose Red and Red Riding Hood have been killed. That pretty much all happened D1 (even if RR technically "left the game," I assume the mechanics would be unchanged). Even if Grimmy fiddled with the mechanics of activation (I doubt he hypothetically would have, because the default flavor matches the flavor, and he bothered to keep the Lumi-Frau-BabaYaga mess in the mini and to include both RR and RRH in the game), surely the condition would have been met by now. We also know from the rules that, were dana BB, he would be activate-able.

I think Grimmy probably gave him the old BB role as a fakeclaim.

[Iecerint]

It's very lonely here. <_<

Last night I targeted dana and got an innocent result. I don't put too much stock in that, though, because the old game indicates that Ghost only checks someone as "guilty" if he targets someone in the act of killing.

I wonder whether your megaRB motivated the result on dana, since Beauty-Kay's being nerfed and Ghost being harder to activate might have justified making Ghost a little fancier. PMing Grimmy.

[Iecerint]

Town would be VERY stupid to lynch me before then.

If you were following along, you would know that it is impossible for us to lynch you unless you help out.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: I suppose Grimmy hasn't posted another VC to confirm that I'm not only restricted on Elli.

[Iecerint]

DGB is the only player voting you. My vote almost certainly doesn't count (through I suppose Grimmy is yet to post another VC), and Elli is voting me.

Why do you think your vote doesn't count? Unless Elli is lying scum, his failure to be lynched is due to his ability on me.

I think a town player would have been significantly more reticent about claiming the details of his role, especially given that the old game's BB abilities play quite a mind-game on scum if scum already knows what's going on. Bonus points: the "teleportation" ability looks like a bus-drive, which probably accounts for San's result on me. It's too bad we can't lynch him today.

I got a PM back from Grimmy. It didn't clarify whether I was roleblocked. It's not necessarily an interesting point -- Ghost would have come up innocent on dana in the old game last night even if I hadn't been roleblocked unless I'm mistaken -- but for what it's worth, etc.

[Iecerint]

You thought Elli was lying about blocking me, but he was town? Or did you think that I was "lying" about reporting that Elli had claimed to block me?

Keeping the details of your abilities secret would probably make it more difficult for scum. For example, OldBB changes his abilities at will nightly such that Lumi RBing him results in her death on some nights, but it prevents her death on other nights. If you were town, keeping a lid on it would make it more likely that you could use your powers, assuming that Lumi still has similar abilities. (We know she can still magic-duel at the very least.)

But you're actually scum, so you instead decided to claim abilities to counter my point that BB would almost certainly have been activated by now, even if the mechanism was different from the old game. Given that one of them is "teleportation" and there's evidence of a bus-drive, I bet you mapped some of your Lumi abilities onto your activated "BB" abilities.

[Iecerint]

You have done nothing to "prove" that you're town. SP, the other scum, *did* have a fakeclaim -- he was Vulco Crow. It's just that it was exposed via the set-up of the old game when DGB posted it and Elli figured out that Rapunzel was mapped onto Clara. This time, Lumi probably got one, too (BB). Go read the Mod's postgame talk in the old game. He speculates that losing Lumi early would have disadvantaged scum disproportionately (due to the loss of the magical duel + potential Baba Yaga recruit). Assuming he looked over the game for Grimmy, he probably emphasized adding a fakeclaim for Lumi to make the game a little less swingy.

Unless one of you has some one-shot ability that would make this inexorably the final day (e.g. unless one of you is lying), there's no reason for this to be the definitive final day. Or I'm too dumb to think of a reason for it being such.

[Iecerint]

It can't mean that, because I know I'm not scum, and I'm the only one who can be lynched. So it must mean something else. Otherwise, a scum victory is guaranteed regardless of the outcome today, and today wouldn't be happening. For example, it could mean that Grimmy intends to declare a tie if no one dies N4 (such that D5 doesn't happen). Or it could mean that one of you has an ability that means the game is functionally over one way or the other depending upon your choices tonight. Or it could just have been a miscalculation on Grimmy's part. Who knows?

By your logic, I'm also confirmed, because Snow White was in the old game and has yet to be counter-claimed. Same with Bigby (DGB) and Clara (Elli), though Elli has extra confirmation because of the fireball flavor. If anything, Bigby and Snow White being the two main characters makes them slightly *less likely* to be fakeclaims a priori. (Yeah, mods sometimes save main characters for scum fakeclaims, but that's the exception rather than the rule.)

Reasons for you to be scum include how you approached the wagons yesterday and today, and your choice to fade into the background upon being "confirmed." All of those are most easily explained by your being scum. Your "teleportation" ability -- which you have yet to explain -- also fits with the apparent busdrive.

[Iecerint]

You expect us to believe that Grimmy gave you an ability "to teleport someone" without telling you what teleporting someone would entail, especially given that your other abilities are so powerful?

A busdrive is an ability that affects the targets of an ability. For example, if you and I were busdriven, abilities that target you would target me, and vice-versa. Things being what they are, that's almost certainly what happened. That's consistent with the other information we have about the set-up, too. The other confirmed day abilities have all resolved at the end of the day phase (rather than rapidly). For example, my Bigby-finder and Elli's vig both resolved at the end of D1. San's daycop and dana's busdrive look to have worked the same way. He probably picked-up on her D2 breadcrumb that she would "do something with me."

Also, you are totally ignoring the sundry other explanations for "The Final Day Begins," not the least of which are the ones I listed. Beyond that, knowing all of the actions by that time, do you think it's plausible that Grimmy would basically hand us the game if he meant the title the way you seem to imply?

[Iecerint]

NB to those following along at home:

1. This is the second time today that dana has alluded to extra information related to his role after I pointed out that there was less than would be expected. Both times, he's taken a little extra time for himself to come up with (read: fabricate) the information itself.
2. Dana didn't understand that elaborating on his role unnecessarily was scummy, yet he withheld information about one of his supposed abilities. I wonder why he did that?

[Iecerint]

Meh. Well, he was relatively quick coming up with it that time. <_<

So, basically, either you are not reading your PM very well, Grimmy is bad at English, or you are basically a

busdriver

redirector (even though busdriving would appear to fit "teleportation" flavor better IMO)?

[Iecerint]

You do realize I just got that ability, right?

Another slip. BB would almost certainly have been activated at the end of D1, when RRH was dead and RR left the game.

[Iecerint]

She's not 100% confirmed, but, if she's Lumi, then she's Lumi-posing-as-Bigby-knowing-Snow-White-was-looking-for-her. That, or ABR's early-game behavior was a huge coincidence.

[Iecerint]

In the old game, SP recruited by targeting a specific player during 3 cumulative phases. For example, N0/D1/N1, then D2/N2/D3, and so on. Unless Grimmy reduced the necessary time for recruiting to 2 phases (somewhat unlikely given how quick SP's scum number claim was after DGB posted the old game, but not impossible), it is probable that he wasn't able to recruit someone, because MordyFrau probably blocked him N1. Or I would've blocked him N1 as Frau, at least.

As such, I think whoever is scum now was probably also scum D1. Coupled with the mechanic with DGB, I don't think she's scum. You are possibly maybe a contrite SK, but I doubt it, and I certainly don't think you're SPscum.

I think dana is the only scum. SP didn't have time to recruit anyone. His masonry with you would have probably let him get at least one player if DGB hadn't posted the old game.

[Iecerint]

Dana's taking a big risk right now if he's my scumfriend, and with little reward. DGB could lynch me if she wanted to. Since I know DGB's abilities, dana and I could just wait out a No Lynch and gamble on you deactivating the wrong player with relatively little room for error. Or (better) he could redirect you to DGB and have me kill you.

[Iecerint]

How could I have come up with what teleporting does that quickly if I was BSing you?

I don't think anyone would dispute that you have a teleporting ability.

[Iecerint]

Scum is unhammerable, unless he wants to hammer himself.

Elli wants to talk to you.

[Iecerint]

Elli put smoke on me because he got sad or something and consequently couldn't quite manage the fire.

[Iecerint]

Beauty and Beast were the ones that died giving me the abilities I have.

According to Boy Blue on Wikipedia, there is no flavor connection between Boy Blue and Beauty and/or Beast. There IS a flavor connection between Boy Blue and the triggers in the old game (RRH and RR, who are love interests of BB in the original flavor, and both of whom were in this game). Use ctrl+f.

Grimmy would have to have changed the role to make it depart from flavor WHILE STILL INCLUDING the original game's triggers, even though one of them (RR) had a comparatively dull role (Elli adviser). Yet more evidence that dana is (poorly) fakeclaiming.

[Iecerint]

(EBWOP: He picked those names because any other characters would have departed from his prior claims about not having prior been activated and/or his claim that he was activated last night.)

[Iecerint]

1. You didn't come up with who died to give you abilities in "less than a minute." Your claim has been dragged out over the course of a week.

2. From my perspective, it's clear that "Beauty and Beast" aren't in your PM because you 100% have to be Lumi -- even if there are other scum, recruited or otherwise (unless Lumi is disguised as Bigby and part of the "bonus" for my finding him is that someone is falsely confirmed-ish -- super remote). From there, it's a matter of showing why you chose the players you chose, and it's clear why.

3. It's also telling that you don't protest that there is no flavor connection between the players. (Rather, you dubiously assert that your having come up with the names quickly makes your claim unimpeachable.) My PM had flavor regarding Bigby. Other PMs appear to have had flavor connections. It would appear odd that yours is an exception.

4. Your most recent post is still more weird. You're asking forgiveness for voting me? Why?

Assuming one scum, town wins if we no lynch today and Elli targets either no one or you tonight. Then, the two/three remaining players (respectively) lynch you tomorrow for the win. If there are two scum (Mordy neglected to block SP, or SP recruited DGB D1 and it resolved starting N1), Elli has to get lucky with the targets tonight. It could be that recruitedBigby can't NK (check the old game), in which case Elli's choice is relatively straightforward. Either way, that eventuality is comparatively remote IMO.

[Iecerint]

Regardless of his alignment, dana is a busdriver or redirector. We know this on the basis of his "teleportation" claim (which later morphed into a redirector claim and then into a "PM is unclear" claim).

Given that there is a scummy busdriver/redirector with a half dozen other fakeclaim inconsistencies, it seems straightforward that he accounts for San's result. San breadcrumbed her result the same day, too; it's not really that incredible that he would know to target her. This would also account for why day abilities have all resolved at the end of the day phases rather than instantly, as is the case in some games.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Breadcrumbed her

result

target.

[Iecerint]

Before this day ends, I have something I need to do with Iece.
I'll be picking you up in a few minutes

SP can die after that.

This was it.

[Iecerint]

1. Here's the evolution of your ability:

Teleport someone to another location

How does a teleportation ablility fit with an apparent busdrive, and what is that apparent busdrive?

He told me what it would entail. I'll describe it shortly, even though that's supposedly a "scumtell" [/eye-roll right back to you]

I think (although the wording is VERY confusing) that it means I can put someone in a different place, making them safer, but it has a possibility of leading to something bad for that person. I believe I also have the option of redirecting someone's night action to a different target, although that target could be me.

It's trivially true that this could be construed as getting "more specific," but that wasn't your aim. For example, you only elaborated when I indicated that what you'd shown so far regarding your abilities fit scum. Even ignoring that, your claim itself is also a priori scummy because of all the wiggle room you keep giving yourself. Even the current version of the ability allows that "something bad" may happen to your target.

2. You criticized me for explaining why you chose Beauty and the Beast for your fakeclaim here:

Instead of just accepting that I picked the names that make sense because they're in my PM, you assume that I picked the names that make sense for a fakeclaim. Once again, I had less than a minute to come up with those names.

So I was re-explaining why it would make sense for you to fakeclaim them. Also, great job pretending that you had only 1 minute to come up with the names, and nice slip in indicating that you had to "come up with" them.

3. This game is based on a graphic novel series. The characters' abilities are based on their abilities in the source material. That's true of my abilities (I become lover-masons with my in-flavor lover and send our child -- he's like wind or something -- to spy on people), and it's true of Elli's abilities. Aspects of your role are straight from the old game, and those fit the flavor (because you were given the PM), but stuff you've had to come up with today to explain your play doesn't match it. For example, Boy Blue has no story connection to Beauty and Beast, but he *does* have a flavor connection to the players who triggered his abilities in the old game, *and* those players were both in this game. All of that is self-evidently improbable.

I can't speak to the abilities themselves because I don't know the flavor that well -- I've read the first two volumes and much of the 4th on amazon -- but they're not similar to those from the old game. In the old game, BB could use either a "vorpal blade" or some other ability to vig or PGO. In other words, his abilities were based on using artifacts. "BB"'s abilities this time around -- particularly the "teleport" -- seem distinctly magical-flavored, which again fits Lumi.

4. When you think someone is scum, you should look at their play and find reasons their play is indicative of scum. What you have done is insist that you are town because of your D1 claim and your (series of) "less than one minute" elaborations today. Your approach is defensive, which indicates self-preservation, which is scummy.

5. Namely, flavor problems, abilities that explain holes in our previous knowledge, claims that abilities may do "something bad" to cover yourself later, claims that abilities are hard to understand (and you never bothered to ask the Mod) for the same reason, scummy approach to wagons D3 and D4, low level of activity after being "confirmed" D1, and (relatively trivial) diction slip-ups.

Unlike you, I have given a series of very specific reasons why your actions are best explained by you being scum. You have done little against me apart from point out San's (teleport'd) result on me (and even that only rarely, perhaps indicating that you know it won't fly after you slipped up there).

[Iecerint]

Your main defense has been that your claim gives you perpetual immunity, which should appear quite absurd to everyone, really, because the exchanges between me and DGB's slot D1 indicate that, even if I *were* somehow scum, I would have to be scum that was given a (modified) fakeclaim of a main character from the source material.

Another point -- it is simpler that Grimmy would give scum the old game's fakeclaims than that he would make up totally new fakeclaim roles for them, which would be necessary to explain my interactoin with DGB's slot D1 AFAIK.

[Iecerint]

I noticed it partway through, but I'd already done so much work.

If that's real, will end the day, and we still get night, block DGB on the offchance that SP could recruit in 2 shots and the conversion resolved at the end of D1. I doubt we'll have to worry about it because of how quickly SP claimed that the extra scum was "2/3" recruited.

[Iecerint]

Your "certain amount of time" was roughly 1 week. Your claims that you presented the information quickly are simply not true. Your diction slips are comparatively minor in the face of other significant slips, but that is precisely what they are.

Your cloak lets you teleport people around? O.o

[Iecerint]

Arriving for battle in the morning, he learns his new orders: he will observe the battle from a high parapet and, at the appropriate time, will use a powerful but poorly understood item known as the Witching Cloak to teleport himself to the ship with the message that the last defenders have fallen and they are on their own.

This is the only indication that the cloak teleports via ctrl+f. I guess this kinda does fit, but it's still a little different from dana's claim because it teleports BB himself rather than moving people around remotely ala his redirect/busdrive. Still, the "something bad" and "confusing" writing (not to mention the problems unrelated to this detail) make me pretty confident he's fakeclaiming it.

[Iecerint]

I just doublechecked. The old game only mentions the vorpal blade; no reference is made of the Witching Cloak. I dunno how he came up with the "magic cape" and then "witching cloak." I suppose it's possible he glanced through a wiki on his character.

Still, there's a flavor problem. According to the wiki, BB only has access to the Witching Cloak prior to and after the events of Volume 4. During Volume 4 itself (i.e. what this game is based on), he only has the Vorpal Sword:

Against Snow's objections, Blue has Dr. Swineheart patch him up and bind the Vorpal Sword to his hands so that he can fight in the Battle of Fabletown. In the street-level battle, Blue is injured by gunfire. Afterward, Dr. Swineheart continues to rehabilitate Blue and he eventually regains full use of his hands.

After Pinocchio is dismembered during "The March of the Wooden Soldiers," Blue leaves for the Homelands, taking the Vorpal Sword, the Witching Cloak and Pinocchio's puppet body.

He loses the Witching Cloak somewhere between the prologue and present in Volume 4. That's probably the reason the original game only has him using the Vorpal Sword; that's the only artifact he uses during the Battle of Fabletown.

[Iecerint]

I mean, even if we ignore all the stuff related to your claim, do you have a good explanation for my salient breadcrumbing with DGB's slot D1? For your low activity after being confirmed? For your approach to DoS's wagon D3 and/or Elli's wagon D4? Because those are other examples of "not a single valid point" that you've scarcely even alluded to, much less address.

[Iecerint]

I called you town D1 before he did on the basis that your claim matched flavor really well, and then matched the old game's BB pretty well. Now I think you're scum for reasons I'd rather not re-enumerate. Does that make me scum?

Elli outed SP without provocation. Also, he killed RRH with a mod-confirmed daykill fireball. It doesn't look like Snow Queen Lumi to me. I don't think Rodney uses fireballs, either. He could be SK, but Lumi is 100% in the game, so she's the more immediate problem.

Your confirmation took place D1. I'm talking about everything from there on until today.

"Confusion" is not a very persuasive explanation, valid though it may be.

Also, why are you reading Eli's iso? Just a few posts ago, you indicated that I was scum, and DGB the second-most-likely.

[Iecerint]

Vote: dana

I doubt this requires any explanation.

[Iecerint]

Now we'll learn that he made himself "harder to lynch."

[Iecerint]

<3Elli<3
<3dana<3
<3DGB<3
<3SP<3
<3Grimmy<3

I LOVE THE REST OF YOU, TOO.

[Iecerint]

You were a Survivor? Then why didn't we all win D4?

[Iecerint]

Why did you think there were 2 scum D4 as a Survivor? O.o

[Iecerint]

Well, yeah, but it is sort of impossible with regard to any normal survival role AFAIK. I guess you might have thought that Grimmy preferred to give a chance to bus.

Since DGB is Rodney, it should be clear that she was scum all game. We weren't given fakeclaims, either. The apparent lovers interactions between me and her slot were because I thought a hypothetical June role might be able to convert Rodney to town before the old game was leaked, so I was trying to mask perceived breadcrumbs to her.

[Iecerint]

I was thinking about breadcrumbing Cinderella before DGB posted the old game. Good thing she did.

[Iecerint]

Yeah. She is a very helpful lady. <3

I'm a little confused about what was up with "spirits in the town" and GK's death. It seems like they were side-effects of me killing Mordy, but I didn't expect it from my PM.

We changed our actions several times both N3 and N4, which drove Grimmy crazy, but I suppose that may come out when/if he posts the actions.

[Iecerint]

Neato. I guess that explains at least one aspect of dana's bizarro claim.

<3dana<3

[Iecerint]

DGB is my goddess. Favorite scumfriends ever.

SP had some pretty epic role induction D1 to find Frau and passable fakeclaims. It was 1/1 on Frau.

[Iecerint]

It's a really neat story if you don't mind the politics. I bet the Tea Party people would be all over it.

Bigby is the Big Bad Wolf, anti-hero. Rodney is one of Geppetto's puppets who wants to be a real boy, but Geppetto makes him do naughty things to win his freedom. In the comic, Pinocchio (already a real boy) convinces June and Rodney to work as double agents.

[Iecerint]

DoS, if you were wondering about my bizarre behavior at the start of D2, you were the copy-target. I thought SP's point about Grimmy being gone might actually be crumb that his DoS conversion was successful. Would have required funky night actions from Mordy, though. O.o

[Iecerint]

^ What a sweetheart. Love you, too. <3

[Iecerint]

I'm curious to know what dana did N4.

[Iecerint]

<3YAY FOR 11th HOUR ACTION CHANGES.<3