Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[elvis_knits]

I didn't vote him because I thought we were no-lynching. That's all.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't vote him because I thought we were no-lynching. That's all.

Why would you even suggest lynching someone that was imprinted then?

Because I hate buttonmen...

And I don't trust him...

And I didn't like that little quickhammer imprint business.

[elvis_knits]

we'll have a scumbusting trio of awesome.

I really want to do this.

The thing you said about pronouncing farside town and nobody imprinting her is a good one. Although I started to think she was town when I saw her playing in another game.

farside, saw me die recently as scum. If she still thinks I'm playing the same this game... then I just don't know what to tell her. Nobody that has seen me play as scum recently confuses it with my town play.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't vote him because I thought we were no-lynching. That's all.

Why would you even suggest lynching someone that was imprinted then?

Because I hate buttonmen...

And I don't trust him...

And I didn't like that little quickhammer imprint business.

Do you really read limerick as scum?

No...

Read my post about thinking maybe limerick is a patsy.

I was thinking maybe buttonmen wanted somebody else imprinted so that he can use a NK and blame it on somebody else.

I dunno. Honestly, maybe I am going overboard. And being paranoid. If you think I'm wrong, hey, I may be. The way limerick was imprinted just bothers me, with two votes in back-to-back posts.

[elvis_knits]

What's so funny?

Imprinting elvis is always a good idea!

[elvis_knits]

I'm not terribly concerned about the "quick-imprint". If anything, it makes me feel even better about Limerickx as the imprintee. I see almost no incentive for scum to imprint one of their own in this fashion.

Okay, I think this argument is stupid. Let me know if this is what you're saying:

Scum would not quick imprint their own because it is so obviously scummy.

That's the "too scummy to be scum" fallacy.

Not a fan.

Plus, if they both were scum, the benefit of them both having an imprint, with no town people having imprints might be huge. It might be enough to win them the game, so it could totally be worth it. I don't see why they wouldn't go for it if they were both scum.

As far as I'm concerned, Limerickx was a virtual lock to get imprinted after I put my vote on, so there was no reason for scum to pull a fast one.

Why was he a lock? There are other people with 3-4 votes. I don't think it was decided.

While I do share some of the concerns about TheButtonmen's recent play that Elvis has voiced, I certainly don't think it makes having imprinted him a problem that should be rectified by lynching him. It bothers me quite a bit that Elvis would even bring the idea up, much as it bothers me how strongly she's playing up the paranoia. The mechanics of this game certainly invite it (I've had my share of paranoia while mulling over who I was willing to imprint), but I think it's in the towns best interest to take it out of the equation as best as we can, not wallow in it.

This is a lot of crappy doublespeak if you ask me. You share my concerns about buttonmen but you're bothered that I brought up the idea of lynching him?

I think that the idea that we can lynch somebody to prevent their imprint is an important point. If we think there are any shenanigans with imprinting, that is our last chance to right things. I'm not being inflexible here in my ideas, but I'm bringing up all our options and listening to what everyone has to say.

Some other recent things I found interesting or problematic:

My problem of the 5 people I find scum only 2 of the players are on each wagon.

KOC - on both imprint wagons
reck - on buttonman
ctd (mostly do to messiah) on limerick's wagon.
Now if buttonman is scum there is the 3 scum left I can lean on more (reck/koc)
If limerick is scum then it would be KOC/CTD

If both are town then I would look at those not imprinting either
SC/EK/Soc

I think this is a rather simplistic and naîve way to look at things. Also, am I understanding this correctly, that you would reconsider your town-view on SC/EK/Soc if both imprinted players are town? (or am I mixing getting your town and scum reads mixed up?)

I actually thought farside's post was very good, and she draws good conclusions. I don't think it's naive. I wouldn't say that it's like the list for the firing squad or anything, you have to take the whole game into account, but her conclusions are good. Furthermore, they make me more suspicious that one or both of limerick/buttonmen is scum since I know I'm town and I am pretty sure SC is too.

This one is in the same vein, but even more problematic:

Also, if I'm just being paranoid, and buttonmen and limerick are both town, I would expect the wagons to be all or mostly town.

The wagons being all town would make you scum. Also, would both Limerickx and Buttonmen being town make you reconsider your stance on SerialClergyman?

Well then I'd have to go with the mostly option there if they're both town...

Limerick and buttonmen being town would not make me reconsider SC. He is town.

Comments like these irritate me:

Of the six people voting for each imprint, we have 5 people occurring on each one:

buttonmen, limerick, KoC, farside, pug

That's pretty interesting that the lists are almost exactly the same.

Wow. So it turns out, of those on that initial imprint push on D1 before DN was lynched, we have one confirmed scum, one confirmed town (starbuck) and EVERY OTHER VOTE OR NOMINATION barring one imprint from Reck all came from people who are currently on the Limerick imprint.

Essentially, whenever imprints have been decided, Serial, Elvis and Plum have been nowhere near those being imprinted.

If you find something that interesting, or so mindblowing you have to pull out the CAPS LOCK, why don't you share your own conclusions from whatever piece of evidence you're citing? At a first glance, I don't think there's anything substantial about these obvservations that will help us catch scum until we have some more bodies to work with, but by all means, enlighten me.

CTD, you're right in a sense that we can't know exactly what's what until we get some more bodies or info... but that doesn't change the fact that it seems strange that it's the same 5/6 people on both imprints. That means half the game is imprinting, and half isn't. Don't you think that's ODD? I wasn't sure exactly what it meant, but I really think it means something, and I think we have to keep it in mind for later. We have to look back at it when we get more info.

[elvis_knits]

I can't believe no one else see's the irony of what reck is trying to pull with his imprint at that time.

I'm pretty sure he's trying to make me look like his scum buddy, you know.

[elvis_knits]

Okay, I think this argument is stupid. Let me know if this is what you're saying:

Scum would not quick imprint their own because it is so obviously scummy.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there was no reason to quick imprint Limerickx (in a scenario where Limerickx is scum with one or both of Pug and TheButtonman) because there was every reason to believe that Limerickx was getting the imprint no matter what. This is not like voting for a lynch where the guy on the block can talk his way out of it with a claim or a good defense and a quick lynch might have to be secured.

The back-to-back posts still bothers me. I can see your pov, but it still bothers me.

This is a lot of crappy doublespeak if you ask me. You share my concerns about buttonmen but you're bothered that I brought up the idea of lynching him?

I think that the idea that we can lynch somebody to prevent their imprint is an important point. If we think there are any shenanigans with imprinting, that is our last chance to right things. I'm not being inflexible here in my ideas, but I'm bringing up all our options and listening to what everyone has to say.

I should have elaborated more. The thing I agree with you about when it comes to TheButtonmen is that he has been too passive since becoming imprinted, and that he wasn't really contributing to the towns efforts to imprint another player. And while I

do

find that somewhat concerning, it doesn't change my opinion of him dramatically. Would I vote to imprint him if it wasn't already a done deal? Probably not (I've had a better feeling about Socrates ever since he replaced into the game). Is he the worst person to have an imprint? Not by a long-shot.

In principle, I don't mind the fact that you're bringing up the fact that we can lynch imprinted people as a last measure, but the vibe I get from your posts is "well, gosh, you guys imprinted a guy 15 pages ago that I'm not comfortable with anymore, have you considered lynching him?" You were in favor of his imprint when it went down, even though you didn't vote to imprint him. You were even in favor of going to night with just him imprinted. Shortly after he got imprinted, you started voicing doubts. These have now escalated to the point where you're cautiously contemplating his lynch. I get that people change opinions, but the way you've gone about it makes me feel like you're deliberately sowing confusion and paranoia among the town now that we've finally settled on imprints.

Well, I've never liked buttonmen the entire game but was thinking he was town for the breaking strategy. A number of the scummy things about him have happend since he was imprinted, like him stringing us along has gotten more tiresome. Him saying that "nobody is getting pressured today this is bad" while he doesn't pressure anyone. Which is like saying "hey guys why don't you keep fighting with each other." Also his "vigging is investigating" comment has come since his imprint. And the quickhammer imprint. So I couldn't voice opposition to those things when they hadn't happened yet.

I actually thought farside's post was very good, and she draws good conclusions. I don't think it's naive. I wouldn't say that it's like the list for the firing squad or anything, you have to take the whole game into account, but her conclusions are good. Furthermore, they make me more suspicious that one or both of limerick/buttonmen is scum since I know I'm town and I am pretty sure SC is too.

Her conclusions are "all scum are on a scum imprint" and "scum only imprint scum". I'm simplifying a bit, but that's the basic gist of it.

I'm probably finding her post so problematic (and others similar to it) because it violently disagrees with what I consider a productive way to hunt scum. Why would you be willing to throw your own reads out of the window based on the one thing that scum can easily manipulate? It just feels incredibly counter-intuitive to me. I take voting and imprint patterns into consideration as well, but only once we actually have the information to judge them upon (read: dead people and revealed alignments), and then only as a supplement to my own reads.

I'm not thinking of it absolutes either. I just think that scum are going to want to imprint scum and not imprint town. This is not a sure thing, obviously, and scum want to blend in to an extent and be hard to read... but as a general trend? Scum want scum to be imprinted. Scum don't want town imprinted. I don't see what's counterintuitive about that.

Limerick and buttonmen being town would not make me reconsider SC. He is town.

Socrates then?

I would give him a harder look then, yes.

CTD, you're right in a sense that we can't know exactly what's what until we get some more bodies or info... but that doesn't change the fact that it seems strange that it's the same 5/6 people on both imprints. That means half the game is imprinting, and half isn't. Don't you think that's ODD? I wasn't sure exactly what it meant, but I really think it means something, and I think we have to keep it in mind for later. We have to look back at it when we get more info.

You're severely misrepresenting the facts here. Only three out of nine people weren't involved in the imprinting of those two people. Of those three, one hasn't had an imprint vote on record since page 32. That would be you. Why would you consider the fact that some people weren't involved in the imprinting process odd, when you deliberately refrained from participating yourself?

And no, I don't see what's particularly odd about it. But mostly, I don't see the point in trying to read anything into it.

I am not misrepresenting the facts.

We have 10 players alive right now. 5 players were on both imprints. That's half the town.

Why haven't I imprinted anyone today? Because I feel handicapped by the anti-elvis-and-SC sentiments, and the overwhelming support for buttonmen who I have huge issues with even if he's town. What I really want to do is imprint me and SC, and maybe farside. I haven't done it because I know it's a lost cause and will only enflame all the people who hate our buddying. I don't want the town to waste any more time on the elvis-SC conspiracy theory since it's a distraction.

I also feel a loss of confidence in myself after the starbuck lynch and was trying to just absorb a little more and let my opinions change if I was really going in such a wrong direction before.

[elvis_knits]

imprint farside

Go go go!

[elvis_knits]

SC, are you still thinking CTD is scum?

[elvis_knits]

I don't have much to say about Elvis' rebuttal, only this:

Well, I've never liked buttonmen the entire game but was thinking he was town for the breaking strategy.

Could you clarify what you mean by "like", please?

Almost everything he does bothers me, and it's hard for me to tell how much it is playstyle/personality difference and how much is scumminess.

As an example... he seems to have a hold-your-cards-close attitude when it comes to the game. He hardly gives out any information or shares his thoughts. Now, some people play this way. I don't, and I don't think it helps the game to hold back your thought unless you have a specific reason why it benefits town to do so. But, some people honestly think it's better to be secretive. My problem is that I think it's much better for scum to be secretive, and I find secretive play scummy. And buttonmen is taking it to like a whole new level.

[elvis_knits]

bump

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen, I would totally take those odds. LYLO with 2 possible suspects? 50-50 chance of hitting scum? Given all of the tasty information we have from player behavior throughout the game, I would totally take that. I don't see the problem. One reason is that if farside were one of the players who is possibly scum in a lylo situation, it would make my decision easy. She's probably town. Unless you think there's a huge chance farside is scum (which nobody is saying) then it's not a risk to imprint farside.

So, nobody wants to imprint farside except me and SC. A few people have refused and others aren't even posting (lurking so they don't have to comment).

This should make things easy for you guys. Either me, farside, and SC are the scum who have made a wild flailing gambit to get farside imprinted, or farside is town and the scum don't want her imprinted.

You decide.

Oh and,

vote The buttonmen

[elvis_knits]

I don't see how those two are the only options at all.

They're most likely by far.

[elvis_knits]

Limerick is right there is still the option of if I was scum and EK/SC was not scum there is 3 people needed to imprint and scum doing a quick imprint would look suspicious to many.
So as much as I can see SC's thought process I never consider scum to be dumb.

Nobody seems to care about limerick being quick imprinted, so I don't see why anybody would suddenly care if it happened to you. Everybody is saying they think you're town, so I don't see the huge problem.

[elvis_knits]

imprint farside22

unimprint: farside22

Not as sure about you as VMD was.

Please explain why you imprinted farside in your catchup post then unimprinted farside later, blaming the imprint on VMD (like it was VMD's imprint, when actually it was yours).

[elvis_knits]

TBH, I didn't see much of a reason for him to want to imprint you in the first place... I don't think he mentioned you at all and then you were the only person he imprinted. Then he unimprinted while blaming the imprint on VMD... who wasn't the one who imprinted you -- he did.

[elvis_knits]

I'd also like KoC to man up and respond to my points, however, if he would like to be lynched tomorrow instead, he should continue to lurk to the end of day.

I don't mind anyone hammering no lynch, and I'll do it myself if needed later. There's not much incentive for people to post since nobody is getting lynched, so I'm not optimistic about getting info at this point. Just thought I'd give KoC one last chance as well as wait a little in case people want to say something.

[elvis_knits]

no-lunch

lol

But I'm hungry!

[elvis_knits]

I really feel like hammering...

[elvis_knits]

I'm ready and waiting... curious to hear what the imprints are like.

[elvis_knits]

If we had imprinted two I would have shot Elvis, with three imprints vigging was too much of a risk.

Why would you have vigged with 2 imprints, but not vigged with 3 imprints?

[elvis_knits]

7-3 -> NK from scum + Misvig -> 5-3 -> Mislynch + NK -> 3-3 = Town loses

If Scum got a NK and I misvigged it was LyLo with 3 suspects. As such due to the 3 imprints I wasn't willing to risk taking the shot as my scum read on Elvis is about 65-75%.

With 2 imprints, if there's a NK I didn't do I knew who was scum, three removed that certainty. Without that certainty risking putting it at Lylo wasn't something I was comfortable with.

No...

See...

Scum don't get a kill unless they're imprinted with it.

So you're saying that you were worried that one or both of he other imprintees are scum AND would roll a killing role AND would use it.

So, who of the imprintees do you think is scum, and what were the chances of them getting a kill? Given that you got a kill already, the chances of one of hte others also getting a kill seem astronomically low.

[elvis_knits]

So you're saying that you were worried that one or both of he other imprintees are scum AND would roll a killing role AND would use it.

[elvis_knits]

I don't know what to make of the whole clash between buttonmen and others, but the egg is certainly on Elvis's face about a second person indeed getting a kill.

I'm not embarassed. If they're both telling the truth, I would say it's very unexpected.

If one is lying I would say it's buttonmen, because he went first. And limerick wouldn't fake a vig after buttonmen claimed vig if he's scum. It draws too much attention.

I also think these things are weird:
-adament about vigging, then decided not to
-said he would vig SC, and then today said he would have killed me
-says he was worried one of the other imprinters is scum who would use a NK, hasn't said who he thinks is scum of the other two... and yesterday he imprinted limerick and said he thought farside was town. So why was he so scared of them NKing all the sudden?

[elvis_knits]

Also, it's possible that button did shoot me and farside blocked it.

imprint farside

I feel like that's why he said that he would have killed me... to throw off from a blocked kill on you

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen, please explain why you changed from thinking SC is scum, to thinking I am scum and SC is town to the extent that you would have protected SC and vigged me. What specifically happened that made this change for you?

[elvis_knits]

So what should we do about imprints from here on out?

I really liked the lynch, look at flip, then decide imprints plan we had going, but now that we've done imprints once they carry over if somebody is scum.

If all the people imprinted from last night are town, it's like nobody has powers unless we reimprint.

If somebody is scum their imprint continues.

I'm just trying to think of what our strategy is from here on out... help!

[elvis_knits]

My top choices to lynch today are Buttonmen or KoC

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure what I want to do yet with imprints. I am not the best at strategy so I need to work with other people to arrive at a plan.

I don't know why you don't want an imprint farside. The whole "I'm afraid of being a patsy" thing could still happen to you. If you've been imprinted once scum can still argue that you're scum who got a kill imprint, lied about it, then used it another night. What I mean is, if someone dies on any future night you can still be suspected. And nobody really suspects you anyway except OMGUSSCUMButtonmen.

So... yeah. I think that people who have already been imprinted, AND who we think are town, should be first up to be imprinted again. Because it keeps the pool of possible scumkillaz smaller.

Farther than that, not sure what I think yet.

[elvis_knits]

Also, bumping so Buttonmen doesn't forget.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

Buttonmen, please explain why you changed from thinking SC is scum, to thinking I am scum and SC is town to the extent that you would have protected SC and vigged me. What specifically happened that made this change for you?

[elvis_knits]

Also, bumping so Buttonmen doesn't forget.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

Buttonmen, please explain why you changed from thinking SC is scum, to thinking I am scum and SC is town to the extent that you would have protected SC and vigged me. What specifically happened that made this change for you?

I don't get a super town read on SC, that comment was in response to Farside question of who I would have protected if I was a Doc and I've been fairly open in my opionion that I find you scummy I don't see why your suddenly suprised by it.

Hey so this answer is totally vague and not what I asked you for. You have said for some time that you think SC or me is scum. For a long time you wanted him dead. Now you have flipped to the opposite POV, and I want to know WHY you changed your mind.

[elvis_knits]

pug is so underwhelming to me

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen, you have posted twice since this and not explained why you flipped your stances on me and SC.

Please explain.

Also, bumping so Buttonmen doesn't forget.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

Buttonmen, please explain why you changed from thinking SC is scum, to thinking I am scum and SC is town to the extent that you would have protected SC and vigged me. What specifically happened that made this change for you?

I don't get a super town read on SC, that comment was in response to Farside question of who I would have protected if I was a Doc and I've been fairly open in my opionion that I find you scummy I don't see why your suddenly suprised by it.

Hey so this answer is totally vague and not what I asked you for. You have said for some time that you think SC or me is scum. For a long time you wanted him dead. Now you have flipped to the opposite POV, and I want to know WHY you changed your mind.

[elvis_knits]

lol... yay!

[elvis_knits]

Buttonman has out and out not answered the list of question I asked him yesterday.
Go team!

He hasn't answered mine either. Let's kill him!

vote the buttonmen

[elvis_knits]

farside, are you starting to think reck is town? Just wondering because you seem like you're trusting him at this point. My opinion of him is that I'm not hot on lynching him, although some of the old issues still stick out to me. Something about his manner is suggesting town to me though.

Anyway, I think KOC is likely scum too, and I will go for that lynch. However, buttonmen sorely needs atleast a bandwagon, and perhaps a lynch. Given the choice of lynching two scummy people, I would rather lynch the one who potentially has a NK'ING ABILITY.

imprint farside, serial clergyman, elvis_knits

[elvis_knits]

Who's up for lynching one of the arthritic hamsters who power the server?

Going from two arthritic hamsters to one arthritic hamster doesn't seem like an improvement. We need all the arthiritic hamsters we can get!

[elvis_knits]

My problem with not imprinting is that if we lynch KoC (which looks like a good idea), and buttonmen is scum, he still has his imprint from the previous night.

What I mean is, if we only imprinted town last night, not imprinting would be fine. But if we imprinted any scum last night, their powers will carry over, and town wont get any new imprints. So choosing not to imprint anyone, if scum has previously been imprinted, is just the same as only imprinting scum. Which sounds badbad.

LoS for CTD:

Scum:
KoC
Buttonmen
Pug

Neutral:
reck
CTD
limerick
socrates

Town:
SC
farside
elvis

[elvis_knits]

So I got a virus on my computer yesterday. I'm trying to get back into things. Can someone TLDR for me?

To the people that are not voting: Why are you not voting? Who is scum?

The exact people who are not voting are my picks for scum! Do I get a prize?

[elvis_knits]

Okay, this is what I think we should do:

We can lynch buttonmen and imprint nobody

OR

We can lynch KoC and imprint some people

My thinking is that since buttonmen is scum, if he is lynched, I would be fine with no imprints because I don't think farside or lim is scum. Therefore nobody should have an imprint (as only scum would have one and I don't think they're scum).

If buttonmen is not lynched, we need some town people imprinted to balance out what I think is a scum having a NK imprint.

I think buttonmen and KoC are both scum, but since buttonmen has been previously imprinted and KoC hasn't, the way we deal with imprints depends on which we are lynching.

[elvis_knits]

I did have questions for buttonmen, but I'm done trying to make him answer him. He had his chance. Now he should die.

[elvis_knits]

Unless people tell me why they think buttonman is town I'm not changing my vote.

[elvis_knits]

I, elvis_knits, am an ordinary active.

[elvis_knits]

REPOSTING YET AGAIN PER THE SCUMZOR'S REQUEST:

Buttonmen, you have posted twice since this and not explained why you flipped your stances on me and SC.

Please explain.

Also, bumping so Buttonmen doesn't forget.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

Buttonmen, please explain why you changed from thinking SC is scum, to thinking I am scum and SC is town to the extent that you would have protected SC and vigged me. What specifically happened that made this change for you?

I don't get a super town read on SC, that comment was in response to Farside question of who I would have protected if I was a Doc and I've been fairly open in my opionion that I find you scummy I don't see why your suddenly suprised by it.

Hey so this answer is totally vague and not what I asked you for. You have said for some time that you think SC or me is scum. For a long time you wanted him dead. Now you have flipped to the opposite POV, and I want to know WHY you changed your mind.

[elvis_knits]

LYNCH KOC. NO IMPRINTS. THANK YOU.

You know, it's been a long time and he hasn't done ANYTHING in this game. KOC would be a good lynch too. But I just loathe buttonmen and thirst for his blood. And if he's scum with a vig imprint, I really don't want him alive, even if KOC is scum too.

[elvis_knits]

Hey, buttonmen, you're L-1.

[elvis_knits]

=====[]

[elvis_knits]

I do agree KOC is probably scum, but I think the same of buttonmen and he potentially has a killing role this night.

CTD, please explain to me why there is a better chance buttonmen is town.

[elvis_knits]

By the by, the fact that Buttonman doesn't support the KoC wagon suggests to me that if he is scum, he probably didn't get a killing or otherwise majorly useful imprint yesterday. This is irregardless of whether those two are scum together. If he had the capacity to kill, I'd expect him to do more to avoid his own lynch.

I'm stating this for the benefit of the "ZOMG, we must lynch him first because if he is scum he will kill us at nite" crowd.

Then why would he say he got a kill imprint?

[elvis_knits]

The buttonmen lynch is taking a LOOOOONG ass time, so it's not looking like buttonmen is being bussed. KOC isn't even voting the guy and he could hammer buttonmen. Why woundn't KOC hammer buttonmen at this point. He has literally nothing to lose unless they're both scum, and KOC doesn't want to hammer the partner with a NK option.

[elvis_knits]

@Elvis:

Or KoC isn't on MS anymore. Yes I'm aware of the danger of him getting replaced and the replacment hammering if they are scum but if they do that when I flip town the town will be in a good place to nail at least one scum based of my wagon.

MOD, have you prodded KoC, and has he picked the prod up?

[elvis_knits]

-=CrashTextDummie, Limerickx, Knight of Cydonia and SerialClergyman have been prodded=-

Strike the last post, I see he has been prodded on Sunday.

Mod, has KoC picked up his prod?

[elvis_knits]

Unvote, Vote: Buttonmen

I don't know if I should laugh or cry at this point.

[elvis_knits]

I understood your point, farside, and I don't always understand what you mean.

You were telling buttonmen that his reasoning for not shooting depended on one or both of the other imprintees being scum. And he never said he thought you or lim, were, so this shouldn't have worried him.

[elvis_knits]

The buttonmen was totally not willing to work with us and his reads are wrong from what I can tell. If he is town... oh well. I can't say it's any great loss. We didn't imprint today, so if there is a NK, then lim or farside is scum. But I don't think they are. So we should all be back here tomorrow. And even though there has been a lot of drama and hystrionics, we still have only mislynched twice is buttons is town. The game is not over as far as I can figure. We still have a good shot at this.

[elvis_knits]

vote Knight of Cydonia

[elvis_knits]

imprint: serial clergyman, farside, elvis

[elvis_knits]

We should really imprint me.

Imprint: xRECKONERx

Fail.

You are lucky not to be getting lynched.

[elvis_knits]

So who do you think is scum?

I'm willing to believe KOC and pug are scum, but who is the third, if not you, reck?

[elvis_knits]

I guess pug, or perhaps socrates.

Pug's lack of participation sucks.

Socrates replaced plum... and plum is a very tricksy scum player, so I think if there is a player who has been fooling us so far, it might be plum/socrates.

Would you choose differently?

[elvis_knits]

You or farside, probably.

SC is my strongest town read, and I can't say why due to ongoing games.

Me and farside are like obvtown.

Recalculate.

[elvis_knits]

I thought he was saying one of us was the last scum, so that's why I said recalculate. If he or anybody else wants to investigate you or me, that's fine.

[elvis_knits]

btw just reading the game from the beginning personally I would have taken the scummiest player each day, imprinted them- if they claim vanilla, non-verifiable or scummy role then lynch them. 8-4 nightless isn't even THAT bad.

That doesn't seem like a great idea. The roles are assigned randomly so none could be particularly scummy and lots of roles are unverifiable. Plus giving someone you think is scum an ability is a bad idea.

Pug's lack of participation sucks.

Is that it?

Any other thoughts about the game?

[elvis_knits]

Why are you obvtown?

obv=obv

[elvis_knits]

KOC needs to die.

Pug is still doing barely enough to convince me they have a pulse. Not impressed.

[elvis_knits]

Hmmmm

I guess I see what Reck means.

I'm not sure that we will learn that much considering last time we got (apparently) two vig imprints and one doc imprint, which told us nothing. But I guess it can't hurt. Well, unless we imprint scum.

Pretty sure KOC is scum though.

And let's not forget whose hammer saved KOC from lynch yesterday?

Reckoner.

And whose plan to no-lynch would save KOC today?

Reckoner.

[elvis_knits]

This post was funny.

Dohohoh, way to go, idiots.

A townie lynch, AND no imprints to help you tomorrow. Good luck, especially Reck, Socrates and SC. You three seem sort of sensible, apart from your idiot hammer, Reck.

Looks like it was perhaps designed to start some sort of WIFOM twilight discussion, but then iamausername came in an ended day like almost immediately, so nobody posted anything else. Which was funny.

Anyway...

I am thinking that reckoner and pug are the last scumzors.

I still think me, sc, and farside are town. (SC's little "vote CTD" episode is sort of bad, but I dunno, still thinking sc is town)

I think CTD is almost definitely town after KOC flipped scum. CTD never stopped pushing the KOC lynch, pushed it consistently during the buttonmen lynch. I don't think he would have pushed to lynch his buddy that hard and that consistently when there was a totally viable townie to lynch in buttonmen.

Which gives us:

me - town
SC - still town (I think)
farside - town
CTD(messiah) - town

So then we have two scum in the people left:
Ortolan/limerick

reckoner
pug

Socrates(plum)

I think reckoner and pug are the most likely candidates.

I felt mostly pro-town about limerick during the game, so those feelings give Ortolan a slight edge. Socrates I don't really see as so scummy... he did say he thought koc was scum and was voting him but eventually ended up voting buttonmen. It seems like he voted buttonmen out of frustration, but it's possible that he was avoiding going through with the buss on KOC, delighted he didn't have to. But the next day he went right back to KOC. I dunno. Socrates is probably my backup scum.

This was the buttonmen lynch:
elvis, farside, sc,

pug, soc, reckoner

It makes sense to me for the scum to be on the buttonmen wagon late, pushing the lynch through when they knew it was possible to do so, and saving KOC.

We all know reckoner's hammer was bad and at a time when we were just opening other avenues of discussion. But pug's vote also does not make sense since pug had voted to imprint buttonmen the day before. These two votes are the most suspect, the most opportunistic.

Pug and reckoner were also the last on the KOC wagon yesterday, only bussing when they absolutely had to, when several of us refused to compromise and give up on the KOC lynch.

Reckoner's hammer looks really weird to me since he was pushin the no-lynch idea all day, and then all the sudden hammers when I point out how all his actions seem to save KOC from lynch.

(I also suspect that pug/reckoner/KOC may have planned a little twilight discussion -- KOC would tell them how dumb they were to hammer, and then reck and pug pretend to feel really awful about hammering a townie. Then when KOC flips scum they think it makes them look like clueless townies. Except iamausername closed the thread immediately. lol.)

I want to go back and look at the imprinting votes from d1, because I remember VMD(KOC) almost getting an imprint. I think we can find some good info there.

I also think there are a lot of ties between KOC and reckoner. Reck hammered button, tried to get us to nolynch when koc was going to die. But he also had a funny relationship with vmd, iirc. I think he put her down as town right from the start with like no explanation. I am almost positive reckoner is scum.

[elvis_knits]

Randomly.

lol

Part 1: all these quotes are from d1:

Buttonmen vs. VMD is quite telling. Buttonmen's suggestion is a null tell: while, yes, it would probably end in a town win, it'd take a hundred days, and he had to know nobody would ACTUALLY go for that suggestion.

VMD voting Buttonmen, however, seems like a town tell. Imprint: VMD

DeathNote seems to be just rolling over and giving up right now. I don't get it, nor do I understand it.

I think it's a null-tell

at this point. Probably just tired of defending himself. I think he's an appropriate D1 lynch.

[mrow]Scum[col]IGMEOY[col]Neutral[col]Town DeathNote[col]TheButtonmen[col]farside22[col]Reckoner SerialClergyman[col]elvis_knits[col]Limerickx[col]Messiah ---[col]---[col]Starbuck[col]Vala Mal Doran ---[col]---[col]Pug89[col]Plum

And I'm imprinting VMD because she seemed the most townie to me in my re-read.

By about page four I think it was, I was thinking to myself "Well, there's at least one obvtown". That read may weaken over time, but for now, it's as solid of a town read I'm going to get on D1.

IMPRINTS, PLEASE. I think we should decide that before we lynch DN.

Also,

On VMD: why do you see her vote on buttonmen as a town tell?

I though I explained that already. Anyway, I guess I didn't... but it was during her back and forth with him. To be completely honest, I'm too drained from exams to go back and do

another

re-read, so you'll just have to accept the fact that I got a gut town read from her posts, and it has not been retracted yet. Though, her recent down-spike in activity is discouraging.

Oops, nobody bought that so:

Hmm, on second thought...

Unimprint: VMD, Buttonmen.

I backed off of you AND Buttonmen, VMD. I realized my gut reaction was logically incorrect.

So you thought I was obvtown solely based on my Button vote, I take?

That was the foundation of my argument, yes.

I formed my first opinion based on that original logic, then confirmation bias caused me to see everything you did as townie.

Not that I'm saying you're scum - I still have a town read on you

- it's just not as strongly town as it was before since the foundation was faulty.

I feel like we need to get people imprinted THEN decide on a lynch.

TLDR: for that section:
1)Reckoner reads VMD as town for her scummy vote on buttonmen
2)Reckoner says DN's giving up is a null tell
3)Reckoner wanted to make sure we imprinted d1

---

Part 2:

Look at these two posts... just look at them. One he defends starbuck and votes SC, and in the next he votes starbuck.

@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

Vote: Starbuck

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan. Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no.

---

Part 3: Trying to get pug imprinted really badly. Imprinting buttonmen although he reads "neutral."

Imprint: Buttomen, Pug

All the way through the game he wants to imprint buttonmen, oh, until he hammers buttonmen's lynch. Also notice the pug connection.

...elvis is town, if you ask me.

We need to imprint people, otherwise we're just playing a nightless vanilla game.

Really wants imprints real bad.

I support myself, Pug, Messiah, and Plum.

Town reads, obviously. Messiah less so than the other three, but I think we could get info from his imprinting.

We should really imprint some peeps and go to night phase.

Let's imprint Pug and... well, shit, I guess I'll go with Imprint: Buttonmen just to get one out of the way.

Also, vote: no lynch while I'm at it.

I don't think I ever said Pug was CERTAIN to get an imprint. I suggested we imprint Pug, then reluctantly agreed that we should imprint Buttonmen. Not once did I say it was guaranteed.

Back off of too much of a connection with pug, even though he has been voting to imprint pug repeatedly for no reason.

KoC & Buttonmen both fall into the neutral range, as I keep flipping back and forth on them. Pug89 is in my "neutral-leaning-town" column... and elvis is in the WTF!? column.

Koc is neutral? Oh and then he wakes up the next day thirsting for KOC lynch.

---

Part 4: Juicy

We have reckoner pushing for a KOC lynch, and imprinting buttonmen... until he hammers buttonmen out of nowhere.

I say we imprint the same three people as yesterday and lynch KoC. Here here!

Imprint: Buttonmen & Limerickx

Vote: Knight of Cydonia.

Word dawg

KoC lynch > Buttonmen lynch

Buttonmen imprint round two is the way to go.

KoC is moderately scummy and a good lynch, we've already imprinted Buttonmen once, imprinting him again = autoinfo. If he's scum, then he'll probably kill eventually and we can pin it back on him or you or Lim. If he's town, then we're imprinting a townie again.

Have I done this yet, btw - Vote: KoC

I dislike this game. Can we please unimprint everyone and lynch KoC please?

Elvis, your plan sucks.

We lynch KoC and imprint nobody.

Who is scum with KoC? I dunno.

blah blah blah cop outs blah blah blah blah

koclynchplzthx

LYNCH KOC. NO IMPRINTS. THANK YOU.

Buttonman can be dealt with later. If there's a kill tonight, we lynch him, it's that simple

Oh, these next two posts are pure gold. REckoner saying "where did I say you were scum buttonmen?" And then two posts later hammering buttonmen.

Where did I say you were scum, Buttonman?

I just said you can be dealt with later, and if there IS a NK, then you are the autolynch.

Unvote, Vote: Buttonmen

---

Part 5:

Then yesterday we have reckoner arguing for a no-lynch. Even though he seemed to want KOC dead so badly yesterday, he's not really onboard for a KOC lynch. Until it looks like nobody is going for his plan, then he hammers out of nowhere again.

Ill Lynch KOC tomorrow if we no lynch and imprint today

Because if we lynch him and we're wrong it fucks the numbers up... but I'm about 80% sure on him, which is more sure than I am on anything else. I have this creeping hunch in the back of my mind that farside is scum, but I keep shaking it out of my head and dismissing it as paranoia.

Vote: KOC

[elvis_knits]

I'm sorry that was ridiculously long.

I tried to make it reader friendly.

[elvis_knits]

Okay, this should be easier to understand

:

1)Your original read on VMD never made any sense. You called her town based on something people view as universally scummy.
2)You defended Starbuck and then in almost the next post voted her.
3)You advocated KOC lynch a million times while trying to imprint buttonmen. Then you hammered buttonmen.
4)You argued against lynching KOC in favor of your strategy, then threw THAT out the window and hammered KOC like you were afraid to be caught off the wagon.

Those are my main problems with your behavior. Not that your reads were wrong. It's the behavior that doesn't make sense.

---

Of people not on the KOC wagon:

Farside, I think is town. She wanted to lynch KOC but was waiting to vote because of the plan you suggested, RECk.

Ortolan, I don't know if he's read the game yet, which is a good excuse for not lynching KOC.

SC, I agree looks bad because he was voting CTD, who is basically confirmed town after KOC flipped scum.

[elvis_knits]

Who do you think is scum?

[elvis_knits]

1. I'm not too keen about imprinting. The pool of players I trust enough has gotten pretty small. Aside from myself, it's basically Socrates and no one else, as I have some reservations about every other player. This might change upon my reread though. But at this point, I think we're in a strong enough position to win this game nightless-style.

I wouldn't mind going nightless. I don't know how much imprints will help us if we don't get investigation ability.

If we imprint, I would favor CTD and and farside. Like I said, CTD is basically confirmed town after the KOC flip. And I still think farside is town. Plus, she's already been imprinted, so it doesn't make our pool of suspects any larger if the worst were to happen and a NK happens.

3. I think I like Pug as scum better on Elvis' list. I still hate the fact that he was part of the Buttonmen lynch. Will keep a close eye on him as I reread.

I think this is the main point against pug -- that they flipped from a town read on buttonmen to lynching him. Also, pug hasn't contributed very much content to the game.

6. Elvis and farside I have mixed feelings about. I consider them the driving force behind the Buttonmen lynch (and consequently the KoC-save), and it bothers me a bit that they came out of it still completely buddy-buddy. Elvis is concentrating exclusively on the "scum latched on to the counterwagon when it became feasible" angle, which I'm not sure I'm buying. Elvis in particular I've kinda let slide after a certain point, where I took her off my list for reasons I don't really remember. Will also keep a close eye on her as I reread.

Well, I don't blame you for not liking me pushing the buttonmen lynch. But I do think it makes sense given my suspicions about him that went very far back. What makes the late buttonmen wagoners suspicious is not only "scum latched onto the counterwagon when it became feasible," but more important that

they had expressed almost no prior suspicion of buttonmen.

One question for Elvis:
Did you reread the game overnight?

Briefly. I looked up the votes on the buttonmen wagon by isoing username and wrote that down for my notes. That's how I know I did... it's in my notes. Then I made myself a little table of who I thought was scum and town. (I don't usually do too much reading during the night but I didn't think there was very much chance of me dying or anyone dying since I'm not too suspicious of ortolan and htink farside is town).

The long reckoner post today was made today after isoing him when he called my accusation random.

[elvis_knits]

In other news, Pug needs to be replaced.

Or lynched

[elvis_knits]

SC, I have some comments/questions about your wagon analysis:

D1 Lynch.

Deathnote

(7) - Elvis, Socrates, Pug, Iowa, CrashTextDummy, Limerick/Ortolan, SerialClergyman
Elvis (2) -

Starbuck

, Farside
SerialClergyman (1) -

button

Not Voting (2) -

Deathnote

,

VMD/KoC

D1 imprints

In all -

VMD/KoC

(5) -

Deathnote

, Limerick/Ortolan,

Starbuck

,

VMD/KoC

, CrashTextDummy
CrashTextDummy (5) -

Deathnote

,

VMD/KoC

, CrashTextDummy, Iowa, Limerick/Ortolan

button

(5) -

Deathnote

,

Starbuck

, Farside, CrashTextDummy,

button

If Ort/lim and CTD are both scum, you're saying all four scum were on the imprint wagons for both VMD and CTD. I don't know if I buy that. I guess it's possible, but I tend to think they wouldn't want to do that. Unless they were really desperate to imprint (which they might have been).

Do you think all the scum would group together like that? Do you think they banked on the DN buss to camoflauge their obvious imprinting?

D3 lynch

button

(6) - Elvis, Farside, SerialClergyman, Pug, Socrates, Iowa

VMD/KoC

(1) - CrashTextDummy
Farside (1) - Limerick/Ortolan

Not Voting (2) -

button

,

VMD/KoC

6 to lynch.

This part, I find CTD/Ort(lim) scumteam very unbelievable. It would mean that the buttonmen lynch had NO scum on it. When buttonmen was the counterwagon to a scum (KOC). I can't believe that the counterwagon to a possible scum lynch would have NO (read: ZERO) scum on it. I think that is, like, almost impossible.

[elvis_knits]

In any case, elvis, what do you think of an ortolan/Pug scumteam?

More possible that Ortolan/CTD (which is pretty much impossible).

I think I have to take a look at Limerick/Ortolan more to be able to comment better.

But, are you sure you're not scum, reckoner? Like, really? Come on, check your role pm.

[elvis_knits]

lol

I'm positive. I agree that CTD/Ort isn't likely.

Atleast one of the scums is on the buttonmen wagon:

button (6) - Elvis, Farside, SerialClergyman, Pug, Socrates, reckoner

If you're town, reckoner, I think Pug and/or Socrates has to be scum.

I don't know how I feel about Soc. CTD keeps saying he is in love with Socrates and wants to have his babies, but I don't really know why.

[elvis_knits]

Why did Limerick replace out of this game though anyway... is he still active in other games does anybody know?

[elvis_knits]

Do you really think CTDscum would have been trying to lynch KOCbuddy for two days, and never went over to buttonmen or anyone else?

[elvis_knits]

due to a dream I had

lol mafia dreams

[elvis_knits]

Does anyone have an objection to farside's town read on me?

:raises hand:

I came into today wanting you hung from your neck and beaten with pointy sticks.

However, I am trying to look at all possibilities. I am most open to lynching pug instead of you. I want to look at one of my earlier posts about the d1 imprinting (I remember me and SC did a lot of analysis that would be useful mostly later in the game if somebody turned up scum -- which vmd/KOC did). So I want to look at that and see how it relates to my feeling of Limerick/Ortolan.

I also want CTD to explain what is so protown about Socrates. He's another vote-switcher from the KOC wagon to the buttonmen wagon, and somebody that I would like to look at more.

[elvis_knits]

Someone mind telling me why farside is, like, obv-town?

Because farside is obviously scumhunting and continually argues for conservative pro-town approaches.

She really adheres to the safe route almost all the time... which is why she and SC, and me and her, had such problems early game. She thought that me and SC were using too much WIFOM in our townreads of each other.

[elvis_knits]

I was looking at D3 imprinting

The basic movement was:

1)Buttonmen and Pug almost getting an imprint (both one away)
2)Buttonmen gets imprint and people unvote pug, while limerick/ort moves up in votes
3)CTD, pug, buttonmen finish imprint on limerick, the pug and buttonmen votes coming quickly in back to back posts.
4)Some people want to end the day
5)SC argues we should imprint farside also. People that argued against imprinting farside: buttonmen, limerick/ort, KOC. Soc dragged heels a bit but went with it, pug posted to say he would catch up soon, didn't imprint farside, then limerick hammered farside's imprint.
(For reference, the VC's are at the bottom of this post).

My thoughts about the way the imprints happened:
1)I think it would be easy for scum to vote buttonmen(town) and also vote for their buddy at the same time. Provides a little camoflauge.
2)Buttonman and Pug getting to I-1(imprint minues one!) makes me slightly suspicious of pug.
3)HOWEVER, the imprinting of buttonmen went through, while the imprint wagon on pug died.
-->This is strange. It looks like me and farside unvoted pug. I think I started to feel pug wasn't contributing or something. So this is perhaps why the wagon died. But makes me wondering if the pug wagon was scum fueled or not?
4)While the pug wagon dies, the limerick wagon grows, and takes pug's place.
-->VMD/KOC(SCUMBAG) was on the limerick wagon from the get-go, and was never on the pug wagon.
5)I am suspicious of both pug and lim/ort from this turn of events. I think limerick is more likely to be scum because:
--A)VMD/KOC scum favored limerick over pug;
--B)I think scum would be very itchy to get an imprint after buttontown got an imprint.
--->I also think the end of the limerick wagon was suspect because it went down fast in back to back posts, but the people voting him there were pug and button. We know button was town, for one.

Pug is problematic here because he could have been imprint hammered by VMD, and was not.

Suggesting he is town. Unless VMDscum was afraid of being too obv?
6)Limerick argued against imprinting farside for a long time and then hammered her imprint. This is just WEIRD to me. Why would a scumbag imprint hammer farside?

-=Imprint Count #22=-

Hawaii(button) (5) - Hawaii(button), Kansas(farside),

Ohio(VMD/koc),

Florida(lim/ort), Montana(pug)
Montana (pug)(5) - Virginia(elvis), Kansas(farside), Alaska(sc), Iowa(reck), Montana(pug)
Florida(lim/ort) (2) - Florida(lim/ort),

Ohio(vmd/koc)

Georgia(plum/soc) (2) - Virginia(elvis), Iowa(reck)

Ohio (vmd/koc)(1) - Ohio

Colorado(messiah) (1) - Virginia(elvis)
Iowa (reck) (1) - Iowa (reck)
Virginia (elvis)(1) - Iowa (reck)
Alaska (sc) (0)
Kansas (farside) (0)

6 to imprint.

Hawaii (button)(6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa
Florida (lim/ort)(4) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas, Georgia
Montana (pug)(3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana

Hawaii (button)(6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa
Florida (lim/ort)(3) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas
Montana (pug)(3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana

Hawaii (button)(6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa
Florida (lim/ort)(3) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas
Montana (pug)(3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana
Georgia (plum)(3) - Iowa, Georgia, Ohio

Hawaii (6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa
Florida (6) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas, Colorado, Montana, Hawaii
Montana (3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana
Georgia (3) - Iowa, Georgia, Ohio
Kansas (3) - Alaska, Kansas, Virginia

Hawaii (6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa
Florida (6) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas, Colorado, Montana, Hawaii
Kansas (6) - Alaska, Kansas, Virginia, Colorado, Georgia, Florida

ANYWAY, I would really appreciate some comments on this... I am trying to figure out why the imprints happened the way they did. I'm still mulling it over in my head and would appreciate any other ideas/conclusions that people draw that I didn't point out.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah I am thinking that pug is not scum since VMD could have imprint hammered pug, and didn't.

I don't think it would have looked scummy for VMD to imprint hammer pug, so I don't know why vmd would be scared to do it.

This really does point to limerick/ort being scum. But that means that pug(town) and button(town) quick hammered his imprint. GEEZ. That would be like, really wacky.

And who is limerick/ort's partner? Because I really still think CTD is town based on his puch to lynch KOC.

SOC?

[elvis_knits]

I do think scum would buss, but this was like a really hard, long, buss, if it was a buss. Possible. I will look back to what CTD said about KOC. I don't think he wavered in his vote though, which makes me doubt a buss. I think scum try not to buss if they don't have to. I will give it another look though.

[elvis_knits]

Holy crap I feel like I'm drinking the kool-aide.

IF the scumteam is DN, VMD/KOC, Lim/ort, and messiah/CTD...

vote: lewarcher
imprint: VMD (I guess, since other people are doing it too >_<), limerick, pug, messiah)

Imprint: Messiah, VMD, Buttonmen

Imprint: Vala Mal Doran
Imprint: Limerickx

Imprint: Messiah
Vote: Death Note

Besed on largely unexplained "town reads"

Messiah: Out of everyone, I get the strongest town vibe from him. In my reread, whenever I found myself thinking of soemthing, 9 times out of 10 Messiah asked the question in his next post.

<snip>

VMD: Generally town, hasn't waivered too much

DN: imprinted everyone including whole scumteam (took some back, like on me and SC)
VMD: imprinted self, lim, messiah while voting DN
Limerick: imprinted self, vmd, messiah, while voting DN
Messiah: imprinted self and vmd, while voting DN (if messiah had imprinted limerick too, we would have had a perfect set here).

[elvis_knits]

Pug, why do you consider yourself the easiest lynch? From where I'm sitting, you're not top of the list for most people.

I was at the beginning of the day, at least for some people. Besides ortolan I know elvis mentioned she would prefer my lynch today and Reck seems sure I am scum.

You got to roll with the times! I'm really thinking you're town at the moment based on the fact known scum VMD/KOC could have hammered your imprint D3 and didn't.

[elvis_knits]

You got to roll with the times! I'm really thinking you're town at the moment based on the fact known scum VMD/KOC could have hammered your imprint D3 and didn't.

This perfectly illustrates why I don't like pure vote-count analysis. Pug reached 5 imprint votes in Post 774 (his own vote) and dropped back down to 4 only 5 posts and 3 hours later when you yourself unvoted. Votecount inbetween, but no post by VMD. Of course, this doesn't mean that you're necessarily wrong (I'm obviously not that far in my reread yet, and would have to check why VMD wasn't voting him regardless in a scenario where they're scum together and he had a real shot of getting the imprint), but I just wanted to point out the danger in jumping to conclusions from looking at vote counts.

This is a good point, and something I did think about after the fact and was trying to remember to look at how long pug was I-1, and if VMD had an opportunity to hammer or not. Regardless, it doesn't explain why VMD did not imprint pug before, if they're buddies and pug was generally thought of as pro-town. But, your point does muddy the waters, and make things less black-and-white.

[elvis_knits]

did anyone just get a mega-distancing vibe from the last two posts?

No.

Are you just going to throw out vague accusations like "distancing vibe" with no actual analysis or reasoning?

[elvis_knits]

Also why do you think I haven't been nightkilling after being imprinted?

Because we would have lynched you if somebody turned up dead.

[elvis_knits]

Also why do you think I haven't been nightkilling after being imprinted?

Because we would have lynched you if somebody turned up dead.

as opposed to...lynching me anyway, where I don't get to make any nightkills beforehand

Yeah nobody has been voting you before today. You haven't been a serious lynch candidate.

[elvis_knits]

If you flirt with me a little, I'll lay my vote down

[elvis_knits]

Flirting or no you might want to hold off now it's l-1 for all the haters to check in. But never fear -well savour the anticipation together...

The suspense is terrible...

I hope it lasts.

[elvis_knits]

vote pug

I don't like that SC asks me to vote and then pug lays down his vote. I was literally looking at the thread in preview and thinking about voting in my next post when I noticed pug had voted. We very nearly had a quicklynch there. And pug had to know that was an option.

[elvis_knits]

unvote; vote ortolan

L-1

[elvis_knits]

Why is ortolan calling me scum and voting to imprint me?

Is this the part where scum try to confuse us by acting crazy?

[elvis_knits]

I'm sorry I just saw you call me obv-scum and imprint me so I thought I could logically skip the rest.

[elvis_knits]

I feel like you don't understand how the imprints actually work.

I'm not sure if this is because you haven't read the rules or any of the game, or if this is because you are scum and the scum imprints work differently than the town imprints.

For example, you keep talking about how an imprint will work with the claimed imprints or something...

Town imprints give a one-night power. Scum imprints happen over and over once they get the power.

[elvis_knits]

In a lylo situation it definitely benefits us to do imprints because there's something in the rules that if the numbers are equal and no townies have imprints, then scum win. So in that kind of scenario we definitely want to imprint. But we're definitely not at lylo.

I will try to get some new thoughts on this game today. I'm dog sitting and the dogs are going crazy so it is not conducive to deep thoughts at this particular moment.

[elvis_knits]

Because the more I think about it, the mod giving out two vigs and a doc seems rather pointless. And Button flipped town. And I've been suspicious of her for awhile.

I'm not lynching her today. Tomorrow, however...

No matter who we lynch and what they flip you want to lynch farside tomorrow?

unvote

vote reckoner

[elvis_knits]

No, did I say that?

Ort's flip will be very telling of farside.

In what way?

[elvis_knits]

Reckoner, stop begging for an imprint and whining about farside.

[elvis_knits]

Peace!

[elvis_knits]

I miss CTD

[elvis_knits]

You weren't even voting Ortolan though.

[elvis_knits]

Eh, let's just go back to killing Ortolan. Notice how he got quiet once we began to fight amongst ourselves?

unvote; vote ortolan

Also, I've been one away from imprint for a while. I could vote myself, but I don't really care either way. Thoughts? Do we want to give imprints today or not?

[elvis_knits]

Stop the catfight guys

[elvis_knits]

Stop the catfight guys

He's being an ass and he didn't respond to the case I laid out. he just lashed out for no reason so no I'm not changing my vote till I get a proper reason that isn't just lashing out attack on someone's grammar or spelling or what ever the fuck his so called issue is with what I laid out.

Do you think Reck is town now? Why did you change your vote?

I know reck is a pain in the ass but didn't we arrive at the conclusion that he is town for some reason? I can't remember the reason, but I think if I look back it is there. I think it's the reason you imprinted him.

TBH I am somewhat caught between my earlier thoughts of reckoner/pug scumteam vs. the koolaid theory of ortolan/ctd.

CTD's more recent posts seemed a little desperate if you read them. He was looking at pug and socrates. And before that he kept saying "me love socrates long time." Because they "agreed on everything." So I think that was a buddy up move that CTD had to abandon because he couldn't get us to lynch anybody else.

Anyway... that's my thinking.

[elvis_knits]

Pulindar -- You reminded me of something that I forgot that I said:

Atleast one of the scums is on the buttonmen wagon:

button (6) - Elvis, Farside, SerialClergyman, Pug, Socrates, reckoner

Absence of Ortolan/CTD is worrisome...

[elvis_knits]

As for my reason's for saying reck was town and they only thing I found is day 1 where VMD was 2 votes away from an imprint. He unimprnted her after there was a 6th vote for imprint on her. I can't imagine scum unimprinting someone that is their scum buddy in this game.
She was too close to an imprint that day and it would have been a boon to get scum imprint day 1 for a team unable to kill without an imprint to give it too them.

Well, I was pressuring Reck about his townread on VMD at the time. I questioned him repeatedly because he said VMD's vote on Buttonmen for trying to break the game was a "towntell," when it was actually quite scummy. He might have felt forced to unimprint vmd.

[elvis_knits]

Reck is consistent, which I like as a town trait.

He's had some great answers, and his actions, while semi scummy, have been consistent against and for both proven town and proven scum alike.

I feel that Reck is a townie who prefers consistent play of play that favors any one thing or person. It leaves him open, but it feels to town for me to disbelieve it.

Now I'll be the first to admit that he bounces some times, and does some really scummy stuff, but it stays with his pattern and seems townish at other times.

I sort of disagree with you here.

Reckoner has had a number of actions that are more than semi-scummy.

-said VMD (SCUM) was town because she voted buttonment for trying to break the game
-flip-flopped on town read of starbuck to mislynch her
-hammered buttonmen during a renewal of conversation that might have changed the lynch, and saved KOC/VMD (SCUM)
-argued that we should imprint and no-lynch on the day we were going to lynch KOC (SCUM)
-constantly begs for imprint

Maybe that last one is only semi-scummy. The rest are pretteh scummeh.

The only thing making me wonder if he is town is something about his manner. He hasn't ever seemed really rattled. And I can sort of see him doing some of hte above things in error, or out of frustration. Although, taken as a whole, he has a lot of ties to vmd/koc.

Also SC seems to think reck is town, and I pretty much still trust SC. He could still be wrong, but, I give his ideas some weight. So it makes me rethink reckoner.

Also, when I went through the imrpint vote counts, if the scumteam is dn, vmd/koc, lim/ort, messiah/ctd, then scumteam bussed DN, and then all imprinted each other. Which makes a lot of sense to me as scumteam behavior in a game like this. They really want imprints, they don't really want to buss DN, but they have to. They trade bussing DN with trying to imprint the rest of the team. It makes sense.

Also, messiah was under heat at one time for hammering Starbuck I believe. I think the hammer was a bit hasty. Although, I know I pushed for that lynch like a ton of bricks (I had this feeling that scum were going to push a SC lynch, so we had to drive through another lynch before scum lynched SC. Didn't work out so good).

I want to look back at that time. The reaction to the DN lynch were certainly bizarre, IMO. Nobody seemed happy we lynched scum. There was almost a quicklynch of SC, then we switched to SB. I think this may be another area to find some good info.

[elvis_knits]

hmm I'll have to read that part. two of my other games are on night right now so I should have more time, and I have a free day today...

I'm definitely leaning towards Ort, though I see Elvis as taking alot of control of the game and for some reason that's turning me off.

I turn a lot of guys off.

In all seriousness... I don't know what to tell you. I'm just giving my opinion. If you disagree with me about anything, let me know. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for you to be suspicious that I'm "taking a lot of control."

If She is scum then it'll mean the death of town ... I need to go back and see what Elvis' thought were on all of the lynches.

Elvis, you seem to be pushing for an Ort lynch, correct?
I've seen much of the case, and I agree with you though... I really need to look again.

Elvis, if you don't mind answering the question, if Ort flips scum who would you push for next?
What if he flips town?

Those may not be questions you wish to ask, due to the fact that they may give scum information. I will understand you not wanting to answer those last two. But if you don't feel that they would be bad, I would like to hear the answer.

As I have said before I am somewhat torn between two scenarios: Ort/CTD and Reck/Pug. I mean, it's not certain that either of these pairs are the scumteam really... but it seems like the two scenarios that make the most sense to me.

So I'm in favor of lynching Ortolan, but I am also tempted to lynch Reckoner. If we lynch Ortolan and he flips town, I would have to reevaluate with that info (some of which I can't know yet, like what does the final wagon look like and what were the circumstances that the votes were cast). But I would probably be looking most closely at Reckoner and Pug.

Pulindar -- what did you think of my points against Reck? Do you have a different read of his ties to VMD/KOC?

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, I'm not sure I like this new guy.

[elvis_knits]

EK town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12069
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12654
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64&start=0

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, I'm not sure I like this new guy.

Sorry this comment was a bit bitchy. I just didn't like how you keep accusing me of "controlling the town." It just seems vague to me, and a way of silencing someone who is active.

I see your point that scum can try to "run the town" or something. But I guess I know that I am not capable of this! lol. I also tend to see scum sit back and lurk or watch a town fight amongst themselves, so... I don't really agree that scum are usually very active players.

Anyway... I do appreciate you replacing in and contributing.

[elvis_knits]

Virginia, why aren't you imprinting yourself for teh hammah?

I wasn't sure if we want to do imprints or not, so I didn't want to take any options away from us. If I hammer it can't be taken back.

I do think it would be fun to get an imprint, so I'd like to do it. But that's just purely for my own enjoyment, so I held back.

Should I do it?

[elvis_knits]

Okay!

imprint elvis_knits

Fun times!

Should we think about imprinting others? Or do we want to keep the imprint pool small?

[elvis_knits]

Okay, SC, if you are right about reckoner (and the tell sounds legit), and I think you and farside are town, we have half the players down as pretty solid town reads.

elvis - town
farside - town
SC - town
reckoner - town

The rest, scummiest to least scummy, IMO:
Ortolan (limerick)
CTD (this high on the list mostly based on relationship to ort)
Pug
Pulindar (Soc/Plum)

Pug has been the lowest volume, and has some suspicious points, but VMD's failure to imprint pug makes me think pug is less likely scum. The day we imprinted buttonmen and limerick, buttonmen and pug were tied with imprint votes for a while. Buttonmen got the imprint, pug fell away and limerick got bumped up. I think that movement is significant. After imprinting buttonmentown, scum really want a scum imprinted.

At one point it was even like this:

Hawaii (button)(6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa
Florida (lim/ort)(3) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas
Montana (pug)(3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana
Georgia (plum)(3) - Iowa, Georgia, Ohio

ort, pug and plum all have equal imprint votes. Out of the three, only limerick gets the imprint. And pug is the only one VMD (SCUM!) didn't vote for.

Hawaii (6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa
Florida (6) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas, Colorado, Montana, Hawaii
Montana (3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana
Georgia (3) - Iowa, Georgia, Ohio
Kansas (3) - Alaska, Kansas, Virginia

And if the scumteam is vmd/koc, ort/lim, ctd, then the whole scumteam was on limerick's imprint wagon.

I think this really argues for limerick scum. And ctd buddy.

[elvis_knits]

I think so. I'm voting Ort.

I'm also going to

imprint farside

I think she's town. And she already had an imprint, so it doesn't make the pool any bigger (or put the town at any more risk).

[elvis_knits]

I don't know if I'm

sure

. I still have some misgivings about you but I am trying to be reasonable since

farside

and sc think you're town and I think they're town. Also ort/ctd is looking good to me.

Anyway, I guess I could see imprinting you if we want to add another person to the pile. I'd probably pick SC over you, though.

[elvis_knits]

Hey guys! I got something useful!

My imprint was

Ian Stevenson

(you can wiki him).

I had the ability to check anyone in the game a get a list of all their imprints.

I picked farside. Duh.

I tried to check this thread to make sure it matches exactly with what she claimed, but I couldn't find the original post. But I'm pretty sure it's what she told us. Erotomachia from Mini 470, a doc imprint (paraphrase).

I was also told she got it D3. There was no mention of subsequent nights. I do not know if I would have been told that she got it every night after if she was scum, or that would just be assumed. BUT, I was just told she got it D3. (I'll ask username see if I can get any more specifics here).

SOOOO...

This makes me feel pretty good about farside.

I already did feel good about farside, but after ortolan flipping town I felt like a dipshit yesterday and was thinking I'd have to seriously reevaluate this game.

BUT, we do know for sure now that farside did not lie about her imprint. And scum might have. farside also said she didn't want an imprint after that. And I think that scum would have definitely tried to get another imprint if all they got was doc. I mean, doc is useful to scum, but I think they would really want a kill, so I think they would keep trying.

Anyway.

That's my info.

Farside was truthful about her imprint.

I have to think some more about where to go in this game, but I am thinking reckoner. VMD/KOC connections and begging for an imprint... I just think that's really scummy, and I don't know if I can ignore that any more, no matter what SC thinks.

[elvis_knits]

CTD, I think pug is scummy also. I am open to that. I don't think it would be a bad lynch at all. But I think Reck is my first choice. Second choice pug.

Lynching pug might be good in a way because it would sort of give me some info on you (CTD). The way you pushed KOC's lynch made me think you were probably town. But then I started to doubt myself because bussing does happen and also you weren't around much yesterday -- I thought you and Ort were scum and were sort of giving up. Or atleast that you were trying to avoid voting him, hoping he could escape the noose. Now that we know ort is town... I am back to leaning a bit more town on you. If pug flips scum too, it would make you look pretty town in my eyes for pushing both those lynches. (Not foolproof, but pretty good).

[elvis_knits]

No, my imprint just tells me what imprints other people got... nothing else like if they used it or not, or what their choice was.

[elvis_knits]

I thought it was weird I got a real person too. The other day the imprints were all mafiascum players iirc. I don't know if the flavor is by day or just totally random. It made me excited to check farside because I know the other dead guys had mafia player imprint names, but since I didn't, I was excited to check farside. If she was lying I figured she was scum. But the imprint is what she claimed.

[elvis_knits]

Reckoner, in 2103 you say how me and farside are 99.9% guaranteed town, and then in 2104 you FOS SC for saying the exact same thing.

[elvis_knits]

Pug was never replaced. He has just continued a pattern of lurking and lynching players he previously voted to imprint.

[elvis_knits]

Oh.

lynchlynchlynch then?

It would be funny if we lynch pug before he even posts today.

[elvis_knits]

Pug, who do you think is scum?

---

I think we should imprint me and farside.

imprint: elvis and farside

[elvis_knits]

Do you think he's just copying you?

[elvis_knits]

I really think that BOTH reckoner and Pug are scum.

SC, do you still think reckoner is town?

[elvis_knits]

The way I feel about reck is that his manner seems townish, but his actions are really really scummy. And I know I can be vulnerable to buddying (not that he's buddying me, but if a player is funny and seems relaxed and I like them, I tend to have reservations believing they are scum). So I'm not sure how much stock I should really put in the "townish manner" that I see. I think it may be my own blindspot.

CTD has had some really pro-town moments and thinking. He wanted KOC dead for a long time. But, his sparse posting, especially over the last day or two makes me nervous. He hardly helped at all yesterday, and now he comes in saying "oh man, I wish I had fought harder against the ortolan lynch and helped lynch pug." WELL, WHY DIDN'T YOU? It would have helped!

Overall though, I think Reck and pug are much scummier that CTD. CTD, I'm just a little nervous about since he hasn't been around that much, and hasn't been as much of a strong presence as I think he should be.

[elvis_knits]

No

[elvis_knits]

My list is probably this:

Pug ---- Reckoner
Pulindar
CTD
SC
farside
elvis

I can't remember what happened between VMD and SC day 2/3, so I have to look back to tell you what I think.

[elvis_knits]

Ok, should I just hammer him? We've given the guy a chance. Lots of chances actually. He's either scum or... he's town who hasn't tried at all this game and won't even try to save himself now.

(Also farside your new avatar is totally cute!)

[elvis_knits]

FWIW I cannot read Plum. Ever. I have seen her buss her buddies REALLY convincingly on more than one occasion, and I consider her a very tricksy player for me in particular to read.

[elvis_knits]

Reck, I still think you might be the other scum. So for me, that's why I'm not imprinting you.

I am ready to hammer pug. Any objections?

[elvis_knits]

Okay, I will wait.

[elvis_knits]

CTD, you were almost replaced at one time... so don't pretend you've been a model citizen.

[elvis_knits]

BOOOOOOOOO!

HISSSSS!!!!!!!

I almost voted pug right now because this last bout of disrespectful interactions pisses me off.

However, I will wait and read CTD's posts when I am less tired before I vote (pug). I really think that Pug's lack of contribution is scummy. I am a little surprised to see CTD go off of Pug at this point, after he acted like we were all dunces for not lynching pug yesterday. But... I haven't really read his posts yet. And despite the digs he has recently put in against me, I am trying to listen to people and I will read his posts and discuss before moving forward.

[elvis_knits]

I'm forcing myself to read CTD.

I do not like the flip on Pug and the flip on Pul.

Pul replaced Socrates. CTD had a crush on Socrates, probably because Socrates agreed with everything CTD wrote. Now that Pul suspects CTD, CTD switches his stance on Pul. I think he has some fair points on Pul (contemplating lynching reck, who he thinks is town). However, the scumslip thing he points out does not seem like a slip to me. It just seems like awkward phrasing. And I don't like that CTD is trying to call it a slip.

I don't like that he is now arguing against Pug, saying that Pug's contributiong have been consistent throughout and they don't really bother him. THEN WHY WAS HE ARGUING TO LYNCH PUG FOR SO LONG? I don't get it.

I am wary of CTD's biggest suspects being his biggest attackers (SC and Pul).

[elvis_knits]

I just did an ISO read of CTD. There are definitely some things I disagree with, and several things that may be manipulation. I really don't like the change in stances on Pul, Pug, and even reck. He seems like he was thinking reck was scum for a while there. And I don't really know why reck has dropped off his radar.

Changing reads of people is not really a bad thing. Often it is a sign of being town. You have to react to the new info, and scum hunting often involves changing your mind or admitting you were wrong about something. However, CTD's changes seem a little convenient to me. Soc was helpful to CTD, so CTD wasn't attacking him. Pul replaces and suspects CTD, and all the sudden CTD says Pul is one of his top suspects. New players often give a chance for a fresh look -- but I would think CTD would listen a little more to his prior town-read on Socrates.

---

The pug CTD relationship is interesting. When CTD replaced in, he said pug was-town:

Had a go at Pug. He really has played a rather clean game. The DN vote seemed pretty natural and didn't smell of bussing. There's instances in his play that subtly hint at him being pro-town and it would take a scum of considerable finesse to plant them deliberately. About the only thing that strikes me as worrying is his participation, he has 23 posts out of a total of 1093 and spent a sizable amount of his contributions on strategy discussion. But all things considered, I don't find him to be a very likely scum candidate at this point.

This is really bad, IMO. Pug "has played a clean game"!!!!!! Lurker extraordiaire who votes to lynch people he imprinted. Although, to be fair, I don't htink the imprinting/lynching stuff had happened when CTD wrote this. However, I see little reason for CTD to be this complementory of Pug.

I particularly didn't like the vague "town tells" stuff, and asked about it at the time. His answer:

There's instances in his play that subtly hint at him being pro-town and it would take a scum of considerable finesse to plant them deliberately.

Can you elaborate on what these instances were?

They were mostly little things and the general tone of his posts, but there was one that stuck out in his Post 143:

I'm glad elvis mentioned that scum can talk during the day. It is another thing different about this game that is easy to forget and should be kept it mind. It makes it much easier for scum to cooperate during the day than in a normal game.

This quote resonates with me, because the fact that scum can day-talk wasn't on my mind either for most of the time I spent on this game. I think it takes a sophisticated scum to make a comment like that, and while it's possible that Pug was just being good-scum (I'm not familiar with his capabilites as a scum-player), I think it's more likely to come from a pro-town player.

I think this is REALLY weak. I brought up that scum can day talk, so pug goes, "yeah, we should be careful." And pug thinks this comment mean pug is town, and it is somehow too sophisticated for scum to say something like that?? I don't agree, at the very least. And I can see this is scum trying to make their buddy seem town.

Then we enter into a period where CTD hates pug (is this legit, or a reaction to how I pointed out his failure to make pug look town?).

---

The following is a bunch of quotes that show the shift in CTD's suspicions.
-Starts out with some serious suspicions on pug.
-Makes case against Pug. Thinks buddy is SC.
-Votes Pug.
-(Gets suspicion from SC - not a new thing, and Pul - newer)
-Says he needs a reread of Pul.
-Concerned Pul may be pug's buddy. Thinks pug-pul or pug-SC is the scum team.
-OR MAYBE IT'S JUST PUL AND SC!!!! Pug all the sudden becomes town in CTD's eyes, and the two people who are suspecting CTD -- SC and Pul are the new scum team.

Once again, I am particularly bothered by Pug's vote. I just checked up on his last couple of posts in isolation, and I don't like the way he turned on Ortolan. There is no indication that he is suspicious of him from the time he imprinted Limerickx up until ortolan replaced in.

He mostly critizising his playstyle (i.e. not reading the whole thread and stuff like that), which in general isn't indicative of scumminess and really shouldn't have been enough to turn ortolan/Limerickx from "strongest town read along with Buttonmen" to his preferred lynch. His stated reasoning for the L-1 vote is very weak in my opinion, considering the 76 pages we have to work with.

As an added bonus (since he really doesn't have that many posts), I also checked up on his Buttonmen vote, which was even worse than I remembered. He acknowledges KoC's scumminess but votes Buttonmen based on stupid "he's more dangerous" reasoning.

Pug dilligently ignored my last post concerning him. I also notice how single-minded he is in his assault on Ortolan. I want to hear his thoughts on every player in the game to see where he really stands on everyone.

I'm pissed at myself for not arguing more strongly against the Ortolan lynch, and for the Pug lynch. I wanted to give due dilligence and reread him first along with everyone else but we all know how that turned out.

Might as well hear out what Elvis has to report. Vote is going on Pug barring any surprises.

I'm certainly not after Pug for lurking. It's the way he turned on both Buttonmen and Ortolan, who were his top two town picks for almost the entirety of the game beforehand. It's also the fact that his reasoning for this was very weak (granted, I felt the cases against both players were weak to begin with; I assume not everyone will agree), and certainly not sufficient to explain the complete U-turn he did on those two. It's to a certain extain the methodical way he has gone about these things, I don't get any uncertainty or doubt from him (I didn't see or sense a thought-process that would have made him change his mind over time on those two players), only calculation. And then there's also his behavior towards KoC during his lynch, which I haven't actually put much thought into, but was Ortolan's main point against him. There's more, but I'd have to (wait for it...) reread.

I think Pug and SC are the last scum. The former in particular is incredibly obvious at this point. I'm surprised this isn't an open and shut case. If people really need further incentive to lynch him, I can whip up a more detailed case either tomorrow or Sunday. The SC case is after that (though my initial case against him already has a lot of stuff on him, I encourage you to reread it).

As for everyone else: I've ruled out Elvis as scum, and farside isn't too far from that. This is due to Elvis' interactions with VMD and her general play in her case, and Elvis' imprint claim and some general behavior in farside's case. If I need to elaborate, I will. RECK I also have serious trouble seeing as scum, due to VMD's actions and the developement of his play over the last bunch of days. Most of the stuff people like farside are throwing at him are things I really don't see scum doing.

The only person I would only be somewhat surprised to be wrong about at this point is Pulindar. I didn't like his entry into the game (this, I will elaborate on), and I'm considering the possibility that Socrates slipped by me with his ingratiations. It's a very weak suspicion though. I think I have this game figured out.

Vote: Pug

Reread Socrates. Not as good as I remembered it.

Btw, if it wasn't obvious, I'm investigating the possibility of a SC-Pulindar scumteam (or a Pug-Pulindar scumteam to a lesser extent). This is because I'm not comfortable at all with how passive both Pulindar and SC have been today. SC, after a day in which he lead the lynch against ortolan using a dazzling flurry of faulty or misleading evidence and speculating wildly on scum-pairs, has come up with nothing so far. No suspects, no leads, no participation. Pulindar, similarly, seems at a loss (he had "nothing to add" at the beginning of a new day and having the benefit of a fairly fresh read-through). Of particular note is that he hasn't commented on Pug at all today, opting instead to get into a brief, fruitless and lazy argument with farside.

While I do think it's possible that one of them is scum with Pug and not wanting to bus, I also find it distinctly possible that they are scum together and hoping for the collective remaining town to mislynch. Of course, the problem with this theory is that Pug is genuinly scummy on his own.

2. The behavoir of Pug and the general progression of today. For one, I don't find Pug's lack of drive to avert his own lynch particularly indicative of him being scum. It's been a consistent theme for him all game long, and I never really found him scummy for it. And while I don't find his defense against the various points against him terribly convincing, I feel like I'm not looking at him objectively anymore (the fact that I just lost a game because I lynched a player I felt similarly about ma be contributing to this feeling) - he's right when it comes to one thing: farside imprinted and lynched both Buttonmen and Ortolan as well, and I don't think she's scum. If one town-player makes a bad play, it doesn't mean that another wouldn't make the same bad play.

^^^This last quote seems so crappy to me. Pug is not trying to save himself so he must be town??? Followed by more WIFOM diarrhea. CTD is either smoking the bad WIFOM reefer, or he is scum.

[elvis_knits]

I would appreciate it if you didn't misrepresent me (the same goes to farside, who does it even worse). I've never argued to lynch Pug because he didn't contribute much or played passively (which seems to be your number 1 reason to lynch him). I've argued to lynch Pug because of his involvement with the Ortolan and Buttonmen wagons.

I didn't mean to misrep.

I guess I have two questions:

1)Why aren't you bothered by pug's low volume of posts? You made specific accusations about SC and Pul not contributing enough so I don't understand the difference.

2)What has pug done to make your suspicions (about flip on Orto and button) go away?

[elvis_knits]

CTD, I will admit that some of my doubts about you are kind of like circumstantial evidence.

You were not suspicious of Socrates when he was agreeing with you vs. you are suspicious of Pul who is also suspicious of you.

Seems like you were buddying socrates when it was convenient and you could be OMGUSing Pul because he's attacking you.

I agree that this is not the only explanation for this, but it is a possibility that I am worried about.

---

Also, let's talk about SC.

I can see what you mean about him not contributing enough lately. This has bothered me too. He used to be so involved in the game and now he's not.

But I still have a hard time seeing him as scum. Perhaps I am clinging like an idiot to my past beliefs. I mean, if he's scum this game, I will feel eternally stupid. But I really have a hard time opening up that door to put him back into my lynch pool, and it makes me suspicious when people attack him.

---

Pug's lurking is a genuine cause for concern for me. Lurking makes it harder to judge allignment, and that's why scum do it. It's easier to fake town when you only post a paragraph a week. So even if Pug read town to me for a good amount of his posts, I would still be worried. If he's town, I keep thinking he would make more of an effort. Or that he would drop off so much he'd be replaced. But no. He stays in here, wasting space.

And Pug has done some genuinely scummy things... like the flip on button and ortolan. And I think it's pretty scummy for him to say he's "the easy lynch." Poor pug! The victim!

[elvis_knits]

And for that matter, how did you like his justification for having VMD on his town list?

Yeah, I don't love that. SC said VMD is town because she said Starbuck vs. SC/Elvis is town on town fighting. He is right in a sense that scum tend not to narrow their lynch pool if they don't have too -- they want the maximum chance of mislynches. However, I have seen scum say something is town-on-town under certain circumstances, like 1)The want to earn town points; 2)They don't think they can get on either wagon safely; 3)They don't think either wagon will go to lynch; 4)They don't want to be blamed for the mislynch. (I think I might have even said this at the time that SC brought his theory up).

[elvis_knits]

SC, what do you think of Pul?

[elvis_knits]

CTD hasn't explain yet why Pug seems town all the sudden.

He is saying that other people just seem scummier, not that any of his reasons for thinking pug is suspicious have gone away. (Which sort of seems like scummy doubletalk to me).

Bleh.

I think I'm going to hammer pug today.

[elvis_knits]

Vote Pug

I'm tired of this.

[elvis_knits]

I agree, I think CTD is most likely to be scum at this point.

I want to claim my imprint, but it will be better if farside goes first. I'll explain when I claim

[elvis_knits]

My imprint was iamausername from mafia 87. Tracker imprint. Farside didn't target anybody.

I didn't think there was much chance farside was scum anyway, especially when my result is that she didn't target anybody. But I figured we should do the claiming in the usual way to catch farside if she was going to lie. And she's not. So, yet again, more proof farside is town

I think the game will be over after killing CTD. But just incase:

imprint farside and elvis

[elvis_knits]

4> how is that scummy?

Townies generally don't advocate their own lynches. Scum do to incite WIFOM.

Actually, IME scum tend to be more keen on their individual survival.

5- quotes please

Click me

6 - quotes please

Click me

CTD - Pug never seems to do anything I find scummy. He could be lurker scum archetype, but doesn't really seem to fit it to me. He's been on the right wagons (clarification - the sort of wagons I'd expect a townie to be on), hasn't imprinted the wrong people. I've just never had my scumdar really raised by him. I could be missing something, but I haven't seen much to fear yet.

But SC wrote this on Dec 31... which is a long time ago in terms of the game days and just realtime. Lots of the things that made pug scummy hadn't happened yet.

And also, CTD, you said similar things about pug, but you sad it YESTERDAY while trying to derail the pug wagon.

[elvis_knits]

I think the scummiest things about CTD are:

Messiah hammering SB

CTD derailing Pug wagon

The only point in his favor is pushing for KOC lynch. However, that could easily be bussing since KOC was a sucky lurker.

[elvis_knits]

I'm reading the beginning of the game over. I'm not big for rereads and I probably won't get too far into it. But now that we have three scum flips I just want to look at the beginning of the game. I also think the almost-lynch of SC might be very important to look at.

[elvis_knits]

The picture I'm painting is more like:

CTD replaces into this game and he's scum with two lurker buddies and a bunch of townies confirming each other. He's thinking: FUCK!
CTD busses VMD/KOCbuddy for town cred.
CTD lurks for a while, making weak suggestions to lynch Pugbuddy, while letting the townies gang up on Ortolantownie.
CTD chastizes us for lynching Ortolan while we should have lynched pug, but says he needs a reread.
CTD abandons all lines of attack on his buddy pug now that other people want to lynch pug (cause bussing at this point is not going to work since people are connecting them anyway).



Anyway, I am rereading, up to page 16 now. I agree that there are some legit problems with SC. Wanting to lynch SB before DN is bad. Explicitly saying that if SB flips town, it clears DN... is bad. Wanting himself confirmed town if DN flips scum... is bad. (There's good in there too, but some of the stuff is a little iffy).

My point is that I am determined to think about this as objectively as I can. I am not trying to be blind to SC. I am going to give it a fresh look.

[elvis_knits]

Something else scummy about CTD is that he has been pretty stingy with imprints this game, and not really trying to get anybody else imprinted. And ever since we arrived at the realization that farside and elvis are town, he hasn't been imprinting anyone! AND he tried justify it later with "imprints are probably useless, so let's just forget about them."

I am categorically against imprinting anyone today.

2) I think we SHOULD imprint, at least the same players as last night. If we assume that a scum player got a NK last night, if matters little if we imprint the same players again. The scum might get another ability, but since they can only use 1, reward outweighs risk in my mind. If we assume that the three players imprinted were town, then of COURSE you'd want to imprint again.

The only reason I can see to not imprint again is if you think there was a scum player imprinted, and said scum player didn't get a NK, and you think the risk of that happening is greater than the potential reward of any other info.

Several things about this:
1. We don't lose any "potential reward" at all by not imprinting. We can always imprint tomorrow.
2. We can make a more informed imprint choice tomorrow.
3. I don't think it's a good idea to blindly imprint people just because they got imprinted before.
4. I think there's a good chance that imprinting scum repeatedly is bad for us, irregardless of whether they have a kill or not.

Take all of the above, couple it with the fact that I'm not confident we imprinted 3 town players, and you have more than enough reason not to imprint today.

Something about him saying the imprints were useless to the town. I mean how does anyone know who was telling the truth about their imprints but the person with the claim or mafia.

Imprints have been nothing but a bother for us. They haven't provided any useful information, they contributed in no small parts to the lynch of two townies and they in general acted as nothing more than a red herring, which

some

players happily pursued.

This is irregardless of whether I believe the imprinted people were telling the truth. I don't even know where this line of thinking is coming from. Either the imprinted people were telling the truth, in which case we gained nothing from the imprints, or an imprinted person was not telling the truth (hint: that would be YOU, farside), in which case we gained nothing from the imprints.

I'm willing to hear Elvis out. But I'd be surprised if she got anything substantial.

^^^^LOL

I mean, if you were scum and DN had died trying to get the whole team imprinted, and then everybody on the team had failed to get an imprint the entire game, and we were only imprinting a couple town players repeatedly... wouldn't YOU say imprints are useless and we should just forget about them??

From a town POV, I see NO HARM in continuing to try imprints even if they had been no help. As long as the people getting the imprints are town... there is NO RISK! And he wasn't saying he was suspicious of me or farside, but that the imprints were "too much of a bother."

LOL

[elvis_knits]

Interesting bit on Reckoner:

When he unimprinted VMD, she asked him why and they had a few posts exchange between them. It's on page 17. I'll let people read it for themselves.

Starts here:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=406

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I'm spamming the thread, but interesting things keep ocurring to me...

SC hammered DN sort of suddenly (which pissed everyone off). The effect was to prevent some people from being imprinted. The 3 front-runners were: Buttonmen, VMD, and MEssiah. We know that VMD was scum. If SC was scum, would he hammer DN like that and prevent all imprints (including the one on his buddy)? SC wasn't even voting to imprint any of the top three. He could have voted VMD (or all three or whatever), and VMD would have been one away from imprint. I seriously do not see why a scum SC would end the day early in a way that hurt the scum team - lynched scum and prevented atleast 1 scum imprint that would have likely gone through.

Also, I was bitching about MEssiah being close to imprint:

Messiah having 5 votes is mind boggling to me.

I don't find Messiah that town. I think he's been reactionary and not originating ideas, following other people's ideas and playing it safe. (I mentioned this a little, but haven't talked too much about it).

I'm also suspicious because people don't really seem to have much reason for putting Messiah to imprint. It's like "I have a town read of him," with very little explanation from everyone voting him.

@EK: I have an imprint vote on Messiah. Several pages ago I asserted that I had a town read on pretty much every one of his posts. He doesn't post as much as some, but the overall impression I get is that he values being succinct, and when he does post he clearly has a good head on his shoulders. He responds to what's important and asks the right questions/poses the right pointed statements and it doesn't take an hour to read through his posts like it does with some of us. <_< I like that and think he is a good choice.

^^Fluffy crap

Looking at the way the DN lynch went down is sort of funny:
Messiah and VMD and Pug were among the complainers when SC hammered (buttonmen was also there)

Day2

Post 479 buttonman votes SC
Post 480 Messiah votes SC
Post 483 VMD votes SC
Post 503 Pug says SC "quicklynched" DN (LOLOLOL)

This is pretty clearly a pissed off reaction to SC stopping them from getting imprints.

[elvis_knits]

Actually that is a really good point in SC favor as far as hammering and who was close to be imprinted.

Well, if SC is scum, that means messiah is not. So that would have been that one of his buddies was close to imprint with two townies. Was the reward greater than the risk? Could he have voted to imprint VMD without voting the others? Maybe he coult have gone 1 and 1 (like maybe just buttonmen and vmd and not messiah).

But I think it speaks in SC's favor that he wasn't voting to imprint VMD (or any of the known scum, he was only voting to imprint me and himself I think). We know his actions stopped VMD from getting an imprint. I *think* that a scum would have ATLEAST let the day go on a little longer and hoped somebody else votes VMD. (nobody really suspected her at that point).

I also think that the reaction of known scum VMD and Pug to the SC hammer is very important. They were pissed. If this was some sort of elaborate gambit with the scum team, I do NOT think they would be trying to lynch SC. The only reason for SC to hammer DN like that is to get town cred. But it didn't happen. He got wagoned immediately and almost lynched, and vmd and pug scums were against SC. It literally makes no sense for the team to have one of the members hammer another member and then the others immediately buss the hammerer. That's just stupid.

I still want to look at d2 switch from SC to SB... didn't get time to read that yet although I don't think it's too long.

I read the exchange from VMD to reck and it felt like VMD was trying to get Reck to vote for imprint her again.

I think I read it like that too. This especially seemed like VMD was a bit angry that reck unvoted:

@Reckoner: You think I'm "obvtown", then back off of that read when Elvis starts questioning you about it and unimprint. Why?

"Dammit! Why did you let elvis scare you off?!"

Although... I'm not sure it's really clear cut. I think that it's *possible* that recko got caught imprinting his buddy for a BS reason and then his buddy engaged him in this conversation so that he could "explain" in a way designed to make him look better or distance? I dunno. This one seems like more of a longshot.

[elvis_knits]

Hey - we can all agree that at least one of me and elvis isn't scum now! Woot.

I was thinking this too. It's funny to read the beginning of the game where everyone was suspicious of us pulling some massive scum gambit. Now we know it's not possible!

[elvis_knits]

I'm not liking the appeal to emotion, CTD.

I'll respond to the rest later.

[elvis_knits]

As an excercise, read back on the last couple of days and look for instances where a player tried to cast doubt on Elvis or farside, one of which the scum in all likelyhood need to get rid of if they want any hope of winning this game. And yes, I'm thinking more of Pulindar than SC here. That's the kind of behavior you'd expect from scum in this situation, aside from simply not trying anymore.

Pul did suspect me a bit when replacing in, that is true.

SC has been actively trying to get people to accept me as town since like page 3. SC also was instrumental in getting farside imprinted the first time, and getting her accepted as town. He even had to convince me to back off of farside... as me and farside both thought the other was scum for a while. If he is scum, he has made it impossible for him to win, because at this point, me and farside are never going to lynch each other.

SC has worked hard to find two people he believes are town and get them imprinted every night. If he's scum, he has to know that is just going to make him lose, and I don't see why he would do it.

You on the other hand were like "imprints=stupid... let's not do it anymore!"

[elvis_knits]

CTD, explain to me why the scumteam would have scumSC hammer DN, and then VMD and Messiah try to lynch him immediately.

[elvis_knits]

You know I thought Reck hammered and looked and realized he didn't. Wow I'm out of it.
I think if CTD flips town would lynch Pul next. Ek is makes great points about SC and I think mine comes more from paranoid aspects of our last game together.

I still am a bit suspicious of Reck. But we could fight about that tomorrow if it comes to that.

Regarding SC... I think there are some genuine scummy points against him, but I also think that some things have happened that make it very unlikely for him to be scum. And I want CTD to answer those points, if he can.

[elvis_knits]

CTD... this also looks bad for you although, I don't think there's much you can say about it.

@EK: I have an imprint vote on Messiah. Several pages ago I asserted that I had a town read on pretty much every one of his posts. He doesn't post as much as some, but the overall impression I get is that he values being succinct, and when he does post he clearly has a good head on his shoulders. He responds to what's important and asks the right questions/poses the right pointed statements and it doesn't take an hour to read through his posts like it does with some of us. <_< I like that and think he is a good choice.

^^Fluffy crap

VMD imprinting Messiah for crappy reasoning.

Also in my reread I was reminded how I thought Pug and Messiah were sort of alike... saying similar things early game. I'll look for examples if I can.

[elvis_knits]

EXCITEMENT!

Now I'm sorry I didn't hammer. I think CTD is el scumzor, so this should be it.

[elvis_knits]

I got a vig imprint.

I wanted to kill reckoner. That's who I would have killed.

However, I figured that if I'm wrong about him that I might disrupt our current plan and give the real scum an opening to say that I'm scum or something. So I was a good girl and didn't shoot reckoner in the head. It hurt me to hold my fire. And I felt like a wimp.

[elvis_knits]

The vig imprint was Megatheory in Mini 630

[elvis_knits]

I would have shot you though, reck.

Vote Reckoner

[elvis_knits]

Farside, we should have vigged last night. It would get this done sooner.

[elvis_knits]

The main reasons I think reckoner is scum, OTOH:

1)Imprinted VMD, reasoning was that she voted buttonmen for his breaking strategy (he called it a towntell; it was actually more of a scum slip)
2)Hammered Buttonmen when discussion had started up again, preventing a lynch of KOC
3)On the day we ended up lynching KOC, reckoner pushed for a no-lynch and imprints (which would have saved KOC again)
4)Consistently begs for imprint

[elvis_knits]

I'm not going to turn on farside.

Pul... that last post was confusing for me -- who do you think is scum? Can you give me an order of scummiest to least scummy?

[elvis_knits]

I'm not going to turn on farside at this point. She suspect VMD before it was cool. More than once I have verified her night actions as truthful.

I also don't think SC is scum, but if it came down to it, I would vote him over farside. And I would think that he just overplayed his hand with the "confirming townies" bit.

I think it's Reck or Pul. I think it's reck for the case I outlined, but Pul is largely a wildcard to me at this point. His last point made about zero sense to me. It sounds like he doesn't think anyone is scum but he's just going to follow along? I don't get it.

I guess it doesn't matter which one we kill first. I'm voting Reck because I thought reck was scum a long time ago. I was saying reck and Pug and allowed myself to be convinced otherwise. So I'm going with my gut unless someone makes a good case, or Pul can't explain himself better.

Do we want to keep doing imprints? At this point, I don't care one way or the other.

[elvis_knits]

I think the imprints have been fine. It's not good when a game is reduced to follow the cop. This relies more on scumhunting, which is good.

imprint farside and elvis

[elvis_knits]

... whose butt are we discussing?

SC, I know you're good as scum, so even though I don't know what game you're talking about where you beat farside, I am totally aware of your scumpowers. At one point I looked at your wiki. I think you have a perfect record. But whatever. I don't think you are scum. However, if we get to three players, you, me and farside, I'm lynching you.

At this point, I refuse to lynch farside. I don't think she's scum and I don't want to WIFOM myself to death.

But if she does end up winning this game as scum I will say she totally deserves it... and I will also blame SC for convincing me she was town in the first place.

[elvis_knits]

Dammit.

imprint elvis and farside

vote Pulindar

[elvis_knits]

Vote SC

Imprint Farside

lol

[elvis_knits]

I don't get the no-lynch thoughts.

If we want Pul dead we don't need a vig to do it. We only need to lynch.

[elvis_knits]

YAY! HOLY COW!

I shot Pul last night. Not sure if farside did also. I was glad to get a vig.

Overall, I had an awesome time in this game. There were some definite bad points because of all the townie fights which I realize I had a big part in. I know I can get overly emotional at times, and I apologize for increasing drama. I didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings and I harbor no ill will toward anyone. Miraculously, I think me and Starbuck have even put the past behind us. <3

I think this game was unconventional and interesting in a lot of ways. Finding other townies that I could trust was the key to winning the game, I think. OTOH, it also led to a ton of drama, and many of the mislynches. The strategy prevailed in the end, but I know there were lots of casualties.

I learned a lot about myself this game. I have realized that I tend to eliminate my opposition (and those that oppose my townreads) with a pretty lethal hand. I defend myself and those I think are town by lynching anybody in our way. Scum tend to try to keep their lynch pool open, and have to find ways of undermining town trust, so I am hyper aware of anyone who tries to do that. Of course townies also end up being victims also because they might not have the same POV as me, or they're just paranoid. But I can't always tell the difference.

When I think of our mislynches, nearly all of them had major problems with SC or myself. Buttonmen and CTD really wanted SC dead. Starbuck wanted me dead. Attacking my townreads seemed scummy to me. I am trying to find a way to play and be more of a uniting force -- rather than just breaking the necks of anyone who gets in my way. I thought that the way SC united me and farside was a genius move. Unorthodox and very important.

I sympathize with the scum not having a kill -- I think that makes things very difficult on a scumteam. I fail at playing normal scum, so I can only imagine what it's like to play without a kill.

I was shuddering at the propect of having to convince elvis to vote against farside if it came down to an SC-elvis-farside lylo. (I was 1000000% positive elvis wasn't scum, and I knew out of the two of them I only had a chance of convincing her anyway.) I'm glad I don't have to.

You know, I would have been horrified to get to 3-man lylo. I stated many times in thread that I would never have voted farside in lylo, but I was mostly saying that because I didn't want to rock the boat. Basically, I was lying, lol (sorry farside!). My intention was to think very hard about which of you to lynch and I might have voted either of you. Don't forget, you were my town read since page 1, which I clung to like a pitbull no matter how much people fought me on it. It would have been hard for me to vote you and I would have had to really think that one through.

This is probably one of my favorite games because it was so hard fought by everyone. I think we should all be proud.

Thank you to Iamausername for a wonderful game and a great job modding!!!! <3

[elvis_knits]

I stated many times in thread that I would never have voted farside in lylo, but I was mostly saying that because I didn't want to rock the boat.

I had my suspicions. In your position I'd have said the same thing to try to force scumSC down a crazier path to victory.

Yeah, my thinking was that I wanted you to feel hopeless if you were scum. I thought it would help me read you better by what you did from there.

I also figured that if I pissed off farside that I would destroy the delicate balance we had going on. So I wanted to put that off as long as possible.

[elvis_knits]

One of my favorite posts of the game: