mini 943- Greek Mythology! (And the winner is... ?)

[Johoohno]

/confirm

[Johoohno]

Vote: Plum

for kicking off the RVS.

@ greenindirt

: What made you pick the MindGamer "wagon" over Shadow Dancer?

[Johoohno]

I'm a fan of being eager, however, I expect a new post from Iecerint very soon to help us read his role and not only his mood.

[Johoohno]

@ MindGamer

: Strut your stuff, show us your alleged manipulation routine!

@ greenindirt

: Is MindGamer your top suspect as of now?

@ Iecerint

: Explain what happened between post 34 to 36 to make you change your vote.

@ Jack

: Would you say that Iecerint is following you or do you read his play between post 30 to 36 in another way?

People need to post.

Does above apply to you as well Vas?

[Johoohno]

@Johoono: following me in what particular way?

Copying your vote and then when commented on his vote and explanation on SD by you moving on to GiD. I know this isn’t much more than talk so far since he hadn’t read any role, but that is part of what I seriously dislike in game play. (However, at that time he was statistically more likely to be town than scum, I guess.)

@ greenindirt

: I meant alignment, but in this game there doesn’t seem that big of a difference, since role names won’t be revealed upon death However it doesn’t say anything about role revelation, but we’ll know more about that after first lynch. Actually that part will be interesting, I've never played in a game where role names wasn't revealed upon death.

@ Iecerint

: Are you meaning Vas in the post above, otherwise I don’t understand where you got that from?

I’m also amazed why it is discussed whom you trust, rather than whom you find suspicious (Post 55 by Plum and post 60 by Vas). But to be fair Vas mentioned Shadow Dancer as mildly scummy and when commented on that by Jack puts a vote there a few posts later.

[Johoohno]

On the language issue:

I disagree with Iecerint (here), however, I prefer hearing Shadow Dancer come back and defend himself. Nevertheless, this entire debacle has shown some interesting things. I’m curious why Jack keeps his vote on Shadow when he at the same time is attacking Iecerint in post 79.

@ Jack:

Is Shadow Dancer your top scum candidate right now?

@ Iecerint:

In my post 65 the last two lines weren’t in reference to you. And the reason I thought you meant Vas is due to his sig, where he states English isn’t his first language. And your last comment on SD in post 67 is unintelligible to me. And a note just to make it crystal clear: I loathe the idea of people playing without knowing their role, it may be used to seem town when they in fact aren’t. When you then, the way I see it, start following someone around you try to create yet another safety measure should you be scum (and then possibly dragging someone down with you). As you must have noted, I’m not voting you, since all those things were done before you got your role. But I still dislike that play style and it has made me more suspicious of you, waiting to see if it is play style only or might be role too.

On the topic of TWENTY:

I seriously don’t see the big fuss about SV saying twenty instead of twelve players. However, it seems as if he’s got previous experience playing with Plum, making him believe her to be scum in this one.

A Plum game link here would fit nicely

, either by Plum or Shattered Viewpoint.

@ Vas:

You really have to stop stepping in and defending other player’s action (like in post 118 where you defend Shattered Viewpoint), it is better if they defend themselves first and afterwards you can step in and agree or disagree. Also, I’m far more interested in who you think is scum (and why, of course) than town.

@ Mod:

Please prod Bio Hazard!

[Johoohno]

Addendum: on the issue of people playing without their role knowledge: It is against the game playing not knowing your win conditions. Most games, including this one, has a rule that you should play to win. How can you do that if you don't know your win condition?

[Johoohno]

@ Vas:

Are you sure you've read the rules? The hammerer doesn't get any power, but all tokens the lyched had.

@ Iecerint and Jack:

Yeah I know the number twelve/twenty isn't the issue, but I still don't see the problem there. Why would scum be more likely to lie about the reason (SV's hyperbole crap), than town? Does it tell us about anything but player style? But I agree with Shadow Dancer, should I catch Shattered Viewpoint with a lie that is actually game related he's likely to earn a vote, due to his comment on lies being anti-town.

@ Iecerint:

I didn't agree with you on Shadow Dancer sounding brusque, I thought that his question was precise and to the point. Even though it was aimed at a probable random vote, it came at such a time where more discussion was sought after.

@ Plum:

Feel free to give us your meta anyway, I'm actually waiting for it.

@ Shadow Dancer:

Good that you're lynched in that other game, you've been riding my roller coaster of suspicion and more posts from you will help me decide what I think of you.



I feel we've got loads of information to analyze later on in the game, but I still don't want a lynch anytime soon (just saying since the vote count shows Shadow Dancer being pretty close). As you might have noticed I'm not totally in to the policy "Lynch all liars", but I am fond of "lynch all lurkers", and I really don't want anyone slipping out of day one without giving us enough material to go back to later on in the game.

That said:

Mod: Please prod Bio Hazard

(I know you mightn't have checked in since my last request, this is just to make sure).

~Confirming that Bio Hazard was indeed prodded last request.~

[Johoohno]

@ Iecerint:

Yes, I am also reading Shattered Viewpoints ”hyperbole”-comment as something he made up on the fly (and I still believe that tells us more about play style than alignment).

GiD did not explicitly indicate that his vote was for pressure. That's just how Jack interpreted it.

I don't have much to add to it, but I think some increased pressure on SD might prove worthwhile.

Vote: ShadowDancer

Above quotes struck me a bit odd, since you seem to keep thorough notes judging by post 152 above.


I am a bit under the weather and will be back with a more substantial post once I'm feeling better, in a day or two.

[Johoohno]

The time has come to make a list of things I found scummy or noteworthy so far.

• Snow_Bunny:
  Keeping a very low profile, the game I’ve seen her in before I think she played a bit differently (but I’m not sure if it has to do with that being a newbie game). I seriously dislike post 151 where she doesn’t seem very interested in doing any scum hunting herself.
  
• Shattered Viewpoint:
  Not much to go on yet (partly due to told V/LA). You all know what I think of the 20/12 issue. However, post 52 where SV accuses greenindirt of lying where he doesn’t really do this is kind of odd. This doesn’t really get commented until post 106 by Plum (I know greenindirt briefly addresses it in post 57). And that is a few posts after the 20/12 post (post 101). As I stated in post 122 I would like to see some reference as to where Shattered Viewpoint obtained another feel for Plum’s gaming. Neither of them has responded by giving me any kind of link (I know Plum claims she doesn’t know SV from before, but could very well show us some meta on her being town and scum).
  
• Jack:
  I asked about Iecerint following him in post 44, and all I got for answer was “@Johoono: following me in what particular way?”. When I specified later on in post 65 he never got back to that, but he does start to attack Iecerint more. And from there on he is pretty much targeting Iecerint (post 71 & 82 & 87 being the most obvious). When I ask him if SD is his main suspicion in (since he is still voting him) post 122 he answers in 127 that he is suspicious of Vas, SV, SD and Iec and that he kept his vote on SD due to him talking and tying the rest as possible scum partners. I don’t know about the rest of you, but trying to find ties between scum partners in day one is hard and close to impossible unless anyone of the scums screw up. However, getting back to day 1 later in the game when one scum is found might be rewarding. Now he has stayed silent here for some time even though I'm pretty sure I saw him posting in other games in between.
  
• Flava Flave:
  Hard to say anything about him, he is too short in his posts and leaves a bit too much to be interpreted by others (like post 121). I do agree with his attack on Plum though. But his play style seems a bit laid back, as if waiting and hoping for others to do the work. I’d appreciate more posts!
  
• greenindirt:
  A lot of his later posts are about stalling (post 80, post 149 & post 163) and I would like him to commit himself to the game again. (He felt quite active to begin with.)
  
• Ooba/Mindgamer:
  MindGamer didn't give us much to go on, and Ooba seems to be a bit too focused onShattered Viewpoint in post 166 where he comments on important posts so far, as if he really wants SV to be scum.
  
• Iecerint:
  Talks a lot and tries to be everywhere at once. Is kind of buddying up with Jack in their rapid conversation on page 4 and 5. (but that isn’t solely of his making, Jack was part of it too). A town player has very little interest in buddying up with someone, especially after that other one has been attacking him. I am not so sure that this was a town on town argument (that someone else called it). I’m also a bit disturbed by his play style mentioned in post post 122. His misinformation called upon in post 153 and his grasping at straws (Attacking SD’s tone in post 75 and the 12/20 debacle he fuels with a vote in post 110) doesn’t sit very well.
  
• VasudeVa:
  I dislike post 139 where he says Iecerint must be town for being right about SD not having English as his first language. Why would that point more towards town than scum? Is doing a bit of rolefishing in that post and post 142. I would very much like this low profile player with active lurking (post 160) on his menu to step up and bring more personal insights to people’s posts.
  
• Shadow Dancer:
  His buddying up with players is a bit disturbing (patting Iec on the back for finding out that English isn’t his first language and putting a townie stamp on Jack 136), and so is his final words on his SV vote (that it is "momentarily", as if he expects to change pretty soon as something better appears, even though he himself has at lengths motivated why he votes in the first place) in post 144.
  
• LordChronos/Bio Hazard:
  Not much to say here but post more.
  
• Plum:
  Paints a lot of people as town in post 55 on little to no information, smells like wanting their good will. Snaps to life (in post post 106) after Shattered Viewpoint (post 101) calling her play style scummy in comparison to some other performance he seems to have seen by her. My vote is on her in wait of the meta I’ve called for so many times now.

Now this should be fuel for posts and comments in this game that seems to have lost a bit of momentuum as of late. If those called upon above for further participation respond to that request I will present my top three list on my suspiociometer shortly.

[Johoohno]

I'm somewhat behind (have read till post 175) but will catch up during this weekend. However, I have a quick response to Iecerint's post 170:

Talks a lot and tries to be everywhere at once.

Since when is high activity a scumtell?

Depends on the context, but someone who tries to defend himself all the time is by my measure more likely to be scum than one who has some kind of screening process of what is valid and what is not, and also trusts his fellow townies of finding fabricated tells. Also, cluttering the thread might be a good way to hide away those fabrications, slips or accurate leads from others among a lot of fluff, walls of texts, or short remarks on irrelevant details.

Where do you get the buddying vibes?

I would love to hear everyone discuss their views of our discussion so far, ideally in the next 24 hours

Sounds as if you’re asking: “What do you all think of the scene we have created here, do you find it sincere or does it seem a bit staged?” After that comes post 86 where you seem to want to put a lid on further discussion just to have an easy way out of it.

That's ok Iec, I'm more interested in Vas right now

@ Jack

I was at first going to vote you outright for dropping me so quickly under the circumstances, but then I went back and read post 60.

I haven't dropped you by the way, I'm just shifting focus.

All these things together makes the entire discussion sound a bit staged with streaks of “nudge, nudge, buddy”

His misinformation called upon in post 153 and his grasping at straws (Attacking SD’s tone in post 75 and the 12/20 debacle he fuels with a vote in post 110) doesn’t sit very well.

I never "attacked" SD's tone.

“Attack” wasn’t perhaps the most precise choice of words by me, but I spoke of you grasping at straws, and what I meant is that you use small details to create something out of nothing, this one detail blew up to become quite the talk of the day, spreading over pages, but really has very little merit in my opinion.

@ mod:

Please prod Shattered Viewpoint.

[Johoohno]

Still behind in my reading, but Shattered Viewpoint, could you please show us the game where you found Plum acting differently!

[Johoohno]

@ LC: Yeah, I know, but he might be around answering that anyway *fingers crossing*

[Johoohno]

This game is turning into a flakefest and that’s not good at all. However, back to Plum:

The SV vote I explained. Flave didn't explain the convenience or what's scummy about it

Possibly not, but I guess he referred to what I pointed out:

Snaps to life (in post post 106) after Shattered Viewpoint (post 101) calling her play style scummy in comparison to some other performance he seems to have seen by her

Doesn’t it seem very convenient that you find SV scummy right after he found you that? OMGUS comes to mind.

At best, you politely suggested one single time that I might 'feel free' to show something of my meta

post 122:”

A Plum game link here would fit nicely

, either by Plum or Shattered Viewpoint.”
post 147:”

@ Plum:

Feel free to give us your meta anyway, I'm actually waiting for it.”
post 169:”My vote is on her in wait of the meta I’ve called for so many times now.”

What’s interesting is that you end up voting me much in the same fashion you voted SV. I hope you are capable of seeing scums rather than people voting you.

@ Iecerint:

(Since you seem to be logged in fairly often): Could you elaborate on what makes me scummy? In post 224 you seem to understand where I come from, but in post 235 you all of a sudden appears interested in lynching me.

@ mod:

This game would benefit from an official vote count anytime soon now. (And an urgent replacement of Shattered Viewpoint would be excellent too.)

[Johoohno]

@ Plum:

My first vote on you is in the RVS of the game, but there is still a reason for it other than just throwing in a vote. I’m no big fan of RVS, hence my vote for you starting it up.

Almost every time when I checked in then something new has occurred around you that has been slightly odd or scummy (which is the reason for the vote to be left on you all along):

• post 55 where you paint everyone mentioned as townish (instead of trying to find scummy actions, which I also commented on in the last two lines in post 65)
  
• post 106 where you snap to life and vote SV right after he has accused you. post 101 by SV felt very earnest when I saw it, and at that time SV’s lurking hadn’t yet turned absurd. I felt as if there might be something behind and really wanted it to be revealed (hence the constant asking about the metas – though obviously I would have preferred SV to provide me with the link to where his opinion came from, but found it also odd that you didn't give any though asked for it).
  
• post 114 really felt weak, since I can definitely understand SV and why he doesn’t throw around his vote a lot, I play a bit like that too. More before than now I guess. When you later, in post 129 dismiss flava’s reasoning for being at you I obviously agree with him, calling your reasoning weak.
  
• post 234 hands me your meta from you, which I’m grateful for. I have just started looking at it but I would, as said before, very much have appreciated SV to hand his link instead. It’s also in this post you decide to vote me, without any strong arguments for doing so.

Due to all these small things that I’ve noted all along has made my vote stay on you. I have other suspects too, but others have been at them and gotten answers or responses out of them together with the questions I asked when necessary to me. I agree that SV dropping out now has rendered the question of where he got that feeling of your play so far a mystery unsolvable. I will check your meta (I haven’t had the time until now, since I only got up to speed on the posts at post 248), and when that is done (sometime the coming week) I will reevaluate my vote on you.

@ Snow_Bunny:

Your case on him in post 184 decent but not very strong. His response in post 187 feels like a newbie that dislikes anyone who finds him suspicious (which is a common reaction from a newbie, I felt the same way when I was new to the game). I really disliked the way you didn’t help him with your meta (post 192), especially since he seemed to do much work around it about Jack earlier in the game. I also felt as if your tone or aggression played up towards Vas in post 218. When he then searched and found meta himself in post 221 he made a thorough work and sticks to what he finds there. Now I haven’t checked that meta myself, but trust that others have/or will do so later if need arises due to my being more suspicious of him. I actually like him a bit better than you. I am not really sure how to read Vas yet due to his somewhat newbeish behaviour, but, he is not one of my top three scum candidates.

@ AlmagasterGM and Andrius:

An insightful post or two on what’s happened so far in the game would be most helpful.

[Johoohno]

Joh: Would you please elaborate on who are your key suspects and on what your cases against those are based upon?

My suspect cluster is: Snow_Bunny, Almagaster(SV), Jack, Ooba(mindgamer), Iecerint & Plum. The top two candidates are Ooba and Plum. But honestly, my suspicions of Plum partly has to do with SV’s earlier call for her playing differently, commented on earlier. Vas, since you are such a fan of Meta, would you mind checking Plum’s post 234 for her meta. I’ve skimmed it but haven’t really found any significant tells (meta isn’t my strongest weapon of choice).

You’ve got most of the reasons in my Post 169 With the following addendums:

• SB: Unwilling to provide meta (I know she claims that to be her regular play, but that doesn’t make it any better)
  
• Almagaster: post 276 is very scummy because he lists a lot of “finds” on Vas but no comments to them, and the player he is focused on is the second train which seems as if he just wants to save his own neck.
  
• Jack: 169 mostly sums it up, but see post 223 too.
  
• Ooba: Post 166 is where he is looking almost only at SV. Note how Plum is painted townie only for the reason of voting SV (this is really weak, though perhaps it’s I who is biased here since I see her as likely scum), and also note that almost all the entries there are focused on SV in one way or the other. Surely Ooba should be interested in other people but SV, but perhaps he doesn’t want to leave too many links to others in his play this first day?
  
• Iecerint: Post 223 also clarifies things, like how the debate with Jack in the beginning felt a bit staged.
  
• Plum: Pretty much everything is mentioned in post 169, but you find some more additions to it in post 248 and 257

With above said I’ll

unvote

vote: Ooba

I’m leaning town on Vas due to his meta reads and the feeling of curious newbie, I said that in post 257 too. Though if he gets lynched and flips scum I think Snow_Bunny is a likely partner. Anyhow, I very much would like Vas to answer Almagaster’s post 276 and, if possible, take the time to check Plum’s meta above, since you seem to be good at that.

I could pitch in a SV/Almagaster vote later, but not just yet, I want to see more of him before deciding if the tells on him are enough for that. (And Plum is obviously still a valid candidate but if I'm the only one seeing that and/or voting her it won't be enough come lynch or deadline.)

@ Mod:

You've somewhere written about a three week's deadline, would you mind posting a more exact date in next vote count?

~Deadline was posted on the first page. It is April 12. I will include it with the following vote counts~

[Johoohno]

Not much has been posted since I last checked in.

@ Andrius:

As far as I remember your predecessor had his vote on SD (but recently reading the game twice should make you a bit more aware of that than I?). I too, as Snow_Bunny, want you to take a stance and decide where you want your vote and why.

@ Everyone:

We only have five more days before deadline, so everybody need to decide on where to vote, and if you have more than one possible candidates should come out and say that.

@ mod:

If it's not too much trouble I'd really appreciate the vote counts listing the people not voting as well.

[Johoohno]

@ Andrius:

Yes it is very good that you’ve given us your top three scum candidates, but as I said earlier, you cannot just blurt that out without having one prime suspect since we’re pretty close to a deadline.

@ AlmastergM:

In post 276 is example 7 supposed to indicate fence sitting? Vas has an opinion there at least. But I must admit that you might have made me sway a bit. Perhaps I’m seeing Vas with too much recognition from my own first game where I was town and extremely careful with my vote, loathing lurkers and also uncertain of how to make the game proceed. Since Vas should be back anytime now from his V/LA I hope he return with promised defence plus a vote and explanation for it. I’m still not feeling townie feelings from you, I still feel your hunt for Vas a bit made in your own interest to stay alive and it is basically built up on tidbits someone else has mentioned already, you just put them together in one post. I am also waiting for your promised read on others soon.

@ Plum:

I went back to my notes and compared them to your post 55 and even though you only call one person townie that made the general feel of it a post of general defence or liking of players, especially since post 60 by vas also was painting townie on people. Al this together made me feel surprised and I also commented on it in post 65 the last two lines:
“I’m also amazed why it is discussed whom you trust, rather than whom you find suspicious (Post 55 by Plum and post 60 by Vas). But to be fair Vas mentioned Shadow Dancer as mildly scummy and when commented on that by Jack puts a vote there a few posts later.”
About your meta I have looked at it/skimmed it and as I said, nothing stuck out in any direction to me. Me asking you for meta, and you not providing it made my suspicion grow, but as said before, I would’ve preferred SV handing his link to us. Even if I’m not the best at finding things in meta reads doesn’t mean that there are people good at doing it, Vas might be one for instance. But when asked for meta I see it as the most beneficial thing for the town to hand it out then! And your last question to me in post 303

I have other suspects too, but others have been at them and gotten answers or responses out of them together with the questions I asked when necessary to me.

Do you mean to imply I haven't answered your questions? Do you have anything you want me to answer which I haven't?

was answered in my post 257

Almost every time when I checked in then something new has occurred around you that has been slightly odd or scummy (which is the reason for the vote to be left on you all along)

which is the same post as you took my quoted question from.

@ Flava:

And your reason for voting Ooba beside “two votes are better than one” is?

@ Vas:

(since he’s posted during my writing this post) I can only ask, it’s you who decides on the meta read. But more importantly I want you to vote and explain your vote as soon as possible.

[Johoohno]

Joh, ooba replaced Mindgamer. Look at my posts in the very beginning of the game for why I voted Mindgamer earlier. (least I think I voted. If not, I know I had suspicion there)

Am I to understand that your vote from post 23 which you explained later in your next post (post 119) is the reason for your vote on Ooba now? This is ridiculous, you vote a replacement for his predecessors opinions, something you reacted upon on page 1. Spit up a better reason Flava, if there is one.

Quick question - You seem to have a much stronger case on Plum - why me over Plum?

Plum is obviously still a valid candidate but if I'm the only one seeing that and/or voting her it won't be enough come lynch or deadline.

But you’ve actually outgrown her in scumminess since then. And below you’ll find why:

Post 147 - Johoonhno - Not much content - "Trying to appear active" post.

But you also ignored this

Post 26 - Johoohno - Odd. Why the need to single out Iecerint when some other players hadn't posted at all?

And this is what I wrote in post 26: “I'm a fan of being eager, however, I expect a new post from Iecerint very soon to help us read his role and not only his mood.” Perhaps you have noticed while reading through this game that I am no fan of posting before knowing your role, hence post 26. And as the game had just started prodding for others who weren’t there yet seemed pretty pointless.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but trying to find ties between scum partners in day one is hard and close to impossible unless anyone of the scums screw up.

"Note how Plum is painted townie only for the reason of voting SV (this is really weak, though perhaps it’s I who is biased here since I see her as likely scum)

Nice contradiction btw

Nice way to play this up, since it is in my quote that I don’t find it a big thing. Nevertheless I brought it up since Plum had come up very scummy in my eyes, and defending someone that scummy was scummy in itself.

My top candidate:
Joh
- Posts a lot of opinions, ask questions - but in general hasn't taken a stance
*No votes on D1 except RVS and mine
* "If those called upon above for further participation respond to that request I will present my top three list on my suspiociometer shortly." - Now who is trying to limit information on D1 for the town?
- When he finally has to make a choice of which player to lynch, chooses one on which he has the weakest case

1) Is asking questions and saying your opinion bad scum hunting methods in your eyes? Because I find it my surest way of getting info and a general feel of the other players and, in the end, finding scum. Are you saying that you don’t know who I find suspicious? Did you read post 281 for instance?
2) People vote differently, I for one, aren’t vote hopping that much, whereas others might switch vote the moment anyone new does something remotely scummy. And I hope you have realized while reading the game that the first vote has become more and more firm due to my read of Plum’s actions all through the game?
3) In what way am I limiting information when I ask those who haven’t posted much to step in and give their view of things?

This “case” of yours isn’t solid at all, you’re trying hard to make me scummy but with the evidence you’ve brought forth I’m not sure if you’re even convinced yourself.

One thing is true. We're close to deadline and, though I'm happy with the current lynch, it would be better if there was more consensus.

Quickly, to all of you: Between VV, SD and Andrius, which one do you prefer to lynch?

I, myself, find VV (duh) the best choice. Though, I'll want Andrius to answer for some things tomorrow.

What the heck is this list?

VV has 5 votes right?
Almaster has 3 (4 since VV will be willing to switch I assume)
SD has 2
Andrius has one.

The real choice is between Almaster and VV. Almaster is the better choice by far.

Any reason for leaving out the two votes on Ooba? And who were the ones you, at that time, had listed for Almaster? Other than that I prefer Almaster over Vas.

unvote

Vote: AlmasterGM

Though should there be a rush to vote for ooba I’ll switch to him, that is my preferred lynch today!

[Johoohno]

I still support an Almaster lynch. But feel free to get back in and defend yourself, talking is what townies should do!

I will be on approximately the same time tomorrow and will move my vote accordingly if I can save Vas or lynch Ooba.

[Johoohno]

I agree with Iecerint’s post 431 (=lynch Vas and let Ooba hammer), since Ooba said

(Just make sure we get a consensus on most townie player to hammer)

as if to sneak away from his first claim to hammer and thus getting rid of a townly player should Vas be town or have the hammer kill even as scum. I don’t believe Ooba and Vas being scum together, but it seems one of them is. And I’m actually not believing Vas any longer (I don’t have any flavour in power section either, plus his post 392. I know town can win if they gather all tokens, but this makes me wonder if Vas knows something else and made a slip?).

AlmasterGM should not tell who he’ll vig, that is just a way for the scum to create some power role loop. Remember that everyone is a power role in this setup and that makes the scum team have an arsenal of powers to work with. I played in a mini with tons of power roles where it was close to impossible as town to understand what happened after each night even though we had claimed.

On the requested extension it sounds like this is a reasonable time asking for it, but I will most likely not be able to log in tomorrow night. I’ll

Vote: Vas

putting him at L-2 according to last vote count.

[Johoohno]

Vote: Almaster

I don't think I would play a vig like you did in your referenced game, but I certainly don't agree with using it like you did in this game: killing people you have a neutral read on, where everyone have powers. Why not go for your top scums then? Since you are scum?!

[Johoohno]

@ AlmasterGM:

I don’t agree with your theory of not vigging top suspect that you put forth in post 538 and I don’t like it how you compare it with cop play (that neither should target top suspect). A vig gets rid of a player right away and getting rid of a scum is buying the town time (if I were vig I would never go for one I had a neutral read on, actually I would only target people scummy enough and if I had no candidate abstain my power that night).

I’m working around a theory here, that might explain the low number of kills for two nights in a stretch, but in order to see if it is valid we need to claim and I’m really not that sure having a mass claim is a good thing, though there are three different kind of claims we could do: role, name and target (if any). Need to think a bit more before I can take a more thorough stand on the claiming part now, but the answer to the question below would be most helpful:

@ Ooba:

Did you get to know if Almaster could kill at night or that he could kill once every night?

[Johoohno]

Sorry for the absence, work will keep me busy for some time now, don’t expect posts from me more than every second (IRL) day or so.

If it’s not possible to get enough playes to lynch

AlmasterGM’s

(a player who claims vig, kills someone he’s got a neutral read on, that being a person with very little connections to anyone else but a confirmed dead townie, and then mysteriously looses that ability) I could agree on

Flava

(who bases many of his votes on next to nothing) or

Andrius

(who often sits on the fence fishing). After that there is just a grey mush where the players jump on and off my scum-o-meter. Need to check back on day 1 and think some.

@ Iecerint and Jack:

I’d like you to comment what you feel about the other one.

Finally, seems as if I have to scrap my theory mentioned earlier.

[Johoohno]

@ Andrius:

In post 593 it sounds as if feel you have to pick a lynch candidate from Iec’s list, is Flava the one you are most suspicious of or just the one you like best from Iec’s list?

@ Ooba:

The theory in post 568 is the one I had to scrap.

@ Jack:

I’m still wondering what you feel about Iec?

@ Plum:

Yes I know that Iecerint said that he’d got a town investigation of Alm, but he sounds far from certain of that himself. I think it is quite likely that this setup has some kind of investigation immunity, target switcher, bus driver or other divine like ability to throw in a monkey wrench in the machinery.

@ Flava:

Is there something else beside Plum’s timing that makes you vote her? Why are you picking her over Iec, since you mentioned them being your top candidates, and you seemed pretty more interested in Iec last thing before night? I also noticed that you in post 566 referred to being suspicious of both Plum and Iec in post 209 which is quite some time back in the game. You seem to be pretty static in your scum hunt (this postbeing another example of that), is there anything that has gone on more recently that has made you waver in your suspicions or found new ones?

@ LordChronos:

Yes, Flava is at L-2, why do you ask?

[Johoohno]

@ Ooba:

Good point on Poseidon, but it is possible that the scum team has some kind of mechanism to prevent that counter win on D1.

Probable town

• Iec
  
• SD (because Iec says so)
  
• Ooba, as stated before.

In between

• Plum
  
• Lord Chronos.

My most probable scum cluster

• Alm
  
• Flava
  
• Andrius
  
• Jack.

Ooba bringing up the possibility of two scum teams make me go back to my theory. I was thinking if there was actually a limited number of Nk possible for the scums, like I used in this game on Jebus (last in linked post). That would make them reluctant to kill each night to hold out on their assigned kills. I don’t think they can use any number of night choices though, sounds far too swingy for a setup with this many power roles.

Perhaps a mass claim is beneficial at this moment. Need to think a bit on that.

[Johoohno]

Investigation galore:

I too find all these investigation powers suspicious, since we know that scum's WC revolves around the powers, what interest would they have in obtaining all those powers, apart from reaching the WC that is?

Fake claims or sanity issues:

If we have faked innocent claims LC's on Flava is the least likely one to be true, I can't say on the targets though who might've faked it, since they all seem likely targets from a townie perspective. If we have sanity issues I distrust both LC's on Flava, SD's on Andrius and Iec on Alm. But it sounds a bit too good for town to have a mason pair where they both can investigate with correct results.

Doubts:

And once I started doubting some things I went paranoid on a lot of things. Listing it here just to make sure the thoughts are out and discussed so that a few of them can be written off by the rest of the town.

• Ooba might have known or believed that VV's fake claim of killing the hammerer wasn't true, given that scum-ooba could have knowledge of the entire scum groups abilities.
  
• Alma’s killing power could be a scum NK just as well as a vig power, do we know anything about this for certain? And this call about a new power since the old one is lost, I don’t see how that fits with Ares? (perhaps that is what happens when you use your special, but at least the one who used the double night special should know as well then).
  
• One in the mason pair is a scum even though the other one thinks he knows the alignments of his partner (this one actually calls for some serious bastard modding, but still feels relevant to say, since, as mentioned above, two masons with confirmed alignment plus sane investigative roles are too good for town in a balanced setup).

My claim

I have some information to claim too, but it might be better to keep it hidden for some time to catch scums faking info. But if you feel that I'm your lynch today and you bring me to L-1 with a person willing to hammer I'll claim. Do so in good time before deadline in that case, so that there's time to regroup if necessary.

Preferred lynch:

I’d like to get your thoughts on all the things above, since I’m still fairly set for Alma, Flava or Andrius. If we decide to go for one of the uninvestigated I’m not sure who to pick out of Plum and Jack. I think I like Plum a bit better as scum, even though she made some fairly good posts and observations just before and after the nights that made me shift my earlier stance on her.

@ Flava:

Why do you want me lynched in 691 where you, in the same post, state that Jack and Plum are the best lynches, and then keep your vote on Plum. Who do you find best to lynch right now and, more importantly, why? (I don't buy Ooba calling Flava a VI, Flava has enough wits to realize that two confirmed masons won't last till endgame).

@ Alma:

A lot of people has claimed information since you last was here, what is your current favoured scum cluster?

I really dislike how Almaster has been missing without any explanation for quite a few days now.

@ Mod:

Please prod Almaster.

One last thing:

I remember two people saying that their powers kind of sucked, but I can't seem to find those posts right now. Does anyone else remeber who they were and can you in that case link me to those posts. And on the topic of neat links to Shadow Dancer and Andrius, do like this except for all the spaces: [ url = link to post] a text you want to be the link [ /url]

[Johoohno]

@ Andrius:

Now that you mention it I agree: LC's claim is less likely being insane since it's a one shot. (However if both Iec and SD have one shots that reduces the reliability of sane one shot investigations, unless of course, one of them is scum - I can't see both of them being scum though. And I'm pretty sure Iec said he had a one shot or such like, but I don't think SD has commented on that yet.) And about Ooba, VV didn't flip his alignment, only his role name. And as I think I've said before role names aren't the same as alignment.

God fathers:

I forgot to mention god fathers in my last post, but Andrius' posts brought that to mind. I am fairly certain this setup has GF's in it, partly due to all the, possibly sane, investigations, partly due to the fact my top trio for scums have all been investigated, and:

Claiming puny powers:

It seems as if this setup is loaded with powers useful by first sight. I find it suspicious that two players, Alma and Flava (see Andrius post above for quotes) claims to have weak powers. Furthermore it's a pretty efficient way to explain why you weren't NKed.

Now don't anyone of you go and claim

your abilities right away, wait until we decide if we're having a mass claim and the routines around that, or until someone is brought to L-1 with someone ready to hammer.

@ SD and Iece:

I wouldn't mind an open discussion between the both of you if SD should say his investigation is one shot or not (unless he has already specified that). That discussion could shed some lights on the on the mason pair alignment distrust I have.

Andrius: to quote a specific post you just click on the post letter head icon that looks like words "new document icon", then you get the link to that specific post.

[Johoohno]

All right, two things have been cleared from my side since my post 692

• Sanity seems to be more likely than not
  
• Masons town alignment seems to be more likely than not.

I don’t feel that the issues of a scum-ooba and scum-alma has been addressed yet though.

[Johoohno]

@ CryMeARiver:

Welcome. Please be quick with your read-up and your opinions, we're not having more than five days until deadline.

@ Ooba:

What’s the reason for this extremely careful phrasing in post 713: "- From my PoV, I am town " afraid of being caught lying? You also seem to become a bit restless and want me to claim ahead of schedule in post 715.

@ Shadow Dancer:

I do seem to appear scummy in almost all my games (I can only think of one where I wasn’t accused of being scum), no matter what my alignment is – check my wiki, all my games are there. It seems to be related to my play style, asking questions the way I do D1 isn’t considered townie for some reason.

Also, anyone interested in actually presenting a case on me to give me something to defend against? Just voting someone a bit haphazardly like drones won’t help town very much.

[Johoohno]

quick post before sleep.

People have a town read on Plum for some reason I can't fathom; you'll have to ask them about that.

And this explains your vote on me instead of Plum in what way? You are aware that you were the one starting the train on me today?

[Johoohno]

@ Poseidon:

Do not counter claim LC.

Unvote; Vote: LordChronos

Might as well claim here since it serves town: I have the ability to look for counters and LC does not have one (I found out N2). I'll keep my N1 choice secret for now.

@ LC:

Explain yourself.

I will be on for an hour or so now, while reading up on another game.

[Johoohno]

@ SD: Why can't Alma/CMAR/Whoever's ability not be a regular mafia NK?

@ SD again: Scum_LC claims Poseidon to fish out the real one, is that what you want?

I'm most interested in getting LC's response now.

[Johoohno]

Reading up till last post now, though I saw Ooba seems to want me to answer something. What?

[Johoohno]

Alright:

I am Poseidon!

I obviously still have a counter. I didn’t want to name claim since I saw the information I’ve got so far as a way of getting around me claiming Poseidon. My ordinary power works like an investigation, but I only get to know if the target has any counters or not (no matter if he’s had them since start or not).

My special is that I can redirect those targeting me to someone of my choice (all the ones targeting me on a given night will be redirected to the same person). From what I understand I’ll survive any NK’s, at least normals (I don't know about specials, and from what I can tell it might be possible that them mod has decided on an order of how to resolve specials should they interfer with one another). This is also the reason for why I’ve been doubting this Ares power claim. A townie vig and a redirector in the same setup, plus the vig supposedly could get the kill through anyway using his special. Seems a bit too much (or bastard modding).

@ LC:

It’s funny how you, in post 806, try to find theories of why I might flip town if I’m lynched and you’re not and leave out the possibility of me being Poseidon. The other ones (except for your scum buddies) doesn’t know your alignment, or mine.

About Ares NK ability:

I still haven’t been convinced that it’s not a mafia NK ability. In post 812 he (=DataStrokers) gives a lot of parameters, which he tries to boost to be more believable: He says he’s been investigated twice to be innocent, which isn’t true. He seems to be saying that Ares can’t be scum, but how do we know that? We haven’t seen any scum flips and don’t know any of their names.

@ Jack:

Your claim leaves a lot of things out. When can you be recruited, and how? And to answer your post 822: I don’t investigate who had a counter from the beginning, but if a given person has it at that specific time. We do know that they can shift hands.

[Johoohno]

I am Poseidon!

I obviously still have a counter. I didn’t want to name claim since I saw the information I’ve got so far as a way of getting around me claiming Poseidon. My ordinary power works like an investigation, but I only get to know if the target has any counters or not (no matter if he’s had them since start or not).

So its you or LC today. Thought you might be the only one possibility to CC LC. But we still need a Full claim from you today:
- N1 target? Result?
- N2 target = LC. Result
- Did you use your special?
- You got the result that LC doesn't have any counters at all? or did ya get the result that target did not have any specific counters? i.e Does your result PM indicate any chance of redirection - is it generic or does it say LC?

- N1 target: Flava (but from the mod answer I seem to have checked Snow_Bunny instead, got something to the effect of dead people don't have counters).
- N2 target: LC (no counter)
- Special (haven't used it yet)
- LC doesn't have any counters as far as I know. I said I'd check if LC had any counters and I got a negatory reply from the mod. I guess it could have been redirected as well, but both of us can't be Poseidon so one of us have to go.

@ Mod:

Vote count please!

[Johoohno]

Ebwop: N1: Alma (not Flava)

[Johoohno]

Great work in the end Jack and Andrius.

I really can't take any credit for this win, and town shouldn't feel bad at all - this game was swingy as hell (far too swingy for my taste - DN: did you calculate on mafia's and town's worst and best possible outcome to balance this?)

I really hated not having any good safe claims and I didn't even feel as the informed minority since we didn't know if all townies were within the twelve olympians or if other deities were used.

I'm totally okay with giving our scum night talk thread (guess we're only waiting for Plum to chip in now).

[Johoohno]

@Joh

Why did you CC Poseidon?

Plum is right, I didn't have any safe claims, and if I hadn't CC Flava he would've been yet another certified townie, since everyone believed Poseidon had to be in the game.

I did at some point think about claiming Hephaistos and that would've worked out since Snow was dead. But with all of the townies belonging to the 12 Olympians claiming one would be risky.

[Johoohno]

Hercules isn't a god! And I didn't dare playing Demeter since I thought she might be in the game due to the double night thing. Hestia felt like a certain scum claim (since she felt too miniscule to actually be in the game. The race then was between Hephaistos, Hermes and Dionysos.

[Johoohno]

And, as I said, I didn't want FF to be certified Poseidon to put him among the certified townies (even though there was a speculating about him being an SK I thought that would blow over sooner rather than later).