Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[Sotty7]

/confirm

[Sotty7]

Vote: Percy

To get it out of my system early.

[Sotty7]

Point taken.

However, I think we have differing ideas of what is acceptable in RVS, and you're grasping at straws if you think this is the best reason to vote someone at this point.

It page two, what better reason is there at this point?

[Sotty7]

Eh it's the start of the game, I was finding my feet. Questing is how I do that.

Right now I don't see your RVS vote as scummy as Vi seems to find it. I was wondering what your point was about "you're clutching at straws" but your right she could be voting Hohum. But I see Vi just being Vi, she's like a dog with a bone when you're in her sights. I don't find it scummy.

What do you think of flinter Zach?

Do you think Hohum is scum for saying that?

With profound, 100% confidence unheard of before on this site... Probably.
I would be voting hohum right now, but I think my interview with the prestigious winner of the Most Contrived Random Vote award is still worth keeping on schedule.

I've noted the fact that you would sooner play to maintain your status than to catch scum.

Hohum trying to make out that Vi doesn't find Zach scummy is bizarre. From that post it looks like Vi has two suspects, Zach and hohum.

Fine. I'll rephrase.

You would sooner play to do... what ever the fuck it is you're doing right now than to catch scum.

What makes you think Vi isn't scum hunting with her push on Zach?

Unvote, Vote:Hohum

flinter, why no vote yet?

[Sotty7]

Lot of vote-hopping early on here, Zach. Is this normal for you?

Is Zach scummy to you? What do you think of Vi? Some opinions from you would be nice.

The reason why I don't yet have a vote out, is because I haven't really read into the game yet. I have read the game, but nothing really stood out. So I would need a good read of the game first.

I find xreck to be inproductive. Voting for votehopping is not so great, asking for games and then saying the person clearly is concious about his scumplay, is almost setting someone up. But this doesn't have to be done by scum, and I think it is "bad" play.

Okay, you say nothing has stood out to you, only to go on and say what stood out to you..? You also seem to paint reck as scummy while giving him an excuse for his play. What is your read of reck right now? I also think it is a reach to say nothing stands out so far. For only being 4 pages into the game, I'd say there is plenty to comment on.

Not liking Vi's vote on ekiM. I'm not following the logic here, seems to be actively avoiding hohum.
Reck's pressure on Zach is bad. Demanding he provide scum meta only to push it away when provided. Doesn't compute, why ask in the first place?
Zach feels town to me right now and I liked Triple D's last post.

[Sotty7]

Fence sitting? I don't think so. But to be more clear for you Reck my top three at the moment is hohum, you and Locke. flinter is creeping her way up there. I have no idea why you have a gut town read on her, I could understand a newbie read.

My answer to your question flinter is a, a calm approach. Unless it becomes increasingly stupid and I start to lose my temper over a period of time. I would say that is true of both my town and scum play though.

Gonna answer your own question?

[Sotty7]

you mean I missed one? I did say what I thought about reck.

Or did you mean my own question?

Yeah I meant your question. Although if you want to wait until others answer or chose not to answer I'd be fine with that.

ekiM, you highlight recks vote on me, any reason why? What's your impression of it?

[Sotty7]

Sotty: I'm taking a particular interest in Zach's early vote-hopping because we literally just finished another game with each other, as you might know (Mini 918 for those who don't). He replaced into that as scum and I remember him putting his vote about very little. He also wasn't particularly active (although part of that was completely out of his control). As for whether I find it scummy, not particularly. What Vi called his 'activity police' act after only 24 hours I thought was unjustified, but I can see why town-Zach would be looking at me for lurking early on when in his experience I've been active as town and lurky as scum. What I found a little odd is that he said his random vote was completely arbitrary when he was obviously interested in pressuring me early on in the game. In short, getting a mild town read off Zach early on, I get the impression he's genuinely interested in finding scum.

So let me get this straight. So you pushed and questioned Zach because his behavior (vote-hopping, lots of posting) was the exact opposite of your scum experience with him? So what was the point to the questions? If you are getting a town read off him shouldn't you be looking else where? The way you questioned him made it look like you were trying to make him look scummy but you didn't commit and now you are backing a away from it when other players have called him likely town.

Unvote, Vote: Locke

Not liking Vi's vote on ekiM. I'm not following the logic here, seems to be actively avoiding hohum.

Much as I wouldn't mind a vote on hohum, right now I'm looking at someone else. Again, multiple suspects, one vote. Hold me accountable to the hohum suspicion when I'm done exploring.
Until then, what is

your

opinion on ekiM?

Fair enough I suppose. My opinion of ekiM so far is a weak town read, I like the tone of his posts. I haven't seen any red flags. This is why I questioned your vote.

I don't have any definite reasons for why Zack is scum, and I'm not even convinced of it myself yet. Swinging around your vote, especially in the beginning, isn't terribly scummy, I just don't have any other leads.

Both you and flinter are guilty of the “oh I don't know”'s. If you don't have any leads, go and dig some up. What is your opinion on the post restriction talk that is going on between Percy/Ort/Hohum?

Same question to you flinter. I can only take so much standing around with your hands in your pockets doing nothing.

Edit: I see you vote Kyle flinter using meta as your case. Links to said games? On the surface your case looks weak.

The Percy case has some bite. I have seen him FOS as town so that point isn't much of one, but I am guessing that part is more policy on top of everything else brought up. I didn't really think if Vi had a post restriction during her first few posts until it was asked by hohum. Probably because of my unfamiliarity with the theme. But to say discussing a post restriction gives the scum info is a stretch to me. I probably would have questioned it if I had noticed.

Hohum's jump on to Percy is surprising. Hohum, are you happy with Vi's play now?

[Sotty7]

Alright, I looked at it again, and Flinter's reasoning on me is enough for me to

vote: Flinter

Your reasoning is because of the fact that I usually just follow the town, and never do anything that stands out, and because I'm standing out more this game, I'm scum. That is honestly terrible reasoning, and makes no sense whatsoever.

If the reason is so terrible why wait so long to vote?

He reads the rules: he is eager, and he is in a state of mind where he is paying attention to the game. Town.

So scum never read the rules? Gotcha.

Sotty's deflection is noted

How is this deflection? I answered Zach's questions and then questioned him about you, a player I thought he could have voted for using the same reason he voted me. I was fishing for a link between the two of you. He responded by voting you but hasn't actually put any other real pressure on you. Not sure I like that.

flinter I'm still waiting on this meta links of yours.

[Sotty7]

Locke, you didn't make any commitment about Zach's play other to question it in a vague manner. You gave no insight to it before he answered and to me that looks like you are trying to have it both ways. By all means question someone, but it looked like you were setting him up for a vote because you weren't asking questions of any other players.

I think you smelt an easy wagon that has since fallen apart.

[Sotty7]

An easy wagon? Was Zach being wagoned at the start of the game and I missed it? I don't know Zach's play all that well and I certainly don't know whether he likes to put his vote about at the start of games. From my perspective, I'd just lynched him as scum and here he was playing completely differently from what I'd seen in that previous game. That was my primary focus at the start of the game because naturally that was fresh in my mind and the first thing I picked up on when reading through. If my failure to acknowledge other players in the first two or three pages is scummy to you, there's not a lot I can say about that.

Vote hopping is often seen as scummy, that's what I mean by easy wagon. I can kinda see your point to a degree, but my gut reaction to your questioning of Zach was that you found it scummy. only then to come back and say it was probably town. It just doesn't ring true to me.

sotty, it was the one Vi already used. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0 I thought you would already have read Vi's post. The other game is ongoing.

Oh my bad, I must have missed where she said that. Thank you.

Locke (and sotty, and others, if they want to be in this group), I think we disagree about how someone should find scum. You are looking for general scumtells: (active) lurking, bad logic, connections between two players where you don't know either allignement etcetera. But scum know these tells too, and are avoiding them. Town can make a mistake. All this makes that mislynches are quite common (at least, in the games I read)

I think this is ineffective. I believe that you find scum by looking at someone's motivations. "Why did he do that?", taking in consideration how he or she is as a person. I don't expect big cases from kyle (though I would be positively surprised if he made one), for example.

I actually use (or try to) both methods of scum hunting you listed here. The logical and the mental. Why are you willing to discard one whole section of scum hunting? Do you not think using both can give you a better overall impression of someone?

Zach his posts on

page three

are seriously weak: Reck had a point here. Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different, and weak.

Active lurking is scummy. Besides, the reason I voted you was because you weren't scumhunting. The efforts you've been putting forth are just really weak at this point. I don't really feel like they are genuine and are more forced suspicions in response to the fact that people find your lack of scum hunting suspicious.

I have bolded the two key words: page three. Oh, and they are. I already said that. But seemingly, they did make sense, as you are not even trying to argue, you are only trying to discredit me.

how did we call that: ad hominem?

Nothing you quoted there by Zach amounts to an ad hominem attack if that is what you are suggesting.

Kyle

Alright, I looked at it again, and Flinter's reasoning on me is enough for me to

vote: Flinter

Your reasoning is because of the fact that I usually just follow the town, and never do anything that stands out, and because I'm standing out more this game, I'm scum. That is honestly terrible reasoning, and makes no sense whatsoever.

If the reason is so terrible why wait so long to vote?

I

dislike

Sotty7 and her Locke Lamora vote. I'm not reading Locke Lamora as scum; the reasoning behind Sotty's vote (and flinter chiding him) isn't convincing and his "tone of voice" reads Town.

I'm not seeing his post 104 in the same light as you then. I would ask you to explain exactly what you mean about tone of voice with examples, but it is probably one of those things you can't really explain.

flinter what do you think of reck now?

[Sotty7]

Sotty: I was unsure of Zach's motives, so my tone was naturally a little suspicious. I asked some questions, got a better read on his motives and drew my conclusions. That's it. Anything else is just you reading into it what you want to read into it.

So are you saying I have no legitimate reason to question your tone or method of investigation at all?

[Sotty7]

What do you class as legitimate? If you think my tone or method of investigation is scummy, then surely you have a legitimate reason to question me? I'm trying to draw a line under it because there's nothing else that I can say in response. I've explained my frame of mind and my aims with the questions; you've detected what you think is me trying to make Zach look scummy and then backing off. If my explanation has not satisfied you, I'm not sure what you're looking for. As far as I can see, the only way this discussion would continue is you keep saying you think I'm scum who made a failed attempt at making Zach look bad, and I keep repeating the reasons I already gave for my actions.

Well I asked that question because of response you gave in post 169 made it sound like you thought my questioning of you was completely ridiculous. But I re-read the post this morning and it doesn't feel as pissy as it did yesterday. With that said you are right, we can only go in circles at his point so lets put a pin in that and move on.

What do you think of Vi's case on Percy? Any opinions on ortolan?

flinter, your post 179 is awful. Look up what ad hom is then get back to me. Also any input as to why hohum is becoming more townie for you?

I think going for Reck is wrong.

So you think he is town?

Although I like that DDD is finally off me, his vote makes me doubt him a bit. He bandwagons.

What is your obsession with Triple D's vote?

[Sotty7]

My post 190 was me questioning my two top suspects, I think it is ridiculous to call it “fluff” Getting answers from flinter is like pulling teeth. I have asked her on several occasions what she thinks of reck and each time she gives me nothing but vague crap. I want to know if she thinks he is town or not at this point. She is defending his wagon without really taking a firm stance.

The rest was me questioning Locke, but I am starting to think I am sniffing up the wrong tree there.

Reck is making mistakes, not being scummy. The wagon might be appealing, but is quite a random one.

I know very well what ad hominem means. As far as I know, Zach didn't even read my accusations, he just went on how bad I am as a player.

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar) Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach

. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right. Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.

No, this is just bullshit. How can you reason that he never read your post? He called it weak that doesn't mean he didn't read it. It more likely means he read and thought it was weak like he said. Ad hominem is a buzz word you're using here to make your vote look good. It doesn't work.

You have also abandoned your case on Kyle for this. Why?

The reck wagon isn't random, don't claim that it is. Reck has done things that people find scummy, that's why he is getting votes. You also say the wagon is appealing, why do you think that?

Although I like that DDD is finally off me, his vote makes me doubt him a bit. He bandwagons.

What is your obsession with Triple D's vote?

I am pretty important.

He just made that vote. I am pretty sure I am allowed to comment on that, but maybe Sotty has a reason why I shouldn't?

Sure, but it was the second time you mentioned triple D in particular. Why the focus on him and not the others on your wagon?

The Percy/Hohum/Ort tangle has my attention. I found hohum's early game play scummy, but although he is aggressive he is actually providing content and looks to be scum hunting I am starting to feel better about him. He has a point about Ort's selective reading and I'd like Percy's input from that.

Zach seems to only appear in the thread to defend himself or attack flinter. Not liking that.

This thread could also do with more Triple D. I'd rather reck be replaced than straight out lynched at this point.

[Sotty7]

unvote, Vote:flinter

[Sotty7]

I'm saying you're tunneling and coasting. I don't think it is like you to ignore the rest of the player list this much even when you do tunnel.

So fixing that would be great.

[Sotty7]

Flinter, I'll ready admit that I have been defending Zach because your case on him has no basis. His vote hopping wasn't scummy and he didn't personally attack you. So there is no credible leg for you to stand on, I'll defend any player who comes under such crap attacks.

Percy also called your case on Zach bad. Why didn't you ask him why he was defending Zach?

[Sotty7]

I said some stuff. Post 214?

[Sotty7]

He has a point about Ort's selective reading

What point does he have about my "selective reading" exactly? Why didn't you offer an opinion on Percy?

I already have offered an opinion on the early Percy case. I don't think that it was scummy to ask about a post restriction like hohum did, I think Percy was reaching there. Other than that reading the exchange with you and hohum I don't find Percy that scummy, I agree with some of the stuff he said in his last post RE: flinter.

[Sotty7]

My opinions on reck are in the thread. He was scummy for his early attack on you and I think he needs to either get his head into the game or be replaced.

I agree with your initial assessment with flinter replacing out like she did and it looking bad. Will check to see if replaced out of all her games or just this one though.

[Sotty7]

My opinions on reck are in the thread. He was scummy for his early attack on you and I think he needs to either get his head into the game or be replaced.

I agree with your initial assessment with flinter replacing out like she did and it looking bad. Will check to see if replaced out of all her games or just this one though.

On a 2nd read of your iso, I notice that you did comment on Reck in 214. I asked mainly because an opinion on Reckoner from you wasn't jumping out at me.

I wish search were still up because I'm very interested in what other games flinter is in and her status in those games.

Use google. She seems to be in at least one other game atm.

[Sotty7]

Weekends kick my ass, I will try and catch up this afternoon. If not first thing on Monday.

[Sotty7]

It's kind of hilarious that people are linking Sotty and Zach, unless I have the mafiascum family tree wrong. [/offtopic]

It is pretty funny really. Zach and myself are married and on top of that have played a ton of mafia games with each other so we're going to be linked. We have a lot of meta to work with and right now I just feel Zachtown. Doesn't mean I'm not going to push him, but it does mean I am going to call out BS attacks when I see them. flinter's was a prime example of a complete tosh case.

Of course abuse of meta and all that, he

could

be playing me, but I don't think so.

flinter is still playing in one other game at the moment but she isn't posting much, seems to be busy with school. Still she chose this game to leave there has to be a reason behind that. Now this “replacing out =scum” is somewhat weak seeing as her activity is low else where so I am going to leave that.

I still think that her push on Zach was awful. Considering her Kyle case was quite a bit stronger I have no idea why she would abandon it.

I am going to need to go back and re-read the whole Ort/Hohum/Percy interaction and get it straight in my head. I will get that done by the end of the day.

Can't say I am against a Reck lynch, I just think Jack is more likely to result in a scum flip.

[Sotty7]

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

She posted that she had issues with school. You're reaching.

I also see a Vi wall I need to read.

[Sotty7]

I'm not the type of player to gather a bandwagon to my cause by pressuring others unless I am utterly convinced I have scum or the deadline is coming, just my style. I don't think I bullied flinter, I wanted her to explain herself better and actually reason her cases. She did start painting me as someone who was pushing her too hard by saying things like "you just think I suck" etc. But I wasn't treating her any differently from anyone when I push them.

Locke's vote on me in my opinion is poorly reasoned. Reck hasn't even bothered to ask me one question or push me in anyway. If you actually have a question or something you want me to explain Vi then put it out there. Otherwise there is little I can do but ignore your push like I have with Locke and reck.

[Sotty7]

Of course abuse of meta and all that, he

could

be playing me, but I don't think so.

Which is a funny thing for you to say, because you generally tend to post something like this when you are scum to keep the door for Zachscum open just a crack. When you're town, you generally don't cast this kind of doubt on your reads of me.

Also, I can count on a hand with exactly 0 fingers the number of times I have actually been able to successfully play you as scum.

On the other side of the coin, the number of times you have played me as scum... well, the number's a lot higher than 0.

That was a counter to someone who was bound to say "Zach could be abusing his meta"

I'm not going to come anywhere near voting for you today, you're my strongest town read at this point.

[Sotty7]

I can think of one game you fooled me but that was like two years ago (?) and a game were I was a jester and busy doing my own thing. But yeah I tend to bust you pretty hard, you're right about that.

[Sotty7]

No question except the usual one.

I'm not the type of player to gather a bandwagon to my cause by pressuring others unless I am utterly convinced I have scum or the deadline is coming, just my style.

"Deadline Approacheth; Fatalism Reigns In the Face Of Impending Doom", end quote.
Do you still hold to your Jack vote?

Yup, I thought my catch up post made that clear. I think that slot is likely to yield scum. Jack's posting has been better but I can't just shrug off flinter's play. Also in his pushing of hohum he seems to be suggesting flinter's bailing in this game is scummy.

I would switch to reck if we needed a lynch. I can't see myself voting for hohum.

Also no, we don't share comps right now. That would be a little strange switching on and off during our last exchange at the end of the last page.

Zach post above makes me feel even more so that Jack should be today's lynch. That's a big backtrack.

[Sotty7]

You don't think the replacing out means much. So your whole case is based on flinter attacking Zach? And you're sure he's town, because you have good meta on him. Which flinter doesn't have access to. See the problem here?

The problem was her case wasn't even close to good. She misused ad hominem to make it look like it was something. She abandoned a reasonable Kyle case for it simply because Zach was pressuring her. I don't see a townie motivation for that, do you?

You're arguing with your wagon-mate that the wagonee isn't scummy? Is flinter really your biggest suspect?

Just because I find someone scummy doesn't mean

everything

they do in thread is auto scummy. I keep my mind open and I thought Zach was reaching a little there although I see his thought process.

Yes flinter/Jack was/is my number one suspect which is why I have my vote on that slot

What specifically about her play?

I feel like I am on constant repeat, but her weak case on Zach combined now with the back tracking in post 331.

Why? For both.

reck because he isn't actually doing anything in the game. He's not scum hunting, seeing as he has parked his vote on me since the opening of the game and done absolutely nothing to pressure me. I can't recall who else he finds scummy at this point which isn't good.

Hohum because I don't see the case against him. It seems to amount to hohum is abrasive, I don't see how he has been scummy as the day progressed. I did intially find him scummy with his pushing of Vi, but he has fallen down my list a little as the game progressed because he is actively calling people on their BS, AKA scum hunting.

= = = = = =

I did just re-read the Percy/Hohum/Ort love triangle and I'm not seeing how hohum is scummy from this. I don't agree with Percy that hohum misrepp'ed him. Percy seems to try and paint hohum as active lurking in his vote post and I'm not buying that.

Ort seems to just fall into his hohum vote after being goaded into it. He also quickly abandons it. I don't like that that whole exchange.

I will say the solid point against hohum is brought up by Jack:

If you think something is scummy enough for a

final vote

, it doesn't take you almost an hour to make up your mind about it. And if you think it's that obviously lynch worthy, going out of your way to post a supporting evidence link is a sign that you are worried about coming under fire for it.

I would like to here hohum's explanation to that.

[Sotty7]

I didn't agree with her case on Zach. Actually I didn't understand what she was saying at all. The bolded above seems to be speculation. Why isn't it possible she actually thought her case was credible?

I suppose it is possible, I just don't think that it was. Her vote was reactionary because Zach said her case on Kyle was weak. She then started to say that he was personally attacking her which I believe was a smoke screen. This is my interpretation of her vote.

I don't know what more you want from me ekiM, I saw flinter as scummy and the more I pressured her and questioned her the worse it got. It is clearly all there in the thread for you to read. If you don't agree, you don't agree. But nothing you have said has convinced me otherwise, you think flinter was a weak player, I don't and I am not going to cut her slack for building weak cases.

I guess the question is now, do you find me scummy for my pushing of flinter?

The case, I think:

Early obsession with Percy to the exclusion of the rest of the game.
Saying his vote on xRx was final.
Taking an hour to make that final vote, "he posted a couple times after xreck had his "K. lynch me" post and only later voted him, and his vote then makes it sound like he's ok with auto-lynching people who do what xreck did, and yet he didn't mention it earlier. They way he included a link is scummy."
Caring about xRx threatining to replace, but ignoring flinter replacing out when he said he suspected her.

I don't know why you say the case is "he's abrasive". Only people defending him have tried to make it about that, as far as I can see. The problem is him sticking it to xRx, and the way he went about it.

I will agree hohum hasn't been as forthcoming as most players and that is an issue. I already stated that I agreed with Jack's point against hohum RE:the final vote. But Percy's vote seemed a lot to do with his actual dislike of hohum and how he approached the game.

I did just re-read the Percy/Hohum/Ort love triangle and I'm not seeing how hohum is scummy from this. I don't agree with Percy that hohum misrepp'ed him. Percy seems to try and paint hohum as active lurking in his vote post and I'm not buying that.

hohum made a huge deal out of something minor in a way that rang false for me. Then he stuck with it for ages. I don't follow the last sentence.

Are you talking about the post restriction thing here or the post about lurking? Also the last sentence is talking about this:

Unvote, Vote: hohum

For:
1. Overdefensiveness (both wrt myself and ortolan)
2. Malicious misrepresentations of my play
3. Inconsistent interaction between different players and selective reading of the game
4. Overall active lurking and lack of content.

I think hohum needs just as much pressure as xRx right now, and I think he has a better chance of being scum.

Defensiveness isn't a scum tell.
I don't agree there was a misrep.
Three I can concede.
Four is just out right false. He's been providing content, just content Percy didn't agree with.

[Sotty7]

That would be a good point if I hadn't questioned you or called you out in this game when I have. We agree on flinter/Jack but I think that's about it. I don't know your opinion on hohum for example, or Percy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#2175115
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#2175383
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#2186937
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01#2193901

You're just paranoid that I am always scum

[Sotty7]

I'm not ignoring you Percy just had a few other games to post in before coming back here. I probably should have mentioned I was coming back.

= = = = = =

Percy, you say you agree with Vi's reads in post 360 but then go onto say that you are undecided on him. Why?

The reason I gave my opinion on the hohum case was because ekiM asked me for it. Simple. The reason I went back to re-read it all was because of your question and I realized I wasn't 100% sure about what you were talking about. I needed to give it some fresh eyes. I was apparently too wrapped up in flinter.

Basically I don't believe your difference between hohum and Ort. I would have thought that was clear when I went back and talked about your case. Ort has proven his selective reading by asking me something I had already given an opinion on. If he wanted something more in depth like you are asking then why didn't he follow up on it?

The way Ort fell into his Hohum vote and then abandoned it is scummy to me, were as your case on hohum seems to come a more genuine place even if I don't agree. That is the difference between you and flinter, she felt fake to me, you didn't.

Here I'll clarify each of the points I raised.
1.

Over

defensiveness - You note that defensiveness isn't a scumtell, but being overdefensive

is

a scumtell. I concede that this isn't one of my strongest points (in that it verges on playstyle criticism), but he not only lashes out at anyone who attacks him, he's also accused

every person who has ever voted for him of being scum

.

This isn't true because I voted for hohum and I don't remember him accusing me. Can you explain why overdefensiveness is a scum tell and simple defensiveness isn't?

2. Misrepresentations - Firstly, it was his branding me a lurker, and implying I was lying about my modding commitments. That jab was a misrepresentation of my play so far; it felt like he saw my "sorry I'll be on tomorrow" post and did whatever he could to twist that into an attack on me; it's the kind of non-discriminatory knee-jerk case building that screams scum to me. Secondly, his characterization of the post restriction exchange as me "going on the offensive" was really the backbone of his case against me, even though I was posting only to clarify my position, and even stated that it was a very weak tell, if anything at all. This links back to 1.

I'll give you the lurker thing. Your presence in the thread wasn't strong at the time and still really isn't, but you weren't lurking. The modding thing is his opinion a stretch to call it a misrep same with the deal about the PR stuff. Misrep is such a buzz word and I just don't agree with you here.

4. Active lurking - Again you accuse me of personal dislike, which is not the case. I'll answer this with another question: If xRx is lynched flips town, how will you feel about hohum's play today? I'm happy to concede that scum-xRx safely rules out hohum-scum-with-xRx, but looking at him in ISO and I think the active lurking label is apt. Also links back to 3 - if you think 3 is good, why not 4?
Finally, he hasn't posted since Saturday, and then only to defend himself (without actually answering any of the questions put to him), and there's less than 48 hours until deadline. He locked on his vote and hasn't come back.

If xRx flips town I will be taking a second look at hohum but I have already agreed the locking in and timing of the vote is weak and I don't get it. He needs to answer it.

Not commenting on all the players isn't quite the same as active lurking. Active lurking implies you are posting without providing any content, you can't claim that hohum hasn't generated content.

OK, those are two very different things; I'm not voting hohum because I "dislike" him, but I am voting him based on how he's approaching the game, because I think he's approaching this game in a scummy fashion. Why is that a bad thing?

I think he pissed you off talking about the modding and then you have made things fit the case, like the use of misrepresentation. I don't see it. I agree there are points that hold water, but not everything you have thrown at him sticks. If you had just pushed the legit scummy stuff there wouldn't be a problem but I think you are trying to beef your case up when it doesn't need it.

= = = = =

It also makes sense with your really dodgily timed vote on me so close to deadline, so you can avoid taking responsibility for membership of a viable wagon.

Sotty, get over here and tell me how many times I've avoided taking credit for a wagon I've been on.

Yup, this is how Vi plays, slapping that vote were ever her current suspicions lie. I don't remember her shirking any wagon blame, which is a pretty mean feat considering she starts a lot.

Wagons I would support today

Jack
Reck
Ort
Locke

[Sotty7]

Huh? Did I say the problem is "he hasn't been forthcoming"? No, I didn't. Just like I didn't say the problem was he's abrasive. Again, you try to pretend the hohum case is about something that it isn't, something weaker...

Your wild speculation that Percy is voting out of pique is so irrelevant. Why do you focus on that early exchange so much.

You agree with Jack's point about the final vote and it taking long. What do you think about him ignoring flinter, his suspect, replacing out? Why do you ignore that point.

I can't understand your line of thinking. You agree with or ignore the strongest points against hohum, yet you won't consider lynching him today. Hrm.

Well I suppose I will put the lynching vote on him if he was run up and my vote was needed. I just don't agree with the bulk of the case and

still

think Jack (who hasn't exactly been posting up a storm in the deadline rush) is more likely scum.

I was just telling you what I agreed with and what I didn't. The flinter point could suggest a connection but the scummiest thing hohum has done is lock his vote in as final in a late reaction to reck. That's how I stand.

[Sotty7]

*Sigh*

Still very much willing to lynch Jack, Reck and Ort. This are my top three picks.

Second the deadline extension request

[Sotty7]

How do you feel about Locke now Sotty?

I don't like him. As soon as I gave him the benefit of the doubt and went after flinter he just lurked. His catch up posts aren't very moving. I think he is scummy he has just lurked his way down my list which in itself isn't a good thing.

[Sotty7]

I'm getting a bit behind here lately. Once today is over I should be able to catch up. Sorry.

[Sotty7]

Jahudo do you think Ort and Vi are scum together?

Wagons I am interested in: Jack, Colbat, Locke

Jack still because of the flinter scumminess.
Colbat because of Ortlan's vote on Hohum after being goaded only to abandon it ASAP after. Also his attacks with Vi hold no weight making it personal for no reason.
Locke mostly I feel like his lurking is tactical. No one mentions him he filters away in the background. People call him out he posts.

Reck, I think your push on Zach was scummy but that was so long ago now and a lot of stuff has happened. You seemed to have some what caught up now but I was willing to lynch you mainly for your lack of effort in this game. I don't know if you are scum or not, you need to post moar.

I'm baffled by 498.

This.

I'm going to go ahead and;

Unvote, Vote: Cobalt

I am seeing a lot more support for a Cobalt lynch than a Jack lynch and my vote breaks the tie and puts Cobalt at lynch -2. But I am willing to switch to any of the three wagons at this point.

[Sotty7]

Quick fire day, nice.

My initial gut reaction on seeing the flip was Locke and Jack as partners. I'm going to do some reading before I place a vote, but it is likely going on Locke.

ekiM what do you think of Hohum now?

[Sotty7]

Just catching up on the last few posts before I start my ISOs.

I didn't see this question first time round. I wasn't really conscious of the fact I was voting xReckonerx when I made that post, it was just I guess that I strongly reacted against what I saw as flinter's bullying/pushing a mislynch on kyle which I know scum is likely to do. I will say more recently that I explicitly feel reckoner is not as likely to be scum as I first thought...

After such a weak excuse and jumping onto flinter, xRx looks more scummy (not less), whilst flinter/Jack looks slightly more town.

Why does Jack look more town from this move?

DDD's "case" on Sotty is meh, but Sotty's lack of involvement with ortolan is actually a really telling tell... I've seen it happen a lot, and I know when I'm scum, I either bus the hell out of my partners or try to ignore them for the most part.

Well that's you. What do you think of Ort not talking about DD, Zach and Jack on top of that?

I can't really defend against weird vibes from my tone Triple D. I don't really see why scum ignoring me is such a big tell but when the other people are brought up it means nothing. I'm not buying your explanation either, it all seems pretty contrived for you to keep your vote on me. I also don't think you should be taking the credit for the Ort wagon, you were pushing it near the deadline and that's about it.

[Sotty7]

Locke

Still

think his early questioning of Zach was awful. The open ended question he threw his way just looked like he was setting Zach up to pounce on him but he pulled out on that when no one else bit (and after Reck got heat for his poor case.) I vote him for this and he just reasons a OMGUS vote on me that is poorly reasoned. ekiM also agreed with my thought process at the time and it just gets noted without any real pressure, ever. Weak.

At this point my attention has turned to flinter and Locke posts a V/LA over the weekend. When he comes back suddenly I'm not scummy enough for a vote any more, but still scummy enough for suspicion to be cast on me.

Right, my main thoughts and responses to people:

Jahudo: I usually unvote when I vote for someone else. I rarely do it by itself. I hadn't unvoted ekiM because I wasn't yet inclined to vote for someone else.

Sotty: I voted for you because it felt like you were misrepping me and basing your whole case on what you perceived to be the implications of my posts, not the posts themselves.

Reckoner is bothering me now. His early bad vote on Zach looked more like town-Reck to me but his 'lynch me' attitude does not match to what I know of him from Lost Mafia. He seemed committed to that game throughout D1 even when he was frustrated at being wagoned. How much of this is down to him not having much time to post is hard to tell but I find the AtEish tone very scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Reckoner

Zach: you suggested that Sotty is playing to her scum meta by casting doubt on her suspicions of you, then you didn't follow it up at all. Does this mean you don't really think Sotty is scummy for doing so?

To me it looks like he has more of a reason to stay on me over voting for Reck. The Reck wagon had more steam than mine so this is the classic making himself open to either. He also asks Zach a question about my scum meta that he doesn't follow up on which looks pretty bad. Makes me believe it wasn't even a genuine point in his own mind.

He only mentions Ort after I ask him a direct question about him.

As for Ortolan, I think he's made some easy votes on Reckoner and Flinter and hasn't offered much else.

And then only to speak out against his wagon:

Vi, although that lynch would never happen at this stage, is increasingly pinging my scumdar; I particularly don't like his recent vote on ortolan which is in clear contrast to his call for bigger wagons and I feel it's too close to deadline for a major change of direction. I'm also dubious of him saying he's having a hard time getting reads; it doesn't seem to fit with the tone of his posts.

I also really don't see the ortolan case. I agree with his earlier point about Reckoner's style as town and I don't think he's been lurking a great deal either. His frustration reads as annoyed townie to me.

Vi: because that's exactly what I thought about Reckoner. When I played with town-Reck, he never expressed a desire to give up despite being wagoned to claiming on D1. His 'lynch me' post was a clear departure from that and I immediately thought exactly what ortolan did.

He seemed to be doing a lot of work to discredit any kind of push Ort's way despite earlier in the day saying he hadn't done much. Locke also didn't really comment on much outside of myself or Reck, there really isn't a whole lot of content in posts when you look though them. It's like he posts just enough to get by.

Vote: Locke

flinter

There is little to like about her early play. She defends Reck early on when there is absolutely no reason to defend him. Also getting direct answers to questions from her was like pulling teeth. She makes a some what reasonable case on Kyle in the early stages only to throw it out and jump on Zach when he doesn't agree with her reasoning. It's a pretty weak reason to switch targets like that as I have said repeatedly. Then there is the old flip flop of not finding Zach scummy for his vote hopping and then suddenly it is. She latches on to personal attacks that aren't there, makes false accusations of ad hom and buddies up to Hohum.

All in all I am still finding her extremely scummy.

Jack is a different story and is probably a big reason why I hate replacements. It's a little rocky at the start when he says he doesn't like me and I end up in his townie pile. His explanation around that is believable enough though so I don't think that is much of a point. I don't know how Locke ends up in his townie pile at that point though.

I'm going to

Vote:hohum

though. For the "xReck says 'lynch me', hohum posts but doesn't comment on it, hohum posts a strong accusation of percy including 8 or so links to his past cases, hohum votes xReck for the post which he'd been ignoring and links to another game for support (except in that game BC claimed doc, and asked for replacement because "it's clear I'm not wanted here...good luck town" which is nothing like what xReck did but more like what flinter did (with the replacing) but hohum says his vote is

final

)" chain of events.

This is a strong point in the Hohum case, something I think Hohum still hasn't answered. (I don't agree with Vi's interpretation of events.)

Jack does give Vi some crap for moving her vote to Ort.

And you were lecturing me about my vote being somewhere that wasn't "helpful".

Your vote wasn't on anyone. Mine's on scum. tyvm

-Your vote is doing jack, VI~

You're not

helping

anyone and it's lending no

credence

to your dedication.-

This could be legit frustration, but I think it is worth noting.

Basically the Jack/flinter slot is almost like night and day. I still find flinter really scummy and I'm not sure why I am one of the only ones. Jack's posting is mostly good. The pressure on Vi's Ort vote sticks out though, but after deadline extensions he does vote for Ort himself.

I'd like some reasoning as to why he is voting Hohum and why he voted Jahudo at the start of the day, also his opinions on the Locke player slot as well. I am still leaning scum on this player slot, but not as strong as I was at the start of the day.

Okay, I'm taking a break now to get something to eat. I will probably look at Jahudo and Percy next maybe Vi.

[Sotty7]

Breaking up my point to discredit it there triple D isn't cool. I never said that players ignoring others isn't a scum tell, I said that why is it just for me and not for these other players.

You basically admitted that the point applies to you as much as me, but you know your alignment. So why isn't it possible that it also happened to other "townies"? So far your case consist of something that also applies to you + weird vibes. Surely you have more at this point because this is weak.

I don't remember the history of the Ort lynch the same as you, but I will re-read that part of the game before fighting with you about it. I just remember Vi pushing it and then Ort becoming viable because of a deadline extension.

[Sotty7]

I criticized Vi because at the time it was almost deadline and I felt she was dragging her heels on the hohum lynch which was the only viable good lynch.

Jahudo seemed scummiest to start and could be my main choice, but hohum turning up with just a vote is annoying.

Annoying = Scummy? You think just slapping a vote on him with no questioning actually help matters?

[Sotty7]

Locke replaced out of Open 208 with the same message, for reference.

He also replaced out of mini 934 that I am in with him with the same message. I don't think it means anything.

Amished seems to be stalling with his back and forth with Reck over another game. The sooner he finishes reading and gets his reasoning in the thread for his reads the better.

I would do some more ISOs today but I'm sick and really can't stomach it.

Vote: Amished

Lynch -1

[Sotty7]

Seems I fail at math. Jack, does the correction of lynch-1/lynch-2 affect your read on Jahudo?

Amished, why exactly is Zach not worth it? Is he still one of your top picks?

I'm pretty sure that if I replaced into the Locke Lamora slot (who, by the way, was getting wagonned for

actively working against

the ortolan lynch) as scum that I would attack someone and try to draw the focus away from myself, so Amished's actions are

consistent

with Locke scum. If not for Locke's history, I may be more inclined to think he was misguided town with a pet theory, but I'm not willing to ignore the legitimate reasons for thinking Locke is scum.

Town or scum you would think that anyone being run up at this point would be actively scum hunting when they replace in. This is you reaching to make a null tell mean something.

[Sotty7]

Apart from my Amished vote, I like DDD's case on Sotty the most. She largely ignored ortolan only to jump on late with little reasoning. I don't understand the tone part but otherwise its a good case, so my vote would be there if it wasn't where it is.

You just got done pushing Reck on a double standard where he didn't have much involvement with Ort so why is that telling for me and not for Reck? What about the other players that didn't have much interaction with Ort? Because if you take the tone part out of Triple D's case, that's all that's left. So enlighten me why you would vote me over anyone else who is basically in the same boat as me?

Okay... I see your EBWOP right after this. But still I would like to know what singles me out over the others.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7 - Sotty has been a cipher, wrapped in an enigma, smothered in secret sauce. ...okay, maybe not that much. But I still don't see what she did in L. Lamora first thing, or why she said my "Percy case had bite" (#7) when she spent a paragraph cutting it down. Other random things are like "what is your obsession with DDD's vote" when flinter mentioned it once; how she specifically said she would read hohum+Percy+ortolan twice, nominally mentioned ortolan each time, but focused on Percy. She wins points for continuing to push Jack a little in spite of the wind no longer blowing that way, but I'm still not really convinced. Outside the Locke Lamora vote earlier Today, most of what she's said Today seems like small talk.

Actually flinter mentioned Triple D's vote on at least two separate occasions ignoring the rest of the wagon completely. I found it extremely odd that she would be so focused on one players vote, considering the player wasn't overly active or anything.

My issue with Percy is probably in my head, but my last two games with him I tunneled in hardcore on him and we were both town. So I have issues reading him that I am trying to fix. I had an issue with his Hohum case but he seemed to recognize that he could be tunneling there. I'll be honest in that I haven't given Amished's case on him a solid read yet. My initial gut reaction was that didn't like it, but I need to look back for myself.

Open question. How likely is it that Cobalt was bussed by both scumpartners, given the circumstances? 

I'd say it's possible seeing as he was a deadline lynch and the scum could have been scrambling for default town cred.

But still I would like to know what singles me out over the others.

These two quotes:

Ort seems to just fall into his hohum vote after being goaded into it. He also quickly abandons it. I don't like that that whole exchange.

The way Ort fell into his Hohum vote and then abandoned it is scummy to me.

The first is made after the event happens, and you don't say why you don't like the exchange and you haven't called it scummy yet. The second is after Vi votes ortolan, and without acknowledging that something in the event had changed for you, you call it scummy. No further explanation.

So where did the change of opinion happen?

I must be slow, but I don't see a change of opinion. “I don't like it” and “it's scummy” are the same thing.

Okay, I'm feeling better now so I will be re-reading this game. Number one thing on my list is to look at Amished v Percy.

[Sotty7]

Percy

In Post 108 Percy states that he is willing to vote for either Reck, hohum or Ort. It all feels very much like a step post to move his vote but it doesn't actually happen until a few posts later and after a small wagon builds up on him and then he tacks a vote on Reck after his wagon had evaporated.

I just went to check on that post to find out what happened to the xRx wagon, and it disappeared quite quickly. He has

no votes

on him right now.

Unvote
Vote: xRECKONERx
HoS: flinter

(inb4 Vibaawww)

I like the lynches of both of these players.

He had made an earlier post talking about his dislike for Reck's meta attack on Zach and how quickly he abandoned it, but this all seems like a delayed reaction looking back. Percy, why did you wait so long to move your RVS vote off flinter? What made reck a better lynch than flinter, hohum or Ort at this time?

I have already spoken about how I think he padded his hohum case but I do feel like his push on hohum is mostly genuine. I can't really explain it but it has to do with the tone in his posts. Of course he could be frustrated scum but I think it sits more with frustrated townie.

Isn't on the Ort wagon despite stating a willingness to hammer. I'm of the opinion that scum are more likely to drop hammer here than put it off. Ort was looking like a slam dunk lynch. My only issue was waiting for more input when we had plenty of time to do that all day.

Day two starts like day one with a hohum vote. Defends Jack (disagree), calls Vi town (agree) Has a town read on Jahudo (tentatively agree will be getting to him shortly.)

Percy are you looking at a amished/hohum team?

So I have an issue with the delay of him coming out of RVS and his padding of the hohum case, but I think he has been active and scum hunting outside of hohum as well. I do see some defensiveness in his reactions to Amished and hohum, but I still don't think being defensive is a scum tell.

Amished's Percy case

For Percy: It starts with both his RVS vote and continues with his first questioning post. These both look contrived. The RVS vote just doesn't read right. There's not really a way to make the statement an exclamatory one, and it just seems like he's trying to overexaggerate to help give a reason to his vote by making it look scummy. For the questioning post, if that's not the fluffiest question I've ever seen I'll eat my pitchfork. There was absolutely no "lashing out" by anybody *but* xRx; so the question is absolutely pointless for being the 34th one in the game (18th that wasn't confirmations/rules). It's busy work that couldn't even help Percy help to determine how hohum felt about anything.

Both of these points are epic reaching. The RVS vote was clearly a jibe about a past game, I figure that out without knowing the game in question. Also Percy clearly used hohum's own words RE: Lashing out.

kyle lied/forgot about not playing with xRx as scum. Doubly so. However, kyle is clearly a player who lurks, says stupid things and has to be replaced in many games, as both town and scum.

This is only odd because Percy basically gives kyle a free pass based solely on meta, but doesn't give a shit about the meta of hohum (lazy, overall) and xRx (erratic). Inconsistent stances on players for the same reason = scumz Oh, and guess who replaced kyle. Yep, that's right, it's Jahudo who voted for me after calling out Percy

This is a good point. The meta thing is a double standard.

So Amished, your case has a lot of semantics with the one point I would say is good, (meta) it's not something that has me leaping with excitement and wanting to jump on with you. And it certainly isn't enough to get me to over look all the defending of scum Locke did.

I honestly have no idea why Sotty is voting for me in the first place. It was from before I replaced in so it was against Locke; but nothing really jumped out as a solid reason from her.

Here are my reasons for voting you. Yes it is based pretty much of what Locke did, but I am not giving you a free pass just because he replaced out. I am not impressed by your Percy case and so I see no real reason to believe that I am wrong about your slot being scum.

I'd like to what is it don't you like about the hohum wagon exactly?
Do you find defensiveness a scum tell?
Why are you calling “chainsaw defense” before we even see a flip of either Percy or Jahudo?

Working on Jahudo ISO now.

[Sotty7]

I must be slow, but I don't see a change of opinion. “I don't like it” and “it's scummy” are the same thing.

Who knows what "I don't like it" means? Its not quantified in a way that separates the exchange from bad town behavior and scummy behavior. When you think its scummy, you vote or say its scummy. When you say its counter-productive, and maybe town-on-town attack, you could say you don't like it. You could also mean scummy, but who knows? Its convenient that no one knows but you until orts is ready for a lynch.

This is epic reaching. What else could “I don't like it” possibly mean?

Amished, when you put it like that (post 717) I can understand the hypocrisy side of your Percy case. after I made my post yesterday we had a family emergency so I am behind on my Jahudo stuff, I'm working on it. Did you switch from Percy to Jahudo because of the lack of traction?

Replacing into the game on D2 and feeling the need to call someone's RVS vote contrived is bizarre. I find it difficult to credit that to a genuine thought process.

This is my thought too. The RVS vote and Percy's first questioning post are easily the weakest parts of that case.

I don't buy Percy's theory of Zach/Jack/Ort. Mainly because Zach had plenty of time and opportunity to unvote the flinter slot during day one and never did. He was an early vote on that slot and I don't see scumZach in that hypo team, willing to buss so hard and early like that. Seems extremely counter-productive.

[Sotty7]

Kyle

Kyle's vote on flinter was poor. She made a case on him which he called weak but he didn't vote right away. It was almost as if he wanted to test the water to see if others would agree before slapping a vote down. That's not a townie thought process.

Alright, I looked at it again, and Flinter's reasoning on me is enough for me to

vote: Flinter

Your reasoning is because of the fact that I usually just follow the town, and never do anything that stands out, and because I'm standing out more this game, I'm scum. That is honestly terrible reasoning, and makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean, if it was so bad why the delay in the vote. I asked him about this at the time but he replaced out instead.

Jahudo

His first suspect post upon entering the game is pretty good. He brings up some points against flinter I hadn't thought of at the time (the inconsistent “changing the playstyle” with her and Kyle)

Most of his posts after this are him laying out his suspects and what have you, the logic is there. I don't see anything strikingly scummy from him. But it does take him several posts before throwing a vote out. I'm not sure why he waits, the vote goes on Jack who was listed as his top suspect in the post I mentioned up there. The delay reminds me of Kyle and his flinter vote.

Then we have a little back and forth with Vi talking about hohum and his “locked on” vote. Jahudo goes as far as to say this;

I'll still look at ortolan seriously, but Vi is bumping up my suspect list quick. 1. Jack 2. Locke 3. Vi and DDD is not a suspect anymore.

There is then four post were Jahudo and Vi exchange points after which we get this:

Huzzah! Though after looking at Vi's case on ortolan... I kinda like it.

---===Snip==---

1. Jack 2. ortolan 3. Locke 4. Vi (everybody else looks town to me right now)

There seems to be a little disconnect here that I still don't like. I did question Jahudo about it, asking if he thought Vi/Ort scum team. He said no, so he was looking at an either or situation I would assume. But I would have thought if a player you found scummy made a case you liked against another player you would be questioning your initial read.

Day two and his pressure on ekiM isn't a bad thing, I just don't agree. I thought his Amished vote was badly timed and putting him at lynch-1 but I couldn't count and it was only lynch -2. It does feel like he wanted Amished to really feel the pressure (I can see scum or town wanting this) because Amished was posting without having finished the game at this point and others had complained.

Now based on my scumlist yesterday, Jack looks town and orto's lynched scum. Locke is my top suspect by default and by connections, hence my L-2 vote.

So why didn't you vote him right away? You have also switched to your vote Rec near deadline, do you believe him to be scummier than Amished?

I feel like I have been giving Jahudo the benefit of the doubt too much, his posts have the townie feel in my head. But some of his actions don't really mesh all that well and I don't like how he delays his votes. It's pretty scummy to me that both him and Kyle did that.

= = = = = =

-Right now I have town reads on Zach, ekiM and Vi.
-I still really want to lynch one of Amished/JAck
-I would rather lynch Jahudo over Percy
-I would be willing to settle for a Hohum lynch seeing as he posted just enough to avoid being replaced.
-I am undecided on Triple D and Rec. But I think there are better lynches than these two today

[Sotty7]

Is the delay scummy? Why?

I stated why I find delays like this scummy. It was like both Kyle and Jahudo were waiting for the town to give them the green light. They didn't throw their vote out until they felt it would be received well.

What is wrong with thinking "X might have a point on Y, but I still suspect X somewhat"?

It coveys to me static reads. If someone you are suspicious of makes a good case on another scummy player wouldn't that effect your read? You could claim bussing of course, but Jahudo said that he didn't think bussing was a probability in with Ort/Vi. Basically it doesn't feel natural for their not to be some change there. He was quick to downgrade Triple D earlier, so I know it's not a play style thing with him

Is any of this scummy?

No.

So this new stuff does wipe away the reasons I found hohum town.

How timely.

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

I'd settle for a hohum lynch if that was all that was around. I find Jahudo scummier than hohum so that's where my vote is going.

[Sotty7]

I'm not willing to give hohum a pass today. Yeah he hammered Jahudo but it was either that or go down himself. He wasn't voting day one come lynch and Percy's death makes me wonder if he was on the right track.

Reck does look bad in light of Jack's 835 but I'm in the same mind as Triple D. I don't want to be lynching someone who was on back to back scum lynches in the first two days. I just don't see why scum would bus like that. It makes no sense.

Vi is in my town column mostly for her day one play and the shear amount of hostility between Ort and her. In that light don't find her pushing Hohum over Jahudo yesterday scummy. Considering that hohum is starting to creep up in my list today.

Looking at straight at the lynching wagons I was surprised to see that ekiM wasn't on either scum lynch. He was pushing pretty hard against a Jahudo lynch towards the end of yesterday. He also paid a lot of lip service to the Ort/Colbat wagon on day one but never voted. Choosing instead to push a Hohum lynch. I really want to hear from him and where he stands today. He is no longer in my town reads.

Amished... Yeah he voted Jahudo but I am still feeling scum from Locke's whole reaction to the Ort wagon on day one. But would scum really bus in that situation? I'm torn.

I'm starting to think I was wrong about Jack. Triple D is probably town, same with Zach.

Vote: eikM

[Sotty7]

When exactly did Vi lie about any post restriction?

And when I say I'm not giving you a pass I mean just that. Some people want to think you hammering yesterday gives you towncred. I don't think it does considering the circumstances.

[Sotty7]

But there are plenty of posts were Vi isn't using any kind of "scoop" type deal. What about those?

[Sotty7]

You hammered Jahudo simply to save yourself, that isn't compelling to me. You also hammered ekiM as quick as you could, why exactly? Yeah we hit two scum back to back, but rushing the day helps no one but scum in that situation.

Hohum is my number one pick for the last scum, with Amished at second. His whole "why is there still hate on me?" after voting Jahudo rubs me the wrong way. I'm not interested in lynching anyone else today.

[Sotty7]

I had a feeling that was you. Why did you claim? I doubt you would have been lynched today despite hohum's desire.

PREVIEW EDIT: Why did Zach's claim make you self vote hohum? That doesn't make any sense.

[Sotty7]

Also, I like how xRx is deciding not to vote for hohum (for my alleged slip or what the fuck ever you want to take my comment out of context as) but isn't voting for me because of the slip and how sure he is about it.

Vote: xRECKONERx

Out of context? You said you thought hohum would flip town, why would you hammer if that was true. Why not push someone else?

I'm so right, I can feel it. I gave you {xRx} an easy out to follow me before, and you did it.

Zach, remind you of yourself when I caught your scumbuddy raven in that newbie game at all?

Now you want us to believe this was a

plan

of yours? I thought Reck took you out of context?

Triple D, are you saying Amished town because of wagon placement?

[Sotty7]

Triple D, are you saying Amished town because of wagon placement?

What you can't just trust me? Third on the Jahudo wagon certainly helps his cause. I think the bigger thing is that very early on day two Jahudo jumped on his wagon early. I just don't see scum's first instinct being to bus their other partner after bussing their first partner on day one. A cross bus in that position would just be ridiculous.

Never trust a man that says trust me.

But... I guess you have a point with the cross bus. Jahudo jumped on Amished at a critical point in day two in what felt like an action out of nowhere at the time. Cross bussing does sound a bit far fetched, but I'm not willing to rule it completely out. You touch on it, the night was short scum were very likely failing around. I'm just having a hard time letting go of all the Locke/Ort stuff from day one. I really wish Locke was still with us, because it is easy for Amished to dismiss all that now.

Reck, are you voting for Triple D because of his attack on you?

hohum, why doesn't the lack of a counter claim clear Zach in your eyes? Everyone has checked in and a 10min night after a scum lynch doesn't feel like a scum power use. Also are you going to scum hunt or are you just leaving your vote on yourself all day?

[Sotty7]

Vote: hohum

Part process of elimination and part not liking hohum's placement on the wagons. Not voting day one, hammering out of self preservation day two, now he is voting himself for no real reason. It feels like a bluff.

My gut says we lynch hohum we won't need to worry about Amished and that player slot's motivations because it will be game over.

[Sotty7]

Also are you going to scum hunt or are you just leaving your vote on yourself all day?

I'm doing what I can to insert myself back into the discussion. I've at least voted someone today, you only just now voted. Are you going to scum hunt today or are you going to go for low hanging fruit?

I happen to think you are scum, so yes. But keeping your vote on yourself isn't helpful if you truly are town.

Yay, "terrible play" as an excuse for my lynch! After not seeing anything scummy pop out on a quick reread (read Vi's previous posts) and basically agreeing with both DDD and I about hohum (should get lynched one way or another but won't right now?); but still wanting me lynched essentially because of me stating that hohum should be lynched at the time.

Looks like desperate scum to me.

Funny. Because when I saw your vote for Vi, that's exactly what I thought about you.

I've read back a little bit in the topic and I've noticed a vi pattern. Every time someone goes after Vi we get a robotic "you're a BAD townie" and get swatted on the nose with a newspaper ever failing to address the root cause of the complaint. This has been ongoing since Day 1.

So I take it you have no reaction to Amished's sudden hostile reaction to Vi's vote by slapping one right back on her?

As I type this up, Vi's two most recent posts come up leaving me pretty stumped. I take it you ISO'ed Amished in 1037 and then went back to read parts of the game in context in 1044? The quick flip leaves a sour taste in my mouth, as if you wanted to get away from Amished not fully convinced of the case you built. Are you dropping Amished completely now?

[Sotty7]

I think Triple D is likely town, same with Vi.

Triple D busing both of his buddies early back to back isn't very believable to me. Vi v Ort just doesn't look like scum v scum. She wasn't on the Jahudo lynch but

was

pushing hohum, the person I believe to be our final scum. Her flipping her vote quickly like she just did is what townVi does, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I'm not interested in lynching either of them today. I think the scum are going to be found in Hohum/Amished.

[Sotty7]

It should be.

I'm here, didn't have any time to check the walls yesterday so I'm gonna be doing that now. My gut feeling is that is is Amished but I am not going to be quick to place my vote today.

Anyway bbl.

[Sotty7]

I'm very evidently town.

This needs elaboration.

I find myself agreeing with Vi in regards to Amished. The instance that he is town is not enough for me at all. Ever since he was on Jahudo's lynch he has been acting like that should auto clear him and that he doesn't need to really try.

As for massclaim, I would have thought that any power role with helpful info would have come out with it already so we could process everything. Why do you need an MC to form an opinion Triple D?

[Sotty7]

Sotty: Who do you think has the most to gain from the NK's?

Looking at it simply and with the players left alive, the Percy kill points to Reck. Percy kept going back and forth on his suspicions of Reck if I remember right. However at the time, I remember thinking the Percy kill pointed more towards hohum though, who we now know is town. So on the face of things it looks more like a set up kill to me.

Jack was pushing hard on Reck during day three and we can agree that he would have probably pushed for Reck on day four as well if he was alive. So I would say that is obvious, a Jack kill benefits Reck.

Zach was all about Triple D towards the end. He had a town read on Vi and myself and seemed to be developing one on you Amished. Triple D had the most to gain out of a Zach death followed by Reck. But with his claimed power, the scum might have not wanted the wildcard of him around. So that's not as strong.

What's your opinion of the night kills Amished? I find a lot of it can be WIFOM'ed but these are my opinions without getting too drunk on the wine.

After reading your post 1101 if seems like you have much more of a case on Reck than Vi. In fact in reading it I can see were you are coming from now. Why exactly did Vi jump over Reck for you? I still don't see why Vi's attack on you over what Reck did would be scummy enough for you to switch your votes. Considering that there is more than likely only one scum left and so she can't be defending a buddy. It seemed like such a kneejerk reaction to her vote on you at the time and now you have taken the time to explain your thought process with your Reck interaction I think the vote hop looks even worse.

[Sotty7]

Amished if you believe Reck more likely to be scum now why haven't you switched your vote? ViFEAR?

Sotty, who is your second pick for scum?

Reck. We'll see how MC effects that.

Townie here as well. Amished, you're up

[Sotty7]

So Sotty. Do you believe Amished's claim? Do you believe the game is "wrapped up"?

I think PGO is a good claim for the final scum because it explains why he would make lylo with little question. In the same breath why not just claim townie, so I'm spilt. I don't think the game is wrapped up because if he is telling the truth the scum won't go near him. So unless I am missing something, it really doesn't do too much.

Why should I not believe you're playing from the sidelines again?

Because I'm not. I was all gun ho for the ekiM case I made a little while back without realizing that it would lead to such an epic quick lynch. I have slowed my play down a little since then but I have been anything but on the sidelines.

Can you provide a game or two where you

haven't

hard-bussed your partners?

A part from the Tubby game I haven't been scum much lately. (This is were I regret not having a wiki and start digging though my role pms) Here are my latest scum games, some of them go back a little way.

Mini 905 is a game were I am scum with Thesp and a new player at the time, pman. This does contain some busing, I start pushing him early on Day 1 as a little rough form of coaching. All in all pman survives until day three were he is lynched mostly because of the SK lynch the day before. I bussed him in this game, but not Thesp.

I replaced into semioldguys game open 175 and didn't bus my partners at all. I was lynched on an assumed cop guilty in the end. Amished is also in this game

Another game I replaced into Newbie 854 I do give my partner a little bit of a hard time but I didn't vote for her once, although we were in a cop/cop claim death battle and I can't honestly say I wouldn't have eventually, but as you see I try and prolong her life.

I won't bother listing ViPod since A) you know about that and B) If I bussed VP there I would die, so it doesn't even count.

Porken's WWF mafia has myself and Lock on the same team. There were two scum teams with two people each so you could argue that bussing wasn't the thing to do. But if you are accusing me of super busing Ort and Jahudo then I wold say this counts.

Newbie 802 I played from the start and scored a flawless scum victory with my newbie buddy. I pressure him a little from time to time but no busing.

Zach's game should go in here somewhere to, but I either skipped over the PM in my box or deleted it. As you know in that game I bussed the crap out of Haylen my buddy. Part of it was annoyance with her/play style and I was getting sick of it and part of it of it was because she also happened to be uber scummy. You have first hand experience with this seeing as you were my other buddy. I don't think I pushed you much if at all.

I could probably dig up some links from the other place I used to play mafia, but I think these should be enough.

As far as lynching you today, if we aren't touching Amished then I would much rather lynch Reck. The rest of your plan sounds good. I'm going to try and do a re-read and see if that changes anything for me.

[Sotty7]

Crap, I was hoping to be dead so I wouldn't have to be the one to make the choice. Gut still screams Amished but I do see the potential for Triple D to be a Serial Killer who did actually kill Percy. So yeah, back to square one and looking over everything again.

[Sotty7]

I'm not having a very good day at all, but thankfully Amished has outed himself as the last scum with his vote and Triple D's last post. So at least that is clear.

Vote: Amished

When I spoke about the SK l was obviously talking about a 2/1/9 set up. There would only be one kill because the scum team was already dead and in the ground. I don't see how all this talk of power roles helps anything here unless you are claiming you knew along that certain people were PRs subconsciously? The only power role I had any clue about was Zach and that was only after he made it clear by correcting you the day before about the goings on about the nights.

Your reasoning for voting me is flawed and makes little sense. You seem to be heavily relying on the fact that Triple D has been calling you town for most of the game.

[Sotty7]

I have been pushing the Amished/Locke spot all game. Ever since I aired my dislike over Locke's early push on Zach he lurked and contributed little to the game. What he did add was a constant defense of Ort and what I viewed as opportunistic wagon jumps. Here is the case I outlined at the time. It all still applies

Then we have Amished who starts the game off with fluff posting in a back and forth with Reck. Once he is fully caught up his top suspects are Zach and Percy. Zach gets dropped really quickly and he zeros on Percy. At the time I didn't like Amished's case on Percy it was pretty much semantics. I believe that now with how hard he was pushing Percy compared with how little the town was receptive to it was the real reason Percy died that night. Not because Triple D was targeted, but we won't know for sure until the game is over.

Jahudo becomes viable to Amished right after he jumps on Amished's wagon. At the time, momentum had swung towards Amished and I mistakenly thought that Jahudo's vote was lynch -1. Looking back the vote was strange and seemingly out of nowhere. But it suddenly made Jahudo scummy enough for Amished. It opened up Amished to actually busing despite already having lost one of their partners in the lynch before.

When Amished votes for Jahudo the vote count looks like this:

Votecount 2-7

:

Amished ~ L-2 (ekiM, Sotty7, Zachrulez, Jahudo)

Percy ~ L-3 (hohum, Amished, xRECKONERx)
hohum ~ L-4 (Vi, Percy)
Jahudo ~ L-4 (Jack, Debonair Danny DiPietro)

Not Voting:

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch. Deadline is April 17 at roughly 12 p.m. (GMT-4).

The Percy wagon is going nowhere and Amished has already classed the hohum wagon was opportunistic. So when all is said and done, the only place he can move his vote is on Jahodo. He has been getting heat since he replaced in from people like me surrounding Locke's defense of Ort and so his only recourse was to vote Jahudo and hope to get the crazy towncred if it makes it to lynch. So close to the deadline he couldn't start a new wagon, he couldn't vote for himself and sticking on the dead wagon of Percy while not actively succeeding in convincing people to swing that way was starting to stink. So instead, he took a gamble.

Skimmed up, glad that Jah is scum; bewildered that Percy is town. Not sure why there's still some hate towards me but whatever.

This is something that really gets my gut. Like the bus of Jahudo is just supposed to clear all bad thoughts about him? It just feels like this is one of the most honest posts in the game. He was expecting to be put in everyone's town pile after that lynch and was annoyed that his gamble wasn't giving him the pay off he wanted.

Then we have rolefishing around the short night. A vote on ekiM for not looking “protown”, threatens to hammer reck despite thinking he is town. A few posts later reck is scum because of a slip, which actually does make sense. However he abandons this super quick for Vi. It's like he just scrambling for any lynch that isn't him. Seeing what sticks.

So basically, the cross busing/vote for Jahudo is the only really townie thing Amished has done, but if you look closer at the situation it's not as clear cut as it looks.

However, both of my votes for the scum were at pivotal moments in their wagons. If I was buddies with Ort and Jahudo then I had two clear opportunities to put pressure elsewhere and save them.

---

Vote Count 1-20

:

Jack ~ L-3 (Zachrulez, Sotty7, Cobalt, Locke Lamora)

Cobalt ~ L-3 (Vi, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Jack, Jahudo)
hohum ~ L-5 (Percy, ekiM)
Debonair Danny DiPietro ~ L-6 (xRECKONERx)

Not Voting: hohum

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch. Deadline is April 3 at roughly 3 p.m. (GMT -4).

I unvoted Jack and put Cobalt at lynch-2 breaking the tie between the two. I could have easily left my vote on Jack. His wagon was still viable at the time.

---

Votecount 2-11

:

hohum ~ L-1 (Vi, ekiM, Percy, Jahudo, Zachrulez)

Jahudo ~ L-2 (Jack, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Amished, xRECKONERx)
Percy ~ L-5 (hohum)
Amished ~ L-5 (Sotty7)

Not Voting:

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch. Deadline is April 17 at roughly 12 p.m. (GMT-4).

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

I'd settle for a hohum lynch if that was all that was around. I find Jahudo scummier than hohum so that's where my vote is going.

If I was scum there is no reason for me not to hammer hohum at this point. It would be a suicidal move on my part, but not only that I had said that I was willing to lynch hohum several times that day. As scum I could have hammered the townie and then returned to Jahudo the next day easily.

It's really as basic as that. Amished/Locke defended Ort on day one and then only voted Jahudo after getting heat about that and realizing that there was no other real lynch he could chase. His slot needed the towncred and desperately. On the other hand I was a swing vote that turned the two lynches towards the scum, something I could have navigated around if I was scum with them.

Okay this turned out longer than I thought, but if you have any questions Triple D then ask. Otherwise I am just going to hope you pick right.

[Sotty7]

I can't express how happy I am this game is over.

I don't think I have ever been so stressed playing mafia before. Literally from the off I was feeling the pressure, Reck had me nailed in the very opening and I thought that if he just focused in his attention on me a little more he would have been able to crack me. As the Ort/Cobalt lynch became unavoidable and I was upset because I had barely mentioned or done anything with that player slot. I knew I had to bus and make it look good, but I did wait as long as I could before I let it get to that, I

really

wanted to lynch Jack.

I can't speak for Jahudo, but Zach ending night right away made me crazy. I needed that night to stop and take a breath really bad. I was feeling the heat and yet suddenly it was right back into the fire. I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't bus Jahudo no matter what happened... I guess I like to lie to myself as well in these games.

As awesome as I want you all to think I am, the truth is that the epic Jahudo bus was a pretty big mistake on my part, a complete accident. At the time I thought the two people not voting were myself and Jah, but it was actually me and hohum. So when Jah quoted part of my post and basically said "lets see who sotty finds more scummy out of me and hohum *wink, wink nudge nudge* I thought I could vote Jah and then watch him vote hohum. By the time I figured it out it was too late, I couldn't unvote Jah without outing both him and myself. His lynch was really, really painful to watch. I wanted to hide in my QT forever after it. I'm glad I pulled this one out, I was really worried over having Jah hate me forever after that (That and getting lynched the next day and looking like a grade A idiot.)

After that I spent a lot of time freaking out in my QT and trying to look as town as possible in the thread. The game just felt so long and that I would never see the end. I had convinced myself that Triple D was a SK after I tried to kill him and it not working. I basically just started to kill people that I knew I wouldn't be able to lynch. Apart from my attempt on Triple D on night two, that was simply because he thought I was scum

After this game I am never playing on MS with Zach again. Ever. I'm pretty sure his presence increased my stress levels 100% I got no real break from the game in my mind.

I'm also never going to bus my partner again... Honestly.

All the players in the game were really good and were more than capable of bringing my poor little world down at any moment. To have made it all the way to lylo and actually win, I'm feel pretty proud about it all honestly. I almost lost my mind completely once I saw VP put the game in night again after lynching Amished. Just ask Zach, I kept saying over and over "why is it night again dude? Why?" Needless to say, he got a little sick of it.

Thanks to VP for modding and putting up with insanity in the QT. Also thanks for the scummy nom, guess I should be retiring now eh? Also thanks to everyone and their kind words. I had fun in this game, but it's going to take me a little time to recover I think.

[Sotty7]

I took a leap of faith that because I could block and kill that there wouldn't be a tracker in the game. As for watcher or cop both were very possible, but I hoped that A) I was townie enough from the bus that I wouldn't get an early cop investigation and could spend the time looking for possible cops. And B) that I killed players that were some what unlikely to be watched. Expect for maybe Zach.

Basically it was a big time risk that really put me to the fire so to speak. It's not an experience I will be looking to repeat any time soon that's for sure.