Mini 929: Whedonesque Mafia (Game Over)

[esuriospiritus]

Woop woop, two blatant BSG fans in this game.

I'm, like, ridiculously tired, so I'm going to

Vote: bv310

for having a boring alphanumeric name and check in later.

[esuriospiritus]

Vaya opened with 2 words, then only posted when someone called her out for lurking. I believe this warrants frustration, if, admittedly, not suspicion.

This is harsh wording, if not an attempted misrep. Only 8 hours passed between Vaya's first post and her second post, which hardly constitutes as lurking even in a "short" deadline game (and is far better than the amount of time passed between my first and second posts. <_<; )

I find it confusing that Jeromus would word Vaya's actions to make them seem worse than they are, then defend her actions as frustrating but not suspicious. Maybe I'm trying too hard to find something good and get us further out of the RVS, but I also find his use of the word "admittedly" to be odd. I personally take the usage of such phrases as "admittedly" and "to be honest" as a subconscious tack-on that means, "I don't want to admit this, but I will anyway because I get something out of putting it out there, such as appearing slightly more pro-town or avoiding taking a stance". If you're admitting or being honest about this one thing, what are you omitting?

In other words, I consider it a slight scum-tell, though it's the misrep that bothers me more.

unvote; vote: jeromus

...better than random. Let's see where this goes.

[esuriospiritus]

Did I mention "slight"?

What do you think of the rest of my post? Do you think Jeromus' wording was subtle misrep, or "just a way of talking"?

[esuriospiritus]

Hmm. Well, I'd like to see what more experienced mafia players have to say on the matter, but I still think it wise to be wary of such words. (Hey, alliteration! )

I am going to work now for a bit. Nobody call me out for lurking, please.

[esuriospiritus]

No Jeromus reply? Sigh.

in fact

seen him do that in a previous game.

Acknowledged. Do you have a link handy?

I've played in games on another site (bunch of idiots obsessed with fast games) in which deadlines were 48 hours.

Gamefaqs, by any chance? They all have no lives there, so 48 hours is plenty for them. <_<

@Fate; Seven -- any reason you don't have a vote down on anyone?

[esuriospiritus]

Oops, was going by mod's votecount and missed your vote. My bad. No need to be snarky about it, though. :/

[esuriospiritus]

unvote: jeromus

I read his games in iso. He does indeed seem to have an affinity for exaggeration and hyperbole. I still think his wording was too harsh, but I can let it slide now that I have a better idea of how he words things.

You seem to have strawmanned together a very weak case on jeromus.

No duh on the "weak case" thing, though I disagree with throwing around the term "straw manning" so easily. It has a connotation of malignant intent.

Obviously anything this early is going to be weak, though, and I acknowledge that in my voting post. I'd rather have a vote on someone for a reason than be voting someone randomly, no matter how far I have to reach to justify that reason.

I do, however, refuse to keep a vote when I can no longer justify that reason, such as is the case now.

@Fate: You say you disagree with most (if not all) of the bandwagons that have happened thus far. Out of the people on the bandwagons you disagree with, who do you think is most likely to be scum? What wagon do you think is most likely to be solely town-motivated?

@Vaya: Out of everyone who has voted you, who do you think is the scummiest, and why?

@Seven: There's always something you can find to ask someone questions about, especially after the first couple of pages. Watching people play without yourself placing a vote or asking questions can be considered active lurking. Our game days are short, so waiting until two days have passed before jumping in is far from pro-town. Even if it is your playstyle to sit back and absorb everything for a while, you can't afford to do that in this game and we can't afford to let someone who intends to off the hook.

vote: Seven

[esuriospiritus]

Care to elaborate?

[esuriospiritus]

Why would I do that? Regardless of alignment, it is not in

anyone's

best interests, town or scum, to build cases toward lynching themselves. o_O

[esuriospiritus]

Tell me why your Seven vote is any better than your Jeromus vote, and I'll consider it.

Are you always this belligerent and unhelpful in your games? And anyway, I asked you first!

You also completely failed to acknowledge the second part of my questioning directed toward you in 97. I would appreciate it if you would rectify this ASAP.

What wagon do you think is most likely to be solely town-motivated?

Care to elaborate?

Here are the questions for reference. No excuses, now, my curt and entirely uncordial friend!

Reasoning for a vote is good, reaching for a reason is not.

I agree, generally speaking, but when we are only just barely out of the RVS I think it is a superior way to get reads on people (as opposed to voting randomly). Obviously once real progress on reads starts being made (say, midway to late through day 1 and beyond), reaching for a reason to vote someone shouldn't be necessary. Unless you're scum.

[esuriospiritus]

Good to hear that I can still logick when operating on severe sleep deprivation. Wheeeeeee!



...Don't mind me, I'm loopy. Goodnight. x_x;

[esuriospiritus]

ES is still a better wagon, everyone.

Wow! Thanks to your fabulous scumhunting and social skills, I have been convinced of my own obvious scumminess!

unvote; vote: esuriospiritus

unvote; vote: Fate

Y'know, Seven's right. Asking me to build a case on myself for him

is

scummy as hell.

@Farside: Seven's posts seemed to indicate he intended to actively lurk. My problem with Jeromus was largely resolved when I read his other games. Thus, I moved to the best lead I had at the time. Seven's issues in my mind have also been resolved by him actually posting something substantial (112).

[esuriospiritus]

Yea that vote doesn't seem very OMGUS at all does it?

Hey, it's not OMGUS if they really

do

suck. I can always unvote when and if he starts sucking less at communicating his reasoning.

bbl.

[esuriospiritus]

Yea that vote doesn't seem very OMGUS at all does it?

Hey, it's not OMGUS if they really

do

suck. I can always unvote when and if he starts sucking less at communicating his reasoning.

bbl.

[esuriospiritus]

Yea that vote doesn't seem very OMGUS at all does it?

Hey, it's not OMGUS if they really

do

suck. I can always unvote when and if he starts sucking less at communicating his reasoning.

bbl.

[esuriospiritus]

OMG INTERNET FAIL

[esuriospiritus]

But your vote against yourself was a bit over the top, if you didn't agree with his vote and call for votes against you that is one thing, you could have voted him only and then told him you wanted him to post a real case against you.

Instead you vote yourself for no reason other then to be smart about it and then vote Fate based on something Seven said.

"over the top" is my middle name.

@Fate: Since when is defending someone scummy? Were you not defending Seven, Vaya, and Pwnman in 93? If any of them happen to defend you at any point, does that mean I get to call it scummy regardless of how good the reasons for those defenses may be? Let's say I decide to misrepresent you, and pwnman calls me out on it. Even though defending against a misrep is completely justified, OMG YOU GUYS ARE SCUMMY NOW FOR DEFENDING EACH OTHER according to your logic. Do you see the flaw in this now?

Again, why?

If he thinks I'm scummy, he should build his own case on me instead of trying to get me to build it for him. Also, that he would resist giving any reasoning whatsoever for his vote so long makes me suspicious that maybe he didn't initially

have

any reasoning and just wanted an excuse to not answer my questions and thus take too many stances.

[esuriospiritus]

Notice I did not call any of the aforementioned players town, so, no, it was not a defense.

herp derp.

But I never called Vaya town, I merely said she had been misrepped. So by your own logic...

They came to each other's defense.

Do I really need to spell it out?

...your entire reason for voting me is null, as

by your own logic

, I'm not actually defending Vaya and any defending is only one way. It seems to me that, given your own reasoning, you should be voting Vaya, not me.

So have either of us actually defended anyone, or not? Make up your mind.

[esuriospiritus]

EBWOP: He. Vaya = he.

Damn males with female avatars.

shakefist.jpg

[esuriospiritus]

A better way of saying the overused term "straw man", basically. Saying someone did or said something they didn't do or say, twisting their words, etc.

[esuriospiritus]

Where's the rest of this case you supposedly have on me, then?

[esuriospiritus]

Enlighten us, oh wise unconventional thinker.

[esuriospiritus]

...what? o_O You never adequately explained why any of my actions have been scummy in the first place, you just spewed some bullshit about defending people and hinted that you had not yet revealed your full case on me.

And by 'unconventional', I was referring to that box you were insinuating you were outside the bounds of. I'm pretty sure the box is called Logic.

[esuriospiritus]

You vote Jeromus. You the unvote him, agreeing your reasoning was weak, and say "I meta'd him and I'll believe that is his style."

Then you vote Seven:"I don't agree with his style." Seven then explains his style, but you do not meta him. Then You switch from your BW vote on Seven to me "I agree with Seven, asking me to make a case on myself is scummy", the one you were previously voting suggested.

Iam then asks you why what I said was scummy, and you provide an unsatisfactory answer that would require me to be a complete idiot.

There, rhyme and reason. I'm exhausted now. Now it is your turn.

I have no qualms with your representation of my vote/unvote on Jeromus; it is pretty much accurate. You misunderstand or deliberately misrepresent my vote on Seven, though. I did not vote him because it was his style; I don't really care if sitting back and doing nothing is his style or not. It doesn't make it any more pro-town if he does it all the time. However, it is still early in the game and since he made a reply that was more engaging and thus satisfactory to me, I was willing to unvote him. If he decides to slink into the shadows and not scumhunt, I can always vote him again later, just as I would anyone who was not contributing if I didn't already have my vote somewhere better.

Your post where you asked me to make a case on myself seemed wrong to me, but I confess that it wasn't until Seven echoed my feelings on that post and its scumminess that I felt confident enough about my own reaction to it to vote based on that reaction. I apologize for not making that clear up front. Numerous other people have also echoed that sentiment since, so I feel further justified in my reaction to it, and really, it's not my fault that the first of many to agree that your action was scummy happened to be the person I had just unvoted. I could have waited and said I agreed with Azh, or whatever.

How exactly am I being "inconsistent"? Mind that frequently changing votes =! inconsistency in scumhunting, especially on day one when there are no flips to help provide a starting point in that scumhunting endeavor.

Why is it scummy?

...I can see

no possible

town motivation for asking someone to build a case on themselves. It just doesn't compute for a townie to ask that whatsoever. Therefore it follows in my mind that that action must be scum or neutral motivated.

You seem to insinuate that you do

not

find asking someone why they're scummy to be a scummy action. Why not? Do you think Fate is town, or are you just trying to play devil's advocate?

I'll have to get to the rest of this later. Going to work now. :/

[esuriospiritus]

I don't have time to really read or respond to much of anything right now, but this did catch my eye in my brief glance-over:

It is called: reaction fishing.

Y'know, this is such an overused excuse for scum to backtrack. Seriously, I've seen scum say the words 'reaction fishing' in regard to a scummy post of theirs so many times I'd probably put a vote down on you just for that if I wasn't voting you already.

Expect something in like 18 hours or so. Sleep, then right back to work again. Retail is such

joy.

[esuriospiritus]

Oh, and also @Farside:

imo, following is more of an inexperience tell than a scum tell, if we're talking about the person doing the following (only briefly skimmed anything past a couple posts into page 7 so far, not gonna check context yet). But hey, you've been playing mafia longer than I have, even counting my experience elsewhere. /shrug

Okay, now I

really

have to get to bed. Sorry guys. :/

[esuriospiritus]

I feel the need to address this first:

Not even reading the game is poor town play. Iam pointed out clear as day why he didn't think it was a scummy action, and pointed out exactly where the pro-town motivation lies.

Hey, you're actually right about something! I am terribly busy Fri-Sun generally speaking, and skipped over Iam's response due to having more to read than I had time for. Iam quoted Seven just above his rant on how asking someone to build a case on themselves could be town, and so I assumed it was directed to him and skipped it until I had more time to actually read in full, which I haven't had till just now. So yeah, my bad.

So on that subject since I think it's the first post I never read in full anyway...

I see where Iam is coming from now, but I really don't feel like that is what was going on with Fate. Note that I initiated conversation with Fate (page 4), by asking him to explain his position more. He responded by voting me, the person who asked him to elaborate. I asked him again to elaborate, (top of page 5) and he responded by refusing to answer my question again and instead asking it back to me. Starbuck asked how he was being belligerent and unhelpful; this is how. All I wanted was for him to answer a few simple questions that would give me more insight into his outlook on things, and I feel all he has done is resist and antagonize me for it.

Note that it is five pages after our back-and-forth began, and he still has blatantly failed to answer most if not all questions I have thrown at him in an attempt to make him take stances or form opinions other than "esurio is scummy lol".

Scum aren't going to jump out and reveal themselves by doing something as obviously stupid as saying "I have a case on you" when they actually don't.

I believe scum would have something to gain by attempting to create a diversion like that, though, if someone is asking to form opinions when they'd rather leave themselves open to go any direction the bandwagon goes. Sooner or later every player, town or scum, cracks or makes a mistake if you put them under a microscope for long enough. For a scum it's just a matter of flustering a player long enough to coax something anti-town out of their play, and then jumping on that and riding it hard till the player is dead for it. If other people had agreed with Fate's assertion that I was scummy and found their own reasons for thinking so before he had to come up with his own, I would have been too busy defending myself to press the idea that I was attacked for asking him to elaborate on his accusations and opinions. It's definitely quite a gambit, but if Fate is as experienced as he insinuates he is, and noted that I only have one other game on the site under this name and it's a newbie, he might have thought he could pull it off.

Bottom line, just because something is obviously stupid doesn't stop some people from trying it anyway if they think there's a good enough reward possible at the end. After all, people play the lottery all the time.

Azhrei's 165 puts this more succinctly than I can, though obviously the personal attacking is a bit out of line.

168: Pwnman seems to be one of a few people letting themselves sink into the background while the Fate vs me thing goes on. I also feel like I haven't seen enough of bv310 and wolf.

Seven's 170 brings up a good additional point on the whole asking someone to make a case against themselves thing.

184 is... what? o_O

@farside 175: You agree with 142 and 143? I think you skipped 144. By Fate's own logic I didn't defend Vaya, unless he wants to agree that he defended Seven, pwnman, and whoever else was that third wagon.

Agree with your assertion that people aren't your alignment just because you have the same viewpoint on something. As scum I have a thing for picking a townie and, like, hardcore defending them so I look better when they get lynched. Townies should never make the mistake of assuming someone is town just because they're friendly to them or agree with them alot.

Far, let me clarify on my quickie post re: following last night. I hadn't really read the context or anything, but I was talking about following in general, not re: vaya specifically. You're right in that Vaya doesn't appear to be particularly experienced.

I did catch something that I didn't notice when I made that post, though: you and I appear to have different definitions of what "following" entails, and I was going by my definition in that post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to define it as "agreeing with a player in a short time frame or within very few posts, perhaps suggesting that some quicktopic conspiracy was involved." My problem with this definition is, how do you define the boundary between what means someone is following and what means someone is simply agreeing with that person? Exactly what time frame or how many posts have to pass before agreeing with someone is just agreeing and not following someone?

My personal definition is a lot more clear cut, and I apologize for any confusion I may have caused in using that definition before now: To me, following is when someone agrees with someone on almost every single point for an extended period of time (say, an entire game day or longer) without giving any indication that they have their own reasons for coming to those same conclusions. that is indeed something that happens more with inexperienced players than scum players, and that's what I was referring to in 196.


@everyone: Phew, that was exhausting. Not even gonna bother editing, so if there are any typos or anything is unclear... meh. If there's anything I've missed that you would still like for me to address, kindly bring it to my attention by quoting or linking it or something. After that annoyingly time consuming post, I'm probably not going to want to touch this game again for a good day or so, so that would be a big help. Thanks!

[esuriospiritus]

Sorry starbuck - I know I'm one of those making them - But, I find it easier to express myself in a verbose fashion, and also finds it leads to better information.

This, this, a thousand times this. I just can't help myself; I don't know when to shut up. <_<;

Catching up now, expect a post in a bit.

[esuriospiritus]

@wolf: Oops, checked you out in iso and you're right. I guess your short posts are more forgettable when other people are posting huge walls.

@Fate: Good to see you can form one sentence summaries on half the game's players (177). That's not what I'm talking about as far as opinion goes, and it's the only thing I've seen from you that doesn't relate to you trying to cast me as scummy. And in any case, the fact remains that you

still

fail to answer questions I've asked of you pages ago, and I can't think of any pro-town reason for someone to avoid questioning like you have and continue to do. I am also suspicious of your convenient V/LA, which you could have given us warning on ahead of time (much like wolf so kindly did in his sig), but obviously I have no way of proving whether you're lying or not and so I guess I can let that particular point drop.

@Farside: Fate's definition of defense: "Notice I did not call any of the aforementioned players town, so, no, it was not a defense." -142. What I was saying is that by his own definition of a defense, the only person out of himself, Vaya and I who was defending anyone was Vaya. If he wants to insist that part of his "case" on me is that Vaya and I defended each other, then he needs to agree that he defended Seven, Vaya, and Pwnman, otherwise he's holding me to a double standard and expecting me to just be fine and dandy with it.

@Azhrei: I'm pretty sure Farside is always aggressive, to the point where there's pretty much no point in even noting it. This is just going off of a few random games involving her that I've read bits and pieces of, though.

Less textwall-y? Yay!

[esuriospiritus]

@Farside: Fate's definition of defense: "Notice I did not call any of the aforementioned players town, so, no, it was not a defense." -142.

Where did Fate say what a defense was? Can you provide the quote in regards to this.

Er... I did?

/points up at the quote within a quote

And here's a link, because I'm just so damn helpful like that.

[esuriospiritus]

Is it just me, or has there been a lot of subtle buddying between Fate and Iam?

[esuriospiritus]

@Farside: Fate's definition of defense: "Notice I did not call any of the aforementioned players town, so, no, it was not a defense." -142.

Where did Fate say what a defense was? Can you provide the quote in regards to this.

Er... I did?

/points up at the quote within a quote

And here's a link, because I'm just so damn helpful like that.

Okay then I'm confused how is fate defending a player with his line?

He's not defending a player with his quote from 142, he's giving his definition of what defending someone requires, and that's what I'm basing the thing I keep trying to explain off of.

1.) He said Vaya and I defended each other,

2.) but Vaya was the only one to call anyone town, which according to 142 is Fate's definition of a defense.

Therefore, either

a.) only Vaya was defending someone (me),

or

b.) Fate is holding me to a double standard by saying that I defended Vaya in 47 but he defended no one in 93 according to his own definition of what defending someone is.

The obvious double standard wouldn't bother me so much except part of his "case" on me is that Vaya and I supposedly defended each other.

This is like the third time I've tried to explain this, so if you still don't get it I guess somebody else is going to have to give it a try, because I think I've handled this particular argument with a good dosage of clarity and don't think I can explain it any better than I already have. :/

@241: Okay, but what do

you

think?

[esuriospiritus]

It isn't a doublestandard. I stated my views on the bandwagons, I took a stance against them for the reasons I stated. I was not defending those players as town.

You defended Vaya by interpreting something another person said in a particular way. This is up for much more interpretation than my strong single stance. You could have said "I think it was a misrep" as a way to defend someone more subtly than Vaya's defense of you.

Tell me why you still think my #93 is a defense of any of the players mentioned, and not a stance taken against the wagons at that time. Even if you continue think it is, you have to agree it is much different than what you did.

Actually, I don't have to agree to anything. You can't just have two definitions of what defending someone is, one for yourself and one for anyone else. And you

certainly

don't get to change that definition several days later when it suits you.

@Far: Again, for the umpteenth time, that's because he

didn't

defend anyone, and neither did I. (And if I was going to defend someone, I would have picked someone more deserving than Vaya, who still had the potential to be his usual lurky self at that point.)

tl;dr Fate said he didn't like the wagons on people, and that's not a defense. I said I didn't like the wording of one player that happened to be talking about another player, which is also not a defense. It's that simple.

[esuriospiritus]

Fair enough. I'm happy to let the point drop if everyone else is, now that far sees what I was trying to say. Fate, we are just going to have to agree to disagree, especially since I don't think you've redeemed yourself yet.

HOWEVER, we've only got a few days left if I recall correctly (4? 3?) and pwnman is lurking like hell throughout all of it. With a little help from http://www.msutils.net/search.php I did some post searching on him and while his last post in this thread is Feb. 26, he appears to have posted recently in all his other games (despite looking scummy in those, too.)

unvote; vote: Pwnman

Since replacements are not an option in this game, I feel like we should kill this guy sooner rather than later. The impression I got from glancing over his other games is that he's always this unhelpful and infrequent a poster, and so we're much better off if we minimize the damage by killing him now. The fact that he hasn't posted in several days in this game but has in his others gives him additional scumpoints, so I'm probably keeping my vote here for the rest of the game day and hoping for the best.

[esuriospiritus]

Like I said, I think the fact pwnman hasn't shown up for several days is more of an indication of scum than lazy/bad town. It's not so much a policy lynch as it is a damage control lynch -- assuming he never becomes more active than he is now, which seems likely after my search on him, it will hurt us more to let him continue to be useless day after day since replacing him is not an option. If it were an option, I would be calling for him to be replaced first, then deciding whether or not his slot needed to die based on his replacement's actions.

I am wary about the case on Starbuck; not only because you (Fate) are the one spearheading it, but because I am somewhat familiar with Starbuck's meta and she seems to have this thing for being impulsive, which is what I'm seeing here. I don't think impulsiveness in and of itself is a scumtell. I've got my eye on her, though.

Vaya's probably my third suspicion after Pwnman and yourself. I'm not really crazy about his lack of reasoning on calling Farside's posting scummy, since Far reads town to me.

Seven seems town to me in his posting lately; the fact that he hasn't put a vote down, now that I think about it, makes him more likely to be town than scum, as long as he's got it somewhere by the end of the day. I would think scum would be more obsessed about making their vote count since there's fewer of them. /shrug

[esuriospiritus]

Bleh. Tried to post this way earlier, and mafiascum was being slow as fuck and I couldn't get it through. Anyway.

---
Wow, looks like a lot's happened in a short period of time. I'm not crazy about the idea of a self-proclaimed VI being a power role, but the role and flavour appear to check out, so what else is there to do?

unvote

And now, here's something that's

really

throwing me for a loop: Fate's last few posts seem, like, ridiculously townie to me. I'm still not a fan of his playstyle, and I haven't forgotten nor entirely dismissed his manner of attack on me and how anti-town parts of it were, but the jumping on Seven's case for not having any suspects other than obvious easy ones thing combined with spearheading the jump to Jeromus while all the while waving his arms like crazy going "LOOK AT HOW QUICKLY THE PWNMAN LYNCH BUILT UP, THIS IS NOT A WAGON ON SCUM" really give me some pause. These things read townie to me because, this close to deadline, Fate could probably just coast along if he was scum, safe in the knowledge that the bandwagon on him dissipated. But no, he's as active as ever, trying to push new leads at the last minute, and, well... I just can't see scum going that far out of their way. I may need to do some re-reading of him now, to see if I can see his previous posts in this different light at all.

Jeromus... a lot of things bothered me about Jeromus' post before I even saw it bothered anyone else. The last minute declaration of, "hey, everyone needs to post their thoughts!" bothers me because this late in the day it's just going to tell scum who is viewed as the most obvtown, aka who they need to kill (if they're going to wifom against shooting pwn by assuming there's another protective role somewhere in the mix). He finds way too many people neutral, -- and here's the thing that really put up a red flag for me -- he says Azh is "aggressive and obnoxious".

What?

I did a quick iso of Azh to see if there was anything that struck me this way even remotely, and really, other than the whole personal attack on Fate thing, I didn't see anything I would define as such. But what I

have

seen is what seems to me like a fairly obvtown player. So jeromus saying his close irl friend is being aggressive and obnoxious tells the amateur psychologist in me that Jeromus sees Azh as a threat.

I could go on, dissecting his views on every player, but that was what bothered me most and bothered me before I could be influenced by anyone else's reaction to him, so that's what I'm sticking to for the sake of (relative) brevity.

Bv310's distrust of pwnman's claim even with the easily wikipediable name along with it bothers me. The claim seems rock solid to me, why the doubt casting?

Jeromus' 305 seems like he's throwing in the towel.

iam wins townpoints for digging up and exposing the latter Jeromus quote as evidence. Also, more okay with iam/fate connections now that I'm more okay with Fate in general.

vote: jeromus

upon refreshing the thread (YAY! it's up again) I believe this is

L-2

. Just so no one can say they didn't realize how close he was to hammer or anything. <_<

(btw, also upon refresh, Seven just kind of regurgitated the last two pages, didn't he? don't like his "hmm, fate, pwn or jer" thing like the fate or pwn wagons are exactly going anywhere. Smells like he's trying too hard to make his vote look more thought out than the rest of his post shows it is -- one sentence on Jer's much-discussed 294 from otherwise fairly wordy Seven? For shame!)

[esuriospiritus]

really give me some pause

*gives





(Yes, I'm really that much of a grammar whore. ;>_>)

[esuriospiritus]

ES - I also said that he grows facial hair too quickly, earlier. I believe this to be an obvious tell, I'm disappointed in you all for not picking up on it then.

Maybe this is a result of being tired on top of over caffeinated on top of being sick as hell, but... what? I don't understand this at all.

Also, insert requisite post about how I'm probably not going to be around again before deadline due to requiring sleep followed by work being inconveniently timed here.

[esuriospiritus]

...Well, that was unexpected. And here I was, all poised to go after Seven today for his suspicious 319 and general waffliness. Oh well, it's probably better this way.

Anyway, on to the next on my list:

Vote: Vaya

Farside beat me to it mostly, but I'm uncomfortable with Vaya's excessive following and all-around unhelpfulness.

I need to reread still, though.

[esuriospiritus]

Upon a quick iso of Jeromus, he's mostly coaching Vaya early on (in hindsight, my vote on him for that one sentence of his was even more of an overreaction than I thought I knew it was at the time, as the rest of that post he is coaching him, not subtly attacking him. Also this makes Vaya's 58 seem even stranger).

His later buddying-up on me is rather uncomfortable, though at the time I was just glad to have someone backing me up. I think a plausible scenario is that jeromus knew it was a town-on-town fight (at any rate, I am currently leaning town on Fate, see 321) and thus picked a side to help goad us into continuing - and happened to be pretty damn good at it, too.

Random attack on seven (109)

moar coaching of Vaya (192)

one brief obligatory mention of pwnman, since it was the cool thing to do at the time (212), then more talking to pwnman during the claim

I don't get much that I didn't already get from his post of thoughts on everyone, actually. It seems to me he was posting more based on how likable people's playing personalities were with a few nitpicks on playstyles than any known alignments.


aaaand I'm out of time, otherwise I'd finish the last half a page or so and spruce this post up a bit so it's not so rough. Oh well, no reason to not post what I've got now.

btw mod:

totally noticed the handy links on the front page and have used them lots. Thanks and please keep it up

[esuriospiritus]

oh, and btw:

@iam: Curious as how you could have read Jeromus in iso and not so much as mentioned all his Vaya-buddying. Not sure it warrants an FOS, but it is noted.

[esuriospiritus]

@ES:

It seems to me he was posting more based on how likable people's playing personalities were with a few nitpicks on playstyles than any known alignments.

@iam: Curious as how you could have read Jeromus in iso and not so much as mentioned all his Vaya-buddying. Not sure it warrants an FOS, but it is noted.

ES ES ES... I try to not tunnel you and this is what you give me? A blatant damage control? He DID know alignments, so saying "he was posting based off people's personalities" is just trying to misrepresent him. His role was to help the mafia from the shadows, so I'm sure we can find that in his posts.

The second quote is even MORE damage control+Hypocrisy. You admit ES buddy'd up to you, (I didn't see one post of yours stating how "uncomfortable" this made you) but then you use him buddy'ing up to Vaya as an attack against him?

Unvote:

Vote: Esurio

Fate, Fate, Fate. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt and then you tunnel on someone with bad logic and stupid (lack of) reasoning again. Just because he knew people's alignments doesn't necessarily mean he would react obviously to them in a certain way based on those alignments. While he would have wanted to give himself away to the mafia, he wouldn't have wanted to give himself away to the town (obviously, he didn't do a very good job of this ) and so I personally don't think there's much to be gained from his list on everyone. If you do, great for you, dig something up for us to ponder on. But me saying I don't think there's anything to be found from it != me encouraging people not to bother with it, which is the only thing that

would

qualify as anything close to this "damage control" you keep screaming about imo.


And regarding the "hypocrisy", the difference is, I know I'm town. I can't read jeromus' mind and find out why he chose to take my side the way he did, but I

do

know that I'm innocent. And, yes, if I were in your position I would be suspicious as hell about jeromus' actions towards me, but I would also note that I wasn't the only player buddied up to by jeromus. Vaya and I both had that problem, and even if I didn't know my own alignment, I would go after Vaya because of the two of us he's had the far scummier play.

So Fate, what do you think of Vaya, anyway? You haven't said a word about your opinion on him since day 2 started, but seeing as how he's tied with me for votes I happen to think you should at least have

some

opinion aired regarding him.


@wolf:

It makes no sense to me. Jer had placed AZ as town, aggressive and obnoxious yes, but town non the less, so why is Es so uppity about Jer's read on AZ?

Have you ever been scum? More importantly, have you ever been scum and had some townie in the game who is unnervingly good at reading you keeping you walking on eggshells? Let me tell you, it is quite the harrowing experience and I find it quite plausible that this would affect Jeromus' "read" on Az and make him find him to be more aggressive and obnoxious than he was actually being. It's a psychological thing.

I didn't see Jer's read as AZ is a threat, and if it was as a threat why did it make ES uncomfortable?

I think you misread. It didn't make me

uncomfortable

that Jeromus thought Az was a threat, and frankly I've no clue where you got the idea that it did, I just emphasized it because it was what I noticed before I continued reading the thread and realized other people had problems with his post.

Also she claims that Jer's post made her uncomfortable before anyone else mentioned it, but where did she mention that before? Jer's post was number 294, ES didn't post anything until 321, and plenty of people had said they had a problem with Jer's post. ES there is trying too hard to be town with her vote against Jer.

I didn't, it's called having a life that requires me to be away from a computer for longish periods of time and other people beating me to the punch. It's not my fault I sometimes can't be around when an exciting new development happens and I certainly shouldn't be called "trying too hard" for being late to the game.

@Starbuck 381: iam and fate have been buddy-buddy all game. Be wary of it, but note that it's not actually an indication of scumminess unless it's in conjunction with a known scum alignment of either of them. To quote you out-of-context, there is quite obviously a link between the two of them, it's just hard to tell what exactly it means right now.

re: traitors: I've been in another game that had one before, but they always seem to get themselves offed early on like this, and I haven't been scum in a game that's had one (including this one, of course, though I fully expect people to take that claim with a grain of salt given that I'm not dead ). However, I would expect the scumteam psychology end of last game day would have been to hop on the easy lynch that was probably town. Obviously they couldn't have known they were lynching someone with their win condition, so why not make up a sentence or two of reasoning and get your vote on the popular wagon? Or, better yet, be Vaya and give

no reasoning at all

? I mean, c'mon, seriously, I haven't seen almost anyone say a word about Vaya's terrible late L-1 vote, and if Vaya flips scum I fully intend to go after the people who are just pretending Vaya's not even in the picture.

[esuriospiritus]

Fate, you two seem to be spending a lot of time reinforcing the other's viewpoints and that sort of thing. It's nothing so blatant as what Jeromus did toward me, and I don't expect anyone to decide not to vote me just because you and iam obviously have some tie to each other and never said I did. I should have worded myself better; your overt friendliness towards each other was disconcerting to see so early on but you're absolutely right that it's not as severe as Jeromus' buddying up to me.

Thanks for actually giving your thoughts on Vaya and not coming up with some mysterious reason not to like I was half expecting you to. Your playstyle... well... boggles me, the way you are sometimes quite willing to give your reasoning or opinion and other times stubbornly refuse to for no discernible reason. My brain can't decide if it's scummy or not and explodes when I attempt to come to a decision on that end, but it is sure as hell

weird

.

[esuriospiritus]

Do you honestly think that a vote like mine, that would tend to draw reactions like yours, is really more likely to be scum motivated than town? Don't you think that if I were scum jumping on what I would believe is a mislynch, that I would try to make an attempt to make myself look town instead of just putting my vote where I think it needs to be? And exactly how long have you been playing mafia anyway? In your experience, are scum more likely to vote without stating reason than town?

a. Yes, I do
b. no, not necessarily, but nice WIFOM
c. I've been playing mafia for about a year now (mostly on another site), thanks for the pompous appeal to your own assumed seniority, though.
d. It's not entirely unheard of for a townie to fail to give any reasoning for their votes, but I've seen scum get lazy at the end of a game-day and fail to give reasoning for their votes more often than I've seen town. I've seen it theorized (albeit elsewhere, and this might not apply to the same extent here) as this being because more people prefer playing as town and put less effort into their scumplay.

For what it counts, I've had others say that I have a style that tends to make them think I'm scum when I'm town.

If you want to ever actually convince anyone you're town, especially when there are indications to the contrary, wouldn't it be a good idea to do what you can to remedy this? Just sayin'. <_<

[esuriospiritus]

Wolf, how do you get "uncomfortable" from the phase "put up a red flag"? It was something that made me stop in my tracks and look a little closer, which is the intended meaning of the phrase; not sure how you got anything else from that.

to say that it bothered you before everyone else tells me you read it before hand and did have time to post something.

Again, you're reading me wrong or something. I never said it bothered me

before

anyone else commented on it, I was reading things

in order

and noticed some things wrong with the post

before

I continued reading and noticed that other people thought Jeromus' post was scummy as well. I therefore emphasized the things I had noticed about the post before I had read anyone else's thoughts on the subject, because I didn't want my opinion to be influenced by the opinion of people whose alignments I am unsure of. I'm really not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, but having to constantly repeat myself is fast making this game lose its fun.

[esuriospiritus]

Fate, I will remember that for the future.

Wolf, the problem with your theory is that there's nothing I can do to defend against it, seeing as how the action was not my own. All I can do is insist that I'm town and you're wrong.

And it's not so much repetition in and of itself that's driving me nuts so much as it is the fact that it's been over minor semantics all game. It's incredibly frustrating to have someone misinterpret something I say in such a way that I feel compelled to try to rewrite the same goddamn paragraph in 40 different ways before they finally get what I usually think I explained pretty damn well the first time. ;_;

I am confused by your last sentence. It looks like you are insinuating knowledge of exactly two remaining scum, but I somehow doubt that anyone could make a scumslip that horribly bad... What do you mean by "if not the only other scum"?

@everyone: can I insist you abbreviate my handle to "esurio" rather than "es"? It's easier to ctrl+f for.

[esuriospiritus]

For the lulz.

No, uh, actually I haven't had the need to yet, but I regularly ctrl+f player names to quickly see what people have said to or about them during the course of a game, and I figure sooner or later it might be helpful to me to ctrl+f my own name. And it occurred to me that lots of words include "es" and that this is potentially a problem.

More importantly, ES is an ugly abbreviation of what is otherwise an aesthetically appealing handle. As weird as this may sound, I actually care about this sort of thing, as I happen to be quite the logoleptic (in case that wasn't already obvious).

[esuriospiritus]

Bah. Sorry guys, I couldn't be arsed to deal with this game on the rare occasion I wasn't working or sleeping lately.

Actually, who am I kidding, I still can't be arsed. Later.

...>_> Fine, I'll play nice. But only because Farside asked so nicely.

@412: Ehht, I guess. 3 scum and a traitor makes more sense to me, since that's only 25%, but based on your and iam's reaction I think that might be another difference between the forums I started out playing on and here. They usually have games with a good 25-33% scum ratio and lots and lots of town powers to balance it out. Sure, there's lots of swinginess, but that's part of the fun!

@413: Oh, okay, I'm wrong. Thanks to your compelling arguing skills, I am completely convinced! >_>

@420: tbqh, I don't give a frak if commenting on the night kill is a no-no here, if I get a kick out of the fact that my number one scum at the end of day one died and flipped town then I'm going to share it with everyone whether they like it or not, and if they think I'm scummy for that, well, screw them. In case it wasn't already obvious, I am in this game to have fun, not to play the most pristine squeaky-clean obvtown game possible, because that's boring, and somehow I play better when at least one person is convinced I'm scum anyway. Like Fate, for example. Thanks, Fate.

Speaking of Fate - I gave you the benefit of the doubt based on your behaviour end of day one, but you're pretty much blatantly tunneling at this point, and that would be a problem even if you weren't just so happening to be tunneling

me

. This prompted me to re-read you today in iso, and, well, let's just say I can't believe I didn't notice before now how useless you've been all day. Let's take a look at what you've posted this game day...

351 -

Vote: Starbuck

. "I'm even more sure about this given Seven's flip." (No reason ever given for this, ????)
354 - "Farside, Jeromus was a traitor. Surely you understand the implications of this?"
356 - "oops, I misread"
357 - ebwop
371 - "ZOMG ESURIO IS DAMAGE CONTROLLING". exaggeration/misrep galore,

FOS on wolf and bv310, Unvote; Vote: esurio

373 -

praising wolf for making a post agreeing with you

(wow, nice rapid turn around regarding the guy you were FOSing a second ago)
376 - brief response to Azh
377 - noting that pwnman was replaced in another game
383 - brief responses to people
388 -

blatant esurio misrep

("I'm not quite sure I understand this position other than, "well don't vote me for buddying when THEY WERE DOING IT TOOOO"-paraphrased ES, which is a scummy position to take.")
389 - ebwop
397 - brief response to Vaya
407 - brief response to Esurio
410 - "Why are you searching for your own name?"
421 -

"Iam, join my wagon?"

424 - reaction-hunting threat @ farside
426 - "Then why did you ask?"
427 -

"Vaya, join my wagon?"

439 -

"Farside, join my wagon?"

So, uh... what exactly have you done all day? Enjoying basking in the glory brought on you by placing the first vote on the mafia traitor? Maybe you should start actively scumhunting a little more, especially since you're wrong about me and you're going to have to start re-evaluating your reads soon because of that.

My town read on you is really starting to waver based on this, and really, the only thing that's keeping me from putting an FOS or a vote on you is Jero's actions towards you day one. C'mon, you can do better, snap to it and get me some dirt on your other scum reads!

And while I'm at it:

FOS: Starbuck, bv310

. Almost no contributing, zero scumhunting, and I haven't even seen bv310 give an excuse for this. Would be okay with the lynch of either one of you.

@421-424: Y'know, when I saw 421 I was thinking 423, too. What connections do I have to Farside and Wolf, exactly, that my flip will tell anything about them? o_O Fate's blatant question avoiding strikes me as a scum move. I find it hard to believe that anyone would

actually

have a playstyle of getting under people's skin and refusing to answer half their questions unless they were intentionally playing dodgy as town in order to more easily get away with it as scum (and from what I've seen that's even more of a no-no here than talking about the night kill).

@431: I have trouble buying into "I don't have time" excuses. It would be helpful if you were putting in the effort for actual content and not fluffalicious responses when you're actually here.

@438: I see you vaguely suspect wolf. If I die and flip town, what will this make you think about him and his followrific vote on me?

This post needs some sort of conclusion tying it together. Therefore, uh, certain aforementioned people need to actually scumhunt, so there!

[esuriospiritus]

What's that, Fate? Sorry, I can't hear anything over the sound of your confirmation bias.

Just because it doesn't quite sway my opinion far enough on you to warrant a vote doesn't mean it's not worth noting or that it's not scumhunting.

[esuriospiritus]

Oh. Uh, no, it's not. D: I was noting what Fate's votes were. i r dum. Disregard.

Just to be safe:

unvote; Vote: Vaya

[esuriospiritus]

When did I ever vote Farside, anyway? o_O

[esuriospiritus]

Lawl. No harm, no foul. ^_^

[esuriospiritus]

FOS: Azhrei

If you think I'm town, you should be doing what you can to fight my lynch, not giving in and saying you'll vote me if it's what everyone else thinks is a good idea, especially since a few of those "everyone else"s are scum. To say you're willing to vote for someone you've been saying is town all game stinks of bridled opportunism.

@455: Because he's who I was voting before? My vote was to make sure my bolded votes earlier (that were actually Fate's) weren't counted.

If you're asking why I voted Vaya in the first place, I suggest you reread me in iso on the first two pages or so of today because I've already explained my reasoning and I am quite tired of repeating myself for people in this game. Vaya hasn't quite given me

new

reasons for thinking he's scum since, but hasn't done anything to alleviate my suspicions at all, either.

@456: The only problem with the starbuck lynch is that it really doesn't give any information. (and unfortunately, this is why lurking as scum is so effective, at least for the first several game days). And if we lynch starbuck, no matter her alignment I suspect there will be people who will go right back to tunneling me day three. I am sick and tired of being tunneled and, quite honestly, would rather people pushed me to a claim so they'd have a reason to stfu already. And no, I'm not necessarily hinting power there, just a claim that I have reason to believe at least one person will believe wholeheartedly. (And no,

I don't care

if softclaiming is a no-no here, though I'm not sure if it actually is.)

So go ahead, people. Vote me. Put me to L-1. Do I sound like I give a damn about keeping my role secret anymore?

[esuriospiritus]

@iam: If we kill Starbuck today, and she flips scum, who do you think should go next based on that? If she flips town? My problem with the Starbuck lynch is lack of information, so if the lead advocates for that lynch actually have an idea of where to go with it, I'd feel better about the possibility of switching my vote.

[esuriospiritus]

@Farside: Not the greatest lynch, but not the worst lynch, either. The way I see it, one of five people is going to die today bar someone doing something incredibly scummy last minute, a la Jeromus. Those people are Starbuck, Vaya, bv310, wolf, and myself. Vaya is my preferred lynch out of these people because of the Jeromus connections and basic lack of scumhunting; I also think the lynch will yield the most information, especially on the people who have avoided that lynch like the plague all day despite statements that should indicate the contrary (Fate, I'm looking at you). I obviously am never going to be for my own lynch. Starbuck's active lurking bothers me more than the case iam made on her day 1 ever did at the time (bigger fish to fry, etc.), but I worry about the lack of leads we'll get from it. Starbuck has had no outright defenders to my recollection (ie no obvious scumbuddies if she flips scum) and, if Starbuck is town... damn near nothing unless Fate or Iam flip scum, in which case I would fully recommend a quicklynching of the other. Wolf has done jack squat all day aside from his post voting me (and simultaneously getting on Fate's good side) and his flip would give us a good read on iam (the only person whose radar he didn't really fly under, I believe), if he were to be scum. Bv310 is probably going to die eventually as long as he's as AWOL as he is now (*refreshes* oh, hey, speak of the devil), but with so little information on the lynch we're better off saving that for a day when we have no better options.

So tl;dr: I still prefer a Vaya lynch, but would be chill with a Starbuck or Wolf lynch as a second, less informative option. Of the latter two I think Wolf has more interesting connections (Fate, Iam, myself, Az) than Starbuck (Iam, Fate, Vaya), but Starbuck seems to be the slightly scummier of the two because at least wolf

tried

to scumhunt.

Also, I can safely fay that I believe Esurio as town. I'd rather not reveal why, but I'm pretty certain.

OMG THE BEAV COMES OUT OF THE WOODWORK AND THINKS I'M TOWN. What a

doll

. This will be

a

m

a

z

i

n

g

for my townie reputation! What A Victor-yyyy!

@bv310: What do you think of Starbuck? Of Wolf?

Though my first reaction was, "nice deflect onto an easy lynch everyone "agrees" on?"

This. Nice to see you and I still agree on some things.

@Fate: The whole point of the soft-claim was seeing whose feathers I ruffled first (and something else that I may or may not explain post-game or upon mass-claim if applicable). Not overly surprised it's yours. Sorry, you're just going to have to convince more people to vote me if you want a claim out of me -- if I'm going down, I'm going down with the most information on my wagon possible and I can't

wait

to see which scum just

have

to know what my role is. That, and I enjoy mindfucking people. Am I a vanilla? Am I a super bulletproof cop princess mason fairy vig doctor? Something in between?

The world may never know...

Going to work. Later. Try not to do anything stupid while I'm gone, mmkay?

[esuriospiritus]

PS for the dim-witted: Killing me would count as a stupid thing. So would thinking too hard about the softclaim. Your brain might just explode, poor thing. Ciao!

[esuriospiritus]

unvote

Gonna trust bv310 on this one for now.

I'm not actually here right now and won't be around till later (hanging out with friends > mafia, sorry), but I briefly glanced over the thread's new developments and this jumped out at me.

You trust bv310? The hardcore lurker? You keep your vote on me all day, don't do jack crap, and

bv310

is the one who convinces you to unvote me? This just stinks of you previously looking for an excuse to take your vote off of me and leaping upon the first convenient excuse you found, especially since you hopped right onto the Vaya wagon, parroting someone else's reasoning for voting him.

unvote; Vote: Wolf

Will be back later to actually read the rest of the thread, sorry!

[esuriospiritus]

Okay, I am back and caught up. Writing things as I think of them and also totally exhausted, so don't expect coherence.

Vaya's claim doesn't fit perfectly, but I can see one-shot vig way easier than I can see SK, and like Fate said, at least it is verifiable. Jayne, while somewhat morally challenged, wasn't by any means an antagonist (not that any of Whedon's characters are particularly black-and-white when it comes to alignments, anyway). Vaya's insistence on using her kill however she wants is frustrating, but as someone who has been a one-shot vig before, completely understandable.

That said, I happen to think Farside is town. It's not my strongest read, or even my second strongest read, but it's up there. Confession time: I've played against Farside on an alt before and her play here seems near identical to her play there. (No, you don't get to know who I was or what game; maybe in post-game). I'm not familiar with how convincingly Farside pulls off town (iam seems to find her hard/impossible to read), but the meta is good enough for me for now. I do not support a Farside kill of any kind at this time.

I am looking forward to an iam post sometime hopefully soon; he usually has sensible things to say and is the only one who I think hasn't been around to comment on recent developments (barring, of course, pwnman) off the top of my head.

@497: Ooh! Empty threat alert!

Starbuck's skepticism of the Vaya claim was rather obvious, considering Starbuck would appear to be next-up on the list of lynchees.

If she is scum, I think it's likely that she has no way of preventing me from killing her.

lolwut. Vaya thinks Far's reaction is indicative of scum who has no way of preventing a kill on themselves. But barring bulletproof, Far could just as easily be town without any way of preventing a kill on themselves. How exactly is Far's reaction more indicative of scum facing death than town facing death?

Want to put off a Vaya lynch in light of possibly having a vig on our side. Want a Starbuck or Wolf lynch and cool with voting for either. If we kill one and they flip town, imo Vaya should totally vig the other, but of course that's not up to me. Less than 24 hours, though (12ish, I think?), and I'm not entirely certain I'll be able to post again before that deadline, so I'm sticking my vote back on the more popular wagon of my two currently preferred wagons in order to more likely help in avoiding a no lynch due to a divided town.

unvote; vote: Starbuck

IGMEOY: Wolf

[esuriospiritus]

Guys, guys, guys.

WE HAVE 2:15 left.

Why the

frak

did the thread die for 3 hours on deadline day?

[esuriospiritus]

BV, are you considering hammering SB at all? I think we are the only three online (and I'm going to work soon) and I just can't see any other lynch happening.

[esuriospiritus]

Bv is town.

[esuriospiritus]

I knew that. My math was just wrong. :<

I leave in 15 minutes, so yeah. Don't want a no lynch, but it's not really up to me. >_<

[esuriospiritus]

Probably better off to wait till tomorrow for claiming, but I'm okay with doing it first thing then if bv is. (Swear it will make sense then.)

Way late for work. See y'all on the other side (hopefully)

[esuriospiritus]

ohey, hammer.

If I die overnight, then my role will confirm Esu as innocent.

Consider it likewise.

[esuriospiritus]

OKAY HAVE TO GO NOW, BYE


>_<;

[esuriospiritus]

Do I need to explain my role to you guys now, or do you get it?

And, hey, Vaya, what happened to that kill you said you were going to place?

[esuriospiritus]

Woah, posts. Those totally weren't there when I hit submit.

[esuriospiritus]

Anyway, not Echo, but Victor.

I will tell all regarding bv and myself but it is waiting until Vaya explains himself because I have a hunch.

Goddamnit, Farside, nevermind then. Was going to see if Vaya claimed roleblocked.

Bv was supposed to give me (unimprinted doll) powers, what I am guessing based on the Dollhouse series would have been a JoaT. That didn't happen, so I 99.9999999% certain there is a roleblocker out there still.

[esuriospiritus]

Me too. In fact, I'm still having trouble remembering the circumstances he died under, but that's probably because I'm still too busy being upset about Ballard's (second) death. Tahmoh Penikett (Ballard's actor, who was also in BSG) was probably the only reason I didn't give up on Dollhouse in early season one, when it kind of sucked (sorry rabid Whedon fans, please don't kill me for blasphemy ).

[esuriospiritus]

I think a massclaim might be a good idea today, or tomorrow if we mislynch. Half the living people have claimed or softclaimed anyway. Thoughts?

[esuriospiritus]

Yeah, but see, Whedon

loves

killing people without the trite five minute death scene that people get everywhere else in cinema/television. From a writer's standpoint, I love it, but from a viewer's standpoint, it makes me very, very sad.

Bennett's death also made me sad, but only because I'm lesbian for Summer Glau.

[esuriospiritus]

Why scum would kill bv310 when he said his flip would show why esu is town, and why esu said the same thing, is beyond me.

I can't answer the first part (though I theorize that scum figured it out and REALLY didn't want us both alive and confirmed, and probably bitched about pwnman's slot getting to live, too. Mod really shouldn't have gotten our hopes up by initially replacing him, but I can save that rant for postgame). I can answer the second part, though:

And no, I'm not necessarily hinting power there, just a claim that I have reason to believe at least one person will believe wholeheartedly.

Also, I can safely fay that I believe Esurio as town. I'd rather not reveal why, but I'm pretty certain.

What a

doll

. This will be amazing for my townie reputation! What A

Victor

-yyyy!

Esu, you may want to watch who you're leaving an

impression

on.

Our roles are obviously linked, and we both obviously figured it out here. <_< The only way either of us could be lying is if we were scum pulling a gambit together, and since bv's alignment is out there for all of us to see (and especially since I softclaimed first) that's obviously not the case.

[esuriospiritus]

Yeah.

So I think we can consider Farside and Vaya town bar some crazy dual gambiting shit (we should probably test this theory if we hit lylo and neither are dead still). I am town, wolf is likely town, that leaves Fate, Iam, and Azh. And unless Fate and Iam have a mason breadcrumb somewhere I think that makes it safe to say that one of them needs to go, for all their obvious buddying will make one of their flips give us a good amount of information on the other.

Vote: Fate

I'm also mad at him for tunneling me all game, which led to my softclaim, which led to Bv dying, so yeah, voting him over iam ftw.

PREVIEW EDIT: Ohai, Azh, I see you're on the same page.

[esuriospiritus]

I already claimed, Vaya. Victor, unimprinted doll (vanilla). Was told there was someone in the game who could give me powers. That person was BV, and he was killed and most likely roleblocked as well.

[esuriospiritus]

Actually that means scum was indeed on the wagon for SB.

Of course they were. It's not like they could have known SB was SK. And even if they could have, and the scum are Fate and Iam, well... SB wasn't exactly crazy about them, anyway. They probably would have bitten the dust if she'd been left alive.

sorry for the back and forth we had going there esu.

No hard feelings. That's the nature of the game.

[esuriospiritus]

Nope, I think the general consensus is that iam and fate claim first.

[esuriospiritus]

Waiting is boring. D:

Alleviating this with a relevant .gif ...

[esuriospiritus]

2. His horrible claimed targets. Night one, he claims to have investigated the scum NK'ed when there were other people he acted more suspicious of Day 1(esu and SB). But of course he couldn't have lied and claimed to have investigated and gotten an innocent on any of his suspects N1, he never really let up on them the next day.

QFT. If he really is town and his claim is correct, well.... let's put it this way, I don't think he should get a cop role again, because his chosen targets are BAD. You don't go investigating random people, you investigate the ones you find most scummy or whose alignment it is most important to know (like clearing that one guy that nobody can ever read and who is OMGWTFawesome as scum).

((Fate, if by some remote chance you're town, I am going to MURDER you in post-game. WTF is this shit.))

Investigation roles:
Watcher - pwnman
Farside - hider/Tracker
Fate - Cop

You're forgetting Seven, flavour cop. And you're right, there are WAY too many investigation roles.

So, Fate = obvscum, but no one should hammer just yet. In fact:

unvote

We're not letting Fate or his scumpartner end the day early.

[esuriospiritus]

Are there any Buffy/Angel fans who can shed some light on what kind of cop it would most make sense for Kate Lockley to be, flavourwise?

Someone needs to unvote, we are NOT hammering this early and anyone who does is obvscum.

Farside: If you hide behind scum, will you die?

[esuriospiritus]

Farside voted Vaya immediately after N1. Is this consistent with tracking someone nowhere? Farside, why didn't you think that with 2 scum left, both would have actions of some sort? Especially with an "interesting" role like yours.

Good catch.

Also, we are NOT lynching Azh, not today. There are two pairs here, the iam/fate pair and the vaya/farside pair. In both cases lynching one will tell us a lot about the other, whereas the only people Azh really has connections to are myself (for agreeing with me so much earlier on) and Jeromus. So, safe for now.

I would prefer a Vaya lynch to a Farside lynch, and an Iam lynch to a Fate lynch, though if the scumpair is Vaya + Farside it is extremely likely that Farside is the roleblocker. Fate has a good point about his dayplay, which makes me inclined to not lynch him now that I'm over my "GRR REVENGE FOR ALL HIS TUNNELING ON ME" phase.

If I were going to completely ignore all claims and go solely on people's play, Vaya would die first, followed by iam or farside for being blehneutral all game, followed by Fate or Azh. The only reason I could see to lynch Azh requires the "too townie" fallacy.

So.

Vote: Vaya

Mod:

votecount plz

[esuriospiritus]

Well, we lynch Fate or Iam tomorrow if Vaya flips town. At this point, I can't see town losing, unless the scumteam played way better than it looks like they did and the team is Farside + Azh or something like that. >_>

[esuriospiritus]

IMO, farside+Fate seems more likely right now than iam+Fate.

Why?

[esuriospiritus]

Wolf, are you still here? I can unvote, then you can vote, then I can hammer. <_<

unvote

[esuriospiritus]

Also, sorry I haven't been around, weekends suck for me. :/

[esuriospiritus]

Oh. Well, that works.

[esuriospiritus]

And, since there is a chance I may be dead upon the morn, have a great endgame, all, and DIE SCUM DIE

[esuriospiritus]

A whole day goes by and only the two potential lynches are talking. Great.

Sorry, I'm currently homeless due to my ex-landlord being a crazy psycho on steroids and testosterone pills who threatened to rip my fiance's heart out etc etc and I have bigger things on my plate than finding the scum right now. Like, figuring out how I'm going to get a roof over my head when I've been bullied and threatened out of $605. Anyway, that's not really relevant, but at least you know now I have a good reason for not being around. >_<

Anyway, uh, I see Farside/Azh scum way, way easier than I see Fate scum or anything else (and if that's the scumteam, Fate is totally MVP and getting a medal or a cookie or something. And if it's not, well, GG having nigh-spotless townie play all game). Fate's right, we probably should have lynched Farside first. Ugh. I, of course, take what blame is due for my part in that; my head has not exactly been in the game lately for obvious reasons. I'd be cool with putting a vote down but obviously I would like for the potential scumpartners to postmoar.

In retrospect, I like how I've been saying Azh is obvtown all game. See, when people ask me why I don't like gut reads,

this

is what I'm talking about.

[esuriospiritus]

Second my tracking was just proven by a dead townie that flipped one shot vig. Vaya didn't go anywhere night one and I tracked you to wolf. So your strawman doesn't really work here.

Uh, no, it proves you have NK immunity and nothing more. You claimed after Vaya had claimed and made it fairly obvious to anyone with knowledge that she was telling the truth that she wouldn't have gone anywhere. Easy fakeclaim is easy.

@Esu: I would like an explanation on why you believe I'm scum with Azh.

Fate's play, barring his method of attack on me which I'm still not crazy about, has been far more townie than yours. On your own you are the scummiest person left alive, and barring some extraordinary good play I doubt you and fate are scum together. That leaves iam and Azh, and of the two, while Azh has certainly kept his nose clean, I feel iam has done more scumhunting.

[esuriospiritus]

expected/10

[esuriospiritus]

Mod: Can we get a prod on Iam and Azh yet, or is it too early for that still?

Also, as far as I'm concerned, a RBer is confirmed because remember, I should have gotten powers from Bv310 the night he died.

[esuriospiritus]

Hmm. Well. I'm not saying anything until we hear something of content from Azhrei, since I'm confirmed and can get away with stuff like that.

[esuriospiritus]

Ugh. I should have hammered Farside when I had the chance, rather than waiting for Azh to reply (which happened when I wasn't around -_-). I was 100% certain that Farside was scum, I just wanted to see what Azh would say so I could gauge who the scumpartner was better. Then again, I probably wouldn't have lived to the next day so it wouldn't have mattered what I thought. Wish that had occurred to me at the time.

Also, if I wasn't LA I probably would have been around to beat Iam to the hammer. Since Azh knew he was town, it should have been fairly obvious to him that the team was Far/Iam, imo. Fate was obvtown in the important parts of his play, namely the lynches he pushed. Azh let himself be swayed by Far, I think, and then voted on that. Grr.

There is something incredibly wrong balance-wise about only mislynching once and being in lylo the next day. I partially blame that on pwnman's modkill, which is WHY IT SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED ARAGHAGHAGHAGHAHGadjgsklhgjd;kh. WTF.

[esuriospiritus]

Haven't played a single FF game, (besides FFTactics)

Eh, you played the best one anyway. After FFT every game thereafter is disappointing storywise.

I haven't played Mass Effect and would want to finish playing FFXIII before playing a mafia game based on it, but you should totally make Vanille an SK just to confuse people. <_< She's too damn happy.