Mini 929: Whedonesque Mafia (Game Over)

[Seven]

I haven't played with any of you yet so hello.

What do you know about magic, Az?

[Seven]

I'm up for a Vaya bandwagon. Let's get him talking.

[Seven]

Maybe I'm trying too hard to find something good and get us further out of the RVS, but I also find his use of the word "admittedly" to be odd. I personally take the usage of such phrases as "admittedly" and "to be honest" as a subconscious tack-on that means, "I don't want to admit this, but I will anyway because I get something out of putting it out there, such as appearing slightly more pro-town or avoiding taking a stance". If you're admitting or being honest about this one thing, what are you omitting?

As someone who constantly gets slammed for using such disclaimers, I really think this is a null-tell. I do this no matter what my alignment, and have tried hard to stop because so many consider it a tell but really I think it's just a way of talking.

[Seven]

I think "slight" is still too strong. I don't think it's a tell at all.

I do agree there could be some misrep. Half the time when people get called out for lurking they were legitimately unable to post. Still not enough for me to put a vote out on jer, but noteworthy.

[Seven]

Quick question: Seven, did you get that name from Seinfeld?

What's that?

@Seven: What is your views so far? Why are you up for a vaya bw?

I haven't seen anything substantial so far. We're too close to RVS still. This is really the part of the game I hate the most because there's nothing serious to go on. Sure some things have been pointed out, but until more discussion gets going everything is a null-tell in my book.

I'm up for an anyone wagon at this stage if it gets people talking. I used to be against tunneling but if we only have 9 days I think it can be beneficial as long as we're using it to get reads off of everyone, not just the person we're targeting.

[Seven]

@Fate; Seven -- any reason you don't have a vote down on anyone?

I don't vote in RVS. I typically don't vote until I'm completely convinced someone is scum. I'd link you to meta but all the games are ongoing besides one, it would be pretty useless, and there are exceptions to this general rule of mine.

But jeromus is not the only person who has discussed Vaya's lurkerness, and it's known that it isn't because Vaya is "legitimately unable to post". Quite a few of us have expressed our concerns.

I was giving Vaya the benefit of the doubt since he admitted to lurking in other games and said he wouldn't in this one. Jer's "call out" (whether it was one or not) was based on two posts. I think it's a bit early to determine whether or not it's lurking.

[Seven]

I'm looking for scumtells. When I see any, I'll mention them. Eventually I will vote for someone.

No, I'm not asking questions. I don't have any atm, this won't be the case forever. I said I supported a bandwagon on anyone and I do, I think that's the best way to go to get discussion going. At this point we're all still figuring each other out. Vaya and pwnman are those with the most votes on them up to now, we should pick one and tunnel away.

[Seven]

I can support a bandwagon without placing a vote, as can anyone else. Right now I'm just observing, if a bandwagon starts I will participate. If nothing is going on by tonight I'll go through everything with a fine-toothed comb and start asking questions to get more conversation going.

[Seven]

Your voting me because of playstyle?

[Seven]

I'm waiting until tonight to see what happens. I like watching people play before I prompt them with questions and redirect their attention. If I started the game right away asking a million things I wouldn't get to see where people naturally go. This is just playstyle, it's not scummy. If there were a lot going on and I were still doing this then yes I agree it would be scummy.

I'm not trying to distance myself from a lynch, there's no lynch to distance myself from. You should wait until there's actually a bandwagon and more votes before you try to call me out for that. Maybe keep this one in your pocket and bring it back out in a couple days. I don't usually vote until pretty late, so it might stick

I'm all up for a Seven bandwagon, too, though. Vote away.

(And, bv, guaranteed I will distance myself from my own lynch.)

[Seven]

@Wolf: Real-time/My-time, probably midnight-ish EST.

I don't have time to respond to everything right now but I will tonight before I get into going over everyone. Even though this game is shorter I think two days is reasonable, if things had picked up more I wouldn't have had to wait as long. We still have 8(?) days to go, and as long as everyone stays active this should be enough.

[Seven]

Wolf 53:

three votes isn't a major thing in RVS stage, and to vote someone for bandwagoning in the RVS stage doesn't make much sense, how else would games get going most of the time?

I don't disagree with a pwnman vote, but I do disagree with his reasons. A fair amount of people don't like bandwagons early on in the game because they don't like tunneling especially if it's early on. I used to be one of these people. My stance has changed, but I don't think it's a tell on pwn. What I do think is suspicious about him is what IAUN brought up about him jumping on a BW after expressing he doesn't like them.

@BV 94:

See my 92.

@Wolf 95:

I should correct the word "bandwagon" to "tunneling", if me not voting is what your problem is. I do think it's possible to support a bandwagon without voting, though. You can clearly state your opinion on someone (ie this person is #1 on my scumlist for reasons A, B, C). If I was looking at a bandwagon the day after a mislynch I would include anyone who had done this about the player even if they hadn't voted, because at that point it might as well be a vote.

Just because I don't use my vote immediately in RVS or in the wee hours of the morning does not mean I'm not participating. I'm engaged in conversation, responding to your questions and addressing anything I think worthy of mention. From what your saying I could write a post like Vaya's RVS and that would be considered participation? I doubt it.

@ Fars 96:

I don't vote on a BW unless I'm convinced the person is scum. I have voted for people near day end who had no votes on them because I was convinced they were scum, and pushed (and got) their lynch. The BW is irrelevent to who I'm going to vote, it's just a means of getting everyone talking.

The point of the observation is to try and get a more objective view than everyone else at the beginning of the game. The reasons for this is just that at some point I realized replacements often had fresh insight in the game when they joined in, and I find that by not letting myself formulate an opinion on anyone right at the start I actually get to base my first impression of everyone on the way they're playing. Obviously there's a limit to how long I can do this for, there's a point at which it's no longer beneficial.

Not sure what you mean by your third question?

@Roslin 97:

All the questions that needed to be asked in the first two pages were asked. I'm always annoyed when people just repeat what others have said and avoid doing it unless I'm trying to make a point (or posting my thoughts). It is considered active lurking, I'm aware of it, I just don't think it's necessarily a bad thing at the start of a game. As I said previously, I think 2 days is reasonable.

Fate 101:

I rather you try to think of a case against yourself right now.

This should be interesting.

What?

Yes, it is interesting. That you would ask her this. Scummy as hell.

Fate 104:

Tell me why your Seven vote is any better than your Jeromus vote, and I'll consider it.

So basically you vote Roslin, and then ask her to build a case against herself, and if she doesn't you'll gladly switch your vote over to me if she builds a case against me? Can you not build a case against anyone yourself?

SB 106:

I'm not comfortable with you advocating tunneling.

I get it. I used to be against tunneling too.

Supporting a bandwagon without placing a vote is scummy.

Why is it scummy? If I explicitely say I think John is the scummiest player, and that I will most likely vote for him at some point, the vote might as well be cast. Otherwise I am supporting a bandwagon/the pressure from the bandwagon to explore a certain player. I don't need a vote to pressure a player.

This isn't playstyle, imho. This is you waiting for someone else to come up with something so you can piggyback off it.

No. If you don't agree that it's playstyle, fine. But don't say I'm trying to piggyback off anyone. I'm not waiting for anyone to buld a case on anyone else, I can do that myself. When I said I was waiting for a bandwagon I was waiting for everyone to pick someone to tunnel on. Not to make a case, not even to place a vote, just to pick who we should start with.

[Seven]

You're overreacting. The implication was that I would consider explaining my vote ES, not switch over to join her on you. Your unprovoked defense is noted, though.

How am I defending myself, exactly? Yes, I mentioned someone's vote against me. It's coincidental. It doesn't matter who the vote was against, it's weird as hell. Your unprovoked misrep is noted, mate.

After reading seven's post, I understand what he was trying to say earlier. I can see the wisdom in your playstyle, although if too many people do it, it won't work

You're absolutely right about this. It only works if there's conversation to begin with. If everyone were playing my way, we would never get anywhere.

pwnman needs to say more but Fate is giving me bad vibes right now (to whoever requested who was on top of my scum list)

[Seven]

Yeah, but here's the thing; none of this describes what you have been doing. You weren't clearly stating your opinion on anyone. You weren't supporting any bandwagon in particular, you just supported the general concept of bandwagoning. If you'd said "I agree with the Vaya wagon, but I'm not going to vote" then I would probably yell at you, because not voting at this stage is obviously inferior to voting in every possible way. But I wouldn't say you were scummy for it, just wrong. But you're not doing that.

I didn't exactly get the chance to get very far. I was trying to get people to pick someone to bandwagon on at random to get conversation going so there would be content for me to base an opinion on. Yes, I wasn't supporting a bandwagon. There was no bandwagon to support.

t's not the lack of a vote that makes you scummy. It's the lack of a firm stance on anything. It's the fact that you say "hey everybody, let's pick someone to bandwagon!" but refuse to do so yourself.

What is a "firm stance" for you at this stage in the game? You sound like you want me to have a full-fledged case on someone that would have enough to bring them to a lynch. We simply don't have that kind of info right now. When I make a case on someone and take a "firm stance", it will be to get them lynched.

And I've explained before my opinion on supporting a bandwagon without voting on it. I don't think that's your issue with it, I think what your probably saying is since I don't have a "firm stance" on anyone, how can I bandwagon. Well I've also explained that there are two reasons to bandwagon from a town perspective (IMO). One, you legitimately believe in the wagon and want the person lynched. Two, as is the case for me right now, you want to pressure someone and get everyone talking. While the pressure is on the target, the people who the pressure is off of (ie probably at least a couple scum in there) will likely slip up at some point. The reason I didn't pick someone myself is that everyone at that point was null in my book, it would have been completely random whereas I could see other people were starting to make legit votes. I figure a bandwagon is more effective if most of the people voting actually mean their vote.

Hooray, an opinion. Now, why is that scummy?

Social faux pas, answering a question with a question:

Why the hell isn't it?

[Seven]

Sev's amazing thoughts on Fate requesting someone to build a case against themselves and why it's a shite tactic!

The lame, obvious, kind of newbish answer is what you said here:

And your response to iam's legitimate question just insults my intelligence. Apparently it is a scumtell to vote someone and then ask them build a case against themselves, which the scum will then use against them, because the scum didn't even have a reason to vote them in the first place.

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of it before?

First of all, and I've said this to people before, just because you are aware that it is a scum tactic does not make you town. It makes you scum that knows what they're doing is scummy. Beyond what you said here though there are other reasons why it is not beneficial to town and to an extent even anti-town to do this.

A) The person will inevitably find mistakes that they have made, or feel they have made. Anyone without a god-complex will have this problem. There is always some self-doubt somewhere, and showing that to other players is deadly. You need to be confident as hell in this game, we've already had a talk about people who use disclaimers like "IMHO" and "I think" etc, it's the same idea.
B) The person will avoid talking about the mistakes everyone has already noticed, because they don't want to point anything out that will get them lynched, and by doing so will seem scummy.

There's really no benefit at all. If you can see one, go ahead and clarify. Until then: scummy.

Now for Fate's amazing case on Roslin!:

You vote Jeromus. You the unvote him, agreeing your reasoning was weak, and say "I meta'd him and I'll believe that is his style."

Then you vote Seven:"I don't agree with his style." Seven then explains his style, but you do not meta him.

I have one finished, newbie game, mate. NKed N1 to boot. Meta away!

Iam then asks you why what I said was scummy, and you provide an unsatisfactory answer that would require me to be a complete idiot.

Or a complete GENIUS for being scum who knows they are using a scum tactic, and having the marvelous disclaimer "If I were scum I would be too smart to do this!"

Please.

Isn't this rather equivalent to what you're attacking Fate for in the first place? You can't explain why it's scummy, so you turn the question on me? Just like Fate 'can't' come up with a case on esurio, so he turns the question on her. Funny. I'll give you an answer anyway though.

Yes, exactly. It's scummy. Thank you for proving my point.

As for your short answer, you are correct.

As for your long answer, I disagree. My long answer provided somewhere above.

And then we get to Azzie's 165. That first bit is bothering me. Blatantly claiming to know there is no scumtell in Fate's play (without bothering to meta, mind) and saying he will get lynched anyway. [disclaimer]I have lynched a player I was certain was town before[/disclaimer] but it was solely because I was certain we would get plenty of leads from the lynch. Az is even saying we won't get any info, just one less annoying player in the case of lylo. If we were talking about a lurker perhaps or someone who doesn't say anything, this wouldn't be so bad. But Fate is at least keeping discussion going, even though I disagree with him.

And by doing above, pretty much discredits the whole case he built. Is it playstyle or is it scumminess?

I still feel the same way I did about Fate, but Azzie's post is confusing.

Finally,

Pwnman you have got to be kidding me. You come back and THAT is your post? No real info just another fluff post and a threat to vote the biggest bandwagon if they don't convince you? A player that has done really nothing so far?

QFT.

[Seven]

And by doing above, pretty much discredits the whole case he built. Is it playstyle or is it scumminess?

The question is addressed to Az, about Fate. In case that was confusing.

[Seven]

Seven post 75 - how dare you not know Seinfeld! post 84: I have to disagree I think when multiple people tell you a player acts like X it's more likely true then not. Post 86: Have you gone back to try and reread and see if something was missed or if there was a question that should be asked? I don't like the idea of just waiting.

I was not denying Vaya has been lurking in the past, there's the meta there to prove it. I do think he deserves a chance in this game (ie not a policy lynch) considering he has admitted to being a lurker and said he made sure to make more time for this game.

I did read through everything again and honestly did not find very much. Discussion is flowing now, though, so there are finally some things to take notes on.

Iam tipped my hand a little too early, but I got a good amount of reads off before he explained what I was doing.
It is called: reaction fishing. I hope I don't have to explain that to you as well.

Are there no non-scummy ways to fish for reactions? Maybe some that wouldn't hurt town, kinda?

And btw you quoted me saying it was Az.

What exactly do you get?

That you are not ok with my being ok with tunneling.

It's scummy because I've seen people push a bandwagon all the way to lynch and never place their vote on it, and be voting for someone else while pushing the lynch along.

If you are forming a case on someone and pushing it, you better be voting them.

If I'm trying to get someone lynched, they will have my vote.

Don't say you are trying to piggyback off of anyone? That's exactly what you said you were going to do.

Why does everyone else need to pick someone? Why don't you pick someone?

I didn't say "hey someone make a case and I'll back it". And as I explained before it didn't matter who I picked, it only matters that we could bandwagon someone to pressure them and get people talking. I had reads on no one, other poeple were starting to get reads. It makes sense to figure out which player is getting more scum-reads at that point.

Exactly. What is a firm stance at this point?

You said here that you feel that iamausername wants you to have a full fledged case. Well, that's the exact way that you have been acting towards the rest of us.

And you said it in the bolded, so stop and take a step back because if you can't do the above, how can you expect the rest of us to just yet?

I don't think it's possible to have a firm stance at this point in the game. How am I asking everyone else to have a firm case? I don't believe in firm cases this early on. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying if you think I want everyone to have a firm stance on anything.

I just finished spending major time in another game and need to get some sleep right now, I'll properly read everything by the end of the weekend.

[Seven]

It was necessary for me to go back on things I'd read before, so if some of this seems old SUCK IT.

@Fate: Since when is defending someone scummy?

Err, yeah... slippery slope we're embarking on here. It's just not a tell. Scum will just as easily defend each other as they will go against each other, depending what the advantage is at the time. Same goes for town. Let's also not forget that this is D1. Our opinions will likely change quite a bit, who we defend (or attack) will as well. Seems irrelevant to discuss whether or not it was scummy in this particular case.

What? When did I say that was my entire reason? I was just building on the case that I had not revealed before.

I'm so annoyed when people do this... "I have other secret hidden things in this top secret file that is my massively awesome case against you! [I just don't want to show you any of it because then you'd expose how wrong I am!]"

I'm not saying Fate's case is wrong (if there is one), but until it is revealed as far as I'm concerned there is no case, and any referral to said inexistent case is pointless.

It is called: reaction fishing.

Ohsolame. Easiest cop-out in the world. We can all do scummy things now and say we were reaction fishing? YES!

Vaya's 181 gives me a bad gut feel. I was mostly neutral on him in the beginning, but I disagree with him on so many points and feel like he's just trying so hard to make himself sound... I dunno. Above all speculation, or something.

Examples:

I believe that someone who sees something the same as I do like that is likely to be playing to the same win condition [town] I am.

Which he contradicts with

I no longer have any problem with Fate. His posting does make sense coming from town, and I can understand his case against Es, though I disagree with him.

Explain?

Stupid question. I've already said that I believe she's town. Why would I assume she's scum?

...Why would you assume she is town? Beyond "she thinks like me and I'm town", because if you're scum, well...

I agree with the last bit from Fars on Vaya in 182.

@Vaya Why vote pwnman? He seems to be pulling the same gambit as Fate did, it's the only reason I can see for you voting him.

Her attacks are just bad, like scummy bad. I'm not too sure about her being scum though right now, she might just be biased because of what she thinks of me and my previous lurking, and also, from what I have seen of her play in previous games, she tends to always read scummy to me. Still, she sounds like scum to me right now.

So if she's most likely biased and always reads scummy, why do you think she's scum?

[Seven]

@Fate 238: I will vote before the end of the day, undoubtedly. I want to hear more from pwnman and more from Fate on ES and more from BV on everyone. What's the rush? I WILL vote.

Its not a strong read right now for the reasons mentioned, but she's still just as capable of being scum as anyone else, even if she usually reads scum to me as town.

You're avoiding my question. I don't care if the read is slight or not, why is it a scum read at all?

[Seven]

I don't believe pwnman right now, but if we lynch him right away we have no leads on his buddies. I don't have a scum read on SB either right now. I can't say I agree with her but she's feeling pretty neutral. I would like to consider BV. I'm going to read his ISO and I'll comment tonight after pwn posts.

[Seven]

Holy **** 12 pages and the only leads you have are the two with the least posts?

Gross misinterpretation. I said I wanted to look into him, how does this bar everyone else? 12 pages of posts, and the guy with the most votes is one of the people with the least posts (more importantly the least content). And me mentioning that I'm going to look at BV warrants me a HoS? Right, that makes perfect sense...

Seven why do you not believe pwnman's claim?

Maybe this is just because it's my first theme game and I'm not used to this kind of roleclaim, and I understand that he is paraphrasing his role PM but the doc part seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Just watcher makes sense, but only scum would have any reason to lie about becoming doc if someone is going to be killed. If anything it seems like it would be a scum role. Watchers would be targetting people who are thought to be scum, and scum would not likely target those same people. Why give the doc role?

Jer's 294 is scummy. So many neutral and town-ish vibes... too easy for scum to hide behind. I also tend to disagree with most of what he said.

I looked in to BV and most of it was useless. I want more from him D2 but I can't see lynching him today as being useful.

Fate, pwn, or jer... Tough call. I'd say Fate is seeming consistent with his crappy scumhunting which suggests it's a playstyle issue, but at least is providing content. pwn has crappy scumhunting and is providing no content but has a crazy-ass claim. I'm waiting for a reply to what I said above before I think about him more. jer may end up being the best way to go all things considered. I don't know if I'll be able to come back before deadline so I'm going to

Vote: jer

. If pwnman is indeed what he claims we may gain valuable information D2.

[Seven]

Arghhh I hate getting NKed! Who made the shameful decision of NKing me so I can swat him/her...