Mini 929: Whedonesque Mafia (Game Over)

[iamausername]

Three people will votes already, two of them I've played with before. Obviously, I should vote for the odd man out.

Vote: Seven

[iamausername]

Unvote, Vote: pwnman

bv310, do you agree?

[iamausername]

Oh, you don't have to, I was just wondering if you did.

[iamausername]

Unvote, Vote: pwnman

bv310, do you agree?

What? Again, please explain.

Actually, yeah, with the shorter deadlines I guess we don't have time for me to faff around trying to illicit reactions before I get around to explaining myself.

pwnman voted Vaya for bandwagoning. Voting someone for bandwagoning in the early stages of D1 is counter-productive at best; you kind of need bandwagons to happen in order to get out of randomness. I mean, I guess one could make the arguments that bandwagons don't do that unless people object to them, but then you start to get into the chicken and egg argument and end up going round in circles.

Anyway, that alone isn't enough for me to seriously consider pwnman as scummy, but to cap it off, he's also engaging in blatant hypocrisy. He's voting

Vaya

for bandwagoning. Vaya, the only person to have really received serious attention so far, for her apparent history of lurking. So he's condemning bandwagoning, while hopping on the only actual substantial bandwagon that exists at the moment.

[iamausername]

@iamusername: So sorry for reacting to your odd vote. Isn't that what you just said you wanted? Reactions? Sigh. You've evidently taken a dislike to me already, judging by your tone.

I seriously have no idea where you're getting this from.

Because a BW in RVS could turn into a quicklynch, which I have had happen to me before

Link plz.

[iamausername]

I haven't seen anything substantial so far. We're too close to RVS still. This is really the part of the game I hate the most because there's nothing serious to go on. Sure some things have been pointed out, but until more discussion gets going everything is a null-tell in my book.

I'm up for an anyone wagon at this stage if it gets people talking. I used to be against tunneling but if we only have 9 days I think it can be beneficial as long as we're using it to get reads off of everyone, not just the person we're targeting.

I don't vote in RVS. I typically don't vote until I'm completely convinced someone is scum. I'd link you to meta but all the games are ongoing besides one, it would be pretty useless, and there are exceptions to this general rule of mine.

So tell me, exactly what worth are you providing to the town here? You're not picking out any scumtells, you're not voting, you're not asking any questions... What is the point of you, Seven?

[iamausername]

I said I supported a bandwagon on anyone and I do, I think that's the best way to go to get discussion going. At this point we're all still figuring each other out. Vaya and pwnman are those with the most votes on them up to now, we should pick one and tunnel away.

But everyone else should do it, not you?

[iamausername]

Unvote, Vote: Seven

Obviously.

[iamausername]

I disagree with throwing around the term "straw manning" so easily. It has a connotation of malignant intent.

I think it's supposed to.

Votes without justification serve little to no purpose.

No, you're wrong.

I do think it's possible to support a bandwagon without voting, though. You can clearly state your opinion on someone (ie this person is #1 on my scumlist for reasons A, B, C). If I was looking at a bandwagon the day after a mislynch I would include anyone who had done this about the player even if they hadn't voted, because at that point it might as well be a vote.

Yeah, but here's the thing;

none of this describes what you have been doing

. You weren't clearly stating your opinion on anyone. You weren't supporting any bandwagon in particular, you just supported

the general concept of bandwagoning

. If you'd said "I agree with the Vaya wagon, but I'm not going to vote" then I would probably yell at you, because not voting at this stage is obviously inferior to voting in every possible way. But I wouldn't say you were scummy for it, just

wrong

. But you're not doing that.

It's not the lack of a vote that makes you scummy. It's the lack of a firm stance on anything. It's the fact that you say "hey everybody, let's pick someone to bandwagon!" but refuse to do so yourself. Basically, this:

If we're still going with the bandwagon metaphor, then you're the guy running alongside the bandwagon, whilst everyone in there says "You know...You can stop running and hop in" and you don't, responding with "Nah, I don't want to be seen hanging out with you guys".

except you're not even running alongside the bandwagon, because someone might still see you hanging out with it. You're just sitting on the starting line watching.

I rather you try to think of a case against yourself right now.

This should be interesting.

What?

Yes, it is interesting. That you would ask her this. Scummy as hell.

Hooray, an opinion. Now, why is that scummy?

A post like your big one makes me feel a little better about you.

Did you read it? It's got a lot of words, but it's still very nearly as devoid of anything useful as all his other ones.

Y'know, Seven's right. Asking me to build a case on myself for him

is

scummy as hell.

Again, why?

[iamausername]

If he thinks I'm scummy, he should build his own case on me instead of trying to get me to build it for him.

Saying "he shouldn't do that" doesn't answer the question. Why is it scummy?

Also, that he would resist giving any reasoning whatsoever for his vote so long makes me suspicious that maybe he didn't initially have any reasoning and just wanted an excuse to not answer my questions and thus take too many stances.

Scumhunting doesn't work like that, sorry. Scum aren't going to jump out and reveal themselves by doing something as obviously stupid as saying "I have a case on you" when they actually don't. There's a reason why it's called scum

hunting

, not scumwaiting-around-until-they-give-themself-up.

Hooray, an opinion. Now, why is that scummy?

Social faux pas, answering a question with a question:

Why the hell isn't it?

Isn't this rather equivalent to what you're attacking Fate for in the first place? You can't explain why it's scummy, so you turn the question on me? Just like Fate 'can't' come up with a case on esurio, so he turns the question on her. Funny. I'll give you an answer anyway though.

Short version: unconventional =/= scummy.

Long version: Asking someone to try to make a case against themself could be very useful in determining their alignment, and therefore obviously has a clear pro-town benefit. A town player, asked to examine their own play and try to reason out what they could possibly have done to merit suspicion would approach the question from a very different perspective than a scum player, because the scum player knows the suspicion is justified, while the town player knows it is not.

It does not have any obvious pro-scum application that I can think of. Someone building a case against themself is never going to come up with something that will actually convince people to vote them, so the idea that scum would use this to make a townie get themselves lynched is patently absurd.

[iamausername]

I think that Fatye is either bad-town or bad-scum, and either way, a worthwhile lynch. THis is the most risk-free time to dispose of him, there's a halfway decent chance he's scum, and even if he isn't, he's too big a liability to keep on our hands.

This kind of thing would throw up huge red flags even if it was talking about someone who actually warranted the "bad town or bad scum" label, like say, pwnman. It's like a pre-emptive justification for being involved in a mislynch, and smacks of a guilty conscience.

On the other hand, though, his later apology offsets some of the bad vibes. This little bit in particular definitely reads as genuine to me:

I'm now unsure of what to think of you, and can see your play as fitting both scum and town, which annoys me (

not because of you, but because of my own inability to see what's going on

).

I dunno. Gut feel says Azhrei is more town than some of the other Fate wagoners, at any rate.

Isn't this rather equivalent to what you're attacking Fate for in the first place? You can't explain why it's scummy, so you turn the question on me? Just like Fate 'can't' come up with a case on esurio, so he turns the question on her. Funny. I'll give you an answer anyway though.

Yes, exactly. It's scummy. Thank you for proving my point.

Uh... did you just admit to being scum? I didn't say it was scummy. I was trying to demonstrate that perhaps it is

not

as scummy as you think, by showing that you were doing the same thing. But what you pick up from that is "Yes, exactly! I'm doing it too, that proves that it's scummy!" Nice one.

...I can see

no possible

town motivation for asking someone to build a case on themselves. It just doesn't compute for a townie to ask that whatsoever. Therefore it follows in my mind that that action must be scum or neutral motivated.

See, you're stopping the thought when you're only halfway done. Once you've got through "I can see no town motivation", you can't just say "therefore there must be a scum motivation". You've got to think of what the scum motivation actually is, and if you can't do that, then the play is not scummy, it's just incomprehensible.

Voting for anyone who doesn't fit into your narrow definition of how a townie should act is a bad, bad way to approach the game.

iamausername

- post 35: What are you asking bv310 if he agrees with

My vote.

and why bv310?

No particular reason. Just picked a random player that I didn't have any kind of read on, which could have been almost anyone at the time.

Not even reading the game is poor town play.

Iam pointed out clear as day why he didn't think it was a scummy action, and pointed out exactly where the pro-town motivation lies.

It's poor scum play too, though. My comments to esurio above apply just as much here.

Iam-Votes Seven for "obvious reasons" (not explaining them), BEFORE I vote ES. But no one jumps on Iam for that-or even mentions it- like ES and friends jumps on me. Makes me think I hit scum.

I don't know, I think it might be because my reasons were fairly obvious from our exchange, while your reasons for voting esurio were not.

I'm just not getting much of a scum feel from esurio. I think there are much better picks in Seven, which I've explained fairly extensively already, and jeromus, who gives me the distinct feeling of scum egging on a town/town fight from the sidelines with comments like this:

So...because she makes a Meta about me and not about someone else, along with her talking smack 'bout you, she's clearly scum!

because, you know, repeating someone's argument in a sarcastic tone is such a great way to refute it. Clearly.

(yes, the irony is intentional)

---

Starbuck, why are you voting me? You're getting on Seven's case for supporting bandwagons without voting, and yet you're still sitting on a random vote that, as far as I'm aware, you don't have any reason for. Something doesn't add up there.

[iamausername]

pwnman, character name, and a paraphrase of why that character has those abilities, now. (DO NOT QUOTE YOUR PM)

I think he's questioning your lack of vote on seven more then your vote on him.

Bingo.

I also would rather get rid of someone who is active lurking (especially with the no replacements rule) rather than someone who is actively contributing.

But not enough to actually vote for someone who's active lurking, instead of hopping on the popular bandwagon of the day which just happens to be on one of the most active contributors in the game. Too bad for you that train's already left the station.

pwnman lynch is totally meh. He hasn't given any reason for anyone to really object to it, which is exactly the problem - if he's scum, you can bet that his buddies will be bussing, and if not, they'll be pushing the easy wagon, but either way, it's pretty difficult to tell the difference between town and scum when they're both saying "well, this guy's useless, let's lynch him". The ideal way to deal with that kind of player is to let the vig take care of them, assuming we have one, of course. But failing that, a lynch does become kind of a necessary evil.

But still, whatever the flip, a wagon that's based on

scummy

play, instead of

lack of

play, is going to be better for getting good reads later on, because there's actually something there for people to disagree about. Which is why I propose we wagon the hell out of Starbuck right away for being completely hypocritical in attacking Seven for something she was doing too, and that terrible hop onto the Fate wagon. Go on, you know you want to.

Unvote, Vote: Starbuck

[iamausername]

Oh man, now I have to follow Fate

again

. But seriously, guys:

But Fate, that was because I believed we needed a lynch. As I said, getting a lynch at all is generally a good idea, and I believe that both you and Pwnman are good candidates for such a thing. Before, I was expecting that a Pwnman lynch was the only way that such a thing would be accomplished - As you may have noticed, Pwnman has become considerably less voted; so I was now free to post my opinion.

Do you know why it looked like a pwnman lynch was achievable while a Fate lynch wasn't? Because people like, oh I don't know,

you

stopped voting for Fate and started voting for pwnman.

Suggesting that pwnman having lots of votes (a situation which

you

were partially responsible for) somehow prevented you from speaking your mind is preposterous. You were always free to post your opinion. In fact, you did:

I agree with Az - Pwnman is the most productive lynch with what we have today - Though Fate is a close silver.

See now, that doesn't look anything like "I'd rather lynch Fate, but that doesn't seem possible". That looks like "I'd rather lynch pwnman, but Fate would be good too". Isn't that odd?

I am so down with this wagon.

Unvote, Vote: jeromus

[iamausername]

Vote: Starbuck

I need to reread to get a better handle on everyone else, but I'm pretty sure this is still the right vote.

[iamausername]

Just read jeromus in iso, because I figure a traitor would probably try to subtly announce himself to his scumbuddies.

Well - I'm with Esurio - I see no reason i would benefit the town.

This looks like it could be doing just that (plus, y'know, jeromus constantly protecting esurio from Fate's attacks doesn't exactly look great for her). Just the way "I'm with Esurio" is shoved between dashes like that makes it seem like it was deliberately designed to stand out.

From Post #294, where he says something about every player:

Starbuck – Look, Iam was really not getting up in arms about that; that claim was hardly valid, but other than that, you’ve been neutral.

Looks a lot like coaching to me.

Bv310? - I've got nothing. Try posting. Please, I beg of you.

This does too, a bit.

---

Not going to draw conclusions before I've reread the rest, but I'll definitely be keeping an eye on the three players mentioned above.

[iamausername]

OK, done with the rereading:

Azhrei

My #1 town read. I think esurio makes excellent points regarding jeromus's interactions with him displaying signs of being concerned that Azhrei would figure him out, and his posts in general just give me a good feeling, especially Post #301 which was not only a fairly pivotal moment in getting jeromus lynched yesterday, but clearly shows Azhrei actually thinking critically about things. He'd spent most of the day being on the side of jeromus et al in hounding Fate, but when jeromus started doing so in a really scummy manner, Azhrei was one of the first to pick up on it and take him to task for it. I think it would benefit scum greatly to keep the spirit of there being two sides - the pro-Fate and anti-Fate camps - and by crossing from one to the other, Azhrei did much to shut that down.

bv310

Extremely lacking in contribution, and even with what little he has posted, there's some scummy stuff. His hop onto the Seven wagon leaves much to be desired (this really seems to miss the point - it's not that Seven was supporting a wagon without a vote that had me on his back; he

wasn't

supporting any wagon, that was the problem), and this definitely rubs me the wrong way, especially given that pwnman lived through the night as a claimed power role. Could be scum hoping they could set him up for a mislynch today.

esuriospiritus

I'm in two minds here. Reading some of jeromus's posts in the context of the thread, and not in isolation, I'm still getting more of a feeling that he was egging on a town/town fight rather than protecting a buddy. But there's still the oddness of that "I'm with esurio" post that really looks like a traitor breadcrumb to me, and there's a couple of esurio things that I find suspect as well: Post #257, I dislike the word 'subtle' here, because it is completely false; there was nothing subtle about it, and suggesting that there was gives the whole thing a shady edge. And Post #359, commenting on the night kill in general is a red flag, and especially saying "boy, isn't that surprising, I was going to go after him" really comes off as someone trying too hard to disassociate themselves from the kill.

farside22

I'm wary of her, because I am always wary of farside. She's one player that I just can't read, ever, so I'm kind of hoping that something or other will happen that'll mean I don't have to evaluate her on her words alone. Dead scum traitor not showing any signs of protecting her is a good sign, but it could just be because she didn't need any protecting. Not seeing a reason to go after her at the moment, but you know, once bitten twice shy and all that.

Fate

Definitely having a hard time seeing him as scum after how much jeromus pushed his lynch, and more to the point, tried to influence everyone else into pushing his lynch. #2 town read, and I'm pretty damn confident about both.

pwnman

Based on the his claim and the way his wagon went down, he's probably town. And he's also probably going to be modkilled for flaking. Sigh.

Starbuck

Scummy scum scum. Wild hypocrisy in attacking Seven, and constantly trying to misrepresent the case on her into something totally insignificant when it actually isn't - first there was suggesting that because it tangentially involves her random vote, that meant the case was based entirely on her random vote, now there's the fact that I didn't repeat the case in its entirety today meaning I have no case. This from someone who has whined about unnecessarily long posts.

Vaya

Not seeing it. Not seeing where jeromus is so obv protecting him, not seeing any huge scumminess in his posts.

wolframnhart

Worries me quite a bit, actually. He's posting enough to avoid the lurker label (ie. more than pwnman/bv310), but he's still really light on substance. I find it hard to pin down any solid stance he's taken all game. He attacked pwnman (aka the easy target), but apart from that, he really kept out of most of the arguments on D1, and just threw in a few snipes at various players. And, just as with bv310, he seems apt for the role of scum leaving pwnman alive in the hope they could lynch him today, based on these two posts.

On the other hand, he is actually taking a solid stance today, and I think he does make some pretty good points against esurio, especially the suggestion that jeromus may have self-hammered because scum were already on his wagon. And there's another I dislike about esurio that I forgot to mention above - the whole "did wolf just slip and admit he knows how many scum there are bit?" is totally asinine. There's pretty much no way to balance 4 scum in a 12 player game unless they have no night kill, and 2 scum where one was a traitor would really stretch the definition of 'informed minority'. It's not scummy to assume we started with 3 scum, it's just common sense.

---

So, in summary, I'd definitely prefer esurio to Vaya, which seems to be the two directions we're considering taking, but it really ought to be Starbuck. I could also see bv310 or wolfram as being worthwile pursuits.

[iamausername]

Iam is most of your case on esurio based only one what jero stated?

Yeah. This is why I'm reluctant to actually go along with esurio as the lynch, because I really think there is a much better case against Starbuck. Or bv310. Maybe even wolf. esurio is more likely scum than Vaya, but she's far from the best candidate we've got here. As I said, jeromus's comments on the Fate/esurio argument read much more as scum egging on a town/town fight than scum protecting a buddy.

Why the flip of vote from seven to SB? I don't see a reason that you gave up on seven to go for SB in isolation.

Really? I thought this was pretty clear:

I propose we wagon the hell out of Starbuck right away for being completely hypocritical in attacking Seven for something she was doing too, and that terrible hop onto the Fate wagon. Go on, you know you want to.

The fact that Starbuck was being so hypocritical in how she was attacking Seven made me lose my faith in that wagon. Felt like scum was latching onto my case, which they tend not to do to other scum.

I notice that when iam changes votes from seven to sb and then to jero it's based on what they said. He's not aggressively going after the person he called out and then jumps on the next thing he finds scummy.

That's just because people kept outclassing each other in scumminess. Starbuck did something much worse than Seven, and then jeromus did something worse than her.

His latest list of players and what he finds on them is indepth with sound reasoning. I find his jumping votes a bit odd. Again this could be because I'm more aggresive towards someone and get everything I can get unless someone does something that I found more scummy and I don't see why he found one player more scummy.

Oh. Well... I did. Starbuck's hypocrisy was scummier than Seven's refusal to participate, and then jeromus clearly lying about his motivations was scummier than that. If it's not clear why each one is scummier than the previous, I don't know what else I can say, really.

bv310 - I know from seeing him in Big brother mafia he can contribute better then he has.

He was town in that one? Sounds like it might be worth looking into some more bv310 games.

esuriospiritus - Other then that she defends herself well under the pressure from Iam and Fate on a case I just didn't really get.

I don't think I was really pressuring esurio on D1; I disagreed that Fate not stating his reasons was scummy, but I never agreed with his case even after he actually gave the reasons.

blah blah jeromus/Vaya connection

I'd put you down as one of the more pro-town players in this game

an endorsement which I really don't see the basis for.

Alright, this part I can grok to. The rest isn't selling me, especially the last point - I don't think it's worth reading anything into the things jeromus said after he was lynched, since by that point he was obviously

trying

to throw us off. But yeah, I guess there really wasn't a lot of basis for this endorsment.

So, OK, I guess there's something in jeromus's play to put suspicion on Vaya. I don't think it's as concrete as the weird "I'm with esurio" comment, and I still haven't seen anything from Vaya's play that's particularly scummy, so at best, it's on a par with the esurio wagon. ie, got nothing on the Starbuck wagon.

Anyway,

Unvote
Vote: Starbuck

I don't see why this lynch can't happen today. Everyone seems to say they'd be happy with this lynch, and I haven't liked a few things she's said myself, but everyone's just seem to have accepted that it just won't happen today. I'd much prefer a Starbuck lynch to esu.

Yeah, see, this kind of thing makes me really not want to lynch Vaya. Not only is he entirely correct, but also, this is not what a scum in his situation would do. Scum Vaya would find an excuse to go along with the esurio wagon, because that is his best chance of survival.

Does anyone disagree that Starbuck was being completely hypocritical in the way that she attacked Seven? Has anyone seen any kind of scumhunting from Starbuck? Or am I correct to say that her play has consisted entirely of misrepresenting the case against her and attacking her accusers based on the strawman constructed therein?

That's what I thought. So why aren't you voting for Starbuck? Yes,

you

. Tell me.

[iamausername]

everyone NOT on her wagon has to be scum

Need some clarification here. Doesn't this mean that you won't ever be able to hammer outside of lylo? There's always going to be at least one townie off the lynching wagon otherwise, because there aren't enough spaces on it for all of them.

[iamausername]

I'm here right now, but only have enough time to make this post before I leave for work.

I've seen no reason to move my vote away from Starbuck, and I want to reiterate that lynching Vaya today would be an absolutely ridiculous thing to do when he has claimed a completely provable role.

bv310 has moved futher up on my suspect list with a second round of attempting to disparage an obviously town claim for horrible reasons, and softclaiming some kind of information role. And, you know, continuing to be pretty useless otherwise.

Letting softclaims like that slide by only helps scum. If a town player softclaims, the town are still left confused, because they don't know exactly what info you have, but the scum still get the "I AM A POWER ROLE, KILL ME" message that they'd get from the full claim. There's simply no reason for a town player to softclaim an info role like that; if you're going to claim at all, you might as well go all the way and claim everything. For a scum player, on the other hand, it's very useful, because it means they can take more time to figure out exactly the best claim to suit them. They don't want to be pinned down to one definite claim, because then someone might be able to expose them as a liar.

But there's no time left to deal with that today, which I really should have thought about earlier instead of spending those hours playing Final Fantasy XIII. But hey, as long as Vaya doesn't get lynched, I'm not going to feel too bad about it. That game owns.

[iamausername]

Massclaim seems like a good idea today.

Also, I thought wolf's role was still overpowered until I took at his clarification again. Everyone should keep in mind that for him to be able to hammer, everyone NOT on the wagon needs to be scum, which is hopefully impossible at 7 alive and 4 to lynch(there would still need to be three scum alive). His role isn't really of any use to us right now.

If its between Fate and iam today, which I do believe it is due to wolf ability and me being pretty sure everyone else on the wagon is town, I have a preference for iam.

Vaya, please explain how exactly you come to the conclusion that the lynch should be between me and Fate due to wolf's ability when you clearly haven't misinterpreted wolf's ability like everyone else. Is it because you are scum who is happy to let the town go ahead with a mislynch based on false assumptions? Because that's the only reason I can think of.

Going to reread again, because it seems like most of my reads must have been off, but for now,

Vote: Vaya

[iamausername]

Pretty sure the idea I had on having people vote for one person and doing a switch will find the scum.

No. You are still missing the other part of wolf's role: for wolf to hammer, everyone on the wagon must be town and EVERYONE OFF THE WAGON MUST BE SCUM. This is impossible outside of lylo, which we are not in. Observe:

player (3) - TOWN1, TOWN2, TOWN3

not voting (4) - TOWN4, TOWN5, SCUM1, SCUM2

wolf still can't hammer this wagon, even though there is no scum on it, because TOWN4 and TOWN5 are not on it.

Get it?

[iamausername]

You see, when I first typed up that whole post, I

was

interpreting wolf's ability the same as everyone else.

I got clarification from the mod

for my vote to work, everyone on starbucks lynch has to be town, and everyone NOT on her wagon has to be scum. Unfortunately this doesn't truely narrow down people, starbuck could still technically be scum, but that would mean bv310 is town, and vice versa of starbuck being town and bv310 being scum. All this really means is what everyone already knows, that scum is on starbucks wagon/.

unvote

Alright, that makes more sense, and isn't as gamebreaking as it first sounded.

So what were you talking about here? Or am I supposed to believe that you realised your misinterpretation yesterday, then forgot it overnight, then realised it again halfway through writing a post today?

[iamausername]

I'm Buffy, the vampire slayer! And you are?

I'm also a vanilla townie, and I am starting to suspect that I may be the only one. Which makes sense, since my flavour is all about how the reason I've survived (well, mostly. I died a couple of times, but I got better) for so much longer than the average slayer is because I have friends I rely on. So that's what I've got to do here. No powers of my own, so I need to rely on the rest of you guys.

p.s.

Unvote

, because Vaya's explanations for the apparent contradiction actually make sense.

[iamausername]

I have no active abilities, and am essentially a vanilla townie, except that I'm hard to kill (due to my vampiric nature). It isn't specified whether this means that I'm unkillable or unlynchable, so I'm unsure as to the exact nature of it. However, my pm informs me that there are people who can kill me.

So guyz, who can kill vampires?

Huh. I mean, the obvious answer to that question is 'a vampire slayer', but I don't have any night action, so I don't know how that works. Unless it's another weird thing with voting. Or it has nothing to do with my role and that's just a red herring.

You know, given the flavour of Seven's death strongly indicating a vampire was responsible, and the fact that their claims don't really fit together (if Azhrei has some sort of immunity due to his vampiric nature, why doesn't farside?), and the fact that NK-immunity seems like a pretty likely scum ability in a game with an SK and a vig, I'd bet there's a scum between the two of them.

Why would you investigate someone you had a difficult time reading?

What a silly question. This is so not the issue with Fate's claim.

The issue is that Fate threw in sanity issues to his claim only after Vaya made a really good point about the brokenness of a cop + doc/watcher combo, when there was absolutely no pro-town reason not to say right off the bat that his results were both guilties.

I investigated Farside because if she did in fact get vigged, it would help me narrow down my sanity some more.

Unlikely. Your target doesn't need to die for you to callibrate your sanity when you've already got a guilty on a known town player. If you get an innocent, you're insane, and the person you investigated is scum. You don't need them to die to know this. Get a guilty, and you could be paranoid or insane, and if your target dies and flips town, you still won't know which one you are. If they flip scum, then yes, you'll know for sure that you're paranoid, but that's the only way it would be more useful than investigating someone that doesn't die. So, there's a small chance that you confirm yourself as a useless cop, at the expense of completely wasting an investigation if you're a useful one. That's just not optimal at all.

But that, I can see coming from a town Fate not thinking things through enough. The lying, not so much. I'm not ready to hammer right now, but unless Fate can give a much better reason for his lying than "trying to draw a NK", I'm having a hard time seeing how he can not be the lynch today.

[iamausername]

What can I say other than repeat myself. There

are

sometimes good reasons to lie as town. Scum might waste their RB on me, a sane cop is pretty powerful, if not attempt to NK me (since Wolf is likely dead tonight).

Scum always assume town will tell the truth. Sometimes a cop with useless investigations (i.e. a sane cop who has targeted dead people by chance) who claims Vanilla Townie will be completely ignored by scum RBs and NKs. Then he can come later with a guilty and nail the scum, hoping his

DAY PLAY

will be strong enough for people to believe the gambit.

That is what I'm banking on here. Even Iam's, most reasonable of them all, has nothing to say about my day play. Where in my posts have I been scummy? How is my involvement in each lynch scummy respectively?

But if farside is scum (and if you're town, she very probably is), then they'd know you were useless. They'd think you were naive instead of paranoid, but that really doesn't make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.

I guess I kind of see your point though. Two guilties would suggest either insane or paranoid, two innocents would suggest either sane or naive, but with the two innocents, scum might not even think about sanity issues (if farside is town), wheras with two guilties they'd know there were sanity issues going on, so they'd be more likely to take the chance on you being paranoid than taking the chance on you being naive.

And now that I think about it, a hider that only hides from NK's but not investigations is a little odd, she might be covering for Fate's fakeclaim here. Also, claiming to have hidden behind esu, one of the confirmed townies who was an obvious NK target for scum last night is pretty bad.

I think that Fate and farside as the remaining scum isn't unlikely.

This post from Vaya set off alarms. What if Farside's claim sets up

Vaya's

fakeclaim? The "oh the mod says it doesn't stop investigations" could be scrambling to avoid me knowing

for sure

that Farside was lying. Other than that, the whole Farside Vaya spat and Vaya having that "case" on Farside could just be setting up for bussing later on, and the eventual OSV vig claim in which Farside, of course, wouldn't die from.

Nah, the "oh it doesn't stop investigations" is just standard for a hider.

Farside voted Vaya immediately after N1. Is this consistent with tracking someone nowhere? Farside, why didn't you think that with 2 scum left, both would have actions of some sort? Especially with an "interesting" role like yours.

God we have to lynch one of them. Her claim is basically a mirror of Pwnman's! The first to and only one to claim D1! THEY THOUGHT UP THIS PLAN N1 I GUARANTEE IT, BASED OFF PWNMAN's CLAIM.

Vote: Vaya

This makes a lot of sense, but when farside is the one with the inconsistency in her claim, surely she's the one you should be voting.

Except that I was expecting to draw the NK, in which my sanity would be revealed.

I wouldn't have counted on this. Sometimes, mods will just reveal cops with sanity issues as "cop".

Factoring in Wolf's ability, one of you, Fate and Iam HAS to be scum.

Why are people

still

saying this?! Did we not establish repeatedly that WOLF'S ABILITY WAS COMPLETELY USELESS OUTSIDE OF LYLO!

---

Vote: farside

I'm buying Fate's explanation for lying a lot more than I'm buying her explanation for going after Vaya when she tracked him going nowhere. His reasons are all very wrong, but I believe that he believes them.

Now could all the Vaya voters tell me how it makes sense to vote for him over farside?

[iamausername]

Ok guys about the best way I can describe my hammer condition is if scum is on a wagon AND/

OR if town is not

, I can't hammer. That is really the jist of it. Also it is not a one time thing. Do people still want me to claim or hold off? I won't be at this point until i get home from work just fyi.

See bolded. It means that IF THERE IS TOWN NOT ON THE WAGON, WOLF CANNOT HAMMER.

player (3) - TOWN1, TOWN2, TOWN3

not voting (4) - TOWN4, TOWN5, SCUM1, SCUM2

wolf still can't hammer this wagon, even though there is no scum on it, because TOWN4 and TOWN5 are not on it.

Now please don't make me explain this again.

---

As for farside > Vaya, I just entirely disagree that Vaya's day play has been scummier. I don't see that at all. I do agree that Vaya claiming ahead of time that he intended to shoot farside was a really bad way to play the vig role, but besides that, I've found him to be pretty pro-town throughout. Which ranks him pretty much on a par with Fate, who I have also found to be pretty pro-town throughout, besides some poor choices with how to play the role he claims to have.

Also, this:

You know, given the flavour of Seven's death strongly indicating a vampire was responsible, and the fact that their claims don't really fit together (if Azhrei has some sort of immunity due to his vampiric nature, why doesn't farside?), and the fact that NK-immunity seems like a pretty likely scum ability in a game with an SK and a vig, I'd bet there's a scum between the two of them.

I don't think Azhrei is scum.

[iamausername]

Because Fate is obviously paranoid, not insane. It makes more sense flavour-wise, because Kate was paranoid in the actual show, not insane, and it makes more sense game-wise, because if Fate is town, then you pretty much have to be scum by process of elimination.

[iamausername]

Here is my case:

Azhrei
esuriospiritus
farside22
Fate
iamausername
Vaya
wolframnhart

esurio is confirmed by bv.
I know I'm town.
wolf is pretty much confirmed with all the shenanigans with his hammering ability.

That leaves:

Azhrei
farside22
Fate
Vaya

Three of those players, I have a town read on, for reasons that I'm pretty sure I have explained at some point. The other one is farside.

I could live with a Vaya lynch today, because obviously at least one of those town reads is wrong, and he makes the most sense as farside's partner, but I'd really rather lynch her.

[iamausername]

@Iam: Come on, help us.

Sure, just had a busy weekend.

Vote: farside

Don't think you really need any more help than that, but let me know if I'm wrong.

[iamausername]

Please someone point something pro-town in this post

I voted for scum.

[iamausername]

lol

Unvote, Vote: Fate

[iamausername]

That was a nice scumday present, Azh. Thanks!