Mini 904 - Narnia: LWW Mafia (Game Over)

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/confirm

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VOTE:Wolf

"waaah"

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L-3 is miles from a lynch, L-1 is close. and a quick bandwagon is the most useful way to get out of RVS, at least in the games i'm in.

Yeah, I don't agree that a quick wagon is the best way to get out of RVS, but it is a way that works. You can generally get a look from how some people vote (wagon or not) and their reasoning as well.

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Unvote; Vote:manho

You could at least respond to my comment. (Of which, Sib, you will notice is not a restatement of thought, still related to the game, and yet original!)

@PZ: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10078 - Lynch achieved on page 1.

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@PZ: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10078 - Lynch achieved on page 1.

y halo thar newbie game from over a year ago.

You said it never happens, I provide evidence that says otherwise.

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No, I'm not agreeing that a quickwagon is a good way to get out of RVS. It's a terrible way. Not good, and certainly not the best. (See example linked to PZ.)

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and in how many non-newbie games can you find 1 game that a day 1 quick lynch happen (except for some games with strange mechanic).

Stop strawmanning and answer the (implied) question. That said, I'm quite confident you're scum now. So that's one down.

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RBT: What was your question? I am having trouble discerning it.

In essence, what makes a quickwagon a good way to get out of RVS?

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The question is to manho, but kiku asked that question.

Also, this can be a possible exception to the rule (like you never have a lynch on page 2, which I've clearly presented data against).

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Not voting means you don't think anyone is scummy. At least one person must be scummier than the rest to everyone. Not sharing that information with the town is, well, scummy.

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@Dybeck: The correlation between you an PZ is similar to myself and Tar, except we don't necessairly have a particular "lead/follow" example. I do agree that it is something that should be watched, but it's not to the extreme yet where I feel it's completely scummy yet.

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I'm honestly more convinced that the case against Starbuck is rather condemning. I'd move my vote if it would speed up the claim process, but I like where it is now as well.

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I'm in agreement that Star should claim.

Unvote; Vote:Starbuck

I still like my manho vote, but I have to agree that this game won't go anywhere until at minimum Star claims.

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The majority of the game has been based on something between an overreaction and a word twisting on Star's unvote to stop a possible quicklynch. I agree the wagon got a lot of steam, but it was still somewhat RVS, and I didn't really think one would happen.

Why was I voting manho? I asked him why a quickwagon was a good way to get out of the RVS, as I completely disagree. His reply was that I did agree with him, and it took about three posts to actually get the answer I wanted about why they are actually good (of which I still have no possibility of agreeing with, as the argument was weak at best). I will also note the general overreaction to a singular vote. Look at ISO 6 for my biggest problem.

As for right now, I think Star needs to name claim so we can move on with today.

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BTW Bv310 is not the scum you're looking for.

I really can't say I'm seeing it so well myself right now either. Manho's defense of Star is noted as well, mostly for being a chainsaw.

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the case on starbuck is bad, and dybeck is the scum behind it. but as kiku said, we need starbuck's flip to get more information, like starbuck flipping town makes dybeck more scum, but starbuck flipping scum makes dybeck more town.

Talk is cheap, Manho.

Either bus your scumbuddy or stop trying to improve your townie credentials by repeatedly saying things that you don't intend to follow up with a vote.

Glad you see things my way.

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@wolf, i don't see the reason behind starbuck's wagon strong enought, and think that was a scum-pushed wagon, so my initial suspicious go to dybeck. but then find that the starbuck lynch is very informative, and starbuck is still neutral in my scum list, so decide to lynch her. i didn't say we need starbuck lynch quickly, and i'm still waiting for a case from her before her lynch.

So, just waiting for the bus to show before you throw?

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If we're not lynching Star, then I'm gonna have to say we need a claim from manho really soon too.

Unvote; Vote:Manho

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I'm going to hammer in the morning. I can't argue a Susan claim, but I certainly don't think a counter is appropriate right now.

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Unvote; Vote:Starbuck

If you are town, your notes will be kept in mind tomorrow.

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More importantly, you are all forgetting that we only have one NK visible. BV "killed himself" last night (lover part of the role).

Starbuck being town was unfortunately not a surprise to me, I figured it would be an informational lynch at worst at that point. I hammered to avoid a NL, because some mods are picky about that.

I'm likely to think that manho is telling the truth, despite being rather scummy. That said, I'd like a CC ASAP if he's lying.

For now,

VOTE:Kiku

, because I think Star was probably going down the right track at the point of who was scum.

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@Mac: "Unless they picked up the mason crumb" makes it sound like it was rather unapparent that dybeck had pretty clearly said "Mason partner here". Why did kiku shed doubt on the rather easy read of that?

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I'm not going to push the issue.

manho: Were you roleblocked?

How goes that rolefishin' there?

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Opportunistic hammer? Hammering with hours before the deadline is anything BUT opportunistic. Also, I'm liking what I see from Kiku a bit more now than yesterday.

Unvote; FoS:Kiku

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I approve of Kiku's questioning on Snail. I would vote, but it's too premature to push for a claim/risk a quickhammer.

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@manho: I disagree on PZ being scum, but I'm sure that the Kiku/Snail argument has at least one scum involved. I could also see it as a possible bus.

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VOTE:EvilSnail

I like the thought of keeping this pressure up. It's yielding good results.

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VOTE:EvilSnail

I like the thought of keeping this pressure up. It's yielding good results.

Like what?

Like giving me a better view on which one of you two (Snail/Kiku) is scum.

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Unvote

I see no reason to leave it on an un-CC'd obvPR.

Going to need a reread before I put a vote on again.

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Not a fan of MC, but it's clearly not going to stop now.

Professor Kirke here.

I'll pick Huck to claim next.

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To expedite, if you haven't claimed and you post again, it should be there.

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1)

VOTE:Wolf

least likely to exist from claims seen thus far.

2) PZ is indeed Lucy

3) I know that because I'm a rolecop.

4) Now that my role is in the open, I'll say I'm debating between Huck/Narn/Gawyn for my targets tonight.

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General flavor of my role is that having been to Narnia before myself, I would be able to learn/remember things about the populace.

I do get both name/role. However, I did not reveal the role of PZ because I did not originally think that it would be needed. You can also note the fact that I had clearly stated that PZ was town earlier today, breadcrumbing the fact I was both a cop, and had investigated him.

That said, do you want me to claim all I have for PZ? (It would be best if PZ answered first).

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I think Wolf should be the lynch today. His claim seems to be the weakest. Tonight's investigation should help some too.

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Well, I targeted Evil last night, got no result.

Either I got RB'd, or Snail's some kind of investigation-immune role.

How about any results from you manho?

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I'm leaning towards massclaim ASAP. This is probably LyLo, and we should extract all the info we can from the possible fake-claims.

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Already claimed Rolecop.

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I'm not really convinced by HH's claim.

Which part do you doubt?

Well, the role is an obscure one and the character is a minor one at best.

I agree, although Rumblebuffin was highly minor as well.

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PZ-Doc
HackerHuck-Commuter
Evilsnail-Self Riviver
RBT-Rolecop
Pwnman-VT
Narnian-VT
Manho-Watcher?

PZ is doc, as reflected above.

Manho needs to confirm this claim.

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I'm already outed so there's no point lurking anymore.

Honestly, surprised the scum would have let you live being that Lucy has a fairly strong flavor standing for doc.

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I'm leaning towards HH or Narnian for today's lynch. Pwnman's lurking isn't reflecting well in my mind either. Since I highly doubt Aslan would be a fake-claim, I'm expecting these to be our scum. That said, I'll probably be flinging my investigation on one of these three tonight.

Also, me dying last night would have made PZ confirmed town, so it's not completely in his worst interest.

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Town

PZ
RBT
manho
snail

Scum

Narninian
Huckster
pwnman


There's the game. Let's just do this and go home with a W.

Looks like it. Which one first is the bigger concern. Leaning Narn right now, but I can see cases for all three going first.

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Yeah, snail's point sells it to me.

VOTE:Narninian

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1) Snail is Aslan
2) I see no reason to discredit manho right now
3) By merit of 1 and 2, Kairyuu and HH are the remaining scum.

VOTE:Kairyuu

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Well, I investigated manho last night. Obviously that didn't work out so well, but between him or HH, I think it had the best logic behind it.

That said, I know I'm town, and I know Snail's town, thus HH is our last scum.

VOTE:Huck

If you want a more detailed case, I will produce one, but my knowledge says this is the right choice.

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I picked manho because I actually thought you might be the NK because you were confirmed through me. The reason I picked manho over Huck is because manho had a confirmable claim, and would be easier to target someone who had no claimed possible protection, in comparison to targeting Huck, who says he does, and wasting my investigation. I figured the best way to confirm scum teams would be to rule out as many candidates as possible.

An actual case:

Note that the only two people that he has ever voted for (despite saying other lynches were good, including both dead scum) are still alive now.

I also noticed a gem when rereading over HH in iso.

Based on my earlier suspicions and the roles revealed so far, I'd rather lynch Evilsnail than Narninian. I'm not getting much of a scum read from his posts (in iso) and he has been somewhat consistent about the other Pevensies being town. One thing I noticed is that his flavor - as he explained it - indicates that I would be similarly aligned with his siblings.

Narnian had basically claimed scum with a slip. Piggybacking onto the fact he had claimed that he hadn't been given items made it a very easy latch for a scum to cling onto to confirm themselves as town.

His first, and only post thus far today, was to ask for my investigation. Clearly this is a loaded question with the intent to find some way to make it a slip or some fashion of scummy. He shouldn't have to ask for it, as it should obviously come out in my first post anyway, knowing this is LyLo.

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1) Yes
2) I mean the fact that you tried to tie yourself to being town when narn claimed that the other Pevensies were town and had PRs for having items.

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Besides, your investigation makes no sense. Why would you have picked Manho to investigate instead of me? I've been under suspicion by both Manho and Evilsnail, so it only makes sense to either clear me or convict me.

It makes more sense than targeting someone who has claimed a role that I may not be able to target last night? Easier to say "I confirmed these two, let's finish this". I confirmed Snail yesterday, and I would have confirmed manho today, had Snail been the NK. In claiming a level of being untargetable, I clearly would have preferred to target the person who didn't have such a claim. You could claim commuter, yet be some kind of untargetable role. I think it was obvious to target the person who would not be able to be hidden from an investigation.

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1)Not to mention, had you investigate me and had I actually used my ability last night, the fact that you got no result would essentially confirm me. Tell me whether it's likely that the scum would have two role-blocking abilities...

2)You had to pick Manho as your choice, because you didn't want to confirm me and you had already confirmed Evilsnail. Manho was pretty well cleared at that point too, because he outed one of his scum partners when we were at LYLO.

1) Godfather, untargetable, miller, plenty of things that can interfere with an investigative role
2) Manho could have been doing some serious busing. Having confirmed town going into LyLo is always a plus. Knowing for certain that he was town was clearly the best choice for me if Snail had died.

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As scum, we knew the town had to have several PRs (we did know all the Pev's were because of our Edmund claim), and expected Aslan as well. Finding out that Dybeck/Bv were mason/lovers really played to our benefit as we were able to push through a bit more with the extra townie down. I figured come D3 I would have been able to find an easy way to push for a mislynch, but Narn slipped up a bit, but gave me some extra wiggle room for the next day. Manho's watching was the right target, and I can't say I was surprised. I was worried when I knew I was going to be alone in LyLo, but had the extra comfort of knowing what every role left in the game was.

I knew Aslan was going to be a terrible NK, because he came back to life in the book, and never really died. Although my original idea was that he would be BP, a Reviver-style role would make sense as well. By finding out he was a reviver, I was able to confirm my rolecop ability, and confirming townies to my benefit. We definitely went after the most aggressive townies first, and I think kept fairly decent distancing through the entire game. If I was ever questioned into "why weren't you NK'd?" I was intending to give the general WIFOM defense in addition to Huck's perpetual tunnel on me to get me lynched. While I commend you for sticking to your guns, I think that it was the doubt on my role throughout the entire game that led to your eventual lynch with little extra effort from me. My ultimate backup, in the chance you decided to play some kind of card was tag my role onto you, but I honestly felt that I had a better chance of being able to say that I wanted to confirm manho instead. Auto-claiming you as scum would have probably led to more doubt, since I had been trying to investigate from the shadows through the game.

My biggest concern through watching the game unfold was that it would be too hard to push HH's wagon first, because it would sound too much like the mislynch of the available targets that were wagonable. I felt my claim was definitely on the weaker side, and being able to survive without the intense questioning I had been expecting made it much easier to blend in. I was hoping Kai's attempt at a counter wagon would have some merit and persuade a townie to vote manho, but I honestly thought it was way too far out of reach because we had already basically confirmed a Susan PR. Also, as PZ said in the dead QT, I definitely earned some town points for claiming I knew PZ's role without killing him off quickly (although we also knew we were getting a free kill N2 with a global RB, thus it would have made more sense to kill someone that was going to be a known problem).

Another issue that I personally had was with all the replacing of my buddies, I quickly forgot who my team actually was. I think that may have influenced my gameplay a bit, because I no longer viewed my team as my team. Kai replacing in was a very hard bus to drive, but the inevitable watching from manho gave me little choice. I didn't want to win this one lone wolf, but a guilty is a guilty.

Town fought through to the end, and I definitely enjoyed this game a lot. Good work to my scumbuddies, we earned this one together. Thanks to Kdub for running this one as well.