Mini 902: Pick your Poison 4 (Game over!)

[scotmany12]

My suggestions, at first glance, are rolecop and godfather.

[scotmany12]

If I was mafia I would have given the town doc, masonizer, and vig.

And after a little bit of thought, I have changed from role cop to vengeful. Roleblocker is the worst and we should definitely not give the mafia that.

[scotmany12]

If I was mafia I would have given the town doc, masonizer, and vig.

And after a little bit of thought, I have changed from role cop to vengeful. Roleblocker is the worst and we should definitely not give the mafia that.

why is roleblocker the worst?

and what made you reevaluate your role cop choice?

Roleblocker is clearly the worst. Two chances to disrupt our nice actions. Argument could be made that janitor is the worst too. Obviously I don't think we should give the mafia either of those.

And that should be role cop and vengeful. Dont want godfather as it generates doubt with town night actions.

Also, weak doc is a very powerful role people. Hopefully we have one. It acts as both a doctor and a weak investigative role if played right. All we have to do is hypothetically say who we would protect if we were the weak doc before the end of the day.

[scotmany12]

The only reason I think we might want to give them the vengeful is because if we have a vig, we might be able to kill it at night, and of course if it is the last mafia to go down then no kill is given.

[scotmany12]

I really dont want a roleblocker, due to how effectively it could be used with the rolecop.

[scotmany12]

Um.. the janitor could hide the death of a mafia member as well.

[scotmany12]

I think I have come to terms with rolecop and godfather. Rolecop is the least powerful, and I understand why others do not want to give the mafia the vengeful. Don't want roleblocker cause it can be very powerful when used with the rolecop. Janitor is an obvious no.

[scotmany12]

Im currently wondering if the janitor role is really that bad? Im not seeing it as that big a deal.

You can gain a lot of information from lynches chaz. Information that everyone in the town can use. If the janitor uses its power, we dont know the result. We don't know if its a powerrole, or scum, or just a plain townie. There are a lot of bad possibilities that can happen with the janitor role.

[scotmany12]

Vote: Rolecop

Don't really want to hammer godfather just yet. Have to give it some more thought.

[scotmany12]

You act as if the rolecop is powerful. It is only powerful when put together with the roleblocker. All the other roles have a far greater risk to them.

[scotmany12]

And I don't understand how a rolecop is any more dangerous than the other roles in regards to reaching that endgame scenario.

[scotmany12]

Surely scum are more likely to kill a power role they find during the day rather than block them.

Unless they gave us the weak doc. In which case they can do a lot of combinations with the cop and roleblocker.

[scotmany12]

So lets see if I get things right:

The janitor is a no. The vengeful is also a no. A lylo scenario is more than likely with 3 scum in the setup, and we dont want to give the scum the possibility to jesterize to win the game.

Basically our only combinations are gf-rolecop, gf-roleblockler and rolecop-roleblocker.

I have something that is constantly bugging my mind. We keep saying that the roleblocker is a bad idea because it prevents power roles for functioning. We also say that the rolecop is also a bad idea because mafia can find power roles.

Wouldnt a godfather in the setup effectively make our power roles not reliable?

Please correct me if Im wrong.

Yes it would. But rolecop-roleblocker is a horrible combination, and probably one of the worst, if not the worst, combinations we can give the mafia. So since we have pretty much decided against janitor and vengeful, we have to give them the godfather.

[scotmany12]

Janitor messes with the town more than the godfather does chaz. It can literally screw up our scumhunting and cause a ton of wifom. Yes godfather makes our roles unreliable (Kinda, if we have a weak doc that dies at night along with someone else, we'll still be able to lynch scum) but janitor screws with out scumhunting.

[scotmany12]

So, an OMGUS vote, and an unexplained FoS.

I'm pretty confident one of these two is scum.

Really now? You are pretty confident this early into the game? And off of an unexplained vote, when chamber never gives reasoning if i recall correctly, and an FoS?

[scotmany12]

Have you all seriously considered the fact that Chamber, only quoting my post, then voted me and hasn't given a lick of reason for that vote? He refused to answer questions yesterday that would have helped the town. And not explaining his vote (besides the clear OMGUS of it, as it was

THE NEXT

post after mine) makes me scum? I really don't understand this.

First off, chamber doesn't like reasoning. I haven't played with him a lot but I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a lot of reasoning. Also, no one ever called you scum, just that your post was scummy. People think you are scummy because you are confident that one of chamber and farside is scum off of literally NOTHING.

[scotmany12]

I don't think we need to tell people who we would cop or mason chaz. Mason doesn't die if he/she tries to recruit scum. I do agree we all need to say who we would hypothetically protect as the weak doc though. Of course now two people should protect the same person.

[scotmany12]

EBWOP: Of course no two people should protect the same person.

[scotmany12]

Wait...what? Someone claimed scum? Am I missing something?

[scotmany12]

EBWOP: Of course no two people should protect the same person.

What is the reasoning for this?

No clue really. I think I might have been getting the weak doc mixed up with something else. Actually now that I think of it, and after rereading pyp2 a little bit, we should definitely repeat choices, so that if the weak doc ends up protecting a kill the scum do not automatically no his/her identity. We should have like groups of 2 or 3 people that protect the same person.

[scotmany12]

If I thought RBT was scum I would be voting for him. Me questioning him and criticizing his decisions and explaining why people are voting for him does not mean i think he is scum.

I haven't had a lot of time lately. When I look back a little bit, I'm wary of both wagons, and particularly do not like leech's vote on cooldog.

Vote: CoolDog

I really don't like his plays in this game, so far. He's being far too overly defensive. A few choices of words have really stuck out to me as well.

"If you think I'm scum, vote for me" is a good example. More often than not, when I see something like that being said, it's usually said by scum.

First off, I hate the "he's being overly defensive" attack. It's horrible. And the bolded part bugs me due to this only being Leech's third game on the site. How often have you seen people saying that? His whole reasoning feels very contrived and is horrible, and this post reeks of opportunism.

Vote: Leech

Ortolan is bugging me a little bit too but that's mostly just gut.

[scotmany12]

We caught scum using the weak doc hypoclaim in pyp 2. Weak doc is not a protective role, it's an investigative role. We're hypoclaiming. And no one is confirmed due to being protected due to the godfather. What we need to figure out is how we are going to be hypoclaiming, if we are all going to choose a different target or have some of us repeat targets.

If I thought RBT was scum I would be voting for him. Me questioning him and criticizing his decisions and explaining why people are voting for him does not mean i think he is scum.

What do you think of the cases people are posting against him? Do you agree with them, disagree, not sure?

I understand their cases against him. I don't agree with them because I don't think he is scum at the moment.

[scotmany12]

Hypoclaiming cop is pointless due to sanity issues and godfather. Weak doctor is an investigative role more than it is a protective role. There is no point in not hypoclaiming it.

[scotmany12]

Except it doesn't work in clearing innocents because of the godfather. And if we don't hypoclaim and the weak doctor is night killed or protects the scum before releasing any information, we lose all of that forever. Not hypoclaiming will hurt us if we have a weak doc.

[scotmany12]

scot post 199: Who do you think is scum?

So you missed my post where I voted leech for his horrible vote on Cooldog and then voted for him, which also said im suspicious of ortolan?

scot post 16: How is RB worse the GF in regards to messing with roles?
scot post 21: You realize the only way vengeful works is if we do have a vig in the game.

I very much expect the scum to have given us the vig as its a double edge sword so to speak. And I hate scum roleblockers from a town perspective.

scotmay post 82: Not sure why you had to give it more thought as you stated earlier you were coming to terms with it. Care to explain?

Coming to terms with it does not mean I came to terms with it. I'm still not that happy with the godfather due to how it affects whatever investigative roles we might have.

I should be saying the same thing to scot on this and I don't get why people defend others using meta.

If chamber's play is that he doesn't give reasoning, regardless of his role, then its a null tell when he does it. Meta's are very valuable. Some people do the same things as scum and town, some people play both extremely different, etc.

[scotmany12]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It's his playstyle. I don't like it, but it isn't scummy for him to do it.

[scotmany12]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It's his playstyle. I don't like it, but it isn't scummy for him to do it.

I'm asking if he is this way all the time isn't it a null tell then? Why are you excusing it if it is a null tell?

You are literally making no sense right now.

[scotmany12]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It's his playstyle. I don't like it, but it isn't scummy for him to do it.

I'm asking if he is this way all the time isn't it a null tell then? Why are you excusing it if it is a null tell?

You are literally making no sense right now.

how am I not making sense?
You say it's his play style. I take that to mean no matter his allignment he plays the same way so isn't that a null tell?

Yes, that's what I have been saying.

[scotmany12]

Is farside really trying to argue semantics right now?

[scotmany12]

Is farside really trying to argue semantics right now?

Not really it was just more of a question in regards to your actions and interaction with chamber.
things to point out, things I notice. Interactions that seem strange to me.
Is there a reason not to point out strange interactions between players?

How exactly is what I did a strange interaction? I just pointed out that this is how chamber plays.

[scotmany12]

Hmm, I was prodded. RBT should not claim. Considering he is at l-2. Rereading tomorrow.

[scotmany12]

So i've been getting bad headaches lately, and reading a lot for school, so I never got around to rereading. My apologies.

[scotmany12]

Doing something in this game tomorrow. I promise.

[scotmany12]

Unvote, Vote: Anon

I hate his demanding for scumlists. Hate it. It's not scumhunting and it's pretending to contribute when it's not.

Leech, farside is town so dont even go there. Why dont you like the RBT wagon?

And I get an extremely scummy vibe from this. Not only does it imply that he has prior knowledge of who is town and not, but I agree with Leech. He's telling leech to not even look at farside.

Anon has focused on three players. Me, RBT, and Cooldog. He ignores everyone else except for a few occasions where he breaks off to agree with Yos. He asks me, RBT, and Cooldog for scumlists (I'm not giving one, I have never done it before and don't plan on starting now) but not from Ortolan, Chaz, Leech (people he wanted to see post more), Chamber, and so on.

[scotmany12]

Scot:
Coming to terms with it does not mean I came to terms with it. I'm still not that happy with the godfather due to how it affects whatever investigative roles we might have.

What do you think would have been best then?

Oh, RC/GF is the best combination. But at the time I was still mulling over other options instead of the godfather.

[scotmany12]

For some reason I missed post 299.

I hate his demanding for scumlists. Hate it. It's not scumhunting and it's pretending to contribute when it's not.

Asking for scumlists its not a scumtell.

Scumlists are a VERY powerful tool of information of people your gut doesn't like. So yeah, it IS scumhunting.

And I get an extremely scummy vibe from this. Not only does it imply that he has prior knowledge of who is town and not, but I agree with Leech. He's telling leech to not even look at farside.

I think she is town and there has been some reasons that explain this feeling. Tell me why you disagree with them.

Wonder why scotmany is not attacking yos for basically doing the same thing.

Anon has focused on three players.

Also why would I ask a scumlist of people I dont suspect?

If you are so inclined for scumlists, why wouldn't you ask everyone for one?

Also, there is a distinct difference between someone saying "I think so and so is town," and "So is so is town, don't look at her."

Yeah, Anon is scum.

We are hypoclaiming. The only person who is opposed to it is Yos, which I do not get seeing as how he was in pyp2 and seeing that we caught scum hypoclaiming weakdoc in that.

[scotmany12]

Scot: Would you vote for me? If so why/why not?

I don't particularly think you are scum, so no.

[scotmany12]

I'm getting a town vibe from RBT, I'll give more reasoning either after work or tomorrow. And i'm not giving a scumlist. I never do them. I'm not going to start all of a sudden to please you. I really don't care if you look at me if RBT is scum.

[scotmany12]

Also, I never said scumlists are bad. I attacked Anon for asking for scumlists.

[scotmany12]

If you think I based my who case on Anon asking for scumlists, then um you're wrong. Also, I never contradicted myself.

[scotmany12]

As for RBT, I believe he was actually trying to help with the chart. And its not something that I can quote. It is just overall, due to scum being able to daytalk, I expect them to be more careful. Plus, I believe RBT is being sincere with all his posts and he actually believes that what he is saying is correct.

[scotmany12]

If you think I based my who case on Anon asking for scumlists, then um you're wrong. Also, I never contradicted myself.

and your case is? Annon asked for scum list , vote annon . Answer to the almighty power of the quotes, or quote tags, if you will .

Nice to see that you are actually reading the thread. Go back and read where I voted for Anon. I attacked him for tunneling, ignoring other players, implying that he knew farside's alignments. Him asking for scumlists was only part of it.

[scotmany12]

There is a difference between saying "I think RBT is town and am getting town vibes from him" and "Farside is town, don't even look at her." Huge difference. And I already explained why you asking for scumlists is scummy. First off, it's day one. You aren't going to get anything from scumlists. And you're pretending to contribute instead of actually contributing.

I've looked at every other player. I'm not tunneling on you. Yos bugs me cause he doesn't want to hypoclaim, I hated farside's little interaction with me. I attacked leech before, and said that i had a guttell on ortolan.

And once again, you don't hypoclaim in your post. Everyone who refuses to do so is scummy.

Also, the first part of your post is a huge appeal to emotion.

[scotmany12]

]Let's make this a worst case scenario to show you how bad it can be. There's three scum in this game and 9 town players. If we all hypoclaim that could make it so 3 players on the town's side hypoclaim protecting scum. If none of those three players die, then it cuts down on who could be the weak doc by 1/3'rd. Meaning, now instead of them having to locate the weak doc out of 9, they have a 1/6 chance of nailing that role. It can easily narrow down, for the scum, who the weak doc actually is.

Sure, the hypoclaiming may have worked in the past, but it's no guarantee it will work in this game. I'm completely opposed to the idea for that very reason.

Scot, do you find that to be scummy logic? If so, why?

If the scum find the weak doc (If we have one) with hypoclaiming, then they find them. But at least we will have at least some people who can be confirmed innocent if we get rid of the gf. I think people are viewing the weak doc too much as a protective role. It's not. It's an investigative role. And if we have one we need to use it in the best way to catch scum. And that involves hypoclaiming. People need to understand that we gain nothing by not hypoclaiming. Cause if the weakdoc dies then, we don't have any of the results to work off of.

[scotmany12]

Prodded.

Game is dying, we need that fresh replacement and some scumlists.

Cooldog and scotmany, please scumlists in following posts.

Still happy with my Riceballtail vote.

Leech, farside is town so dont even go there

. Why dont you like the RBT wagon?

Right there yos.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#2081127

And I'm going to remind everyone that we ended up lynching a cop day one in PYP2. So no, the claim is not and obvious fake claim. It might be, but it's not obvious.

[scotmany12]

EBWOP.

Why does me having a town read on farside means Im scum, scotmany and Leech?

You don't get it. You said:

Leech, farside is town so dont even go there.

It's telling people to not even look at farside. And it implies you know her alignment.

VOTE:Anon

CLAIM OR DIE!!!!1111

Clearly a good lynch for today.

(Also, I'm the cop.)

Obvious Fakeclaim.

We can lynch RBT now.

And now you are advocating a quicklynch of a claimed cop.

[scotmany12]

@Scot: You are the one who doesnt get it.

Townhunting is pretty much as valuable as scumhunting. If I have a town read on a player then yes, I dont have any problems in suggesting/demmanding people to not waste time there.

Based on your same logic, you ARE also scum for having a town read on RBT, implying that YOU also know he is town.

Wow. I never said RBT is town. I said I believe him to be town. You came right out and said, "Farside is town." There is a distinct fucking difference. Stop playing dumb.

Anyways, what do I win with calling farside town? What is my scum motivation for doing so? Why isnt Yosarian also scummy for this?

Yos never said "Farside is town." And don't think I didn't miss the wifom in this post.

Also, yeah, good job on believing someone that claimed cop with less than 24 hours to deadline, let the wagon grew without pretty much any basic defense, claimed in parenthesis and voted a player he hadnt even suspected before.

If thats not a fakeclaim trying to draw the real cop, then I dont know what it is.

And stop fucking putting words into my mouth. I never said I believe his claim. I didn't jump to conclusions like you and chaz are doing. And the bolded is such a stupid thing to say. I can't decided if it's scummy or if you just weren't thinking.

[scotmany12]

Leech. Any comment on what I said about the weakdoc hypoclaim?

Yos. Any comment on where I showed you that Anon directly said "Farside is town" and told leach to not look at her?

[scotmany12]

Leech. Any comment on what I said about the weakdoc hypoclaim?

Yos. Any comment on where I showed you that Anon directly said "Farside is town" and told leach to not look at her?

Well, thanks for answering my question; I didn't find that in my readthrough of Anon for some reason.

I still don't agree that it's a scumtell, mostly because I think most of Anon's posts where he explains his pro-town vibe about farside make sense.

For the most part, though, I'm more worried about this cop claim and what to do about it. We have to lynch someone, we need a real majority on someone, and we have very little time. What do you think, Scot? How likely do you think it is RBT is telling the truth? If you had a choice between lynching him and seeing a no-lynch happen, what would you do?

Deadline is 5 pm est tomorrow right? I'll let you know what I think of his claim before then, probably around 1-2ish. I still don't know what I think of it at this moment. Yes, the timing sucks, but the skitzer lynch in pyp2 is in the back of my head, and I've gotten a town vibe from RBT so far. Normally I'm against no lynches, but I don't know this time.

[scotmany12]

If i'm weakdoc, i'll be protecting ortolan.

[scotmany12]

We shouldn't look to much into the table of hypoclaims that RBT gave. Can we use it to catch scum? Possibly. It might very well be useful to catch the last scum once we have already lynched 2. However, there is just too many possibilities concerned with the table.

If there is a vig, they should claim if they did the following: Chose to kill yos or chose to kill ellibereth. If there is a vig and they did not do one of those, then a claim is not necessary. I am willing to lynch farside of there is no claim.

[scotmany12]

@Scot- Any vig should not claim. Zero reason to. What is the benefit of that considering this is a open setup? You also screamed not vig.....bleh.

Um, if there is a vig, and the vig killed yos/elliberth, then yes he should claim. First, it gives us a confirmed town basically. Second, I'll feel much more confident lynching farside knowing that Yos did die from protecting someone.

[scotmany12]

Um, if the vig killed elliberth then Yos's death doesn't give us any information either. Scum could have targeted him for the nightkill. If we have a vig, they should claim if they killed elliberth/yos.

[scotmany12]

And I'd much rather have a confirmed town and rely on lynching that allow a vig to kill at night, and risk him/her killing more town members. There is no protown reason to oppose a vig claim if the vig killed elliberth/yos.

FoS:

Leech, Sajin. All further discussion of of the claiming situation should stop. Vig, if there is one, claim if you killed elliberth/yos.

[scotmany12]

@Scot- Can you reply to this? I know I did not ask this one directly to you, but I am curious what your thoughts about it are:

Any PR in 3 man endgame makes LY/LO 50/50 or better because of the open nature of the game. Because of that fact, the benefits of having a claim now are absolutely nullified. Disagree?

If we play this right we won't get to endgame. And I want to truly know if yos died from protecting someone. And if the vig did kill elliberth/yos, and claims, then we avoid a possible myslynch.

[scotmany12]

Thus I am going to vote him now for that,

and for not going along with the hypo-claim.

What the hell are you talking about right here?

[scotmany12]

But seriously, I was one of the leading pushers for the hypodoc. I'm the first to bring it up. So I will ask you again cooldog, what the hell are you talking about?

[scotmany12]

There have been worse posts I suspect. He atleast justifies his vote. Meanwhile on other things:

Saying "He defended RBT," and then either flat out lying or posting false information is hardly justification. He couldn't even be bothered to determine if his reasoning is true.

[scotmany12]

I like this post. I do think that yos protected farside, yet I still want my vote on scot for now. If things start to role more on the farside wagon AND more eveidance is shown I will vote. As a matter of fact I would vote for anyone if they show scummyness.

So wait. You believe that Yos protected farside, which would almost certainly make farside scum, seeing as how we haven't had any vig claim yet. But you're keeping your vote on me? All because I defended RBT despite leech doing the same thing? That doesn't make sense at all.

Also to note IF I was scum note that I lynched my rb on d-1, not very good for my team. I don't know about you but I was on that wagon for a long time and didn't pull off.

Blatant wifom.

[scotmany12]

I like this post. I do think that yos protected farside, yet I still want my vote on scot for now. If things start to role more on the farside wagon AND more eveidance is shown I will vote. As a matter of fact I would vote for anyone if they show scummyness.

So wait. You believe that Yos protected farside, which would almost certainly make farside scum, seeing as how we haven't had any vig claim yet. But you're keeping your vote on me? All because I defended RBT despite leech doing the same thing? That doesn't make sense at all.

Also to note IF I was scum note that I lynched my rb on d-1, not very good for my team. I don't know about you but I was on that wagon for a long time and didn't pull off.

Blatant wifom.

yes you got it. You had alot of def on rbt. That is for sure. Between you and farside (for me) it would be a toss up who to protect. I lean farside a little more then you. However I am not yos, and you defed scum. I don't like it when people def scum. The point still stands that I would have lynched my RB on d-1 and I never pulled of the wagon.

Leech also defended scum. And he was opposed to the hypoclaim for quite a long time yesterday. Why aren't you going after him? I mean, if we both did the same scummy action, but he did another scummy action, then logically he would be the more scummy player at the moment, correct?

[scotmany12]

@scot, so you say that you are scummy yourself... Ever heard of the old saying:
"It an't quantity, its quality".True here. I think farside is prob scum. Might be the third man if there is one. However, you were more overtly for RBT not to be lynched. Also to note leech also has given content to the town, which errr... you an't...
Also to note farside has been lurking, or active lurking as of late, just to point out that I don't buy her "I wun't lurking I swear!" comment. Farside is raking up points, and I would be glad to vote her over scot if ether:

A: a bigger wagon starts to roll (with combo of one of the other two, this is not by itself a seller)
B: more info from here (scummy stuff)
C:A good case crops up nailing her on other things.

Don't put words in my mouth. Me using the word scummy was from your point of view. And of course there is three scum. It's an open setup. And yes, I have given content to the town. I was the first one pushing for the hypodoc. While I now think you are town because you don't know that there is two scum left, your case on me does not hold any water at all. Also, if you believe Yos protected farside, then why do you need a good case? That means she is scum. Period.

Has everyone checked in yet? I believe so. No vig claim, so

Vote: Farside

. That's lynch -1. You should probably claim if you are the last powerrole farside.

[scotmany12]

EBWOP: Forgot to post this too.

Leech also defended scum.

Would you mind showing me where, exactly, I defended RBT? I asked a few times why the wagon picked up so quickly and pointed out how I thought that someone took, what I thought to be, a statement written incorrectly out of context. I don't think I ever made a pro-town case for RBT, I didn't understand that bandwagon. When RBT claimed cop at the end, that's what really had me questioning RBT. That was the first scummy thing I saw.

I thought you were more vocal about it. My mistake.

[scotmany12]

I disgree Chaz. If farside is scum, Anon is at the top of the list, simply because of this:

Leech, farside is town so dont even go there.

[scotmany12]

Vote: Anon

Can't really talk now. Working on something for school. My reasoning for suspecting Anon should be obvious. Will explain later if anyone needs me to

[scotmany12]

Yeah, Anon is scum.

[scotmany12]

Remember that shady semantics fight, farside and scotmany had day 1? Why didnt farside vote scotmany? Why didnt scotmany vote farside?

Because that in itself did not warrant a vote from me.

Scot is agressive. Yes, his points against me are definitely agressive if not wrong.

How exactly does being aggressive make me scum?

So wait. You believe that Yos protected farside, which would almost certainly make farside scum, seeing as how we haven't had any vig claim yet. But you're keeping your vote on me? All because I defended RBT despite leech doing the same thing? That doesn't make sense at all.

Keep deflecting scumbag.

What the hell are you even saying? I was never trying to deflect the wagon yesterday onto cooldog. Cooldog was voting for me and I couldn't make any sense of it. Do you expect me to not defend myself?

See the utility of demanding scumlists from people you suspect?

Since everyone wants a scumlist so bad I'll do it (but I won't be happy about it):

CoolDoG: "Claim or die claim or die claim or die" sounds a lot like "I'm gonna push this lynch because it's so easy".
Anon: see CoolDog
Chamber: I have no idea what his thoughts are. While I have no meta research, I don't like this either way. Flipping town or scum, he's still scum.
Farside: I find the idea blowing up such a small point tends to be somewhat scummy. However, her meta also shows that she tends to blow up small points either way. Definitely fourth, but I could consider this later.

Reading only this, farside would definitely be a top suspect, just for the wishywashyness of that suspicion. Also pretty sure that RBT didnt put his TWO scumpartners in his scumlist. So yeah, cooldog and this guy anon are prob town.

Nice wifom. Its not a stretch for scum to do that, and I wouldn't be surprised at all of that was the scum's plan all along. Scum can daytalk, and it seems perfectly plausible that you and farside would tell RBT to put both of them on his scumlist.

Why am I scum for defending farside but why doesnt it make sense that people suspect you for defending riceballtail?

Did I ever say it didn't make sense? No, I did not. I fully expected to be pressured yesterday because I defended RBT. But there is a distinct difference between what I did and what you did. Yes I thought RBT was town. I said I didn't like his wagon. I never told someone to not look at RBT; I never said "RBT is town, don't even go there." Stop playing dumb and acting like this is the same thing.

[scotmany12]

I think you all are clever enough to realize that scum are less likely to fully defend a scumpartner, like I did. Scum are more likely to defend scumpartners scotmany style, almost sitting on the fence about his alignment.

Stop wifoming for godsakes. It makes you even more scummier. You're whole "lynch scotmany after i'm dead" is also a huge appeal to emotion, and scummy. I cannot see any reason why you would do any of your actions as town, but if on the small chances you are town, I'm not going to rush into a lynch against chaz or cooldog. Id look at the game and vote for who I think is most likely scum.

[scotmany12]

We both defended scum.

Ironically, you think I am scum for doing that.

But when people attack you for doing the same thing, magically it doesnt make sense:

So wait. You believe that Yos protected farside, which would almost certainly make farside scum, seeing as how we haven't had any vig claim yet. But you're keeping your vote on me? All because I defended RBT despite leech doing the same thing? That doesn't make sense at all.

I also dont know what you are trying to prove here. I basically said Im ok with my lynch.

What? You're entirely taking what I said out of context and putting words into my mouth. It didn't make sense for me when cooldog voted me over farside, because he believed yos to have protected farside. That's a lot more concrete evidence than me defending scum, which is why it didn't make sense to me.

[scotmany12]

Scotmany, do you think that you should be suspected for defending RBT day 1?

I fully expected to be suspected. I have already said this. I would suspect myself if I was anyone else in this.

Anon, do you think that you should be suspected for defending Farside day 1, and telling no one to even look at her?

[scotmany12]

I already said Im fine with my lynch.

Who would you suspect when I flip town?

Ortolan or bobers would be the first I look at.

[scotmany12]

I already said Im fine with my lynch.

Who would you suspect when I flip town?

Ortolan or bobers would be the first I look at.

What happened to cooldog?

I distinctly said yesterday I thought cooldog was town. Me defending myself from him doesn't mean i think he is town.

And just because Leech wouldn't be the first one I look at doesn't mean I wouldn't consider him.

[scotmany12]

And Leech only said he didnt understand the wagon on RBT. Plus, you are loads more scummy than anything Leech has ever done.

[scotmany12]

Dear Anon: If you are town, please learn how to play mafia. Thanks.

[scotmany12]

@scot, I know this is sorta old, but it has been bugging me all game. Why did you def RBT in d-1? I know this is really old, but I think this is one of your major scum tells.....

I have already said why. I though he was sincere with everything that he said. I got a town vibe from him. For example, with the table of roles. We now know that he was rolefishing, I believed at the time that he was just trying to help the town with that. I got a vibe from his posts that he actually believed what he was saying.

Im sick right now. Don't expect a lot from me currently.

[scotmany12]

Scott: Why was anon (who we now know as town) so firm that you were scum?

What are you asking here? Why I was so firm that he was scum or why he was so firm that I was scum? Well I can't answer the latter, but for the former everything he did screamed scum to me. His statement on farside, his pushing for scumlists instead of scumhunting, him constantly taking both mine and leech's cases out of context. And his whole defense yesterday was pretty much all wifom.

I think the scum is somewhere between you and Scott, actually. The more Scott posts, the more I'm uncomfortable with him. He tried pretty hard to get a Vig claim on day 2. I was pushing it if the Vig killed Yos, as that made sense. Scott was all for the Vig claiming if they killed either. Only one of those two would make sense, and that's a Yos vig kill. It really seemed like he wanted that last PR to out theirself. That alone isn't enough though, I could write that off considering I had a similar view just to a lesser extent. I can't put my finger on it, but he just seems off.

What? If there was a vig, and they killed elliberth, then scum could have killed yos with a nightkill. How does it not make sense for vig to claim in that situation? If that was the case, vig claiming could have possibly saved us from a mislynch.

[scotmany12]

What do you think, scotmany?

About what? The doc claim? I'm not against it. I'd much rather have two confirmed innocents rather than risking one of them getting killed tonight. If we do have the doc claim I do not advocate a no lynch.

I think Ortolan is pretty good as well, because his vote on scott makes real sense

Wait, what? How does a vote accompanied with no reason make "real sense?"

Scott why have you not responded to ortolan's accusation on you?

What accusations are you talking about? All he did was vote for me. That's it. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see anywhere where he explains his vote and accuses me of anything. I don't really respond to votes that are accompanied with no reasoning.

[scotmany12]

Sorry by saying accusation I meant vote scott, i mostly play f2f games and we call it an accusation then.

It made sense, because it fitted in with what I was thinking at the time. You did really go at anon there, yesterday. More so than anyone else arguably.

What's your point? Yes, I was going after anon very aggressively. He was scummy as hell. I thought he was scum. I am aggressive against those I am positive are scum.

And I still don't see how his vote makes sense to you, since you know, you have no idea what Ortolan was thinking.

[scotmany12]

It made sense, because it fitted with what I was thinking. By this I mean, that it showed me that somebody else was having a similar thought process to me, from a similar point of view. I do not need Ortolans reasons for thinking you scummy. I did not say that Ortolan's vote on you, made you scummy, I said it made him safer to me.

Except you dont know what ortolan is thinking. Why do you assume he is voting for me for the same reasons that you think I'm scummy?

[scotmany12]

I already said Im fine with my lynch.

Who would you suspect when I flip town?

Ortolan or bobers would be the first I look at.

What happened to cooldog?

I distinctly said yesterday I thought cooldog was town.

Me defending myself from him doesn't mean i think he is town.

And just because Leech wouldn't be the first one I look at doesn't mean I wouldn't consider him.

What do you think, scotmany?

About what? The doc claim? I'm not against it. I'd much rather have two confirmed innocents rather than risking one of them getting killed tonight. If we do have the doc claim I do not advocate a no lynch.

If you do some reading you would have answered all your questions boberz.
I want a docclaim.

[scotmany12]

I doubt we have a cop do to RBT claiming it day one. Doc seems most likely. I want a doc claim, giving us two innocents. I do not want to risk the doc dying again. If we have a doctor, no lynch is fairly pointless for reasons I will not explain.

[scotmany12]

Scot, what if scum did not submit a NK last night?

I highly doubt the last scum did that.

[scotmany12]

It is pointless to no lynch. It really is. Rather not explain why.

Still prefer a claim. At least it would conform one person.

[scotmany12]

confirm*

[scotmany12]

We aren't no lynching. It's pointless. If I have to explain to you guys I will but id prefer not to.

[scotmany12]

Scott do you mean no nolynch ever or in just this situation.

In this situation.

[scotmany12]

Why scott?

If you really want me to explain I will. But if I do explain we aren't no lynching. That's final.

[scotmany12]

You want to nolynch then fine. It's unlikely it's going to get us anywhere, and it's not that hard to figure out why. I'm not going to say anything else on the matter.

I do not support a cooldog lynch. If we decide to lynch I will support a boberz or ortolan lynch.

[scotmany12]

Ortolan doesn't provide reasoning for me yet im safe in chaz's eyes yet you don't have a problem with that boberz. You can't just say I cannot do something just because you think I might be scum but say its okay for someone else to do it because you think its town. Double standards don't work in mafia.

And I haven't voted yet because I haven't decided yet. I've been focusing on school and haven't even bothered trying to make a case. If I had to choose right now, it would be boberz over ortolan.

[scotmany12]

uvote, vote bob

I feel like playing like bob. I will not tell you why I am voteing him or give a good reason. I am just going to do it and say that it is good. Scot is playing pro-town as of late. bob-is-not.

Seriously scot, your going to let this pass by...

I ignore most of what cooldog says. I've come to accept pretty much every post of his is going to be scummy.

@scot, so you say that you are scummy yourself... Ever heard of the old saying:
"It an't quantity, its quality".True here. I think farside is prob scum.

Might be the third man if there is one.

However, you were more overtly for RBT not to be lynched. Also to note leech also has given content to the town, which errr... you an't...
Also to note farside has been lurking, or active lurking as of late, just to point out that I don't buy her "I wun't lurking I swear!" comment. Farside is raking up points, and I would be glad to vote her over scot if ether:/quote]
If it wasn't for the bolded part I would think that cooldog was scum, but

A. Scum (and everyone who is smart enough to look at the first post by patrick) knows there are three scum.
B. I do not hold cooldog in high enough regards to believe that he could be scum trying to do this on purpose.

[scotmany12]

I messed up

uvote, vote bob

I feel like playing like bob. I will not tell you why I am voteing him or give a good reason. I am just going to do it and say that it is good. Scot is playing pro-town as of late. bob-is-not.

Seriously scot, your going to let this pass by...

I ignore most of what cooldog says. I've come to accept pretty much every post of his is going to be scummy.

@scot, so you say that you are scummy yourself... Ever heard of the old saying:
"It an't quantity, its quality".True here. I think farside is prob scum.

Might be the third man if there is one.

However, you were more overtly for RBT not to be lynched. Also to note leech also has given content to the town, which errr... you an't...
Also to note farside has been lurking, or active lurking as of late, just to point out that I don't buy her "I wun't lurking I swear!" comment. Farside is raking up points, and I would be glad to vote her over scot if ether:

If it wasn't for the bolded part I would think that cooldog was scum, but

A. Scum (and everyone who is smart enough to look at the first post by patrick) knows there are three scum.
B. I do not hold cooldog in high enough regards to believe that he could be scum trying to do this on purpose.

[scotmany12]

Third post by patrick, not first

[scotmany12]

Ok so I say I am going to vote cooldog, and am strongly syspicious of scott (a position i have held for a long time) and I get an OMGUS from both of them.

Not an omgus. At least not from me.

[scotmany12]

Then notice you weak doctor hypo'ed me, not Anon (which makes no sense- why would you suddenly change your "prime" suspect).

Because I actually know how to play weakdoc. I would never protect someone I am sure is scum. I would protect someone who is mildly giving me off scum vibes so I could be sure about.

And I agree, we should lynch scum. That would be you ortolan. Because you have done absolutely nothing all game. You have posted the least out of everyone left.

You conveniently mentioned absolutely nothing during the farside lynch. You didn't say we should lynch her, you didn't say we shouldn't lynch her. You basically disappeared.

And then there was this by you when you boberz attacked you for lurking:

Ortolan: You made two posts in the whole of yesterday, one was a vote the other directly below it. You were not around much. Point stands.

That supposed to be a scumtell? For moi? Don't make me laugh. Actually I'm more likely to cry. I think there have actually been multiple games where someone has said something dumb like "ortolan contributed a lot day one and has since posted less, I don't think I can trust him". I always have to defend "posting frequency variation is not a scumtell" and it gets very frustrating after a while, especially considering I have been a chronic receiver of prods recently, not that I don't try to contribute when I have time or gain the motivation to do so.

Again it's dumb here because I was rather confident Anon was scum and we'd be straight on our way to 2010 scummies for a "perfect" game.

That is an incredibly scummy post. Self metas are horrible and full of wifom.

And then there is your whole vote on me, which just screams opportunism and hoping for a quick lynch.

Ortolan is the only one who looks even remotely scummy in my eyes.

Vote: Ortolan

[scotmany12]

You conveniently mentioned absolutely nothing during the farside lynch. You didn't say we should lynch her, you didn't say we shouldn't lynch her. You basically disappeared.

Um yer, as I said, you're full of it. I pretty emphatically stated we should lynch her as soon as the Yos-breadcrumbs were pointed out.

Nice that you just lied.

The scum know their claims are fake and the only thing they have to worry about is if someone targets one of them.
I think if I was a weak doc I would try and be subtle about who I was going to protect in some way. Idk I'm trying to think of the best way to utilize a possible role.

My advice to the weak doc would be something like this:

A weak doc, if there is one, should protect someone he or she thinks is obvtown. This both confirms the person as town, and has a good shot of preventing a scum kill, as well as making the scum second-guess their kill choice if the most obvtown person might get protected, and is less likely to cost us the weak doc. Probably the best thing a weak doc can do is to carefully confirm a few people as town and then claim, and/or breadcrumb after confirming someone as town. Breadcrumbing before the weak doc targets someone is possible too, although it's tricker.

Now look through and see how many times he says farside is obvtown.

vote farside

I don't think he said it too many times, but based on the fact he specifically said "the weak doc should breadcrumb" and called her town more than any other person, frankly she seems to be an obvious choice for a lynch (barring the vig situation described by scotmany).

I don't call that emphatically. And after that post you disappeared for the rest of the day. No pushing for her lynch, nothing.

[scotmany12]

If you state that someone is an obvious choice for a lynch, then that means you think they "obviously" need to be lynched. I don't even think anyone suggested she didn't need to be lynched. I suppose I should have spammed the game up with crap? Now you're gonna say some total rubbish like "because you weren't physically on the farside wagon you opposed her lynch", which is totally laughable.

Pretty sure if I was scum I'd want to be first on the wagon after calling my buddy an "obvious" lynch.

No it's pretty obvious you didn't oppose her lynch. You stayed as far away as you could without lurking throughout the day. No where did you say you supported her lynch. You simply said she seems like the obvious lynch, and left after that. That's not emphatically calling for her lynch.

Bolded part is wifom.

[scotmany12]

I am not 100% certain that scotts logic completly makes cooldog safe. But I agree the pointing out of it seemed towny on scott, now you point it out.

If it was anyone but cooldog, I wouldn't be so certain. But I don't hold cooldog in high enough regards to even think that he would try something like that as scum.

I read ortolan as being emphatic in that post, and the fact he wasnt about to change it proves he was emphatic to me. That does not clear him in my eyes, but it means that a large part of scotts case is wrong in my eyes.

What do you mean he wasn't about to change? He never voted for her, and that post left plenty of room for him to come back and say that he changed his stance on farside. He was not being emphatic at all in trying to get farside lynched. Not one bit. He made one post, dissapeared, then made one more which simply consisted of "LOL."

[scotmany12]

He was not around to change who he was suspicious of, so he was not likely to change that view.

And you know this how?

[scotmany12]

oh and also on day one you'll see I could have just wagoned cooldog instead of my obv-scumbuddy RBT.

Nice wifom. And no you couldn't. You first chose RBT before it was clear he was going to get lynched, and you said that this was cooldog's normal play and that his actions day one weren't scummy for him.

CooLDoG usually plays like this (see: meta, his signature). Thus he gets a free pass relative to RBT who I recall being less anti-town and illogical in Sushi Mafia.

You backed yourself into a corner with that, and couldn't have wagoned cooldog because of what you said. Plus, you also would have been attacked for staying off the RBT wagon (despite saying he was scummy).

[scotmany12]

Also, I should note, that the minute I mention I think ortolan might be scummy, Ortolan instantly finds me scummy rather than what he originally posted:

scot: the fact for me is you seem a (very) obvious choice right now because I'm not feeling any of the other players in this game are particularly likely to be scum. I didn't really find you scummy and initially thought your brazen defence of RBT day one was kind of too scummy to be scum, but on reflection it may just be outright scummy.

The instant I say he might be scum, he starts to spew out how everything I say is bs and how I have been trying to set up his lynch since day one.

[scotmany12]

Chaz's current unvote makes me very certain that he is town. Couple that with him pointing out yos's breadcrumb and I am very confident he is town.

[scotmany12]

oh and also on day one you'll see I could have just wagoned cooldog instead of my obv-scumbuddy RBT.

Nice wifom. And no you couldn't. You first chose RBT before it was clear he was going to get lynched, and you said that this was cooldog's normal play and that his actions day one weren't scummy for him.

CooLDoG usually plays like this (see: meta, his signature). Thus he gets a free pass relative to RBT who I recall being less anti-town and illogical in Sushi Mafia.

You backed yourself into a corner with that, and couldn't have wagoned cooldog because of what you said. Plus, you also would have been attacked for staying off the RBT wagon (despite saying he was scummy).

Yer you are succeeding in stretching out an incredibly improbably scenario in which I'm scum, but you're not telling me why it's scummy to wagon scum in the first place, and why it's not scummy to insist that said scum is town. Saying "you wagoned him before it was clear he was gonna get lynched and therefore your hands are tied" is just lol-logic. You could say the same thing about Yos2? No no your hands are squeaky clean because you insisted your scumbuddy was town.

Also, I should note, that the minute I mention I think ortolan might be scummy, Ortolan instantly finds me scummy rather than what he originally posted:

scot: the fact for me is you seem a (very) obvious choice right now because I'm not feeling any of the other players in this game are particularly likely to be scum. I didn't really find you scummy and initially thought your brazen defence of RBT day one was kind of too scummy to be scum, but on reflection it may just be outright scummy.

The instant I say he might be scum, he starts to spew out how everything I say is bs and how I have been trying to set up his lynch since day one.

Again you are completely red in the face lying here. I said quite specifically "scotmany has been attacking me all game, yet always put me as second on his list to be lynched". The first time I suspected you is today. All your points against me are

factually incorrect

. I don't know why anyone is taking you seriously.

You didn't even read my post. You basically gave cooldog a free pass because you said this was his normal play. I would have attacked you right away had you switched your vote onto cooldog. I don't think I would have been the only one. That's why you couldn't bus cooldog once it became clear RBT was going to be lynched.

I didn't lye anywhere. I could have worded that better and said that the instant I listed you as possible scum

this day

.

[scotmany12]

Chaz's current unvote makes me very certain that he is town. Couple that with him pointing out yos's breadcrumb and I am very confident he is town.

yes we already know he is town, scumbag

No one knows if he is town except for him and the scum. Way to give yourself away.

[scotmany12]

I would have attacked you right away had you switched your vote onto cooldog.

Um so you are basically saying you are going to attack me whatever I do, including taking the pro-town and correct course of action of trying to lynch RBT. So you are basically admitting to being scum here.

What? That's not at all what I said.

[scotmany12]

Your point is: "ortolan is attacking me as soon as I call him scum". This is 100% wrong. You have been calling me scum all game, based on no evidence. If I was attacking you purely because you called me scum, I would have been counterattacking your badly reasoned attacks all game.

No, that's not my point. My point is this: you voted me today with no justification. When questioned about it you said you couldn't see anyone else as scum. Then when I say you are one of my two suspects, you instantly change you approach.

[scotmany12]

I agree that it an intelligent approach, but I find it extremely unlikely it could be anyone but scot, his tunneling on me all game has just been ridiculous, I can not see

any

town player saying "ortolan is bothering me, but that's just gut", then when I'm second on RBT's wagon, next time around I'm again "one of his suspects" without explaining how I apparently bused my partner day one. Just sort by posts: scotmany and do ctrl+f "ortolan". Every time he has mentioned me it has been completely and utterly scummy. Would

any

town player even have a chance of playing like this?

How have I've been tunneling you? Me sayig that I think you might be scum is not tunneling. I've suspected leech, anon, had a conversation with cooldog at the end of day one that made me wary of him, voted for farside, and before boberz claimed doc today, I viewed him as more scummy than him.

There have been plenty of times where a town player has suspected someone based on gut, and that suspicion has grown. Don't act like this is a new occurrence that you can't see any town person making.

And I have just realized you have been lying this whole time. You were third on the initial RBT wagon. Sajin voted before you. Just because he unvoted RBT doesn't mean you automatically become second on RBT's wagon.

[scotmany12]

EBWOP: Viewed boberz as more scummy than ortolan

[scotmany12]

Why are we all safe on cooldog again??? is it still his lack of knowledge about how many mafia we have? If so I dont really buy it.

I think you understate just how much thinking would be involved for scum to consciously do what cooldog did.

Deadline is Friday, just to remind all of you.

[scotmany12]

If I had to choose between Ort and Scott, I say we off Scott and then Ort if he flips scum. I'm actually in agreement with Ort on the subject that Scott should die before him, it doesnt seem right the other way around to me.

What? This doesn't make sense.

Also, I hate people setting up lynches for the next day. I hate it. I would expect you to reevaluate the game the next day if i was lynched instead of just going right after ortolan.

[scotmany12]

Also, I'm not going to vote cooldog. I just don't think he is scum.

[scotmany12]

I need rid of cooldog, i cannot read this game without that occuring. If he is safe, remember it was Ortolan that originally called him out as safe and asserted it for a while though, dont just immediately clear scott for that.

Not that i am trying to line up scott either, I am just trying to dress an potential imbalance.

Um...no. I did it before anyone else. I literally did it right after he posted that one line.

I'm not voting for cooldog. I'm not going to help lynch someone I believe to be town.

[scotmany12]

I'm not voting for cooldog. I'm not going to help lynch someone I believe to be town.

This coming just after you repeatedly said no-lynching is completely pointless (which it is).

Lynching someone I believe strongly to be town will hurt the town if he turns up town. No lynching just pretty much does nothing. I'm not voting for someone I believe strongly to be town and possibly sending us into lylo.

[scotmany12]

Lynching someone I believe strongly to be town will hurt the town

if he turns up town.

Yes, while that is true there is no guarantee that he is town. For all you know, assuming you aren't scum, is that you're passing up at the chance to kill scum. No lynching is a bad idea. While CoolDog isn't my first choice, as I've stated, we have to do something. I'd rather lynch CoolDog than do nothing.

Except I firmly believe him to be town. Firmly. I repeat, I am not voting someone I believe strongly to be town. I would obviously prefer we lynch ortolan. But while I said no lynch was pointless before, I will take that over lynching someone I strongly believe to be town.

[scotmany12]

Lynching someone I believe strongly to be town will hurt the town

if he turns up town.

Yes, while that is true there is no guarantee that he is town. For all you know, assuming you aren't scum, is that you're passing up at the chance to kill scum. No lynching is a bad idea. While CoolDog isn't my first choice, as I've stated, we have to do something. I'd rather lynch CoolDog than do nothing.

Except I firmly believe him to be town. Firmly. I repeat, I am not voting someone I believe strongly to be town. I would obviously prefer we lynch ortolan. But while I said no lynch was pointless before, I will take that over lynching someone I strongly believe to be town.

the thing is this doesn't even make sense from a theoretical perspective. even though you may think cooldog is town, it doesn't mean everyone else does. Lynching someone you think is town when it's not LYOL is in many cases a good idea when it means progress for the town.

I am not voting for someone I believe is town. I'm not going to vote for someone and risk us being in lylo. It makes perfect sense. I'd much rather have an extra day to discuss all of this rather than lynching someone I think is town. I prefer a lynch of you ortolan. I will not help lynch Cooldog. I think he is town.

[scotmany12]

I prefer a lynch of you ortolan.

I was aware of this already

I'm drunk...so forgive me if I ramble about how I want to lynch you scummy scumm scum scum.

[scotmany12]

Vote: Ortolan

[scotmany12]

Oh hello scummany. Is that all you've got after sabotaging your own attempts to "lynch at all costs" yesterday? LoL

Vote: scotmany

Lynch the scum pl0x

Yeah cause it totally makes sense for me to help lynch someone I believe strongly to be town

Ortolan is obviously scum with his vote on me today. CoolDog is still dense like always.

[scotmany12]

Orto said he thought CoolDog was town but that he would have voted for him by the deadline (i assume he probably would have had the attention not gone onto me). That is not a town action. Town wouldn't agree to lynching someone they believe is town and risk going into lylo.

[scotmany12]

Once again I'm not voting for CoolDog.

Ortolan is obviously scum with his vote on me today.

Okay please explain this, I'm dying to see what your justification for this one is.

How the hell do my actions yesterday make any sense from a scum point of view?

[scotmany12]

well, its claim time, I still say that I am just a good ol' town...

well scot why don't you do us all a favor and vote for yourself... Or vote me so we can lynch you latter...

I'm obviously a townie. Even if I was scum, that's what I would claim, as there are only townies and a normal member of the mafia left. Are you really that dense?

And no, i'm not voting myself nor am i hammering you. I do not think that I am scum.

[scotmany12]

well, its claim time, I still say that I am just a good ol' town...

well scot why don't you do us all a favor and vote for yourself... Or vote me so we can lynch you latter...

I'm obviously a townie. Even if I was scum, that's what I would claim, as there are only townies and a normal member of the mafia left. Are you really that dense?

And no, i'm not voting myself nor am i hammering you. I do not think that I am scum.

Just reread this. EBWOP. The last sentence should be I do not think that Cooldog is scum. Sorry about that.

[scotmany12]

Good job town. CoolDog has got to be the most frustrating player to play with.

[scotmany12]

I think Ortolan played pretty well, and I respect scott for finding him.

Superb.

Sorry about dicking around as doc for a bit and forcing that game day to be rushed at the end. I still dont really see how me coming out helped us there at all, the next day it would ahve been good.

I am sure you could have worked out that I saved Leech, I felt I had made it obvious.

---

Cooldog I have real issue with your play, I simply dont get it. Do you think you helped us win that game, or hinder us?

Honestly, I was actually leaning towards you as scum until you claimed doc. I don't remember why but I didn't get a doc vibe from you.