899 FABLES- THE GRIMMAFIA GAME - The End. Mod Sucks.

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Vote: Grimmy

.

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I would consider it a personal favor if you continued to pretend that that was a post restriction. <3

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SP+RF = scumteam

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I suspect he'll open it tomorrow. He doesn't have computer access on weekends, remember.

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Vote: Sociopath

.

For being the last player to confirm by a significant margin, and not even having the decency to make up an excuse about it like RF.

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I <3 GK.

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I like RF's vote. I would support it if I weren't busy voting SP.

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By failing to vote, you lessen the information town has to determine your alignment. Scum doesn't want other players to determine their alignment. So failing to vote is scummy.

Your response to the vote was also sorta scummy. Being confrontational like that about a single vote -- especially one during RVS and especially especially one delivered in such a pithy fashion during RVS -- is very off. I think scum is more likely to get worked up like that after a nothing vote.

I'm also not crazy about your pre-game play, but I want to ask you about it first. Why did you encourage everyone without a rhyming post-restriction to refrain from rhyming?

I also also resent your implicit assumption that RVS/early-game doesn't matter. I always take early game as seriously as any other part of the game. As such, my vote for SP is as serious an early-game vote as you can expect. Being 2 days late to confirm, when those two days aren't a weekend or holiday, is as reasonable a pre-game scumtell as one can hope for IMO. I intend to continue voting SP until I am convinced that someone else is a better vote.

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Did you really explicitly indicate that you weren't random voting? I can't find it.

Your claim that you are confrontational by nature is acknowledged, but I still think your behavior was off, unless you're claiming that you're deliberately and ostentatiously inflammatory rather than merely uninhibited. I should add that I thought you were a tajo alt at first because of your rolename, which is why I thought your behavior was particularly odd.

Understood @ your explanation for asking people to stop rhyming. However, I think some players may be rhyming to mask the PR of any players who are actually required to rhyme. For example, given the flavor and the Mod's indication that understanding it is recommended rather than merely pleasant, I would not be surprised if the PR itself were a red flag for specific roles in the source material. So I'm not certain that non-PR'd players should refrain from rhyming.

I've read through wikipedia's article on the characters from Fable, but I can't find a source dealing specifically with the volume in question. (I think I've gathered the story it concerns from matching the flavor here with information on the characters page, though.) If anyone knows of a good resource, please provide it.

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EBWOP: Those are "post-restriction" PRs rather than "power role" PRs, but I suppose you figured that out, etc.

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Tajo is a sweetheart. That is sort of all there is to know.

If it becomes clear that MM, GK, and/or others are using their PR as an excuse to forego participation, I think it would be correct to call them out on it. But I think their performance is satisfactory so far.

You're welcome to link a game if you'd like, but I don't think it would be very helpful. With that many games completed, you probably have any number of playstyles to choose from, so I doubt I could trust whatever you posted 100%. So I'll just trust you on it for now, but there is a chance I may suffer from a bit of confirmation bias over the next several pages, etc.

It would be lovely if SP would post.

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Nope, he's actually usually a lower-activity player as far as I've experienced, and, frankly, one that I almost always find a little scummy.

I want him to post because I don't want to change my vote just because he lurks to safety through the early game. I'm worried about that because he has a tendency to do just that from what I can tell, so I want to illustrate that I'm not going to tolerate that.

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Being non gendered does not save you from weather
But it does seem like you are trying to avoid rustling feathers.

This does not compute for at least 2 reasons.

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Even though I am sort of sympathetic to people who are suspicious of kpaca, I sorta agree with him about that last innit.

Not sure what you mean by "mindset," though. Do you mean something like inconsistency, or is that another way of saying that it's a "gut read"?

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I see. It sounded suspiciously like a way to set-up fallacious tells down the line at first (e.g. "I know this player's mindset; he's playing town because he's just trying to look town!"), but that sounds fine.

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I was going to criticize you for that, but then I realized that you were voting mal, so I suppose I can't really hold that against you without being a major hypocrite.

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You wouldn't necessarily know this, but mal as a player is even more of a lurker than SP. SP at least tends to make good posts when he does post. Mal doesn't participate much at all. (I've only played with him in a Newbie game, so he may have chaned.) But I could see MM doing what he's doing for the same reason that I'm doing what I'm doing.

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^^;

I thought that'd be OK to say because that's the kind of thing a player new to the site wouldn't know. MM may have his own reasons.

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EBWOP: changed*

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I'm especially wary of Monkey because at this stage of the game he is voting someone without a real reason, and FOS someone that he is providing reasons for. It appears to me to be somewhat of an attempt to help push suspicions onto me, while at the same time not quite committing to an early wagon.

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You gave at least 4 reasons for your FoS'd person, but you only gave one reason for your vote on mal IIRC.

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Point taken on the PR's, though I'd still like people to clarify. If they are trying to do something else with it, then I suppose they could just say it's a pr and explain later if needed.

Oh noes.

Vote: kpaca

99% sure that that's a "post restriction" pr rather than a "power role" pr. Or is this scummy anyway?

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Uhh, I don't think I was the first one to indicate that people may be "lying" about their PR. I certainly didn't take that sort of tone toward their behavior.

As I recall, you indicated that players who didn't have to rhyme shouldn't (implying that people were lying about their PR), and I suggested that they were perhaps rhyming to hide the real PR'd players who might have extra-fancy abilities and so on. This certainly implies "lying about a PR," but that incorrectly frames my attitude toward the hypothetical rhyme-feigners.

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k.

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I thought kpaca was a play on alpaca, which is tajo's avatar and so on.

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SP's return post makes 4 principal claims. Chronologically:

1. GK is not actually that great at rhyming. (What's your point? Are you trying to get GK into trouble for breaking his hypothetical PR?)
2. Voting someone during RVS for as reasonable a pre-game scumtell as exists is silly.
3. Continuing to vote suspect players who have yet to participate is pressure voting and therefore silly.
4. It's totally OK to ignore local context with regard to the rhymers (namely, the fact that both rhymers are highly active players) and to instead present abstract information about mafia theory.

I do agree that pressure voting is silly, but I dispute that I have pressure-voted anyone, and I clearly disagree with his other assertions. I also wish I could've seen him scumhunt a little less myopically. His only real targets are the two players voting for him.

I wish I could say this makes me certain that he is scum. The problem is that I literally always think he is scum.

Stating that you'd vote him as RF is expect your 'pressure' vote on me.

What did you mean here? I'm not sure what you meant.

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GK, I don't think RF is rolefishing there. Come to think of it, I literally made the same point as RF just after that IIRC. Given that you interpreted RF that way, why didn't you call out me out for it, too?

I agree with SP about it being a little silly to call him out for inactivity now that he's shown up. It took him a few hours to post, but I don't think that's in any way damnable.

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Oh. Then:

SP, my initial vote for you was was serious as an RVS vote can be.

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Pressure votes are fine, stating 'THIS VOTE IS FOR PRESSURE, AFTER THAT I AM GOING TO MOVE IT TO SOMEONE I FIND SCUMMY' is not.

See, I think pressure votes are 100% crap, so I'm more conservative than you on this point. Luckily, I didn't make a pressure vote, nor did I ever describe my vote on you as a pressure vote or insinuate that it was such. This is the second time you have deliberately and fraudulently mischaracterized my vote against you.

I'm not "backtracking" on my vote at all. First, while sometimes (say, if everyone confirms the same day) it is indeed quite silly to get excited about confirmation order, it's not silly when one player is 2 days late. I have found that that particular tell performs WAY above chance -- better than just about anything else except for inconsistency.

Given that we now know you were away from the site, it has become largely null, but that doesn't change that voting you for that basis was reasonable at the time. (And your bizarre response to 2 votes on page 6 doesn't help matters.)

Major bummer @ ABR. I've wanted to play with him ever since I read WoT when I first found the site.

RF, I'll bother someone else when/if SP stops being hysterical. Kpaca had his turn already. Also, he's not here AFAIK. Or did you mean someone else?

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It's not a pressure vote at all. Let me illustrate why for you. Suppose you did something REALLY SCUMMY. Just to make it simple, let's say you claimed scum. Then you go away and stop posting for a bit. So I vote you. Following along so far? Now suppose you keep being away and someone else starts doing some sketchy stuff, but I decide that the sketchy stuff isn't worth unvoting you for. So I don't! Does my vote MAGICALLY TRANSFORM into a mere "pressure vote"?

It's a so-called RVS vote because it took place during the so-called RVS stage. There are no true random votes IMO. (Well, not unless someone literally uses a random number generator to select a target and fails to disclose that information, but that's sort of lame, etc.) Everyone is trying to vote the player they think is most likely to be scum. Or that's how I approach RVS.

At the same time, RVS happened, ye know, on page 3. Even if you were to confirm 4 days after everyone else (and weren't replaced for whatever reason), I wouldn't consider that lynchable on its own. That's because RVS votes are made before players have a lot of information about the game.

The game you posted was helpful, though. Thank you. (To summarize for everyone, he's the same reactionary, slightly maniacal player we have here, complete with quote-constructed wallposts and the like. It's true that he finds the scum, though. Makes for a fun iso read when you already know the punchline.) Thank you. Coupled with the fact that you were away from the site pre-game, I'll

Unvote

for now.

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GK -- As I understand it, RF rather argued that pro-town fake-rhymers were plausible. This is why:

1. Posit that a strong PR has a post-restriction that doesn't affect ability to communicate in any significant way (like forced rhymes).
2. If other town players mimick the post-restriction scum have a harder time distinguishing which player is said PR. Provided that the players don't use it as an excuse to lurk or participate minimally, it's pro-town for the same reason that minimizing claims is pro-town.

(The typical rules about fake post-restrictions (which SP listed) don't apply here IMO because the post-restriction isn't overly cumbersome (or, at least, the two rhymers are managing them well). If the post-restriction were "can only use emoticons" ala the DGB game SP mentioned (<3DGB<3), it would obviously be a different story.)

I think RF and I simulposted the same argument. We were disagreeing with kpaca's assertion that everyone should stop fake-rhyming on the grounds that, assuming that the real-rhymer is a powerful player, scum will have a harder time finding the real one.

I brought it up because it appeared to be an inconsistency on your part. Inconsistency is the only tell that has ever worked for me. Town players have no reason to be inconsistent. Scum players do, whether because they're juggling fakeclaims or protecting buddies or buddying townies or whatever. So I wanted to see what was up with that when it caught my eye.

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Understood @ your explanation for asking people to stop rhyming. However, I think some players may be rhyming to mask the PR of any players who are actually required to rhyme. For example, given the flavor and the Mod's indication that understanding it is recommended rather than merely pleasant, I would not be surprised if the PR itself were a red flag for specific roles in the source material. So I'm not certain that non-PR'd players should refrain from rhyming.

This is the relevant bit, GK.

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When I say "RVS vote," all I mean is "one of the first set of votes that all the players customarily throw out in the game." It's a "random vote stage vote," but not a "random vote." (I could understand you misinterpreting that, I guess, but I thought context made it pretty clear what I meant.) I pointed out that it was RVS to contextualize it. That was necessary because you attacked me for the vote itself, but I thought it was an excellent vote given the information available to me at the time. I hope that's clear.

However, now I have new information. Namely, you were off the site for that bit of pre-game. So your apparent "holiday scumtell" is indeed null. (As I already indicated.) And the remaining would-be scumtell -- your utterly bizarre behavior -- isn't really a scumtell for you as far as I'm concerned. So I figure I can give you a pass on that so long as you don't crawl under a rock.

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I feel naked without a vote out there.

Vote: kpaca

. He's my biggest suspect of those players who remain. Some of his behavior can be excused as new-to-the-site syndrome, but not all of it (e.g. the bit where he reframed my tone to indicate that I supported "lying about PRs" rather than "feigning PRs [to protect them]," even though he'd personally discussed that subject with me at length and had indicated he understood it).

mal, I think you need to unvote first. L-3 if the Mod just made an error.

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NB: Who is Mina? Maybe she didn't notice that the game had started?

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Check out the game he mentioned. His play here is pretty similar to that. But I also read through another game of his a few months back (it was a theme game with flavor that interested me; I can't remember which one atm), and his play there matches both games, but he was scum. So. I think it's just an SP tell, but RF may know him better than I do.

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K. Then I think it's just an SP tell.

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I agree with kpaca on the two points that seem to have drawn the most contention (that pressuring someone on an RVS vote is more productive than casting a joke vote based on someone's avatar...).

Did someone make a joke vote based on someone's avatar, or are you just trying to caricature the position that participating in RVS is pro-town?

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Fair enough. But two wrongs don't make a right, etc . Still, I can see where you're coming from.

I think your concern over MM's mal vote is reasonable. I thought he was just doing it because mal hadn't really come in and played the game yet, which I would have found reasonable, but that's not the reason he ultimately gave.

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This is how it happened:

Mal votes Mod.
MM voes Mod.
Mal votes MM, saying LOL DUN VOTE THE MOD BRO.
MM FoS's Mal.

The game starts.

MM votes Mal for "nonrandom voting in an unreasoned fashion."
Mal OMGUS votes MM.

As I read it originally, all of that was a joke except for Mal's OMGUS vote, which read a tad scummy. (The bit where he called you out for voting the Mod was almost certainly a joke; he'd already done so.) Then I figured you were keeping your vote on Mal because you wanted to hear more out of him. But you were really voting him for the Mod-voting joke?

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Those first 4 posts I listed are the firsts 4 non-Mod posts in the game. There was no one else who had done it yet. Or did you mean something else?

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SP is kinda not a very nice man innit, but I agree that unvoting would be pointless. Having votes out helps keep a public record for later analysis. They are nice.

And anyone who hammers prematurely will face extraordinary D2 scrutiny.

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I'm excited. <3

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Ooh, I got the longest one!

As I mentioned previously, in his post 76, he referred to malp's "rolename" rather than his username which could have been a scumslip.

It was kpaca, not that that helps matters. I'm just in a habit of typing "rolename" over and over, is all. I don't blame you for taking that perspective.

Like GK, Iec calls out Socio for lurking at a point in time where it was far too early to do so.

Actually, I don't think I ever called him out for having lurked per se. I said that I wanted to keep my vote on SP during the kpaca interrogation because SP lurks through early game sometimes and I wanted to try to limit that, but the lurking hadn't happened yet. I did, however, point out and emphasize SP's relatively late confirm.

I'm interested in his post 154 in which he says that late confirming is actually scummy and “that particular tell performs WAY above chance -- better than just about anything else except for inconsistency.” Iec, please provide evidence in support of this claim. I'm not disagreeing with it; I'm just interested in seeing evidence of the stats that you have compiled.

I haven't formally compiled stats or anything like that, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are stats to that effect on forums somewhere. The explanation for the phenomenon is that scum often may communicate pre-game until confirmations are in order, so they have a motivation to delay. The game that was in my mind when I posted that is currently ongoing, so I can't link to it, but I just looked back at it and it seems that the player I thought confirmed late didn't actually confirm late. I can give more information about what led me to misremember this case when the game ends, which should be soon.

I'm not enamoured of the level of hyperbole Iec utilizes in some of his posts. Examples: he claims that Socio is “fraudulently mischaracterizing his vote”, claims that his responses to votes on him are “bizarre” that he is “hysterical” and - in a subsequent post - that he is exhibiting "utterly bizarre behaviour." Excessive hyperbole such as this pings my scumdar.

Meh, just trying to make my posts dynamic enough to be readable.

In this same post (154), Iec sucks up to the absent ABR (he does it again later, too, and I abhor sycophantic behaviour, although it's not necessarily a scum tell), and then seems to deflect from kpaca at the end of the post for no apparent reason (other than defending or buddying) that I can see.

What can I say? I literally have a crush on ABR. Post the deflection for me, please; that doesn't sound familiar.

In 170, right after the votecount comes out (when it shows that a couple of votes against kpaca didn’t count because they had not unbolded first) Iec votes kpaca [this could be opportunistic – i.e. after realizing that some of those votes didn’t count, Iec can jump on the wagon and look like he was on it earlier than he really was] but he leads into his vote with a stupid reason, “I feel naked without a vote out there” – which looks like he’s trying to minimize his vote at the same time that he’s casting it.

I'd just unvoted SP without revoting someone else. I really dislike not having a vote out there unless there's a compelling reason (e.g. evaluating a cop claim and wanting to avoid quicklynches).

In 174, Iec asks who Mina is and suggests that maybe she didn’t notice that the game had started. This looks off to me because it's like Iec is giving Mina a built-in excuse for not posting, but that is inconsistent with Iec's calling out other players for not posting previously, and Iec says that inconsistency is the only scumtell that works for him.

The intent was "There's another player in this game, guys. Maybe she didn't realize the game has started yet. " I'd hoped the "NB" would serve to make my tone clear.

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Nothing much else to comment on about your post, though, except that you confused kpaca and SP in the RF bit. (D'ya do that on purpose?)

Your "leaning town"-ification of SP is a little odd, maybe. SP "overstates" and does something "pretty pointless," but overall his posts "read legitimate." So...since your specific details about him are few and negative-to-neutral, what specifically seems nice? Is it just gut?

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I wanna hear what she comes up with on Mordy, first. Cause I literally have no idea.

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The 180 is actually a very good point, I think. Given a belief that faking the PRs is anti-town in this case, kpaca was literally the least obvious player for Mordy to attack. (When you prior said "Mordy's early posts," I thought you were talking about his "RF doesn't like people in his face" posts. Which would've sorta been beating a dead horse.)

I don't think Mordy necessarily lurks more as scum, though. Refer to Moviestar Madness, where he was scum and literally everyone thought he was town (scum lost, but only because the SK happened to kill Mordy the penultimate night). I agree that his visibility here seems less than in that game or in the Newbie game I played with him, but that perception could be colored by the comparatively high activity in this game, especially early-game.

Then again, MM was a no-reveal game, so that probably afforded him a lot more flexibility. I'd be interested to read a more traditional scumMordy game.

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OK. Makes sense.

However, I assume they're not fake unless there's a reason to believe otherwise. I've seen no reason to believe otherwise.

Reread the first two pages to extrapolate said reasons if you want. It will probably contextualize the early-game discussion. Not that I think the presence of reasons should/would affect your perspective.

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Err, my point was that there may or may not be evidence on those pages implying that one or more of the PRs is feigned. I thought it was topical because you said you didn't see a reason to believe one or more might be feigned. It's nice to know that said evidence exists because it means that the early game discussion of the topic wasn't totally irrelevant to what was actually happening in this game.

I agree with everything you said in that post, though.

(Speaking of that DGB game -- how do you make all those fancy smilies? I know there are 22 available via the "Smilies" button, but DGB was doing all kinds of crazy stuff.)

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That game is highly informative, but do you have anything a little more recent? That was 6 months ago.

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(EBWOP: That was 6 months ago,

and you were lynched D2

.)

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Nevermind. Assuming your wiki is complete, that's all there is. Ah well.

I thought to ask for something more recent because I imagine you'd change your strategy after being lynched D2 using it.

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Mordy's scum performance in the posted game was very one-dimensional. In short, she exclusively lurkerhunts and distances from literally every non-lurker wagon. (It could be that they were all actually crap wagons. I only read her iso, so I dunno.) I'd encourage you to glance through her in isolation in that game.

It's true that that was 6 months ago, though, and she's had a superior (but no-reveal) scum performance since then.

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I agree that it can be scummy in the abstract for a player to focus on nullifying things. DDD did this in my first game on the site. I called him out on it, no one believed me, I was mislynched, he ended up scum.

However, I just did ctrl+f "null" (yesyes, not exactly scientific) on the 6 month old Mordyscum game iso. There are only 4 instances, and, unless I'm mistaken, they're all criticizing other players for inappropriately calling things null or quoting other players calling things null. So I don't think that's necessarily a Mordy thing, unless it's a new Mordy thing. I'll do the same science experiment on MM in a bit.

I'm not crazy about his defense, though. Mordy's acting like it's unbelievable for a player to make the kinds of observations ABR has made. I'm waiting for kpaca's post tomorrow for now.

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Mordy, IIRC, you chainsawed your scumbuddy on page 2 of MM... ^^;

Anyway, reading -->

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Short experiment. No evidence that Mordy is or has ever used nullification as a scum tactic. Only 2 instances in that game -- one where he criticizes someone else's nullification and one where he "begrudgingly accepts" another player's nullification.

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I don't understand your distinction. Could you clarify?

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I see what you mean, but I think you're misunderstanding what he was accusing you of. (Or I am.)

As I understand it (via 256), he's saying that you're acknowledging the WIFOM elements of individual issues (in problematic ways). (Or that's certainly what DDD did in my first Newbie game, even if that issue was a little more complicated.) Sometimes, this is OK to do. Like, suppose I were to claim Miller. You might say that I could be a real one or a fakeclaiming one and declare it null in the short term. But you can also do it in ways that are really silly. Suppose someone finds himself in a WIFOM situation and I say "My goodness, it's WIFOM! Better ignore that one; it could go either way!" While what I said is sort of vacuously true, it leads everyone to ignore potentially-worth-considering information.

So it's sorta the flipside of what you're terming WIFOM. I think post-restrictions are certainly not null, so I could understand someone finding your apparent nullification objectionable.

ABR is welcome to dispute this.

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K.

Waiting on kpaca.

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I am tentatively unimpressed with kpaca's post.

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He has not posted, but he indicated he would. I suppose it's not tomorrow yet.

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Well. Now it's tomorrow.

I will be highly annoyed if he lurks to replacement.

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What a boring weekend.

I'm fairly certain there's room on kpac's wagon for anyone who wants in. Unless I'm mistaken, RF and GK jumped off for Mina and ABR, respectively, and haven't come back. Doublecheck, though, because there hasn't been a VC in awhile since the Mod doesn't have access on weekends.

Prod/Replace kpaca

.

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He keeps on both acknowledging the arguments against Mordy and weakly defending him.

I acknowledged the arguments in the abstract, but I don't think there is good evidence that only scum does it or that it is a reliable tell for Mordy. This is relevant because ABR characterized his read as gut. See also below.

Don't like how he keeps on using meta (occasionally in contradictory ways) to defend Mordy. For example, what was the point in bringing up that Mordy rarely used the words "null tell" in one particular game as scum? That doesn't make Mordy any less likely to waffle on posting restrictions.

First, I checked both (all) of Mordy's scumgames on the site. I investigated Mordy's past scumplay to determine whether nullification was a scum tactic Mordy has used in the past. The result was that it was not. If Mordy is scum, this is a new tactic for him. Again, this is relevant because ABR characterized his case as gut. Meta can help to determine whether it's a playstyle quirk or a scumtell.

Why do you think I have used meta in inconsistent ways?

Also, the huge exchange between them on posting restrictions came across to me as a load of nitpicky, obfuscating filler.

I dun even know what you're referring to here tbh. Post what you're referring to, please.

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So, it looks like kpaca hasn't responded to his prod.

Jazz, that game I alluded to earlier just ended. It's DTF's Nouns Mafia. I had incorrectly remembered that Boxman confirmed late, was wagoned early for it, lurked to replacement, and ended up scum; in actuality, he made an inane RVS post, was wagoned early for it, lurked to replacement, and ended up scum.

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I have the same take on the Mina->DoS interaction as the ABR->Mordy interaction. DoS sort of always appears scummy to me for some of the reasons Mina has indicated. Namely, his play here reminds me in particular of his play in an ongoing game.

On the other hand, his playstyle isn't conducive to determining his alignment. As such, he's a lower-cost mislynch, but I don't think we should head that direction unless we approach deadline without a serious suspect, and I'm still pretty satisfied with kpaca unless his current pattern of inquiry bears fruit.

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DoS sort of

always appears scummy to me

for some of the reasons Mina has indicated.

I just reread this, and I realized I should clarify that the bolded bit is my point about DoS.

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Refer to Movie Madness mafia for a finished game where DoS flipped town but literally everyone thought he was scum. I should note that he didn't really lurk in that game (so it's not quite the same as this), but I still got the same scummy vibe from him. Refer especially to his D2 claim for some amusement.

I don't feel comfortable saying too much about the ongoing game, but I can make the neutral observation that such an occurrence would be necessary to make my having alluded to the ongoing game relevant.

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I bought the Deluxe edition of Book 1 yesterday. Nice read.

Kpaca needs more votes, a prod, and a replacement.

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As I recall, I ctrl+f'd the word "null" because ABR said something like "null, as you call it" in one of his posts during the ABR->Mordy bit. If it happened enough that ABR noticed it, I figured that word would probably be a reliable heuristic for finding that kind of rhetoric in his scum games. It's true that it wasn't a very scientific search method, but I think the results were pretty unambiguous, so I wasn't overly concerned about that.

I wasn't familiar with Mordy's older scumgame until I went hunting, but I knew about Movie Madness from the start because I played in that game with him. So I started with a specific idea of how Mordy played, but that idea was contradicted by the older game I read later on (which also had the more standard rule mechanics). So the changed style could either be due to the rule mechanic (in which case lurkerMordy is scummy, if not nullifierMordy) or due to improved skill (in which case lurkerMordy isn't a priori scummy, either).

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If it happened enough that ABR noticed it, I figured that word would probably be a reliable heuristic for finding that kind of rhetoric in his scum games.

Having reflected on this a little, I just did the same thing in this game, and it looks like Mordy just said it the one time in this game, too. So maybe it's not such a good heuristic, after all, but I think it's still pretty reasonable since we were only talking about one Mordy event in this game, anyway, and the rare scumMordy instances in other games involved attacking others for using the tactic IIRC.

[Iecerint]

My ABR-worship was derived from some games I've read that he played in, WoT mafia being the one I followed most closely. This is the first game I've played with him, so I was excited. (I had a similar reaction in the two games I've played with DGB.) I agree that his performance so far has been underwhelming.

Nothing else to comment on, really. kpaca still stands out, and his simultaneous notability and low activity are really stalling the game. He needs extreme prod abuse and/or replacement.

[Iecerint]

kpaca needs one, too, please. Has been 5 days.

Done - Grimmy

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I can imagine a circumstance where the modified Bible quote is fine, but it's not quite what GK said, so I don't want to point it out in the event that he elaborates.

However, the bit about "off-topic" posting not being subject to the restriction is a little harder to believe. That sounds extraordinarily easy to exploit to me.

GK, assuming that your PM is the basis of your belief that you may post normally if it's off-topic, how does your PM operationalize "off-topic" posting? If your PM isn't involved, what's the basis for your belief?

[Iecerint]

I read up on it some on Wikipedia, and I've read Volumes 1-2, but not Volume 4. Do you have specific questions?

[Iecerint]

Well, I know there are several pro-town witches in the flavor. I'm not certain whether some or all of them speak in rhyme in the source material (they're not introduced yet by Volume 2, but I'm fairly certain they exist as of Volume 4, which is the relevant volume for our purposes), but it would fit if they did. That's sorta the assumption I've been working under. If someone who's read farther than me knows how the witches communicate in the source material, that would be helpful.

Did you ever explain why you want to lynch DoS? Assuming not, when do you intend to? Also, has your opinion of Mordy changed?

[Iecerint]

Fable, singular, is a video game, but that's not what we're playing. The flavor is based on Fables, the graphic novel series.

Sorry. Simulpost. But I thought that was pretty transparent.

[Iecerint]

However, the bit about "off-topic" posting not being subject to the restriction is a little harder to believe. That sounds extraordinarily easy to exploit to me.

GK, assuming that your PM is the basis of your belief that you may post normally if it's off-topic, how does your PM operationalize "off-topic" posting? If your PM isn't involved, what's the basis for your belief?

[Iecerint]

What about quotes, both of players and non-players (ala the Bible)? What about modified quotes (ala your post)?

[Iecerint]

Looks like Gerhard and Monkey confirm each other, at least on the PR front.

Huh? Where does Monkey confirm the built-in holes in GK's PR?

[Iecerint]

If you check pre-game, MM doesn't start rhyming until after GK starts. So if either of them are faking, I think MM is. He could be doing it for pro-town reasons, though (familiarity with flavor => save the witches => fake the rhyme). This is why I had that perspective about the rhymers early game.

It's possible that the pre-game stuff confirms the off-topic-OK (subsequently, OTOK) business, but you'd think MM would've mentioned it in his post. The fact that he did not implies one of these:

1. MM doesn't have a PR, so he doesn't want to fake-confirm OTOK. Nullish IMO. But now's maybe the time to come out with it.
2. MM is PR'd scum, so he doesn't want to confirm OTOK.
3. MM is not reading the thread, so he didn't mention it. ^^;

I doubt MM has a different PR without the allowance. If he did, he would have mentioned it about GK by now.

[Iecerint]

Meh, site's better today. And my other games are chugging along.

The two player slots that I'm waiting for input from -- kpaca's on anything/the plan for world-saving; MM's for comment on GK's OTOK -- are inactive, so is a bit dull innit, etc.

[Iecerint]

It'd be nice to at least get a claim out of him.

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I meant that we should replace him and make the replacement claim.

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I was going to ask whether it was just L-1, but I think you're right given E's vote. How annoying, etc. <_<

Sanhora, did kpaca have information on MM? I think he mentioned as much when he popped in to save the day.

[Iecerint]

Well, it's nice that there's no premature lynch, I suppose, and at least something happened. ^^

Dragons: In his first serious post (205) he voted Mina for her (2 day late) entrance post, in which she called out others for not posting when she herself had not yet posted at all. Valid points by Dragons. Neutral.

I also want to see more content from Dragons. He says that his "case" on Mina is "the best one out there right now" but that just sounds like nonsense to me.

Anyone see the problem here? Okay, DoS did kind of dig himself into a hole between those two quotes, but still--at first she liked his case on me, but now she's using air quotes to describe it?

TownJazz finding DoS's case bandwagony would explain the perceived inconsistency IMO, and I don't think DoS has made a terribly helpful post all game, so that seems like the most parsimonious explanation to me. I'd agree with you if DoS'd actually made a decent case against you, or one that was highly analogous to Jazz's, but if he did, I can't recall it, at least.

That said -- ABR's poor, poor replacement.

Unvote; Vote: ABR

.

[Iecerint]

SP, it looks like you're attacking Mina for clearing Sanford and being relatively sure about ABRscum. I certainly understand the former, but I don't understand the latter. Why are you voting ABR? Is it different from the reason that Mina is doing so?

[Iecerint]

Sanhora's reaction does not prove he was town
Scum try to act townish even after the enevitable goes down
The evidence on Kpaca is to hard to ignore
But the near hammer by Albert gives us more info to store

I believe that one is town and one is scum in the end
To think that both are on the same team is too difficult to mend.
So if Sanhora flips town, we have scum for next day
So lets all get in a conga line and start shouting HOORAY!

This is very cute, but I disagree. I agree that ABR and kpaca are almost certainly not scum together, but, to the extent that ABR is not obvscum based on his meta, it's not at all true that they couldn't both be town.

[Iecerint]

I agree with DoS about MM. I also don't like MM's recent claim that both ABR and kpaca having been town is impossible; in actuality, the only unlikely combination is that they are scumfriends AFAIK.

Since town had no reason (except error) to make that assertion, it could be that he was hoping to set-up a double mislynch. This looks slightly more likely IMO owing to his having ignored my criticism; maybe he thinks it'll go away, or that my failure to have voted him meant I wasn't serious enough about my criticism to pursue it. I think a scum player would be more likely to take that route whereas a town player would be likely to at least throw out a "my bad" or something.

There's also my prior point that there is a chance that he is faking his PR, whereas I think there is relatively little chance that GK is doing so. If he were faking the PR for pro-town reasons (as I prior speculated), I think he probably would have stepped in to help us evaluate GK's somewhat bizarre OTOK claim, especially because I explicitly mentioned as much back then.

Coupled with the assertion by a couple players that ABR could realistically pull that stunt as town (which I could possibly believe from the WoT read, though this is still a bit extreme),

Unvote; Vote: MonkeyMan

. Am awaiting ABR's replacement, though.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP:

Impossible

"Too difficult to mend," but it's the same argument and doesn't affect my criticism.

[Iecerint]

I am inclined not to vote monkeyman,
until I have decided how strongly I feel about his rhyming.
Perhaps it makes sense for the two rhymers to be in the same van,
but both as scum would be terrible aligning.

1. Why is his rhyming the predominant tell you're concerned about?
2. Why are you even alluding to the possibility that you may both be scum? O.o

[Iecerint]

1. K
2. It's not that mentioning it is scummy; it's that mentioning it when you're one of the parties implicated makes the PoV sorta off innit.

[Iecerint]

I'm laboriously reading through Volume 4 on Amazon right now because it's apparently not released in Deluxe edition with 3 til later this year. It looks like one of the characters asked the mirror where he could find his wife. Granted, the Amazon read skips a lot of material, so this could be totally irrelevant. I get the impression that lots of players have access to it and might be able to use it.

[Iecerint]

Flycatcher asks the Magic Mirror to find his wife in Volume 4, which collects the March of the Wooden Soldiers issues. So that's a time where it's implicated in the current story. Could be that it plays a relatively minor role in this arc overall, though.

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GK

, can you tell us (And if needed, PM the mod) if the rhyming MM has done in post 432 is allowed?
At the same time, MM, can you tell us in what ways you have to rhyme before GK tells the answer to his question?

I think GK, at least, as already answered that question. Check the vicinity of the OTOK discussion IIRC.

Because when Iece repeated his argument and seemed to like it, you had nothing to say against Iece and instead, you responded to it. But anyway, I agree with Kpaca's argument against you. And as stated, it got worse when combined with posts 119 and 171. But hey, you obv don't care in that as you avoided it. Should I also let Iece repeat it? Perhaps you will comment on it then.

I'm not quite understanding. Do you have any typos in here? Also, which specific arguments of mine are you referring to?

[Iecerint]

"Vicinity" means "area." "OTOK" (off-topic OK) is my term for the bit where GK claimed he didn't have to rhyme if he was talking about off-topic stuff, or within quotes.

The post I'm thinking of has GK say that his PM just says that he has to rhyme rather than it specifying a specific rhyming scheme or anything like that. I could be misremembering, though.

Thanks for the extra information about those posts. Your point is no longer mysterious.

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Nevermind.

@Mina - My pm simply says my posts have to rhyme.
It did not give a starting time.

This is the post I was thinking of, but I suppose it doesn't necessarily answer your question.

[Iecerint]

I don't care about his meta anymore, it's equally likely Albert does what he does as town or as scum. And I think that's the largest wagon that is not one of the two above mentioned people, but I'm too lazy to check.

So...you're literally and transparently voting Albert just because he's the biggest wagon. Do I have that right?

EBWOP: Forgot about your implicit PoE, I guess.

[Iecerint]

I think it's fair that, now that the game has gone on for awhile, Mordy is not quite as active or helpful as he's been in some other games I've played with him. Still, my bias is to lynch MM over Mordy -- mostly for the reasons in my vote post and just before.

Is nice to hear people on either wagon communicate willingness to switch, though.

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Ooh, nice catch on Ell --

I won't be backing either a Monkey or San lynch today. You're not getting reasons out of me right now so don't ask.

I don't need reasons per se, but I would certainly like a framework that keeps San-not-kpaca in the safe wagon.

[Iecerint]

PoE is process of elimination. I was alluding to your statement that you didn't want to vote for Sanford or MM for mysterious reasons. Since I think MM has been a bit sketchy, your (implicit) role-related reasons for eliminating him from your scumlist helped justify your poorly-reasoned ABR vote. (Not that there aren't properly-reasoned ABR votes out there; just that yours is transparently poorly-reasoned. But you're really transparent about it, at least.)

[Iecerint]

SP, you've been voting ABR since his panic attack. What do you think of MM?

[Iecerint]

That's a misrepresentation of the PR angle of the case against you, and it ignores the aspects of the case against you that have nothing to do with your apparent PR.

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Post 333 (why are we focused specifically on 333? but whatever) has ABR saying that inconsistency in claimed PRs is lynch-worthy. At the time, I disagreed with him because I thought it might be reasonable to fake a PR for town reasons. However, MM's failure to help out during OTOK strongly implies that he is non-town if his ability is fake. It also more weakly implies that he is non-town even if his ability is real, since you'd think he would be willing to give us that information given GK's apparent deviation from his PR.

PR-less, high-profile scummy behavior by MM includes trying to set up a 1/1 on Sanhora/ABR, lurking through the mid part of the game even though players were addressing him (namely Mina IIRC) and he was posting elsewhere, and his evasive/minimizing responses to all of these concerns.

[Iecerint]

Question him all you want guys, actually question him as much as you can, but trust me that today is not the day to lynch Monkey.
Again, I'll be willing to get behind any wagon that is not San or Monkey. This day needs to end already.

You've said (upon Mina's prodding) that your reason for not wanting to lynch kpaca/San is

not

role-based, but rather based on San's play upon replacing. Are you saying that your reason for not wanting to lynch MM

is

role-based or otherwise official?

[Iecerint]

I think you're scum. Obviously, I'm going to demonstrate why I think your actions are indicative of scum. Claiming a 1/1 on Sanhora/ABR when there isn't one is scummy because it potentially sets up town for a double mislynch.

[Iecerint]

I believe that one is town and one is scum in the end
To think that both are on the same team is too difficult to mend.
So if Sanhora flips town, we have scum for next day
So lets all get in a conga line and start shouting HOORAY!

It's true that you didn't literally type "1/1," but you certainly used that argument.

I would not say that I am "rather certain" that Sanhora is town, but I do think his play's been nice since he replaced in. In fact, my perception that neither of their alignments is cut-and-dried is what makes me find your 1/1 rhetoric all the more troubling.

Ell's information is noted.

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Yeah. I just doublechecked, and ABR threw his fit first. Hmm.

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I second particularly the second of DoS's @ Ell questions.

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Ell, I glanced through your iso to check for RF stuff, and found this:

I want reads from Monkey and DoS before the day is over.

If your case for MMtown is purely role-based, why were you formerly looking for a lead?

[Iecerint]

The ABR-sized hole in my heart has been filled.

[Iecerint]

In no particular order --

1. ABR/(DGB) -- Hammer attempt, then ragequit. But he is kinda an angry man, etc. And my crush on ABR is matched by a relatively small subset of players, among them DGB.
2. kpaca/(Sanford) -- Literally a very scummy player. But Sanford seems like a nice lady, and ABR's failhammer on him/her was awfully sketchy.
3. MM -- Literally a very scummy player -- maybe even moreso than kpaca (check my recent posts). But Ell apparently has role-based reasons for him to be town.
4. RF/(dana) -- Case is relatively weak IMO, but Ell-with-data wants to kill him. And DGB, apparently. Maybe.
5. Mordy -- Mina thinks he's scum for meta reasons.

The other sketchy event today was when GK claimed he didn't have to rhyme if his posts were off-topic. O_o But he's a very skilled rhymer, and MM is more likely to be faking his rhyme due to the order in which they started rhyming early-game, so he's mostly gotten a pass here. (NB: MM's failure to weigh-in here is a major point against him IMO.)

I think that's everyone who's gotten attention.

[Iecerint]

BTW -- V/LA until Monday morning. I'll be skiing.

I *may* be able to check in tomorrow morning.

[Iecerint]

It depends on what you mean. Here are some possible interpretations of what you said:

If it says "Snow White is in the game," you should not supply it.
If it says "Ell is Snow White," you should not supply it.
If it says "Snow White is town," you should possibly supply it.
If it says "Ell is town," you should possibly supply it.
If it says "Ell is townSW," you should possibly supply it.

Do not claim on the basis of these opinions alone. I didn't think too terribly hard about them.

[Iecerint]

If that's all it is, I think the main effect of claiming it will be making fakeclaims slightly easier.

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Iec was blatantly misrepresenting me for something HE KNEW AS FACT to be FALSE

Wat.

But I second his @DGB question about attacking RF but not me for ABR-fawning. Would like to hear from her, etc.

I wanna read through RF again before I decide on Dana. She is encouraged to offer suspects in the meantime.

[Iecerint]

(Still want to play obvs.)

Hmm.... I'd assumed you had implied that other tells had outweighed it. This changes things a little.

DGB, I've fawned over you in every game we've played together. What makes it different when it's ABR?

[Iecerint]

I should point out that

if I'm not mistaken, I'm also currently voting MM

.

[Iecerint]

I think the Boy Blue claim is believable. When I was agonizingly trying to research this Volume of Fables, one of the reviewers indicated that he was "very happy" with what "they did" with BB in the novel. He's also a real non-entity in the Deluxe Edition (Vol. 1-2) that I read. So, assuming that I'm not misremembering the review or something, that fits with BB becoming a fancier person pending certain conditions. I actually had BB in my head when Dana first described his role.

I wish I were in a position to make a private shortlist for who MM might be. He's claimed (temp)gimp rhymer so far, which doesn't bring anyone in particular to mind. (I think Mina was the one who knew this sort of thing.) I need to find Volume 4 at the library.

A thought on MM: if the punishment for a second infraction is just a one-day-only loss of voting privileges, we can probably confirm his PR, at least, at minimal cost.

[Iecerint]

GK, please indicate your degree of familiarity with the Fables series.

[Iecerint]

Blue Boy on DC Comics Wiki.

He apparently becomes Batman. O_o

[Iecerint]

It looks like it isn't in the rules.

Mr. Mod, at deadline, will a non-majority lead to the player with a plurality of votes being lynched, or to a no-lynch?

[Iecerint]

I mentioned that earlier. It certainly couldn't hurt. On the other hand, I personally think he's still my favorite lynch regardless of whether his PR is fake.

[Iecerint]

GK, please indicate your degree of familiarity with the Fables series.

[Iecerint]

I thought ABR was scum as I read WoT. I remember cursing town for not lynching chamber, who replaced him. Can't remember the circumstances under which ABR replaced out, but he was town.

Could you link to the ragequit ABR game you're thinking about?

[Iecerint]

Good find. O_O

I've been trying to ask GK about his experience because I didn't know if he had the necessary background to fakecrumb Magic Mirror from the start:

My gender is my own secret,
for in this game a sex I do not get.

I am strangely inanimate,
though I speak with those I have met.

So long as I must rhyme,
my true identity shall be only mine.

Details of the role are different (the crumb'd penalty for failing to rhyme is different from what it was in the other game), but the PR and the crumb match. This probably bodes well for him. OTOK is still kinda O_o though.

kpaca probably noticed the breadcrumb way back when. Why he thought it would be pro-town or impressive to point it out to everyone is anyone's guess.

There are some differences even within GK's circumstances, which implies that this set-up is not quite that set-up, so it's not that MM is automatically lying, but this is probably another point against him.

Would love Mina to help me out here. If MM isn't lying, who might he be?

MM should break his restriction and change his vote to prove his PR at minimal cost.

[Iecerint]

Probably because the Magic Mirror is town and the only rhymer in that game. Bonus points if she noticed GK's crumb. Granted, I'm sure some stuff's changed, but Magic Mirror would seem to be 3rd party at worst.

Ell could also maybe answer whether his role is plausibly related to his PR, if he has that information.

[Iecerint]

Oh, is that our Grimmy as Geppetto? O_O

An even better find. ^^;

[Iecerint]

Poor Grimmy.

[Iecerint]

GK's role, at least, is apparently a little different from the old version. I would not be surprised to see some deviation from the template.

Still, it's a useful tool in the very short term for increasing the prior probability that GK's PR'd Magic Mirror is not a lie, and sundry little bits yet to come.

He is welcome to, you know, play the game and dispute this.

NB: We have less than 24 hours to lynch someone. Even with Ell's vote of wait-and-see on him, I think MM looks worst for his play (namely, setting up a double mislynch and failing to weigh-in on GK's OTOK PR stipulation, which is fairly sketchy) and for his secondary rhyming PR in spite of the larger game having only one rhyming PR AND another player probably having said role. I'm keeping my vote where it is unless Ell can come up with something pretty soon. Also, I'll be in classes until late tomorrow, so I don't know how much access I'll have to the site. I should be able to check tomorrow morning.

[Iecerint]

Well, Rapunzel is a step in the right direction, if she exists. I'm sure she has the sense to name her mason if she exists at this point.

Who do you think is better? Your main alternasuspects have been ABR/DGB and GK IIRC, but I'd rather lynch MM than either of them. I wouldn't want to lynch dana, either.

[Iecerint]

Come to think of it, was Boy Blue on that list?

-->

[Iecerint]

Nevermind. He's there, and it matches. So I stand by that, too.

[Iecerint]

Starting around midday, I thought the rhymers could be either FT or Baba Yaga. (I had/have no idea about the rhyming of the latter; it's just that rhyming seemed like it would fit witch flavor.) Also, judging from what I've read about her, FT could almost be a 3rd party character based on flavor alone. She eats babies, and she appears more concerned about her own affairs than that of the town. From what I could tell, she was sorta on the border between an anti-heroine and an anti-villain, though I think she shifts to the former as the story goes on.

Anyway, with the inclusion of the old game, which apparently can't account for his role, except in gimped/modified form, MM has another brick in his coffin.

One thing to consider if he is FT -- we're perhaps better off killing him now even in such an event. It looks like scum recruit RRH as BY if they NK her. From what I remember from the link, it's different if she's lynched, but doublecheck for me, please. -->

[Iecerint]

Vote: Play

I see no reason to stop. And so long as I'm here:

1. Mina's sort of dead now, but I should clarify that my last post was based on my perspective on the rhymers prior to DGB posting that. Obviously, my speculation about FT changed when I saw who she was in the old game.
2. I haven't been at the computer since my last post; I've been meeting with people who'll teach me Biochemistry. So, I dunno what Mina was referring to there. Maybe I left it open somewhere or whatever.
3. No complaints with Ell's list, really. SP has pretty much confirmed that Ell is Clara, so it would make sense that he has Rose Red or whomever as an informant. I'm not sure why he thinks Jazz is Rose Red, but this could have to do with the nature of whatever message was sent N0. It's also worth keeping the wooden soldier mechanic in mind.

[Iecerint]

Also -- I'm assuming from flavor that Ell killed Mina? Why on earth did he do that? O_o

Though I suppose the flip makes it only minimally tragic.

[Iecerint]

(Was I just naughty? I figured I wasn't trying to break the game... ^^;;;; )

[Iecerint]

Hmm. I haven't been reprimanded. So I'll throw this in:

Ell, why did you think we should put off MM? O_o

[Iecerint]

The fact that the Mod has modified Jazz's role a bit (naughty girl, to indicate as much) indicates to me that he is willing to make whatever changes are necessary in the short-term to make the set-up playable.

[Iecerint]

With 7 left alive and a presumed 3 scum, it's no longer possible to ensure that Ell dies before SP unless Ell can target SP while we lynch her. Even in that eventuality, we would have to count on scum wasting their kill by targeting someone who can't be NK'd or being RB'd to prevent an N3 win.

An alternate possibility is to try to hit both of SP's scumfriends with lynch+Clara. This is significantly more of a gamble, but it would allow Ell to win and eliminate the need to stop the N2 scum kill.

A third possibility is to let Clara become SK and hope for the best.

It is worth indicating that it's possible that there are only 2 scum. SP indicated that there were 3 total scum and one on the way yesterday, but the game hasn't ended. (4 current scum would end the game.) Either he was exaggerating and Rodney is not in the game (reasonable since scum would've just picked up Baba Yaga if Mina hadn't had the decency to die last night), he may not actually recruit, his target incidentally could not be recruited, or he was roleblocked.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: It's also possible that his target is dead, I suppose.

[Iecerint]

Oh. Well, that makes things considerably simpler, and I could see Grimmy making that kind of alteration given the circumstances. Also, the claimed loss of your vig prevents you (or at least gimps you) from coming back with SK powers in the event that you are lying.

Vote: SP

.

[Iecerint]

Hang on, though. Who was your 2nd D1 kill? O_o

[Iecerint]

Also, plz answer my post-D1 questions. Why did you want us to lynch someone who wasn't MM? Why did you target Mina?

[Iecerint]

Ah, OK. I suppose that explains the MM business, too.

Carry on.

[Iecerint]

Is the hammerkill mechanic new, or was that also in the original game?

[Iecerint]

Also -- was SP aware of your vig choice?

[Iecerint]

Socio needs to die because he is claimed scum Godfather. We were going to lynch Ell tot let her win with town, but she claims that is no longer necessary. As SPGF has indicated, it is possible that this is a gambit because Ell perceives it to be easier to win as SK than town; however, I think the balance shift is reasonable. Also, lynching Ell at this point requires that scum are unlucky in their target tonight and/or that SP's only scumfriend is the Snow Queen.

I will participate in a massclaim if that is what people want. However, I think it is not necessarily a good idea, because some of the roles that have not been claimed include forms of NK immunity. Claiming roles would eliminate that variable when scum determine their targets.

OK @ Ell. I asked because SP seemed reluctant to lynch MM along with you. I didn't know whether this implied that MM was his copy target. That eventuality would be consistent with the game continuing today (e.g. as the 4th scum would have died yesterday). But it looks like it's probably parsimonious to assume that his reluctance was due to his knowledge that it was your vig target.

[Iecerint]

Hang on a minute. Positing that DoS didn't have total amnesia about the events late D1, I think I see what DoS means. It also contextualizes his request for a massclaim.

Unvote

for now. I need to check a certain thing from the old game.

EVEN IF ALL YOU SCUM TRY TO SPEED LYNCH A POOR, DEFENSELESS TOWNIE, DISCUSSION WON'T END UNTIL THREE DAYS FROM NOW.

That. Is an interesting claim. It would also demystify the game's continued existence. Do we know the end conditions of the old game?

[Iecerint]

Posts 34-45 in his iso. It is not very subtle.

I mean. It's true that he didn't literally claim "Godfather," but he implicitly (and unsubtly) indicated that he was Geppetto.

[Iecerint]

It looks like DGB had legitimate amnesia. Go figure.

DoS, did you have legitimate amnesia?

[Iecerint]

Ell, when did you lose your masonhood with SP? N1 or D2?

[Iecerint]

Right, I remember you saying that. However, given that that is true, it also means that SP is completely aware of whether or not you are gambiting. So his posts today (cf. 700) aren't just random drivel.

On the other hand, he could just as easily post it to stir up discontent, etc. I suppose we'll be able to evaluate you by your abilities.

Having received that information from you and the response from DoS, I'm prepared to hammer. Would this hurt anyone's feelings?

[Iecerint]

K.

dana and Sanhora haven't posted, anyway. How annoying.

[Iecerint]

I think Sanhora is likely to be scum if there were 3 scum to start. I'd rather delay the inevitable until she (and dana, but that's comparatively remote) have had a chance to post. Grimmy can't move us to the night phase until the end of the weekend at the earliest, anyway.

[Iecerint]

Yes.

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Sounds fun. <3

Sanhora is scum unless there were only 2 starter scum (in which case she merely *may* be scum), or the scum set-up was changed around a bit from the old game.

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Frau is an old lady. She is also an abortionist. That is how she gets her magical powers. No joke.

I love right-wing publications.

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danakillsu
- Claimed prior to the old game being found. Pretty solidly town, unless scum were given fakeclaims this time around.

Elli
- Interaction with SP strongly implies he isn't scum, even if roles were switched around. SP was under minimal scrutiny at the time of the thread being found, but Elli gave us SP nonetheless.
- Possible SK after SP's death, but has claimed this is different in this game.

DGB
- Role-related reasons for her to be town
- Also makes little sense as scum. She could have waited and shared the list N1.

DoS/San
- The remaining players. If scum started with 3, they are both scum.
- If scum started with 2, I think DoS is slightly higher-probability, but only just. Given the apparent role interaction, she could have claimed that DoS could confirm her regardless of her alignment. Still, the fact that she had apparently been hammered lowers the chance of that slightly.

EBWOP: I suppose the observation that everyone is apparently confirmable may call dana into doubt a bit, but he also matched the ability from the old game, so I'm reluctant to take that too seriously. I do wish he'd post, though.

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DGB, what exactly did you google to find the old game?

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EBWOP: Nevermind. Got it.

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It would be nice for dana to post something. He hasn't posted anything since a week ago, when he indicated he wanted to keep playing because of his interest in the game.

Prod: Dana

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^ Amazing.

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We were mostly waiting for you.

Hammering SP will kill scum. It has the side-effects of ending the day and potentially making Elli an SK. The latter is probably a necessary risk at this point; the former is just a matter of whether you'd rather do it now or chat first.

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I think he just has three, unless DoS is some kind of Prince Charming hybrid.

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DoS is lying.

Vote: DoS

Not only do I know that DoS is lying, but I know that San couldn't have told him that. The Mod indicated that my ability couldn't work N1 because of the spirits in the town. If your abilities are at all similar to the previous game, you know you couldn't use yours, either, so you know that San couldn't have used an ability N1 or N2 to tell him my identity.

I don't doubt that Sanhora thought he was Beast -- we know from MM that Beast is in the game somewhere -- so SP probably expanded the Geppetto-mason mechanic to Lumi (and/or Rodney). Dana-with-a-fakeclaim is probably the 3rd scum, if there is one, for jumping the gun like that.

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I don't think Elli is the 3rd scum, because he exposed Geppetto unnecessarily. I don't think DGB is the last scum, because she shared the list when she could've just told her scumfriends. This leaves Dana and DoS as the remaining scum.

(It's *possible* that Elli is SK-kept-down-by-spirits-of-the-town, but there has to be a Lumi, anyway, and that's DoS, unless he's Rodney and Lumi is someone else, so DoS is the better lynch.)

If there is only one scum left (Lumi), that scum is DoS. However, if scum started with 3, then dana has to be the last remaining scum by PoE. In such a case, he'd have to have either found DGB's game ahead of time to make the fakeclaim (less likely, since he'd just replaced in and would have had to have made an awfully lucky guess), or have been given the Boy Blue fakeclaim ahead of time (more likely), because the claim matched the old game's version so well.

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I already told you guys I didn't have any abilities N1 or N2.

Did you? O.o

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Glanced through DoS in iso. Three things stand out:

1. He 100% ignores the kpaca (= Sanhora) situation through the first 10 pages of the game or so. DoS probably knew his townMason was a Cop, and consequently would've been satisfied by his mislynch.

2. He doesn't really start playing the game until after San replaces kpaca. Here's his read on SP at the time:

Sociopath: It seems to be generally accepted that he is playing within his town meta, and I think that he has made some good counter arguments toward those who don't agree with how he plays the game. But I don't see a lot of original non defensive thought from him either. For now he is in my town category.

He references others' arguments when arguing that SP is town, offers a critique of SP's play, and then "warily" puts him in his town category. Looks like a scumfriend, etc.

3. This was the big red flag for me D2:

Wait, why does socio need to die?

Also anybody else think a mass claim would be beneficial to us at this point?

He has selective amnesia about the main conversation topic for the last 3-4 pages of D1. I tried to get him to expand on this in my follow-up post, but he didn't take the bait. (This one is slightly weakened by DGB's analogously bizarre behavior -- not sure what was up with that -- but DoS's still fits with him being SP's scumfriend.)

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DoS is not a very good historian.

First, it is not the case that kpaca was never close to lynch. Namely, kpaca would have been lynched if Grimmy hadn't decided not to count ABR's hammer. DoS's new claim that he was lovers with kpaca and avoided helping him in spite of that just makes his behavior all the more difficult to believe. It also leaves us to wonder why he's still alive, since she was NK'd last night.

Second, he never "called me out" on anything yesterday. This is the relevant part of the post I made in response to the offending DoS post from yesterday:

Socio needs to die because he is claimed scum Godfather[...]

The post after that is the one where I try to fish more out of you (since, as you have sort of implied in your previous post, your amnesia was troubling), so it's not as if your amnesia was immaterial to me, either. It's true that I let up a little when DGB did something similar, though.

I didn't use any day abilities D2, so I can't confirm whether day abilities are spared by the "spirits" business. That said, San targeting me during the day does fit her crumb on "doing something with me" D2. I bet her result is the reason scum killed her last night. Too many innocents would have implicated DoS and/or dana.

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Would-be hammers don't come out of nowhere. They happen because someone who was close to a lynch gets one more vote. Your argument that you neglected to protect your hypothetical town lover because things never got serious cannot be taken seriously. Your point that you were in the middle of a reread is similarly difficult to take seriously, except to prove my point; rereads, except for very quick ones designed to save your lover, aren't a natural response given townDoS's D1 situation.

My quoted post is to indicate that you didn't "pressure" me. It's obviously not intended to instantiate me pressuring you. And it's correct that my pressuring on you was fairly minimal; when you didn't respond and DGB had symptoms similar to you, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt in the short term.

It's not really that terrible of a gambit, except for the frankly bizarre lovers claim. Given San's indication that she wanted to do something with me D2 and the likelihood that Beauty/Kay were tied into a single role, I'd say the only thing you're making up is what San's result was.

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^ And the lovers claim. That one's a huge fakeclaim slip-up. Don't quote misleadingly.

Lies/gambits are best when they're close to the truth.

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Well, you're still alive, aren't you? That would seem to contradict the lovers claim.

No, you're scum who was given Beast as a fakeclaim, in the same way that SP was Geppetto given "Vulko Crow" and masonhood as a fakeclaim. Grimmy was Geppetto in the old game; he probably liked the mechanic so much that he expanded it while simultaneously reducing the number of roles in the game. The absurd Beauty-Beast-Kay-Bigby-Hakim cluster would be an obvious place to significantly reduce the number of connecting roles.

L-2 is, frankly, quite serious business, especially when several off-wagoners have openly expressed interest.

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I don't understand. Do you think it's plausible that we're both town and San was a reverse-death miller? O.o

I mean, cautious is fine, but unless you have a 100% on someone else, there's a fairly solid 1/1 between DoS and me as far as I can tell.

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I'm a nice guy, I give Yerky some last words before we obliterate him into oblivion with our blaster rifles.

Did your fiery breath experience a miraculous recovery?

Oblivion sounds like a scary place. Don't send me there. I'm a lady. Not the one you think I am, though.

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I accused DoS falsely because he accused me falsely. I can't explain San's apparent result on me -- it would require changes in existing scum roles -- but DoS looked scummy from my end based both on his bad information on me and his playstyle relative to SP all game.

One of you is Lumi. I know it's not Elli based on his kill flavor. It has to be either dana or DGB.

On the other hand, if there are actually two scum, this is kinda a worthless day, since lynching either of them will be impossible, except that ElliSK may have his daykill back.

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Elli is only scum (as in SP's-team-scum) if either Lumi or Rodney got fire-breathing powers or a free fireball-flavored daykill. We know this because of the flavor involved in Mina's death. I think that's pretty improbable both for flavor reasons (Lumi is the Snow Queen /=/ fireballs, Rodney isn't a magician) and for setup reasons (scum had at least 2 members to start, plus (presumably) Baba Yaga if Mina hadn't died, plus recruits starting D2 pending a lucky target N0). It's possible that he's some kind of fire-oriented alternate scumcharacter, but it doesn't seem like Grimmy included any other new roles in the game, and bussing SP like that would nonetheless have been a unnecessary waste given SP's conversion abilities.

Elli being SKscum is less remote (it matches the old game), but making him town would nonetheless make this game fairer to town. If there aren't fewer scum somewhere, Grimmy drastically reduced the number of players without also reducing the number of scum. Rodney not being in the game could account for ElliSK, maybe, though. It's starting to look like at least one of Rodney and SK probably aren't present.

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Yeah, I'm saying that Elli probably isn't scum, or at least that he probably isn't on SP's team. It's relatively probable that he's an SK, though. His comment about sending me to Oblivion is a possible SK slip. I need to think about whether going down that path is the best one.

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It's an SK slip because it implies knowledge that town is mechanistically capable of lynching scum, which is only possible if Lumi has no scumfriends. This probability is maximized if you are an SK, because then you would know that Grimmy almost certainly reduced the number of starter scum given that this is a smaller game than the old one, especially considering that Baba Yaga is in the game.

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(EBWOP: Mina's originally flipping "yellow" is the basis of my belief that she was Baba Yaga-able.)

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In the original flavor, the Red Riding Hood who comes to Fabletown isn't really Red Riding Hood, but rather is a scum-aligned witch named Baba Yaga in disguise.

To simulate this circumstance in the old game, Red Riding Hood starts as town, but then becomes scum if Lumi magic-duels Frau successfully. The fact that Mina flipped as a yellow (rather than blue or red) Red Riding Hood led me to infer that that mechanic was preserved in this game.

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Vote: Ellibereth

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She was town, but only because she died D1. In the old game, she only becomes Baba Yaga once Lumi successfully magic-duels Frau.

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Ugh, I didn't see your vote post. Lame. <_<

Ah well. Here's hoping Elli flips SK. With any luck, he even fire breath'd the scum for us.

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I think it's still possible to win if Elli was SK who fire breath'd Lumi. In fact, I think that's maybe the only eventuality that could let us win.

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Even if Elli was town, we might get lucky and have what happened last night happen again (provided that there's no Rodney). It's almost inevitable, actually, unless you're Lumi, which I doubt. Then we can lynch dana tomorrow.

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I'll believe it when Grimmy posts a vote count. I have good reason to believe that something else accounted for the failed NK. Also, that would subvert the original function of SP's lynch, which was to balance the disproportionate loss of Geppetto to scum.

In the meantime, please make up flavor for your pretend ability. I wanna read it. <3

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You are actually a crow. Or are you saying that you were turned back into a dragon?

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Hmm. It would appear that you did target me last night. It would also appear that it is consequently impossible for anyone to be lynched today that is not me.

Regardless, that's not why there was no kill last night. The only consequence of your action is that today will be very boring. I don't blame you for targeting me after DoS's flip, though.

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EBWOP: Unless they commit suicide.

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I'd vote No Lynch to spare us the 8 days of waiting, but I suppose that wouldn't be much use, would it?

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The circumstances involving the interaction of my role with DGB's are such that it is unlikely that she is scum. Moreso than the DoS/San relationship.

I suppose dana is Lumi by PoE, but it's irrelevant because he cannot be lynched without me.

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It takes 3 votes to lynch someone. My vote doesn't count. So it's impossible to lynch anyone who isn't me, unless someone self-votes.

dana is Lumi by PoE because Lumi exists and it isn't me or you, and Elli's fire flavor doesn't really fit with her, not to mention that he gave us SP.

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I suppose I can

Unvote; Vote: dana

on the off-chance that Elli is for whatever reason lying slightly and his ability only affects my ability to vote for him.

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Am I the only one confused by dana's apparent failure to be activated as an omni vig/paranoid fellow? It's supposed to happen after RR and RRH are dead. I suppose RR isn't quite "dead," but ye know.

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Unless I'm mistaken, if I am lynched, Elli (regardlesss of alignment) will tie with danaLumi.

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I guess it's fine to claim at this point. I don't think dana can do much about it, anyway, and he's probably figured out the gist of what happened given that he knows blocking me wouldn't explain the lack of kills.

I'm Snow White, but my role's slightly different from the old game. I started the game with the ability to search for Bigby during the day. I picked up on ABR's breadcrumb in one of his earlier posts and targeted him. N1 I became mason-lovers with DGB and got access to Ghost, who I can send to investigate someone at night. I targeted Mordy N1 and DoS N2, but I got no result both nights because of the "spirits." Last night I targeted dana and got an innocent result. I don't put too much stock in that, though, because the old game indicates that Ghost only checks someone as "guilty" if he targets someone in the act of killing.

One of the consequences of our lover-masonhood is that we are NK-proof under certain conditions. I won't specify the exact conditions of our bulletproof-hood; they may or may not resemble those from the old game. That was what I was assuming was responsible for the lack of NK.

DGB doesn't want to lynch me because she leaves town with me if I'm lynched. This will leave dana and Elli, who would kill/block one another ad nauseum, so it'll lead to a tie.

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dana probably switched to voting for you because he recognized that DGB's refusal to vote me would make lynching me impossible. His vote doesn't really make sense otherwise.

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Chronologically:

My name is Albert B. Rampage. Recognize this, bitch.

I'm excited. <3

I literally have a crush on ABR.

I can hear the sounds of violins
Long before it begins
Make me thrill as only you know how
Sway me smooth, sway me now

I took this as ABR breadcrumbing to me, missing my confirm, and then hunting for me again. I sent in my action after the last.

I tried to highlight what DGB had missed before she replaced in:

The ABR-sized hole in my heart has been filled.

1. ABR/(DGB) -- Hammer attempt, then ragequit. But he is kinda an angry man, etc. And my crush on ABR is matched by a relatively small subset of players, among them DGB.

I thought DGB had figured it out when I saw this:

RayFrost's RVS is Grimmy, which is to me a way to avoid giving himself away by accident. He declares scumbag SocioPath to be town, which boggled my mind. The fawning over ABR disgusts me - it's as if he wants to suck up to avoid random lightning strikes from his God. Also, I was only half-joking when I called his replacement scum. He's already lurking.

Icerink is town. Of this I have no doubt. There are hints all over the place.

Because she thought that RF was scummy for fawning over ABR, but not me, and because of the "hints." So I tried to confirm --

DGB, I've fawned over you in every game we've played together. What makes it different when it's ABR?

And I guess she was kinda telling me to take a hint, because she followed up by saying I was an idiot, and she reposted two of my crumbs to ABR (page 22). I guess my last was a little unnecessary. <_<

We didn't really breadcrumb D2+ because of the roles being out already. I did indicate that I had role-based reasons for thinking DGB was probably town D2, though.

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Assuming that SP's abilities and Mordy's abilities were the same in this game as in the prior one, MordyFrau almost certainly roleblocked SP N1. It's unlikely he managed to recruit anyone N1.