Mini 857 Disney Movie Mafia 2 - The Classics (Roll Credits)

[Kublai Khan]

You, me, and LlamaFluff seem to be the only people that give a damn about the game at this point xD

The Khan-man will put an end to that!

Er.. that is until after I read up on the past 42 pages. Gimme a couple of days. I'll give status updates as I go, though.

[Kublai Khan]

Welcome, KK.

Thanks! I was too busy to join when the game started, and I was surprised not to get tapped as a replacement for ZONEACE.

Up to page 13 so far and the game is still pretty dominated by MonkeyMan576 vs Starbuck vs Chamber stuff. Two of which are dead townies so it's not horribly useful. Once I get done reading I'll re-read with more focus on the living players.

In the meantime is there any situation or person I need to keep an eye on in which you want my opinion?

[Kublai Khan]

Up to page 30. Sorry this is taking so long. By Sunday at the latest I'll have a big post ready to go.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, I'm all read up. Big post coming later tonight.

[Kublai Khan]

Grrr.. I couldn't vocalize how frustrated I am if I tried. I spent 3-4 hours typing up a pretty detailed summary of my reads and notes in Notepad, then had some sort of power 'hiccup' that my shitty battery backup ignored and *poof*. Nothing.

&%^##&^ and stuff.. Here's my re-written post with all the excess fat chopped off.

--

The main point I was going to make was that the deadlynch is

probably

the biggest piece of information we have. Especially since it is coupled with the next day death of a GF who was one of the potential lynches. I think it's really important to look at who voted for who, and why. And also why their vote didn't change.

So let's bring back to the deadline lynch vote:

Deadline Vote Count

MonkeyMan576

(4) - semioldguy,

Neopi

, Gorrad, StrangerCoug
Starbuck (3) - Jazzmyn, YankCane151,

MonkeyMan576

Neopi

(3) -

chamber

, Starbuck, Crazy

Not Voting (1) - Brandi

Now, let's go down the line.

StrangerCoug

- Ends up looking scummiest due to the fact that he added the hammering vote. He already answered somewhat for it, but being that all three choices had made a role claim and there's this quote from earlier in the game..

Unvote: MonkeyMan576
Vote: chamber

See post #242 for my reasoning. I'm not lynching a claimed PR on Day 1.

In your "hammering" post you put your choices down to between Neopi and MonkeyMan576 and I know that you were pretty consistently suspicious of both of them... But you had also voted for Starbuck for a period of time after the Crazy "fakeclaim" slip so she wasn't exactly on your list of townies either. Why the backtrack on your Day 1 PR lynching policy?

Gorrad

- You voted for MonkeyMan576 for withholding his flavor (per Post 694). Since that post you attacked Starbuck for unvoting MonkeyMan576 and attacked one of the main reasons for pursuing a Neopi lynch ("LAL is the worst policy lynch ever."). But after Neopi's claim, you stated thought Neopi's claim was overpowered and that he was probably scum, but didn't change your vote.

... I guess I don't really have a question for you. I kinda find you straight up scummy.

semioldguy

- Was consistently against MonkeyMan576 all day. Maintained solid pressure, didn't misrep or ask leading questions. I have no problem with his behavior. However, he was pretty tunneled on MonkeyMan576 (and chamber, I suppose) which means he had near ZERO interaction with Neopi beyond asking him for a little more flavor detail behind his claim.

Because I have a town read on her, whereas I have a scummy read on MonkeyMan576 and neutral leaning scummy read on Neopi (and slight scum read on fuzzylightning prior to Neopi).

{assuming that "slight scum" is greater than "neutral leaning scum"} How come you had more of a scum read on fuzzylighting than Neopi? What on Earth did Neopi do to reduce your suspicion of that player slot?

Jazzmyn

- According to your vote, it was Starbuck's attempted self-hammer which earned your vote on her. Which you carried out until the end of the game. I'd try to analyze more, but you gave a very detailed explanation (post 887) about exactly what your reasons were for keeping your vote where it was.

Do you still think that Starbuck is the scummiest player in the game? If so, why aren't you currently voting for her?

YankCane151

- You switched your vote from Neopi to Starbuck after Kmd4390 was day-killed. But then you didn't really justify why you were leaving it there at deadline. Plus you went from this:

Vote:Starbuck

Her lynch will help us find out more info.

to this:

Monkey, You say Starbuck's lynch would gives us the most info regardless what she turns up, but what about your role? Are you lynching(and convincing others) to lynch Starbuck because you think she's scum, or because you think you'll "find out the most"?

Could you summarize what happened between those two quotes? Why does it seem like your chastising MonkeyMan576 for pushing an information lynch when you were voting for Starbuck for the exact same reason?

Starbuck

- You have been quite the post-leader of this game, and I had a much longer paragraph initially. You goaded MonkeyMan576 for the majority of the day. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes not. You originally voted for Neopi for lurking then kept it on until deadline. However when one reads your posts in iso bewteen the Neopi vote and the end of the day, you're doing nothing but attacking and baiting MonkeyMan576. If you thought MonkeyMan576 wasn't the right person to lynch, why were you pressuring him so much?

Also,

I really don't understand why there were still people on Monkey's train at the end of yesterday. I know I threw out the theory of him possibly being the Tramp, but his flavor definitely mirrored his role, no matter how scummy I found him to be acting.

Why does this Day 2 behavior not jive with this late Day 1 post?

I'm either for Monkey or Neopi. I definitely think there's a lot that Neopi isn't telling us.

Kublai, there's probably not a lot in there that you can answer since you aren't Brandi, but please try your best to do so?

Uh, as far as I can see, your case on Brandi is based on inconsistencies in her opinions. I can't answer for any of that.

Crazy

- You voted Neopi because "it was the best alternative you could see". You were consistent in your questioning of him to get more info. Plus you plainly stated your view of the top three potential lynches before the deadline. So pretty pro-townie play altogether. I got no questions for you.

--

Vote: Gorrad

[Kublai Khan]

You just voted Gorrad without saying anything about him.

You blind? He's right after StrangerCoug...

[Kublai Khan]

Because I started believing the claim less and less and MonkeyMan576 was acting so scummy that I figured my best option was to reconsider what I had said. I lost Mini 825 for believing a jailkeeper fake claim to the point I barely questioned it. (I'd have to check the day the claim was, though.)

I just checked.. The jailkeeper (Rick Ross) claim was made on Day 1.

But that's not really what I'm asking. You do realize there's a pretty big gray area between not questioning a Day 1 claim for the rest of the game (like you did in Mini 825) and lynching a claimed PR on Day 1 (this game).

[Kublai Khan]

I know, especially since hammering a claimed PR is, by definition, questioning the claim. What else needs explanation?

Heh. Well, I'd say that a hammering, by definition, strongly doubts the claim. When you question a claim you're kinda looking for answers, not death.

[Kublai Khan]

Since some mod decided to give the scum fake role PMs to use. I've gotten such a fake in my first mini theme.

Interesting. How likely do you consider that possibility?

In the first Disney Mafia, LlamaFluff didn't give us (the mafia) any fake role PMs. But then again all our characters were generally the heroes from their respective movies. I'm expecting it'll probably be the same for this game.

I strongly doubt there's going to be a "Pixar Mafia" or "1980s Mafia" or anything else that you guys speculated about on Day 1.

[Kublai Khan]

also noted in skimming that KK is asking questions of Yank...need to read a little better, bud.

Crap, was so busy reading the Day 1 stuff and making my delete original post I forgot he got replaced.

Sorry about that.

[Kublai Khan]

I guess I do have a question for you, curiouskarmadog..

On your catch-up post you said:

448, Neopi, enters game and vote Star…..(this puts Star in my town category)

How does a super newbscum voting someone make them town? Typically my experience has been that newbscum tend to vote their partner(s) as a sort of clumsy bussing attempt.

[Kublai Khan]

KK(brandi)….moved KK to the neutral category, but still leaning scummy from Brandi…that being said, I like KK read through post, watching him though, to see what he does next….sits and wait?...scum hunts??...lurks?

Eh, mostly wondering why Starbuck didn't answer the questions I asked her. The fact that she ignored my questions to her and instead focused on my Gorrad vote doesn't sit well with me.

Plus I'm waiting on Gorrad because he's my top scum suspect. (EBWOP: Gorrad is back! Grr.. waiting until tomorrow..)

Also:
The Jazzmyn vs. Starbuck text-walling needs to cool down. Starbuck seems like she might some valid points but it's negated by the "gotcha!" arguments and overall insulting condescension. Jazzmyn is landing a couple of blows, however she is backpedaling a bit. But overall the giant text war is a null experience and well...boring. Nobody should ever quote the same person more than three times. Choose your battles and focus on each other's scummiest positions if you want attention, because I'm just skimming over the war at this point.

@Starbuck & Jazzmyn: What are your reads on Gorrad?

[Kublai Khan]

Hey, Gorrad, the last post where you told us your thoughts about anything was #939, and that's me being lenient on you. Are you really that far behind?

Yes.

Wait... You've been in the game from the start and the replacements (curiouskarmadog & I) are waiting on *you* to get caught up?

[Kublai Khan]

My neutral leaning scummy read was based on residual scumminess from the player slot that fuzzylightning left, yet I was not able to get a read on Neopi. None of his posts were hardly more than a single sentence and the newness of the player prevented a good read.

But isn't the fact that his posts are unreadable a read in itself? If I read a scummy read on fuzzylightning, I just can't fathom how an unreadable newb could possibly lessen that read.

I really don't feel I was pressuring him. As I said to Jazzmyn, at that point, a watcher/tracker combo could have been a good possibility. I was throwing out what I was thinking because any and all information helps the town. If my idea was far fetched, I expected that it would have been shot down. When really it wasn't until Day 2 when Monkey flipped as his claim.

You also saw that at the end of the day that my vote WAS NOT on Monkey. It was on Neopi, who was the person I found to be the scummiest. I only have one vote and I placed it on the scummiest person in my eyes.

Well, after I read the game I re-read the last few days of Day 1 in io for everyone. You did have your vote on Neopi (action) but all your posts (words) were engaging MonkeyMan576 and his shenanigans. My main issue is that your actions didn't match up to your words.

Your vote was not on MonkeyMan576, but you were set to easily switch your vote over to him without having to look like you had a drastic GF-saving change of mind.

Eh, mostly wondering why Starbuck didn't answer the questions I asked her. The fact that she ignored my questions to her and instead focused on my Gorrad vote doesn't sit well with me.

The tone in these sentences is incredibly evasive. Why would you say "I wonder why Starbuck didn't answer my questions" instead of "Starbuck, please answer my questions?"

WTF? That's pretty cheap and scummy of you Crazy. You quote my response in Post 1119 and dissect it as scummy without acknowledging what I was responding to.

In context, curiouskarmadog asked me what I was doing, what my plans were for this game. And I replied that I was waiting on Starbuck. I was not addressing Starbuck directly but I was hoping to lightly prod her (which worked, BTW).

[Kublai Khan]

I understand the context, but that doesn't seem to be a big deal for me. I suppose what bothers me more is that you never actually asked Starbuck to answer your questions. (For me, I tend towards this behavior when I'm scum, which is why I'm asking.)

Why did the source of what bothers you change from my tone to the delay in prodding Starbuck to answer?

You asked all your questions on November 22nd. If you actually did care, then why did it take you until November 25th to ask Starbuck why she hadn't answered your questions?

Starbuck even responded immediately to your vote on Gorrad - why didn't you ask her then?

She stated that she was preparing for a memorial service. And she was so distracted that she missed an entire paragraph of my post. I figured it could wait.

[Kublai Khan]

Why did the source of what bothers you change from my tone to the delay in prodding Starbuck to answer?

It's all kind of the same. It's either "You never asked her directly" or "You only asked her indirectly."

I don't see it as being the same. The directness/indirectness of my tone and the length of time that passed before the comment are two distinctly different things.

Did it only occur to you that that was scummy 3 days later, or did you just neglect to mention it for 3 days?

When curiouskarmadog asked what my plan was for this game, I thought about it. I went back and looked at who answered the questions I asked and who didn't. That's when I noticed that Starbuck hadn't answered. That's when I prodded for an answer.

So my answer is that it only occurred to me 3 days later that her behavior was scummy.

[Kublai Khan]

So the fact that I missed your questions because you had a super long post but answered them as soon as you made mention, gives me no merit in your eyes then?

I didn't refuse to answer them as you are eluding to.

What?? *facepalms*

I never said you didn't answer them. Crazy is asking why I didn't pressure you to answer my questions in the 3 days between the time I asked them and when I mentioned that you hadn't.

And my post wasn't super-long. It was longish but organized by having the subject of each paragraph underlined for easy navigation.

But couldn't you understand that because she was preparing for a memorial at the time?

Look, I sorta understand where you're coming from, but you've got it wrong. The person I'm focusing on, who I think is scum, is Gorrad. In the three days after I posted my questions, I wasn't really checking if Starbuck was answering. I was checking for Gorrad's reaction to my vote. When curiouskarmadog asked what I was waiting for I did a quick check to see who answered my questions and who didn't. Everyone had answered except for Starbuck--whose only reaction to my catch-up post was to try to note that my vote on Gorrad was without a case. So that's why she got a follow-up prod from me.

You ready to come down from Mt. Molehill?

[Kublai Khan]

WTF?

unvote

Hopefully LlamaFluffy isn't too strict with deadlines.

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Starbuck

Sorry, Don't feel ready to vote for Jazzmyn for that last minute reveal and I've got townier feelings about StrangerCoug and curiouskarmadog atm.

[Kublai Khan]

So why myself over Crazy?

You give no reasoning for your vote on me.

Crazy had no votes. A vote for Crazy is a vote for no lynch.

I also don't like how Jazz is quite threatening with her post. My vote will remain unless Gorrad comes in to defend himself.

Gorrad's V/LA

Yeah, I'm not ruling out the idea of a bad scum gambit.

After thinking about it..

unvote
Vote: Jazzmyn

If Jazzmyn is gambitting, then she's scum.
If she isn't gambitting, then she's town but obviously values her role less than Gorrad's.

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Jazzmyn[/b]

If Jazzmyn is gambitting, then she's scum.
If she isn't gambitting, then she's town but obviously values her role less than Gorrad's.

This is a good strategy. Move your vote, Starbuck.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay..

First, what is an "innocent child" role is in this game? The mafia wiki tells me nothing useful.

Second, what happened to you Starbuck? Ignoring that we didn't know that LlamaFluff would be strict about the dealine... with no one else around we could have shifted the lynch to Jazzmyn instead of a power role.

@Jazzmyn: I'll echo semioldguy's question from 1159. You

really

didn't give us time to re-evaluate the deadline lynch with your last minute info. The only thing stopping me from voting for you now is the fact that I can't see how it's in scum's interest to try to save Gorrad. (Unless, of course, I start WIFOMing the ending moments of yesterday)

I'm thinking massclaim, since we have at least 2 scum, and probably an SK out of 6 players.

Agreed. We've got 3 killing methods (Erased, Shot, Torn to Pieces) so I think a Vig, a SK, and a scum group is very, very probable.

I'm down with a massclaim. Popcorn is always best. I guess Starbuck should pick who starts since she's already claimed.

[Kublai Khan]

I do have a life and was out for the day making preparations for my trip to the States (which is where I am now). My bad that I wasn't sitting in front of my computer all day.

Alright, it's unfair of me to attack you on that. But in fairness you were the only one who posted near the deadline time.

The better question is why are you jumping all over me about not moving my vote when you never moved yours?

What do you mean I "never moved my vote"? Posts 1150, 1151, 1154 (This page!) disagree with you.

[Kublai Khan]

The better question is why are you jumping all over me about not moving my vote when you never moved yours?

What do you mean I "never moved my vote"? Posts 1150, 1151, 1154 (This page!) disagree with you.

But the very last vote count found here makes those posts null and void.

Our mod stated in the post I linked that deadline had come two hours earlier. Your vote switches to me and to Jazzmyn happened after the deadline.

Right, but I didn't know they'd be null and void until after LlamaFluff returned. Some mods count all vote changes up to the point where they lock the thread, others are strict about time. Now I know that LlamaFluff is the latter. At least I made an attempt to not lynch a power role, you posted that you were fine with Gorrad's lynch.


...

So can we get back on track now? Jazz is V/LA. So in the mean time, I feel that you need to pick someone else who isn't V/LA to claim next to keep the game moving. I know what you said in 1186, but I really feel that is a cop out and that we need to keep things moving.

No, we wait. Now I'm not suggesting in any way that Jazzmyn is lying about her home circumstances, quite the opposite actually: My thoughts and prayers go out to Jazzmyn and her family (thinking back she had some sick family in the last game I played with her, too). However, I'm not setting a precedent where scum can go V/LA when asked to claim which allows them to move their claim order to the end of the line.

Blame SensFan for my paranoia. We wait for Jazzmyn to return before starting up claims.

[Kublai Khan]

I have nothing of importance to say. I consider both Starbuck and ckd to be about 90-95% town.

Unless if one of the other 3 says something that makes them look really really town, then I'm not straying from that.

I would really like the reasoning behind this...

[Kublai Khan]

That's weird, because the behavior surrounding your claim is one of the things I find most suspicious about you.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, it's a generally understood meta-fact that all vanilla claims at L-1 are lynched. The only time that scum can claim vanilla townie and get away with it is to claim earlier than L-1 (say L-3) then immediately make an excuse as to why they claimed so early ("forgot the number to lynch... again!") or they can claim vanilla townie during a mass claim.

You've done both, Starbuck. The first one I was kinda letting slide (though it nagged at me), but the second is rubbing it in a little.

[Kublai Khan]

I did make a mistake because I had replaced into quite a number of Newbie games at the time and the Day 1 "# to lynch" is 5 in Newbie games because they only have 9 players rather than the Mini's 12. So I did think I was at L-1, I can't refute this.

Yeah, I read the explanation. I'm just not sure I buy the story.

If you think that pushing for my lynch is beneficial, go right ahead. I'm only a Vanilla Townie. Hell, I wish I had some way to steer this game other than my personal opinion, but I do not.

Woah, defensive lady! When did I push for your lynch? The game is dead enough to get a mass prod, so I'm digging into my bag of "small stuff that's bugging me" to make conversation.

But how could I have done both?

I had already claimed prior to massclaim ever being brought up

, and all I did was reiterate what I originally said.

Huh?

Crazy - 1160 -- "I'm thinking massclaim"
curiouskarmadog - 1162 -- "I am fine with a massclaim"
semioldguy - 1163 -- "I'm for mass-claim. "
Starbuck - 1164 -- "I've already claimed and I will reiterate it once more. Buzz Lightyear, Vanilla Townie. "

I've said many times that I find Starbuck's claim to be really good flavor-wise (Buzz makes a good Vanilla Townie - if she claimed a power role it would be less believable), which means she is very likely to be town.

Let me make this clear - I'm not saying that I like the claim because Buzz is likely to be pro-town; I'm saying that I like the claim because Buzz is likely to be VANILLA.

Huh? So because she claimed vanilla, she's more likely to be vanilla?

I still think you're putting way too much faith in flavor. I'm curious what kind of hoops you'll jump through to explain how Balto is a Pharmacist.

[Kublai Khan]

Copper from The Fox and the Hound, a tracker (no limitations).

Flavor: I'm a really good hunter and can sniff out anyone no matter where they go.

Night 1 - Brandi tracked Neopi to chamber
Night 2 - I tracked Jazzmyn and she went nowhere

semioldguy is the last to claim.

[Kublai Khan]

So to recap...

Crazy - Genie from Aladdin (Vanilla Townie)
Jazzmyn - Baloo from Jungle Book (Vanilla Townie + 1-shot Protect)
Starbuck - Buzz Lightyear from Toy Story (Vanilla Townie)
curiouskarmadog - Simba from Lion King (Progressive Townie (now a Double-Voting Vig))
Unright - Copper from Fox and the Hound - Tracker
semioldguy - Robin Hood from Robin Hood - Vanilla Townie

[Kublai Khan]

Unright

- Copper from Fox and the Hound - Tracker

Alt? Lol.

Heh.. Hydra, actually. Sorry, been thinking too much in the third person and training myself not to say my own name.

So to recap...

Crazy - Genie from Aladdin (Vanilla Townie)
Jazzmyn - Baloo from Jungle Book (Vanilla Townie + 1-shot Protect)
Starbuck - Buzz Lightyear from Toy Story (Vanilla Townie)
curiouskarmadog - Simba from Lion King (Progressive Townie (now a Double-Voter))
Kublai Khan - Copper from Fox and the Hound - Tracker
semioldguy - Robin Hood from Robin Hood - Vanilla Townie

Okay, will re-read the last few pages then do some iso reads with claims in mind to see what fits and what doesn't.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, I just realized that the town can still win as a group... if mafia is lynched today, nobody dies tonight, mafia is lynched tomorrow, then I could be quicklynched on the final day before I'm able to erase anybody.

I think this sounds a little BS-y. I don't think you

just realized

it could happen. By letting the mafia know that you're unnightkillable, you've guaranteed that a group town win is less likely to succeed.

But I guess that's pretty moot. Your claim isn't really up for argument.

My scorecard is saying that Starbuck and semioldguy are scum. With a big gap of uncertainty between the former and the latter.

[Kublai Khan]

Nice OMGUS on both myself and Semioldguy.

Vote: Kublai Khan

I feel secure in this vote.

WTF? How the hell is an OMGUS vote

at this stage in the game

a scummy move? Do you even know what OMGUS means? Do you even know how it implies scumminess?

I didn't track Jazzmyn going anywhere on the night that StrangerCoug died and I know that I'm not scum. So why the hell are you acting like you're surprised that you're my top scum suspect? Your finger-pointing (and now OMGUS-accusing) is the play of a scum who knows that they are trapped by their claim and doesn't have a good shot at victory. You've made no arguments against me, instead you're just clinging to vague implications against Brandi. At least make this game interesting by trying to get a townie lynched instead of just flailing.

Semioldguy is getting a bit of leeway as he's only scum in my view from Process of Elimination, not his words/actions. The likelyhood of Jazzmyn being scum that didn't have any night actions is super-slim at best.

Vote: Starbuck

[Kublai Khan]

Hey Crazy, now that you fullclaimed and stated that you know which claims are true and false...

What kind of weight and relevance should I give this quote:

Between Starbuck's fakeclaim and ...

[Kublai Khan]

Nice overreaction. I also love your ad hom attacks towards me. BTW, ad hom = scummy.

Again, do you even know what ad hominem means? Because I sure as hell didn't attack your character. I'm accusing you of misappropriating an argument for questionable gains.

I'm not flailing as you accuse me of. Brandi was plenty scummy before she left this game. You filled the slot. The person may have changed, but whatever the role is, did not.

I tried to give you a chance and at first, you may have had me. You no longer do.

You could easily be (and probably are) distancing from your other scum partner. You are the person I find to be the scummiest, and that's where my vote needs to be.

What does the bolded part even mean? Are you blaming me for your wishy-washy stances and inconsistent arguments and attitudes?

[Kublai Khan]

Starbuck, you're really reaching and over-defensive..

I don't know if you know what you're talking about. If you're using OMGUS as an argument to try to get my lynch at (pretty much) MYLO, then I want you to explain exactly why that's a slam dunk case.

Explain to me why a pro-town player would not return your accusations.

While you're at it... Explain why you're not coming up with a case against me. And also explain why you're appealing to emotion by pretending that I'm somehow impugning your character by concluding that you have scummy motivations for your actions.

This is mafia. Make your case. Don't whine about the kid gloves being off.

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry everyone, my home computer seems to have finally bitten the dust. So I'm a little V/LA at the moment (I'm borowing an accursed laptop to finish this game).

@Starbuck: Good job not explaining your positions on anything.

@semioldguy: Sorry, I didn't notice your post to me. My 1267 written and posted as I bolting out the door so I never noticed your comment.

I tracked Jazzmyn over Starbuck because her last post of Day 2 was one of the scummiest posts I've ever seen while Starbuck only flirts that edge between bad townie and scum. I don't see an inconclusive tracking result as being an affirmation of innocence. A scum team with two goons could have easily had the non-Jazzmyn member send the kill. The fact that seem claiming something that fit with my results

before I posted my results

means that she's either a very, very lucky scum. Or she is what she says she is. The latter being most likely at this juncture in the game.

Honestly, I don't think Starbuck-scum would try to claim Vanilla Townie before a mass-claim. Have you ever seen a game where scum didn't claim a power role if they were forced to claim before mass-claim? (discounting any case where it wasn't viable because of an open setup or something?)

Starbuck was at a game situation where she was forced to claim (i.e. she was never at L-1). so let's break it down.

• Scum that claim VT at L-1 are generally lynched.
  
• Scum that claim PR at L-1 are generally later lynched as they are locked into a clim that doesn't work/make sense later on in game.
  
• Scum that claim VT when
  not
  at L-1 generally aren't lynched and aren't locked into a claim that they have to later justify.

Ergo, Starbuck is scum.

[Kublai Khan]

KK, people that claim Vanilla Townie Day 1 are still lynched far more often than people who claim power roles. The only reason Monkey was lynched instead was because his role was ridiculously weak so it really didn't make a difference.

When someone claims VT on Day 1 at L-1, then only one person has to decide that they hate the claim and hammer. When someone claims VT on Day 1 at L-3, then other players (either town or scum) are reluctant to add the last few votes.

On the other hand if scum claims VT early on Day 1, then is followed by a ridiculously bad over-powered claim later on that same day, then scum skates effortlessly to LYLO.

I don't see myself voting for Starbuck under any condition, really. How you and Jazz expect to get a lynch on her without my vote is beyond me.

Then that makes me sad because I'm sure she's scum.

Right now, I'll admit that if you make me choose between Jazzmyn and semioldguy, then I don't know. semioldguy's analysis of all the possible outcomes are great, however his conclusions are bleak at best and crap at worst.

Specifically his conclusion that he can't trust Crazy to be telling the truth about his win condition is crap. Take Day Four (B) (3-scum scenario)... If Crazy helps town lynch scum, then day-kills scum. We've seen that Day-killing doesn't end the day. So who wins between the townie and the SK? Whoever votes first? That's pretty unfair to those with time considerations. The best way to resolve that is to allow the SK to win with someone (plus it makes sense flavor-wise).

I know I'm gaming the mod a little, but I think it's more likely for Crazy to have the win condition that he stated then for there to be a 2 person mafia group.

So Crazy's right: we need to lynch mafia today. It's likely that Crazy will day-kill town tomorrow (Day Four (B) (3-scum scenario)) to give himself the best odds for winning. So the remaining townie can either win with Crazy (50% chance of town), or hope that Crazy fucks up and kills mafia (100% chance of town winning). Much better odds than semioldguy's 2-scum theory.

[Kublai Khan]

No, Crazy won't day kill tomorrow since he wins anyway if he doesn't day kill as long as we hit mafia today. He can lose if he does day kill. Why would he risk losing over a sure thing?

Hmm... True. Still, I'll take the 50% chance of winning with Crazy by lynching mafia today. Instead of gambling on the number of scum being lower than what seems prudent. Seems to be the only way I can win this game.

[Kublai Khan]

vote: semioldguy

Let's see what happens...

[Kublai Khan]

Awesome!

Great job to Jazzmyn! Brandi also did a good job leaving me in a good spot. Was kinda mad at Neopi for stealing me damn role claim.. Could have been real bad it there was a limited tracker of some sort.

Interesting setup. That Progressive Townie role did manage to mess with scum, though it didn't make a huge difference. StrangerCoug dying on Night 2 was key to victory. We thought he was the Day-SK.

[Kublai Khan]

Bleh, the lack of a quickhammer led me to believe that Jazz/KK weren't scum together.

I think it more timing than anythign else.. Jazz saw that I was making posts in the GD/MD forums, so she took a gamble on making a vote.

Honestly, I thought you were scum, SOG, just because you seemed to ignore the possibility of my win condition on principle, and not because you thought I was lying.

Actually, I was lying. Nobody could win with me. *wince*

Huh.. I figured that if you were lying, it was probably about the NK immunity. What would happen if there was 1 town/1 mafia/1 SK and you day-killed the mafia.. Would the townie win, or.. what?

Well played, KK and Jazz. I had a hunch you were scum, KK, but I wasn't really sure at all. Jazz, that was cool how you tried to save Gorrad from being lynched, and that was a major town tell for you in my point of view.

Heh. I love that we have totally different scumtells. I would have been all over her like white on rice. We'd probably make either good or horrible scum-partners.

Fabulous! Kublai Khan, you did a fantastic job! I'd be delighted to scum-partner with you any time.

Likewise. I always enjoy scheming with intelligent players.

The set up was fun, and very new to me as I've never played in a game with roles like Progressive Townie, Innocent Child, Day SK, Inventor, or combination Watcher/Tracker before. Many thanks to the game moderator, LlamaFluff,

Hear! Hear! Inventive roles, great recruitment of players, excellent flavor. Great job LlamaFluff. I'm glad I replaced in.

[Kublai Khan]

Nice to see that I was right about who was scum.

You nailed both of us on the last day.

Actually, I'd like to apologize to you if you were truly insulted by my play. It really wasn't my intentions to hurt your feelings or permanently antagonize you in any way.

But after Crazy's claim, I realized that the mafia's best chance for victory was to lynch a townie. So, it had to be one of you or SOG. I got aggressive against you because I perceived that to be a weakness for you. I was hoping that you'd get flustered a bit by my ridiculous accusations, and I think it kinda worked because you never really did present a case against me.

Sp, no hard feelings?

[Kublai Khan]

The activity of this scumgroup really disappointed me.

While yes, you guys did win, but you did it by lurking and that's definitely against the spirit of the game in my eyes. I know Jazzmyn had a death in the family, but I did too. I'm still home in Connecticut currently, gonna be flying back to Sicily tomorrow.

No offense Starbuck, but you're starting to come across as a poor loser. Our goal was to win the game. If that means holding back from posting in order to fly under radars, then so be it. Your job as town is to prevent people from doing that.

Personally, I don't feel I lurked in this game. Due to the time constraints of my real life (2 jobs, wife is 9 months pregnant, Thanksgiving, etc.) I think I participated as much as I could. I don't usually post more than once or twice a day, so anytime you suckered me into a give and take, then that's a boon on you because I'm usually very careful about what I post (town or scum), and self-edit a lot.

And I'm sorry about the death in your family. My thoughts and well-wishes are with you.

I see some things were edited in the QT because they may have been offensive towards myself. The rules of Mafiascum extend to the QTs, and I would hope players know this.

Heh. Never noticed that. IIRC she was just frustrated after the big quote wars you guys had the previous day. Wasn't anything major and she edited herself way before the QT was made public.

Speaking of which...

Mafia QT
http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/LZVHrhcSMbXR

You're kind of a jerk for making the thread public despite the fact that we decided we didn't want it so. I understand that you're pissed about being hung out to dry after making the chamber-kill, but you have to realize that your death made Brandi/me look more townie and ultimately helped us win the game.

Yeah, you took one for the team, but when your team wins all members of that team living or dead share in that victory.. So congrats and good game.

[Kublai Khan]

The Day SK feels like he'd be better in a larger game, and should probably have had his win conditions tweaked a bit to allow for a townie victory. I can understand semioldguy's frustration at the PD he faced at the end of the game. If you did something like strip the Day-SK of his vote after he attempts a day-kill, you'd put a pretty decent restricting that forces the DAY-SK to be much more conservative and careful with his day-kill and it would allow a townie to win if it were down to 1 Town:1 SK. Or you could have allowed the Pharmacist to hand out day-protects to keep the DAY-SK's kills potentially in check.

I really liked the Progressive Townie role, but it's a hella swingy role. If ZONEACE or YankCank151 had died early on, then that would have put town at a disadvantage. Late in the game, it made curiouskarmadog one of the most powerful town characters and a big target for Crazy. If he had kept quiet about his ability and stayed stingy with his vote, he could have been the deciding factor in the game.

The Innocent Child role is fantastic, though. And StrangerCoug played it really well. If he was alive during endgame (instead of Starbuck or semioldguy), Jazzmyn & I would have been in a very tough spot.

Regarding the mafia.. I disagree with Starbuck in that I don't think they were too over-powered. It would have been a very over-powered mafia if there were cops to fool and bamboozle, but they were pretty well matched with the power roles that town had. The Innocent Child role was immune to track/watch/roleblock. The Progressive Townie fooled the Scent Sniffer on N1. The Pharmacist had potential to block their night-kills and was the biggest threat/target for the mafia. The limited watcher was only a threat/target to the mafia if a mafioso was lynched, and in that scenario, the abilities of the mafia are already restricted.

All in all, a good setup, LlamaFluff. The only thing I would have changed would be to put limitation(s) on the Day-SK.

I am poking around with my next game on the list going between a few core ideas. So watch for Disney 3 - The Invasion (right now mini, might become large), coming to forums this spring.

pre-/in for the trifecta. (time permitting, of course)