Mini 876 - Tree Stump II [Day None] (Abandoned)

[Quagmire]

Sanjay, that's not a tell.

[Quagmire]

unvote, vote Shanba

[Quagmire]

unvote vote Quagmire

Unexplaned vote on Shanba; possibly random, but that's petering out. Maybe you just feel sorrow over missing it (welcome, btw).

More to the point, Shanba's grilling TMJ is perfectly reasonable- TMJ made a stupid statement, and Shanba is seizing the opportunity. It's not as though we've got anything better to go on; and the idea that TMJ would even consider offing two townies for no reason is ridiculous. Because you haven't explained the vote, I have to assume that Shanba's more recent posts are why, unless you'd care to explain.

I don't do random votes, ever. Shanba tried to hop on a terrible bandwagon (despite what you may think, 'seizing the opportunity' is more of a scum tell than a town tell) and play it off as 'oh I'm trying to grill him,' which is obviously bullshit. His reason for voting him in the first place is a really bad reason to vote for someone; 'there's nothing better to go on right now' is not an excuse for a terrible bandwagon.

It's also stupid for you to vote for me as a punishment for not explaining my vote. How in the world is that a scumtell at all?

[Quagmire]

By the way the 'sam.samhorn' votes on page 1 or whatever are me. sam.samhorn is my alt. I accidentally posted without realizing what account I was signed in on.

[Quagmire]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

[Quagmire]

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Because you're admitting to not caring about his alignment when voting for him... it's like you're trying to apply unnecessary pressure, which isn't a townie move.

If you were a newer player, I'd give this a pass as a mafia gaffe, but an experienced townie player should know better than to push a wagon that's not scummy.

[Quagmire]

It's also stupid for you to vote for me as a punishment for not explaining my vote. How in the world is that a scumtell at all?

This is true.

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Beat me to it. Maybe Quag and I will have to agree to disagree. The whole point is discussion- that's how the town wins. In what way does withholding discussion help the town?

It's not withholding discussion that concerns me, it's the unnecessary pressure of a vote and attack on a player you admit you don't know the alignment of... I'm all for discussion, but that wasn't necessary or productive.

[Quagmire]

There's a connection here between Sudo_Nym and Shanba... one can only assume that at least one of them is town at this point. Naturally I think the townie of the two would be Sudo_Nym.

[Quagmire]

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

Why would you not vote who you think is scummy? All this talk about 'building pressure' and 'asking questions' is just bullshit masked as an excuse.

[Quagmire]

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

Why would you not vote who you think is scummy? All this talk about 'building pressure' and 'asking questions' is just bullshit masked as an excuse.

So I'll just sit around and wait for somebody to own up? What method do you believe I should use, then, if building pressure and asking questions is just bullshit?

Can you read? You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying.

[Quagmire]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

Why is that relevant? It isn't day 5.

I don't agree with his point so i wasasking how much he really believes it.

That's a terrible way to gauge whether or not I believe it. It's probably not worth a vote on day 5.

[Quagmire]

What is a VI

[Quagmire]

Also, antitown = scummy, since town has no incentive to deliberately hurt the town.

This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia.

[Quagmire]

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

That's a terrible way to gauge whether or not I believe it. It's probably not worth a vote on day 5.

Uh-huh. Something has to be a pretty damn huge scumtell to be worth a vote on day five on its own. That something isn't a huge scumtell doesn't mean it's not a scumtell.

Did you read the post where I got the original Quag quote from?
You're essentially agreeing with my point.

The quote tags are mixed up. Weren't you disagreeing with me?

[Quagmire]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Your post.

I asked the day five thing to see if you would have voted Shanba if there was something better to go on.

Oh, of course not. If there's something better to go on right now I'd go for it. But there's not.

[Quagmire]

Are you being funny, Quag? What happened to this:

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

There's a difference between voting for someone due to lack of a better option, and voting for someone while understanding there

could

be a better option.

[Quagmire]

Although I don't know why people don't think Shanba's not scummy? He's been silent since I voted for him.

[Quagmire]

Also, antitown = scummy, since town has no incentive to deliberately hurt the town.

This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia.

Out of curiousity, under what circumstances do you believe it correct for town to play to deliberately hurt the town?

Only in game-specific contexts, of which we'd see in a quirky theme game or something.

But that wasn't my point. My point was that people who use 'anti-town' as a scumtell are the ones who are terrible at mafia.

[Quagmire]

I would agree if there were anything scummy going down before that point, but there wasn't. Normally, I'd be content with waiting for everyone to get the formalities done of voting people for stupid reasons, but this time I wanted to be a bit more pro-active, and see if I could use the random voting stage and the random idiocy that comes out as a means of pressure.

Which brings me to my second point, that is, that I completely disagree with you. How is the pressure unnecessary? At the very least, it tells us somethign about Tjoe Min Ja and their knowledge/belief about the game, and by putting the pressure down helps keep them off balance and thus more honest. Less time to think = less time to overthink, more likely to actually reveal something useful.

From what I understand and have read of Tjoe Min Ja, he's a new player who doesn't quite grasp mafia just yet. As thus, his logic and posting style is going to be skewed to the point where bad logic isn't going to be a scumtell in this case... in other words, it's going to take time to figure out exactly what he's all about.

That's why I think your vote was nothing more than a masquerade. The vote in and of itself was totally unnecessary, as you could have applied pressure to him without it

and

you admitted to not knowing or caring about his alignment at the time. Now, that's not necessarily a scumtell in itself, as you could just be pulling a mafia gaffe here, but what puts me over the edge is that you felt it necessary to try and build a bandwagon on a player under the excuse of 'pressure-building' ... you're not going to be able to tell Tjoe Min Ja's alignment just by pressuring him and asking him questions yet, because you have no idea what his scumtells are yet.

And I think you're smart enough to understand this, but are just trying to pick on the easy target. Do you think your vote on him now is still justified?

[Quagmire]

Unvote

Vote: SW

What's really the purpose of this vote?

[Quagmire]

I suppose the question I wanted to ask was, "why do you want to lynch SW?"

[Quagmire]

unvote, vote: saberwolf

Mostly out of annoyance, but he's clearly being anti-town at the moment. Let's see if starting a bandwagon will interest him in the game, like he says.

This is a stupid vote. Anti-town is not scum. Apathy is not a scumtell. Stop voting for him.

[Quagmire]

If lots of people do lots of antitown things, the town loses. The only effective sanction town has to stop people being antitown is the threat of lynch.

That's total bullshit. You vote people because they're scummy, not because they're anti-town. You're promoting the idea that we should lynch townies or scum on the sole basis of acting strictly against how the town

should

act. To use a baseball analogy, it's like saying the pitcher should throw a curveball on a 2-2 count every time because that's what the pitcher should throw in that situation. Batters will be able to adjust to this.

[Quagmire]

You see, I'm not sure there, Scot. He's going out of his way to draw attention to himself by making a point of how little he's contributing. I'm really can't see any pro-WC motivation for that from either side. He probably is just bored. Problem is, that doesn't help the town, because players can't just be allowed to slide by not saying anything.

Another problem is, I've done that exact same thing probably 100 times as town. So, you can't use that as a scumtell.

[Quagmire]

For the record, I think SW is genuinely apathetic.

[Quagmire]

No, THAT's bullshit. Things that are antitown, by definition, hurt the town's chances of winning the game. If town people do scum-favouring things, scum players will be able to get away with advancing their win condition more blatantly. The only way you can stop people doing antitown things is to threaten them with lynch if they don't stop doing them.

Your analogy is bollocks, because throwing a fastball on a 2-2 count is a valid strategy for getting the batter out. It might not be the best choice, but the pitcher is still trying to get the hitter out and not give him the base. Town players acting antitown is the equivalent of intentionally walking the pitcher with the bases loaded.

You missed the point. My analogy is that you're advocating throwing the 2-2 curve every single time that situation comes up.

[Quagmire]

The problem with the way you think Fonz is that you can't just strictly break down actions into either 'pro-town' or 'anti-town' and then place one action into only one of those classifications. Mafia doesn't work like that, especially when you're using such blatant expressions like Saberwolf did.

[Quagmire]

I think Quagmire is intentionally trying to start an argument with Fonz; I can only assume he's targetting Fonz for being the most active player so far.

No, I'm trying to start an argument with Fonz because he's being dumb, and I want him to stop being dumb.

[Quagmire]

only Quagmire can answr that.

I already have.

[Quagmire]

OK, back to Shanba here, as I got sidetracked a little bit..

1

I do think my vote is justified, and I dispute the idea that picking on the easy target is a bad thing in context.

2

The basic idea behind what you're saying is that I'm (possibly) scum who was trying to build a bandwagon against Tjoe Min Ja.

3

Except that makes no sense, since there's little point in building a bandwagon as scum unless it's going to lead to a lynch or a claim.

4

How often have you actually seen this type of vote actually lead to a wagon or lynch?

The problem with your actions in their context was that the vote was completely unnecessary and unjustified... scummy, in other words.

The problem I have with this post is in 3 and 4... it's misleading to say that scum's goal is to create bandwagons that will actually lead to a lynch or claim. Instead, the scum's goal should be to look as townie as possible, in order to stay alive. That vote, while it won't lead to a lynch anytime soon, is an 'off-the-beaten-path' kind of move or logic, and I just don't think I buy it, even though those kinds of moves give me a town feeling more often than not.

In other words, 4 isn't a valid defense, because leading to a lynch isn't the ultimate goal of a scum-motivated player. Looking like a townsperson is.

Yes I could, but a vote by its very nature amplifies pressure. If you're voted, it focuses your attention on the player voting for you, and makes you more likely to respond to them. How often have you seen players just blatantly ignore quetions addressed to them? Far more often than they ignore votes, in my experience.

Now this is just a bullshit excuse. You know I'm not going to buy a 'preemptive strike' when he didn't do anything scummy to merit a vote in the first place.

Now, I agree with you that I don't have the requisite info to be able to work out Tjoe's alignment just through pressure; but then, the pressure in and of itself allows me to gain more information about him. I get at once a baseline idea of how he thinks and possible extra info which I can scan for generic scumtells (which while they may not be as accurate as meta-specific, are still perfectly legit).

Now take his response. He said that he voting people for pressure is necessary, he said that he doesn't believe there is a lot of information available day 1. That information in and of itself is useful; for example, it means we might expect him to scumhunt harder day 2 onwards, it means we can call him on it if he ever says anything about how he thinks voting for pressure is a scumtell. We also get a clarification of his thought processes about Cybele and chinaman.

It's interesting, as I'd normally be on quag's side here (particularly on thigns like "This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia."), but the basic idea I can't get my head round is that he doesn't want me to try and pressure a guy 4 pages into day 1.

I'm all for pressuring people... I believe I've said this already. The problem was that you pressured him in a scummy manner; i.e. placing a useless vote on him. It's much more likely this is an effort by you to look more towniesh as I don't see any town motives in your actions so far.

[Quagmire]

As per Shanba's overall arguments since I've started attacking him, his defenses are weak and filled with some little holes that make his action inconsistent and indefensible... it remains to be seen whether these inconsistencies are a result of scum weakly defending his vote or just a little slip up. I'm currently leaning towards the former.

[Quagmire]

No, I'm trying to start an argument with Fonz because he's being dumb, and I want him to stop being dumb.

Nope. You're being dumb. Mafia is a game of trying to work out who's scum and who's town. And the best way to start from that is thinking 'Who benefits more from that?' Clearly, someone who does something that makes a scum win more likely is more likely scum, assuming everyone is playing to their win con.

That's correct logic... however you don't practice what you preach, which is what makes you dumb. You're advocating mafia as essentially a mathematical formula when it's far from that, and your ways of determining scumtells is much different than it should be. At least, judging by your previous vote.

In fact, look on down and you make a similar argument:

It's much more likely this is an effort by you to look more towniesh as I don't see any town motives in your actions so far.

In other words, 4 isn't a valid defense, because leading to a lynch isn't the ultimate goal of a scum-motivated player. Looking like a townsperson is.

Scum have twin motives. Look town and lynch town. They have to pursue both to win.

Right, but my reasoning differs much from the way you utilize yours.

[Quagmire]

proof, Fonz:

No, THAT's bullshit. Things that are antitown, by definition, hurt the town's chances of winning the game. If town people do scum-favouring things, scum players will be able to get away with advancing their win condition more blatantly. The only way you can stop people doing antitown things is to threaten them with lynch if they don't stop doing them.

Your analogy is bollocks, because throwing a fastball on a 2-2 count is a valid strategy for getting the batter out. It might not be the best choice, but the pitcher is still trying to get the hitter out and not give him the base. Town players acting antitown is the equivalent of intentionally walking the pitcher with the bases loaded.

[Quagmire]

To answer said question:

Are you saying that by admitting that he doesn't think the behaviour is scummy, he renders his own vote useless?

If he's town, the vote is stupid and useless. If he's scum, it's a vote designed to look aggressive. I think it's the latter, because Shanba's too smart and experienced a player to make that gaffe as town.

[Quagmire]

To answer said question:

Are you saying that by admitting that he doesn't think the behaviour is scummy, he renders his own vote useless?

If he's town, the vote is stupid and useless. If he's scum, it's a vote designed to look aggressive. I think it's the latter, because Shanba's too smart and experienced a player to make that gaffe as town.

[Quagmire]

Sorry for the double posting. I'm V/LA until Saturday.

[Quagmire]

Hey I'm back

[Quagmire]

Too lazy to read Saberwolf's megapost, but a good post is coming tomorrow.

[Quagmire]

proof, Fonz:

No, THAT's bullshit. Things that are antitown, by definition, hurt the town's chances of winning the game. If town people do scum-favouring things, scum players will be able to get away with advancing their win condition more blatantly. The only way you can stop people doing antitown things is to threaten them with lynch if they don't stop doing them.

Your analogy is bollocks, because throwing a fastball on a 2-2 count is a valid strategy for getting the batter out. It might not be the best choice, but the pitcher is still trying to get the hitter out and not give him the base. Town players acting antitown is the equivalent of intentionally walking the pitcher with the bases loaded.

Again, that is no evidence that I am somehow treating mafia as a mathematical formula. Scum want to stop town winning; town want to help that end. Therefore, anyone doing something that makes a scum win more likely, and a town win less (ie, antitown) is more likely to be acting from a scum motive than a town motive, and is hence more likely scum than someone who hadn't taken the antitown action.

How is that not a formulaic way to play again?

[Quagmire]

saberwolf must be pretty pissed that despite all the effort he is putting into being the most anti-town player, half the town is outdoing him.

Personally, I could easily be persuaded to lynch saberwolf now, just to be rid of his anti-townieness.

If I weren't convinced of how stupid of a player you are I'd be down for lynching you today.

[Quagmire]

OK, like I said... I'm too lazy to read saberwolf's big post. Maybe later.

With that said, he's all but guaranteed town.

[Quagmire]

OK, like I said... I'm too lazy to read saberwolf's big post. Maybe later.

With that said, he's all but guaranteed town.

I don't follow your logic....I lurk, post one-liners, and then all of a sudden post a giant wall of text, and without even bothering to read it, all of a sudden you announce that I'm most likely town?

Without wanting to put words into his mouth, I think Quagmire's thought process here is fairly transparent.

I thought I was being fairly transparent, but if people are confused, saberwolf has been acting like a townie this entire game so far. I don't see scum going out of their way to say they are unmotivated and lazy, and then post giant analytical walls of text (I'm assuming that's what his post was).

[Quagmire]

Yeah kirb, in all my years of playing mafia that was quite possibly one of the most retarded posts I've ever seen.

[Quagmire]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

If there's something better to go on right now I'd go for it. But there's not.

??? His next post does NOT give an adequate explanation for this.

Another contradiction:

From what I understand and have read of Tjoe Min Ja, he's a new player who doesn't quite grasp mafia just yet. As thus, his logic and posting style is going to be skewed to the point where bad logic isn't going to be a scumtell in this case... in other words, it's going to take time to figure out exactly what he's all about.

Another problem is, I've done that exact same thing probably 100 times as town. So, you can't use that as a scumtell.

If scumtells are subjective, they’re subjective for everyone.

The problem with the way you think Fonz is that you can't just strictly break down actions into either 'pro-town' or 'anti-town' and then place one action into only one of those classifications. Mafia doesn't work like that, especially when you're using such blatant expressions like Saberwolf did.

This is bad logic, as anything anyone says in Mafia can be placed into one of those two categories. Give me an example of something that can’t.

You're advocating mafia as essentially a mathematical formula

Quote for me somewhere he used math in one of his arguments. The response and continuation of your baseball analogy does not demonstrate Fonzie using math.

How is that not a formulaic way to play again?

He doesn’t have to say how it isn’t, until you give a reason why it is.

So yeah, Quag is pretty scummy.

Vote: Quagmire

Wow, that last post was an uber-quotefail. -_-;

First off, the first "attack" isn't a contradiction at all, because 'nothing better to go on' and 'if there's something better i'll go for it' is at best a false dichotomy, and at worst a mentally handicapped way of thinking; your second part makes zero sense whatsoever and I have no idea what you're trying to say; the third takes my post entirely out of context and you utterly missed my point; the fourth is the same as the third; the fifth is scummy how?

[Quagmire]

I love toast

lol

[Quagmire]

I think you glossed over the entirety of my post somewhere:

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

[Quagmire]

Kirbyoshi you're really dumb.

[Quagmire]

I've explaned Shanba's 'estranged voting' probably 3 or 4 times now.

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Because you're admitting to not caring about his alignment when voting for him... it's like you're trying to apply unnecessary pressure, which isn't a townie move.

If you were a newer player, I'd give this a pass as a mafia gaffe, but an experienced townie player should know better than to push a wagon that's not scummy.

[Quagmire]

I'm going to keep voting Shanba. Nothing's really changed.

[Quagmire]

V/LA until the holidays end

[Quagmire]

Misreading someone's post isn't a scumtell.

I realize I've missed a lot of time the past couple weeks -- I'll reread since my first V/LA in the next couple days and see what I come up with...

[Quagmire]

Still prefer a sudo lynch/stump right now.

Also, we should force a player to stump quite a few days before the deadline. I wouldn't mind forcing sudo to stump right now, but just saying we should not wait until deadline, cause we can end up not getting a lynch/stump, going to night, and allowing the scum to have a night kill.

Agreed. I still think we should go with Shanba, but I'm going to reread the thread to see what else I can come up with.

[Quagmire]

Replace me out of this game please, I'm never going to be able to must up the energy to re-get back into this game.