Mini 869 - Frat Party Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[nhammen]

/confirm

I see some familiar faces here...

[nhammen]

There's no wagon on BloodCovenent yet?
But his name is spelled wrong, and he didn't get punished enough for it last game.

vote: BloodCovenent

[nhammen]

And oh god, I forgot how confusing bc and cb gets...

[nhammen]

nhammen, why aren't you voting CB? We can lynch BC tomorrow as they are obviously scum together.

Because I think that competing bandwagons give more information than one large one.

I hope your not serious with all of this.

Sure looks like he is...

There a problem with it?

You don't see a problem with it?

There's no wagon on BloodCovenent yet?
But his name is spelled wrong, and he didn't get punished enough for it last game.

vote: BloodCovenent

you are the third vote on me, i believe. GG with the wagons! I'll get it moving then too!

unvote
Vote: BloodCovenent

Hmmm... I thought I was the second. On another note... self votes, sigh.

NH, did you know you were the third vote on BC and if not, would you still have voted him if you knew you were?

No I didn't know. I used the vote count, and didn't see that you mentioned a mod error. And I actually chose BC because he had fewer votes than CB... Although, if two players had 2 votes on them, I would put a third on one rather than put a first on someone, because wagoning has become my RVS strategy.

[nhammen]

@nhammen

You have a problem with scum outing themselves?

Also, you seem to have a problem with me winning the game so quickly. Why?

I haven't seen evidence of scum outing themselves. I hope such evidence shows up. As for you winning the game immediately, that would be cool... as long as you are town.

There a problem with it?

You don't see a problem with it?

No.

I asked because you should have a problem with it. You are one of the players that he has named as scum. Why don't you have a problem with it?

[nhammen]

It was clearly a joke, I'm sure that that was fairly apparent to anyone with a sense of humor.

OK, but the question being asked was whether it was serious, and you asked if there was a problem if it was serious. And I think that there is a problem if it was serious. And so should you.

Vote: nhammen

I don't know why, but I just got a private message from the mod telling me nhammen is scum.

Aren't we supposed to be leaving the RVS, instead of going deeper into it? I guess some people can get reads from this, but I can't. This joking around is nullifying my effectiveness.

Unvote:
Vote: nhammen

Very simple solution here. We lynch Nham, and if he flips town, then DRK dies. If he flips scum, then DRK is either town, or scum that is willing to lose his partner in a gambit.

We need more votes on Nham. Anyone that does not vote him will be labeled his scumbuddy.

Wait, you are taking this seriously? So should everyone vote you because Seraphim says you are scum? I sense a contradiction here.

If he's joking and it's a scum gambit, then it will back fire and get him lynched tomorrow. If it's not, then sweet, we caught our first scum.

Two things. Why are you pushing this so hard? And why are you trying to set up a quicklynch for tomorrow?

[nhammen]

Why wouldn't I take a guilty result seriously? I don't see how you can compare that situation with sereph's calling me scum.

FoS

for that. I see no contradiction.

Why wouldn't I push for a guilty result lynch? Can you tell me why I shouldn't push for it? As for "setting" up a quick lynch, that's common practice to lynch a fake claiming player. Have you not seen this before in other games?

I was working under the assumption that it was just as much of a joke as Seraph's "claim". In which case, pushing for a quicklynch on a player that made the joke is a pretty scummy thing to do. You said, "if he's joking" that we should quicklynch him. You quicklynch for a false claim, yes. But not for a RVS joke.

BloodCovenent

IMO, BC had the scummiest reaction to my saying nham was scum. His first post following the mysterious PM was the following:

Unvote:
Vote: nhammen

Very simple solution here. We lynch Nham, and if he flips town, then DRK dies. If he flips scum, then DRK is either town, or scum that is willing to lose his partner in a gambit.

We need more votes on Nham. Anyone that does not vote him will be labeled his scumbuddy.

I see a few things wrong with this.

1. He immediately assumes I did actually receive said PM, despite the fact that we were still in the RVS and I'd done quite a bit of messing around. By assuming this, he gets to lynch nham and me afterwards for causing the mislynch if he's town. This hinges largely on nham's alignment.
2. The way he calls for the lynch smells of quicklynch, as if he wants to make sure nham is killed before I come in and say I was joking or someone comes in with some sense and says not to lynch nham.

This is exactly what I saw too. And not only did all of this occur after you were messing around a lot in the RVS, but other players had made similar jokes in the RVS. I really don't get how anyone could have missed that it was a joke. It was obvious to me.

How do you know BC wasn't still joking from the RVS?

That looked like an actual argument to me, rather than just saying, "oh, he's scum!" like Seraph and DRK did.

[nhammen]

so you think that we should lynch BC because of something that kitty said that wasnt true and therefore is irrelevant to the game?

honestly he had the correct mindset.

if kitty wasn't just saying that to get us out of the RVS,

we could lynch the "scum" if not, we lynch kitty tommorow, because what good would a townie have at randomly pointing a finger and saying they're scum.

his logic is correct.

he assumed you were serious. thats the only reason he's almost getting lynched right now?

-not backing BC lynch-

After reading through all of the responses, it looks like he was the

only

player that "assumed" that DRK was serious upon his first post. And, as the two previous posters have said, even if he was serious, he should have been pushing for a regular lynch, rather than a quicklynch.

BTW, in case it isn't obvious, my vote is not random anymore.

[nhammen]

A question to everyone, first of all.

I think it's very important that you answer this truthfully.

When you first read DRK's claim of a guilty on nhammen, what was your gut reaction?

I thought it was obviously a joke in the same vein as yours, and was slightly annoyed.

BC obviously thought that DRK was serious about it. So serious, in fact, that he wanted a lynch almost immediately. Generally when someone claims a guilty, everyone wants to be on that wagon. Scum because their partner is generally about to be bussed which is a great wagon to distance yourself with or town because well, lynching scum is the point of the game, right?

However, this was not the right play in this situation which is why I think BC is most likely town. This leads into WIFOM, of course, but I believe a scum player would have thought twice about declaring his intent to lynch on what possibly may have been a post made in jest.

My assumption was that BC's whole "DRK is serious" bit was an act, which could be wrong.

Taranski might be scum based on his reactions and his weird Lyncher/Traitor speculation. Honestly, I hate setup speculation based on erratic play. Scum always look for shades of grey when it's clear cut: town vs anti town. Lynch the anti town, save the town. It's not that difficult.

My problem with this, is if Taran is scum, and DRK is town, why would scum-Taran want to put doubt onto DRK? Scum would follow the quicklynch, and then quicklynch the liar next day. So Taran's play makes no sense as scum either. I think this is just bad play no matter how you slice it.

nhammen is the straight man. Mafia is serious shit dude and even with the monkey in his avatar, he just oozes a "don't fuck around" attitude. While I prefer to remain casual, he really manages to remain calm even if he doesn't completely understand what's going on.

I'm totally sigging this.

GROINHAMMER. I don't like your opening post in the real game. I don't BC is a good place to put your vote at all for a number of reasons that I have alright stated. Not to mention that your post is so general it's funny. Funnily scummy. Oh and your case on BC is rather terrible. The self-vote is not a scumtell and I love people who try to argue that it is. And how was he rolefishing, WTF?

Twice, but once was a joke... I think.

CB. Claim or die.

^ Joke

show me the confirmation. If you were a day cop, and truly investigated me, then you would not be calling me confirmed scum.

^ Not so much. And the reason I think he's faking believing DRK. He sees one that he believes is not true, but assumes the other is true?

Taranski looks scummier and scummier. If you were fishing for reactions by bringing up third-party that are unlikey to show up in a game, please analyze these reactions plz. Also, coaching Groiny? Also, following GROINY's lead on BC? Bah.

I looked back at Taran's posts, and I can actually agree with the part about coaching...

fhqwhgads who I am simply calling Gads is even more useless than Groinhammer. The game has started, read the game or GTFO.

To what are you referring?

Also, BC is so town that I am in physical pain from the amount of town he is exuding. Seriously.

I'm not seeing the same thing as you.

I didn't FoS CB for FB activity. That was what he said I FoSed him for.

I actually noticed this. Your FOS was for seeing him logged into mafiascum, which is something I

hate

. I saw Mastin doing this in another game and it was very annoying to read. However, his attempt to make it look like something else is either bad scum play or misunderstanding the reason for your FOS.

Seraphim's 165 seems almost suspiciously pro-BC. In my eyes, Seraphim defended him as much or more than he defended himself. I could really see that post as either attempted buddying or defense of a scumbuddy whom he saw as being in trouble.

I slightly agree with this. It is only slightly, because defenses can be pro-town too, and you seem to be discounting any possibility of a pro-town defense of BC.

you wanted him to "confirm," whether or not he actually had received a guilty result. If that were a true scenario, you would expect him to claim, or at least give something out that was about his role. And that information isn't necessarily needed to be discussed among the town. The only thing that should occur, is a bandwagon onto said guilty result, and a claim would follow. Maybe depending on the claim, we would lynch the player or not. If that guilty player flipped town, then we would have lynched DRK.
-By asking if he was serious, you would know that he was an information role. And as scum, you know that's bad.

Bad BC! Bad! By not asking, he is letting either a scum role push a lynch based on something that could be a joke, or letting a town role be responsible for a lynch against town. Asking this was not scummy at all.

Again, ignoring the possibility

I was faking and looking for a quicklynch.

Possible scum slip?

Taking out of context?

How do you know BC wasn't still joking from the RVS?

-Because I wasn't.
-How else should I have taken a claimed guilty?

It looked too much like a joke to take it that seriously.

Nham

-Show me where I stated that I wanted a quicklynch.
-you give false information saying that I was pushing for a quick lynch here, I never stated that I wanted a quick lynch. Just a lynch. you and Tar are both guilty of this.
-you missed it as a joke? Maybe that's just bad play on your part.

-

Anyone that does not vote him will be labeled his scumbuddy.

This looks alot like pushing for a quicklynch to me!
-The fact that I saw it was a joke when you say so earlier in your post looks like it wasn't bad play.

- Please show me where I said we couldn't discuss the lynch candidate.

Same post above.


Ugh! This is getting too long! Why did nobody post over the weekend? That's when I have time, but there was no new content to respond to... Too busy right now.

[nhammen]

Um, actually, I could have posted on Monday too. But I didn't want to take the time to respond to Seraph's post at that time. And now I've made a big wall... So the cycle continues.

[nhammen]

Your FOS was for seeing him logged into mafiascum, which is something I hate.

Yea...not the first time I've seen someone say that. What's wrong with bringing something like that up?

So what if he was logged in. Maybe he wasn't looking at a game. Maybe it was a pm, or the mafia discussion forums or something else. This is bringing something from outside the game into the game, and we have no way of telling whether or not it is relevant.

Saberwolf replaces groinhammer effective immediately.

hi saber! This is looking like a familiar group.

Yea Seraphim, I think your case on DRK is fairly lacking. It does seem like you took a whole bunch of nulltells and tried to use them to make a case against DRK.

Just wondering, do all 4 of you guys on BC still think he is scum? Personally, BC is still on my list of suspicions but not as high up as before.

Yes, I still believe he is scum. Seraph is looking a bit scummy to me too, but I have to remember bad cases do not always imply scum.

[nhammen]

Wait... Nham, you think that I was faking my reaction to DRK's claim? That's BS.

Every other player's first reaction so far was to think DRK's claim was a joke. You are the only player that assumed it was real from the start.

Again, ignoring the possibility

I was faking and looking for a quicklynch.

Possible scum slip?

Taking out of context?

Really? How so? And why are you defending him?

I'm not defending him. But you are obviously taking his statement out of context. In its original context, it read like this:
(ignoring the possibility I was faking) and (looking for a quicklynch)
You changed it to this:
ignoring the possibility (I was faking and looking for a quicklynch)

-Let me get the record straight. Sereph's "claim" or whatever, was not at all in the same league as DRK's.

Looked the same to me.

[nhammen]

@nhammen, why should I vote for bloodcovenent?

His reaction to DRK's joke claim is very scummy:

Unvote:
Vote: nhammen

Very simple solution here. We lynch Nham, and if he flips town, then DRK dies. If he flips scum, then DRK is either town, or scum that is willing to lose his partner in a gambit.

We need more votes on Nham. Anyone that does not vote him will be labeled his scumbuddy.

He seems to be pushing for a quicklynch on me here. Then he says this:

show me the confirmation. If you were a day cop, and truly investigated me, then you would not be calling me confirmed scum.

Followed by this:

hmmm, drk, can you confirm that you are being legit and not fuckin around cuz of RVS

dude, quit role fishing.

This post should not be answered, and it is scummy as hell.

Seems like he's a good bet for scum on day 1.

And you are defending him, by giving examples of what it truly could have meant. When if fact, it could also be a scum slip, you tend to over look that. Why? Either way, it says that he's looking for a quicklynch. And that's scummy IMO.

No, he was saying YOU were pushing for a quicklynch... And it was obvious that this is what he was saying. I'm not sure whether or not you not seeing this is scummy.

[nhammen]

It's not scummy to post your suspicions, but giving your entire thoughts (including town reads) only helps mafia manipulate the game via NKs, etc. They can frame or try to clear a player if they know how everyone feels about each other.

But what I find interesting is that, along with my top 3, Seraphim is joining you all by voting for DRK. I may need to give and/or take a person on/off my list. In a nutshell, I don't think it's wrong to include Seraphim in my suspect list.

However, he did not join in voting Blood, after DRK accused him. And there are more votes on Blood. So your note that Seraph is wagoning (it looks like that is the accusation you are going after) depends upon blood being scum. Now, I agree that there is a high possibility of that (otherwise I wouldn't be voting him), but that doesn't mean anything about Seraph at this point cuz we don't know. And I know your argument never mentioned blood, but the fact that Seraph did not join the blood wagon means that your argument about Seraph's wagoning DRK doesn't apply so much.

Sigh about the string of "nothing to say here" posts.

[nhammen]

Everyone voting DRK is suspect.

Does this mean anything? You've said something similar before. Do you think scum are driving that wagon? What about the other people on it? If the arguments in favor of it are so awful, why would scum join support of it instead of BC?

You know something I don't? If BC is town, I still keep my suspects high on the list. Just means there are 3 others for me to look at.

I am implying is that BC-scum and his buddies are trying to create a wagon on DRK so that BC's wagon is rivaled in size.

As has been asked before, what if BC turns up town? Then why would scum be supporting DRK lynch rather than BC lynch?

Starbuck, nhammen, OGML, Nachomamma8, and Seraph have been prodded.

Been busy with tests and presentation. Am done now, and have returned!

[nhammen]

I suggest we have a look at BC's scumlist. I have my disagreements with the players he listed, but I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about it. Also would love to hear from our replacements.

I disagree with him about Taran, but I can see DRK and Kise as scum.

Kise never answered this yesterday:

Everyone voting DRK is suspect.

Does this mean anything? You've said something similar before. Do you think scum are driving that wagon? What about the other people on it? If the arguments in favor of it are so awful, why would scum join support of it instead of BC?

You know something I don't? If BC is town, I still keep my suspects high on the list. Just means there are 3 others for me to look at.

I am implying is that BC-scum and his buddies are trying to create a wagon on DRK so that BC's wagon is rivaled in size.

As has been asked before, what if BC turns up town? Then why would scum be supporting DRK lynch rather than BC lynch?

[nhammen]

Wow! When I left there was no activity, and now more than a page in one day! Sweet!

you vote hop like crazy, and I don't like it. I personally think you're just looking for something that will stick.

FoS: Dragonfly13

I need to ISO you before I decide on turning that into a vote.

He kept his vote on blood for almost all day yesterday. How is this vote hopping? Although, the fact that I do not have a very clear memory of his actions does mean I need to look over him. It could be a sign that he has been avoiding attention. Or it could be a sign that my memory sucks... As I said, I need to look over this.

aww and i was coming back just in time. Could have avoided that prod

Are you deliberately trying to post just enough to avoid prods? We need more activity than that.

Vote: nhammen

May I ask why?

You pretty much just said that you want me to jump in and be blind. To not post an analysis/suspicions of what I think and feel of how everyone else has behaved and acted thus far.

So how is the fact that I'm working on my analysis and posting what I think anti-town? When you are sitting here telling me that I shouldn't even post what I think.

That is not what she is saying at all. She is saying that you aren't posting what you think. You are just posting a recap what has happened in the game. Or at least, that is what her accusation is, as I understand it.

in stark contrast to nhammen's post referencing the guilty investigation. It's the kind of response that feels very forced, and is the 'appropriate' way for scum disbelieving the claim, but mildly anxious nonetheless to deal with it. Play it off as a joke, and wedge it between a lot of other information in a post, to downplay it's importance.

Hmmm... so, this explains your vote at least. I am curious though, as to what response you would have deemed acceptable here. Because I would think that any response to drk's gambit could be perceived as scummy. Seems like you are asking me if I've stopped beating my wife yet.

BTW, if you read through this game, this is the way most of my posts look.

This is also in conjunction with nhammen's one-vote day, where he rode a second-post BloodCovenent vote through to lynch. Seems like a REALLY safe place to drop a vote, and not have to deal with much suspicion. I have good feelings about this.

I thought he was scummy. That is all. And it seems that a large portion of the town agreed with this.

[nhammen]

I would like to point out that Hoopla never answered this question:

I am curious though, as to what response you would have deemed acceptable here. Because I would think that any response to drk's gambit could be perceived as scummy. Seems like you are asking me if I've stopped beating my wife yet.

This would seem like he is avoiding the question. However Hoopla's vote count analysis is pro-town, so I'm not seeing him as scum. But I would still like to know what would have satisfied you about that whole thing.

@ Hoopla: Another comment. You seem to have only mentioned DRK for how awful the wagon on him was. What are your opinions about DRK himself?

Nhammen: Exact same case as Kise really. HE stands out even more though, cause when I played with him as town, he really shone as our leading scumhunter, and was the first one NKed. I'm not seeing that from him here, so same deal.

That's because all of the jokes ruined my scumhunting strategies! I can only scumhunt when people take the game seriously. And because of that I never really got into the game, so I didn't start scumhunting even after the jokes stopped. But I need to get into this, so I'm going to do so now.

And I completely disagree, and would strongly suggest scum are more inclined to find a safe place to store their vote, and experienced scum would churn up the waters and hop. This reverts back to my previous reasoning, that if they don't conciously realize they're doing this or don't think they'll get called on it, then it is a reliable scumtell. I genuinely believe one of Kise/nhammen is scum.

I would like to point out that every time I have successfully caught scum, one of the tells they gave off was vote-hopping.

I can see understandable reasons why he was lynched. But day 1 lynches like him, zwet, DGB, Exalt etc. are often great scumtraps - so it was just, if only because scum have outed themself more than they would have liked from it. Seriously, we have great information to go off today.

Especially considering that we had a competing lynch in DRK. I'd be willing to bet at least one scum on each of the two wagons, unless DRK is scum. But Kise's idea that all of the players on DRK's wagon were suspicious because they weren't on BC's wagon, and then saying they're still suspicious if BC is town is really bugging me.

I really didn't like her buddying up to the dead townie.

I remember someone being accused of this in Day Night. I need to check how that resulted. This may be a reliable tell.


And finally, sorry to hear about that, Starbuck...

[nhammen]

As promised, I ISOed Dragonfly. He hasn't done much. I don't know if this means anything. But I did see that his only vote, other than his random vote was blood. Which leads me to

FOS: Hoopla

. You attacked both me and Kise for only voting for blood, but Dragonfly did the same thing. DRK did the same, except he had multiple different random votes. Groinhammer only voted for blood and when saberwolf replaced him, he unvoted and revoted blood in the same post. Technically, saberwolf has been on the wagon longer than me. What is so special about me and Kise?

I could see both as town, if I had to pick a scummier I'd maybe lean Kise, it's really hard to say. I'd play it more to not who I think is scum, but more who of the two would I rather keep around in case they are both town.

unvote; vote: nhammen

May I ask what changed your mind?

Woah, careful with that misrep. I said I found canada suspicious for his selective comments. Don't think I explained why I found fhq suspicious but it was due to his coasting at the start of the game, then later for WIFOM & shooting down possibilities, yet listing his own speculations. As for Seraph, he was pushed into my suspect list after someone else asked me about him and his request for scumlists.

I guess I misunderstood this:

I am implying is that BC-scum and his buddies are trying to create a wagon on DRK so that BC's wagon is rivaled in size.

It really looks like you are trying to find reasons for them to be scummy after voicing suspicions of them.

vote: Kise

[nhammen]

I'd prefer that you would. I have had too many players in my games that have voted for me with reasons that they wanted to reveal later. Every one turned out to be scum. It seems to be the surest tell there is. So I'd really like to know.

[nhammen]

OK, fine. Will you reveal the reasons before the end of the day?

[nhammen]

OK, I've been using some information without revealing all of it. Every scum I have caught is only 3. So when I say "every scum I've caught" I am over-exaggerating. And two of them gave off practically every tell there is (and half the town still disagreed with me). Now that I think of it, I'm not sure if EtR voted without reasons in Stars Aligned. I would have to look back.

[nhammen]

I don't expect a pro-town player to play it off as a joke, rather, they'd address it with a bit more certainty, knowing the result is obviously bogus. It just sounds like a safe response to something you should know to be false.

But it was obviously a joke. And if I remember correctly, I was somewhat irritated that all this joking was ruining my scumhunting.

Nhammen, Do you honestly see this many town aligned players with D1 play with this?

No, I agree that scum were on that wagon. But because all of the players on that wagon had similar voting patterns, it is difficult to spot who is scum and who isn't. Kise's other comments incriminate him to my eyes, so I'll go with that for now. Hopefully, someone will give easier to read tells...

That is a ridiculously small sample size, that could be completely luck based. Have you ever been wrong when you've used this tell before, as well?

Actually, twice. Both in the same game. In Day Night Mafia, I had two players that I had spotted this tell on, and both were town. Both of my targets in that game were town, but everyone said I was doing an incredible job scumhunting... Yes it could be luck based. This is why I clarified my statements about this. But I can't just ignore the games I've played in the past just because this is only my 6th game, and only the 4th I've been active in.

[nhammen]

What good did your "over-exaggerating" do you and why did you bother exaggerating in the first place?

It wasn't intentional over-exaggerating. That is why I immediately clarified the meaning of my statements upon being called out on it.

[nhammen]

Ok, so I had three reasons for my vote:

1. to see who questioned it and who let it slide

2. to see how hoopla would react to it and whether she joined me on the BW

3. whether nhammen would OMGUS me or vote for Kise.

Wow! That's just dumb. As has been pointed out, your 2 makes no sense, because hoopla was ALREADY voting for me. Thus, your 2 is just made up. Your 3 looks like you are tailoring later data to fit your view of me as scummy. And this is exactly what ground did in my last game. And he was scum. I would vote saberwolf, but as has been previously pointed out, this could just be a small sample size. But I want to hear everyone else's views on saber's explanation, to see if this is just confirmation bias for one of my scumtells.

@ Hoopla: What did you think of my vote explanation?

Flimsy. Would you vote Kise with me?

That's one person. Its like you read my mind.

I also don't like the excuse nhammen gave of jokes throwing him off his game...like, come on bud, are you claiming you've never encountered jokes before ITT? You should know how to roll with it by now and not let it affect your game. In fact, knowing you, you should of been able to pick out certain jokes and show us how they are scumtells.

You are giving me far too much credit. I was expecting the RVS to be over at that time, not another random vote to be thrown out there. It caught me off guard.

[nhammen]

Damn TVTROPES!!!! Anyways, I have escaped. And I am back. Also, Thanksgiving didn't help. And spending all 5 hours I was available on MS setting up my first modded game didn't help either.

nhammen: what would be my motivation, as scum, to vote for you without a reason, and then draw attention to it?

I don't know, but I've seen scum do it before. I never asked them their motivation. Also, why would town do it either? Also, "why would scum do" is the definition of WIFOM.

I don't have a problem with the reasons given this for the vote, but I'm not so sure the conclusion is solid. If SW is suspicious of Kise, it's a bit odd for him to be suspicious of nham for being suspicious of Kise.

OK, so that's another person that doesn't see problems with this rationale. OK. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

After reading certain things, I've come to the obvious conclusion of a saberwolf, Starbuck, nhammen scum team. Discuss.

I don't see how you could get saberwolf nhammen out of this. Do you think saber's attacks were bussing?

1. How was BC pushing for a quicklynch?

We need more votes on Nham. Anyone that does not vote him will be labeled his scumbuddy.

Looks like a quicklynch to me. Did you even read the posts you quoted? The answers are all right there.

2. BC is completely right with his questioning of being called "confirmed scum". How is questioning where the confirmation came from in any way scummy?

Ummm, how about because it isn't? What's scummy is asking about confirmation AND THEN ATTACKING PEOPLE THAT DO THE SAME THING. And how about next time you quote a post of mine, you read the post instead of taking it out of context. Answering questions that you clearly had the answers to was just about the most annoying thing that anyone has ever asked me to do on this site.

As has been asked before, what if BC turns up town? Then why would scum be supporting DRK lynch rather than BC lynch?

First off, WIFOM. Second off, the answer to that question is distancing.

OK, I see the point about it being WIFOM. But at that point in time, Kise's entire argument in favor of most of these players being scum was that they were on DRK's wagon. If they were scum, wouldn't some of them support a BC lynch? Isn't that why there are players arguing that most of the scum were on the BC wagon RIGHT NOW? So if BC was town (which he was) then Kise's whole argument fell apart. So, I was asking what Kise's opinion of these players would be. And his answer is why I believe he is scum. Also, how is the answer to that distancing? I don't understand what you are implying.

So what's the case on Kise? I really didn't see one other than Lynch All Lurkers.

Because he was one of the scummiest players on the BC wagon. Because he claimed that scum were pushing DRK's wagon, which meant that most of the players on DRK's wagon were scum, but they were still scum even if BC was town. Because after BC flipped, Kise retconned his reasons for them to be scummy.

[nhammen]

Mod, I found an error.

You are not listing me as voting Kise. In fact, I should have been voting Kise since page 17. Unfortunately, this would mean that Kise has already been hammered. The player that most recently put a vote on Kise would most likely not have done so if I had been listed in the votecount. So, what happens now?

[nhammen]

Oh, OK... I thought someone said he was at -1 already. This works better. Kise, claim please.

[nhammen]

Someone hammer!!

[nhammen]

I was following this game the whole way. I have to say, the scum played brilliantly. You all RBed me N1, when I had targeted Kise. But it didn't change anything. People really should have payed attention to Hoopla's "1 of DRK and Seraphim are scum" statement. If you notice, it was a scum player that said that everyone should not look into the reasons for the scum kills. Hoopla, DRK, and I were all suspicious of Seraphim and DRK and I were suspicious of dragonfly.