Mini 861: Hellsing Mafia - (Game Over!)

[Netopalis]

GL, all.

Let's chuck the list of names into my random vote-inator...

Random vote: Netopalis

Aww, crap. Let's try it again...

Vote: Doombunny9

Nice name, BTW.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Sorry, long day, I meant

Unvote, Vote: Doombunny9

[Netopalis]

Unvote: Doombunny9

I don't really see a reason for a bandwagon yet. Also: I need to catch up a bit.

[Netopalis]

Hey, sorry, I keep forgetting about this game...One sec, let me reread, then I'll post some thoughts.

[Netopalis]

Hmm. That was helpful. *eyeroll*

I'm afraid that I really wasn't able to learn much from that readthrough. Realistically, I don't feel that *any* actions taken thus far are particularly scummy or not. Saberwolf's postings may be slightly questionable, but I don't get a scumread from them. Same thing with Archon. Doombunny is hilarious, and I also definitely get a pro-town read from him - he seems more concerned with advancing the game than anything else which is, in my experience, a pro-town attitude.

A side note to everybody here - I am generally pretty crappy at scumhunting until there's a bit more out there. I find the whole process of random voting in order to out scum to be a bit like divination through the use of bird entrails - I just don't get it. Thus, I should be a lot more helpful later on...

[Netopalis]

The crap? You really need to give more explanation than that. What do you read as scummy in my post?

[Netopalis]

(Just a side note in regards to my post: The lack of content/scumhunting NOW does not preclude such discussions later. I'm just really bad at the opening parts of the game and I'm choosing to identify that now before it causes trouble for the game)

[Netopalis]

Uh, yeah. Not seeing why my posts are so inflammatory. The simple fact of the matter is that until Amished started talking, nobody had really said much of substance to go on. Now, the question is whether Amished's posts are stupidity or scumidity.

[Netopalis]

Also, 144 was super scummy enough for make me vote for him first above you and sabre. I don't care how many votes were on him or becoming on him at the time.

You still have not said why this is super scummy. You just keep saying that it is. So, I don't have any suspicions...big whoop, ya wanna fight about it?

[Netopalis]

Top 3 suspects....

The only one that I honestly have a case on is Amished. Not an OMGUS, just an attack on his erratic play.

1) Amished

The other two are rather tenuous and gut-based....so no real backup of these ones. Also, I reserve the right to change them for little to no reason whatsoever.

2) Kikuchyo
3) Shotty to the Body


Wish I had more to say on those. I guess to understand my mentality, you need to understand that I'm a law student. I hate attacking people until I have a reason. Once I have a reason, I am rather relentless in my attacks. I do abide by the standard, though, of innocent until proven guilty. My best gameplay is generally late-game, although I can be useful in the midgame too - essentially, when there is a lot of information about connections between players and night actions.

[Netopalis]

Both as a way of sparking discussion for the town and as a way of answering a question that I have as a newbie to more advanced games, I have a question for everyone.

I have an incredibly improbable role. You might be able to call it a power role...it is extremely useful, but not in the usual way. That being said, if I claim it under threat of lynch, I am almost positive that nobody will believe said claim. Is claiming worthwhile or no? Normally, I wouldn't ask this question, but it's a claim that I think is practically unprecedented and *may* have been in the Worst Roles Ever thread....

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I'm rather new and not familiar with bad role strategy. It is along those same lines. However, I would like to hear other players' opinions first.

[Netopalis]

Alright. Guess I might as well at this point. I'm a Miller NK-Immune One-shot vig. The vig is one-shot, the rest of the roles are permanent.

[Netopalis]

Night vig. And I've been debating claiming since the early game.....I knew that this role was better out in the open, but I wasn't sure how it would be accepted as a D1 claim without lynch pressure...But if I claim under lynch-pressure, there's no way anyone would believe that.

[Netopalis]

Flavor: Alexander Anderson. Note that I've only watched the first episode, so I don't know much about him....

[Netopalis]

Time of day, I think. People getting off of work.

[Netopalis]

Well, it's good to know that the flavors match the roles. That info may come in useful later.

[Netopalis]

I realize that the fact that it's in the initial post does make my claim less believable. However, I can only work with what I'm given. Perhaps this also means that we need to be expecting Jesters, Revivers, Etc. In fact, that may be a thinly veiled open setup...

[Netopalis]

Amished - that'll have to be decided about every single claim, as I can almost guarantee that in a game of this type, the mafia was given safeclaim names.

[Netopalis]

Well, this is my first theme game, but I've read that they can be very vulnerable to massclaims?

[Netopalis]

Uh...You're right, I absolutely don't. Is it a reference to a previous game?

[Netopalis]

Looker, to explain my action, basically I knew that if I claimed that role after being pressured into a claim-or-die situation, the town would find it to be far too convenient of a claim to be reasonable. Still, I knew that with the NK immunity, it was probably a good idea to wait until later. As the day dragged on, though, I began to realize more and more that the first concern outweighed the second, so I decided to claim earlier rather than later.

[Netopalis]

To what are you referring, Saberwolf?

[Netopalis]

Amished - I was primarily talking about the stuff earlier where you were attacking people without providing a very solid reasoning behind it. One example is you attacking me for not specifying anybody that I found scummy, although you've made similar attacks. I just find that to be rather spastic, almost.

[Netopalis]

No, but I only need to find your supposed scumtells to be spurious to find your play erratic.

Also: I really want to stress since a few people have just called me a vig that I am a ONE-SHOT vig. Just so you all know.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Also: In response to when I will be using that vig, I am going to use it at a time when:

A) I think I have a reasonable case against someone and
B) When I don't think the mafia will be expecting me to use it.

A because I don't think that there's a lot of value in a speculative vig and B because I want to make sure that there are multiple kills that night in order to confirm my role.

[Netopalis]

I hadn't considered B. A, I think, is entirely likely....My role gives me the potential to essentially develop into a confirmed innocent who can't be done away with, depending on the other roles in the game.

[Netopalis]

Well, I'm going to go ahead and take a self-vig N1 off the table for two reasons. Firstly, it wouldn't actually do anything because I'm NK-immune and secondly, it takes options away from the town. You can trust me or not, and I'll generally use my option at the discretion of the town, but that's just ridiculous.

As for the thing about a confirmed town, I see what you're saying...I wasn't aware that SKs were commonly NK-immune (Like I said, rather new to the site and I haven't played a great deal with certain roles).

[Netopalis]

Two things. First, I was at L2 for lurking and it is likely that the votes would have been removed upon more posting on my part.

Second, I was getting my information from the wiki. The wiki does not include a discussion of the D1 claim, although there is one sentence in there that hints at it. I didn't know that it was an established "rule", though.

[Netopalis]

Actually, it only discusses it in light of a death miller, which I am not.

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I just reread the article...It's not the part about the death miller, it's about the uninformed miller.

[Netopalis]

Hey, guys, sorry, I've been rather delinquent...I'll catch up today and make a post.

[Netopalis]

Ok...Yes, I am one-shot. The one-shot only applies to the vig, not to the NK immunity.

I'm not going to use my vig N1. I think that the arguments for me using it are rather weak and flippant - Yeah, sure, we lose a townie. Big whoop. I honestly can't believe I'm hearing that....It makes 10X more sense to use it later when there is more information and when I have a reasonable suspicion of another player. In general, day 1 lynches are crapshoots anyway.

My thoughts on players:
Amished - I think that he is drastically reducing the complexity of this game to absurdity. There is no freaking way that we can kill 3 townies a night and win this game. Sure, the game is balanced. That also means that there's a reasonable chance that non-scum factions will win as well - being balanced doesn't mean a cakewalk for the town.

Furthermore, I don't care much for his attackish nature. He seems rather like a berserker, charging into battle and cleaving at who he can, but I think that some of the attacks are more spurious than others. I particularly think that his case on DB is rather weak - I'm not saying that DB is necessarily town or scum, just that I don't see a very good case against him for a lynch today.

In re: the Sabre lynch: Seems like a reasonable choice, as we'd lynch him if he wasn't being replaced. Let's just save everyone the trouble, especially since his position looks very scummy to me.

I'm getting a fairly strong town-read on Chaco and Forbiddanlight, more of a gut than anything else.

Looker is another decent possibility for the lynch, but given the two, I think I'd rather go ahead and get rid of Saber for convenience's sake.

[Netopalis]

In that case I might make an exception, because I would have a decent reason for using it. While I think the link is tenuous, it would be extremely valuable to catch scum earlier. I'd have to think hard about it....That being said, I'd rather not say in thread definitely who and when I'm targeting, just in case of a mafia doctor.

[Netopalis]

Kik - The only reason that I'm a bit less concerned about the lynch vs. the vig is that I've found that generally day 1 lynches aren't that accurate. I find that their value is more in the information that they provide than in a tool to eliminate scum. Killing saber gives us information. Also, lynches are a renewable resource, while I only have one shot - the question is then when to use that one shot.

[Netopalis]

Amished, if we're not going to give any credence to claims, what's the point in asking for them?

[Netopalis]

If it was just about anybody *but* ABR, I'd ask him to claim. As such, I'll leave it up to him.

For the record, I really, really loathe this style of logic. That being said, based on the results the last time I tried to bring something like this up, I really shouldn't press the matter. I just wanted to note a standing objection to it.

[Netopalis]

Well, it IS implied that there's a Jester in this game...That being said, this also could be scum hoping to capitalize on that fact. Personally, I think that we're better off lynching him, even with the off-chance that he is a jester.

[Netopalis]

...but now that they know it'll be an NK, I don't know how effective it will be, as I'm almost POSITIVE that there's going to be some sort of doc/NK immune ability out there on a non-town side.

[Netopalis]

No, I think it's perfectly reasonable. Thematically, there should be a metric ton of killing roles in this game, balanced by a metric ton of preventative/immunity roles.

[Netopalis]

Albert, please read and respond to posts . I know it's useless to ask this, but I guess I'll keep futilely asking for it.

[Netopalis]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

[Netopalis]

You see, there's a problem with me definitively saying that I'll kill looker tonight. You say that if they protect, we just lynch tomorrow, and that's true. However, that gives scum the ability to waste *two* town kills, not just one. How about this: I will roll a 4-sided die and will kill Looker on the day matched by that die, provided he has not already been lynched?

[Netopalis]

*sigh* Fair enough, I guess. I'll shoot him tonight.

[Netopalis]

I will post mine pending a reread tomorrow based on the claims that we have.

[Netopalis]

Honestly, I just like honestly peppering my honest statements with the word "Honestly." Honest!

[Netopalis]

Nah, I was actually going to counterclaim mod....Kairyuu must be mafia or must have a good reason for falseclaiming it.

[Netopalis]

Honestly, can't you take a joke? What is it with you and jumping onto people for joke posts? Seriously, lighten up a bit. It seems to me that you are willing to jump on anybody for anything - this works in theory, but in practice it ends up catching more town than scum.

[Netopalis]

No, but you're not supposed to jump down the throat of anyone who makes a remotely lighthearted comment. But nevermind. Every post I make now will be morose and foreboding.

[Netopalis]

Ok...having reread, I have to say that my best guess as to scum is Konowa. My problem with his posts is not so much activity but general fluffiness and lack of reasoning behind some of his assertions. I also find his seeming flippancy about a possible extra town loss on N1 to be highly suspect. Of course, this is all secondary to Looker, and I wholly support the lynch movement towards him.

That being said, I am a bit nervous about the suddenness of the town's flip on this matter. We've had several players make good posts with valid reasons as to why the town should lynch rather than vig at night, yet the town continued along that path until SSK posted. Then, all of a sudden, there's this huge outpouring of support for the idea. Why? This makes me rather suspicious, and while I don't know that it's scummy, I think that it's at least a symptom of a cliquish town which is evaluating posts based on who is posting rather than the content of those posts.

[Netopalis]

Oh, Doom, sorry, forgot to answer your question. I would say it would depend on how Looker flips. Of course, we will have to follow up on any connections and posts that implicate defense of each other, but I don't know that I would automatically say that you should be the next lynch.

[Netopalis]

Konowa, you have made 22 posts. Of those 22 posts, 5 are explanations for your absence. 2 are votes or unvotes without any reasoning.

The following post doesn't say much:

My opinion on saber is neutral/leaning scum thus far, but I am more than willing to lynch the slot rather than deal with replacement WIFOM. Reason I am not entirely sold on him being scum is because I just finished a game with him, insert link here, where he played the same sort of awfulness.
.

Boiling it down, you're basically saying that you just don't have an opinion on Saber, and thus are willing to lynch.

1 of your posts is, of course, a random vote.


That makes a total of 10 fluff posts, out of 22. That's almost half. Most of the others are merely asking for clarification on points that other players made.

[Netopalis]

Doombunny, Konowa asked that question and not me.

[Netopalis]

Forbiddan and Amished: Does it really give scum that much info? It should be fairly obvious who the town does and does not suspect....

[Netopalis]

True, I guess. I suppose my thought was that the people who are the mafia are also people who have played here before and should be able to intuit who is scummy and who is not. Therefore, discussion of who is and who isn't scummy or who is and isn't townish seems perfectly reasonable, given that it gives very little info to the scum but it allows for a greater breadth of town discussion.

[Netopalis]

Forbiddan - I was thinking....Is it possible that he was a reverse-miller designed to throw him off? As for his neighbor's character, it's fairly obvious, as there were two Valentine brothers in the series.

Also - I didn't kill Amished OR kikuchyo, for the record - my one-shot vig is still intact. However, this means that we have an extra killing role....

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I should have said reverse-death-miller....

[Netopalis]

Hmm....Yeah, I'd suggest a Doombunny lynch as well, since the # of vampires doesn't seem to matter....Unless the scumgroup is real vampires, perhaps. In that case we'd be looking for Alucard/Incognito/Police Girl and possibly Helena.

[Netopalis]

As for the SK...I realize that my character is the most likely candidate, but I'd like to maintain that I'm not one. Other characters that would line up with it, though, would be Bubbancy (The Baboan Sith that attacked Integra while posing as her sister), Enrico, Walter or maybe Rip Van Winkle depending on how far these characters stretch.

[Netopalis]

Chaco....Hmm...I think it should be said that this doesn't make you any less scummy, since, while theoretically neighbors could be both town, this rarely happens in practice. That being said, we've already been shown that this will have some odd rules...so perhaps we should discount normal practices....I'll consider it a null claim for now.

[Netopalis]

Doombunny - Two things. Firstly, it's entirely possible that Chaco could be lying about his alignment as well - at death, both come up as pro-town neighbor but are secretly scum. Second, if the reveal is genuine, there's another interesting fact...Jan Valentine was a vampire, yes, but he was a vampire who was created through artificial means - the implant of a chip. The series makes a huge distinction between the FREAK chip vampires and the genuine vampires - the game could as well. You're right, though, that flavor discussion doesn't help out a great bit....As for a roleblocker, I'd be more shocked if we *didn't* have one.

[Netopalis]

Chaco, hold your horses, this doesn't mean that Integra is scum....We also know that Pip Bernadotte was town, and he worked for Integra.

[Netopalis]

Ok...I think it's time that we move things a bit more towards the substantive side as far as discussion goes. Clearly, a massclaim is going to give us no information, although theming DOES seem to have some sort of say on who is and isn't scum. I really don't like Chaco since the day change - he's moving very hastily, as if he's particularly scared over somtehing.

Forbiddan is moving more and more towards the pro-town side. Doombunny also is actually looking better in my opinion, since he's trying to progress game discussion and seems to be in earnest. Right now, my two main suspects are SSK and Konowa, Konowa for reasons that I posted yesterday and SSK for his short, fluffy posts which look like game advancement but are not. I also feel that SSK is trying to give us as little to work with in his posts as possible, something that really makes him blip on my scumdar. See especially his first post, in which he is apparently too busy to read the thread (which wasn't TOO long at the time) and requests a summary.....why a summary from Doombunny? Also: a summary doesn't help you catch scum whatsoever....

For now, I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: MafiaSSK

, although consider that vote subject to change.

[Netopalis]

Who is your "confscum", why do you waffle on Forbiddanlight between your list and your analysis and can I get a bit more expansion on your opinions?

[Netopalis]

Chaco: How do you deal with Incognito being scum, though? I clearly can't see him and Integra being on the same side either.

[Netopalis]

SSK: Incognito was the Big Bad, the white vampire that they ended up fighting towards the end of the series at the Tower of London. And I think that the links CAN make sense, given the right scumgroup...What you have to realize is that, in Hellsing, the character links are very complex. Almost every character has multiple groups to which they belong. The Integra ability makes me think that true vampires is the group, but I'm not 100% sure.

[Netopalis]

Alright....I'm getting tired of all of this theme discussion, since I don't think it's getting us anywhere. Therefore, I'm going to post a quick summary of the possibilities for groupings of characters in hopes that we can move on a bit...

Note that the following assessments are predicated on the ideas that A) all current claims are valid and B) all members of a given group are mafia.

Cleared groups:
Hellsing Organization (Cleared by Integra, Pip Bernadotte)
All Vampires (Cleared by Jan Valentine)
FREAK chip vampires (Cleared by Jan Valentine)
Iscariot Organization (Cleared by Alexander Anderson)
Soldiers (Cleared by Pip Bernadotte)
Loyal British subjects (Cleared by Pip Bernadotte)
The Roundtable (Cleared by Integra)
The Wild Geese (Cleared by Pip Bernadotte)
Non-British Subjects (Cleared by Alexander Anderson)

Possible groups:
True Vampires (Would catch Incognito)
Millennium Organization (May catch Incognito, depending on how you read the series)
Non-humans (Would catch Incognito but may fail depending on how you interpret the storyline with Alexander Anderson)


I'm probably missing a few, but I think that covers most alliances. Additionally, there may be a game mechanic regarding the master relationships (Integra/Alucard and Alucard/Seras Victoria, among others)

[Netopalis]

Well, frankly, I'm not up to dealing with your laziness.

Unvote, vote:Magnus_Orion

[Netopalis]

I think that it's scummy to simply make unfounded accusations. I think you may be on the right track, but you need to give reasons. You can't simply say "X is town" or "Z is scum" and expect anyone to follow you. This is a game of logic - give us something to work with.

[Netopalis]

Alright, let's start with those that you find scummy. Your reads on Shotty to the Body, MafiaSSK and Konowa?

[Netopalis]

You are terribly misguided if you believe this game has anything to do with logic.

Also: I'm afraid that if we were to simply state our various guts, we'd never get anywhere. There is at least a little bit of logic behind each of these games, otherwise we would get nowhere.

[Netopalis]

Very well, then. Now, before I analyze that, your reasoning for your town calls? To refresh your memory, they were:
Doombunny
Forbiddanlight
Albert B. Rampage
Netopalis
Chaco

[Netopalis]

Thank you, Magnus. It would have been much easier if you had just started out with that....In the future, might I suggest that having reasons for your actions isn't always such a terrible thing?

Unvote

Incidentally, I don't know if you guys have played with ABR before, but his actions in this game seem to be the norm for his meta - I just finished up a game with him in it in which he, oddly enough, refused to actually read the thread.

FL, I'm not sure that I like what I'm seeing from you. Your discouraging of the use of logic and the way that you present everything as a done deal, already decided is a bit disconcerting. On the other hand, I think that you raise good points, especially about Shotty as possible scum. What to do, what to do, what to do....

I'm liking Doombunny as a town player more and more as the day goes on. His actions have definitely been extremely pro-town today and seem to be much in line with my thoughts on the game....

That's about it for now. I'd really like to hear back from SSK....when does he get back from V/LA again?

[Netopalis]

FL, sorry, that quote was misdirected - I meant to type Magus...I was still thinking fuzzylightning.

Magnus - If you are truly such a great and experienced player, I shouldn't have to tell you to back up your arguments. If you don't want me to treat you like that, play the game as if you're engaged and interested. Don't tell me that you're too lazy to make cases.

[Netopalis]

Chaco,
As a person who has played scum successfully before, I know that it's often the best play to keep your most ardent critics alive

for that very reason

. Your argument is, as you say, WIFOM and should thus be discounted.


As I see it, we have 3 lynch possibilities: Doombunny, Shotty and MafiaSSK. For reasons mentioned earlier, I still support an SSK lynch. I believe that, based on some subsequent claims, Doombunny's claim is probably more right than wrong, for flavor reasons. Let me explain:

1) DB claims that there are 4 vampires alive right now.
2) Going off of my earlier hypothesis that only

real

vampires are mafia, this role is not a foolproof way to determine the # of mafia still alive, but it will help narrow things down.
3) Given the series, we can see that there are really only 6 vampires which could really be expected to be in this game: Alucard, Seras, both Valentines, Incognito and Enrico. Of these, 3 are FREAK vampires (Enrico and the Valentines) and 3 are real vampires (Seras, Alucard and Incognito). 3 mafia would be entirely consistent with the ideal mafia size for a game like this.
4) Doombunny would have no way of knowing that the other Valentine brother would speak up, and it appears that he also isn't as knowledgeable about the theme beyond a Wikipedia search. Therefore...
5) It seems more likely than not that he inadvertantly cleared himself, at least partially. I am not going to say that he is certainly town, but I will say that it appears to me that his claim is valid, more likely than not.


(Note: There is a 7th potential vampire in the series - Helena - but I doubt that she is in the game. She plays a rather minor role in most of it, and I'm not really sure what sort of abilities she could be given)

[Netopalis]

Well, ABR, it was good enough to fool every player but you and Chinaman, and several players were rather shocked when I endgamed them. But I really don't feel like getting into an argument over the merits of my play in my last game, just as I don't feel like getting into an argument over the merits of your lack of play in that same game.

[Netopalis]

Ahem. I'm not going to talk about it, because it is completely irrelevant. I know that this is a foreign concept to you, but can we pretty please focus on the matter at hand?

[Netopalis]

Chaco: For the record, I never wanted to enter this discussion....

[Netopalis]

Shotty: I didn't say that you OR doombunny were in my top 3, just that you 3 are the 3 candidates who seem to have the most support right now. I meant to do an analysis on all 3 of you, but forgot to do yours. One moment and I'll post something.

[Netopalis]

Ok....Honestly, Shotty, I get a pretty "Meh" reading from you. Could be town, could be scum. In my opinion, the most startling evidence in favor of you as scum is probably the fact that you really didn't say anything until attacked, but have suddenly exploded in postcount - in my opinion, that is a minor scum indicator, but not a major one.

[Netopalis]

Ok...Can somebody on the Doombunny train compile a succinct argument against him? I'm really not seeing that many good reasons to vote for him other than the fact that Amished wanted to, and that's not really persuasive in my book. Sure, it's good to know that a confirmed townie was against him, but that doesn't make his opinion suddenly golden...it just means that his opinion should be considered free of scum influence.

[Netopalis]

OK, I read through and found 2 people that caught my eye: Chaco and SSK. Throughout the game they have been posting low content posts and most of them were only one or 2 lines (Not counting quotes). Again I don't have much time to talk but I will read through these 2 peoples posts carefully and decide who I want lynched then.

Vote: MafiaSSK

as a placeholder vote.

Everyone needs to stop voting me on posting one liners. I will continue to do this. I have managed to post content. And you're also not taking your votes seriously

unvote vote DB

Incidentally, I can't believe that I forgot to jump on this.....

3 things:
1) Saying you will continue to do something scummy doesn't make that action less scummy

2) If you want to tell people to stop voting for you, you need to give a reason

3) Your statement that you have posted content isn't really true. You haven't.

[Netopalis]

And why do YOU suspect me all of a sudden?

[Netopalis]

You generally only ask that if you suspect someone. Why me and not one of the others?

[Netopalis]

And why did you ask about those four people

specifically

? You don't seem to have a lot of reasoning behind your play...

[Netopalis]

Just popping in to say that Shotty has replaced Konowa on my scum list. Konowa has been extremely helpful today, while Shotty has been running around in circles making little to no sense. I still support an SSK lynch first, but I wouldn't feel bad about supporting a Shotty one based on his, well, shoddy logic.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, the only argument that I've found anyone stating for DB has been that he was waffley and later latched onto a lynch target. I'm not sure why this is considered scummy. Can someone please give me a better reason? Better, say, than voting for Shotty for his terrible logic or SSK for his blatantly useless play?

[Netopalis]

Ugh. I just had a realization.....Thematically, I think that it's probable that we have a cult. Let me walk you through my thought process....

1) If Doombunny's claim is true and he can indeed tell the number of vampires alive at a given night, that implies that the number of vampires will change.

2) The number of vampires will change as players are killed off, but we could figure this out just as easily by counting the dead and alive characters.

3) Kairyuu is, I understand, known for tricky setups. There's no reason to put a role into the game that is essentially dead, especially giving it to a rather important figure like Integra.

4) It would fit thematically for a vampire to be a cult. In the show, real vampires can turn other people into real vampires and FREAK vampires can turn other people into Ghouls (mindless zombies, essentially).

Any thoughts? If there is a cult, how many scum do you think we should expect?

[Netopalis]

The second part is pretty bad...I can definitely support an SSK lynch, but will be willing to remove if he starts to be a bit more pro-town.

[Netopalis]

SSK: This isn't "information without analysis" - I provide facts and explain what logical conclusion I reach from them. It is important for us to know as town what we're up against so that we can hunt for the right people accordingly, as cult acts much different than regular mafia. Also, you need to respond to the case against you.

[Netopalis]

I have to concur...I'm not

opposed

to a Doombunny lynch, but I'd like to know why we're lynching him.

[Netopalis]

Konowa: Reading you in isolation, you give the following reasons for a doombunny lynch:

A) His turnaround on wanting to lynch Saber and his
B) His "Post something or I'll vote for you" speech
C) His request for more flavor on the Millenium/FREAK vampire characters
D) Later changing his mind and going after Chaco and SSK
E) His later failure in following up on his suspicions on Chaco

Honestly, in my opinion, none of these on its own are that scummy. You have a lot of flimsy evidence here. When you put a lot of flimsy evidence together, you don't get a hard case, you just get a lot of flimsy evidence. I will agree that Doombunny is one of the MORE scummy players, but I think that Shotty or SSK is a much better play today. You seem to imply that he has a connection with Shotty or ABR as well. If this is the case, though, it would seem to be that proper procedure would be to lynch Shotty or ABR first. Am I correct in stating your argument, or am I misreading it?

[Netopalis]

Ok, looking back at my Konowa readthrough in isolation, I see that I misread a question as a statement. Therefore, Konowa, you have 5 flimsy reasons for voting for Doombunny instead of 6 flimsy reasons, making your attack on Doombunny even more nonsensical. I'm getting rather frustrated, honestly. If you wish to continue with this wagon, please do explain why you find him to be scummy.

[Netopalis]

No, but you keep attacking him and there are several people on the wagon. I want to know why everyone feels that he's scummy. You said yourself that you've stated several times why he's scum. Are there any reasons beyond what I posted above?

[Netopalis]

Shotty: You are at L-3...I wouldn't claim unless the others really want it. That being said, be prepared to claim at some time today, because I expect that it will eventually move in that direction.

[Netopalis]

I meant in terms of the game "today"

[Netopalis]

Chaco, for what it's worth, I don't think that a wagon against you for lurking would gain much steam if you were posting some stuff. Why don't you go ahead and tell us who you suspect and why?

[Netopalis]

Honestly, Chaco, you have to have a better reason than "My character is town and his character can't be on the same side". Incognito was scum and he can't be on the same side as Integra, by the same logic.

[Netopalis]

Well, you keep saying that, but you never really substantiate it. Would you mind listing a few points about why you find Doombunny to be scummy?

[Netopalis]

1. Go read him in ISO, as I have done multiple times. Just humor me, and do so.
2. Also, I looked back to Amished's suspicions since he died town. One of his main focuses was DB.
3. Doom as much as he posts, isn't helpful in the slightest.

Main point being, go read him in ISO. Tell me that you do not find him incredibly scummy.

1) I'm asking what YOU find scummy.
2) Amished's responses, while he is town, are not going to necessarily be 100% accurate.
3) I think he's been fairly helpful. Can you point to particularly poor posts?

[Netopalis]

Look, folks, I apologize if it appears that I'm pulling a chainsaw defense of Doombunny, it's just....well, we've almost lynched someone for two consecutive days in a row, and I'd really like to know why. Can someone please provide me a single shred of evidence? Anything? If not, then I highly suspect scum activity on the wagons.

[Netopalis]

Humor is a scumtell?
Furthermore, saying someone is scummy doesn't make them scummy. I honestly don't see it. Back up your argument. You don't need to quote all of his posts, just give me 4 or 5 that you think are scummy and why.
And yes, I do dismiss it entirely. Amished has no more reason to know who scum is than anyone else. Sure, we know that he had no ulterior motives now, but that doesn't make his suspicious absolute truth.

[Netopalis]

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy.....

My friend, you need to back up your opinion. If you expect anybody to follow you, then SAY WHY WE SHOULD BLOODY DO IT. It's not good enough to just say that my opinions are wrong, you need to say WHY! Do you consider yourself some sort of tortured genius who can only grace the world with your presence through short sentences so that you don't blind us with the utter and all-consuming light that is your brain? Are you really that arrogant, SSK? Because, honestly, from what I've seen, I've been rather unimpressed.

[Netopalis]

That post continues to irk me. The annoyance, it just won't wash off unless I

Unvote, vote: MafiaSSK

[Netopalis]

FL: While you're here, I was wondering - what's your read on SSK?

[Netopalis]

Ok, now we have something to work with....I can understand why someone would see that as scummy, although I do personally disagree. Someone with a random vote on somebody who is gaining a wagon that they disagree with is in a bit of a catch-22. They can either unvote and be seen as weak or waffling or they can stick with a lynch that they disagree with, which really, really feels wrong to a town player, especially that early in the game. Therefore, he tried to cut the baby in half here...Not take the vote off, but notify that he doesn't particularly like the wagon and won't stick with it.

That can be seen as scummy or not - I don't find it to be so, but I can see perfectly well why someone would find it to be that way. Still, I think that there are better reasons to lynch out there....

[Netopalis]

Konowa: I did reread it....still sounds to me like he doesn't want to be part of a large bandwagon due to a random vote. The later quote that Chaco posted is a bit better...but it does make sense in a way, considering that all town players know their own alignment and do not know any other living players' alignment.

Konowa, post 2: At the risk of being seen as scummy for making a joke....would you consider that to be FUZZY logic? But I digest....That is an interesting point about Kikuchiyo...I had forgotten about that. I'll go back and reread that portion. (Incidentally, I know it's digress...Family guy quote)

[Netopalis]

How does it prove it, Chaco? I'm really not getting what grave sin DB has committed....although at this point, I'm tempted to hop on the bandwagon JUST SO THAT YOU GUYS WILL TALK ABOUT SOMEBODY ELSE. Seriously, it's like you guys are direct marketers trying to impress upon people the value of the new DoomBunny lynch...

[Netopalis]

Scummy. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Netopalis]

Magnus: I won't lie, my vote on SSK is serious. That being said, I honestly have trouble differentiating between scum and just regular failtown. Still, you have to admit...SSK has gotten off really easy here - he's made several unjustified attacks without catching any flack because he's such a terrible player...I could definitely see him using this to his advantage.

Chaco: For the record, I'm a law student. I read 100+ pages per night and have written over 40 pages this semester in outlines of my notes, all in preparation for a series of 4-hour exams that I'll be taking in under a month.

[Netopalis]

WHY?! WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY!??!! WHY ARE YOU VOTING FOR HIM?!! BECAUSE OF PEER PRESSURE?! BECAUSE YOUR MOM DIDN'T LOVE YOU ENOUGH!?!!!! GIVE ME A FREAKING REASON!!!!!!!!!!!

[Netopalis]

Magnus: If your character is who I think it is, then no, you are not a vampire...

[Netopalis]

First of all, way to quad post SSK

First off, why claim? Second off, no shit after you said you would use your action don't you think a roleblocker would focus on you?

I claimed yesterday because I was getting lynched. Also, I guess that no roleblocker did focus on me. -shrug-

This is highly unlikely. I know that Kairyuu would not miss a single night action. He's highly responsible like that.

I would like to know how you find this scummy. If I was mafia, what would I gain from waiting a bit to give the info? (if you remember, Neto was the only one who posted in between my posts.)

I have to second fl on this. I really, really do not like this post and do not see town asking this question.

I asked this question as to find why they might be town as opposed to scum, the second part was to obviously try and figure out what faction the scum belongs to (Millenium, FREAKS, etc.). When we have information town needs to get as much of it as we can without letting have scum get too much which is why I included the part about "feel free to not answer this question" portion of it.

Since I am on the subject, I just remembered something Doombunny. I can not find the reasoning why you had sABeR (bad, I know) as your number one lynch, disregarding Looker as you said, at the end of D1. Can you show me where you provided reasoning? All I can remember is that you constantly said that you had saber listed as failtown.

Saber was always at near the top of who I wanted to lynch. I just felt that what everyone thought was scummy wasn't enough for a vote from me. The evidence for both is the same. I never 100% supported a saber lynch.

Ok, you cite this post plus a bit of backpedaling as for your reasoning. What exactly jumps out at you as making this post scummy?

[Netopalis]

Magnus: We simul-posted....I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a Chaco lynch, of course...but SSK is a higher priority target, I think.

[Netopalis]

No, I'm using Wikipedia too...There are two characters that would work as you described...I haven't actually seen anything other than the regular series, so I haven't watched the part with Millenium in it

[Netopalis]

While we're waiting for Chaco's latest brilliant insight, you all might want to watch the following video:

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail10.html

[Netopalis]

I guess, though, that I am sort of worried for the future of this site....bad players not being lynched because they're bad players makes bad players win more, making bad play good....my brain hurts....

[Netopalis]

Konowa, what on earth do you expect DB to do if he's placed a random vote on someone he doesn't think is scum and a bandwagon starts to form? Do you expect him to stick with it, even though he doesn't support it? Also: Of course the entire town can't be Milennium, there are only 5 potential players from it.

[Netopalis]

And he doesn't say that either. What is his alternative reason for unvoting? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to just say he wanted to avoid a big wagon - although even that isn't scummy in and of itself.

[Netopalis]

I'm sorry, I just don't see it....I would have done the same thing in his position.

[Netopalis]

Not necessarily. It can be, but it is not always.

[Netopalis]

Hmm....That is interesting. I hadn't realized that before. That being said, we know that Pip Bernadotte is town...and he's not Millennium

[Netopalis]

I'm afraid that you really haven't proven much of anything here. Yes, I am defending DB. I think I have a pretty good reason - the sheer fact that nobody has put forth any valid arguments for his scumminess.

DB asked a lot of questions, but Amished did in a similar manner and he was town. I'm sorry, but you're still at the "A lot of flimsy evidence" level - you've not yet provided a single solid block of information that is usable to lynch.

[Netopalis]

And your posts contain that much substance to them? How about SSK? There are a lot of posters out there with far less substantive posts....In fact, I'd say that Doombunny's posts have more substance than most other players' right now.

[Netopalis]

You're delusional.

[Netopalis]

The burden of proof lies with the person making the accusation. Trust me, I know all about burden of proof.

[Netopalis]

Ok, sorry, misread. I thought you said the burden was on me. Quite frankly, though, it's impossible to prove someone is NOT scummy. You can show how they are...but the default is that they are not.

[Netopalis]

See, unfortunately, unlike in law, there is no "evidence" per se beyond the "he-said, she-said" banter that we've been discussing. Everything is rather subjective. That being said, I really doubt that from any perspective the points that you bring forward are enough to cast serious doubt on DB as compared to the other players.

Let's do a little hypothetical....We're playing a game in which players can add points to other players. At the end of the day, the player with the most points is eliminated.

You are trying to get rid of a player...Let's call him Boomdunny. You put 2 points on Boomdunny....but alas, another player - let's call him SafiaMMK - is already at 75 points. The problem isn't that what you've posted isn't right or valid, it's that it doesn't even begin to close the gap between the two players. You're going to have to do something better if you want Boomdunny gone over SafiaMMK this round.

[Netopalis]

But don't you see? We don't see it. You apparently see something - therefore, it is *your* duty to explain to *us* what merits *you* see in this course of action.

Unvote, vote: Chaco

To show you the error of your ways, this vote is removed when one of 3 conditions is met:

1) You prove to me that you are not scummy.
2) You realize the error of your ways and apologize.
3) I get bored and have a better target.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, this is an illustration of how bad YOUR REASONING IS.

[Netopalis]

Albert: The vote is not a serious one....yet. I'm using it to illustrate a point - that Chaco's expectations of how we should all act are illogical. It will be removed if there is a serious bandwagon and I am not convinced of his scumminess.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, to the others on the DB train still, it has been 7 pages and I'm still waiting on an explanation.....

This has to set a record for the longest defense ever.

[Netopalis]

You know what, screw it. I'm going to go ahead and post something affirmative. Here are my suspicion lists for today.

At least 1 of the following 4 are scum:
Konowa
Chaco
SSK
Shotty


Reasoning in order of scummiest to least scummy:

1: MafiaSSK - Absolutely no content and is unapologetic about it. Has made 21 posts when the game is well over 900. Promises lots of posts, never gives any reasoning. Votes twice, both supporting the current wagon. Does nothing to upset the status quo. Epitomizes "laying low", "going with the flow" and general lurking.
2: Chaco - Behind 2 wagons, both for questionable reasons. Lots of noise, very little signal.
3: Shotty - Similar to chaco - lots of noise, very little signal.
4: Konowa - Improved today, but still somewhat scummy. Lots of posts encouraging a course of action without stating why other than that "people should".



Possibly, but unlikely scum list:
Albert, Doombunny

I'm almost certain of townitude:
Forbiddanlight, Magnus_orion


MafiaSSK or Chaco is the play today, I believe. Of the two, I think that Chaco is more of a failtown read than MafiaSSK is.

[Netopalis]

Magnus: Stated far better than I could have. Kudos.

[Netopalis]

Also: Requesting prod on SSK.

[Netopalis]

Konowa: Really, it's something that arose yesterday - you have a few posts with statements - such as "Can we lynch doombunny now?" and ". Everyone not voting, should. " - that don't really follow the rest of your post. They're unsupported, and it looks like you're trying to advocate a position without actually sticking your neck out for them. That being said, it's much improved today and especially recently.

[Netopalis]

Also: Requesting prod on SSK.

Blech.

Unvote vote Net

Are you trying to get lynched? You and Chaco sound like you're running for public office, considering how hard you're trying to garner our votes...

[Netopalis]

EBWOP: At this point, I'm practically up for a policy lynch of SSK. Getting him into an endgame situation will equal instaloss.

[Netopalis]

And how many has the town let you survive to?

[Netopalis]

Riiight. Well, consider this an opportunity to prove yourself. Justify your existence.

[Netopalis]

1) Why is humor a scumtell? People keep saying that it is, but I really don't see it.
2) You're criticizing him for unvoting a random vote. Honestly.
3) That could be because everybody in this game has gone after him at one point or another.
4) It's a perfectly valid question, especially about you and SSK. You're both making broad claims with shoddy logic and, in your case, extremely aggressive stylings. I'm not thinking past the tip of my nose? I oughta...

*ring*
*ringring*

*answers the phone*

Netopalis talks into the receiver as a deep voice is heard on the other end of the line.

"Yeah, he's here. Sure, I can tell him."

Netopalis hangs up and says to Chaco, "That was the kettle. He says to stop calling him black."

[Netopalis]

Waffling on Saber....Meh. I can kinda see it. It's certainly not extremely good evidence, though.

[Netopalis]

My pleasure. In order to be a good attorney, you need to know only one word. "Maybe."

[Netopalis]

FL, if it was in your wall of text, I didn't, because I felt that the responses were contained in my responses to Konowa on the same page.

You make two arguments and point to two posts by DB that implicate him as scum. These posts are 758 and 802. I'm not sure why you find 758 to be scummy, and your accompanying commentary ("reminds me of why I wanted to vote DB in the first place") doesn't help much. 802...he's still renewing his suspicion of Saber/ABR, but he's adding suspects. I'm not entirely sure what's wrong with that. Wishy-washy? I'd prefer to think that it's the effect of the replacement. ABR has done a much better job in this game than Saber ever did. Backpedaling...Maybe. Again, though, I don't feel that it's enough to call him scum.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and while we're at it...I'll come out and say it. I'm defending DB, so long as the claims against him

are still this weak

. Once I hear a good reason to lynch him, I'll go with it, but all of the things that I've heard thus far are paper-thin. It bothers me to think that we've almost lynched someone for two consecutive days based on this terrible, terrible logic. It rather reminds me of the Monty Python Burn the Witch scene...

[Netopalis]

Ok, now THIS is much, much better. Sorry that I missed these posts earlier, or we could have saved a few pages of discussion....

Noncommittal, when the posts are lined up like that, does definitely show a pattern of connection to Saber/ABR. If Saber/ABR flips scum, then DB almost certainly is. However, this is assuming that Saber/ABR flips scum, and he's not really been discussed that much today.

As for the fail-town call, I think we've seen it used enough today and appropriately enough that I don't have to explain why I feel that it's a null-tell.

Therefore, I think we should revisit this discussion if and when ABR or DB flips.

[Netopalis]

FL: Do you feel that Chaco's and Konowa's...questionable posts in support of a DB lynch are a misunderstanding/failure to understand the arguments for the wagon, or do you find them to be opportunistic scum?

Also, unfortunately, a lot of this game seems to hinge on reads on Saber/ABR. His lynch, while not necessarily scummy, would give us a ton of information. On the other hand, it's lynching a player who's actually done very well today. I'd like everybody to comment on this idea, as I think that the results would be rather interesting.

[Netopalis]

Chaco IS more likely to be scum due to both claim and overall unhelpfulness

...

Honestly, DB would be a better lynch. Slightly less information, but more of a read on ABR and saber, which will help with some of the information we'd get from his lynch.

I'd like to ask you about these two parts, specifically. Firstly, how do you get that his claim makes him scummy, considering that it was posted earlier that, generally, it is common for there to be two pro-town neighbors in a game?

Second, I'm not sure I entirely follow your second statement. I think that you're saying that we would get less info from a DB lynch, but it would make a subsequent lynch of ABR better from an information perspective? I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of making two lynches for info reasons considering that we have no idea how many more lynches we have....

[Netopalis]

I see. That does make sense...I wouldn't be entirely opposed, especially since it would also give us a lot of info on Konowa/Chaco/Shotty....

[Netopalis]

Well, I realize that it does put me in hot water if DB does flip scum. That being said, I'd hope that my posts stand up on their own.

[Netopalis]

I was opposed to a DB lynch because I felt that it was driven by hype more than by logic and reasoning. Up until 8 pages ago, I hadn't really seen anybody post *why* they felt that DB was scummy. I like to have reasons behind my lynches, so I called for some reasoning....I didn't get any...I waited 2 pages...then I got frustrated. To me, it looked as if there were players who were actively attempting to lynch DB for no apparent reason - probably so that they can just survive another day and provide as little info as possible. I mean, what else am I supposed to expect when I see arguments that amount to, in their entirety, "Vote DB - he's obviously scummy!"

This isn't to say that he's ENTIRELY unscummy in my eyes. He hasn't been the best player or the most pro-town. However, he has done a lot better than at least 3 other players in the game that come to mind off the top of my head. That's why I spent 6 pages defending him - because I was scared of us going down the wrong path.

FL's post makes sense, though - with the caveats that I posted in response to it. It only holds up if we accept as fact that Saber/ABR is scum - a fact which has not been proven. Therefore, while I don't necessarily think he's scum or even the best play, I would be willing to accept a DB lynch today. It will certainly give us information, although I am rather scared about the state of the town if we're wrong. We have 3 players who are seemingly incapable of intelligent and analytical posting, and at least 2 of them will likely survive to the next day. If we consider the fact that there are probably still 2 scum and that the unaccounted for kill last night could be from an SK, we could very well be in lylo tomorrow. Therefore, a valid consideration must be who will prove to be a liability during the endgame. This is, I feel, another point in favor of keeping DB around....and for lynching someone like SSK who is both scummy AND completely, unabashedly, wholly and unapologetically useless.

[Netopalis]

Chaco, your posts were honestly useful only as toilet paper for me. FL's post gave me reasons and it clearly outlined why a DB lynch is a good idea. I'm not 100% sold on it...but if it came down to it, I'd support it. I do want to make it clear here, though: in NO way did your posts make an iota of difference in my opinion. In fact...they pretty much confirmed my suspicion that the vast majority of people voting for DB really didn't know why they were doing it.

[Netopalis]

Overuse of smilies? Honestly? Seriously? Let me set off some scumbells for you, then.





















:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

[Netopalis]

If DB is town, then you are my first target, followed by SSK and Shotty to the Body.

[Netopalis]

Because FL wasn't being opportunistic. He had an honest belief and clear understanding of why he felt that DB was scum. You, on the other hand, appear to me to have jumped on what you considered to be an easy wagon, then got caught with your pants down.

Finally, my statements (attempts to be "cute, as you call them) are there to illustrate a point - the idiocy of your claims.

[Netopalis]

I'm afraid that I don't quite see the logic, no. You don't know how else to put it because you're finding something where there is nothing.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. You're asking what I would do if I was persuaded that DB was scum? Vote for him, of course. My defense was always contingent on the fact that I felt that the wagon was without merit. Without that contingency, I would be up for voting.

[Netopalis]

I asked for responses. FL provided. I really don't see an ulterior motive here. Are you implying one? If so, please state it clearly rather than dancing about the issue.

[Netopalis]

And I told you. I don't really see an ulterior motive here. You are doing one of two things: you're either trying to discredit me or you're trying to discredit FL. I'm rather suspicious of either.

[Netopalis]

I'm turning it into a battle because I'm not sure where you're going with it.

To play along, I would imagine that it's to put more weight on a bandwagon that he/she supports and to clear up confusion.

[Netopalis]

FL: Apologies about the gender thing. Here's a coupon to let you refer to me by the wrong gender in one post. Cash value: 1/10000th of a cent.

STB: Not necessarily that I would want to lynch you, but I do think it would help shed some light on your actions.



I'm definitely in favor of a Chaco lynch now....He's today's play.

Unvote, vote: Chaco

[Netopalis]

I understand that it's an inside joke from another game?

[Netopalis]

Net, you were already voting for me. Any reason for revoting?

I thought I was voting SSK. I would have unvoted and revoted you, though, for emphasis.

[Netopalis]

Not scummy, but detrimental. Especially when you include the fucking ugly happy face in every post.

You die when I die son.

Wow...Missed this post when I made the post above me. Want to talk about proof of scum? I'm convinced.

[Netopalis]

You die when I die son.

Really, it's this last part. Threats are, in my experience, a scumtell.

[Netopalis]

I'm not sure which first post you're referring to...But you did call it that. I'm afraid you're starting to break up...

[Netopalis]

And why does lynching you = automatically lynching Doombunny on the next game day?

The opinion of lynched players, even if they are confirmed as town, is not the final say on who should be lynched.

[Netopalis]

Is any of this going anywhere? I feel like we may have been here before.

[Netopalis]

Mod: Prod on MafiaSSK? He hasn't posted in 2 days...

[Netopalis]

Konowa: Honestly, you have more pressing issues IRL. Worry about Mafia later...We can lynch you tomorrow, if need be.

[Netopalis]

DB: Are you referring to FL or to ABR? FL has been really good this game...ABR..well, I'm used to it. We have a bit of a history, and I'm sure he'd love nothing more than to lynch me at any opportunity he gets. That being said, I don't want to start into yet another fight in thread, so let's just drop it and let him have his vote on me.

[Netopalis]

Oh, sorry. You quoted FL and posted under ABR....

Yeah, SSK is a pain.

[Netopalis]

It means that he's trying to sound intelligent.

[Netopalis]

Ok, in all seriousness...Does anyone have any reason why we shouldn't vote Chaco today? I think we're all pretty much in consensus, but nobody wants to go out on a limb and call for the rope.

Well, I'm going to do it.

I say that we all vote for Chaco and get this bloody day over with.

[Netopalis]

Well, if his motive is to get rid of me over finding scum, I'd think that's a problem. To me, what Albert points to is not an indicator of town at all - it's an indicator of scum trying to avoid their own lynch at any costs. As for his posts lacking the verbosity of scum defending themselves...when has Chaco EVER been verbose in this game? Not all scum play alike, and this is WIFOM to boot.

[Netopalis]

Chaco, I was referring to what ABR said.

[Netopalis]

Chaco, ABR said that you weren't verbose and that pointed towards you being town. My point was that you are never verbose.

And yes, I've had those problems. It's called having a gut. Good players figure out how to corroborate their gut with better evidence. You simply can't lynch based on gut.

Finally, I think I've probably done more effective scumhunting than most players in this game. Certainly more than you.

[Netopalis]

First of all, it's "quash" and not "squash". "Squash" is either a vegetable or the act of squeezing, "quash" is to end an argument.

Second, lynches based on gut are generally terrible. I have never seen a lynch based solely on gut that was successful.

Finally, I never claimed that I had insight into roles, just insight onto what players are foreseeably scummy or not.

[Netopalis]

Squeezing the life out of this game? Hardly. I'd put the burden for that on the players who never post or who are trying to drive lynches without reason.

Also, why should I do so? You've given me no reason to do it. We've given ample reasons why you might be scum.

[Netopalis]

Chaco, I think what you're failing to understand is that you're basically doing the following:

"X is true. Prove me wrong!"

Well, that's not how it works. It works in the reverse - you make a statement and you prove it. If you can't prove it, it's not adopted. Continuing illogical statements in an attempt to make a hurried lynch lead us to believe that you are scummy.

[Netopalis]

Alright, then. Any opposition to Chaco's lynch?

[Netopalis]

Shotty, SSK, Doombunny, your thoughts?

Konowa is excused due to that whole getting married thing.

[Netopalis]

L-3. No other players besides us have voted in the last 10 pages.

[Netopalis]

Brilliant deduction, MafiaSSK. Absolutely brilliant. Your powers of scumhunting boggle the mind. I am so enamored with your massive intelligence that words simply do not describe exactly how I'm feeling right now. I just can't say how much I want to drop everything and follow you to the endgame on this one. Everyone, let's nominate him for one of the scummies! Heck, let's nominate him for all of them! Clearly, this man has put more time and energy into this game than any other player and has solved it to the point where it is nothing more than child's play!

[Netopalis]

*ring ring*

Chaco, it's for you. I think it's the kettle again.

[Netopalis]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... telligence

[Netopalis]

I take it back...that's a bit harsh. You're not unintelligent, you're just not very good at the game...

[Netopalis]

I'd like to hear from somebody else. There are apparently 9 players still alive in this game? Doesn't feel like it....

[Netopalis]

Well, I could resort to my repetoire of victorian insults, but I'd really rather that we moved the lynch wagon along and hear from the players that we haven't heard from.

[Netopalis]

Scum also don't want to kill SSK or Chaco. The argument goes in a variety of ways.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, ABR, I'd invite you to post a case on DB if you want to lynch him. I'm all for it if someone can give me a reason that's better than those for Chaco or SSK.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, but Chaco's been bad too, as has MafiaSSK. All of our worst players are making their position worse.

[Netopalis]

A meta pass? He has over 1000 posts and has modded 2 games.

[Netopalis]

Hmm. Maybe we should start a petition to get him limited until he improves.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, but there's a difference between having an anti-town playstyle and intentionally being JUST inactive enough not to get replaced.

[Netopalis]

And your point?

[Netopalis]

Oh, OK. Not who I was expecting....interesting.

[Netopalis]

Look....honestly, I don't care who we vote, be it Chaco or SSK. I'm willing to switch to whichever bandwagon is likely to close before the end of the day - all I want to do is to make sure that we avoid a no lynch.

[Netopalis]

No, as long as it's you or SSK, I don't care.

[Netopalis]

I will assess the situation pending the promised vote count.

[Netopalis]

What connections are you talking about?