Mini 861: Hellsing Mafia - (Game Over!)

[Konowa]

Guess Kairyuu does not think my V/LA was important enough to announce I will be V/LA till Monday.

Sorry. I figured that since you mentioned it last weekend it only applied to that weekend. V/LA noted.

---

vote saberwolf

sup?

[Konowa]

Back.

Should be caught up within an hour.

[Konowa]

kikcuhiyo, you seem to be really pushing this gap in logic on fuzzy. Why no vote? Why drop the issue, as you say in post 44?

unvote;

vote kikcuhiyo

Since I was asked, I personally despise self-voting in RVS. Mainly for the reason that it does not allow me to see as much reasoning in a change of vote as it would if the supposed self-voter random voted someone else.

Archon, at this point why are fl, Chaco, and saber not likely to be scum?

saber, what about Doombunny has given you a gut scum read so far?

Where is Netopalis?

[Konowa]

maybe secretly my gut read is he's scum.

This implied to me that you had a gut scum read on Doombunny. Or was that just a hypothetical answer as to why you randomly moved your vote when earlier you said you would move your vote when you got scumvibes off of someone?

Doombunny, what do you think of my kikcuhiyo vote?

[Konowa]

Alright, so your [saber] real reason for the Doombunny vote was an attempt to start an opposing wagon, correct? Without any justification as to why you voted, or any questioning of Doombunny, did you think that people were going to jump on after you?

[Konowa]

unvote;

vote Netopalis

[Konowa]

Bah post explosion.

Will get to this in a second.

[Konowa]

unvote;

saber, why do you expect a vote with no reason from me? Also, as of post 149 did you also believe that there was a lack of content?

The simple fact of the matter is that until Amished started talking, nobody had really said much of substance to go on.

So you believe that there was no worthwhile discussion before Amished arrived? Also, do you believe that early on we should have very tight, sealed cases on who we suspect? This is what I am getting from your [Netopalis] post 257.

As far as the claim goes and him possibly being a NK-Immune SK instead of Miller NK-Immune One-Shot Vig at this point I suggest we treat it as a normal miller claim. If he acts scummy, lynch him. The way he claimed it leads me to believe him though.

3) I do see the doombunny/saber connection and so I can support lynching out of those two, however, Looker seems to be asking for a policy lynch.

What connection do you see between the two of them? Also, I hope you have a good reason for not pushing fuzzy.

As far as the no suspects situation. I am going to have to agree that I find that scum have a higher chance of "not being able to read the game" or "have no suspects" than town. Town players come to this point every once in awhile too, so it is not a clear-cut scum-tell, but it will be something I attack someone over. Amished explains this better in 186.

I have no knowledge of Hellsing.

Gathering more thoughts.

[Konowa]

kikuchiyo, what connections did you think you saw between saber and Doom?

---

Do not have time to post my complete thoughts right now. Been a hell of a week. I have some free time tomorrow that should allow me to fully delve through this game.

[Konowa]

Back and catching up now.

[Konowa]

Posting what caught my eye. I am also making this a short post due to what has happened.

My opinion on saber is neutral/leaning scum thus far, but I am more than willing to lynch the slot rather than deal with replacement WIFOM. Reason I am not entirely sold on him being scum is because I just finished a game with him, insert link here, where he played the same sort of awfulness.

vote saber

Going back now and seeing what I did not catch in my skim.

[Konowa]

I fail.

Here is the link to the game I was talking about.

[Konowa]

Posting as I go. If it is answered later on I will take note of it.

---

Looker, Fuzzy, and Chaco. They have been posting low content posts and haven't been posting much at all.

Why are these three mentioned in this context, but not Archon?

Pretty old news here. I don't like this question at all. The buddying and defending between saber and Doom, and the discussion thereof, has taken up the majority of the day. Not quite sure how you missed it.

Your question seems "fluffy"

How is my question fluffy? You [kikuchiyo] never commented on what you saw between them. Your comment earlier was that you saw the connection between Doom and saber. Then with no word to say otherwise, you say that you no longer see the connection between them.

Let me rephrase my question then to make it less "fluffy". What makes you no longer see the connection betwen Doom and saber?

You answered this in 326.

Doombunny's 344 makes me twitch. Do not like the whole "say something, or I'll vote you" aspect of the post.

What are your exact opinions on *both* Doombunny and Saber?

At this point in my readthrough I think they are both scummy enough to deserve a good wagon.

Here's me thoughts on the deal, Saber took a dive of activity once everyone started scrutinizing him and then a day or so later he decided to replace out. We'll be getting nothing from the replacement but "Don't kill me I'm [insert role claim]!". Because he will not know Saber's motives, and we are already so close to a lynch on him. I believe the best play we can do is just lynch Saber and see where that takes us.

This.

kikcuchiyo's flip-flop on saber's lynch makes me twitch also. kikuchiyo, would you believe a vanilla claim?

fuzzy, Archon, and Netopolis need to start posting.

saber needs a hanging.

[Konowa]

I really do not see how you could call anything in that exchange helpful, but perhaps I am being bias as I had to deal with it.

Lurkers are bugging me

[Konowa]

I was all for a saber lynch up till Doom's complete 180 in 408.

unvote;

vote Doombunny9

[Konowa]

...but with doombunny actually being around and continuing to be scummy (sheeping without reason)

I'm almost of the opinion to lynch

one

Doombunny and make net "vig"

the other

saber

.

Fixed. This.

[Konowa]

Blergh.

Archon, Netopalis, Looker should all weigh in with opinions before anyone is lynched.

Blergh.

---

@Mod - Prod on Netopalis? Last post was Thursday.

[Konowa]

This game is giving me a massive case of *headdesk*.

[Konowa]

I'm less sure of Doom then most of you, he strikes me as more VI then scum, or maybe even a Jester since that's a possibility. I'd rather lynch Saber and shoot Doom based on that alignment,

if you want to push him to claim that's the town's perogative, but to lynch him straight up I don't think I'll be involved.

For clarification, are you referring to saber or Doom when you say him here?

[Konowa]

Thought on the matter before I go back and read.

I would rather Net shoot N1 and hit town, then Net shoot any other night and hit town. If he is going to miss, miss early and eliminate the suspect pool. I do not see why this is such a big deal.

[Konowa]

Also.

unvote;

[Konowa]

Sorry for the unannounced absence. I have had some family issues that have taken precedence these past few days.

---

So I skimmed through what I missed and I agree that Looker needs a hangin'. People who claim scum need to be roped up or the WIFOM backlash will be horrendous.

Its day 1. Lynch the claimed scum.

vote Looker

Will bring up some points that caught my attention later tonight, hopefully.

[Konowa]

Doombunny, if you believe that Looker is a bad lynch who do you think is scum?

Netopalis, can you quote what posts of mine you feel to be fluffy?

Also, I do not want to drag this back into a theoretical argument about it, but my opinion is that it is better for the town if you [Netopalis] shoot earlier rather than later. Like I said earlier, I would rather you shoot early, miss, and shrink the suspect pool, than shoot late and possibly endgame us. Feel free to disagree with me on the theory behind this, but trying to push theory as a scum-tell is quite scummy.

[Konowa]

You must have a different definition of fluff than me then. Try reading in context instead of isolation.

[Konowa]

I wish fl would not have shown scum her hand in 732, but the cards have been shown.

@Chaco+Forbs-(Again, feel free not to answer if this would cause you to claim Forbs) You are both part of millenium/FREAKS. Is there any flavor about why you joined up with the town (because you would both seem like scum names to me) or what the mafia might be?

I have to second fl on this. I really, really do not like this post and do not see town asking this question.

vote Doombunny9

Since I am on the subject, I just remembered something Doombunny. I can not find the reasoning why you had sABeR (bad, I know) as your number one lynch, disregarding Looker as you said, at the end of D1. Can you show me where you provided reasoning? All I can remember is that you constantly said that you had saber listed as failtown.

Will get to more of this in a few.

[Konowa]

2. Proof please. I attacked Saber because I thought he was the best lynch, I offered my opinions on the other players at the time,

took a correct read on DB which is confirmed by his claim

and Kik's posts, and tried to maintain activity through a very lackluster D1.

Given the latest discussion regarding Millenium, would you still consider this to be true?

[Konowa]

Can we lynch Doombunny now?

[Konowa]

Quick question before I go back and re-read some things.

Doombunny, what happened to sABeR? What about Chaco and SSK made you drop consideration of sABeR?

[Konowa]

magnus, that is actually what I am going back to read right now.

Given recent discussion though, he would be second choice for lynch behind Doombunny. I do not like how he is trying to lynch ABR and is not even addressing him.

[Konowa]

Will try and post later tonight, but it is looking doubtful since I forgot what day it is and I have to travel out to Border's to pick up my copy of

The Gathering Storm

. Will probably be too immersed to do anything but read the rest of the night.

[Konowa]

After re-reading what you are trying to sell Shotty, how do you expect ABR to respond to a case against him when the case you are pushing is not even against him? Hell, the case is not even against saber. It is how

kikcuchiyo

acted towards saber. Your entire case you are trying to push against ABR is nothing but bad WIFOM. That is why I find you scummy. ABR not responding to said case is probably him recognizing that it is WIFOM and is a slight town tell in my opinion.

unvote;

vote Shotty to the Body

Although I still find Doombunny scummy, reasoning below, theory working in my mind right now would like a Shotty lynch more.

I am still looking at/considering Saber/ABR as scummy. As I said before, because 2 of my top 3 people that I though were scum died (Looker+Amished) I decided to look back and try and find more people who I want lynched. Those people are Chaco and SSK.

From your list at the end of D1, sABeR was your number one scum. Semantics aside, I fail to see how "looking at/considering" matches with this view. Words fail me right now, but the brunt of it is that I do not like how sABeR was number one in your book yesterday, and with no word otherwise you have barely mentioned him today. Now, you are voting SSK and state that you can not push anything because he is not saying enough. I really do not like how content you seem with camping your vote on SSK until he decides to talk "more". If Chaco is also a scum read of yours, why are you not pursuing him? At the moment, this is why I find you scummy.

@fl - What are your thoughts on Shotty?

Preview Edit:

I've presented the most logical, evidence-supported case out of ANYONE and your busting me for having no reasoning to ask a general read question on a few people?!

You case is neither logical or supported by evidence. It is pure WIFOM.

---

Off-topic.

Either you have an ego like a hot air balloon,...

I chuckled here.

[Konowa]

@Mod - Votecount?

@Mod and all: I will be V/LA this weekend due to a out of town wedding I am attending. I will also be V/LA the following weekend for my wedding Next week will also be a little chaotic for me with all the last minute stuff we have to get done. I will try to post as much as time allows me to.

[Konowa]

Thanks Amished. I would have to say this will probably be tied for first with our daughter's birth.

ABR, no. That is actually why I quit bartending. So I could get myself out of that lifestyle.

---

Just to bring this back to the front, I would like to hear SSK's answer to ABR's question in 782.

Also, since I can not remember it off the top of my head (which me thinks means that it really has not been that prevalent during discussion), Doombunny what is your read on Shotty? With reasoning please.

[Konowa]

Thoughts tomorrow.

[Konowa]

Shotty, who else is scum?

Doombunny, what is your read on Shotty? With reasoning please.

The main reason I am voting SSK is because he is posting a lot of low-content posts and doesn't even post enough of those.

I am planning on leaving my vote on SSK unless something changes my mind. Him talking more will not change my mind much.

I probably should pursue Chaco more though. -shrug-

Ugh. I really wish I had words right now to describe how bad this is making me twitch.

[Konowa]

@Mod - Prod fl?

---

Doombunny and Shotty are obv partners. I would be down for either one of their lynches.

Netopalis, I have already stated why I think Doombunny is scum. However, to add to this he deflects majorly both in post 853 and 856. Instead of forming cases, which has been repeatedly asked, he is now appealing to lack of posting.

(By the way, when was the last time SSK or Chaco posted? I really want to hear them being as how they're 2 out of my 3 scum choices).

Also SSK and Konowa, you have yet to do what was asked of you from Neto in post 810. I really want to know all of the reasons brought together on one organized post. Is that too much to ask?

@Doombunny - With content, lack thereof or not, already provided why do you think SSK, Chaco, or sABeR is a better lynch than Shotty?

[Konowa]

....

*iz confuzzled*

Where do you get the notion the I am implying that he [Doombunny] has a connection to ABR?

[Konowa]

Pause.

Netopalis, let Doombunny respond to my question in 859 before you answer my question.

[Konowa]

Anyways, gone for the weekend.

If a Shotty lynch has not happened by the time I get back I will be thoroughly disappointed in all of you.

*glares*

[Konowa]

Quick iPhone post. Net, I am currently voting Shotty. I am not on Doombunny's wagon. Everyone not voting, should.

[Konowa]

Shotty, why are you pursuing sABeR for connections through kikcuchiyo, but not magnus? If you are going to pursue connections

through

confirmed scum why are you not pursusing all of them? This is my problem with what you are doing. You are only presenting half of the options available. Pursuing connections

through

confirmed scum, rather than

to

confirmed scum lands you more false leads and nose-deep in WIFOM. It is also easier for scum to push bad cases due to these "connections" and that is what I think you are doing. Hell, you are not even recognizing and stating that your case is WIFOM.

You, also, have been tunneling on sABeR all game and not scum-hunting in what I believe to be a pro-town manner. You claim you hunt scum through motivation, but I hardly see any of that until recently. Up until a couple of days ago, you seemed plenty content to repeatedly state that sABeR is scum due to connections

through

kikcuchiyo. I fail to see how this is hunting for motivation.

You came out guns blazing on Chaco being scum. Then, after magnus calls you out on the bad logic, you backpedal quick.

---

Net, here is why I find Doombunny scummy.

I agree with you [Konowa] for your reasons but I don't think it's enough for a (real) vote from me. I don't really think anything of it at this point.

If a large bandwagon forms I will take my vote off though.

Note: Doombunny's random vote was on kikcuchiyo at this time.

Unless some bad reasoning was presented, which he did not state was the case, I do not see any reason why town should have to remove their vote from a wagon. Wagon's present town with numerous bits of information and move the game forward. The fact that he would remove his vote from a wagon, just due to the fact that a wagon formed on kikcuchiyo reads like scum trying to stay off his buddy's wagon.

Throughout the entirety of D1, he constantly listed saber as failtown. Now, at the end of the day sABeR is his number one scum? Reading his D1 over, this reads more like a policy lynch to me. This reads like scum keeping an option open on someone who is considered scummy by many.

@forbiddan and Shotty Shotty-I noticed you haven't even said anything about my claim. Did you even see it?

I can not fully extrapolate on why this makes me twitch, but re-presenting his claim like this just looks like scum saying "Look at my town claim!".

Now his scum reads seem really convenient at this point in time. Unless I am misreading him, correct me if I am wrong, he [Doombunny9] is voting SSK due to playstyle, finds Chaco scummy for similar reasons even though he is helping out the town, and sABeR for reasons that everyone knows. This just seems like a really, awfully convenient scum list.

---

Konowa 859: Reasoning would be nice. What ties DB and shotty together?

Reasoning would be nice. However, if I presented that reasoning right now that would give both Shotty and Doombunny the opportunity to stop whatever it is that I have caught. This way keeps them both oblivious to what it is.

More Shotty votes.

[Konowa]

You should vote fl.

[Konowa]

I am not sure you are completely following me Netopalis. Re-read the quote I posted. Doombunny specifically stated that if a large wagon formed he would un-vote. What is inferred here is that

despite

reasoning that may have been presented later on, he would un-vote for the sole reason that a wagon was forming. That is why I find it scummy.

[Konowa]

Shotty, that is not what I was referring to when I asked why you are not pursuing magnus due to connections through kikcuchiyo. What I was referring to is kikcuchiyo's odd play early D1 when she made a fuss about fuzzy's (later replaced by magnus) vote. She calls fuzzy out on his bad logic then suddenly drops it. If you are looking at connections

through

confirmed scum, why are you not pursuing this also? What I think you are doing is saving it in your pocket, so later on you can pull it out and say "Look, connections!".

[Konowa]

Shotty, who else is scum?

[Konowa]

Triple-post.

---

And Shotty, just so we do not have to play the "Well, you did not ask that question" game, please provide reasoning when you list who else is scum.

[Konowa]

magnus, I am going to have to burst your bubble. I am Milennium. Start looking elsewhere.

If I remember correctly, there was only one other person on kik at that time.

I don't see how it really matters if I keep my vote on or not just as long as a larger bandwagon didn't form.

This is what I am talking about. To me it seems that you had already determined that should a kikcuchiyo wagon take off you were going to un-vote. Un-voting with the sole purpose being that it is a large wagon is scummy to me. You were not even going to take into consideration what other points might have been brought up against kikcuchiyo. I read this, as I stated earlier, as scum trying to stay off their buddy's wagon.

Doombunny, you have stated several times now that you found saber scummy, but just not for the reasons that everyone else did. Now, I might fail at reading, early morning and no coffee yet, but I can not find any reasoning of your own of why you found saber scummy.

---

If I am adding correct, again early morning and no coffee yet, Doombunny is at L-1. I am willing to hammer. However, there are still some questions of my own that I would like answered before I do this.

[Konowa]

I am pretty sure that Milennium is town. You can chalk this up to confirmation bias though. However, I do not think that the entire town is Milennium.

Preview Edit:

Looks like you figured the votecount out

[Konowa]

Konowa, what on earth do you expect DB to do if he's placed a random vote on someone

he doesn't think is scum

and a bandwagon starts to form? Do you expect him to stick with it, even though he doesn't support it? Also: Of course the entire town can't be Milennium, there are only 5 potential players from it.

Can you point me to where he said that he did not think that kikcuhiyo was scum? Let me answer this for you, he did not. He never claimed that he did not think kikcuchiyo was not scum. That is the point I am trying to make. He agreed with my reasoning, but not enough to confirm vote. Then he said he does not really think anything of it at the moment and that should a wagon take off he will un-vote. Nowhere does he mention that he does not think kikcuchiyo is not scum.

My main point is that it looks like he had already pre-determined,

despite

reasoning that might have been presented later, that he was going to un-vote.

[Konowa]

It is inferred.

I have said several times now that his alternative reason to un-voting is to stay off his buddy's wagon.

Avoiding a wagon on what we know now is confirmed scum, is scummy.

[Konowa]

Avoiding a wagon on what we know now is confirmed scum, is scummy.

Do you disagree with the above statement Netopalis?

---

I will be back later this afternoon.

I would like to see ABR's thoughts and Shotty's scum list before this day is over.

[Konowa]

Boourns at no ABR or Shotty post.

Will back tomorrow.

G'night folks.

[Konowa]

Quick post before I head out to work.

Where did you get the idea that I found him scummy for differant reasons. I agreed with (most) of the things said about him.

I do not have time to go back and quote exactly what you said, but I believe your words were that what everyone else was saying was scummy against saber you were willing to list as failtown. Now you are agreeing with most of the things said against him? Why did you find him scummy?

4: Konowa - Improved today, but still somewhat scummy. Lots of posts encouraging a course of action without stating why other than that "people should".

Expand on what you mean by this.

Still waiting on a scumlist from Shotty.

[Konowa]

I think I am going about this the wrong way.

unvote;

vote MafiaSSK

[Konowa]

Lol if DB is scum so is Net. There's no two sides about it at all.

Why?

Also, why is Doombunny scum? Here is a hint, saying go look at his iso does not count as an answer.

[Konowa]

Okay.

1. The joking
2. Indecision with easily back outs
3. Going after only the ones who go after him
4. "Dumb or Scum" questions

I agree with you on the second and third points. The joking aspect is null to me. I would have to see what you mean by "dumb or scum" questions before I can comment on that point.

Preview Edit:

2) You're criticizing him for unvoting a random vote. Honestly.

I am not going to speak for Chaco on his point, but from my point of view Doombunny was waffling pretty hard on saber's lynch.

Moving on.

Chaco, is Netopalis scum only if Doombunny is scum? Or is he scummy for other reasons also? Also can you show me where this coaching is going on, because frankly I do not see it. What do you think of SSK's omgus vote of Doombunny earlier in the day?

[Konowa]

I now officially hate lawyers. Thank you Netopalis.

[Konowa]

See, now this is where I am having a problem. I do not see the consistency between this train of thought and you [Doombunny] listing sABeR as your number one scum at the end of D1.

Walk me through how you agree with most of the reasons brought up against saber, but it was not enough for you to want to lynch him, but he was still number one on your scum list end of D1.

[Konowa]

I am not caught up in the least bit. These past few days have been a blur between last minute people flying in, dress rehearsal, blah. I will try and get some substance out today, but more than likely it will be Monday.

[Konowa]

Back. Reading everything I have missed over the weekend. When pictures are developed I will post some links.

[Konowa]

Have just skimmed through what I have missed. Probably will not get around to a more in-depth post till tomorrow.

---

I'd prefer a SSK lynch over a Chaco lynch at this point. To me, I think the fact that everyone is talking alot about SSK, but not alot of people seem to be voting him is an indication of him being scum.

@ABR

, why is Doombunny scum?

I do agree with Netopalis, this day is starting to drag and become very stagnant. We need to start moving towards a lynch.

[Konowa]

So, everyone who has been calling SSK scummy and saying that they would lynch him I would like for you to put your vote where your mouth is.

[Konowa]

Few things.

Deadline is Saturday if I recall correctly. I am against a Chaco lynch. The people I would considering lynching is SSK or Shotty.

I really do not like how Shotty has disappeared since this whole Chaco/SSK fiasco has arrived. Like magnus, I still think that a Shotty lynch is the best play for today. His [magnus] 1229 and 1255 sum up my thoughts I posted earlier.

If Net did not shoot as claimed, then there is a SK.

[Konowa]

I rather not go through that list and tell you why each is most likely to be wrong, just listen to me when I say that SK is the most plausible.

[Konowa]

Vote DB

His play since I last posted has just been awful, he's been overdefensive about what would happen to him if Chaco flipped town (implying he knew Chaco would flip town) and he's followed suit on every bandwagon the town has picked up and dropped.

Woah, woah, woah. Let's back this train up. How has Doombunny's play been any different these past few pages as opposed to the rest of the game? Note: Do not answer that. It has not. Here is a better question I do want you to answer though. How has Doombunny's play these past few pages caused you to totally abandon the thought that Doombunny was town based on Kik's willingness to lynch sABeR and not Doombunny? Does this mean that you now think that sABeR is town? I think I just got whiplash from that 180.

unvote;

vote Shotty to the Body

Note to all: I am not going to be around tomorrow. Extended family that could not make the wedding is flying in tomorrow and will be stuck entertaining. Saying that, my vote will be staying where it is as I think Shotty is the best lynch today.

[Konowa]

Erk. Just noticed a fault in my 1361.

Question I want Shotty to answer is this:

How has Doombunny's play these past few pages caused you to totally abandon the thought that Doombunny was town based on Kik's willingness to lynch Doombunny and not sABeR?

[Konowa]

That's why Amished died. =(

[Konowa]

Net, DC sucks. I have no idea why you like it so much. Perhaps it is because I have lived here my entire life. *shrug*

Anyways, I know my problem D1 was all the noise that was happening. I could not place a finger anywhere with saber and Doom being all spaz-like. Generally I get a good gut feeling on two or three players and am happy with any of their lynches. The only feeling I got D1 was that Amished was town, and more than likely vanilla at that, and that I should jailkeep him. I was sad when he died. I auto-assumed that with kik flipping JOAT that she got lucky and rb'ed me. Oh well. There generally is a point in the game where it all starts to make sense to me. After I slowed down and re-read Shotty D2 I was almost 90% sure he was scum. Also Net, as for the whole me repeatedly calling for lynches. It is really more a facet of how I play. If I get a feeling that strong that someone is scum I generally just like to shove it down their throat.

Also this:

You have to profile a player. We're like the FBI here.

Start looking for individual tells. Yes, that is meta and I know some people hate using it. However, I have found recently if you just do a quick, cursory meta scan of a player you think is scum you can find some things.

Any critique would be nice.

[Konowa]

I do not remember what exactly it was, but like magnus said using connections to try and find scum is fine and dandy but using connections through scum is too WIFOMy for me and something I have seen scum use before. It is not the same, but it would be something similar to lynching off of who was NK'ed. Another thing was that when you were trying to push a case on sABeR at the start of D2 you did not question ABR at all. Also, the fact that you did not bring up saber's D1 play until later. It was like you were trying to justify your case based entirely on what saber did and use kik to tie it together.