Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:26 am

Emp, you done with whatever is going on? Let's get some CB lynching happening and move this game forward.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:29 am

You're right Santos, I must be partners with two of the people who I said I would like to see lynched today.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:52 am

I'm bored. Enlighten me as to why you think I may be scum.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:55 am

Santos wrote:Its just a thought, nothing I would rant over the next few pages like he did, but its a strong observation I've made that makes me look at you, Sawyer, as a mafia leader. I've played several Lost mafias and Sawyer was the baddie in 1 of them, but this was offsite so its nothing I'd take to the grave. I could just see Sawyer as being bad...call it a gut feeling

That's deep...especially considering I'm not Sawyer.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:22 pm

ckd wrote:hey VP...take my wager.

What's the over/under? Are you willing to throw in a six pack?

And trust me, Santos' complete ignorance of what has happened in this thread hasn't escaped me.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:16 am

Given your analysis, Emp, am I to assume you want a CB lynch or is there someone else who you think will give more information?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:53 am

I pretty much agree with everything Emp just said, but would have to look into the timeline of question and answers before I made any assumptions about Santos being back on the island.

Anyone opposed to the hammer falling apart from CB and CKD?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:05 am

I say you give people until later today to say final words and then do the honors Zone.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:09 am

Drunken hammer! Now that is wholesome fun I am looking forward to.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:42 am

ZONEACE wrote:oh yeah, especially since there will an hour long open bar and 1 dollar drinks for part of the night

heh, I expect an entertaining rant with this hammer. Don't disappoint.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:42 am

I would imagine a number of factors would influence who I go after tomorrow. If he flipped town and we lose a second town member tonight, I imagine mass claim is going to happen. That will be something to seriously consider. Whoever dies tonight will also be a factor, as I don't know who will be around tomorrow. Unlike you, I have no plans to make poorly arrived at conclusions based on information that is highly questionable.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:32 am

I'm sure the scum are frothing at the mouth to kill you since you've done nothing helpful today while blaming everybody else for what you consider a sorry state of affairs. Maybe someone will vig you and we'll all be better for it.

Apart from yourself (since you've beaten that horse enough today), who do you think I have not taken a stance on in this game thus far?

Since you think questions about tomorrow can be logically answered without NK information, what do you plan to do if CB flips scum? What if I am NKed and flip town?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:09 am

ckd wrote: I also think if CB was scum, there is some hard core (needless) bussing going on right now. at this point, scum (with CB in it) could easily lynch me instead of him. There is no reason to trade CBscum with one vanilla town (I will be lynched tomorrow for sure)

There is one damn vote on you and most people are just ignoring you at this point, so I don't see how you think you are a more viable lynch than CB.

ckd wrote:which will basically prove that I was right and that I am vanilla

yeah....no.

ckd wrote:VP, I dont know where your stances are....can you please restate them?

Sure, see how easy it is when you behave like a rational human being.

CB- Scum
CDB-lurker scum
ckd-possible scum in too deep defending his partner
Emp-will have lots of explaining to do if he lives until tomorrow
Santos-definitely scummy, but I've been wrong about him before and he's almost too outlandish to believe
Juls-seems town to me, but all reads go out the window in lylo
Zone-same as Juls

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:19 pm

I knew I forgot someone...that's what I get for posting at work. Sorry. I'd put you just above Santos for the same reasons. You've been really scummy at certain points this game, and certain things about your play don't make sense to me (your investigation of me, you not receiving a reply to your question, etc.). However, your play is almost too consistently scummy to be scum (which isn't a great argument to make). The reason you are higher than Santos on my list is because I have no experience with you. I need to do some meta of you during the night phase.

VP Baltar · Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:14 am

@ CB, if you flip town you have no one to blame but yourself because you played like shit and did absolutely nothing to convince anyone you are town.

@Reckoner-How many times are you going to vacillate between calling me town and scum in this game? If there is a vig out there I really hope you get what is coming to you tonight.

@zone-you failed me.

VP Baltar · Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:39 am

Here's what's wrong with your argument (again) Reckoner.

1) You have vacillated, at times calling me suspicious for vague reasoning and at other times not. I'm pretty sure Emp already pointed this out to you.

2) I'm the one who started the wagon on CB and all of my reasons are there to see if you actually looking for them.

3) How can you find my comment about you (hopefully) getting vigged suspicious before I even said it?

VP Baltar · Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:48 am

Why should it raise your suspicions? You don't think you're a giant distraction for the town?

VP Baltar · Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:25 am

The one time I am town and Juls has to replace. Sorry to hear that, but be ready for another game together when you get back.

VP Baltar · Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:30 am

Reckoner, do you think CB is more likely to flip town or scum?

VP Baltar · Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:18 pm

Just wanted people to note you trying to set up my lynch for tomorrow.

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:52 am

If there was one less member of the scum team (by some sort of conversion I assume you are implying) couldn't that person just simply come out and name the remainder of the scum team?

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:55 am

Ok, yeah, could be an SK. If it was, I would like to know who that person is at least so we know they are confirmed. Also, if Juls' previously stated one shot ability was a protect, I would like to know who was protected so we can confirm that person as well.

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:14 am

EmpTyger wrote:VP:
VP Baltar [1264] wrote:<snip>
Also, if Juls' previously stated one shot ability was a protect, I would like to know who was protected so we can confirm that person as well.
Why do you think Juls made a protection?

Porochaz [1249, [color=blue]emphasis added][/color] wrote:Hi gingers, ladies and instruments of some inadvertant usage...

I aM quite obv. DRUNK. DRUNK LIKE A SKUNK.

A few things to let you know...

I have all night choices in.
I think I will be processing them asap. Then the thread will reopen.
I am still searching for a Juls replacementr.
50 page mini replacement is a hard job so would appreciate some help. Will post in the replacement queue when sober... Thanks guys. Love and Kisses.

That doesn't mean she didn't send in her one night action. If she didn't, then she didn't, but if we can confirm people then we definitely need to. Are you opposed to confirming innocents?

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:06 am

emp wrote:VP:
But why would you think that Juls submitted a nightchoice *after* she requested replacement?

I'm not saying it's a definite, just that it is a possibility and if that happened I think it would be good to know. If that's not the case, then her replacement should be able to inform us rather quickly.

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:27 am

I really have the sense that we are in lylo and there is bullshit afoot to con the town into a quick mislynch for a scum win.

I don't like Santos claiming without prompting, though that unfortunately does seem like something he would do as town.

CDB needs to open his damn mouth and stop lurking.

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:29 am

emp wrote:VP:
That's really all you have to say here?

I'm at work. I should have a chance to dedicate full attention this afternoon when I get home. why are you refusing to answer ckd? If you did indeed flip someone, who was it so we know that person is innocent?

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:27 pm

The "I'm really frakking tired, but staying up late to give you people something more substantial post"

First of all, Zone, were you previously an SK and now are town?

Regarding this post Emp, I think the first bolded part where he says he has all of the night choices in indicates that I may have been correct about Juls shooting it off before completely ducking out of the game. Returning to our discussion yesterday about if Juls is scum or not, do you believe she could have been lying about gaining a one shot ability?

ckd wrote:reck that should be your quote for the entire game.

+1

emp wrote:Although, why aren't you more curious why CKD is refusing to answer me- to say what his alleged reasoning for you being 100% guilty is?

Further answering this, I think he is asking you legitimate questions that you need to answer. Did you target anyone last night?

Santos wrote:This is, for lack of a better word, 'curious' to me. I seriously feel its a poke to ChannelBird to 'speak the hell up or forever hold your peace.' What do you all see if for?

What?

zone wrote:My silence is do to the fact that someone I now believe 100% to be town has asked me to stop giving out information.

Ok, apart from bleeding information, if you are confirmed town then please inform me of who you think is likely scum. I'd like to get this right today.

Sidebar 1: I think Santos' reasoning on the investigation is somewhat illogical. I can understand not spending one on me because I claimed miller, but not investigating CDB because he's lurking makes no sense. How is a lurker lynch after two mislynches a helpful approach?

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:18 pm

emp wrote:Isn’t asking him to justify why you’re 100% guilty a legitimate question?

As I said before, i doubt his tune is going to change and I had enough of trying to argue his idiotic points yesterday. Why waste my breath?

emp wrote:But, more generally, why are you focusing all your attention today on trying to get information about people who you think are innocent? Yes, I know, you say you’re trying to clear people. But that’s not how you do it, as town. You do that by having the suspicious players claim first, to force them to guess.

Except I haven't asked anyone to claim anything about their current role. I'm saying if people are confirmed town I want to know that. If zone flipped from SK to town I want to know that. If you were the catalyst for that, I want to know that. If juls did happen to block a kill last night with her one shot, that reasonably confirms that town person and juls. In terms of claiming, I don't really care right now about that. If you think me trying to confirm people as town through their actions without getting specifically into their roles is scummy, then when massclaim comes I'd be more than happy to go first.

In terms of your question, why has that been my strategy, I'm looking at the game from my personal perspective at this moment because there is too much weird shit going on. Too many people are acting overtly scummy, and not enough people are acting town like, imo. I want to narrow down my list of suspects because it's my opinion that we absolutely need to lynch correctly today, whether some people believe we are in lylo or not.

VP Baltar · Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:19 pm

Actually, still mulling over the lylo thing. Two mislynches and a no kill on night two doesn't seem like very likely lylo territory. That's not balanced in the town's favor at all.

Ah well, still need scum strung up today.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:07 am

@emp, If you read my whole first quote about Santos you would see that I said I could see him doing that as town. I never said I didn't believe his claim, just that I don't like he claimed without being prompted to do so. Why intentionally ignore that because you want believe that somehow makes me look scummy?

Also, your complete aversion to confirming people town should be noted by everyone. If it was a RB or a doc protect, don't you think that information serves the town's purpose of finding scum, either by confirming two innocents or by point to one of the scumbags. How is that more beneficial to the scum than the town?

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:13 am

@Emp, you are oversimplifying what I said into a terrible argument. It is the way that Santos did it and the fact that he is claiming to have lied about his role previously. I think if he had approached it differently I'd have felt better about it. Call it an affinity for protocal. I do want to confirm people, but there is also a good way and a bad way of doing it. The bad way entails people just spewing information into the thread with utter disregard for discussion and airing out varying perspectives. For instance, you've been doing this all game and it's really annoying and anti-town. We're not all privy to your information and playing up this secretive gibberish because it supposedly makes sense to you is not being helpful. Do you have some plan for catch scum today? If so, can we please get on with it or can you tell us when it will commence?

Also, why did you deflect back to me when I asked you direct questions in my last post? What is the reason you are refusing to answer ckd?

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:02 am

emp wrote:So are you lying about it being helpful for the town? Or are you just trying to discredit Santos? Both?

When did you stop beating your wife?

emp wrote:And why would you think CKD's questions to me today are so much more answer-worthy than the questions put to him yesterday?

These are unrelated points and no excuse for you to not answer them. Or my questions, which you are doing your best to sanddance around. you've made your excuse for not answering ckd, but why not answer me?

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:20 am

Santos wrote:If you could oblige a more appropriate way to have taken care of things

I would have simply appreciated you saying something like "I believe I have information that can clear a player or two and I'm considering claiming now." or something along those lines, so everyone could have considered the implications of such a claim. Let me ask you this, did you think we were in lylo when you claimed?

Also, what happens when you "find" Jin?

Santos wrote:VP Baltar, what do you think of my final analysis of you?

I don't blame you for suspecting the miller claim, but there is little I can do about that. I stand by that the right move was to claim when it happened. Other than that, I would say look at my play and assess for yourself if you think it's been pro-town. If you think the main point against me is a miller claim, then I would think that would indicate to you that I'm likely telling the truth.

I agree that you shouldn't have wasted an investigation on me. If you feel the need to lynch me today over a miller claim, then so be it, but I'd prefer to lynch scum.

I do agree with your assessment of CDB...though I dont' agree that he wasn't worthy of an investigation.

I'm going to do some thinking out loud here.

Now, let's assume for a minute that the people who have come forward so far are telling the truth.

That means Emp, Zone and Santos are all confirmed. Santos is saying he received Reckoner's investigation ability, so let's tentatively say Reckoner is confirmed as well.

That leaves myself, Juls, CDB and ckd who could still potentially be scum. I know I'm town, so from my perspective that's only three potential suspects.

Now, if Zone was some sort of SK or third party before, that makes it highly likely we are only dealing with a two man scum team. If that were the case, I don't see how we could lose this game because we'd have enough lynches to expend on those three that we'd win.

Ckd's willingness to fall on the sword before CB was either a highly risky scum gambit in an effort to clear himself, or was him being genuine. I'm inclined to believe the latter for now.

If that is true, then my town read of Juls is off. That being said, I think I'd be most comfortable with a CDB lynch from that list first. I see no reason to believe he is town and I think part of his lurking in this game is due to not wanting to get caught up in the strange mechanics.

So, I am with you on that much for now Santos.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:21 am

emp wrote:That’s some theory you’ve got there, that Juls/CDB are mafia. Does that theory have a way of explaining the missing kill last night?

No. In case you haven't noticed, I don't have as much inside information as you do. Are you going to continue being unhelpful and avoid my questions?

@ckd, I agree that it could be a gambit, which is why I think it's time to start disclosing information that is going to help narrow down the list and stop playing "I've got a secret, teehee" for them.

CDB wrote:His frequent, vociferous backing of Juls as town-by-nonspecific-meta

I brought it up once. Emp repeatedly wanted to question me on it.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:05 am

Reckoner, who do you think are scum and why?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:53 am

But if you believe Emp is clear, then you should believe that Zone is clear, correct?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:44 am

Zone, can you answer my previous question? If I am to believe you are clear, who do you think is scum (apart from ckd)? Do you believe we are dealing with a two man scum team?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:41 am

Wait, I thought you just mistyped CDB...you forgot who we lynched yesterday?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:11 am

Santos, as I asked you before, do you think my play this game has been scummy or do you just want to lynch me based on the miller claim?

VP Baltar · Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:12 am

Well this is quite the talkative game....

Let's try a different approach, what are everyone's feelings on mass claim today, good idea or bad idea?

I personally think it might be worthwhile given how many people have already claimed or softclaimed so far, however, I fully admit that I'm lost on the setup at this point and if someone has a good reason why mass claim is a bad idea, I'm willing to listen.

VP Baltar · Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:23 am

*crickets*

VP Baltar · Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:01 am

mod: can we get a prod on CDB and Emptyger? thanks

VP Baltar · Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:17 pm

Santos wrote:because I am just going to go with plain jane mafia rules and assume a miller will not be told he is a miller. So claiming one is just scummy.

Millers are almost always told they are millers. Otherwise it's called bastard modding.

VP Baltar · Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:27 pm

emp wrote:VP:
Do you have a theory that explains the events of the game? I’m not asking you to say that such-and-such definitely happened. Just to speculate on what *could* have happened. What you proposed in [1326] doesn’t have any way to explain the missing kill.

I'm heading out at the moment, but I will be thinking about it and try to see if anything occurs to me. Either way, I'll post something tomorrow.

VP Baltar · Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:56 am

Ok, did some more rereading this morning. Emp seems consistent in some of his cryptic messages in a way that is reassuring.

As far as a theory, it is really hard to say having essentially no information, but one option occured to me. Again, in the case of this theory Emp confirms Zone and Santos confirms Emp. Reckoner is a bit sketchier and I don't inherently trust Santos "confirming" him because Santos has been wrong theoretically far too much in this game for me to take his word.

Now, the thought that occured to me was that if Zone was some sort of SK, he could have also been UNK by the scum group. He was playing a very pro-town game, imo, and wasn't under really any serious suspicion. A kill against an UNK SK would have likely resolved before any Psychiatrist sort of action, so this may explain the lack of a kill last night while still making sense with my previous top suspects.

What confuses me a bit in this game is why the scum would not go after Emp when he has been very clearly indicating he has some sort of PR since Day 1. I guess eliminating the doc would have been a priority N1, but the only thing that makes sense for last night is that the scum group somehow figured out Zone was a killing threat to them. I don't know. Like I said, I think there is more going on here than I am privy to.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on massclaim today Emp since you had said even earlier in the game that it might be useful.

VP Baltar · Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:24 am

addendum to my last post: an UNK SK does make some sense with an investigation role in play, as he or she would still be at a high risk from that.

Also, everyone should keep in mind that we will have a question coming up tomorrow. We should be aware that things can change again. I think the pace should pick up a bit so we can try to figure this out.

VP Baltar · Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:04 am

Zone, am I right in assuming that you are not going to give any insight into your role or possibly lend corroboration to my theory until emp gives you the go ahead?

VP Baltar · Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:47 am

@reckoner-what makes you sure we have 3 scum?

VP Baltar · Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:26 pm

<---waits for Emp to actually answer questions or provide a useful analysis.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:19 am

Emp too, this is pretty ridiculous.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:43 am

So basically you are going to say nothing until BM speaks up, emp?

Do you think it's anti-town at all to claim to have important information but provide no direction whatsoever?

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:40 am

Why do you keep bringing this up Reckoner? What actual evidence do you have to support this, especially when the information seems to indicate that we had a third-party in the game previously and now do not.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:48 am

zoneace wrote:We aren't in LYLO.

just FYI.

PS, there is one less anti-town role today than there was yesterday.

You said you believed Emp before, right Reckoner? Well this ^ is zone corrborating Emp's story. Unless you have a reason to believe there were four anti-town members at the start of the game (which isn't unheard of, but is unlikely), then I don't know why you keep trying to say we are nearing doomsday.

I was looking back through some of Emp's posts and I think I know a little bit better what was going on.

Emp, what are your thoughts on a Reckoner lynch today? Yesterday it was confirmed to you that the answers to questions come before the end of the day and you said you knew he was lying. Does that make him seem likely to be scum to you?

Right now, Emp, zone and Santos are town in my book, so I really wish we could get on with this game and start hearing from them.

VP Baltar · Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:57 am

Even if it were something of that nature, do you think a game is balanced with 1 anti-town faction and 3 scum vs. 8 town?

Do you consider it balanced that a town only gets 3 mislynches even if they manage to stop a NK?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:07 am

Reckoner wrote:I believe Santos' claim, Emp.

Personally, I'd be happy with a lynch on CDB or CKD. Process of elimination tells me it has to be one of them: though I still don't like the Emp/Zone interactions in the slightest, and the jury's still out on VPB/Juls.

reckoner wrote:Hmm. Interesting post, I guess. I am rather suspect of Emp for his softclaim and withholding of information, but I guess time will tell.

How can you believe Santos and not think Emp is innocent? Is there really any lynch that you would not back in this game?

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:34 am

@ reckoner- why would you be suspicious of Emp if he is confirmed innocent in your eyes? I'm not putting any damn words in your mouth. I could see being

annoyed

with his play, lord knows I am, but how can he be suspicious when Santos confirmed him as innocent. It makes no sense.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:08 am

Santos wrote:Somebody mentioned EmpTyger may be Godfather. In my opinion, if this were true, this would make me want to lynch VP Baltar even more.

That makes a lot of sense.

Reckoner wrote:@VPB: I guess "I find them suspect" wouldn't be the right word to use. I should have said "I find them odd, given Santos' investigation".

I'm going to nom you for the title "LOST revisionist" after this game is over.

VP Baltar · Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:03 am

Emp wrote:Why not "I really wish we could get on with this game and start hearing from the players who I'm not sure about."?

Because you clearly have information that would be helpful. I've more than put my theories out there all game, and given you plenty of leeway in terms of not explaining yourself or lending any sort of general insight. I think I'm about done being the only one who is trying to generate new discussion. Your current method of putting questions out there and then providing no analysis on the answers you receive doesn't seem particularly effective.

If you want to lynch BM, then please explain why and I might be willing to back you. My patience is getting exhausted rather rapidly with our current path, however.

I've explained where I think the scum are at and given you the theory as to the night you asked for, what is your response? Who do you want lynched?

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:31 am

Zone, since your boss man is just going to ignore me all game, who do you prefer lynched out of CDB, BM, Reckoner and ckd?

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:34 pm

Emp seems to find BM scummy, does that alter your read at all?

Mod, please prod CDB

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:15 am

Really CDB, I just needed someone to comfort me after that dismal Champions Trophy match on Wed.

Plus I forgot you said you were ill. Sorry.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:34 am

@Emp, I never said I had a meta read of Zone. I've never played with him before. I said he seemed town to me. Can't do anything about that. In fairness, he was the SK, so his scumhunting was likely genuine. Unlike you, I had no insight into there being a third party so the logical conclusion for me to reach from that is that he was town.

Re: Juls- She's not here anymore, so I can delve into that a bit. My town meta on Juls comes mostly from two things 1) a widespread attack 2) a certain emotional response when attacked for what she feels are bad reasons.

The latter one is the most significant to me since I've attacked her for bad reasons many times (as scum), and I know she can get frustrated. However, she has been working on calming that down, so it is becoming less reliable. I noticed it flare up a little bit when you and I were attacking her during the IMDB incident.

The reason I didn't want to reveal my meta on her while she was here is that frustation is an easy thing to fabricate, and since it was mostly off of that one incident I wasn't 100% certain, just that I was certain I did not want to lynch her that day.

Emp wrote:You didn’t like the timing of Santos’s claim (which I’ve already pointed out is incongruous) but you haven’t had anything critical to say about his actual claim. Just vague tentative hedging that “it’s something he would do as town” etc. Time to explain yourself fully.

I don't have something negative to say because even though you have possibly played one of the most fucking frustating games I have ever seen, I was mostly inclined to believe you were town even before his claim. I still don't like the way that he did it because at best it was really anti-town, but that's not really a reason for me to say that I don't believe it. With there being an SK in the game, I can see the need for a cop.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:44 am

Reckoner wrote:I'm not incredibly content to sit back and do nothing. I'm very ready to lynch CKD or CDB.

Why aren't you voting for one of them then? What have you been doing to question them and figure out if they are scum?

VP Baltar · Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:04 am

How much prior experience do you have with Juls, Emp?

VP Baltar · Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:44 pm

BM, I am seriously expecting some good analysis from you or you need to die.

I specifically want your thoughts on CDB and Reckoner.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:52 am

Emp wrote:I’m sure you have a very good explanation for how you left Santos off that list, right?

Right now he's not my top priority. I think you brought up some good points about his claim that I need to back check, but both CDB and Reckoner make absolutely no sense to me.

Speaking of no sense, ckd's last post is ridiculously stupid and almost worth lynching him over.

I have to do a little bit of work this morning, but I'll probably get some more indepth stuff up today. Very happy to see Emp actively participating now.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:51 am

ckd wrote:Santos is claiming that he has received a one shot ability (which was part of your point 5)....if no one else have received one..then, his claim looks worse...I am not asking what they were...I am asking if anyone has had one.

As far I as I know, Juls/BM was the only other person who claimed a one-shot ability...though she never clarified what that was.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:19 am

I'm doing some rereading right now to talk about Santos, ckd. I'll dig it up and include it in my post when I finally get that up.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:57 am

Ok, I want to address what emp has said about Santos' claim a bit closer now that I have some time.

Emp wrote:Everyone excapt Santos:
I really don’t get why you all have so much trouble finding stuff to discuss regarding Santos’s claim. Here, I’ll start you off:

Does this mean that you don't want Santos to respond to the points you made? I think he'd be the best to address them and I'd like to hear his counter arguments.

Now, to address the specific points made by Emp.

Point 1: Santos' post seems to have been written under the assumption that someone would have been dead.

This is fair enough. I'm not sure if it truly does imply that he wrote it at night, but I'd like to hear his response to this. Clearly something happened to prevent a kill, since I doubt the scum would not kill if we weren't headed toward lylo.

Point 2: A contradiction between what Santos did to protect Reckoner and what he claimed to clear Emp.

I'm not as sold on this point. As I said before, Santos plays highly erraticly in my opinion, so I could see him claiming as he did as either scum or town. It's null for me, but if you operate under the assumption that he is scum, this point seems somewhat related to point 1 in the sense that if he wrote it at night, he would be quick to get it out in the open before any town members could say something to cause trouble for him.

Point 3: Santos claims he is Sun and must find Jin

I actually asked him about this earlier. I also want to point to something he said earlier after Juls had claimed:

Santos wrote:If she is claiming Jin that puts me in a tougher spot as there is more stuff in my PM that will clearly make me have to take my vote off of her.

Please explain what this is now. How can your PM dictate who you vote for?

I also realized, looking back, that any time I asked Santos about his Sun/Jin BS, he would go lurking and not answer me. What is even more interesting is that both times I asked him about it, he immediately advocates for my lynch when he does finally come back. So, here are the questions again for your convenience Santos:

VP post 190 iso wrote: Santos what connection to Juls (Jin) are you proposing with your statement? Have you communicated with her in this game?

^ This is after CB suggest that they may be lovers.

VP post 232 iso wrote:Also, what happens when you "find" Jin?

You need to answer all these questions in your next post Santos.

Point 4: Santos backs Reckoner on Day 1, but claims he can't confirm him until after N1

This point is meh to me because Santos was arguing based on the flavor of the game. It

is

an odd coincidence that the same person he was hardcore defending later becomes the person to "give" him his ability, if you will, but Santos seemed more of a VI about the whole flavor thing than anything else to me I guess.

However, in Santos' claim today he says:

Santos wrote:i gained night investigations the same day reckoner revealed he lost his ability...that is why i was doing my best to defend lynching reckoner.

If that's the real reason, then why the defense based on flavor D1? As far as I can recall, you've had nothing negative to say about Reckoner all game despite his many errors and horribad logic. Even if you think someone is town, I would think that occasionally they are going to say something that would ping your scumdar. Why the free ride for Reckoner all game?

Point 5: discrepencies in the relationship between Reckoner and Santos

Emp wrote:Santos getting a cop ability…
…is not the result of the question to Santos, because he didn’t get his question until much later.

He's arguing that he got his ability as a result of Reckoner's question, correct? This has confused me a bit as well.

Emp wrote:…is not the result of the question to Reckoner, because Reckoner allegedly still had the ability N2.

This is interesting. Can you quote me the evidence for this? The timeline is a bit muddy in my memory.

Emp wrote:…is not the result of a town ability, because that person would have said something yesterday when Santos made his fakeclaim. (Especially after Zoneace opened the way with a Santos vote.)

You're saying that if someone gave him the ability they would have voted him for lying about it? I'm not so sure if they would have or not. Regardless of that, I doubt someone gave him the ability, at least intentionally. He has hardly been the most pro-town looking person in this game, and I know if I could hand out abilities he would be nowhere near the top of my list.

Emp wrote:…is not the result of a mafia ability, because mafia aren’t going to give a cop ability to a townsperson. (Unless, of course, Santos himself is mafia.)

Yeah, this seems unlikely.

Now I have a few questions I'd like to add to Emp's inquiry, since looking closer at it has sparked my interest:

Santos wrote:i didnt want to reveal my new ability for fear of losing my ability because our only know doctor was dead, hence why I claimed to be iron townie and lost my ability.

Why do you word this like this? I'd think your main concern would be dying. Do you think the scum have the ability to make town members lose their abilities? Do you think that is what happened to Reckoner?

Santos wrote:I am really satisfied with my result too, btw, because it gives me all the more reason to go after two people today, who I didnt trust yesterday, and have more faith in people today that I had trouble convincing yesterday.

Explain this to me better. How does you getting an innocent result on Emp give you "all the more reason" to go after myself or CDB today?

I was trying to look back at the vote counts for some help figuring out the scum, but they did not prove particularly enlighting due to their infrequency and also the fact that Day 1 ended abruptly before a full lynch could be reached. I'll keep looking, maybe some good insight will come to me eventually.

For ckd:

Juls post 787 wrote:I also received a question yesterday and as a result received a one-shot ability.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:58 am

Couple other things:

Reckoner, what did your cop ability say your result would be when you received it?

Santos, you said this at the start of today:

Santos wrote:Yes, I truly didnt want to believe canadianbovine was guilty

Why did you say that?

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:05 pm

The entire part where he was defending you because you claimed Kate.

I'm not asking for names, what kind of a result did it say you would receive. Mafia/Not Mafia, Guilty/Innocent, Third Party, etc.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:50 pm

Answer my question, Reckoner. Also, I'll take some Sam Adams Winter Lager. Thanks.

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:22 am

Hey, Reckoner, let's try this for the third time. What did the flavor in your PM say you would receive as a result when you investigated someone. Mafia, Not-Mafia, Guilty, Innocent, Not Innocent, Third Party, etc. This is an important question and the way you keep stalling on it doesn't set my mind at ease one bit.

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:32 am

Also still waiting for battlemage even though he's posting elsewhere.

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:57 am

Reckoner, what do you think of the points that Emp raised about Santos' claim? What about my own points?

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:20 am

I didn't ask Emp's questions.

As far as my own, I just wanted to check something. Turned out to be nothing.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:29 am

I agree,

Vote: Santos

Also,

Mod, feel free to prod CDB again.

And having done that, CDB, what are your feelings on a Santos lynch today?

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:20 am

What do you think are the odds that Santos is telling the truth, ckd?

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:47 am

Battle Mage wrote:i still dont understand who is asking the questions. This game is frickin confusing... 0.o

BM

Which questions? There are questions from the mod that get sent out to the players every five RL days. They are questions about Lost and the answers can effect the game.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:45 am

Emptyger wrote:VP:
1) Who do you think is mafia with Santos?

Likely to be ckd or CDB in my mind. However, Santos' answers re: the Juls/Jin situation might change that.

Also, I don't see any reason for you to unvote Santos just yet. I think he needs to know the pressure on him is serious because, much like Reckoner, he has has stalled or ignored questions throughout the game.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:16 am

Yeah, it's like a turns thing. The first five days Player X and Player Y might receive a question. Then five days later Player A and Player B might receive a question.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:21 am

@Emp-ckd for his reaction to the Santos votes and questionable reasoning for thinking Reck is scum. CDB for complete lack of anything in this game. I still feel he is scum in over his head at this point and has taken the decision to just lurk to victory.

As far as pressure, yes, I think taking your vote off shortly after placing it, especially when Santos wasn't about to be lynched or anything, is removing pressure. I undestand your reasons, but I don't think it was necessary to do while you wait for Zone to weigh in.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:33 am

When CDB gets back, I'd like to hear an indepth analysis from him of Santos and if he thinks he is scum or not.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:28 am

All emp said was that he didn't think it was likely that you and Santos were scum together. He didn't say anything about at least one of you not being scum.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:41 am

emp wrote:1) What's the difference to you between CDB and Juls/BM?

CDB has been here all game and has said very little. At least I have a little bit to work off of from Juls being here earlier. BM claims to be confused...so until he sorts it out and actually starts posting some analysis, there is little I can do.

emp wrote:2) How come you helpfully answered BM's question in [1491], but ignored the problems with BM's [1490]? Problems that even Reckoner noticed?

Because helping him to resolve his confusion will obviously lead us to getting actual answers and stances from him. Do you think it is useful to attack a player if he or she may not fully understand the mechanics of the game first?

emp wrote:As for Santos: that wasn't a pressurevote.

I didn't say it was a pressure vote. I said you removing it removed pressure on him to answer. They are different things.

emp wrote:Also, I completely disagree with your statement that there's no point in checking in with a confirmed innocent before deciding on a lynch.

That's not what I said either. I said there was no point in removing your vote while waiting to hear from Zone. I agree that he should speak. Please actually read before you make pointless accusations.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:09 am

@ckd-let me rephrase my question because it was a direct response to yours. Do you think it is highly likely, somewhat likely, somewhat unlikely or very unlikely that Santos is telling the truth about having a cop ability and investigating Emp?

re: your questions-If Santos is telling the truth, then I don't think his or Reckoner's lynch is a good idea. I would much rather lynch CDB, BM or you if that is the case. The reason I say that is that if Santos is telling the truth and has reason to believe that he got an investigative ability from Reckoner losing one, then that is at least somewhat vouching for him as being town.

ckd wrote:What was wrong with my reaction and why do you deem it scummy? How are my opinions of reck questionable?

Because you seem to have no interest in pressuring Santos and quickly want to attack me for pressuring him. What do you think of the points that have been raised against him thus far? I know you said you were going to look into a bit more earlier, so I would like to hear what you found.

Also, your reasons for voting Reckoner seemingly boil down to his "aloofness", which I agree that he has been, but I have no experience with him. Do you have a meta on Reckoner to indicate that he does not usually play this badly?

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:46 am

I would like to hear your case on ckd, Reckoner. Consider that motivation to put it together.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:49 am

ok, well copy and paste it when you get a chance.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:52 am

BM-Post something. There is no reason for you to be lurking like this whether you understand the setup or not. If you post something based on incorrect assumptions of the game mechanics, I'm sure people will correct you. WHO DO YOU THINK IS SCUM?

Reckoner- Post your damn case. You said you had it written already in a txt file, so it should take all of one minute to copy and paste it here. Nobody is so busy that they can't do that.

Santos- still waiting.

CDB- still waiting.

Ckd-if you are town, please focus here a bit and stop getting pissed off anytime someone thinks you have acted scummy. It's not helpful. You should know well enough that it is unlikely Emp and Zone are gambiting and if you don't, then please look back at Emp's "cryptic" posts early in the game. They clearly show him trying to find the SK. If they are scum gambiting, then we've already lost this game because I'm not lynching either of them.

Also, please address my post 1506.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:52 am

god damned ninj'd. Thanks Reck.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:53 am

scratch that. I should actually read before posting.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:58 am

So, reck, you think ckd is scum from reasoning 30 some pages ago. Did this conveniently lost txt file have any additional reasoning in it?

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:45 am

Reckoner, if someone said you were scum, but refused to give a case, would you demand it from them?

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:44 pm

Even if the case was 30 pages ago?

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:30 am

emp wrote:Why have you all game been bending over backwards to deny, ignore, give the benefit of the doubt, or quickly dismiss everything Juls/BM have done suspiciously all game?

See, this is why I hate confirmed people in games because they always type out annoying bullshit for no reason. This is ridiculously stupid and a gross misrepresentation. (And please don't come with quotes from 40 pages ago when I said that Juls was obv town to me on D2 because I didn't want to lynch her then or the fact that I clarified the setup to BM...I gave you very good reasons for both of those).

Anyhow, the reason I want BM to post is because I think we only have two scum and I'm actually trying to figure out who those persons are. Right now our suspects are ckd, CDB, reckoner, santos and BM. All of them have acted scummy, and all of them continue to act scummy so it makes a decision a little hard to narrow down. Hence, I would like all of those players to be talking to make the best decision.

Now please stop trying to shut down discussions simply because you didn't start them. You're not god, nor do you control this game.

Reck wrote:Also, as far as my Word vs Txt file: I use a Mac, and my txt files are set to open up in Word, since I hate Mac's default textedit program.

Wouldn't it have been a .doc file in the first place then if you don't use the generic text editor program?

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:04 am

emp wrote:Nice “I hate confirmed players” tempertantrum.

Please go fuck yourself. I will not be playing any games with you in the future because you are one of the most condescending people I have ever come across on these boards.

I asked BM who he thinks is scum because his first two targets were proven to be either incorrect or based on not understanding the setup, so I would like him to actually explain who he thinks is scum. This has nothing to do with "giving the benefit of the doubt" and everything to do with trying to determine who is scum. You should actually try it sometime instead of being an unrelenting dolt who lacks the most basic of interpretation skills.

Let me give you an example of how fucking stupid your logic has been all game. "Emp you want to vote BM for lurking, but CDB has lurked as well, therefore you are giving CDB a free ride".

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:11 pm

ckd, will you vote Santos now based on that post?

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:10 am

Mod, if you're still in this game, can you please prod CDB and BM.

If we were going to lynch a lurker, which of those two would you rather see swing Reck?

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:51 am

BM wrote:Does alignment affect this? or can scum recieve these questions too?

I'm under the impression that every player will receive questions. If not, it would be easy to find the scum by outing those who didn't have questions.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:52 am

Also, if you haven't read yet, when do you think you will have time to do so? I hope you are at least going to try and get caught up before we hit deadline.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:18 am

BM wrote:Really? This isn't consistent with your aforementioned stance on Juls, and you havent mentioned any concerns with my play. Whats the deal?

Juls wasn't devoid of scummy actions, thought I felt she was playing to her town meta on day 2. However, your mega lurk without even informing people of what was going on was indeed scummy.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:26 am

You replaced Juls on Sept 27 and are just now informing us that you haven't read the game yet. That was like a week and a half ago.....so, yeah, mega lurk. Keeping people up to date is a good thing.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:47 am

So you are calling the mod a liar?

Porochaz on Sept. 29 wrote:Hi guys, BM picked up his role.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:13 am

@emp-I'm sorry I went overboard there. This game has been very frustrating, but I shouldn't have lashed out at you in personal attacks. I look foward to your thoughts on BM.

@Santos-Are you going to actually answer all of the questions put to you or are you simply going to ignore them hoping we don't lynch you? Why the vote on CDB suddenly?

@ckd-looking forward to your post as well.

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:14 am

Santos, answer all of the questions put to you in your next post or I am going to start seriously campaigning for your lynch.

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:13 am

Mod, can we get a vote count

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:23 am

Thanks again, Amished! You're the man. (also, I didn't know truant was your alt. heh, guess we have more games together than I knew. I think I killed you that game.

)

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:46 am

@Amished, I'm willing to let you catch up a bit. I hate when I'm trying to read and people keep piling on pages.

Santos-You need to answer this post from me and Emp's original argument against your claim. I'm still interested in your interaction with Juls, so get to it. I'm not buying this stalling act of yours any more.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:12 am

Amished wrote:Ok, so first off, I'm going to admit to never watching any LOST episode, I replaced in cause of VP.

@anyone: Ok, Santos claimed _______ ? In what post?

@anyone (xRx most specifically, but whateves): With xRx's cop claim, has he given any results to clear somebody (clearly there's been no guilty...)?

@VP: Who's your top suspect? Santos for his claim? Somebody else?

See, this is where you are going to get into the sheer put your head in a vice-ness of this game! (I warned you before hand)

Santos first (yes, first) claimed to be an iron townie here. Then the next day he said he was lying and is really a cop here today.

Reck, claimed to have tried investigating me but never got a result and then he magically became vanilla the same night. Here is the "no result" and here is where he says I was the target

As far as my top suspect, Santos is pretty up there because of his claim and the fact that he won't answer the questions I have put to him about it.

Emp and ZA are town, though the latter seems to be intent on not participating anymore. ckd is neutral for me. I had originally felt that Juls was playing to her town meta, but that was much earlier and BM is doing nothing for me. Your predecessor was consistently on my scum list throughout the game.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:56 am

Amished wrote:I know you warned me. You were scum in every game I've played with you so I've learned not to trust you out of game...

heh, guess I can't really fault you for that.

Amished wrote:What was an iron townie supposed to be?

un-nightkillable. You know, this also makes perfect sense for him to claim as scum on Day 2 because he would have known there was a vig or SK floating around there from the LL kill.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Amished wrote:@VP: When you turned miller or whatever; do you believe it was because of *your* question, or because of somebody else's question? And it was in the middle of the day?

It was expressly because of my question. The reply I received said that I became a miller as a result of the answer to my question.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:14 pm

Amished wrote:The thing that bugs me about this is that for a question to turn anybody into a miller as a negative action (which is what I'm assuming compared to if you answered it another way) there'd have to be a cop, and wouldn't be able to be "lost". Transferred I can see; but not lost. (besides being killed, ofc.)

eh. I tend to agree, but lord knows there have been millers without cops before *cough*ViPod*cough*. More the exception than the rule, but still.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:00 pm

Yeah, I don't think being on or off the island has anything to do with anything. I gained my "millerness" when I came to the island.

I agree that iron townie makes no sense, but he is also claiming to have pulled it out of his ass in the first place.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:38 pm

Amished wrote:What's the motivation of claiming BP on a night with 2 kills anyways; then going to vanilla the night after? To make him look more important

This is a fair question, imo. Santos, add this to your ever growing list of questions you're ignoring. Why claim to be iron townie at all if you were faking anyhow? What purpose did claiming to have lost a PR serve?

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:50 am

Yeah, he hasn't repsonded to anything yet. Luckily, he's on his way home right now to give an outstanding reply.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:40 am

Amished wrote:From that, VP, it looks like I finally have a game with you being town; though you're a miller so I don't know if that fully counts.

haha, if you don't count me as town when this game is over and you find out for sure because I became a miller I'm going to shake my fist!

Other than that I pretty much agree 100% with your reads this game. Thanks for catching up so quick.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:33 am

I don't understand anyone who is considering emp or ZA as potential scum. It seems simply ridiculous to me at this point. Seriously. Look back at Emp's cryptic posts and you will see he was slowly searching out ZA since day 1. If they are scum, then its the best gambit ever.

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:42 am

Emp wrote:1) BM to claim.
Any objections?

No problem here.

Emp wrote:2) Everyone to give their opinion about a traitor.
I have a really neat theory about Santos’s “Sun searching for Jin” and his desperation D2 for roleclaims. A theory that I like much better than him expecting us to believe that he got a role that lets him (1) immediately confirm Jin innocent, (2) reciprocatingly confirm Kate innocent after N1, (3+) gain 1 alignment investigation per night starting N2, and (4) whatever his actual question might grant. Besides all the other issues with his claims and play

I don't have any experience with a traitor, so I had to look the role up on the wiki, but I can see where you are getting that from. It does sort of fit with how much rolefishing he was trying to do and also the no kill.

I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense from a balance perspective to have an SK + a two man scum team that can't night talk until the traitor is found. That seems town heavy, but adding another scum seems scum heavy. Bleh. (Though I like the idea of scum racing to find their partner while a psychologist races to find the SK)

Emp wrote:Open question: what have the mafia been up to all this game?
Case 1: If Reckoner is mafia, they’ve been diverting attention from him onto convenient targets.
Case 2: But if Reckoner’s not mafia- they’ve never had a serious bandwagon on any of them, have they?

I think the convenient bandwagons enable either of these cases to be likely. And lord knows this has been the game of convenient bandwagons. Both also come back to Santos either way.

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:03 pm

I'm not Christian Shepard.

I don't have time to go into a lot of detail, but I still feel like Santos is scum despite his mega post efforts.

As far as name claiming, I'm fine with it...though I don't see what difference that is going to make and I would like to hear the opinions of the other unclaimed's before we move ahead.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:46 am

Santos wrote:So my opinion of you makes me more scum now that I think you're town? That sounds like your opinion of me this entire game, but opposite. Why is that?

See the problem isn't that. Look at your scum list. You call everyone townish except for the the two confirmed town, ONE OF WHOM YOU CLAIM TO HAVE INVESTIGATED AS INNOCENT.

How freaking ridiculous do you think you can be and get away with it?

Santos wrote:And it seems no one cares that RECKONER's and my role emails are drastically different in results.

The fact that you are very quick to repeat this and act like no one is paying attention seems to me that you are hoping it would be enough to get Reck lynched today. If anyone is lying in this situation it is you I think. Let me point out why!

Day 1, reckoner claims, and says the following:

reckoner wrote:I'm Kate Austen, currently the guardian of Claire's son Aaron, and I'm a basic cop that receives simple guilty or innocent results. That's the extent of the flavor.

Despite that, you were saying he was cleared AFTER you got your cop ability which you claim has a result of MAFIA or NOT MAFIA. Wouldn't that raise any alarm bells for you if you were telling the truth about inheriting the ability?

Also, your statement that the mod messed up your result irritates me. While I don't think our mod has been doing the best job ever, he was certainly keeping up much better at the time when you sent your investigation.

Santos wrote:VP Baltar, can you elaborate as much as possible how your conversation with the mod went?

well, I didn't have a conversation. I was asked my question, answered, and shortly received a reply saying I became a miller.

Emp wrote: I’d rather we move on to answering the “with who (and anyone else?)” question.

Amished gives me the warm and fuzzies and Reckoner really just seems to be confused to me. I think you both ckd and BM's silence speaks volumes and should be our lynches afterward. We'll see what BM claims, as well as his one shot ability.

Emp wrote:If the mafia are Santos/X, then why would Santos defend Reckoner so convolutedly?

Town buddying. Clearly Reckoner was the most susceptible to it and if Santos (or any scum member) has any kind of thief ability, he saw the chance to form a game-long friend. I think it was simply poorly executed.

Emp wrote:VP:
2 mafia + traitor : 8 town (including psychiatrist) : 1 SK seems very balanced.

Eh, I think that is a bit scum heavy for my taste (especially given Shanba's statistical analysis on the frequency of scum wins in themed games), but I suppose some mods might consider it balanced.

Emp wrote:Well, right, but who else with him? Or alternatively, who else not with him?

See above, but to add to that, I think that Santos and Reckoner would have to out of their minds to try a gambit like that. It's possible, and both of them are new enough that it might sound like a good idea, but it's extremely risky. Given the information we have at this moment, I'd be most comforatable with a BM lynch after Santos flips scum. From there move to a ckd if necessary.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:33 am

role-thief was briefly brought up shortly after Reck said he lost his role. I think by Emp if my memory serves me.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:50 am

Here is the post. Shortly after Reckoner's claim. Kind of funny that Emp was talking about a psychiatrist there.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:09 am

Emp wrote:Who are you arguing with? If Santos, why?

After us having gone in circles all game, it's fun to finally beat up on some scum for a change.

Emp wrote:1) Either he wasn't townbuddying with Reckoner.
2) Or his attempt to buddy to me wasn't his idea- he was just doing what another mafia told him to do.

Here's the point: Either way, Santos/BM isn't possible.
If they're mafia together, it's with a third member. Either as 3 mafia, or 2+traitor.

Yeah, that's fair enough. Like I said, I would consider that a scum heavy setup, but I suppose other mods might not.

If you think two mafia, then it would have to be ckd, imo. Looking at his "I think we should lynch reckoner in the off chance Santos is town", I could see that. If it's an off chance, then I don't see why one would be inclined to believe that is the case.

Santos wrote:Here is what I think is funny: Before EmpTyger came out to say that he saved ZONEACE, I came out with my cop claim and verified EmpTyger was 'innocent' (recently the mod pmed me saying he made a mistake and said 'not mafia'), but NOT ONE PERSON has taken that to heart in this game.

1) if you are scum, you probably knew emp was innocent. I was leaning town on him by day 2 and even said so in thread.

2)Here is what I think is funny: you never explained why you cleared Reckoner on Day 2 when your PM said Mafia, Not Mafia and his said Guilty, Innocent. Do explain!

Santos wrote:And you trust that my result is confirmed innocent and not Godfather?

He's confirmed because he's the psychiatrist and zone was an SK. Do you not believe that? What evidence is there to the contrary, because there is plenty for it.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:22 am

Santos wrote:And I thought I explained that earlier.

No, you didn't. Please go ahead.

Here is the timeline:

Day 1 Reckoner claims cop with guilty or innocent investigations

Day 2 you say you got a cop ability and reckoner is clear

Day 3 You say your cop PM tells you your results are Mafia or Not mafia and that it is strange Reckoner said guilty or innocent.

What is it strange Day 3 and not strange on Day 2 after you received the PM?

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:43 am

We're not mass claiming, scum. If you flip town, then Reckoner is obv scum for differing PM.

I don't see it happening, however.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:03 pm

Santos wrote:VP, no thoughts on my weird feeling about your comment on CDB's play, earlier? Should I trust it?

ur so pretty.....

Keep going though, this is thoroughly entertaining.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:14 am

xRECKONERx wrote:OOOOOH. I just got that.

Emp, he waited to claim because then he could at least get one investigation done.

But why not wait and get more investigations? Wouldn't have been more beneficial to claim in actual lylo? I think that is what Emp is getting at. It's not like Santos was probably on any scum's "must kill" list if he was town.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:33 pm

He didn't actually claim. Just said 'nilla, later ya'll....

Unvote, Vote:BM

Let's get some flavor.

VP Baltar · Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:49 pm

emp wrote:VP:
I can't remember: what are your thoughts on the full mafia group?

Pretty sure you've asked me this lots of times. Santos + BM or Ckd given their reactions to Santos. Amished is a possibility given the huge gaping hole left by his predecessor, but I think that he isn't today's lynch. Reckoner seems far too confused about, well, everything to be scum.

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:39 am

lmao. That's some nice rolefishing you are attempting to carry off there before you are lynched Santos. If you are going to spend so much time fighting against it, I suggest you try to say something useful.

Ckd, you really have nothing to contribute?

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:03 am

BM wrote:VP, i believe my rolename has already been claimed. You want paraphrasing of PM content?

Yes, please.

VP Baltar · Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:22 pm

emp wrote:Does anyone (other than BM/Santos/CKD) see a problem with a mafia consisting of BM/Santos/CKD?

Nope. When do we lynch?

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:36 am

Yeah, I don't understand the need for that either. You're going to have to give more information about your question and the need to out any potential role info before anyone should do that, Reck. You're starting to sound like Santos now.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:37 am

Also, I'll address the other stuff that came up over night in a bit after I get my work done for this morning.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:46 am

@Santos-I don't feel the need to reply to you because you're simply speaking any nonsense you can come up with to avoid your lynch. If you were making any sort of legitimate argument as to why I or anyone else was scum, I would be more than happy to debate you about it. As it is, you first launched a massive rolefishing campaign (which failed miserably) and now you are pursuing the fairly typical scum posting of "what happens when I flip town"? I know it sucks when you are caught scum and people take you as a foregone lynch, but you have to try harder than that.

Also, this:

Santos wrote:Oh, and I'm still looking for something substantially impressive from VP Baltar other than an attempted victory at a pissing contest with myself.

psst, I'm winning

shows that you have a pretty low estimate of my intelligence if you think it's going to irritate me.

One other thing, I'm curious as to why you would be so heart set on myself or Amished being scum when you are claiming that Reckoner BLATANTLY LIED about his cop ability. You're simply not making any kind of sense and yet wonder why people think you are scum.

ckd wrote:hey emp, why dont you just vote me then? Afraid of being on another townie lynch?

also, did you mention reck's lie in that long post? think I missed it....so I guess you think that LyingReck is town? why?

and emp, I keep saying this but you keep ignoring it....I havent changed my mind...I THINK THAT RECK IS A BETTER LYNCH..

why do you have such a problem with that?

*headdesk* Are you really going to do this again? It might have gotten you out of a lynch once, but don't expect the reverse psychology to work a second time.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:01 am

I'm Jack Shephard.

I breadcrumbed it in my iso 11:

VP wrote:
Juls wrote: NOTHING major HAS HAPPENED yet this game. So I really don't get how Channel and Locke are acting as if we have had some major scum slips going on.

J
ust where exactly where they doing that?
A
nyone can see that the issue
C
hannel and locke were getting at was zoneace
K
NOWINGLY extending the rvs when there was really no reason for it.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:17 am

can you give us the details of your question now.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:29 am

Reck, does your question indicate if one of us is scum or just that one of us has to die? If it's the latter, I think Amished is prob town and you may as well remove that miller suspicion if you can.

Also, does it say you absolutely have to kill one of us?

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:31 am

Yeah, I totally missed what BM said. That's hilarious.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:31 am

And thank you for unvoting Amished.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:44 am

Yeah, save Amished. I assume it will be some kind of protect on him..which will probably be of no use now that BM's partner knows about it, but you may as well remove any doubt around me being a miller.

That will leave five of:

Santos
Reckoner
Ckd
Amished
Emp
Zone

alive tomorrow with (most likely) 1 scum. Then you lynch Santos, and if necessary, Ckd. Then you get the power. Then you get the women.

VP Baltar · Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:59 am

Are we waiting on anything else or should we lynch now....may as well just give the mod everything together in one package.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:14 am

You want to roll over like your buddy as well Santos? I guess it is unfortunate that he outted the fact that you have no safe claims. That goes a long way to explaining why you have suc a shaky story with this cop claim.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:18 am

Unvote

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:53 am

Reck please stop being a jerk to the mod when he has already apologized to you publically for it. I realize it is frustrating, but we all have issues from time to time that make playing mafia difficult and I don't think you need to repeatedly criticize him over it. Your displeasure has been noted multiple times.

VP Baltar · Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:57 am

I realize that, and I agree with you, but you don't have to keep beating up on him for it. This game should be over soon anyhow since BM and Santos should be slam dunk lynches.

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:28 am

LMAO.

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:55 am

I would appreciate if Juls came back since BM had so much trouble with the flavor.

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:43 pm

So, I want to see the whole setup and theory behind it, but from what I have seen so far this game was doomed from the start. I'm not knocking you Porochaz, cause I think you were trying something ambitious, but I don't see how this was expected to be a balanced or fair game in any way.

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:48 pm

SK had major advantage to become confirmed and then become SK again, that's all I'm going to say about that. That's simply a ridiculous option to put into a game...especially since you gave him UNK-ability TWICE. I don't see how you didn't see that as a problem when writing the setup.

There is no way that town should lose when the SK is found, has a cop and doc (which is another no-no), and has one of the scum claim scum.

I also didn't like the fact that the questions near the end gave people clear options apparently. That is, ZA choosing to become SK again and Reck getting to choose who he wants to kill. My question was "do you want to read Hurley's suicide note". I had no clue what was going to be the outcome either way I answered with that.

Out of curiosity, was this game reviewed beforehand?

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:18 pm

Well ok, but regardless it is still a bunch of shit to allow the SK to regain abilities after being converted and confirmed. Even if it had been earlier in the game, you could have just not killed until the night before lylo and then got the win that way. Plus, any game that allows for a prisoner's dilemma is broken, imo.

VP Baltar · Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:01 pm

I'm not a fan, no. However, this game particularly encouraged it, which is fucking ridiculous. I know you won, so you are of course going to have a bias toward it, but objectively speaking the game was not balanced at all. Scum team had no chance unless Mafia Traitor came to their side and town lost despite most everything going in their favor. Not exactly an equal opportunity from the start.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:47 am

zone wrote:Yes, lets do everything possible to devalue my win

Thanks guys.

No offense, but you mostly just lurked as the game went on and I don't see how you couldn't have won when you got the opportunity to become the SK again. It's nothing against you really, but the chips were definitely stacked in your favor.

@Emp-you deserve praise for your play. I'm not denying you that because you were very important to the town's play in this game. My main problem was your inability to look past some of the more trivial matters. I think my whole problem with you was that you weren't listening to me or accepting anything I was saying as potentially being the truth. I agree that I was way off-base with my early reads and that's my problem (though I would argue that you had extra insight into zone that I did not have and he was playing a pro-town game early on). Reads are fluid though and I certainly wasn't going to excuse either of them for the rest of the game based on early reads.

I really do apologize about getting so angry at you because that wasn't fair and I understand you were just playing a pressure game. It was just like an extreme case of Volkan going on and I wanted to scream at you to actually consider both sides of the matter as potentially being the truth before you reached your conclusion. haha.

I knew that you didn't suspect me for the miller thing, because that was dumb really, but I chose to die because I knew at that point nothing I could say would actually relieve your suspicions of me. As a vanilla, I was happy to die because I knew it would help focus the town better.

emp wrote:D1 you had tried to insist that either the copclaim or the doctorclaim were false, and fished for whether the cop would be unprotected.

I stand by this because a cop/doc combo where the cop is protected is fucking bad modding to the extreme. I would hope that Porochaz, who has been on the site for quite some time, would know this. I'm not apologizing for that because it never should have happened in the first place, nor would it be likely that the town would out them BOTH on day 1.

In terms of ckd, I really stopped feeling he was scum after his whole "bet" thing and cb's flip because it was just too over the top to be a scum gambit. Unfortunately, ignoring him wasn't going to do much for me and I doubt he was ever going to believe that I wasn't scum.

I agree 100% with emp's comments on Santos' play. The lying and ridiculous stances you took in this game made it impossible not to lynch you. Town had no choice. In my opinion, if you want to improve your play, you really need to stop assuming you are so obvious town that no one would ever lynch you. I think this is the problem I see most consistently in your play. You tend to make very bold moves as if you are running the game and they always come back to bite you. Playing conservatively at times and considering the theories/opinions of others is a good thing.

Amished not being able to Roleblock and kill as the last scum was another fail in the setup. It gave the scum team little to no chance of winning in endgame. I believe in the philosophy that the outcome of games should come down to lynch choices and not night actions. Plain and simple.

ckd wrote:I think this game was the feather that broke the camel back in regards to lurkers. Who could get a read on someone who had to be replaced and didnt post? I think I might adapt a new, lynch lurkers D1-D3 policy (all things being constant, ie no obviously scum) and see how that works.

I agree with this and it is exactly why I hate people lurking. I personally feel it is very unsportsman like when every scum in the game essentially takes it upon themselves to go on massive lurk. Making yourself intentionally unreadable is a very lame tactic and detracts majorly from the overall fun of the game. I would never give credit to any scum that wins largely thanks to lurking.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:54 am

I wouldn't have tried to confirm reckoner at all. He was claiming to be vanilla anyhow. If he got lynched, it wouldn't have been a terrible loss. You should have just kept your investigation to yourself.

Honestly, you are the perfect player to get a cop role because I think you normally play just scummy enough to not be on the top of a scum kill list.

VP Baltar · Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:04 am

I can understand your frustration with the miller claim a little better now that I know you were the cop, Santos. I think you were spending too much time focusing on it though.

Millers do know they are millers a lot on MS actually, so you should have just been basing your read on my play in the game. Also, the fact that I claimed miller shortly after my question should have at least read as somewhat honest to you as it wouldn't make a lot of sense for scum to do that rather than claiming miller at the start.

VP Baltar · Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:39 pm

I approve of receiving gratitude for doing nothing.