Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

[Santos]

confirmed

Please give me time to catch up.

[Santos]

Unvote

FoS: Locke Lamora

, because the evidence against you and your arguments refuting the accusations still make me think you've just been following along in this thread as pointed out by curiouskarmadog. However, as that is most of what is suspicious about you, I would rather keep my eye on you and what you do in the future as opposed to lynching you.

Also, its 7 votes to lynch right, with 12 being alive...6 votes +1 required for majority, etc.

Vote: RECKONER

for his initial reason to move a vote on Jason. Its too opportunistic.

Furthermore, ZONEACE, *facepalm* but I'm glad to see you're more cool headed.

Vp Baltar, hey hey, good to see you

Everyone else and the questions posed to Drench, if you want them answered then please oblige me with presenting the cases again and I will do my best to answer for my predecessor's play, votes, etc.

*after hitting the preview button*

Unvote

I need a vote count and a confirmation of what L-??? we're at so far on RECKONER, please.

FoS: RECKONER

for the same reasons. Right now I'm not comfortable placing a vote in my first post of the game without a more recent vote count on my behalf, if you please

Cheers, I await questions, responses.

[Santos]

prod received. i don't have time to catch up at the moment; I will read the last few pages later.

[Santos]

Well, you can replace me or let me catch up.

[Santos]

Whoa, we're going to lynch RECKONER (aka Kate) to prove if Richard Alpert (Jason) is scum as well?

This is a scum led mafia if I've ever seen one.

FoS: those who are advocating lynching Kate at all

Vote: VP Baltar

for apparently having no problem with lynching one of the most pro town roles ever.

[Santos]

How is saying Kate is pro town indicative of myself being scum?

Have you watched the show or researched it?

[Santos]

I would rather lynch myself before lynching Kate. Also, why not let the claimed doc and cop live and see what type of results they provide the next day so we can have something more substantial to work with in cases to lynch/not lynch them?

1) Lynch RECKONER / Jason today proves only one's alignment
2) Not lynching RECKONER / Jason today obligates them to give us results.

ALIGNMENT ON THE SHOW IS NOT NECESSARILY INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT IN THE GAME.

This would just be a blatant bastardization of the game to fans who joined this game :p, but you are right. I cannot 'outthink' the mod. Touche', sir.

[Santos]

Also, if we're to follow the currently proposed route of lynching RECKONER today, then the scum have it easy taking out the 'claimed doctor'.

IMO, if Jason lives tonight, then it only casts more suspicion on himself. Right now he is in a lose/lose situation with only the possibility of protecting someone like the cop. I vote we leave him alone for today as well as the claimed cop and go after someone else.

ZONEACE, would you play this entire game believing scum have safe claims?

[Santos]

So if I 'safe claimed' as someone like Jin or Sun, would you think more of me as scum or town based off your belief?

[Santos]

canadian, right away you're biased opinion of Ben does not work because I could easily keep whining that Kate is a good guy if we're to base this game off the show.

However, ^this is a good example as to why I believe we have to believe in at least SOME of the flavor of the game because Ben's alignment would be much more ambiguous as opposed to say...Kate's.

That's what I was meaning, btw, ZONEACE.

[Santos]

whoa, settle down.

[Santos]

Yeah, so...Emptyger is scum:

1) Obvscum for bandwagoning and being opportunistic instead of taking anything into consideration of RECKONER's explanation.
2) Furthering from point one, he completely ignores the fact that some people are now 'back on the island' which tells me he is scum and doesn't know that townies are back on the island.

Vote: EmpTyger

I also am back on the island (as well as some others should be)...so yeah, I believe RECKONER. Also, remember John Locke turned the wheel in the mod's recent post? Well, now he is dead, and people are back on the island. I bet there is at least another person in this game right now that is back on the island.

Also, this wagon on RECKONER is false. Unless there is a cult in this game, RECKONER is on the town's side; yes, this is because he is Kate, so you can suck a golf ball through a garden hose if you refuse to believe he is anti-town.

(Also, I have this strange feeling John Locke is not dead...but you'd have to have watched the show to know what I mean )

[Santos]

What do you mean, ZONEACE?

[Santos]

I'm still confused as to how you 'know' they're a scum team. RECKONER claimed Kate which is one of the most town roles in the show.

Does this mean we should have EmpTyger claim a character to see if your suspicions can be corroborated?

Sorry if I am appearing dense in understanding your 'point' or lack thereof, but I'm pretty tired.

[Santos]

I understand your opinion, but it won't change my opinion until someone is dead...goes the same for you. We're not going to see eye to eye, but at least we understand each other.

[Santos]

I had two reasons why RECKONER is town. You folks shouldn't lambaste me with criticism so fast to say my arguments are fubar.

[Santos]

Yes, curious.

[Santos]

No, on the flavor.

[Santos]

might be a silly question, please tell me your definition of flavor.

For this game, half of everything I've been defending based on the theme of this game. The other half is what I would bet the rest of this game on - knowing RECKONER is town not based on anything else than knowing what's gone on so far: with what RECK has said and what others/myself have said/know.

[Santos]

Also, since the theme of the game and player's roles have

NOTHING

to do with alignment, then who has not come back to the island? I believe somebody said they haven't, EmpTyger? Would you oblige us with a name since alignments have nothing indicative to show of innocence or guilt with them?

[Santos]

I'm leaning more towards 'know' as opposed to 'think', everyone because losing an ability seems

highly

probable at this point.

[Santos]

are you rolefishing?

[Santos]

I know this game does things on and off the island. So suck it

[Santos]

lol, Juls doesn't want to mass claim. Noted.

[Santos]

Yeah, I would vouch for RECKONER in losing an ability now being on the island.

[Santos]

If anyone wants my name and lost (lol pun?) ability, I have no problem providing it.

[Santos]

Sure. But for the show's sake, we're pretty much on the island for the rest of season 5 so I would say abilities are probably gone.

[Santos]

Does that work for you, VP?

[Santos]

Who...does...number...two...work...for?!??

[Santos]

Sorry, I couldn't resist posting Austin Powers in thar

[Santos]

ZONEACE, you're tunneling an awful lot. Why are you not looking at other players like curiouskarmadog and canadianbovine who have not been doing much at all except asking random questions?

When did you learn you lost your ability?

When I logged in to check my messages and came to this thread for the start of the day.

fine.

Juliet Burke, Vanilla Townie.

my ability did not change in the night, i have always been a VT.

Hey all, that would mean she is more likely to be scum than Kate, amirite? LOL

canadianbovine is a good choice so far, but

Vote: curiouskarmadog

, you're reading up on the thread and answering questions and asking them, but you're not playing the board; you just voted canadianbovine and moved on to talk more with VP Baltar. Who cares about VP when you've already placed your dedicated vote somewhere?

Also, curious, are you more inclined to keep your vote on canadianbovine now?
Who is number two on your suspects list? Would the name of a person's claim and innocence or guilt on a death result make you more inclined to believe flavor or not?

Also, Juls, why are you opposed to claiming? Would you agree or disagree that

Juliet Burke

would be vanilla townie or a traitor, or just complete scum? And, how do canadianbovine's posts suit you now that he claimed?

[Santos]

RECKONER, no, just a change in role.

[Santos]

Perhaps we're looking in the wrong places. Has no one else noticed the sides people have taken so far in this new day?

[Santos]

People who would believe that name claims predict the validity of alignment:

Santos
RECKONER?

People who would

not

believe that name claims predict the validity of alignment:

ZONEACE

Inherently neutral people (or ones who have not clearly expressed a view whatsoever) on the above two reasons:

VP Baltar
Juls
canadianbovine
ChannelDelibird
curiouskarmadog
EmpTyger

Now, where I have placed people, would I be correct from this analysis so far, or wrong? The people placed in the neutral zone: are you happy where you are, or do you want to believe name claims prove or don't prove anything regarding alignment?

Also, this analysis is a two-parter, but I need your help with 'final choices', for lack of a better word, in where you stand on the above issues.

Also,

mod

, it seems I have not been added to the original post as Drench is still listed there.

[Santos]

Also, I have an enormously favorable argument to present

in favor

of ZONEACE's position, but I would like to hear from those 'neutral' folks, please.

[Santos]

INORITE?

[Santos]

Well, I can tell you what I'm thinking now, or let the others answer their sides.

Plus, the conclusions have yet to be revealed.

And no, I'm not toying or trying to distract, but since it has been the main focus of our conversation today, I have a way to alleviate our problems.

However, in between those concerns, we might figure out who we need to lynch today to help us come to a single conclusion.

[Santos]

Juls and canadianbovine have not answered correctly. Maybe they should read again.

[Santos]

Holy crap, I forgot ChannelBird was playing.

Channel, what is your opinion on name claims and would you believe or not believe the flavor indicating alignment?

CanadianBovine, you have not answered the above, either. Please answer.

Also, CanadianBovine is appealing to emotion. Just thought I'd point that out since no one else seem to have done so.

[Santos]

Thank you. I will post my theory, POA, tomorrow now that everyone is playing.

[Santos]

Okay, I am here and ready to present what I was thinking.

[Santos]

Perhaps we're looking in the wrong places. Has no one else noticed the sides people have taken so far in this new day?

Well I'm happy to look at any new angles you might have, because quite frankly I'm getting exhausted of trying to come at this in a different way. What "sides" are you seeing and what conclusions are you coming to from that?

*updated list*

People who would believe that name claims predict the validity of alignment:

Santos

People who would not believe that name claims predict the validity of alignment:

RECKONER
ZONEACE
VP Baltar
Juls
canadianbovine
ChannelDelibird
curiouskarmadog
EmpTyger

*hopefully that is correct.

What is my reason to believe name claims prove the validity of alignment?

1) My own character name.
2) The people who have died so far I would have guessed they were town based on Season 5 of Lost.

Now anyone here can argue that its absurd to use that argument to prove my innocence. I agree, ZONEACE. So I mentioned that we should see if anyone would consider claiming names would prove innocence. Once everyone provided their side, which enormously favored the anti-flavor part, it had me wonder about mafia safe claims, because they would definitely have to have them in this game to survive. Duh, right? What's your point, Santos?

The point I am seeing is what folks were extremely hesitant to name claiming even though we have a dead doctor and a claimed cop?
What people have no problem with name claims?
What people probably have a name to claim (safe claim) and are just not comfortable in sharing that safe claim til later in the game?

The possibilities I see, so far, is with CanadianBovine's claim as Juliette.

Juliette was originally against the Lost survivors. As season 5 came around she became a friend of the survivors. So this is the dangerous thing about the flavor of this game that contends with certain alignment, obviously.

CanadianBovine claims Juliette. I believe she is town. Canadian's play is not very town. So that is the discrepancy I am troubled with. It seems like the perfect safe claim for a scum, imo. But at the same time the flavor fits entirely pro town just as I saw with Kate. However, between Kate and Juliette my opinions would have been more so to believe Kate-town as opposed to Juliette-town. If I get this far basing my judgment on a player, then I cannot argue anything else because it is purely flavor and nothing indicative of guilt or representative of scummy. So how do we find scum? Well, a lot of people have wanted RECKONER lynched because he has played scummy and has claimed Kate. (are you watching, ZONEACE?) What if RECKONER is scum with an enormously awesome safe-claim such as 'Kate Austin, the cop'?

This could very well be true. But now the problem that is dissuading me from voting RECKONER is the plain fact that abilities have been lost (lol) and

he

was the first to mention it. So where did they go? Are they on hiatus? Possibly. But that puts the town at a serious disadvantage tonight if that is the case. Also, considering that I have lost my ability, I had to step in and take action against the people who were going to lynch RECKONER because he lost his cop ability.

That would be incredibly scummy

if I had not had something changed for my role as well. So I hope you all see my point in that regard?

So, as it is now apparent that flavor is entirely non-consequential to alignment, I would now be in favor of mass claiming and applying the claimed names to how people have played today.

I will go first.

Santos, originally iron townie off the island, but now a plain vanilla townie on the island.
RECKONER, originally a cop off the island, now a vanilla townie on the island.
Canadianbovine, on or off the island? claimed vanilla townie
VP Baltar, off the island, claimed miller?

I seriously believe we can find the scum, but not based on their flavor or claim, but just with the way they have played and whether or not we can catch them in a lie.

Thoughts?

[Santos]

That would be incredibly scummy if I had not had something changed for my role as well. So I hope you all see my point in that regard?

Should read:

That would be incredibly scummy play of RECKONER and he should have been lynched today, but since something changed for my role as well, I was vehemently defending a RECKONER lynch to save a cop that is possibly on hiatus. You get me?

[Santos]

Did I stutter? lol

[Santos]

As for the questions, I STILL haven't received one and I'm waiting for everyone to respond and tell us whether or not they have so we can have a comprehensive list of WHO has been asked a question and who hasn't.

But they could lie in divulging something like that to you.

So are you going to give us a name?

[Santos]

My ability was that I was iron at night and could not be killed. Other than the iron part, my role was just a plain townie.

[Santos]

I haven't read up since my last post. I just logged in here and made it a point to get my post posted as I promised yesterday.

I guess my point in claiming just names today was not seen.

I still don't see what is harmful about name claiming today, Juls, as apparently we have a dead doctor and an outed 'claimed' cop at the mafia's grasp. So what is there to hide?

[Santos]

Also, Reckoner being the first to mention "lost ability" means NOTHING, he mentioned, AFTER he was a prime suspect for his scummy play and using his "cop" ability to target someone THAT HE ADMITS WASN'T ONE OF HIS TOP TWO SUSPECTS. So after wasting his cop ability, he now, conveniently doesn't have it anymore to clear himself, and we just have to trust he was telling the truth.

Yes, I know. I would have happily placed a vote on him except my role had changed.

Someone said we all should know that our roles can change? Where does it state that?

[Santos]

I will not drop the idea that I would play the rest of this game based on the events that happen. Everything else surrounding that is hearsay until we know more.

Our remaining power roles maybe?

ORLY?

Do you realize what you have just said?

[Santos]

Like zone said, lets get a comprehensive list going.

Then do it, lol.

[Santos]

Ah yes, mine does say that as well.

[Santos]

I still dont see how Kate is a obv pro-town role.

She isn't. I supported why that was not plausible enough of a reason to believe RECKONER is town.

I don't see how claiming on D2 does ANYONE but help the scum know who to kill.

I still don't see what is harmful about name claiming today, Juls, as apparently we have a dead doctor and an outed 'claimed' cop at the mafia's grasp. So what is there to hide?

Our remaining power roles maybe?

Juls, are you insinuating that claimed names such as Jack will instantly have the mafia night kill that player just because 'Jack' is a doctor in the show? Or are you insinuating that the mafia, regardless of anything discussed today at how stupid it would be to base a claim on alignment, would ignore all that and night kill someone based on a claimed name?

I think I found scum...

Unvote

Vote: Juls

[Santos]

So now it does? But before, you were unsure?

No, it was stated in the role pm towards the end. I just forgot about it during all this excitement

[Santos]

Dude, she just told us she will not claim a name because she is scared that our remaining power roles will be outed.

I am not asking for roles, just names. She thinks, apparently by name claiming, that the mafia team will now target players based on name claims irregardless of anything we've discussed today.

How does that not make sense?

[Santos]

She does not believe that name claims indicate alignment, however, she believes that name claims will out our remaining power roles.

Basically, she is insinuating that someone who claims Jack will now be a target for the mafia because he is a power role, or someone who claims Sayid will be a target for the mafia becaus he will most likely be a vigilante.

[Santos]

Oh, I think she is scum because she is contradicting in her argument.

[Santos]

In your big post that started this fast post craziness you said you wanted FULL claims

I will remove my vote if you can provide wehre I said full claim, as opposed to name claim.

[Santos]

still not seeing the scum slip.

First scummy slip was taking what I wanted and saying that name claims will out our remaining power roles. Claimed names

WILL NOT DO THIS

as its been argued vehemently that claimed names will not prodive innocence of alignment!
And, she just said another one by thinking I was asking for FULL claims as opposed to name claims.

[Santos]

especially after you "forgot" your role PM said that your role could change throughout the game.

Yes, I did forget because I seriously didn't think being iron would be taken away, just as RECKONER didn't think being a cop could be taken away.

[Santos]

i agree with her.

so i don't see a scum slip.

Christ, someone else reading has to see what I mean.

[Santos]

Are you putting words in my mouth? Where am i saying FULL claims?

[Santos]

You're just assuming, bud.

[Santos]

The BOLD is what made me think you wanted full claims. What's missing from that? YOUR NAME CLAIM! So that is what told me you wanted full claims.

LOL, you're still assuming I asked for them when I clearly did not.

I withheld my name because now I'm going to prove to you that claiming names is not going to help the scum:

Sun.

[Santos]

YOU SAID YOU'D GO FIRST AND PROCEEDED TO ROLE CLAIM!!!!!!!!! What else am I to take from "I'll go first" other than, you want other people to do the same???????

Dude, I never said I wanted full claims. I said name claims.

Santos...you are really being dense here. After saying I will go first, there were NO names there. That lead me to believe you wanted to full claim. I don't support either.

Again, I am not being dense. You

CLEARLY

misread everything in my post and made a terrible mistake that I caught you in.

Since ZONEACE is backing you up, I am seriously considering that its almost a chainsaw defense because now BOTH of you are saying that I wanted FULL claims.

[Santos]

Claim: Jin

hahahahahahahaha

[Santos]

She broke...

EASILY

, man. I like how I am persuasive by default as opposed to valid arguments lol

[Santos]

Well, fuck. If she is claiming Jin that puts me in a tougher spot as there is more stuff in my PM that will clearly make me have to take my vote off of her.

I thought I caught scum... *sob*

Unvote

But still, you have to admit that I did not ask for FULL claim. That is just a blatant lie.

[Santos]

now Juls name claim is interesting....wasnt Jin stuck on the island with Sawyer and Juliet?

And Sayid, and just about everyone else in the show. What is your point? Are you trying to get us using the flavor bit right now?

Even though I had a quick tirade over calling Juls scummy, I rescind all that and now would be comfortable with a curious lynch or canadianbovine lynch...

NOT BASED ON CLAIMS, BUT BY OVERALL PERFORMANCE

.

[Santos]

Oh, but of course, MOAR NAME CLAIMS PL0X.

[Santos]

I have had my suspicions about it but I thought he might be Sun. When he claimed Juliet it baffled me. Part of why I am voting him but I didn't want to out myself so I have not mentioned it.

Wow, now I am more inclined to vote Canadian...but I want more names.

[Santos]

curious, I just want a name. Voting can happen later.

[Santos]

...says its a plausible thing to conclude about particular players. Which means the mafia might have more of a reason to night kill RECKONER for us

[Santos]

ZONEACE, will you please provide your name?

[Santos]

But why?

[Santos]

Wit holding information is anti-town. Agree or disagree?

[Santos]

Straw man, ftw? Did I finally get one?

'Full'? Provide where please?

[Santos]

Can you provide your case, post by post? It will help me understand.

[Santos]

Also, name claims are not indicative of alignment, so what is it going to hurt?

[Santos]

But i have agreed with you about part of your case against me. The only thing you seem to not get over is how that got away from you because Reck is still alive lol

[Santos]

Juls is the one who actually got the better part of me with that claim. You however, not so much, especially when i start agreeing with you in some cases. You're very anti-Santos for nothing indicatively scummy. Or do you have something?

[Santos]

As much as i want to vote ZONE because we have a pissing match going on, at least we both agree that CB should die today. Thoughts?

[Santos]

Then there is no pleasing you...how r u with sexual advances?

[Santos]

natural? or does that matter?

[Santos]

I might know who you are...if we're keeping it all in game

[Santos]

I'm going to go out on a limb and ask what do you all think about lynching a claimed miller who hasnt provided a name? I mean, if we're not going to lynch someone based on flavor, play style, then why not on an actual claim, for validity purposes?

[Santos]

Or anyone who has claimed?

[Santos]

Do i need to ask what i want from you, Mr. Emp?

[Santos]

I know I have questions out to me, but ChannelDelibird has stuck out immensely in the last few pages. Suddenly, I am thinking either a VP Baltar/ChannelDelibird or ChannelDelibird/CanadianBovine or VP Baltar/CanadianBovine.

ChannelDelibird, would you provide a name claim?

[Santos]

I see ChannelDelibird is using this forum right now

[Santos]

And now he's gone...

[Santos]

Post 1, rule 3.1 the link is not working. Can it be fixed?

[Santos]

You're right Santos, I must be partners with two of the people who I said I would like to see lynched today.

Its you, or one of them, then, right?

[Santos]

VP Baltar, I dunno Curious' tirade against you looks like one of mine towards SensFan in which we see exibit A) curiouskarmadog confirmation bias town, and you exibit B) calm, cool scum

Its just a thought, nothing I would rant over the next few pages like he did, but its a strong observation I've made that makes me look at you, Sawyer, as a mafia leader. I've played several Lost mafias and Sawyer was the baddie in 1 of them, but this was offsite so its nothing I'd take to the grave. I could just see Sawyer as being bad...call it a gut feeling

@Z, got the swiff file. I thought it was going to pertain to Lost roles for some reason. I've seen multiple variations of that .swf file before. thx

[Santos]

*facepalm*

I need to cut down on how many games I play at once.

[Santos]

Sawyer was a leader...and he had baddies on his team. Claiming Sawyer would be an awfully good safeclaim for scum, imo. But lynching Sawyer would answer a lot of questions I have about what kind of names scum can safe claim in a mafia where a mass claim could break the game.

[Santos]

Curious, you've kind of been blind sided all game with talking to VP Baltar...what are your last thoughts on CanadianBovine and him claiming to be Juliette while breadcrumbing random shit that wasn't necessary? (He was the one who breadcrumbed Korean, right?)

[Santos]

Santos: “if reckoner is scum, im pushing your lynch” to CB. OTOH, tried very hard to distract from CB’s lynch.

Where did I say that?

[Santos]

Expect sporadic play over the next few days. I am changing residence. Sorry for any game inconvenience.

[Santos]

Finally day! Okay. I have the best explanation for why I was defending RECKONER yesterday:

- reckoner claims cop, loses ability.
- i gained night investigations the same day reckoner revealed he lost his ability...that is why i was doing my best to defend lynching reckoner.
- i didnt want to reveal my new ability for fear of losing my ability because our only know doctor was dead, hence why I claimed to be iron townie and lost my ability.
- since I am alive today it seems my plan to defend reckoner on false information kept me alive during the night.

Now, I know I didnt tell you guys the whole truth, but hopefully you'll understand why I did what I did yesterday, especially considering that a doctor wouldnt have been able to protect me if I had come forward with the truth that I apparently inhereted Reck's ability by coming to the island.

So...yes I investigated someone. Yes, I truly didnt want to believe canadianbovine was guilty because I had much more skeptical reads on other players and thats why I didnt fully advocate his lynch. So, I chose one of those people who I couldnt put a definitive finger on if they were town or scum. I am really satisfied with my result too, btw, because it gives me all the more reason to go after two people today, who I didnt trust yesterday, and have more faith in people today that I had trouble convincing yesterday.

I know what you guys want from me:

EmpTyger - Innocent

VP Baltar
Channeldelibird - these two are my choices for a safe, scum lynch today.

I'll be here all day...

[Santos]

EmpTyeger, let me respond appropriately on my computer and not my blackberry because i think you r misunderstanding what I've done with my delicate situation of yesterday.

[Santos]

emp, I thought he was scum....that is why. I also did it because I knew there was no way his scummy ass would not take my wager...I still think he is scummy.

Curious, EmpTyger was a part of my list of 'skeptical' people I couldn't get a read on yesterday, hence, why I investigated him.

Of the other two people I could have investigated, ChannelDelibird/VP Baltar, I had two problems:

VP Baltar - for the obvious WIFOM miller claim. Also, with VP claiming miller in this game it completely negates any type of game style play he has to offer aka how we try to judge him as pro town or scum. In my opinion, we lynch VP and see what comes up, otherwise its FUBAR: because if I had investigated him, received 'guilty' and lynched him today and he turns up 'townie' then i will have wasted an investigation

and

lynched a townie which would put us two steps backward. So collectively, we need to decide what to do together with VP Balter.

ChannelDeliBird - lurked. actively lurked. and lurked. I don't need to investigate a lurker because if it comes down to it we can lynched this lurker because he is not scum hunting, providing any type of feedback, and is not participating. This is ANTI TOWN, through and through.

So I chose EmpTyger.

[Santos]

Now I separated the above post from the one I am posting now because I can honestly say ZazieR has it right in making multiple posts for everything to make sense to herself. It will help me separate my decisions from how you guys want me to answer your questions.

So...

CDB needs to open his damn mouth and stop lurking.

This is, for lack of a better word, 'curious' to me. I seriously feel its a poke to ChannelBird to 'speak the hell up or forever hold your peace.' What do you all see if for?

That's reread-worthy. For starters, why does my being innocent make VP and CDB guilty?

I'm confused with why you are bothering to ask me this, but hopefully the post before this one from me will paint it clearer for you.

1) Why did you think Kate was super-pro-town D1, way before you allegedly used your ability N1?

There is a problem with this question: Kate. You're saying 'Kate' instead of RECKONER which seems to be implying that my entire play yesterday was based on the show as opposed to what this game could really have to offer (Kate could be anti-town and flavor is useless). The moment I found out RECKONER lost his investigation ability I knew I had to find some way to prevent him from being lynched
1) For one, because I may lose my investigative ability tonight and it could go back to him
2) For another, because I could lose my investigative ability and it could go to someone else in the game
3) I may retain the ability the rest of the game, but that would still be reason enough to vindicate RECKONER from a mis-lynch, albeit is all hearsay, of course. But in my position, I have to believe him.

2) Do you have any justification for Sun having the ability you're claiming?

Other than from what the mod tells me that I must find Jin, no. Juls 'helped' with that.

3) Why did you vote me D2? Specifically, one of the reasons you gave was because I "completely ignored the fact that some people are now 'back on the island' which tells me he is scum and doesn't know that townies are back on the island." But know you're saying that you were responsible for Reckoner returning to the island, so... how would I have known that?

Despite any reasons I gave you, you were the hardest read. So I investigated you. According to standard cop play a mafiawiki and advice given by other players in the discussion forum, I chose you because I couldn't read you.

4) Why did you use your ability on Reckoner in the first place?

I think you're confused with who has an ability, who doesn't and who used an ability on who, etc. What are you trying to ask me?

5) After that elaborate lie, why did you come forward now?

I came forward now so we don't mislynch you (EmpTyger). Now I can move on and advocate lynching the miller or the lurker today.

-----------------------
Hopefully I have answered everything, but correct me if I'm wrong.

For now, I need a reason not to vote a lurker...

Vote: ChannelDeliBird

[Santos]

Porochaz, the OP needs updating, por favor.

[Santos]

Why has the talking stopped?

[Santos]

That's reread-worthy. For starters, why does my being innocent make VP and CDB guilty?

Uh, because you three were my choices for the night to investigate, and I chose you expecting a guilty result. But as that wasn't what I got it only made more sense to go for Channel and VP today for the reasons I've already advocated and strongly stand behind.

As for the rest: 0/5. You are a really bad liar. At least we know the fakeclaim composition talents of the rest of the mafia. Someone wrote you a beauty.

I am reading this as two ways:

1) I am a hell of a bluffer but you don't give me any credit because it is scum partners that are obviously helping me and you wouldn't see it any other way

or

2) I was just given the largest amount of mafia-kudos I have ever been given.

I'll opt for the latter seeing as I am not going to lynch you today.

And if there is room for a 3rd option because my pride is hurt:
3) **** you for discrediting my play ability

[Santos]

curious, while he is hopefully trying to answer you, can you spread your thoughts on the many other players (other than the two you've been tunneling the past two days)?

[Santos]

Your breadcrumb essentially shifted my focus off of you, elsewhere.

[Santos]

Wait, you want to lynch me too?

RECKONER, we're awesome cops. This town loves us.

off-island to on-island

This.

[Santos]

This is getting annoying, but okay, I'll tell you in a more simple context to your question:

Now, unless you'd like to provide reasons why I should lynch you, could you answer why you didn’t think {CKD, Juls, Zoneace} were mafia?

I had 3 top suspects. Those consisted of the people I've already named. As for CKD he actually claimed, Juls claimed Jin (who I happen to be looking for), and ZONEACE is most likely the person in charge of something much more powerful than we realize - hence, why he got so upset earlier in the game because pepole were going to lynch him for his erratic behavior as opposed to the point he was trying to make.

Also, I don't understand it when people say: 'I don't like the way Santos did this' If you could oblige a more appropriate way to have taken care of things, then I am all ears. Please, enlighten me as opposed to being disatisfied with the way I took my approach to the information I knew about RECKONER yesterday and how I decided to 'spill the beans' today.

[Santos]

EmpTyger, basically, I chose 3 top suspects based on yesterdays discussion and made them my priorities. It seems like you're trying to say that I've completely ignored the other 3 people for some reason, but that is not my intention at all. If I was an ace at multi-tasking in a forum, in one quick reply box, and had more available time to dedicate to this game, then I probably would have plenty more thoughts on those other 3 you seem to believe I'm ignoring. But I'm not. They're just not as high a priority of suspects AT THIS TIME.

Now with that answered, what is your beef with how I've played so far? I'm now the cop and investigated you for your suspicious play style the day before. My result came back 'innocent'. So what's the problem?

[Santos]

Also, I'm still advocating a ChannelDeliBird lynch. He needs more votes. All he was able to come in with was 'I don't like how so and so did this'

Come on.

[Santos]

RECKONER, why are you all of sudden so timid today?

VP Baltar, what do you think of my final analysis of you?

Curiouskarmadog, we need more input from you - instead of tunneling on VP and Emp, please tells us what your thoughts are now that my result produced 'innocent.'

MOD, WHO IS REPLACING JULS AND CAN YOU PLEASE UPDATE THE OP? OR CAN THE BACKUP MOD DO US THE FAVOR?

[Santos]

That's my assumption on you and why I'm not so suspicious of you anymore + your breadcrumbs.

[Santos]

and your point being we were being a group of stupid townies almost going to lynch someone who is important.

[Santos]

If we're not going to go after the miller, then I would support a lynch on ChannelDeliBird or Curiouskarmadog. Also, out of the people who voted CanadianBovine to a lynch, which appears the most scummy of a reason to place a vote on him?

[Santos]

Miller claim. I've already explained why.

[Santos]

THank you, Porochaz.

Vote count?

[Santos]

It is the weekend... parrrtaaay!

Oh, by the way, I will be going to Las Vegas/Vacation for a week, next week. I can still visit via my BlackBerry, of course, but don't expect wall of texts from the tiny device, haha.

[Santos]

We should just get Channel at L-1 and see what he does. He's of no help, folks.

[Santos]

Enlighten us with a more sound lynch, over.

[Santos]

I just really don't think Curious is guilty enough as far as scummy play goes. Channel's blatant disregard to help us at all is whats bothering me, especially when we know a mass claim is a decent idea before proceeding with a lynch.

CanadianBovine's lynch was harsh, which I am increasingly blaming his actual claim is why people lynched him as opposed to anything else.

And seriously, I gotta get this WIFOM taste out of my mouth.

Unvote

,

mod, please replace or prod Channel to get him participating;

Vote: VP Baltar

, because I am just going to go with plain jane mafia rules and assume a miller will not be told he is a miller. So claiming one is just scummy.

[Santos]

Somebody mentioned EmpTyger may be Godfather. In my opinion, if this were true, this would make me want to lynch VP Baltar even more.

Also, Christian Shepherd, if you're in this game, I chose 'yes' to speak with you. I'm not sure what will happen, but if I die for some reason doing this, I at least want it to be known I was questioned today.

[Santos]

*agrees with Zone*
Yes, it would be incredibly lucky. I serious think channel is scum and is trying to lurk to victory. If he was town he should have just turned the role over to someone who could replace in and helped the town move further along with this day.

[Santos]

I am heading back from Las Vegas. Will catch up soon. I see there were a lot of questions posed to me while I skimmed the last few pages, but answering them on a BlackBerry would be tedious. Thank you for being patient.

[Santos]

Hi, I am back from Las Vegas I have skimmed/caught up, but nothing in depth.

I still believe we should lynch VP Baltar for the miller claim and ChannelDeliBird for LURKING and not contributing to scum hunting.

[Santos]

Vote: ChannelDeliBird

[Santos]

I want him to play or be replaced. This is crap that he hasn't said a damn thing.

[Santos]

The mod has confirmed this lylo?

[Santos]

Reck, you're just going to assume this lynch is the end?

VP, I will have to reread your questions.

Also, this far into the game I feel we're detracting from simple basics: participation, focus, and scum hunting.

I feel we need to take a step back and make sure things like 'OMG we're lynch or lose' qwont concern us the rest of the game: ex. Participation. This is imperative for us to win. Town or not, a player must do his part for the game or be replaced. Let's start simply with that instead of letting ppl lurk.

[Santos]

Wow, I need to catch up or I am am going to be the hypocrite. Its nice to have Channel replaced now.

When I get home I will respond to updated questions.

[Santos]

I decided to pull a double shift at work and will be able to post in substantial length later today (Thursday).

[Santos]

Emp, post 1449, I am not sure why you would say 'everyone except Santos' but I read this same game as everyone else, so how can I not answer anything that concerns me?

Except no one died last night! How could Santos think that his being alive had anything to do with his claim? Unless he didn’t write that after dawn. He wrote it before dawn- expecting someone to be dead.

I went with the fake claim of 'iron townie' to deter people from taking a shot at me at night. Thus, I would be able to make an investigation and then come clean the next day as to why I defended RECKONER.

2) In order to clear Reckoner D2, Santos jumped through a flaming hoop of doom involving complex flavor speculation, drawn out polling, and a 100% made up claim- all just so that he wouldn’t have to reveal his cop ability.
But in order to clear me D3, Santos blurts out his ability as soon as he can at the start of the day.

You make it sound so dramatic lol. But yes, that was my intention to make sure you were on the town side or not.

3) D2 Santos claims that he must find for Jin. Then Juls claims Jin.
And now that Santos, having found Jin, despite having turned into a complete blabbermouth regarding himself and me- has absolutely nothing further to say on the subject of Juls/Jin.

Nice ad hom. Obviously, if Juls had no problem refuting my attack on her with claiming Jin right away, then obviously I am going to back off of her and avoid a mislynch. However, now I am wondering if Jin is a safe claim...its entirely possible.

4) Santos claims he allegedly learned Reckoner was innocent based on something that happened either N1 or D2.
But Santos was already stating on D1 that Reckoner’s claim of Kate makes him definitely innocent- before this alleged event occurred..

Nice misrep. Didn't I elaborate how flavor was nonsensical when I was talking to Zoneace?

Santos is claiming that he has received a one shot ability (which was part of your point 5)....if no one else have received one..then, his claim looks worse...I am not asking what they were...I am asking if anyone has had one.

Where, please?

As far I as I know, Juls/BM was the only other person who claimed a one-shot ability...though she never clarified what that was.

Did you address this mention?

Please explain what this is now. How can your PM dictate who you vote for?

You're misunderstanding me, but that is fine because I should have explained more clearly. When I received the cop ability the flavor told me I am searching for Jin. So when Juls claimed during my tirade to lynch her, it threw me off and I was taken aback. Her claiming Jin completely derailed my attempt of finding her to be scum. But maybe that could be her/his (BM's) safe claim? I don't know. That would certainly now obligate me to investigate her/him to find out if they're telling the truth.

Santos what connection to Juls (Jin) are you proposing with your statement? Have you communicated with her in this game?

No. No communication. The only connection is flavor so far.

Also, what happens when you "find" Jin?

I don't know. I have not been able to ask a question. I've only been sent a message from the mod asking if I want to talk to Christian Shepherd or not. I said yes, but then have received nothing since then.

If that's the real reason, then why the defense based on flavor D1? As far as I can recall, you've had nothing negative to say about Reckoner all game despite his many errors and horribad logic. Even if you think someone is town, I would think that occasionally they are going to say something that would ping your scumdar. Why the free ride for Reckoner all game?

I guess it wasn't clear that I am not playing this game on flavor. I thought I vehemently went over that when talking to Zoneace.

Why do you word this like this? I'd think your main concern would be dying. Do you think the scum have the ability to make town members lose their abilities? Do you think that is what happened to Reckoner?

Good job. Yes. This is exactly what I thought so I didn't want to lose the ability by claiming I was the cop since RECKONER was no longer the claimed cop.

Explain this to me better. How does you getting an innocent result on Emp give you "all the more reason" to go after myself or CDB today?

Channeldelibird because he lurked. You because you claimed miller.

Ah, here is Juls' one shot ability.

BattleMage

, can you enlighten us, please?

Santos has been ambiguous about whether he gained the ability N1 or D2, but it doesn’t matter. The point is, Reckoner says he still had the ability N1.

Now I'm thoroughly confused. So hopefully this: when RECKONER came in to the new day saying he lost his ability, I knew there had to be a reason I received the cop ability. I also figured to avoid a mislynch, that I should find a way to defend RECKONER by saying I lost my 'ability' too even though I originally didn't have an ability whatsoever.

Turns out: it worked, IMO.

Why did you say that?

Why did I say I really wanted CanadianBovine to not be guilty? Because toward the end of that day I REALLY didn't believe he was scum and the lynch was being fueled by the scum. So, I took a look back to see who ended up lynching him:

I caught this on a reread. BattleMage, what do you think of this information?

The entire part where he was defending you because you claimed Kate.

Hopefully this idea/argument is squashed now? I've refuted that.

I'm not asking for names, what kind of a result did it say you would receive. Mafia/Not Mafia, Guilty/Innocent, Third Party, etc.

I just checked my role email 'change' and I would like to answer this, but I will wait for RECKONER.

I'm anxious to hear Emp's revelation, and I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense. I've just polished off a case of Coors.

Oh, yeah, EmpTyger said he needed to rethink this whole game...

Hey, Reckoner, let's try this for the third time. What did the flavor in your PM say you would receive as a result when you investigated someone. Mafia, Not-Mafia, Guilty, Innocent, Not Innocent, Third Party, etc. This is an important question and the way you keep stalling on it doesn't set my mind at ease one bit.

Interesting, RECKONER has avoided this...While I complete missed it. I can answer this, would you like me to or RECKONER first? This is actually something that could deal us more or less corroboration on who might be telling the truth or not.

I never said VP/Juls were cleared.

@VPB: Innocent or Guilty.

Interesting. Before I answer what I know,
1) RECKONER was that what was contained in your role email from the mod originally?
2) Did that ever change?

^^^^^ THIS NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED ASAP.

--------------------------------------------------------
Now people want to vote me:

First EmpTyger just votes me without explanation as well as contradicting his reason to see me as guilty when he gave his own opinion.

I agree, Vote: Santos

Also, Mod, feel free to prod CDB again.

And having done that, CDB, what are your feelings on a Santos lynch today?

So you would ask Channel this, but not Battle Mage? Why?

If you have a preference for a CKD lynch, I'll hear you out. Actually, Unvote: Santos- I've already gotten the reactions I wanted, and I owe you the courtesy of checking with you before proceeding.

Oh, okay. Thanks. :p

I've been suspicious of Reck this ENTIRE GAME, as you know, and that hasn't changed. But CKD's play the last few (game) days has been just, so inexplicable. There seems to be no pro-town piece of it. I can't say its blatantly anti-town, but it just seems so far from being in the town's best interest.

I am really rethinking this now. It will depend out RECKONER answers my questions...

My gut says lynch Reckoner, my head says not. I'm looking at alternatives.

Back on page 36 its becoming all the more cryptic how I am the only one defending RECKONER...I am seriously losing my stance on protecting RECKONER about his loss of cop ability now. Due to all the hubub that has been going on with mod asking questions, roles changing, people becoming millers I am seriously troubled with what to believe.

I am going to make a two parter post, finishing this one now with:

----------------------------------------------------------
Updated claim list? (I may need help)

EmpTyger (psychiatrist)
ZONEACE (SK 'now healed')
VP Baltar (miller, has not given a name)
CanadianBovine (juliette, VT)

Juls

Battle Mage (Jin, oneshot ability?)

ChannelDeliBird

Amished (no claim or anything)

and I can't for the life of me remember who voted CanadianBovine besides:
ZONEACE with a drunk vote
Juls


Who else did?

[Santos]

Thoughts on who is scum and not:

Juls

Battle Mage - town-ish. The Jin claim is bias towards flavor obviously, but I won't argue that to the grave of course. She was part of the CanadianBovine lynch, but nothing short of a townie wanting to lynch CanadianBovine for an awful rep at being a VT. BM's play recently puts doubts in my mind in how he can help the town at all.

VP Baltar - town. Confused now? Sure you are. But recently with all the RECKONER stuff in the post before this one I have now been swayed a little more into believing VP becoming a miller. It wouldn't be a stretch in this game, that is for sure.

ZONEACE - neither. I thought town earlier in this game, but since EmpTyger proclaims that we should ignore both of them just pisses me the hell off. We're not going to ignore you, EmpTyger.

EmpTyger - neither; and I'm the fucking cop getting the result on him. This fucking sucks. Emp's recent post about telling us to not go after them is just complete crap. If I had said the same thing when RECKONER lost his ability I would have been lambasted, ridiculed and probably lynched for saying that. However, since I am the cop right now, the only way I see EmpTyger being scum is he is Godfather and pulled the biggest scum team gambit with ZONEACE.

ChannelDeliBird

Amished - town-ish, except for his predecessor's ability to lurk and not participate fully.

RECKONER - initially town, but now I am looking at other information for him to answer first before submitting my final bid...

Curiouskarmadog - gut is telling me town, just the same as CanadianBovine. Mostly because he was so die hard about calling out VP Baltar in a lynch me if you're not scum. He seeks vindication like a hard core townie...I really believe it.

I think that is everyone?

Also, I need to formulate a better claims list...working on it.

[Santos]

After that enormous reread/skim of the game I noticed taht only two people hardly ever addressed each other:

RECKONER/

ChannelDeliBird

Amished. It could be nothing, but its certainly the most interesting one considering the board has been piss contest between everyone but them.

But then someone could say the same about me between me and curiouskarmadog, but that is just because I think curious (claimed Sawyer) is more town than anyone...more so than EmpTyger, lol.

[Santos]

Everyone,

RECKONER claims his role email states taht he will receive 'innocent or guilty'.

My role email says 'Mafia or Not Mafia'.

The mod pmed me my result of EmpTyger 'innocent'.

I am troubled.

[Santos]

Is it just me or has no one else claimed a Lost character name that is larger than the ones claimed? Because it just seems to be RECKONER...

I would seriously advocate a mass claim, but the resounding criticism of that in the past has me in doubt.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Unofficial Claims List:

Updated claim list + any additional info.?

RECKONER (Kate, ex-cop)
EmpTyger (psychiatrist)
ZONEACE (SK 'now healed')
VP Baltar (miller: after a question)
CanadianBovine (Juliette, VT)

Juls

Battle Mage (Jin, one shot ability?)
ChannelDeliBird Amished (no claim or anything)
curiouskarmadog (Sawyer, VT)

ChannelDeliBird

Amished (nothing)
Santos (Sun, originially VT, starting Night 2 a cop. Received innocent on EmpTyger)[/c]

-----------------------------------------------------

Looking at that list, I guess two people have claimed big Lost character names while the others... not so much.

[Santos]

VP Baltar

, are you Christian Shepherd?

[Santos]

Unvote

.

Can we get a vote count, a mod and some ice cream?

[Santos]

I knew it Lover of redheads

[Santos]

So my opinion of you makes me more scum now that I think you're town? That sounds like your opinion of me this entire game, but opposite. Why is that?

[Santos]

And it seems no one cares that RECKONER's and my role emails are drastically different in results.

[Santos]

I forget who RECKONER initially investigated...

[Santos]

I'm thinking this might corroborate or disprove Santos's claim.

This is quite ridiculous. You're going to use someone else's PM to disprove mine when we have completely different PMs. What the hell?

One more thing still doesn't make sense WRT your claim of "iron townie". You said that you were an iron townie *after* N1 (on D2) and on the same day, you said you had lost all your powers (including being BP) since you were "vanilla" claiming bullet proof *DOESN'T DO ANYTHING FOR YOU* other than making you look more important than you were. This point above all makes me suspicious of the whole situation around your claim. I think you knew you had a power N1 and wanted to claim something instead of saying you were just vanilla and randomly got the cop power.

No. You're wrong.
I claimed something of a power role on the day RECKONER claimed to lose his ability so I could keep RECKONER from dying. People wanted to lynch RECKONER on the basis that he was lying about being a cop and lost his ability. I had to come up with a reason to corroborate his story without alluding that I was the COP. Had I mentioned I was the cop the same day I figured I would be NIGHT KILLED. DO YOU GET MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT?[/zoneacecruisecontrol] :p

I was initially VT OFF THE ISLAND. ON THE ISLAND I became a cop looking for Jin.

Re: Flavor - if flavor has done anything for me in this game so far its told me quite the opposite of what is true in the show...which helps me detract from using any flavor except whatever flavor is in my role pm or message privately with the mod.

[Santos]

As well as the fact that you were "told" to find Jin, but when Jin came out and nameclaimed, you didn't use what you had claimed to get *on* Jin. That part of your story makes absolutely no sense at all and is the other half to my overall suspicions on you; regardless of your scummy actions that I've seen.

If I technically found Jin with Juls claiming Jin, then why would I use an investigation on her? That would be the same stupid reason to investigate VP Baltar's WIFOM-miller claim. What else you got?

Traitor or some sort of Mafia role thief makes the most sense to me; neither of which are pro-town. Pending votecount/questions (if they haven't been asked yet) I'm willing to vote for Santos.

How am I scum if you're assuming so much that isn't right? Your thought process and what I've explained this entire game does not make me scum.

[Santos]

There is no explanation for why. There is just: 'Here Santos, here you go! Find your husband!'

Also, I'm still waiting for a reason why the hell nothing happened after I requested 'yes' to speak to Christian Shepherd...

MOD

. Check your inbox please.

[Santos]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... astard_Mod

There is a lot of this in the game. Its getting fucking difficult to play any further. I feel like I'm running fucking circles and its pissing me the hell off.

[Santos]

I've been waiting since September 30th.

[Santos]

VP Baltar

, can you elaborate as much as possible how your conversation with the mod went?

[Santos]

oh, sorry, regarding when you became miller.

[Santos]

Santos:
You received an ability that lets you find mafia.
You were told that to find Jin.
Therefore… you concluded that Jin *isn’t* mafia?

I realized I didn't want to use the investigation on Juls/Battle Mage, but instead on you because you were the most unreadable player in the game.

Yeah, we need Santos to clear up *all* questions before we can really move forward in a ... "shadowy".. manner. (By that I mean then we can discuss more possibilities than we can now and keeping our own opinions to ourselves in the shadows, so to speak.)

Here is what I think is funny: Before EmpTyger came out to say that he saved ZONEACE, I came out with my cop claim and verified EmpTyger was 'innocent' (recently the mod pmed me saying he made a mistake and said 'not mafia'), but NOT ONE PERSON has taken that to heart in this game. Now is this complete ignorance or do you believe me? I think its funny that everyone is questioning me, but not ZONEACE or EmpTyger. Its...astonishing that they're so trusted.

What he would get is being semi-confirmed as clear without having much suspicion thrown his way. Letting the townie cop be lynched without protest is traditional scum play... but his role allowed him to steal my ability and get himself semi-confirmed via game flavor without much debate.

Hypothetically, of course.

I think I still support a CKD lynch over a Santos lynch, but both are coming off scummy as hell right now.

I did not steal the ability.

See the problem isn't that. Look at your scum list. You call everyone townish except for the the two confirmed town, ONE OF WHOM YOU CLAIM TO HAVE INVESTIGATED AS INNOCENT.

How freaking ridiculous do you think you can be and get away with it?

Well, I've never claimed a cop before and had this much trouble with people believing me. And you trust that my result is confirmed innocent and not Godfather?

Also, your statement that the mod messed up your result irritates me. While I don't think our mod has been doing the best job ever, he was certainly keeping up much better at the time when you sent your investigation.

Well, you got me there because the mod is not going to admit a mistake in this game, duh.

[Santos]

Unvote, Vote: Santos

I would like a reason. This is a slap in the face after what I did for you the day before.

[Santos]

So we're for lynching cops now, huh? Deja Vu?

[Santos]

You know what is going to be awful to read is how 'crappy' I've played after I've been lynched and then everyone can talk shit on me when they realized they've lynched a cop.

^This. Happens. So. Damn. Much.

Its nothing I've been able to change, but to constantly and try and improve. My play is crappy, and by telling me that I play crappy after my lynch isn't really helping me to improve my play. It just degrades it.

What I did for RECKONER the day before was my feeble attempt to stop a lynch on someone who 99.9% for sure HAD to be the cop. Why? Because he lost his ability and I gained an ability. What makes me even more sure? I became a cop and he is no longer a cop.

How does any person deal with this without painting a fat target on them that says LYNCH ME THE NEXT DAY?

This, by far, has been the hardest game I've played, and I'm still alive.

fucking ridiculous. i need a break. you might as well tie the noose and go into the night blinded.

However, if I may offer an alternative: keep me alive and let the scum choose what to do with me. More than likely I'm going to be the high priority casualty this game as opposed to anyone else. Except this leaves the scum a difficult choice to make: do they kill me tonight so i don't have another chance to investigate? or do they keep me alive and hope that I get lynched the next day?

That would be a difficult choice to make.

I'm all ears, folks. I'm not sure why...wait

I know why

I'm going to the noose this day and its because I'm crappy at playing power roles. End story.

[Santos]

2)Here is what I think is funny: you never explained why you cleared Reckoner on Day 2 when your PM said Mafia, Not Mafia and his said Guilty, Innocent. Do explain!

Only the mod can vindicate me on that, but I assume he will do this after the game because RECK's and my role PMs are different on investigation results according to RECKONER. And I thought I explained that earlier.

He's confirmed because he's the psychiatrist and zone was an SK. Do you not believe that? What evidence is there to the contrary, because there is plenty for it.

So I should trust them, you all, and my sanity? Malarkey.

1) Nice AtE. Well put together, actually; one of the better ones I've read.

It is if you don't believe I am the cop.

Amished, why would it be in my best interest to let RECKONER die just so I can hoard an ability? I'm not like that.

[Santos]

lol

there is no place to store it on a tropical island

So we're not on the island with Dharma? That helps us figure out this game more by you answering that. I think we just got mod confirmation [/jokes]

[Santos]

Because I missed it when you asked RECKONER that question earlier in the game. When the mod says 'innocent' after I submit an investigation you kind of take it for granted and forget about the role PM. But after rereading teh game thread it stuck out like a sore thumb when I asked RECKONER what his role PM said and what mine says. The sugar on top was that the mod pmed me saying he made a mistake and that EmpTyger was 'not mafia'.

However, a case like this will not hold up in a game of mafia because that would be me trying to use my PM to confirm/not confirm a player which the entirety of MafiaScum is against (as I've found out).

So the only way I know I can prove to you guys that I'm innocent was by defending RECKONER, lying to you so I wouldn't paint a target on myself the next day but hopefully vindicate RECKONER and myself and find scum.

So, if we

actually believe Santos

:

Santos
RECKONER
EmpTyger
and
ZONEACE are confirmed town[/stretch]

So who does that leave?

It leaves:

The miller (VP)

The death dealer (CKD)

The Lurker (CDB)

The ability withholder (BM)

1 if not 2 of those people are 100% scum. I guarantee my death on it. The bolded are who I would like to see lynched today.

Vp, there was also a time earlier in the game where you posted on CDB and his lack of play. I thought it would be stupid to mention it before that I suspected that as a deep cry for a mafia partner to start posting, but pushed that idea out as a stretch of anything sane to think...but its still nagging the hell out of me to this day.

[Santos]

If anything, guys, I will self vote, but in return I would recommend a mass claim before doing so. If you go into the night realizing you lynched a cop without getting information from the rest of the people in the thread who have not participated fully, you'll go 'oh shit, we're fucked' and as a result I will see an exorbanent amount of posts from everyone left alive saying I was a crappy player this game and deserved the lynch; also Santos probably lost the game for us.

You can 'OMG HE AtE, ZOMG, LYNCH DA SCUM' or you can take my word, as well as Emp's, and lynch the REAL scum.

[Santos]

As soon as you try to win for yourself, you screw it up for your side. As town, I expect you to look at the big picture (which is why as vanilla I play more aggressively so that I can draw a NK and protect any PRs; while I play more passively as a PR so that I can keep myself alive.)

Well, then my view of the town is skewed because I thought saving RECKONER would help the town by not lynching a town. I know RECKONER is not 100% confirmed, but with the information I know and have now dealt to you, it just makes sense to me to not go after RECKONER and myself, but that turns out to be the opposite.

[Santos]

*exorbitant

[Santos]

Oh, and the main reason I am not leaving VP Baltar alone is because

1) His experience
2) His ability to play well
3) The miller WIFOM

Its too simple to just believe he is not scum when I know what I know this far into the game.

[Santos]

Why do you keep calling me scum? You certainly believed myself and RECKONER much earlier in the thread. What makes that different now?

[Santos]

VP, no thoughts on my weird feeling about your comment on CDB's play, earlier? Should I trust it?

[Santos]

lol

1700: You wanna actually call me by me (not CDB) and not call me a lurker?

]
My, you're touchy. I'm calling CDB the lurker from earlier in this game and it pertains to VP about what I'm talking about. If you're going to say 'call me by me' then own up to the lurker comments because

YOUR PREDECESSOR LURKEDDDDDD

. OWN IT. Also, have I said you've lurked since you replaced? if I did I will eat my computer.

1705: Too townie?

yes. That is what has been nagging. And he's been sliding with that miller claim the whole game without providing any more detail. If anyone is HIDING something, its HIM.

[Santos]

Unvote?

Vote: VP Baltar

You know what I want and there is nothing to hide, 'scum'.

[Santos]

Oh, by the way, we seriously need Battle Mage to

play

the game with us. Please. Some hospitality, please.

[Santos]

Am I talking with the two scum of the game?

Here is what tickles my funny bone:

Neither of you would like to see anyone else lynched today but me.

[Santos]

I never concluded that Jin was mafia or wasn't mafia.

Why was that the right play D2 for clearing Reckoner, but not D3 for clearing me?

What?

[Santos]

Yeah, I didn't believe she was scum claiming Jin.

You said that D2 you lied because you needed to clear Reckoner and if you claimed cop you would be immediately killed.
But D3 to clear me you just claimed cop.
Why the difference?

...why does everyone but him get what I did?

[Santos]

EmpTyger, are you saying that I am not defending you today?

1) I replaced Drench as Sun, a vanilla townie, off the island.
2) CanadianBovine was lynched.
3) Night: I received a message saying my role changed. It basically says my mission is to find my husband (Jin) and now I am a cop. Results are Mafia or Not Mafia.
4) RECKONER comes into the new day saying he lost his ability.
5) I defend RECKONER with a faked PR claim letting everyone know I moved to the island like RECKONER did and lost my ability. (I didn't lose an ability, I believe I gained RECKONER's)

How much more defined can I make it?

[Santos]

I took a closer look on who CanadianBovine thought was scummy:

no it was because i write things as i read through, since i always come home to 1-3 pages to read. i voted you because i dont like the fact that you still pushed a reckoners lynch. maybe i dont think he's had protown behaivour, maybe i've felt that he's been very unlucky. maybe he is a cop and maybe he did lose his power. Then what? then its day 3, we've lost cop and doc, we've lost an additional 4 more town players. I say 4 because i think we've assumed that there is a serial killer, unless this game has weird post day 1 flavor kills? didnt think so. Anyways, 6 town players gone, it'll be lylo tommorow. I'm not ready to take that risk by voting for the one person who is currently cop.

His top candidate was VP Baltar.

If Santos is scum trying to vouch for me, it's a smart move:

Vouch for me, I get lynched anyway due to idiotic town, then he looks like the good guy for believing me.

Still, he's pretty much the only one (except CB?) believing me, so his word is all I can go on right now.

HOLT FUCKING SHIT...this is an awesome find in the reread. Why? Amished enlightened us with what he would do if he were in my position regarding what RECKONER said just there, but what I have a problem with is what we actually have on this day:
EmpTyger - NOT MAFIA.
ZONEACE - NOT MAFIA.
RECKONER - lost ability corroborated by myself.
Santos - gained RECKONER's lost ability

So assuming if we obliged Amished with the 'if' and I had let RECKONER get lynched

I would have been the #1 target

the next day to be lynched because RECKONER very well could have been right about me making a clever scum move and look extremely town after seeing RECKONER hypothetically flip town. So, Amished, if that REALLY happened and I let RECKONER get lynched, you're saying you would believe I am definitely town and not ever consider I could have been scum playing a huge gambit on the basis of a town cop losing his ability?

Dude, that^ would be the biggest stretch I've ever seen in a mafia game.

So, I kept looking back at CanadianBovine's lynch party as well as all the flak RECKONER received on losing his ability. I couldn't ignore what was right in front of us: observe the voters on both wagons and tell me I'm wrong?

RECKONER's lynch was fueled heavily by scum along with that of CanadianBovine's.

You will also notice, at the time, that ZONEACE could be considered scum as well because he was the SK. With him now cleared by EmpTyger we have a few people left.

A point I still want to reiterate what happened earlier is this:

curiouskarmadog - laid out a deal with VP Baltar about if VP Baltar was not scum, he would lynch himself the next day.

curious, where is the fire you had the day before? Why are you not contributing anything on this day????

Again, I still don't trust VP Baltar. I know, redundant, right? But guys, if you start reading from ***here*** and take notice of VP's play he does not scum hunt, he constantly is asking for information from many of the players in the thread when he NEVER gives information in return and he was persistent in the lynches of CandianBovine and RECKONER.

So what are we left with today?

VP Baltar

- no claim, no name or anything flavorful whatsoever. Just a miller claim. this left him off the radar the entire game.

Amished

- no claim, no name or anything flavorful whatsoever. his predecessor lurked, he himself has only hounded myself TRYING to make me look scummier and scummier. If his predecessor had no problem with what I claimed and did for RECKONER, why is he so hard core on me instead of VP Baltar or Battle Mage?

He has not once commented on VP Baltar's play or scum hunting attempts!

Why? OH, because they don't exist!!!!!

Battle Mage

- half claim, a name (Jin), no flavor whatsoever. EmpTyger constantly hammered me about why I stopped pursuing Juls/Battle Mage. The flavor of my email gave me the impression that Jin was someone I needed to find, but not vindicate or confirm they were guilty. RECKONER might back me up with this in 'what if' he found the person who stole aaron in this game...does that mean he should advocate lynching that person based on flavor? Yes/no? Its hard to do anything based on the flavor of this game which is why it is constantly a problem, but could be equally helpful. We've already proved that John Locke was town in this game, Alpert was town in this game, and Juliette was town in this game.

How is this not confirmation enough to work at least the tiniest angle of flavor into trying to get scum lynched today?

Well, if you observed this post then you've noticed there are still 2 people with holding information that is imperative for the town to know.

Lastly, people seem pertinent on getting Battle Mage to talk. Granted, it is overdue, but check this out:

1) EmpTyger places a vote asking only for people to vote every 24 hours. This is good because Battle Mage needs to participate.
2) Amished advocates lynching a lurker since a deadline was imposed and heeds Emp's request.
3) VP Baltar simply places a vote without waiting. I believe this is a vote to appease Emp's pursuit of Battle Mage as well as secure on a vote on another player since the Santos wagon lost its steam and died. IMO, this is a brilliant scum move to make as well as bypass Emp's request for gradual pressure on Battle Mage. I hope no one missed this.


Aaaaannnddd:

Evaluating claims takes time

That's funny. Because that would only 'take time' if those still with holding information from the rest of us never tell us anything. Crazy, right? Otherwise, it won't take time to evaluate anything if we are told everything we deserve to know at this point in the game.

[Santos]

I think anyone who was town/SK would think that based on his play and his claim. Turns out, we're wrong. Also, if he flipped scum you would have looked like a hero as the SK lol

[Santos]

Oh, I guess VP, Amished and Battle Mage aren't the only ones left with disclosing all they know: EmpTyger never provided a name, did he?

[Santos]

Oh, also, I think it would be very 'extravagant' for the mod to have an SK, psychiatrist, miller, doc and an alternating cop in this game.

I choose to remove the 'miller'. Anyone else?

[Santos]

crap, and Bus Driver...

wow

[Santos]

I want to hear your reason for the blue.

Because before you said anything I wanted to let everyone know that they're suspicions of EmpTyger could be alleviated with a 'not mafia' result.

lmao. That's some nice rolefishing you are attempting to carry off there before you are lynched Santos. If you are going to spend so much time fighting against it, I suggest you try to say something useful.

omfg, nice post...of nothing. scum. scum. scum. Have you no fight left in you?

curiouskarmadog, would you still offer your lynch after lynching VP Baltar if he doesn't flip scum? I think that you're exasperation towards this game makes you look very town, but many would argue 'ZOMG, AtE, lynch DA SCUM' but I don't see it that way and I've already provided why I think you're town. However, I would like to know if you would still advocate a VP Baltar lynch.

@Santos: I don't really follow your "HOLY FUCKING SHIT" paragraph well, but why would it be a stretch to gambit on me losing my ability if we're saying you're a rolethief?

Its actually more for Amished and how funny I thought it was that you mentioned the alternative that Amished apparently never considered in his attempt at offering what he would do in my situation on that day the wagon was going after you to steal the day away.

Hey, I've got an idea:

VP Baltar, what is your game plan for the next day when Santos-town-cop ends up being lynched today?

Amished, what is your game plan for the next day when Santos-town-cop ends up being lynched today?

RECKONER, what is your game plan for the next day when Santos-town-cop ends up being lynched today?

ZONEACE, what is your game plan for the next day when Santos-town-cop ends up being lynched today?

EmpTyger, what is your game plan for the next day when Santos-town-cop ends up being lynched today?

curiouskarmadog, I already have an idea of what you will do if the above happens...probably rip your dog hair right out.

Battle Mage, humor us with a fucking post that you want to be replaced or modkilled. It certainly wouldn't do much more harm than you already have to this day.

[Santos]

D1 you back off claimed cop because you thought it was a scum gambit (explained in retrospect)
D2 you hammer him for fakeclaiming and not providing a result (you wanted to see who he would try to clear D2 for him; and you didn't want to out yourself as cop) *gotten a result here*

I don't know how to answer for days I was not playing...especially considering that we're on Day 3 and haven't even had a Day 4...or am I on drugs?

However, in the current situation you're now casting suspicion on the two people

you've claimed to basically clear in your opinion (too townie VP and investigated EMP; with ZA corroboration)

and you look scummy as hell.

Strawman = bolded. Are you serious? I have refuted this... 'too townie' IN MY OPINION is extremely scummy, just the same as a town leader, as opposed to, a good town scum hunter...I see a huge difference. VP Baltar is not the latter in this game and neither are you.

(was what I had before the forums went down last night)

Yeah, that sucked because I had more to say later, as well.

[Santos]

Oh, and I'm still looking for something substantially impressive from VP Baltar other than an attempted victory at a pissing contest with myself.

psst, I'm winning

[Santos]

curious / vp pissing contest is so last week. now its emp / curious lol

I'll point you to the wiki page, because that explains it much better than I can. http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Too_Townie Seriously. Too townie = scum DOES NOT FOLLOW AT ALL. I don't give a shit if "it's a scumtell for you" because it's not a scumtell. Just like freeways aren't evil and because somebody is 7 for 7 at finding scum, they can still be wrong.

Whatever man. You've done nothing to scum hunt except try over and over to use a hypothetical case and strawman against me. You've also not even bothered with a name claim or full claim,

which would be useful to the town seeing as every fucking power role possible is already out there

.

Or prove me wrong. [/blatant role fish, baiting, you shits]

[Santos]

EBWOP: I was right about when Santos came in (page 11). That was well before xRx claimed and you could've explained everything "my" way if you're actually telling the truth.

Your way would have had RECKONER singing for a Santos lynch the next day if he turned up town.

If he flipped scum, then yes, we would have a very different mafia game,

but that is not what we have so please, hypotheticals are over and I appreciate you playing.

[Santos]

Because he already said in thread that it would be a smart scum move for me to claim cop and that I could have really role-thiefed him.

[Santos]

Interesting read since I last posted.

[Santos]

No result. I attempted to investigate curiouskarmadog.

Also, it appears if Jin had not died yesterday I would have been able to talk with him at night.

Interesting game.

[Santos]

lol, well this is fun. No result on my investigation of Amished.

Kind of a quick lynch on curiouskarmadog, eh? You all fucking suck. You suck as a whole and can't wait for shit to be discussed. You're all terrible, except you, VP Baltar.

I concede to a town loss.

[Santos]

Amished is vying for another quick ending.

[Santos]

Hmm, Jin and Sayid both had a hand in killing young Ben in season 5. Weird.

[Santos]

Amished will be a good choice tomorrow. So much for thinking slowly about the game as a whole, huh, EmpTyger?

[Santos]

No way is Reckoner/Amished mafia- Reckoner would not have asked which of {Jack, Sayid} to kill, and would not have hesitated after Jack was chosen. Lynch Santos today, and if game somehow continues, lynch Amished tomorrow.

Think about this, EmpTyger:

If you replace '{Jack, Sayid}' with {Sun, Jin}' in some alternate explanation, then you're basically using flavor to determine my guilt today.

Idiot.

[Santos]

He's got everything stacked against him:

ZONEACE - confirmed
EmpTyger - confirmed
RECKONER - confirmed

all that is left is

Amished
Santos

The only thing I have to corroborate my innocence is the blatant fact that my role changed to become the cop at night. Amished being a jailkeeper is the perfect explanation for me having no results at night, as well as, you not getting your result the first night you had the ability. The only night that was successful was when I didn't tell anyone I was the cop.

And what happened? I investigated EmpTyger, got 'Not Mafia' and revealed it the next day.

What did the mafia think then?

1) OHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT!!!!!!
or
2) We have to find some way to lynch this fucker because he has blown it all wide open with that fake claim to save RECKONER the day before.

Hmm!

[Santos]

and if you need a 3)

EmpTyger cleared ZONEACE, I cleared EmpTyger and RECKONER all in the same day. Who did that leave?

Vp Baltar - miller claim
Channel/Amished - lurked/came out gunnin
curiouskarmadog - now confirmed townie.

I'm not sure how much more its obvious that Amished HAS to be the last scum if we're all going to believe that everything that has happened before this post here is true.

[Santos]

Amished is mafia with me: not possible, because of Zoneace.
Amished is mafia with Zoneace: not possible, because of me.
Amished is mafia with Reckoner: a lot of things, but also mafia should have won last night. (Also, I mean, Reckoner should have just lynched Santos and won right now.)
Amished is mafia with Santos: we still lynch Santos.
Amished is solo remaining mafia: we can lynch Santos today, and there’s time to lynch Amished tomorrow.
Amished is not mafia: we lynch Santos.

There are only two possibilities anyone can legitmately consider today for obvious reasons:

1)Amished is solo remaining mafia: we can lynch Santos today, and there’s time to lynch Amished tomorrow. - Yes, good for you guys, but I lose after sitcking my neck out to save a RECKONER lynch, lie to the mafia on the same day with a fake iron (bulletproof) claim, and investigate one player who I couldn't get a read on.
2) Amished is not mafia: we lynch Santos. - if this happens I believe our fallen friends may be vindicated. (although their attitudes may say otherwise lol)

1 would be great and I don't have a problem sacrificing myself for a town win or 'an easy town win' as ZONEACE stated earlier, but by lynching me its becoming far more obscure each mis-lynch.

If you consider any of the other possibilities that you listed, EmpTyger, then all we've worked to attain boils down to the simplest, true way to play mafia: a game that means nothing in flavor, but expects us to effectively utilize our scum hunting skills and find the obvious signs of scum in the game.[/b] Oh wait, I think that is the point of us not to EVER trust the flavor of our players, but the true ability of work they've done to try and find the scum and lynch them. Period.

He {EMP} is talking about how xRx wouldn't ask which of VP or I to kill if xRx and I were scum partners. He knows that ZA is clear, so the only way a mislynch would lose the game is if there's two scum of the same group. xRx wouldn't hesitate to kill VP (or even ask) if he was partnered with me (from 3rd party perspective).

Ladies and Gentlemen...Amished!! *applause*

People WHO ARE TOWN: he even admits that he is the weakest link in any type of confirmation in this game. HELLO?

[Santos]

N2: xRx (likely the same reason, though I can see keeping a "confirmed" alive after being confirmed to Santos at the time)

So you jailed the only claimed cop? regardless if he lost his ability or not? WTF? Are you now going to say that you were protecting him from a night kill? LOL
Stuff like that should have been mentioned, yesterday, before lynching curiouskarmadog so he could celebrate a win with us.

I didn't jailkeep Santos, and I can't jailkeep myself so he's obviously trying to skate by without claiming any innocents to paint himself into a corner. Just playing off the speculation that scum have a roleblocker (by knowing they do, and he is it).

I can bathe in this WIFOM all day long, baby.

[Santos]

Uh, what happened?

[Santos]

Have submitted a ZONEACE kill and a Reckoner block.

How did this kill fail? An iron SK?

[Santos]

mod's lack of interest (RL?) hurt the game...the replacements hurt the game.

Hater

[Santos]

Yes, I have that wall of defense as a player where I have a hard time coping being lynched when I feel I've irrifutably proved my innocence. I accept my ignorance...

But when I am fighting to lynch CDB for lurking, VP for a miller claim, and Amished for being the least likely to be town towards the end of the game, then I getting fucking frustrated that the rest of the town won't listen to the evidence I've provided to lynch them. Turns out I pegged one scum, ignored game flavor (regarding that I should find Jin) and let one scum slip under the radar, and channeled most of my arguments against VP's miller claim.

I'm on my BB, so I can't post large content yet, sorry.

[Santos]

Why make the serial killer 1 shot bulletproof? Overpowered, amirite?

ZONEACE, congrats on not getting lynched Day 1 :p and congrats on your win. I think it was a clever way to deceive the town having him revert back, but I also believe it inconvenienced everyone.

[Santos]

Think of it this way- don’t lie D2, because then it’s that much harder for someone to believe you D3, D4, or D5.

So initially, I should have said I was the cop and been night killed just to confirm RECKONER? That is fucking dumb.

[Santos]

Guys, honestly, I feel I did a great job tricking the scum into thinking I was iron townie. I know it deceived the town as well, but it certainly made it easy for me to get THE ONLY INVESTIGATION COMPLETED by lying. You may hate it, but I felt I was doing everyone a favor by with holding what I knew and supplanting it with a white lie.

[Santos]

RECKONER, how do you feel about what I did? I've played the most games with you. Don't you expect me to do irrational, outlandish crap like this?

[Santos]

Well, I feel bad that I couldn't ignore your claim, VP. I hated it. I hate miller claims. You are forced to either press for a lynch on a miller claim or completely ignore it

as a cop

. I don't know how to look at that any other way. It screams 'wasted investigation' imo.