Mini 810: Infection! Mini - Game over!

[Shotty to the Body]

Red five, reporting in.

[Shotty to the Body]

vote: tajo

for being sick, clearly infected.

[Shotty to the Body]

Awww, I shouldnt have said I was sick.

Vote : Kelly Chen.

General RAAM agrees.

[Shotty to the Body]

I somewhat agree about the claim thing, its problematic for the PRs to claim when a counter-claim makes it a 50/50 lynch and then the liar kills himself that night and we lose out. Still, a 50/50 chance is better than just going down isn't it? If scum counter-claim they're risking a player which is (presumably?) half of their team. This is my first mini and we don't know how many scum or anything else there are out there. It doesn't make much sense to counter-claim either way because their very well could be two of the same power role out there. I like the idea of making a blanket decision one way or the other though.

[Shotty to the Body]

Well if he's genuine he'd probably inject himself that night if he hasn't already and he could tell town that if he'd claimed anyways, so he wouldn't become infected that first night in a good world. Buys an extra night of vaccine, after that I could see the mercy kill on him. I can't imagine more than one vigilante (this is the term yes?) in a twelve person game, three deaths a night seems excessive, but I could be wrong.

Also I had a question for the mod, maybe he didn't tell us this on purpose, but I wasn't sure. If a Guard targets an Infected that is suiciding to infect another player which ability takes priority? Does the Guard kill him and he doesn't get to infect his target or does he die and infect still? Or do we not get to know this?

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm glad you asked that. Guard kill takes priority over infection. The infected would be dead and the infection attempt would fail.

Thank you! =)

[Shotty to the Body]

I agree Charter, I'm saying while it may not be a bad idea to claim, it IS a bad idea to counter-claim as town since we don't know how many of each role is out there. You make a good point Mokina, but that's a case by case choice at any rate. I think I'm leaning with Charter here, seems like claims in this game could make it very messy.

[Shotty to the Body]

Why would town ever want to fake claim? =\

unvote vote:battle mage

[Shotty to the Body]

The problem with fake-claims is lying to your fellow town as a pro-town role isn't usually a good idea. Tricking your fellow town is as likely as tricking the scum. If you fake-claim scientist as bullet-proof that'll most likely waste vaccinates if there are other scientists and get a character that otherwise might've been NK proof shot by the guard. Fake-claiming bullet-proof as Scientist might work, but then again you might just get lynched if people don't think bullet-proof is justification for the votes on you (assuming you're claiming to avoid lynch). Protective PRs tend to avoid suspicion whereas a bullet-proof would have no problem being the best pro-town he could be to avoid guard kills or lynches. Guess my noobie logic will have to do for this post BM.

[Shotty to the Body]

I agree, where is the rest of the town? =P

[Shotty to the Body]

I agree, where is the rest of the town? =P

Trying as hard as possible not to get lynched. This game is strange in that people want to be NKed.

Lynch all lurkers!! Just kidding. =P It is odd that your alignment can switch mid-game, all your awesome towning can become a hindrance if you get infected. I'd still like to see everyone post.

[Shotty to the Body]

Shotty and Kid are my current top two suspects.

I'm still in favor of no counterclaims.

Any particular reason why? I'm more suspicious of all the people not posting anything that are flying under the radar.

[Shotty to the Body]

Shotty 31.

If scum counter-claim they're risking a player which is (presumably?) half of their team. This is my first mini and we don't know how many scum or anything else there are out there.

shooty, how newbie would you consider yourself? why did you assume that scum would risk half of their team when counterclaiming?

Shotty and Mokina why are you assuming two scum distribution?

I don't consider myself super newbie, I just haven't done any games outside the newbie queue before this one so I don't have a standard of comparison for the ratio of pro-town:scum players for mini themed or mini in general. I was assuming two for that example since that's what I'm used to from the newbie queue, but I realize that the numbers are actually up in the air.

[Shotty to the Body]

No lynch is not in our interest, if we don't scum hunt and actually lynch someone it will be near impossible for the Guard to determine who the scum are. Especially as we move into later days and the player that is scum changes it would be a shot in the dark if we just vote no lynch rather than being productive during the day. I would also agree with Mokina that even suggesting no lynch is slightly suspicious.

[Shotty to the Body]

Not that I don't have reasons, and I do plan on giving them, but why did people make a fuss when I said I was suspicious of Shotty and Kid but didn't give reasons, but when BM votes without giving a reason, no one questioned him?

I don't see how NL is remotely a good idea. Won't be supporting it.

I'd be interested to see them then, why are you holding back on us?

[Shotty to the Body]

The other major flaw in a NL plan is if the guard gets infected we won't know and then your plan becomes moot.

[Shotty to the Body]

Err one more question for the mod before I take off for the night, when someone dies who is infected (as in was infected at night instead of starting that way) will we be told what their role before infection was? Normally it's like XXX, Insert Role, died at night or whatever, will we just see XXX, Infected or will we get something like XXX, Infected <insert other role here>?
You will not learn the original role of Infected players.

[Shotty to the Body]

Not lynching scummy players in this game is a mistake. If we let someone who acts scummy slide they'll just kill themselves that night and we lose our chance at taking down a scum. This isn't a normal game where we could hold them in our pocket till we are ready to lynch them. The odds of shooting an infected player are exactly 1 in 6 if there are two scum and 1 in 4 if there are three scum. Those don't exactly seem like good odds to me. We need to have day time action to give the PRs something to work with instead of a shot in the dark after a NL.

FOS: Veerus

[Shotty to the Body]

Another vote without explanation? I love it, moar accusations without reasons so I can't defend myself thanks! I'm also tired of waiting for Charter to post his reasons for listing me and KKN as top suspects. If you want to vote me, can you tell me why so I can defend myself? This crap where someone votes or suspects without posting reasons is annoying and scummy. Scum do that sort of thing to make the town look harder at someone and when a genuine townie posts real reasons for a vote (mistaken or not) then the scum will be like "Of course that's why I was voting!!" All I've done this game is discuss and share my opinions with town and answer anything directed at me, so please tell me why BM you find me a votable target after a reread?

[Shotty to the Body]

I respond emotively when I feel like I'm getting a screw-job, if you don't like it that's a personal problem. I have no problem answering a reasoned argument, but you have presented none. How in god's name can you overemphasize reasons? Reasons are what we base our votes and lynches on, when you put no reasons with your vote it has the same impact as "I'm not scum," defenses. If you can't present legitimate reasons now, why are you voting? Voting me now subconsciously causes people to look out for and overreact to things they would have previously passed off causing them to make a hasty judgement which you sit in a position to jump on. I'm just as open to questions as you say you are, but you haven't actually asked me anything. What issues do you find with my posts? The only crime I've committed so far in my posts is disagreeing with you and the lack of reasons presented is leading me towards an OMGUS vote especially since I voted you early on. It's also very nice for you that your vote without reasons is a town-tell, but after that vote no others can be that way. Let's not even mention the WIFOM inherent in saying your vote without reasons is a town-tell because scum would never do that because it isn't cautious!

[Shotty to the Body]

Unvote

His suspicions may be bleh, but at least he's posting like Mokina said, looking forward to more.

[Shotty to the Body]

Will post on recent comments soon, don't have time for a read right now.

[Shotty to the Body]

I have several things to respond to so I'll break this up into parts.

Not lynching scummy players in this game is a mistake. If we let someone who acts scummy slide they'll just kill themselves that night and we lose our chance at taking down a scum. This isn't a normal game where we could hold them in our pocket till we are ready to lynch them. The odds of shooting an infected player are exactly 1 in 6 if there are two scum and 1 in 4 if there are three scum. Those don't exactly seem like good odds to me. We need to have day time action to give the PRs something to work with instead of a shot in the dark after a NL.

FOS: Veerus

Same question, Shooty. Can you find some protown motivation in veerus suggestion or do you think its more likely to come from scum?

I don't really see a pro-town motivation for a day one NL. There's very specific situations where NL is a good idea and they don't happen very often. If he was truly committed to it I could see why he kept pushing it, but I would consider it at least anti-town to push NL so hard.

PP, there are so many flaws in that plan it isn't even funny. You
1) Want all basic townies dead, which would out the power roles and most likely get them infected before they can be killed.
2) You might be able to, but if your plan fails we lose the game. Not worth the risk.
3) How are the townies supposed to commit suicide? Get mod-killed? We get one lynch a day, and I'm not wasting mine because you want to out the PRs and make a scum win more likely.

Unvote, Vote

PaperPenguin. That is probably the most anti-town statement I have ever heard.

BM- Post 129 was a misunderstanding, I thought LoS was Lynch on Sight as suggested. The post 127 was mainly to get his reaction. Your stance on Mokina doesn't entirely convince me, but I admit it was a fairly weak statement. It was mostly due, again, to the misunderstanding of what LoS meant.

I agree with the assessment of the plan, but I agree that this is more of a noob play then a malicious attempt by scum. Suggesting that all vanillas commit suicide is more insane than veerus' NL plan.

'm suspicious of Shotty for 39 where he says "I'm saying while it may not be a bad idea to claim, it IS a bad idea to counter-claim as town since we don't know how many of each role is out there" which is a direct contradiction to what he said in 31 with his talk about a counterclaim giving us a 50/50 chance of lynching scum (which it doesn't) being good, but which requires counterclaims. I really have no idea what brought this around other than looking like he wants to agree with me or Mokina.

Charter is either misunderstanding me or misinterpreting me on purpose. If you read 31 I said we had a 50/50 shot of taking a scum out if SCUM counter-claimed a legitimate town claim. Charter posted in 37 that he was afraid if town counter-claimed a legitimate town claim we would lynch two power roles. In 39 I say I agree with him (meaning 37 that we could lynch two PRs if a real PR counter-claims) that counter-claiming is a bad idea, but I still disagreed that claiming as a whole was a bad idea. We can judge each claim as they come, but counter-claiming probably wouldn't help us. There's no contradiction between my posts, I remain in favor of claiming as a PR instead of letting yourself be lynched and I defer to Charter that counter-claiming is probably not a good idea.

Shotty wayyyyy overreacts to two measly votes in 121.

See my response to BM, being emotive isn't a scum-tell, it means I'm involved and I care about what's happening. Two votes with no explanations is stupid, now that the reasons have been presented I can respond logically. If you vote with little to no logic you can't expect a defense that has logic either.

Ok, I went through all this. I'll keep it brief for now because I'm tired.

unvote

Battle Mage: I don't have a feel for his alignment but I think his posts have been helpful (directly or indirectly). And I agree with some of his recent opinions on other players. A bit concerned about his NL vote and the post where he explained it.

Mokina: Has anyone played with her before? Is she playing normally? I'm sorry to say that the vibes I've gotten from her are not too good.

I have some suspicions of Shotty and fallen.

I was thinking I liked Rally, but on rereading a couple of things bothered me.

I can't come to much conclusion on charter, malt, pop.

I have a positive feeling about veerus.

I can't see from Paper's posts why he'd be scum. Normally I would take his apparent flaking as a small scumtell, but he's just a Goon if I remember correctly, so I don't guess what happened.

I was liking Kid but I can't remember why.

I'm going to have to flesh this out a bit later.

More suspicions without reasons which turn into votes, can you explain your suspicions of myself and fallen? What bad vibes are you getting from Mokina? I would've waited since you said you were going to flesh it out, but you posted this morning and didn't.

[Shotty to the Body]

Sorry I've been absent. Doing some re-reading.

[Shotty to the Body]

I must admit right now after re-reading a couple of Rally's posts and doing a full re-read of all of Veerus' posts I am not liking his town odds. I don't really see any attempts at scum-hunting from Veerus, all he does is propagate his NL plan. He doesn't scum hunt so he has no suspects so he likes the idea of NL. He claims that town is in a favorable position if we let our night roles shoot it out with the scum. The scum have a huge advantage during any night time action, scum know who is on their side and who isn't, scum get to pick anyone for the scientist(s) to counter them (t)he(y) would have to be everywhere, the guard is more likely to shoot a fellow townie then a scumbag, and meanwhile the scum get to infect a player of their choice. I already pointed out to him our bad odds at night against scum and he still pushes this plan. I agree with Rally's 221, we really need to pay more attention to Veerus' actions or rather his lack of them.

Vote: Veerus

[Shotty to the Body]

Unless I'm mistaken BM's last post was Sunday last week. I thought the posting requirement in this game was at least one per three days?

Mod: Has BM been prodded?

[Shotty to the Body]

Shotty, is veerus the lynch?

Very possibly, I'm leaning towards him or FA, though I nee to reread Charter's posts about Kise. I'm coming home from vacation tomorrow I'll be writing up a more thoughtful post then.

[Shotty to the Body]

Day 1 Vote Count

Mokina -

2

(Kelly Chen, Battle Mage)
veerus -

2

(Rally Vincent, Shotty to the Body)
fallen angel -

2

(populartajo, Kise)
Kise -

2

(fallen angel, charter)
populartajo -

1

(Kid Know Nothing)
Rally Vincent -

1

(veerus)

Not voting: malthusis, Mokina
With 12 alive it will take 7 to lynch

Deadline: July 21

Okay, time to sort this mess.

Chen and BM, why are you voting Mokina? Who is your second suspect?

Shotty, why are you voting veerus? Who is your second suspect?

Charter and fallen, why are you voting Kise? Who is your second suspect?

veerus, why are you voting Vincent? Who is your second suspect?

Veerus has done little to nothing besides push NL and claim we have no clear idea who to lynch so we just shouldn't. I feel like a lack of scumhunting for a majority for the day makes his plan self-fufilling(sp?) as he doesn't scum hunt, therefore has no suspects, therefore likes NL. My second would be FA, but his V/LA status means I have a hard time asking him questions at this time.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm willing to shift my vote if necessary to prevent no lynch, but I'd hope we can come to a consensus before we're forced into lynching based on deadline. Why did you switch to FA instead of Kise, Rally?

[Shotty to the Body]

Well the mod didn't give us an exact time and I'm not risking NL.

Unvote, Vote: Fallenangel

[Shotty to the Body]

Well the question becomes how to proceed from here, if there were three scum to start we have another to hunt and we can look at yesterdays actions. If not, we could be hunting a ghost and the newly infected can play off that for a mislynch. Either way yesterday's actions can't really be considered evidence of innocence so we are essentially back to square one, but one step closer to winning after we hit FA.

[Shotty to the Body]

What I meant was if there are two left (starting with three and lynching one) we can look at yesterday to ascertain the second's identity, it almost seems like we have to assume that to have any kind of debate, but we could be setting ourselves up.. Obviously we have a newly infected one we know nothing about as of yet.

[Shotty to the Body]

EBWOP: We don't have a new scum for sure, but if the attack succeeded we do.

[Shotty to the Body]

Guard got infected? Guard didn't want to shoot someone when they weren't sure of alignment? How does the phrasing of the mod's post imply no security guard? It's pretty clear that Malthisus died of infection according to the death post, I'm pretty sure somewhere in D1 we talked about the guard not randomly shooting people if he wasn't sure.

[Shotty to the Body]

Double posting your sig again BM! Do I get another case posted on me now? xD

[Shotty to the Body]

I have to agree with The Replacement that speculating about vaccinations probably isn't going to get us there, it's wheels with wheels trying to guess a vaccination and then counter-guess the scums infection pick, makes my head hurt just thinking about it and isn't very helpful. Are you still suspicious of Veerus over his NL plan Rally?

[Shotty to the Body]

If you vaccinate an infected player, you prevent them from infecting that night.

Do you really think that one post by Chen made Malthisus feel like infecting her BM?

[Shotty to the Body]

Yeah I was about to point that out, that doesn't make sense Charter. Do you think I was infected last night or do you think I've been scum from the start? You can't have both and this smells like role-fishing to me.

[Shotty to the Body]

It's more of a gut feeling, not sure how to explain it to you, but I don't see how he could write such an inherent contradiction into his post on without having some ulterior motive and it sticks out to me because of that.

[Shotty to the Body]

I have to agree with RV, FA was sunk so far in it would've been hard to pull him out of the hole as Veerus-scum. Even if he tried it might backfire and then they would be down two players. If veerus is scum his only play there considering how many people were MIA etc was to bus FA.

[Shotty to the Body]

I understand where you're coming from with the original scum theory, but what makes you so sure he didn't get infected? Yesterday he was fairly active and came up with a plan that he thought was helpful to town and commented on most everything. Today he's done nada. Thoughts?

[Shotty to the Body]

Im posting in this game tonight.

In the meanwhile, I want EVERYONE to comment in their following post.

How many scum LEFT do you think there are? And why?

Two scum left, I had originally thought there would only be two scum total because of the way recruitment in this game worked, but I've reconsidered. If there were only two scum a D1 lynch followed by a guard kill, hitting a scientist protectee, hitting a test subject or any combination of these would result in D1 gameover for infected team, so that can't make any sense. Post 358 by Malthisus is a giveaway, but I did not think of it that way until you and Charter pointed it out.

[Shotty to the Body]

Making a post tomorrow.

[Shotty to the Body]

Mind posting some reasons for that Chen? You completely buy BM's guard claim? Why do you think Kid is completely cleared?

[Shotty to the Body]

I don't really have any problem with what charter is proposing, I'm still waiting for the separate post from Chen that she promised to explain why she thought I was scum.

[Shotty to the Body]

[quotw="Kelly Chen"]1. he can be seen as feeling out Rally to see if veerus can still be voted. He agrees with Rally. When charter doesn't agree, Shotty still wonders if veerus could be recruited. charter doesn't really agree and Shotty drops the subject.
2. asked BM whether he thinks I made malthusis recruit me with one post. Actually I think this was just an easy question to ask, as I don't think BM could have supplied Shotty with additional arguments that would help Shotty vote me at that time.
3. Shotty's strongest stated suspicion today was about charter's inconsistent theory. This doesn't result in a vote, FOS, or even follow-up comment when charter doesn't answer the issue. Isn't that extremely odd? I suspect that Shotty didn't see charter as a viable lynch target. So while it was worthwhile to point out a suspicion (backed up by another player already, how nice), it didn't look profitable to go after him.

Plus, charter basically dropped his Shotty suspicion immediately, so why tempt it to return. It just looks like Shotty wants to be friends with charter if at all possible.

I'm sad Shotty didn't get to post between my vote and unvote for charter.

4. His questions of me are why I ruled out BM and Kid. He doesn't present his own suspicions, and he doesn't question any of my scum possibilities except himself. Doesn't he want to say, that no, veerus can't be scum, or that maybe he could be scum? Does he want to talk about Rally, or anything?
5. When has Shotty ever expressed suspicion of Mokina/Replacement? He mentioned Replacement once (an agreement with him), and only buddied with Mokina. He's just ok with trusting charter that she/he's the lynch today?

So in conclusion, confirm vote: Shotty[/quote]

1. Rally's been in favor of lynching Veerus the entire time, I wanted to know if he still thought Veerus was scum after flipping FA on D1. I said before I didn't think the NL plan was scummy, my suspicion moved away as he became a more active participant on D2. Charter's post 495 gave some pretty convincing reasons that Veerus is most likely clean and I didn't see much evidence to the contrary.

2. I thought that was a thin assertion to make so I asked him to clarify, not sure what you're pointing out here.

3. Charter has been on several people's (possibly) newly infected scum lists, but not mine, so I haven't pushed for his lynch. I was pretty sure of his townishness yesterday and nothing he's done today has changed my mind about that.

4. Sorry I didn't give you all of my ideas before I finished asking you about yours, that would be stupid because my ideas could change your answers and I wanted to see what you had to say first. Maybe I'm a selfish ass, but I like to answer people's suspicions about me before I talking about others, ignoring your suspicions of me and moving to talk about others right away is a scummy deflection, even if you want me to do that apparently.

5. Kise and Veerus both made similar votes based on Charter's analysis on page 22, he did the leg work without a doubt and I hadn't done a lot of looking at The Replacement before, but does that mean I should totally ignore a logical line of reasoning? Do you have a problem with Kise and Veerus "trusting" Charter as well? I don't have to trust the player to trust a logical argument.

I like how in the PBPA I'm apparently silly for not questioning Veerus as a recruitment choice after I decided he wasn't original scum even though two posts above that one Kelly ridicules the idea of Veerus being a recruitment choice.

As far as my question about KKN goes your position is still rather muddled as far as I can see, you claim to have cleared him in your mind, but you admit in 577 you thought he was scummy yesterday so what's the deal?

[Shotty to the Body]

mother of all Ws FML.

Fixed

1. he can be seen as feeling out Rally to see if veerus can still be voted. He agrees with Rally. When charter doesn't agree, Shotty still wonders if veerus could be recruited. charter doesn't really agree and Shotty drops the subject.
2. asked BM whether he thinks I made malthusis recruit me with one post. Actually I think this was just an easy question to ask, as I don't think BM could have supplied Shotty with additional arguments that would help Shotty vote me at that time.
3. Shotty's strongest stated suspicion today was about charter's inconsistent theory. This doesn't result in a vote, FOS, or even follow-up comment when charter doesn't answer the issue. Isn't that extremely odd? I suspect that Shotty didn't see charter as a viable lynch target. So while it was worthwhile to point out a suspicion (backed up by another player already, how nice), it didn't look profitable to go after him.

Plus, charter basically dropped his Shotty suspicion immediately, so why tempt it to return. It just looks like Shotty wants to be friends with charter if at all possible.

I'm sad Shotty didn't get to post between my vote and unvote for charter.

4. His questions of me are why I ruled out BM and Kid. He doesn't present his own suspicions, and he doesn't question any of my scum possibilities except himself. Doesn't he want to say, that no, veerus can't be scum, or that maybe he could be scum? Does he want to talk about Rally, or anything?
5. When has Shotty ever expressed suspicion of Mokina/Replacement? He mentioned Replacement once (an agreement with him), and only buddied with Mokina. He's just ok with trusting charter that she/he's the lynch today?

So in conclusion, confirm vote: Shotty

1. Rally's been in favor of lynching Veerus the entire time, I wanted to know if he still thought Veerus was scum after flipping FA on D1. I said before I didn't think the NL plan was scummy, my suspicion moved away as he became a more active participant on D2. Charter's post 495 gave some pretty convincing reasons that Veerus is most likely clean and I didn't see much evidence to the contrary.

2. I thought that was a thin assertion to make so I asked him to clarify, not sure what you're pointing out here.

3. Charter has been on several people's (possibly) newly infected scum lists, but not mine, so I haven't pushed for his lynch. I was pretty sure of his townishness yesterday and nothing he's done today has changed my mind about that.

4. Sorry I didn't give you all of my ideas before I finished asking you about yours, that would be stupid because my ideas could change your answers and I wanted to see what you had to say first. Maybe I'm a selfish ass, but I like to answer people's suspicions about me before I talking about others, ignoring your suspicions of me and moving to talk about others right away is a scummy deflection, even if you want me to do that apparently.

5. Kise and Veerus both made similar votes based on Charter's analysis on page 22, he did the leg work without a doubt and I hadn't done a lot of looking at The Replacement before, but does that mean I should totally ignore a logical line of reasoning? Do you have a problem with Kise and Veerus "trusting" Charter as well? I don't have to trust the player to trust a logical argument.

I like how in the PBPA I'm apparently silly for not questioning Veerus as a recruitment choice after I decided he wasn't original scum even though two posts above that one Kelly ridicules the idea of Veerus being a recruitment choice.

As far as my question about KKN goes your position is still rather muddled as far as I can see, you claim to have cleared him in your mind, but you admit in 577 you thought he was scummy yesterday so what's the deal?

[Shotty to the Body]

Reread Shotty and he doesn't look that good. I can see him as either original scum or infected.
40 is incredibly scummy.

He has agreed with me on almost everything, which I don't really think makes a whole lot of sense due to my stance on FA yesterday. I also find the fact that he has not voted at all today scummy.

Shotty, why have you not voted today? Who are you most suspicious of and why?

unvote

Argh, I am really torn here. Shotty doesn't look very good. He definately hasn't been looking for or trying to lynch scum today. I also kind of get the feeling that he's waiting for someone to get to L-1 and speedhammer then suicide tonight.

I am like 95% sure at least one of Replacement and Shotty is scum after rereading him, but unfortunately we only get one shot at this.

What changed your mind about me being original scum? That makes no sense. If I was original scum I would not have hammered FA, taken the NL for D1 and killed myself, leaving Malthisus + Recruited while the town wasted another day trying to kill FA.

I haven't voted because both my targets are essentially no goes. I don't want to vote The Replacement until he is replaced or we're backed against a deadline and I think BM is the other scum to be honest. Who forgets their guard power? I think BM was the guard or the guard got infected so he's safe using that claim to blow through today. He claimed at 3 votes which kept any sort of real wagon from forming before two people jumped off. Now he's just laying low while we lynch someone else so he can suicide. Voting him now is pointless because I won't get a lynch on a guard claim despite the fact all he's done today is lurk after he made his claim. The scum won't forget that he's guard if he really is so he should be doing everything he can to post a lot and be pro-town right now. Assuming we have a scientist and he targets BM that won't make a difference, but I don't want to participate in a mislynch while we wait.

Why in the name of God would I be sitting around to speed-lynch suicide? I haven't been near the top of anyone's list until just recently, I simply have no reason to do that even as scum. That's all WIFOM however so I'm not going into it further. What gave you that feeling? Is that just some hunch or what?

[Shotty to the Body]

That theory all hinges on someone else showing up, as you correctly noted before that lynch it took everyone there to do it, I could've easily held off on lynching FA without much risk there.

How is being informed scummy? The only way to figure out other people is to keep track of their opinions, so when someone switches a vote without much explanation it makes sense to ask them why. I didn't try to convince RV to change his vote, he simply didn't supply any reasons so I wanted to know where he was coming from. He'd only mentioned FA once in recent memory up to that point.

What major discussion was I ignoring? The posts about KKN? I was still waiting for Chen's post explanation post about why she voted me so I could respond, why do I get crucified for not deflecting?

By the way I asked you why not voting today was scummy, and all you did was reiterate that it was. Both the people I think are scum are hardly lynchable so my vote doesn't mean shit, afaik you gave up on your BM suspicions for today which I disagree, I agree with your Replacement suspicions. If I had voted I'd be getting crucified for going for an easy lynch on two people not here for the most part (BM) or not at all (The Replaced). cwutididthar?

[Shotty to the Body]

That theory all hinges on someone else showing up, as you correctly noted before that lynch it took everyone there to do it, I could've easily held off on lynching FA without much risk there.

I don't think it does. You made your promise to ensure a lynch a ways before deadline, then I feel like you had no chance but to honor it. This whole argument is WIFOM, so it's largely pointless. However, if there was a no lynch by one vote and you weren't on, you'd come under fire the next day. If FA suicided that night, you'd be lynched for sure. If FA lived through the night, he would come under heavy fire the next day, as would you. Hammering I think is a null tell, what was suspicious was you trying to get someone besides FA lynched.

I didn't try to lynch anyone else or convince people otherwise, the wagons were equal and RV didn't post much about PP/Kise or FA up to that point so I asked him why he voted one over the other.

How is being informed scummy?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here.

By asking people where they stand you become informed, I've been repeatedly criticized for asking people for their thoughts. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

What major discussion was I ignoring? The posts about KKN? I was still waiting for Chen's post explanation post about why she voted me so I could respond, why do I get crucified for not deflecting?

Myself, Kelly, and RV were posting significant thoughts on most players. I believe Kise chimed in as well. You didn't really say what you thought on anyone, just popped in to question why you were being voted.

No one asked me to give a run-down of every player in the game, you were all answering each others questions, RV was the only one who gave a complete rundown of LoS and doing that gives scum a target list of who's "infectable" and who isn't.

By the way I asked you why not voting today was scummy, and all you did was reiterate that it was. Both the people I think are scum are hardly lynchable so my vote doesn't mean shit, afaik you gave up on your BM suspicions for today which I disagree, I agree with your Replacement suspicions. If I had voted I'd be getting crucified for going for an easy lynch on two people not here for the most part (BM) or not at all (The Replaced). cwutididthar?

Not voting is scummy because then no one knows where you actually stand on people. Also scummy because scum like to stall/lurk until they get a good feel of where everyone is at, and then start talking in order to benefit themselves. Voting for The Replacement would have been totally acceptable, as would voting BM. That right there is practically a scumfession, refusing to vote because you're afraid of the consequences. No one has been crucified for placing a vote and I can't see a townie being afraid of voting.

Right, townies never worry about the consequences of their actions, by trying to avoid something scummy I do something scummy? Pushing for an easy lynch is easily twisted into something scummy. There's your rock and a hard place.

Vote: The Replacement

If I had to choose BM should be countered by either PR in the game so Replace is my choice. Have at it, watch me get criticized for voting now.

[Shotty to the Body]

Your post 540 pretty much sold me on the Replacement charter, the PRs should be able to wrap this up if we make the correct lynch. Out of the pair I think are scum he's the logical choice. The BM situation should take care of itself via guard or sci and you posted several compelling reasons that the Replacement could've been scum. Poptajo's pairing also makes sense though, Chen and KKN have had each other's backs. KKN 472 defends Chen against BM, which was his last post before disappearing if that means anything to you all, and Chen has been calling KKN town for reasons only she understands since 566. I can see either one of those pairings being logical, but my money is with the BM/Replacement for the lynch. Even if we mislynch the Replacement, BM shoots Chen or KKN in the face and we get another scum down. I'm really reserved about BM's claim though, his post 534 was ecstatic when someone else suggested he be left alone and he's done nothing but lurk since. His one post, 595, pretty much assures me that KC scum and BM scum are mutually exclusive.

[Shotty to the Body]

charter has target fixation now, no matter what I post he's seeing it as scummy.

What else am I supposed to say about it charter? You worked all the angles on Mokina and that evidence is pretty thick, I don't see how you can think the original scum case on me is stronger than that one considering you were confident enough to say Mokina was definitely 100% scum yesterday. I pointed out two posts that could tie KKN and Chen together, it was relevant to the case pairing pop mentioned so I thought I would post it so the town could make their own opinions. I fucking said I think Replacement/BM is the scum pair and I've been saying that, I'm not omniscient so I had to consider the possibility tajo has the correct pairing and I don't, so I posted something about it. I don't give a shit who BM shoots because I don't think he's actually a guard, that's just a possible scenario if I'm wrong and pop is right.

[Shotty to the Body]

Mostly Mokina's D1 play, in retrospect. She was not on the FA wagon, she buddied harcore and encouraged confidence in FA early in the day, and did nothing but policy votes on lurkers. Like I said, your post 540 was pretty damning and I didn't find anything different when I re-read D1.

[Shotty to the Body]

Charter's 540 actually pertains to you and has some points you should probably answer tubby.

[Shotty to the Body]

Nvm you're KKN not the replacement, I'm getting confused. /facepalm.

[Shotty to the Body]

Nvm you're KKN not the replacement, I'm getting confused. /facepalm.

[Shotty to the Body]

And my browser double posts, awesome.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm also waiting for the Replacement's replacement and also tubby's iso reads.

[Shotty to the Body]

Tell me about it, I made three waste of space posts at the top of this page because of that.

[Shotty to the Body]

And before you were so torn between me and the Replacement, how long before it's BM and tubby? What happened to your 100% surety that Mokina was scum?

[Shotty to the Body]

So let me double-check this tubby. You replace a player you think was scummy enough to lynch by the 14th page. After your re-reads you've been all over the place, with RV or myself or Kise (as an afterthought) as original scum and then Kelly or Veerus or BM (as an afterthought once again) as infected in your 637. You change your mind about BM after he admits he was fake-claiming because of....? Didn't see any real reasons other than that you would do the same thing drunk? Now you've switched Veerus from infected to original scum, even though you'd already read D1 when you said you thought he was infected. Your stream of consciousness posting is full of back-tracking and contradictions, mind codifying your position for me?

BM what's with the fake-claim man? Is your real claim VT now? You have been ever so unhelpful as a vanilla if that's your claim. Everyone here knows your scum meta is lurker and that's all you've done this entire day after a fake-claim, even if you aren't lynched you haven't helped us at all. If the roles weren't open I'd say you'd been playing like a jester ffs.

Tajo, Veerus, anything to say or is it just a lynch liars policy vote or what?

Kise, what is that 663? OMGUS much?

[Shotty to the Body]

So are you going to answer my post tubby?

[Shotty to the Body]

i dont like charters feigned aggression, or flaming, but let's cut the bs here:

Can somebody please coherently outline the reasons behind me being wagonned earlier today?

BM

Early D2 BM PBPA

382 - Is sure we only had two scum at the start and wants to clear everyone still alive of being original scum.
384 - Insists that Malthusis would've infected a strong player
394 - Breadcrumb that guard forgot to shoot.
RV Votes BM (395)
398 - Says anyone, specifically RV, who pushes the 3 scum theory is scummy. Lots of WIFOM defense against RV.
403 - Non-content.
404 - Sticks to two-scum theory in defense, insisting everyone was town yesterday. Says RV has to prove his (BM's) D2 play is scummy to make a case. More WIFOM defense that BM would've suicided on N1 if he was scum. Lots of minimizing of RV's arguments I felt.
406 - More of the same, lots of superiority and arrogance here, similar to his if you think I'm scum you're a boy in scum-hunting post.
408 - "... paper?"
411 - Decides it's pointless to look at D1.
412 - More back and forth with RV.
416 - Points at last line of RV's 405, didn't really make sense.
417 - OMGUS vote to RV by my read. Claims it wasn't serious.
419 - Claims RV was lying, honestly he's just driving over the top of RV and not really answering the points.
421 - More of the same.
423&424 - Links to other games.
425 - Clears Kise and Veerus.
427 - Asks for prods (lol irony)
428 - Says he doesn't suspect Mokina at all.
430 - Suspects charter of infection.
431 - Says KKN and Veerus will need prods in 3 hours.
432 - Rereads Mal but totally misses the post about 3 scum he made. Vague mention of Chen, painting her as scum?
Replacement Votes BM (433) 2 Votes
437 - Pushing Chen as infected. Says Mokina must be town due to two-scum.
438 - Accuses the Replacement of being a noob, claims logical defense in face of circular reasoning claims by Replacement.
440 - Continues pushing Chen lynch.
442 - Non-content.
Charter Votes BM (443) 3 Votes
445 - BM claims guard.
446 - Admits breadcrumbing guard.
449 - Sarcasm.
457 - Says directing Sci is bad idea after Charter suggests Sci target BM.
459 - Votes Kelly Chen with no reasons and asks for others to post about her.
460 - Continues to push away Sci targeting him, misinterprets Scientist role.
463 - Says he would pick Chen or Charter to infect.
470 - Says he's willing to lynch RV.
471 - Tries to explain why he claimed so early.
477 - Explains Chen vote.
478 - Missing quote tags explanation.
486 - Continues to ignore possibility of original scum.
487 - As opinion starts to swing away from two scum theory so does BM. Asks if people would lynch Pop, on the fence much?
492 - Knocks down Chen's ideas.
493 - More of the same from 492.
503 - Accuses Charter of weakly defending Veerus.
505 - Says unwillingness to clear people by Charter is scummy.
506 - Says RV could be recruited.
517 - Says Tajo is town, brushes off that RV isn't scummy.
534 - Agrees with Kise that BM should be left alone.
595 - Anti-prod, says Chen is still his suspect.

BM vanishes for a long ass time after this, satisfied that his guard claim got him off the hook.

652 - Admits to fake-claiming. Welcomes tubby.
654 - Says he doesn't like Tajo voting for him.
656 - Arrogant shit about men from boys. Claims he can't be scum for more WIFOM reasoning.
679 - Worried about being killed by guard or protected by Sci.
680 - Buddying tubby.
681 - Wants an outline of people's case on him.



Honestly, I don't see a damn reason BM wasn't lynched except for his fake-claim. All his bull about not being scum because he would've suicided is WIFOM garbage, even beyond that BM is so arrogant I totally buy him telling Malthusis to suicide so he can carry the scum-team home even if he was in a weaker spot. He's constantly discouraged being targeted by the scientist who would keep him from infecting if he were scum and he rode Kise's post to get people to stop targeting him and then lurked away.

We've been operating this entire time under the assumption Malthusis' infection went through. If it didn't, BM would have to make a one-man retarded gambit to save his (and the scum teams) skin. He was getting run-up for being scummy on D1, despite everything he could do to try to get town to ignore D1 early on in D2, resulting in a quick guard claim to get people of his back before we really started digging. Now realizing that he's going to get his face shot-off tonight by the real guard and won't get to infect even if his claim worms him out of the lynch he's decided to resurface and try to get the PRs off his back.

He's been buddying tubby since tubby replaced in. Due to BM's repeated mention of almost everyone, it's a bit odd he never EVER talked about KKN at the beginning of the day except that he should be prodded. Either the buddying is a scum-ploy arranged through day-talk to clear tubby or BM is just playing off tubby's willingness to clear him based on his insane fake-claim.

Unvote, Vote: BM

[Shotty to the Body]

EBWOP: It's the entire day's PBPA, it started out as just up to when he claimed, but I got into it so there ya go.

[Shotty to the Body]

If BM really fakeclaimed for us to find scum by leaving him out, he'd have shut up and taken a guard kill on him for the team. That claim was the only thing that made me unvote BM in the first place. Since then, BM lurked again and did nothing to find scum.

I was fine with that, until someone raised the possibility of me being protected, which means i wouldnt die.

You still havent taken up my offer to explain your vote on me.

I could see Veerus as being scum, getting bussed.

BM

Why the hell would tubby-veerus team bus when they could just kill you for the easy lynch? Deflect more. Also Scientist protection won't save you from vig kill, it blocks infections, stop misrepresenting the role to your advantage.

[Shotty to the Body]

Impromptu vote count has BM at L-1.

[Shotty to the Body]

Did you read my post charter? Seriously you've been fixating hardcore, could you at least tell me what you think?

[Shotty to the Body]

What crack pipe are you smoking tubby? Quit sucking up to BM and let some thought in for fuck's sake. Your defense of him is so pathetic.

How is my talk about suicide BS? Malthusis had to SUICIDE TO INFECT, HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GAME? WE'VE BEEN CALLING IT SUICIDING THE WHOLE TIME!!!!!!!!!

Also what the fuck do you mean by "cut a deal." The fuck is that shit? You haven't answered anything I've asked you and have been incredibly unhelpful.

Keep it civil, please.

[Shotty to the Body]

What crack pipe are you smoking tubby? Quit sucking up to BM and let some thought in for fuck's sake. Your defense of him is so pathetic.

How is my talk about suicide BS? Malthusis had to SUICIDE TO INFECT, HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GAME? WE'VE BEEN CALLING IT SUICIDING THE WHOLE TIME!!!!!!!!!

Also what the fuck do you mean by "cut a deal." The fuck is that shit? You haven't answered anything I've asked you and have been incredibly unhelpful.

Hush grown folks is talkin

Grown folks learn how to spell and punctuate. Not to mention answer posts directed at them.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'll be back later, going to cool off.

[Shotty to the Body]

Truth, let me go back over the beginning of the day before I reply to BM.

[Shotty to the Body]

i dont like charters feigned aggression, or flaming, but let's cut the bs here:

Can somebody please coherently outline the reasons behind me being wagonned earlier today?

BM

Early D2 BM PBPA

382 - Is sure we only had two scum at the start and wants to clear everyone still alive of being original scum.

Yep. But how is that scummy? Given i was under no suspicions Day 1.
I do concede with hindsight, i may have been wrong on this.

I feel like the fact you were lurking was definitely noticed and you certainly had RV's attention at the beginning of D2. I feel like by dismissing D1 you were weaseling out of the charges he was marshaling based on your D1 play.

RV Votes BM (395)
398 - Says anyone, specifically RV, who pushes the 3 scum theory is scummy. Lots of WIFOM defense against RV.

let's see this WIFOM defence then.

If you are following the 3 scum theory, you can take as red that i am not that 3rd scumbag. If i was, i'd have gladly taken the bullet last night over Malthusis, given how useless i was on Day 1. And you can see already that im playing alot differently to Day 1 in terms of activity (due to me having a bit more time on my hands, and feeling like the game has a restart so i dont have lots to catch up on).

In other words, the only case you have on me, is that i was infected last night. Hence my meta change. But, do you really believe scum would infect me after Day 1? *shrug* It's possible i guess. But not particularly likely.

You repeatedly reiterate that you would've suicided if you were scum, but you could've not because you thought we'd think that. The very essence of WIFOM.

403 - Non-content.
404 - Sticks to two-scum theory in defense, insisting everyone was town yesterday. Says RV has to prove his (BM's) D2 play is scummy to make a case. More WIFOM defense that BM would've suicided on N1 if he was scum. Lots of minimizing of RV's arguments I felt.

In defence of what? Thus far, you havent given anything to suggest that i'm scummy.

This was the PBPA, I put why I thought you were scummy at the bottom. You were clearly defending yourself against RV here, what you think of his arguments is your own business. I felt like the way you defended yourself against him was scummy, I mean. your actions up to that point weren't very town so you didn't have much in the way of defense besides minimizing his points and trying to deflect attention away from D1.

406 - More of the same, lots of superiority and arrogance here, similar to his if you think I'm scum you're a boy in scum-hunting post.

I stand by that post. There are times, as town, i deserve to be lynched, and there are times i don't. If i was someone else, voting for me right now, id be rightfully ashamed when i flip town. Arrogance is not scummy.

Didn't say it was, but it can certainly be frustrating at times. Like I said, I tried not to color the PBPA, I just summarized as much as possible here and that was the tone I felt.

419 - Claims RV was lying, honestly he's just driving over the top of RV and not really answering the points.

lying about what?

Lol, lets stick to the facts eh?

You said i was under pressure at the end of Day 1, in order to validate your claim that you had exhibited suspicion of me yesterday. Neither of these turned out to be true.

You also claimed that Malthusis was under pressure yesterday-specifically, more pressure than me. I think i've aptly pointed out that Malthusis was in fact, not under significant pressure, and thus, you lied here too.

That's what you said. I felt that Malthusis would've come under suspicion on D2, much as happened to you, had he not suicided that night. He wasn't on the scum wagon and I think even if you were in a weaker position, which is sketchy, you would've asked him to bite the shit sandwich and continued on.

445 - BM claims guard.
446 - Admits breadcrumbing guard.
449 - Sarcasm.
457 - Says directing Sci is bad idea after Charter suggests Sci target BM.

This is consistent with me not actually being guard, as i stated above. Didnt want to be protected.

460 - Continues to push away Sci targeting him, misinterprets Scientist role.

Again, consistent.

Also consistent with the theory I posted. You mentioned these PRs simply being safeclaims for scum at one point and I think you believed that about the guard since there was no N1 kill, but was worried about being vaccinated and discovered so you had to reveal your claim as fake.

BM vanishes for a long ass time after this, satisfied that his guard claim got him off the hook.

652 - Admits to fake-claiming. Welcomes tubby.

I was under no pressure when i admitted the guard claim was false. You havent given any reason why i would do this as scum.

I vanished because i wasnt really sure how to approach this game. I always had doubts about the fakeclaim, but i did breadcrumb the fact i was not actually the Guard. Not that it really matters.

Yes I did, if there really is a guard or if the Scientist vaccinates you and you're the only remaining scum then your sunk. If malthusis failed to infect last night he left you in a shitty spot and you have to avoid that vaccination or vig kill.

Honestly, I don't see a damn reason BM wasn't lynched except for his fake-claim. All his bull about not being scum because he would've suicided is WIFOM garbage, even beyond that BM is so arrogant I totally buy him telling Malthusis to suicide so he can carry the scum-team home even if he was in a weaker spot. He's constantly discouraged being targeted by the scientist who would keep him from infecting if he were scum and he rode Kise's post to get people to stop targeting him and then lurked away.

I will note, you havent given any reason to suspect me OTHER than the fake-claim. The fact the original votes on me were bs, doesnt bother you at all?

I believe RV had

a

several legitimate reasons for voting you, The Replacement voted you for your WIFOM defense, also reasonable, and Charter's 443 provided plenty of reasoning behind his vote. I don't think there was any bullshit except that which you created to ward off RV. I mean you didn't even give us time to talk about the votes or the reasons behind them because you claimed so quickly at L-3. Sorta shot yourself in the foot there if you wanted to discuss their reasons.

He's been buddying tubby since tubby replaced in. Due to BM's repeated mention of almost everyone, it's a bit odd he never EVER talked about KKN at the beginning of the day except that he should be prodded. Either the buddying is a scum-ploy arranged through day-talk to clear tubby or BM is just playing off tubby's willingness to clear him based on his insane fake-claim.

erm, since he replaced in? thats been about a page right. It was nice to see a friendly face whose opinion i can seriously respect.

Or, i could just be town. Pahahaha

BM

Meh I don't know how long you two have been friends or whatever, I concede that point.

[Shotty to the Body]

If BM really fakeclaimed for us to find scum by leaving him out, he'd have shut up and taken a guard kill on him for the team. That claim was the only thing that made me unvote BM in the first place. Since then, BM lurked again and did nothing to find scum.

I was fine with that, until someone raised the possibility of me being protected, which means i wouldnt die.

You still havent taken up my offer to explain your vote on me.

I could see Veerus as being scum, getting bussed.

BM

Why the hell would tubby-veerus team bus when they could just kill you for the easy lynch? Deflect more. Also Scientist protection won't save you from vig kill, it blocks infections, stop misrepresenting the role to your advantage.

you arent paying attention, are ya?

I didnt mention Tubby there at all. I was referring to any of the people attacking me, when they state they'd rather attack Veerus. So, your point is null, because the people i am referring to, ARE taking the easy road.

Someone definitely said the Scientist protects. If thats wrong, fair. But that's what i thought. If you read back, you'll probably see why.

BM

Sorry I don't really follow your point about Veerus, tubby was the only one voting him so that's what I thought you meant.

Also if you can point me to whoever said that and where I'll let the Sci thing drop, otherwise it appears to me you've been mistaken/misrepresenting the role.

[Shotty to the Body]

Did you read my post charter? Seriously you've been fixating hardcore, could you at least tell me what you think?

TL;DR

I don't really agree with your summary, I think BM is scummy for other reasons, and I'm wary that you're jumping on this because it will save yourself.

Of course I don't want to be lynched, I don't think that's a scum-tell.

In all seriousness though, it isn't a deflection or jumping on someone elses train. I've been pushing BM-Mokina/The Replacement. The idea Malthusis failed to infect was something I considered given the current deal with BM and no one had mentioned it so food for thought.

[Shotty to the Body]

Is that really relevant? No matter which we lynch the other is going to get messed up by power roles.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'd really appreciate a chance to respond before you speed-lynch me, so if you could hold off taking me past L-2 I would appreciate it. I don't have much time right now, I just moved into school so you'll have to bear with me. One thing I'd like to point out is animorph is essentially agreeing with everyone else and didn't post anything in his suspect list I found particularly original.

[Shotty to the Body]

Shotty:

veerus:

Honestly, I think he's town, but I wish he said more, and did more than just hiding behind charter.

I didn't say he was that it was scummy, I said I wish he actually said something of relevance. Because All of D2, he said (for the most part) "I was going to say that charter, but you beat me to it".

Erm where did I claim that you said Veerus was scum?

[Shotty to the Body]

Lol

What were the main points against Dice Clay?

Also, what are the chances that nothing happened last night due to vaccination/block, as opposed to the infected not desiring to send in an action?

No action sent in in my opinion. The facade of me being vaccinated to prevent suicide is one of the tactics going to be used to sway a lynch on me.

[Shotty to the Body]

Shotty, who is your buddy?

You would be since we're both town. I hope you get rid of your tunnel vision before you mislynch again.

[Shotty to the Body]

Kelly Chen D2 PBPA

407: Defends KKN, claims scum wouldn't try to indirectly defend FA (isn't that what charter says I did? Oh well, facts, psssh.) Votes the Replacement, FoS BM and Tajo.
410: Kise replaced Paper.
435: Says Replacement is like Mokina, glosses over a BM post about Malthusis 'respecting' her, one criteria of his infected-hunting.
444: Speculates on BM's change of opinion about Mokina, says that the recruitment of The Replacement would be odd.
467: Claims she was the obvious choice for scientist protection, WIFOM about protection targets.

sidebar

KKN post 472: Returns the favor and defends Chen.
473: Says Veerus is scummy. "Shotty asks Rally why Kise. Shotty's voting veerus... if anything seems like seeking a reason to move to Kise... on the other hand I'm pretty sure we didn't have four scum so nevermind." I like how when Chen was re-reading this right after the fact I wasn't scummy but then when she goes back later in the day, when I'm in a more vulnerable position, there's suddenly scum-tells all over.
483: Asks charter how my play yesterday could indicate infection, continues to push Veerus as scum.
485: Rereads charter and RV, doesn't say anything about RV but claims charter could be original scum.
488: Back and forth with BM. Refuses to give opinion on RV.
489: Back and forth with BM.

sidebar

charter's 490: "but his (Shotty's) stuff from yesterday wasn't very scummy."
500: Back and forth with BM.
501: Back and forth with BM. (Essentially none of this back and forth is scum-hunting, in fact it's closer to strategy since all they do is debate number of scum and how they're scum-hunting rather then actually doing it, not to mention the veiled insults.)
509: Back and forth with BM. Defending RV.
532: Defends RV. Unvotes.
549: Lists Replacement, veerus, and charter as original scum.
559: Admits there are points that veerus might not be any kind of scum, why has she been pushing him this entire time then?
560: Points out charter's response to his fucked up reasoning in an earlier posts. Votes charter.
561: Doesn't understand why no one thought Mokina was scummy D1.
566: Totally changes suspicions out of the blue with no posted reasons. Votes Shotty.
570: Clears KKN, in this post now charter "isn't even that scummy" according to Chen.
574: Claims to only be after original scum, says I was scummier on D1 then now, even though earlier when she was doing bandwagon reviews etc I wasn't scummy.
575: Can't explain why she's clearing KKN.
577: Concedes veerus being scum, really? You've been on him all day and like 3 posts from charter and you give up on that so easily? After 3 posts by another person you thought could be scum? Says Rally is prob town.
584: Says Replacement vote is best but will be doing a case on me. Says BM is a poor recruitment choice and is now defending Veerus against scum accusations after she's been on him the whole day, brilliant.
585: Misunderstood something RV said.
586: Mod would make move for scum instead of having no night-action.
587: PBPA of me, highly polarized it draws conclusions without even presenting the facts first.
588: Adds something she forgot about post 22.
592: Posts some more reasons, they don't really make sense however. She points out that I voted for FA instead of switching to Kise? Okay, so I hammered scum instead of going for the NL?
593: Claims I would join a veerus wagon even though she's the one pushing him as scum the whole day and I said I thought he was town? Makes perfect sense. Beautifully skims over all my defenses saying she doesn't care, makes sense why would we care about what people have to say, and interprets (and misinterprets) everything as scummy.
617: Asks me about my KKN thoughts.
623: Points tubby towards 602.
639: Asks tubby a question.
642: Misses poptajo.
646: Anti-prod?
676: Non-committal on BM.
717: Asks BM why he was setting himself up to claim, but still doesn't commit even though she's implying he had a reason to claim.
727: Says she can see BMscum doing what he did, but still doesn't say if she thinks he is scum.

So let's see. So we see KC strategizing with BM. KC has defended BM, RV, KKN, and Veerus at different points in the day. KC has had suspicions ranging from veerus to charter to the Replacement to tajo and to me. She goes through all of these and finally settles on me when she gets some support behind her. Her main suspicion veerus that she pushed throughout the day she gave up after 3 posts by charter who she also suspected at the time. Confirmed town BM had her as a top suspect and this is the person were trusting to lead a lynch? I'd ask anyone using her PBPA as evidence to re-read my D1 without presuming scum and tell me how scummy that actually was.

[Shotty to the Body]

Goes without saying

vote KC

[Shotty to the Body]

Claim: Scientist

[Shotty to the Body]

My point is right now I'd hope you take me off L-1 before scum hammer-suicide with nothing to stop them.

[Shotty to the Body]

I wasn't going to out all my targets since I can't save them again, but since charter is clearly being incredibly thick-headed or scummy I guess I'll have to.

N1 I vaccinated charter, I figured scum wouldn't try to touch tajo and charter was a good second choice. Half the reason I'm being attacked was for agreeing with charter a lot yesterday and that was because I was relatively sure he was clean at that point, because I thought he was pro-town on D1 and I protected him that night, now not so much.

N2 I vaccinated no one, I expected the no-kill because if the scum wanted to push this wagon through they couldn't kill if they wanted to use the excuse that I was vaccinated and that's why I didn't suicide as a lynchpin.

[Shotty to the Body]

Well RV is town, even if he's wrong.

[Shotty to the Body]

After BM flipped town it was clear charter and KC would come right back to me and it would be an easy wagon to fall onto. Notice how animorph gets on right away without so much as a reason. I thought KC would be, but I need to go back over my D1 charter reads, I was pretty sure he was town at the end of the first day, but if he is he's being incredibly unhelpful right now. Also I'm suspicious of animporph, he completely ignored my claim even though I'm protection role at L-1 and then he vanishes when I ask him to do something.

[Shotty to the Body]

No infect last night so I'm still pretty sure veerus is clean, Kise is the only other one that hasn't posted yet and I don't think he is scum so I would guess both scum are on my wagon already.

[Shotty to the Body]

Shotty's Day 2 play strikes me as scummy. Mostly, as I did point out, because he had a serious downfall in his scum finding attempt. After being called out (not only by me), Shotty raised his activity, but I see a inconsistent play on Day itself. Especially with the huge post by post on BM. Shotty has done analysis while giving post numbers, but not like that with BM, but within a summary. After BM now flipped town, that looks very bad to me.

Now, he's after Kelly Chen - but what about Mokina/Replacement/animorph? He only mentioned (them) now, but shouldn't he been after (them) from the beginning, or at least mention them instead doing again a huge post by post (on Kelly Chen)? This is inconsistent.

Even more, Shotty has been trying to push a Mokina/Replacement lynch yesterday, and I don't see why he would have expected a no night action when Mokina/Replafcement/animorph was under such pressure yesterday. This makes no sense and has been pulled out of his sleeve with little time.

Finally, Shotty claims to have "vaccinated" charter. Why would he do that considering this (adressed to BM in #714):

That's what you said. I felt that Malthusis would've come under suspicion on D2, much as happened to you, had he not suicided that night. He wasn't on the scum wagon and I think even if you were in a weaker position, which is sketchy, you would've asked him to bite the shit sandwich and continued on.

If that would be true, Scientist Shotty would have targeted Malthusis Night 1.

The only one under pressure at the end of D2 was me. If you honestly believe animorph was under pressure why has no one even questioned him.

Makes sense, I looked into the future with my magic powers and read post 714 when I made my N1 vaccinate choice.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm confident about Shottyscum because:
a. for original scum we don't have that many choices. I think it's just him or animorperv.
b. he's scum. (Pretty damning.)


Also,

575: Can't explain why she's clearing KKN.

Disagree

I did explain it. I think Kid is original town basically on the same evidence that pop thinks he could be original scum.

And even if N1 scum saw things my way, they would still have to be aware of how pop interpreted it, so they could only recruit Kid if they weren't paying attention.

Brilliant, just brilliant posting here. I never even claimed KKN to be scum, just pointed out that you defend him. Nice of you to make that assumption though.

[Shotty to the Body]

I wasn't going to out all my targets since I can't save them again, but since charter is clearly being incredibly thick-headed or scummy I guess I'll have to.

N1 I vaccinated charter, I figured scum wouldn't try to touch tajo and charter was a good second choice. Half the reason I'm being attacked was for agreeing with charter a lot yesterday and that was because I was relatively sure he was clean at that point, because I thought he was pro-town on D1 and I protected him that night, now not so much.

N2 I vaccinated no one, I expected the no-kill because if the scum wanted to push this wagon through they couldn't kill if they wanted to use the excuse that I was vaccinated and that's why I didn't suicide as a lynchpin.

This is the biggest load of crap ever! You seriously vaccinated me night one? Yeah right! I was a HUGE candidate for scum with my repeated defending of FA and trying to get Kise lynched. Night two you didn't protect at all? That's the ABSOLUTE BIGGEST pile of BS ever. Even randomly protecting is a great idea because if scum suicide, you have a chance of A) stopping them, and B) saving the person they were going to infect.

Are you confident on this wagon?

100%. Zero doubt in my mind.

Stop. Hammer Time!

So if I was going to fake-claim something I would pick actions that would come under attack? Good thinking, guess the truth can be a little shocking, especially when I was right about the no kill. When you flip me I hope you realize you're a fool, unless you're scum then well-played you got everyone fooled (except tajo).

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm going to do a quick

unvote

. I want to hear who he "vaccinated" before we get a hammer.

Lol yeah right, scumbag.

Unvote, Vote Animorph

Too bad charter's target fixation has blinded him off of his D2 suspicions. This guy is scum, too bad he will suicide once I'm dead.

[Shotty to the Body]

Actually, Shotty, why did you lie about who you protected? Did you think you were the only scientist or what? (I thought I was the only one)

I would have claimed what you actually did, claiming what you claimed just nailed your coffin shut.

I had a very different idea of the set-up then there actually was and I did believe I was the only scientist. I figured my targets weren't going to save me, I was in a tough spot because of my D2 play so I shuffled my targets in case I survived. The vaccination on you N1 gave me a more plausible reason to agree with you on D2, so I was covering for my own mistakes I suppose. I assumed the scum decided not to infect because I didn't really expect KC to suicide if she were scum and I didn't want to tell her that I'd used my shot on her already. RV picked up on my gamble apparently which was a damn good thing. I wasn't really happy with my play this game, but it seemed to work out in the end.

[Shotty to the Body]

What was the goal with trying to vaccinate me KC? Clear me by letting everyone know scum was on my case? 3 Scientists was definitely unexpected, I thought there would be two max but I wasn't really counting on that. The way the role worked I didn't expect more then 2 since your vacc's could clash. I assumed we had a guard and just got unlucky on N1, but the set-up turned out to be quite interesting.

[Shotty to the Body]

Also, I think it's pretty odd how none of the scientists protected themselves.

At least for me I felt that I was in a balanced point where I wasn't town enough to infect on N1 but I wasn't really suspect either so I didn't think I needed to vaccinate myself, I was trying to save it to wifom scum with in a claim situation. It seemed like we were all operating under the assumption of solo scientist, I know I did until I thought I was going to die I took a gamble and didn't share my true targets. Solo scientist didn't really benefit as much from vaccinating themselves since it has a dual-effect if it goes to someone else so that pretty much cinched it for me.

[Shotty to the Body]

Sorry for the spam. >.<

Overall I really liked the mechanics and it all stitched together rather well, I guess I agree with stacking the town so everyone wouldn't try to abandon ship but I think the scum were definitely short-handed here and the D1 lynch almost sealed it for us with 3 scientists in the mix.

If I were going to improve upon the game I agree with charter, make it smaller, and with KC, drop most of the PRs. This is just off the cuff but I would do something like 8 people, 2 scum, a subject with his immunity and one without, and a lone PR on top. Grab some players that aren't going to try and get infected as town and it would be a tough game, but lots of fun.

[Shotty to the Body]

What I'm also interested in are the reasons for BM's fakeclaim and back-off. Obviously, the discussion after BM claimed helped in finding scum, and I wonder who charter and Shotty would have vaccinated if BM hadn't admitted he was fakeclaiming (I already had on Night 1).

I was going to vaccinate BM, was planning that the whole day until he told us he was fake-claiming. I think he backed off the claim when he realized he was going to get vaccinated since he didn't want that.

[Shotty to the Body]

Regarding Shotty recruit attempt: I was trying to balance who I thought could most use the "free day," with who was unlikely to blow it somehow.

Basically I was torn on whether Shotty was a better lynch or a better recruit.

(It was a "free day" not just because I don't believe a player would be lynched on the weak theory of just now being recruited, but because I thought ani was done for.)

Would've been tough, but I think I could've wriggled out of it with you as confirmed scum.

[Shotty to the Body]

Hard to guess I lied about my vacc and another sci would pick up on it though.

[Shotty to the Body]

Hindsight is 20/20.