Mini 810: Infection! Mini - Game over!

[Rally Vincent]

/confirm.

[Rally Vincent]

Vote: Mokina

. You broke my heart by not starting WushuTwo.

[Rally Vincent]

As already has been pointed out, claiming scientist (wether real or fake) will either lead to being infected and/or killed by the guard (if there is). Claiming guard won't be effective either The only scenario where I'd see benefit would be two players claiming guard with one scientist, as one could be lynched and the other one vaccinated with the task to kill - but since we don't know if/how many power roles there are, I agree on the non-claim policy.

[Rally Vincent]

I think a scientist should aim to always vaccinate someone else. Vaccinating himself will protect only him, while vaccinating someone else prevents that player being infected and him infecting someone else. Claiming scientist will practically force that player to vaccinate himself, and if I got you right that you think that scum rather would not target the scientist, a claim wouldn't serve much - if scum wouldn't target the scientist, the others go unprotected anyways, and the scientist would be dead meat the following night.

In addition, a guard kill would still be likely.

[Rally Vincent]

Keep in mind that under the above plan, if a scientist gets infected, the rest of the town will carry on doing nothing

This.

And, we already agreed that there is no guarantee that this game has guard and scientist. While with just a guard one kill at night would be assured as long as the guard is not infected, with just a scientist the vaccinations could be at the wrong place at the wrong night... no lynch is not what this game needs.

Reading the claim arguments, not really wanting to muck it up. As I didn't have anything to say in regards to claims, I stayed quiet. I'm trying to understand the mechanics of this game and how it'll effect hunting.

You must at least have an opinion. Please say something. And why is BM called on for lurking, but not Kid?

unvote

[Rally Vincent]

What are we to discuss then with NL-votes? I mean, besides what we did until now? And the discussion about claiming/counterclaiming would be a moot point, since with NL there'd be no reason to think about claiming at all.

All those who support a NL: What kind of discussion do you expect will take place?

[Rally Vincent]

I guess I agree that NL kills off a lot of the potential discussion, but I still believe it's a decent back-up plan if there's a deadline.

Can someone tell me what the case on BM is? Besides lurking (something that could be said of many here).

How is a NL a "decent" back-up plan? Why would it be better then just lynching the scummiest player and thus having information by that? And again, on which other issues will we discuss if not on votes? Why don't you start a discussion to back up the decency of your back-up plan?

vote: veerus

until you back yourself up somehow. BM has enough votes on him for now.

[Rally Vincent]

Not lynching scummy players in this game is a mistake. If we let someone who acts scummy slide they'll just kill themselves that night and we lose our chance at taking down a scum.

Hmm.. good point. This is the first thing I've seen against the idea that makes sense.

I disagree that this should is the

first

argument against a NL. If a player is acting scummy, he'll get vaccinated or killed and thus not be able to pass the infection. The original task is to stir up scum to slip, which is why we need a lynch with all the consequences of voting.

[Rally Vincent]

PRO NL:
NLing today would give the PRs the only pro-town chance to preform their actions without the town having to worry about them being infected. If we lynch today, we might kill a PR thus possibly killing off the only Scientist/Guard that we have.

Did you rate this as an argument you think is pro NL, or just what somebody said as it was a pro of a NL?

Tajo, Malthius and Kelly Chen didn't post a long time (charter at least has a reason).

Mod

, what about the prods?

[Rally Vincent]

I guess I agree that NL kills off a lot of the potential discussion, but I still believe it's a decent back-up plan if there's a deadline.

Can someone tell me what the case on BM is? Besides lurking (something that could be said of many here).

How is a NL a "decent" back-up plan? Why would it be better then just lynching the scummiest player and thus having information by that? And again, on which other issues will we discuss if not on votes? Why don't you start a discussion to back up the decency of your back-up plan?

vote: veerus

until you back yourself up somehow. BM has enough votes on him for now.

Why did you vote veerus on this post and not in the post where he first proposes his idea? Do you think that the motivation behind his plan is scummy?

There were two people voting for a NL: veerus and BM. I asked them in #98 what kind of discussion the expected to happen with vouching for a NL. veerus was the first to wiggle-waggle around this, and this was enough for me to vote him then. He explicitely said that discussion could still occur, but neither did he say what kind of discussion, nor did he start or take part in a discussion the following time. I don't know why most of you let this NL proposal slip by so easily. I don't believe in "Oh, that is so obvious, no scum would ever try to pull that". Proposing a NL is not scummy per se, but it is when you don't try to back it up. There is a difference if one really thinks it is beneficial for the town and fighting for it with valid arguments and dropping it "unless we're going to push against a deadline and are no closer to lynching (like now)"

Now please tell me what you think of this NL idea.

[Rally Vincent]

Upon re-reading the infected role, do the scum

have

to infect someone at night? How do the previous theories hold up if the scum just let the town lynch each other without bothering to infect anyone?

I think it makes more sense to vote no-lynch and let the security guard & scientist roles shoot it out with the scum at night.

This way we don't risk accidentally lynching those roles and we don't force them to claim and out themselves either.

When you consider the fact that there are test subjects in the mix who may or may not be infected, I must say I like our chances.

unvote; vote: no lynch

There you go, the motivation at bold.

At that point, we already we were agreeing that nobody should claim, so the part about not forcing power roles to claim is invalid. In addition, veerus didn't - up to yet - tell us which kind of discussion should have taken place without voting, he didn't start any kind of other discussion, nor taken part in the following. Neither did he unvote his NL nor vote for someone else. He proposed a disadvantagous plan and did nothing to find scum - yet nobody seems to care about that.

[Rally Vincent]

Really, why isnt fallen angel not even near to be lynched yet?

I want everyones opinions on this guy.

Kaythxbay.

Hah, after reading fallen angel's posts, I now see why you listed me as possible scum. FA and I do sound very much alike in what we have said - just that I went ahead, and he followed up. I'd sure like to hear why that makes me scummy in your opinion. Or if it isn't that, then what else?

My opinion on FA: He said the right things (obviously, as I have offered the same point of view). I also agree that a fakeclaim isn't good - for a different reason, though. If we'd agree on fakeclaiming, we'd have all the problems for town that made us all (?) agree that we would not claim in the first place. I'll give you that this

PP, there are so many flaws in that plan it isn't even funny. You
1) Want all basic townies dead, which would out the power roles and most likely get them infected before they can be killed.
2) You might be able to, but if your plan fails we lose the game. Not worth the risk.
3) How are the townies supposed to commit suicide? Get mod-killed? We get one lynch a day, and I'm not wasting mine because you want to out the PRs and make a scum win more likely.

Unvote, Vote PaperPenguin

. That is probably the most anti-town statement I have ever heard.

BM- Post 129 was a misunderstanding, I thought LoS was Lynch on Sight as suggested. The post 127 was mainly to get his reaction. Your stance on Mokina doesn't entirely convince me, but I admit it was a fairly weak statement. It was mostly due, again, to the misunderstanding of what LoS meant.

looks not so good. I saw PP slightly more likely to be town. Plus, FA is lurking. On the other hand, so are others. I see him as possible scum, but sure enough to change my vote.

[Rally Vincent]

I have said that discussion can occur as normal and we can lynch the scummiest player if one presents himself. Currently, there is no real suspect, and I still maintain that this is one case where a deadline NL is better than a random deadline lynch.

A lot of things can occur. Too bad you don't intend to start or least take part any of these - with the exception of doing absolutely nothing.

[Rally Vincent]

Dear town:

The scum are Rally Vincent [...]

Love and XOXO
Your BFF, Tajo.

Based on... what? Besides you declaring active lurking veerus as town.

[Rally Vincent]

This is like the pot calling the kettle black. Last I checked you haven't exactly been a stellar example of player participation either.

I agree with tajo on this one. FA's vote on PP is opportunistic and a feeble attempt at making a mountain out of a mole hill and will vote him if we get closer to the deadline.

However..

unvote; vote: rally vincent

To elaborate on my comment above, RV is voting me for suggesting an idea and not contributing new things to the discussion. Which is odd considering he himself has barely contributed to the discussion and over half of his posts deal with my NL idea and nothing else. For someone who is so concerned with starting a discussion, he sure has shunned away from it himself. Looks like a classic example of a scum who is trying to post something safe (like attack a weak theory) without posting any active content himself.

You sharply recognised the reason why I vote you, and all you have to say is: "HAY GUYS, he's doin' it, too!" But, accusing me of "barely contributing"

1 - doesn't change the fact you did absolutely nothing to find scum
2 - isn't true, since I dealt on a regular basis with the issues that were brought up.

The quoted posts are the first thing from you to "find" scum since this game started, and you're voting the guy voting you for something you admitted to be true.

I see no town motivation behind PP's proposal. It is definitely more anti-town, especially in this game. Scum could potentially win the game if that happened, which is unlikely but as you pointed out, it seemed that PP was inexperienced. Scum might infect a doctor and the guard might kill a townie. Things would not look good for the town. I DO see scum motivation behind that plan.

I can see town motivation in PP's plan. If scum and PR end up even in numbers, there'd be a chance for town to win. Say two scum with two town, one scum gets killed by the guard and the other gets vaccinated or hits a vaccinated player. It's just that this plan doesn't work with more scum then PR, and has a big chance to fail even if numbers are even. But it's not driven by scummy intentions per se.

--

Tajo

- are you going to answer my question?

[Rally Vincent]

Tajo

- are you going to answer my question?

Rally, I think you are scum for your relation with fallen angel, which I think is very obvscum. It seems that you and fallen are growing suspicions together. You even admitted that some of your reasoning are very similar.

I also dislike your push of the veerus situation. Do you still think he is prob scum?

What do you think of the others?

Why don't you like that I want someone I think is scum to be lynched? What has veerus done that would change my mind? Maybe you missed it, as you always reduce me on voting veerus for a "plan scum would not come up with" so he's town. I voted veerus not for his NL plan only, but for his intention to not have day 1 discussion. Again, he vouched NL, which I take as a discussion killer. veerus said discussion could still occur, but he did his best to not be involved in any. I only see scum wanting to have no discussion on Day 1 when we have the starting positions. Tajo, take the NL aside and tell me if veerus is town with what he has actually done in this game. Did he hunt scum by your standards?

[Rally Vincent]

No.

I think its pretty clear how I play this game. Not all townies in this game are excellent scumhunters or excellent debaters. But there is something that cant be faked. Yes (its starting to get repetitive) the motivation to do things.

Veerus and paperpeguin both proposed things that at first glance look scummy but as you deeply analyse them, they become just bad ideas.

Ill give you something to analyse. Besides your veerus hate, what else have you actually done in this game?

And that's where I disagree with you. I may be repeating myself as much as you do, but I fail to see any town motivation in veerus' plan. Now, let's take a look why you see a town motivation:

Upon re-reading the infected role, do the scum

have

to infect someone at night? How do the previous theories hold up if the scum just let the town lynch each other without bothering to infect anyone?

I think it makes more sense to vote no-lynch and let the security guard & scientist roles shoot it out with the scum at night.

This way we don't risk accidentally lynching those roles and we don't force them to claim and out themselves either.

When you consider the fact that there are test subjects in the mix who may or may not be infected, I must say I like our chances.

unvote; vote: no lynch

There you go, the motivation at bold.

The bolded part is more or less something I would expect town not to say in a game like that. Which mafia game does not bear the chance of "accidently" lynching a Power Role? Day 1 is in no matter different then any other Mafia Game - in fact, it's the only Day that gives us the oppurtunity of collecting information with the original alignments. And while NL won't "force a PR to claim", it is perfect for scum as they won't be in need to avoid slipping. This whole plan favors scum so much more then it would be beneficial for town. You get it as town-motivated - fine, but I don't. And I will push a lynch on someone who is sending scum vibes.

I already said that it's something different with PP's plan, and I understand your approach. Still, I am not voting veerus for his plan alone as you assume, but also for his contradictive behavior, which is exactly what I think you are ignoring. I'm not an excellent scumhunter nor debater myself, as you call it, but at least I tried.

As for what else I've done: I contributed to the game mechanics discussion, commented on FA vs PP. And I thought about how much truth is in what PP said here:

I agree, where is the rest of the town? =P

Trying as hard as possible not to get lynched. This game is strange in that people want to be NKed.

I'm afraid the truth isn't that far away. I admit I have difficulties reading the others. We're all either circling around the same "You're scum" - "NO U" - not just us two, but the others as well. I think I'll have better insight when I see who gets lynched and who'll die at night.

But this is what I've got so far:

FA: Already commented on him. Possible scum.

Mokina: still neutral, but: With the votes spread evenly, this gives a great oppurtunity to get things going with voting the players she finds scummy. Why?

Malthusis: Likely scum. I didn't realize that he didn't do much either. He's totally flying under the radar. Almost no content, just a few tiny posts about FA. But, not voting, not even FA. I could go with a malthusis lynch if veerus gets no majority.

BM: I did get some town vibes from him in the early stage, but I don't like his abscence. Will have better insight after he posted.

Kise: Considering FA possible scum with PP more likely town, Kise is town.

charter: Neutral. I think he's on the wrong track with Kise, but it looks genuine. What I don't like about charter are his comments about veerus (obviously).

Kelly Chen: Can't read her that good, but I like her attention on malthusis. IIRC, she's the only one (or did anyone else point him out?). So I'd say rather town.

Tajo: I'd see him rather leaning town, but: if veerus somehow turns to be town, and PP/Kise too, he'd have a pretty nice position as scum defending those two.

Shotty: Neutral, with rather town. Of course I like his vote on veerus, but I got some mixed vibes from him, especially over why he unvoted BM.

KKN: neutral. I don't agree with what he said about PP's plan; I don't agree with "town lists hurt town". But I can see why he questions Tajo; I think both are either misunderstanding each other. Tajo makes a good point with this, though:

Do I think PP is scum? He wasn't in the game long enough for me to say

Tell me then why fallen angel thought it deserved a vote.

[Rally Vincent]

Rally, your 320 is a much better post. It really helped me understanding where you are.

Tajo: I'd see him rather leaning town, but: if veerus somehow turns to be town, and PP/Kise too, he'd have a pretty nice position as scum defending those two.

I dont understand this. Can you rephrase?

Scum knows who is town (obv). So all I said was

if

you were scum and knew that PP and veerus were town, you'd have gained a good position. It's just a possibility I thought about.

Mokina, why aren't you voting someone? Malthusis (as soon as you're back), why aren't you voting someone?

BM needs to post.

Mod

, with charter and FA V/LA until Tuesday resp. without date, can we get a 48 hour deadline extension?

[Rally Vincent]

Malthusis, any more suspects?

[Rally Vincent]

When and which timezone on Tuesday, July 21st will the deadline end?

[Rally Vincent]

I think a Mokina replacement should warrant a deadline extension.

I'd really rather lynch veerus, but apparently there won't be a majority on him.

unvote vote: Fallen Angel

[Rally Vincent]

Well the question becomes how to proceed from here, if there were three scum to start we have another to hunt and we can look at yesterdays actions.

If there were three scum , we'll probably have atill have two, not one.

I want to hear something from BM. He said he would post , and then lurked hardcore - twice, at end of day.

[Rally Vincent]

Well the question becomes how to proceed from here, if there were three scum to start we have another to hunt and we can look at yesterdays actions.

If there were three scum , we'll probably

still

have two, not one.

EBWOP

[Rally Vincent]

I was pretty certain that we had 2 scum at the outset tbh. Starting with 3 seems remarkably anti-town given the mechanic. To that end, i'm going to assume that everyone still alive was town yesterday. Effectively the game starts again, but this time, we only have 1 scumbag in play.

This will of course, become kinda WIFOMy once i've said it, but i think it's fairly obvious from the fact that Malthusis chose to suicide, that he felt he wasnt in the strongest position, from not being on the scum wagon and all.
It seems logical then, that he would have opted to infect the player he felt was in the strongest position-probably somebody who was very against his buddy. So, for today, i think we're looking at the main people pushing the Fallen Angel lynch. Certainly, if we had 2 scum to begin with, i dont see a scenario in which the final scumbag would be someone off-wagon.

If we started with 3 scum, and had 2 left last night, we can still probably rule out anyone who can be considered a weaker player than Malthusis. I'd say that includes Mokina, and possibly Kise too. But i think we probs only have 1 left now. And i'm leaning towards a more experienced player too.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. I'll try and get a reread in now to ascertain who scum would be likely to pick.

BM

I don't like this post at all. BM lurked away during the end of Day 1, even when we had a three way split vote. Now, he is trying to direct our attention away from Day 1 by declaring everyone still alive to be town yesterday. Why? Nobody else suspicious? Who were your suspects, and why/why not?

Then, BM is certain we started with only 2 scum. I don't agree with that. Taking test subjects into account, three scum are not that far fetched. But, by declaring only one scum is still there (the one who was infected by malthusis), BM avoids having to name a third suspect. We didn't hear from BM anything about that since his Mokina case.

Until BM says something about what he should have done on Day 1:

vote: Battle Mage

I did not forget about veerus, though. You're still suspicious to me.

[Rally Vincent]

BM lurked away during the end of Day 1, even when we had a three way split vote.

Haha i didnt check the thread towards the end of the day from what i recall, which is why i didnt notice the situation until we had gone tonight. Obviously you guys did a good job in my absence. Regardless, i am not a suspect based on my Day 1 play, because i think 3 scum is ridiculously unbalanced.

You say you can't be a suspect based on your Day 1 play because you don't think there might be three scum. That's a confusing argument. If you say that there are only two scum, then you aren't not suspicioud

due to your play

, but only because there couldn't be another scum. That's something different.

I say your Day 1 play is in fact pretty scummy. You lurked at and of day while you promised to post after being prodded - twice. If you say that there probably can't be more then two sum - well, I disagree.

I was pretty certain that we had 2 scum at the outset tbh. Starting with 3 seems remarkably anti-town given the mechanic. To that end, i'm going to assume that everyone still alive was town yesterday. Effectively the game starts again, but this time, we only have 1 scumbag in play.

Again, I'd like to point to test subjects, which makes three scum not out of reach.

Haha i didnt check the thread towards the end of the day from what i recall, which is why i didnt notice the situation until we had gone tonight. Obviously you guys did a good job in my absence. Regardless, i am not a suspect based on my Day 1 play, because i think 3 scum is ridiculously unbalanced. I'm suspicious of anyone who pushes the 3 scum theory, because it is almost certainly wrong, and generally, scum want to try and challenge assumptions in order to mislead the town as far as possible. That's not to say you are necessarily scum. But your stance is certainly noteworthy.

I am not really pushing a three scum theory, but I certainly won't throw it aside with a wink and a smile. I see a possibility there, and for that it is worth to still have a look at Day 1, the only phase of the game where the alignments didn't have undergone changes.

In reality, townies will not base their suspicions today on what happened yesterday, and the town's direction is yet to be determined. And if i was scum, i'd absolutely HATE that. Especially because we (well, mainly you guys haha) tried the scumtell route yesterday, and it was successful. If i was Rally Vincent-scum, i'd expect there to be a couple nice mislynches out there, and possibly wouldnt be too worried about drawing myself early, because i could always suicide at night.

If you are following the 3 scum theory, you can take as red that i am not that 3rd scumbag. If i was, i'd have gladly taken the bullet last night over Malthusis, given how useless i was on Day 1. And you can see already that im playing alot differently to Day 1 in terms of activity (due to me having a bit more time on my hands, and feeling like the game has a restart so i dont have lots to catch up on).

In other words, the only case you have on me, is that i was infected last night. Hence my meta change. But, do you really believe scum would infect me after Day 1? *shrug* It's possible i guess. But not particularly likely.

No, I am not saying that you were infected during night, I am saying that - if there were three scum to begin with - you might be one from your original role - based on your Day 1 play. Even with the game mechanics, Day 1 was just a regular Day one like in any other daystart mafia game. And, regarding your "scum can always suicide" argument - to suicide, you have to survive the day.

Btw, the bit in italics is an unnecessary Appeal to Authority. Feel free to explain why you have to direct your concerns to the rest of the players, rather than at me. Is it because you dont actually want me to respond, you simply want a wagon to ensue?

Please excuse, but why would I adress you if you don't even show up for the end of a day when with the votes spread like it was short before end of deadline yesterday? If a wagon seems to be the better way to get you to say something, then I will take that route.

But okay, I will ask you directly then: considering scum can be lynched, killed by a guard, killed by infecting an immune test subject, die either getting vaccinated themself or by hitting a vaccinated target - can you tell me why three scum were so unfair that you rule it out. I'm not saying there

must

be three scum, but there might be. Who were your two main suspects yesterday? Why? Also, please: assume that there were three scum - who would have been your third suspect? Why?

I have to agree with The Replacement that speculating about vaccinations probably isn't going to get us there, it's wheels with wheels trying to guess a vaccination and then counter-guess the scums infection pick, makes my head hurt just thinking about it and isn't very helpful. Are you still suspicious of Veerus over his NL plan Rally?

It was not the NL plan alone. Right now, BM has caught my interest. veerus is still on my list as the possible third scum. He is welcome to change my mind by his actions.

[Rally Vincent]

Reading your first paragraph again, i notice that your real argument here is that, despite me probably not being scum yesterday, you still want to string me up for my scummy play.

Where do you get that I think you were probably

not

being scum yesterday? If you are referring to my post #320, that was one week before deadline, and I waited for your announced posts that didn't come. I told today that you're possible scum to me. And yes, I base it on your Day 1 play, not on Day 2 posts.

I disagree. In a standard cult game, with power roles, 2 is generally enough in a game of say, 30 players. We only have 12 here, and whilst the mechanic isnt an additional recruiting as such, it does mean that it ought to be very hard to win, because it simply isnt the game we're used to. Hence, we almost certainly started with 2 here.

Are you referring to a cult game with cult in addition to or without scum?

Lol, thats just plain dumb, bro.
Lets look at the facts:

We KNOW that there is 1 scumbag today, who was protown yesterday.
There MAY POSSIBLY be another scumbag who was scum yesterday.

So who should be spend our efforts trying to nail? The baddie we KNOW exists, or the baddie that might not even be here.

We should do both. Just because you say there were only two scum doesn't mean there was. The only way to find the new scum is the same way we'd find scum on Day 1. It doesn't hurt to keep an eye to a possible third scum, who - if there was a third scum - still is. Thus, Day 1 scumtells can be helpful.

You obviously didnt read my post. So i'll say it again. There is no logic that would have me as scum on Day 1. Because if i had been, i'd have suicided last night and infected someone, having not really played the game proficiently upto this point.

Why would you have suicided if you do not accept your Day 1 play being called scummy? What would be the reason for you to suicide over Malthusis, who had attention on him already?

And i's not really an argument, because only one scum can suicide at night. If Malthusis hadn't suicided, but someone else, he probably would be saying something like that.

I'd already spoken quite quantitatively before you made your post. Not buying it. Why did you REALLY not speak to me directly?

Furthermore, why are you so upset about what happened yesterday? You nailed scum, didnt ya? So why was me not being there such a big deal for you?

I am upset because you lurked at a decisive moment despite being prodded twice. There's no opinion of you about the players before the lynch to find possible contradictive behavior.

And maybe I didn't word it the right way, so I'll repeat: I find you scummy for not saying anything when there was a definate need for it.

I do find it rather amusing that your case on me is my Day 1 play, but you didnt feel like pushing this until now. xD
Wonder why that could be!

Have a look at how the votes were split the day before end of deadline, then think again.

[Rally Vincent]

*shrug* maybe it IS better you appeal to the town, because there isnt alot i can say to this, other than "you're wrong", without resorting to ad hom. In fairness, i've explained quite clearly why i cannot have been scum yesterday, because if i was, i'd have suicided at night, over the guy who did. Call it WIFOM if you like, but it's something that anyone with half a brain (or more) would tell you.

Me not being someone with half a brain (or more); I tell you that I do not see why you would be the one suiciding over Malthusis - I mean, besides you saying you would.

Tell me, if i was scum yesterday, how do you explain my change in play today? Why would i want to draw myself out into the open, when i'm painfully aware of how easy it is to manipulate a wagon on me?

You were active at start of Day 1; you are active at start of Day 2. To have an actual change in playing style, you'd have to keep active until end of day.

If you wanna make a case that Malthusis was under more heat than me, go for it.

Malthusis was mentioned on Day 1 by Kelly Chen and me ( I believe, someone else also did, but I am not sure about this).

You still havent answered my question about appealing to other players rather than talking to me like a man. It seems fairly obvious what the truth is-the truth is, you'd already made your mind up about me. You dont wanna hear an argument, you just want me strung up. That makes you either scum, or the most pig-headed type of townie.

I gave you an answer, so don't say that I did not. Wether you liked my answer or not, I answered.

I wasnt even reading the thread. Point of reference-if i'd been scum, and my buddy was getting run up, i'd have paid a little more attention and probably said SOMETHING.

Oh my, of course - why didn't I think of that? I'm so sorry to think you could be scum if you didn't do anything at the end of day 1.

Hahahaha. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

WRONG

!!!!!!!

THIS is why i'm seeing you as someone who hasnt grasped the game mechanic properly. If we assume (which i think everybody has?) that Malthusis opted to infect somebody-who would he infect?
Someone who was scummy yesterday? Someone who cant defend themselves? Someone who is poor at getting mislynches?

No. He would have infected someone he thought could take this game to the hoop. Of course, they dont have to do any more than survive 1 day, but to be on the safe-side, he will have chosen the best player he could. Perhaps he even took into account the presense of people like you, who would buy into the 3-scum theory, and spend the day looking backwards at what happened then. In that case, those on the FA wagon make good candidates, and those not on his wagon, and under heat, make bad candidates.

All right, so was wrong on that. Point taken.

I think we ought to be able to narrow down the infected scumbag to 3 or 4 suspects right now. Assuming we have 2 scum, that gives us a fair chance of nailing the game today. Once we have those suspects, THEN we can look at how they act TODAY. Not yesterday. Today.
A big factor will also be, who did Malthusis see as a strong competitor? Who would he have feared? Because that is the person he will have picked to join his side.

Three scum are possible. Assume just-two-scum all you want; I do not.

Cults are scum. -.-

Are you misunderstanding me on purpose? Then, let me rephrase it: Are you referring to a cult game with or without an

additional

scum group?

[Rally Vincent]

I re-read the end of yesterday. And 2 assertions you've made both turned out to be lies.

1. I was not under any pressure at the end of Day 1.
2. Malthusis was not under any pressure at the end of Day 1 (with the exception of being Kelly Chen's 2nd suspect).

1. Tell me where I said you were under pressure at end of Day 1.
2. I named Malthusis as a like scum. Look up post #320.

Go read the whole damn thread, or don't play. And back up your accusations.

[Rally Vincent]

*EBWOP: named Malthusis as like

ly

scum

[Rally Vincent]

You were voting for FA at the end of the day, and you had declared Veerus to be your primary target. If you wanna go on some sort of ego-trip that you "called Malthusis-scum", you go ahead. Fact is, had he been alive today, he would have been subordinate to Veerus, and possibly even me, in terms of your suspicion.

Effectively, you did the same as Kelly Chen. And my retort stands. Neither of you were making a big deal over Malthusis.

You accuse me of lying, and when I show you wrong, you accuse me of having an ego-trip. If you twist and tweak everything to your liking, you don't have a correct view of the picture. But that's not what you want anyway, is it?

[Rally Vincent]

I re-read the end of yesterday. And 2 assertions you've made both turned out to be lies.

1. I was not under any pressure at the end of Day 1.
2. Malthusis was not under any pressure at the end of Day 1 (with the exception of being Kelly Chen's 2nd suspect).

1. Tell me where I said you were under pressure at end of Day 1.

Last line of post 405.

BM

I do find it rather amusing that your case on me is my Day 1 play, but you

didnt feel like pushing this until now

. xD

Wonder why

that could be!

Have a look at how the votes were split the day before end of deadline, then think again.

I can't understand in the least where you get from this that I said

you were under pressure.

That is the answer on why I

did not push your case

because

that was your question

. You are making false statements. What good would another case be with the votes split like that one day before deadline? You're just trying to throw mud at me, that's all.

You were voting for FA at the end of the day, and you had declared Veerus to be your primary target. If you wanna go on some sort of ego-trip that you "called Malthusis-scum", you go ahead. Fact is, had he been alive today, he would have been subordinate to Veerus, and possibly even me, in terms of your suspicion.

Effectively, you did the same as Kelly Chen. And my retort stands. Neither of you were making a big deal over Malthusis.

You accuse me of lying, and when I show you wrong, you accuse me of having an ego-trip. If you twist and tweak everything to your liking, you don't have a correct view of the picture. But that's not what you want anyway, is it?

Lol, lets stick to the facts eh?

You said i was under pressure at the end of Day 1, in order to validate your claim that you had exhibited suspicion of me yesterday. Neither of these turned out to be true.

You also claimed that Malthusis was under pressure yesterday-specifically, more pressure than me. I think i've aptly pointed out that Malthusis was in fact, not under significant pressure, and thus, you lied here too.

Did you not feel obliged to reply to the rest of my comments? One point that sticks in my mind, is my asking you whether you intended to start playing the game now?

I notice you also stopped our little setup discussion. Have you conceded on that too?

BM

Yes, let's stick to the facts. I did not say you were under pressure on Day 1(see above). What I said is that I find you scummy for what you did (not) at the end of day 1. Malthusis was indeed under more pressure, since at least two people had him as possible suspect.

As for the setup, I said more then once what I think about that. You also did. Why do you bring that up again if you think it is wasting time and preventing from "playing the game"?.

[Rally Vincent]

You made a big point of asking about my cult game experience, and when i responded, you dropped the ball. Just thought it was a little amusing, and that it'd be nice if you outright admitted that i was right.

Okay, I misunderstood you there. Can you link me said game, please? I'd like to take a look into it.

[Rally Vincent]

BM, I had a quick look at the game you linked - I still think there were three scum in our game. Usually the cult can grow in numbers by recruiting, but in our game scum cannot exceed their original count.

Why did you claim now?

Missed this. If there's a scientist, then they protect BM tonight. If BM is indeed a guard, then someone else will die (most likely a townie, but whatever) confirming him for tomorrow (plus the added benefit of him hopefully shooting an infected). If he's scum, there will just be an infection, and we lynch him tomorrow. Of course, all this hinges on a scientist, so hopefully there is one (I'm willing to risk it anyhow).

A guard kill will only confirm BM for today, not tomorrow.

unvote

. I'm willing to give BM a chance to prove his claim (unless there is no better suspect).

vote: veerus

If BM isn't the third scum from yesterday, then veerus is. I will look for possible infectees next.

[Rally Vincent]

I have serious computer problems and will V/LA. If I can't get regular access within a few days, I will notify you somehow. Sorry.

[Rally Vincent]

No more V/LA

. Computer problems fixed.

[Rally Vincent]

I could go for a RV lynch today perhaps.

Why?

[Rally Vincent]

Because your theory that veerus was scum with malthusis and fallen angel yesterday makes zero sense at all. You've tunneled on veerus ridiculously hard and really haven't even mentioned his lurking as reasons he's scum (which I think is more concrete than his NL plan). His voting for FA yesterday pretty much ensured FA would get lynched, when I'm pretty sure he could have voted for Kise and either got Kise lynched or a no lynch, both far superior to FA being lynched if veerus was scum.

I don't think that a Kise lynch would have been a realistic option; in fact, voting Kise yesterday would have made veerus more suspicious - let alone pursuing the NL. And I called veerus out on not doing anything to find scum, so I don't understand why all of you reduce me to voting veerus for his NL plan only. I said several times that it wasn't his NL alone; what more do you expect?

[Rally Vincent]

Also, another really strong reason to support three scum in this game is malthusis's post 358.

With Mokina gone, me V/LA, FA not going to vote himself, and malthusis not going to vote FA, the game was left with 8 people and they needed 7 votes to lynch. BM hadn't posted anything worth posting in like two weeks before deadline, so that would mean veerus bussed his buddy to a lynch, when he could have forced a no lynch. I disagree that FA would have been lynched without veerus's earlyish vote.

You make a good point there. On the other hand, bussing FA would give veerus a good stand for Day 2 (just saying - BM could have popped up before deadline, even if dead silent before). Something not being probable doesn't mean it's not possible.

If we follow your assumption, then it was a all-town wagon yesterday, given that those reasons would leaving either one of Mokina/The Replacement, BM and you as original third scum. I'll have another look at Mokina/Replacement and you. It's definately worth a thought.

[Rally Vincent]

Im posting in this game tonight.

In the meanwhile, I want EVERYONE to comment in their following post.

How many scum LEFT do you think there are? And why?

Two scum are left. I argued with BM over that, so I won't repeat the reasons.

[Rally Vincent]

I didn't have access to the site for almost two days (always timed out). Maybe that's why prods weren't picked up. I heard that from the US there were no problems, though. Catching up.

[Rally Vincent]

I'm still in for a veerus lynch today (apparently, I am all alone in this). Besides yesterday, he originally had The Replacement as

infected

scum with Mokina "pretty townish" (Post #498). Now, he's declaring The Replacement/Mokina as

original

scum. No explanation why Mokina suddenly switched from town to original scum - just hiding behind charter.

I thought about charter being infected, but then veerus-scum wouldn't buddy up like this, so I am inclined to think that scum is preparing charter as a suspect for Day 3 with him leading a (mis)lynch on The Replacement. I liked what I heard from The Replacement regarding BM before his claim. Now he's dissapeared, so before judging him, I'll waiting for his replacement to say something.

[Rally Vincent]

EBWOP: *disappeared

[Rally Vincent]

@charter:

Why do you list BM as maybe infected, not as maybe original scum? This is bugging me to the extreme if you are serious about veerus 100% original town and the reason you have given.


My thoughts so far:

Original scum: veerus or BM - I won't repeat myself. Both of them don't strike me as likely infection targets. Veerus got enough attention to be a risk for being infected; BM was likely to be called out for his lurking.

Still town:
Tajo - obvtown Day 1; thus making him a good candidate for vaccination and too risky for infection.

Possibly infected:
In general: IMO obvtown players are less likely to be an infection target in Night 1: Much better targets are those in between (kinda in no-man's-land). Given the game mechanics, the attention of town lies on players who were standing out in one direction or the other (not that we had much obvtowns besides Tajo). I believe that such a players is more likely to be infected by not drawing much attention on him. So I'd like to seperate the possible infected players in two groups:

Group 1: likely infection targets
That include Shotty, KKN and Kelly Chen.

Shotty - His participation has declined noticable in comparision to Day 1 - meaning that on Day 2; I don't see that Shotty actually tries to hunt scum rather then debating about other's suspicions. On Day 1, Shotty voiced his own thoughts, trying to get things done. Nothing of this today. That makes him my primary suspect for getting infected.

KKN - Hard to say due to his abscence (and now getting replaced). On Day 1 he was neither scummy nor town beyond doubt; discussing with Tajo over FA too long to be taken as original scum, so a good candidate.

Kelly Chen: I was undecided until Kelly Chen made the list. The reasons given in the follow-up post are opposite to what I think in many points. If not for that, I'd probably have put KC in the below group.


Group 2: less likely infection targets
Kise - PP was town IMO. Kise also gave me town vibes in rereading; had FA as scum. As for infection, I think there was a tad too much attention on Kise on Day 1 to make him a better infection target then the above. It's pretty late and I didn't find the exact spots on Kise Day 1; I'll look into that again.


I will withhold about charter until he answered my question. Regarding Mokina, I have to reread her at the weekend.

[Rally Vincent]

I had a reread of Mokina; it was inconsistant compared to her earlier games. Those earlier games didn't differ enough to get a meta read. I think I found a slight difference between her scum game and her town games, but one scum game doesn't really give that much to be sure - considering that Mokina's posts here seem to lack "face-to-face" conversation. I'd very much like to hear from Mokina/Replacement's replacement to get a further clue. I'd be very disappointed with a lynch before that.

Still; I'd go for a veerus as original scum lynch anytime. Didn't do anything on Day 1, and on Day 2 he is mirroring charter. That's about it. I also think BM could be original scum; after his claim, he (again) lurked hardcore. With this in mind, Mokina would only come in third in my original scumbook.


charter is rather original town in my book. I am interested in his thoughts about Shotty; if he was a likely or less likely infection target depends(partly) on that.

Who do you think is scum besides me?

You might set an example by telling us who is/are your other suspect(s) besides The Replacement - prefarably before charter names someone else.

[Rally Vincent]

charter, how can you find shotty scum for voting FA on Day 1 and "parroting" you on Day 2 without doing much else, but not veerus? Seriously, most of what you said about Shotty applies to veerus as well. Why do you still have veerus not as scum?

tubby216 replacing is good news. I'll look forward for a new angle. Questions can wait; I'd rather hear a statement that is not predirected.

[Rally Vincent]

Okay, I see now that this is a stronger fact for you then for me, but I can accept that (although I still disagree). Giving that, I don't see a contradiction anymore.

So, to complete my list, I have charter as maybe infected, but in Group 2 (less likely).

[Rally Vincent]

page 13/14 i would hjave lynched KKn by now

Heheh... should we now

[Rally Vincent]

If BM really fakeclaimed for us to find scum by leaving him out, he'd have shut up and taken a guard kill on him for the team. That claim was the only thing that made me unvote BM in the first place. Since then, BM lurked again and did nothing to find scum.

I was going to re-read, but now I won't need to just yet as this is ridiculous.

And again, veerus galdly takes the opportunity to not explain himself.

Either one of them is original scum. Unfortunately, I don't see a majority on veerus, so:

unvote vote: Battle Mage

[Rally Vincent]

If BM really fakeclaimed for us to find scum by leaving him out, he'd have shut up and taken a guard kill on him for the team. That claim was the only thing that made me unvote BM in the first place. Since then, BM lurked again and did nothing to find scum.

I was going to re-read, but now I won't need to just yet as this is ridiculous.

And again, veerus galdly takes the opportunity to not explain himself.

Either one of them is original scum. Unfortunately, I don't see a majority on veerus, so:

unvote vote: Battle Mage

boo for you what way to be opertunistic! and while i am at it boo to everyone who is voting BM because they cannot make their case on the person they truly feel is scummy.

So much for actually reading. I thought you did an iso read me. I stated my case on BM already.

[Rally Vincent]

And you think BM once fakeclaiming as town in the olden days makes him town here does not?

[Rally Vincent]

You still havent taken up my offer to explain your vote on me.

Same reasons as before. Your claim was the only thing that made me take my vote off you. It's not like you did much in the meantime to change my mind, so I won't repeat myself. Plus, if you're scum you probably won't get through with fakeclaiming guard since the guard will just kill you. That's a pretty good reason for making a U-Turn after the heat went elsewhere. Not to mention that you're not scumhunting - at least I don't see an effort.

[Rally Vincent]

Clearly, you misunderstood the above quote. What i meant to say was:

Why do you not want to explain your original vote on me?

Why are you pretending that I did not?

Unvote, Vote: Veerus

All follow the fat guy.

BM

What I like best about this is how you lectured me about veerus being cleared town at beginning of Day 2 (e.g. in #425).

[Rally Vincent]

Before we lynch, I'd like to hear a list of suspects from animorpherv, since we lynched BM before he could say something. I'd like to have some insight from him before we close the day.

After that, I'm okay with a Shotty lynch.

[Rally Vincent]

(Tajo, best wishes for your grandfather.)

Shotty is scum. I'm in for his lynch. I was just going to vote him, but saw that Tajo wants some questions answered, so I'll wait... a bit.[/b]

[Rally Vincent]

Shotty's Day 2 play strikes me as scummy. Mostly, as I did point out, because he had a serious downfall in his scum finding attempt. After being called out (not only by me), Shotty raised his activity, but I see a inconsistent play on Day itself. Especially with the huge post by post on BM. Shotty has done analysis while giving post numbers, but not like that with BM, but within a summary. After BM now flipped town, that looks very bad to me.

Now, he's after Kelly Chen - but what about Mokina/Replacement/animorph? He only mentioned (them) now, but shouldn't he been after (them) from the beginning, or at least mention them instead doing again a huge post by post (on Kelly Chen)? This is inconsistent.

Even more, Shotty has been trying to push a Mokina/Replacement lynch yesterday, and I don't see why he would have expected a no night action when Mokina/Replafcement/animorph was under such pressure yesterday. This makes no sense and has been pulled out of his sleeve with little time.

Finally, Shotty claims to have "vaccinated" charter. Why would he do that considering this (adressed to BM in #714):

That's what you said. I felt that Malthusis would've come under suspicion on D2, much as happened to you, had he not suicided that night. He wasn't on the scum wagon and I think even if you were in a weaker position, which is sketchy, you would've asked him to bite the shit sandwich and continued on.

If that would be true, Scientist Shotty would have targeted Malthusis Night 1.

[Rally Vincent]

My prime suspect for today is tubby, though. Tubby, why did you vote for Shotty?

[Rally Vincent]

EBWOP: I could think of either charter or Tajo as infected. (Then the Tubby stuff)

[Rally Vincent]

Are you still hiding behind charter no matter what? Charter was really in a hurry to lynch Shotty yesterday. Of course, others - including me - weren't hesitating either, but it should be at least worth a look. Even more since he is one of your suspects.

[Rally Vincent]

My prime suspect for today is tubby, though. Tubby, why did you vote for Shotty?

seemed like the right thing to do at the time i wasn't expecting a speed lynch, by time i got back to the thread shotty was dead

Yes, but why exactly?

[Rally Vincent]

Are you still hiding behind charter no matter what? Charter was really in a hurry to lynch Shotty yesterday. Of course, others - including me - weren't hesitating either, but it should be at least worth a look. Even more since he is one of your suspects.

charter's not scum, unless he was just now recruited. But that seems unlikely due to yesterday's misfortune.

The point of my post was not that charter is scum, but veerus voting with charter, although charter is his most-likely-to-be-infected. Why would you someone do that?

Nevertheless, tubby is more suspicious to me right now then veerus.

[Rally Vincent]

Yeah but charter being in a hurry to lynch Shotty doesn't seem relevant to veerus' theory for charterscum.

Charter is the most-likely-infected for veerus, as he said - regardless if you or me think charter is. Since we had two suicides, that equals that for veerus charter is most likely scum. I fail to see why he has to vote for the same player charter does if he thinks charter is scum. Doesn't make sense.

BTW, veerus would be the best infection target, since every day everybody says he is not scum. If it wasn't for tubby voting veerus... dunno. Maybe he's bussing him.

[Rally Vincent]

So, nobody seems to find this odd?

awesome its been fun but since i am most likely dead tonite i'll claim

i am a technician,

I sincerely doubt veerus would be infected. He is a potential lynch for some people.

Really? For who? Besides me, everybody says veerus is obv town. Every day. How would veerus be a bad target?

[Rally Vincent]

What I was pointing out was that veerus only thought charter was scum as of last night. So charter's behavior regarding lynching Shotty wasn't relevant.


Well here's my vote.

vote: poptajo

I will accept your questions until the bitter end, if you have any. Don't be shy

Nevertheless, he thinks charter is probably scum. What would you think about veerus if we lynch Tajo and Tajo flips scum?

[Rally Vincent]

Veerus is a bad target because even some think he is prob town (like me), he has been suspected by some people in some stages of the game. Also, I dont remember having the impression of everybody but you thinking he as prob town, but I might be wrong.

We're on Day 4. Who hasn't been suspected now and then? But even if I am wrong about veerus' alignment - there was at no time the danger for veerus of being lynched. He may not have been a good target on Day 1, but being prob town got most players chosen as likely infection target. What's different about veerus?

[Rally Vincent]

hm i thought i was pretty clear..

we've had 2 suicides, malt and mokina/et al. Given how tajo was the obvious choice D1, i feel it's pretty likely that malt would've gone for someone else.. as i (and BM) mentioned early in D2, KC was likely the one who malt would've picked

fast forward to last night's suicide.. the two obvious choices are tajo and charter.. to me, charter is the more likely target since he's been significantly more active and spot on with several of his reads however tajo is a great choice as well.

the idea behind my vote on KC is that i feel that that was malt's infection choice - a theory given strength by KC's counter wagon on Shotty to save replacement. Assuming this is correct, we can then evaluate today's play from tajo and charter to determine who's our last infected for tomorrow...... savvy?

Aye, Captain Jack veerus. After thinking about this, you have a point there. If Mokina was original sum, with charter protected by Scientist Shotty, BM not being infected - that leaves 6 possible infectees.

Tajo, Kelly, KKN/Tubby, Kise, you, me.

If we leave Tajo out for said reasons, you for bringing this up now and me, we have 3 possible suspects left. Tubby, Kelly, Kise. I like those odds better then guessing who might have gotten infected last night.

Also, thoughts on Mokina original scum or infected at night? This could become important in our guessing of the number or original infected.

Yes, OR it could help us claim that somebody else is still original scum

FOS: you

That doesn't look good to me considering the above. Maybe I could go with a Kelly lynch; tubby seems also good to me. Going to look at Mokina Day 1 again.

[Rally Vincent]

*EBWOP: six possible Night 1 infectees

[Rally Vincent]

ani repeatedly proposed recruiting Rally, but I didn't see the point as Rally mostly played nice with us.

You can say that twice. I think I only made two things right - pointing on malthusis Day 1 and protecting charter last night. For the rest of the time, I have been running around with a blindfold in a dark room.

It's only a bit of a relief that I was right with charter being a potential infection target after Shotty's lynch. Nevertheless, I need to get more experience.

[Rally Vincent]

I assume Shotty lied so that scum wouldn't have a safe passage for infection in case there was another scientist, especially since there seemed to be no guard. I have to admit I didn't think there was a second scientist (or three), but after Shotty turned scientist, I didn't think he vaccinated charter, which is why I did.

[Rally Vincent]

What I'm also interested in are the reasons for BM's fakeclaim and back-off. Obviously, the discussion after BM claimed helped in finding scum, and I wonder who charter and Shotty would have vaccinated if BM hadn't admitted he was fakeclaiming (I already had on Night 1).

BM, did you suspect more then one scientist?

[Rally Vincent]

Solo scientist didn't really benefit as much from vaccinating themselves since it has a dual-effect if it goes to someone else so that pretty much cinched it for me.

Agree with Shotty here.