834 - Grimm's Pokemon Madness Mafia - Over

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/confirm

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Vote: Sironigous

for replacing out of Lazy Neighborhood. :p

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^ Probably to generate discussion.

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I'm speculating as to why a player would fake a daykill and then vote himself during RVS. You didn't seem satisfied with his response, so I weighed-in.

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Suave, you attacked a player for attacking another player, even though there's no reason for you to care who attacks whom at this stage in the game. The only reason that you would be biased with regard to who attacked whom was if someone attacked a scumbuddy (or fellow mason, maybe); hence, attacking another's attacker without already finding that attacker scummy is suspicious. Does that make sense?

The problem with dramonic's mention of it in this case is that this can't be a chainsaw defense unless he himself is scum. If he is town, he should know that you weren't chainsaw-defending him, because you couldn't be his scumbuddy.

Either dramonic was joking, or he slipped.

Unvote, Vote: dramonic

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Chainsaw defense absolutely implies scum, as even your second sentence illustrates. That's why it's a "standard tell," and why it is relevant to discuss.

I think your second sentence is a little mistaken. As written on the wiki, chainsaw defense is scum --> town --> scum, where"-->" means "attacks." A scumplayer attacks a player for attacking his scumpartner. In this situation, that maps to Suave --> SK --> you. But you'd know you were town if you were, so you wouldn't interpret this circumstance as a chainsaw defense. That you did otherwise is suspicious.

It is possible that one of us has misunderstood CD. If so, you may not be scum.

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Why do you want to kill Suave rather than dramonic?

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I am 90% sure that he was bluffing.

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Jebus, I think it's clear at this point that dramonic didn't mean it as a joke (consider his post 58). He either misunderstood CD a bit and thought that it meant that scum chainsaw-defended townies (e.g. maybe that scum uses it to buddy with the attacked townie), or he slipped.

Nikanor, please introduce a new conversation topic if you find the current one unproductive.

Spinach, I am wary of transparently stochastic play. Please try to list nonrandom reasons for your choices in the future so that we can interpret them.

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Spinach, please clarify your comment if it requires clarification.

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Jebus, you think this is a joke? --

Chainsaw defense doesn't imply scum. It just implies A defending B by attacking C because C attacked A.

It's a scum tactic and as written in the wiki, the one who is usually scum is the defender, not the defended.

Also, it was just there, was I suppose to ignore it? No, no I wasnt.

But that's neither here nor there.

unvote, Vote: Spinach

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For anyone who was interested in Zaz's question, I gave a serious answer to Spinach's question because he didn't look satisfied with Nik's non-serious one (the ellipsis post).

I wish Zaz had claimed how this ability worked before she used it. Does its failure mean that Spinach is town ("failed to take one of the threats to the town with him"), or just that she had a vig ability with a chance of backfiring? I'm assuming the latter and keeping my vote where it is for now.

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Haylen, I don't think it's likely SK planned that with his scumbuddy, unless you think he's scum with Spinach. If Spinach is town, SK couldn't have known that Spinach would get confused that way, or would happen to slip that he had an atypical trainer role (whichever it is).

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That is utterly bizarre.

Is there anyone else who is something other than a Pokemon? I don't want to know your role or abilities at the moment; I just want to know if you are not a Pokemon.

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I agree with Nika that Haylen's comment about Sir could be a scum slip. If it were an honest mistake, I'd think she'd probably have acknowledged/contested my comment.

Spinach is really scummy. First, he says he's a trainer, then he says he only thought we were trainers, then he says he's a doctor with minimal flavor. The only thing on his side is Zaz.

SK still needs to say whether he's a Pokemon.

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I'd like for him to flavorclaim before he is hammered at the very least, even though he prior implied he doesn't have much in the way of flavor.

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EBWOP: If he hasn't flavorclaimed within a reasonable amount of time, though (i.e. if he tries to lurk the scrutiny away), I'd be fine with you hammering.

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Jebus, I meant that I agree with Nika's point that it would be a very challenging win condition for Zaz if s/he had to find scum and kill scum via Daykill and still only had a chance of success.

Also, I see what you did there.

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I agree with dramonic. Spinach's claim is very odd. The Mod has let us know that odd stuff will happen, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

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Spinach, why are you voting Jebus instead of Kise?

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His point is that if Spinach's scum, his lynch is such a foregone conclusion that it's unlikely that his scumbuddies will continue/begin to actively petition against his lynch. So it's harder to evaluate anything new that happens from here on out.

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I want Spinach to answer before I respond to dramonic.

It was an unintentional reference, I think, Jebus.

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I'm surprised that Haylen didn't play that better, regardless of her alignment. I'd vote her if I weren't busy voting Spinach and waiting for him to answer my question.

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I think a good example of the utility of fakevoting to get reactions can be found from the first time Jebus fakevoted to put you at L-1. Kise opportunistically hammered. We learned that Kise wanted to end the day early without actually having to end the day early. You can also sometimes get scum to claim scum when they think they've been lynched, which is great for obvious reasons.

I think scumlists are useful, but townlists are not useful in most games. I think advertising town reads tells the mafia who to kill more than anything else.

I agree with your comments about Haylen and Kise.

Please answer my question, though. Why did you vote Jebus for his fake hammer when you didn't (until now) pick on Kise for much the same thing?

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It's unclear to me whether Jebus's L-1 fakevote was intentional or not. Either way, though, it resulted in Kise "hammering" you. My confusion was why Kise didn't seem to get much grief from you for this.

Why did you think that Kise wasn't scummy when he was the one who hammered you without letting us work out the details of your role?

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You could've let Spinach answer my question. The Mod won't write the death scene until tomorrow, since he doesn't have access on weekends.

I think Spinach can still talk until the death scene, though, right? (The rules don't clarify.) Spinach, if you could answer my question to help us understand your read on Kise, that would be helpful.

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Well, that seems to answer one question.

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Is not twilight til the Mod comes and locks the thread innit.

Also, that is mean.

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Yeah. He's claiming that Shadow dies for hammering him and he daykills me, depending upon how the roles work.

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So I think there're 8 alive instead of 9, right?

The Meowth kill could mean Haylen was some kind of traitor, but it's difficult to say because Haylen seemed fairly scummy yesterday IMO (low scumhunting, the possible slip about scum daytalking). If she was a traitor, scum may've been trying to set-up Nikanor as lying about his Daykill (not knowing she was actually scum).

If not, the kill may've been due to a vig or SK, as it seems unlikely that scum would kill a potential mislynch. But that would mean that SK successfully protected last night, which is probabilistically unlikely. (Scum could also have a delayed kill, I guess.)

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Yep, that's my understanding. SK was killed because he hammered Spinach. GF is indeed probably Godfather; I don't know why I didn't think of that. In that case, unless scum has a delayed kill, I think it's probable that SK (or someone, at least) successfully protected the scum's target.

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I can get behind that. I think it's the obvious place to look next.

Vote: Kise

.

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I was right about Spinach being counterclaimed (once, not twice).

Huh? What are you talking about? (Does anyone else know?)

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I see the doctor breadcrumbs you're referring to from SK, but I think calling that a "subtle counterclaim" is a stretch. At least, I didn't leap to that conclusion, certainly not with enough certainty to justify hammering, and especially not when I had directed unanswered questions at him and other players (fallen) had specifically requested we wait before ending the day.

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When did you claim there were no trainers? I've just looked at your iso and the only time you've typed "trainer" was in that post. Moreover, even if you had claimed as much, I think that would make you more suspicious rather than less because we had good reason to believe there were scum trainers and little reason to believe otherwise. That you hypothetically believed there were no trainers is better evidence that you have extra knowledge about the set-up (e.g. by being scum) than anything else.

It's impossible for us to evaluate whether you really thought that about SK's hypothetical CC. In retrospect, it's clear that he was breadcrumbing; it's less clear that that was the basis for your hammer.

Who do you think is a better lynch than you?

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Simulpost. That last question stands, though.

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@ Sir -- Only the "doctor" post qualifies as anything like a soft claim IMO. The other remarks are comparable to what almost all of us were saying about Spinach.

Fair enough, Kise.

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Nikanor, I was referring to Spinach's claim that he was a trainer. He was quite scummy and claimed to be a trainer. This constituted good reason to believe there were scum trainers IMO. I posted that because Kise had claimed he had never thought there were any trainers, whereas in fact he had never commented as much in-thread and had good reason to believe trainers existed via Spinach's claim. We ultimately learned that Spinach was a Pokemon after all, but only Spinach and (maybe) scum had access to that information yesterday.

I agree with your other three points.

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MrSuave, please clarify your prior statement if it is necessary.

Unvote

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It doesn't give as much information as a lynch, though. Vigs are in general a good thing, but I think Nika may be exaggerating a bit. Compulsive vigs can cause problems sometimes.

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If my current vote isn't doing anything productive and another player has done something suspicious, I sometimes unvote to indicate that I am preparing to vote for a different player. The Kise wagon had died down for the time being and I agreed with you that MrSuave's comment was odd, so I weakly supported it.

I'd encourage you to introduce a new conversation topic if you don't like the current one, but I suppose you at least asked about my unvote.

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I'm not sure I understand, MS. What are you hoping to accomplish by expressing your anxiety? Are you encouraging the vig to claim?

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Assuming that scum is Jessie/James/Meowth as per Nika's speculation, scum may have been able to infer that Spinach was not a trainer, especially coupled with the opening post, which specified that we were Pokemon. I bothered mentioning it to emphasize that Kise's hypothesis that there were no trainers may be scummy.

Sir, when does a vig kill give as much information as a lynch?

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So long as we're waiting --

Nika, what do you make of MS's explanation of his behavior? I ask you specifically because he alluded to a game he played with you as the source of his confusion.

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I think a good case can be made against Kise. The attempted hammer on Spinach was untimely; it occured when more than one player was still waiting for responses from Spinach. His explanation -- that he wanted to keep SK safe -- is plausible, but the breadcrumb was a little weak to justify such a drastic early hammer IMO. I also don't like that he took me backing off as an excuse to lurk rather than as an opportunity to scumhunt.

Before Jebus mentioned as much, I had just begun to suspect Sir, to be honest, largely because he seemed to begin to weakly suspect me just after another player (you) had expressed suspicion of me, even though I felt like I'd addressed your concerns adequately. I thought he might be testing the waters to see whether your view of me had changed and which other players might have doubts about my play. This is a pretty weak case, which is why I hadn't mentioned anything. However, it looks like Jebus may have some privileged information/more compelling observations, so I'll wait for that.

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EBWOP: You probably want me to comment on MS. I think he may be scum, but he's hard to read because he may just be making errors. You're probably in a better position to judge him than me because he's (I assume?) your RL friend. On that note --

MS, we've heard a lot about your history with vigs and so forth but not a lot about your reads. Who do you think is scum, and why?

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I also know that Nik has a weird vendeta against me in any kind of game we play,

Ignoring any ongoing games on this site, what games are you talking about? RL games? Online games?

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I unvoted you on the basis that a case had ALREADY come up for MS, and a pretty reasonable one. I don't like to keep my vote on someone if it can be put to better use elsewhere. It's possible that Jebus's case might be enough for me to vote for Sir; I'm not sure yet. My own read on Sir is weak, but I wanted to mention it because it was topical.

You'll notice that I've already made these points in previous posts. Since you haven't bothered to allude to them even to refute them, this may imply that you're more concerned with finding me scummy than evaluating all the content to determine my alignment. This is scummy, but I want to wait to hear Jebus's information before placing a vote.

I apologize for forgetting about your note that you'd be posting every 2 days. But you'll have to forgive me for making that mistake when you went from highly-active to largely-absent just after I agreed to temporarily put your case on hold.

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I didn't end up voting for MS because I was satisfied with MS's explanation. There was no reason for me to distance from Sir because I hadn't attached myself to him.

Kise's post is again disingenuous. I've already explained why I mentioned my weak suspicion of Sir. That he brings this up again without even acknowledging that I've already answered his question emphasizes that he is not reading my responses critically. He doesn't care about the answer to his questions; he just wants to use them rhetorically to convince other players.

If you think 2 votes will make me claim, you are mistaken.

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I voiced my suspicions when I did because Nika had just asked for them. I can understand how someone could interpret ulterior motives into the timing of my mentioning it, but it was really just as simple as that. You (Kise) and Sir made the cut because there's a decent case against Kise and Sir was topical. I added MS afterwards because Nika was voting him and I figured that was what he was really curious about.

Why is it obvious that knowing my elemental type determines whether I'm Team Rocket? Are you assuming that Jesse and James are represented by Ekans and Koffing or something? I'm hesitant to give information to a player I suspect may be scum, especially when you've implied that knowing my type will let you use some kind of ability.

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We ultimately learned that Spinach was a Pokemon after all,

but only Spinach and (maybe) scum had access to that information yesterday.

Why do you think that scum knew what Spinach was?

This is what I was referring to. In the context of the post, it comes just after you congratulated Nika for his deductions and just before you suggested that lynches only "sometimes" give more information than vigs (contradicting my prior point). So, in context, you praise Nika, ask a penetrating question at his former suspect (me), and then undermine me in the discussion with Nika (in a way that didn't make much sense to me). Again, and as I originally stated, it was weak suspicion, and I didn't think it was much of a case yet; I only mentioned it because I was asked directly and it was topical.

I am skeptical that Kise's ability works the way he says it does (why would he be so open about it if it did?), but I figure my type is unlikely to mess anything up, and I'm curious about Kise's information. I am a water-type Pokemon. There's one more note I'd like to add about this, but I want to hear from Kise first.

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It's certainly possible that you didn't mean it that way, and I considered that, which is why I both specified that you

weakly

suspected me and termed my case weak, but that's the passage I was referring to.

This is the part I perceived was intended to undermine my argument. It came just after what I quoted above:

It [A vig kill] doesn't give as much information as a lynch, though.

... sometimes.

I used the word "undermine" because the tone of your contradiction seemed intended more to discredit me than to argue for any specific position.

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I've only seen the very beginning of the show. I was really into it when I was in 5th-6th grade. I remember Ekans and Koffing evolving (I think) and Togepi appearing (very vaguely), but nothing beyond that. If there are other canon TR Pokemon, I don't know them very well. Also, I'm not familiar with any Pokemon after 152 or so.

The thing I alluded to wanting to add is that while Wikipedia lets me know that my Pokemon is water-type, my PM doesn't explicitly give me the type -- not even in the flavor text. I'm a little skeptical that your ability is based on elemental type when players aren't explicitly told their type. Granted, that sort of thing is probably more null in this game than in other games.

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How much of it was fake? All of it? Lacking the ability you claimed you had, what did you hope to gain from bluffing like that?

Vote: Kise

. I may unvote if Kise has a reasonable explanation or Jebus's case against Sir is uncommonly strong, but it seems remote after a scummy hammer, a scummy attack, and this latest stunt.

Nika, I would encourage you to skim through my iso.

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I offered the possibility that Haylen may have been a traitor as an explanation for why she died N1. I retracted that possibility when someone pointed out that GF probably stood for godfather.

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Ah, OK. I can see how I misread that. Back to

Unvote

ing until I hear Jebus's story.

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I thought it was "girlfriend," to be honest. That's what I think automatically when I see "GF." I couldn't remember whether the Meowth character was supposed to be male or female (I think the VA is male, but...).

My own role name is kinda tailored to my Pokemon role a bit, so it didn't occur to me that Meowth's role would be as simple as "GF." I found Spinach's "Doctor" claim bizarre for the same reason.

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EBWOP: Reviewing the kill flavor, I see that SK was Bulbasaur, and simply Town Doctor. It seems like either I'm alone in having a slightly cuter rolename, or the Mod is editing the rolenames down to size when he posts kill flavor.

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I used the word "undermine" because the tone of your contradiction seemed intended more to discredit me than to argue for any specific position.

Actually, there I was. I don't see how that was an accusation though - and it wasn't meant to be - it's a theory topic! Just like in real life, put together theories and find the best one using support, observations, and analysis...

I think there may have been a miscommunication. The "accusation" (NB: I just doublechecked, and I think I've actually called it "expressing suspicion" and "ask a penetrating question" -- never "accusation" AFAIK; I think that would've been an exaggeration) is a separate event from the "undermining." The sequence of events (all within one post) is 1. Sir high-fives Nika 2. Sir asks me the "penetrating question" 3. Sir undermines my view.

I think you guys are really taking it out of proportion. It's not like I voted for him over this. I just answered Nika's question with it because it was on my mind and therefore the only honest answer to his question.

Why do you keep taking out the first "e" in my name? O_o

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Kise's claimed ability seems pretty worthless to me. I thought it might be used to catch fakeclaims, but scum apparently has very little motivation to lie about their elemental type. I guess it's possible they wouldn't have bothered with keeping type consistent if the scum roles were pretty scummy (humans, or Ekans and Koffing) and they just wanted to claim anything else, but they certainly will now that Kise's claimed the ability.

If Kise is town, he has played poorly, or he is lying. The only circumstance where it was OK to tell us about his ability would be if he had another stronger ability, but he's already told us he intends to use the elemental-checker tonight, so he must not. He shouldn't be using it unless he has to because it's now easy to circumvent its role in finding fakeclaims. For that matter, it's also useless in evaluating my element claim, because he claimed it before I did. I think it is simplest to assume that he is scum trying to establish a credible cop-lite PR role in hopes that we will give him the benefit of the doubt.

To people who know the source material better than me -- is there a canon Pokemon ability that determines the alignment of other Pokemon (similar to Kise's claimed ability)?

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EBWOP:

alignment

element

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That isn't rolefishing. I'm asking for information about the canon -- not anyone's in-game abilities. Did you misread my question, or do you think it's scummy to ask about the canon?

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No, that's not what I'm asking at all. I don't need to ask what ability Kise has; Kise has already claimed he has an ability that determines the element of a player. I would like to know if what he's claimed exists in the source material. The other abilities we've seen match the source material, though we don't know for certain whether the flavor of SK's protect matched a canon skill. The most that would come out of this is the probable name of Kise's ability, if it exists, which I don't think affects game mechanics at all. Hell, I could probably research this myself if I were so inclined, but there are clearly experts here, so I figured I'd ask you guys.

Why are you 1. ignoring the content of the vast majority of my post 2. totally misrepresenting my intent in the bit of it you do address? You attacked Haylen at a time when (I think) the Spinach business had already started, so I'm inclined to say you're town, but your lack of balance here isn't very subtle.

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Fair enough, but why not just accuse me of tunneling? I'm certainly tunneling a bit, if only because I'm biding my time waiting for Jebus, and it doesn't help that Kise keeps doing weird stuff.

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I cannot think of another purpose (apart from lie detection) for the ability as you have described it, and I can't think of any use whatsoever now that it's out in the open. It could be that you have incompletely described it, or I may just not be creative enough. Granted, I really think you're scum, in which case this may all be a fantasy.

My only failure to budge before you pretty much claimed your ability was refusing to claim anything with 2 votes IIRC. Do you think I was wrong to do so?

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All I have said is that I am a water-type Pokemon. I have not claimed any abilities.

I think a cop ability claim is a reliable basis for a lynch. I doubt scum would pull this kind of gambit. There's a possibility that he is insane, especially given the atmosphere of this game, but I'm assuming he's not.

Vote: Sironigous

.

Please take into account whether your flavor indicates that you may be insane (e.g. if you're a "wacky" Pokemon).

Do you intend to explain why you investigated Sir N1? He's not the player I would've chosen.

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I missed your reason. Sorry. If you can be a little clearer with regard to what gives you bad vibes, I might be able to help you with that, too. I'm assuming the bit about your sanity is just information for us.

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I'm not "pushing" the insanity theory. I do not think that Jebus is insane. You have misread my post. I think Jebus is probably sane. This is the probability hierarchy:

Jebus is sanetown > Jebus is insanetown > Jebus is scum

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Jebus, is there reason to believe that your ability finds killing roles rather than scum?

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EBWOP: Sir, are your abilities probabilistically successful (e.g. X% chance of failure), or is failure only mediated by the target's abilities (e.g. abilities like your Hide).

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Actually, Sir, ignore my last question. I still want to hear from Jebus, though. I'll

Unvote

for now. If Sir is scum, this is probably an attempt to draw out the vig, which is all but inevitable in that eventuality. If Sir actually killed Haylen, I think the chance that he is scum is very low. I will assume that he actually killed Haylen unless I am told otherwise.

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I know that you can only vig when your tail is burning or whatever, but I'm a little confused about Flash. Can you Flash at any time, or only when your tail is not burning? For example, what would your options be today had you not killed Haylen?

You've indicated that you're sometimes forced to use flash rather than hide. Does this only apply to hide?

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Do the first 3 Hides also have a chance of failing? If a Hide fails and you're forced to use Flash, can you choose your target?

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If I don't want to flash, I can use my other ability that involves hiding in a cave to regain my fire strength. In other words, I jailkeep myself (no cop investigations, night kills, or any targetables affect me).

Of course, as a fire pokemon, my rage and flame might become uncontrollable,

forcing me to use flash instead

. I can only use hide 3 times in this game.

The second paragraph is what led me to believe that you're sometimes forced to use Flash instead of Hide. The previous paragraph (the first one I quote here) is about using Hide, so I assumed from context that this was about being forced to use Flash instead of Hide. The flavor's different from where you use Flash instead of Scratch ("tail fire goes out" /=/ "flame might become uncontrollable"), so I figure you're not talking about that. Could you clarify this, please?

Speaking of that -- is this flavor all based on PM paraphrasing, or is any of it your own interpretation?

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He investigated Sir because he didn't have a read on him. I imagine he also investigated FA because he didn't have a read on him.

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EBWOP: That's assuming that Jebus is confirming Sir. But even if he's not, the same principle may apply.

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I'm not going to give any further information about my role. Suffice it to say that I am in no way responsible Jebus's result on Sir. My guess is that Jebus's ability finds killing roles. He hasn't commented on that yet, but he may when he finishes doing whatever he's doing with Sir.

What's "Heart Swap" do in canon? Switch HP bars?

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Nah, it looks like there are a handful of possibilities. I'll put my money on a certain one, though.

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I've already explained why I asked Sir that in post 401, so I'm not going to repeat myself in detail. Briefly summarized, it looked like there was a contradiction in Sir's claim. It's still not quite clear what Sir meant in the passage I quoted. Sir, if you would clarify said passage (post 401 on this page), I would appreciate it. You answered the other question in my post, but I think you missed the first one.

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What's Porygon do in the show? All I know is that you buy it from a slot machine or something in the first game. Unless Kise is scum daytalking with Nika (extremely remote), I'd say he's not lying about being Porygon, especially because we have at least one other flavorcop who can check that his element changed. (Granted, Sir can't check Kise until Day 4.)

So, clearing Kise through Nika, Nika through suspecting Haylen when there was already a viable non-scum wagon, Sir through killing Haylen, and Jebus by setting-up a 1-1 and presumably finding that Sir was a killing role, that leaves MS, dramonic, and FA.

FA hasn't posted since Monday. He may need to be prodded. MS has kept quiet since Nika criticized him for speculating about the vig. dramonic piggybacked on NikaKise's miniwagon against me, voted me based on misreading my post (which he never contested), and started trying to push some unnecessarily complex theory on my involvement in Jebus's result when a simpler explanation exists. FA and MS are lurking, but dramonic is scummy.

Vote: dramonic

.

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I think dramonic meant that there aren't very many basic flying/normal Pokemon.

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Oh, missed that. I saw "non-evolved" but not "not." :X

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Why do I get a question mark next to my type? Did you miss that I re-confirmed that I'm Water?

As should go without saying by my failure to claim in this post, I'm not Squirtle or either of its evolved forms.

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MS, it sounds like your Drain ability lets you see the player's abilities and pick one. Does this mean you can use it to see what abilities each player has? Can you also personally choose the target of your action. I don't really understand the stipulations regarding when MS can and cannot use abilities. If someone could summarize all of it for me and show that it hasn't changed since MS's original claim, I would be grateful.

I doubt TR killed Haylen via busdriver. Only a town busdriver would've messed with Sir if he's scum, and a town busdriver surely would've come out after Sir's claim and claimed responsibility for Sir's target. I think the only possibility is that FA is lurking/absent and was responsible for the hypothetical busdrive. So I think Sir is probably town. The lack of second kill must've been via roleblock or SK choosing correctly.

I think it's odd that MS is an explicit miller and Sir is an implicit one. Of these, I think MS is more likely to be lying because he hasn't claimed an uncontested scum-kill. I also agree that the investigative roles are over-the-top, but they do all appear to be nerfed in some way. Numerical probability alone indicates that at least one of them is probably scum, though.

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If FA is a town busdriver and just hasn't been paying attention to the thread at all, then it is possible that Sir is scum. Otherwise, I think you're overlooking the possibility that your ability finds killing roles. There are 4 claimed investigative roles; even if one of these is fake, it's reasonable that yours is imperfect in some way. I agree that Sir was a little quick to claim, but it could just be that he recognized a guilty cop claim would be enough to get him to claim.

At any rate, it's just a matter of FA posting or being replaced.

[Iecerint]

Roles can typically still perform whatever their function is on the night they're killed, so I think SK could've protected successfully, even if the chances of him choosing correctly were pretty low. It looks like you're assuming that MS isn't lying about being a Miller and may not be taking FA into account.

[Iecerint]

MS, can you drain innate abilities in addition to active ones? For example, if you Drain'd Jebus, would you get a free investigation, or would it be unavailable because Jebus has already used his investigation this block? If you Drain'd Sir, would you choose between Scratching and Flashing, or would you only have access to Flashing because his tail is "out" this cycle?

[Iecerint]

I think the Mod said he'd be gone til Tuesday, so we may have an uneventful long weekend.

I think Draining Jebus'd be better than Draining Sir because it's possible that Sir could be scum and still have those 3 abilities (1 kill, 1 weak rolecop, 1 hide).

[Iecerint]

What do you mean, Kise? He's provided an example of a post-150 Pokemon that's appeared in this game.

Jebus, when do you get the result from your cop ability?

[Iecerint]

Oh. I read that as "Oh, right, like Wobbuffet is here; whatever!" Made no sense. O_O

[Iecerint]

Jebus, when do you get the result from your cop ability?

? ^_^'''

Why are you being evasive? Or does this mean you don't understand my question?

I asked this question because given that you apparently receive the results close to immediately (since you have my alignment already), I doubt that there is a busdriver. The busdriver would have to send results prior to actions, which is really challenging to implement unless abilities are all implemented at the same time (e.g. during night). But since the abilities we've seen are largely instantaneous, I doubt a busdriver role exists in this game.

[Iecerint]

That's correct, dram. That is what I believe. Granted, I hadn't thought of the Jebus confirmation situation before now, so it's possible something I said earlier doesn't jive with that.

Doesn't that part sort of go without saying, though? Sir killed Haylen unless someone contradicts him -- be it FA or someone who's just kept his mouth shut. It's also possible that there are multiple scum factions, though I agree with Nika's comment that that may be unlikely due to the somewhat anti-town neutral survivor.

[Iecerint]

But you've already gotten your result on me, right? (When specifically did you get my result?) So the investigation result coming in on D2 must've just been because you sent the first one in so late.

It's weird that you didn't get it during N1. Maybe the Mod wanted to make sure you were going to survive the night before he bothered with it.

[Iecerint]

I think it's time for a prod/replacement on FA

. It's been over a week.

[Iecerint]

But the cat's dead.

[Iecerint]

I think Jebus was suspecting FA of busdriving before we knew about the normal/flying detail. As far as I can tell, the reason he's suspecting it is that he's skeptical that he got a guilty on you due to your being a vig.

[Iecerint]

Oh my.

[Iecerint]

I guess? We need to know whether FA's night action de-exonerates Sir.

[Iecerint]

DTM, is that a vague ability soft-claim, or you are saying that your ability has a doctor/jailer-like effect?

I'm not sure I understand the notion that one of MS and DTM is lying. For one thing, DTM hasn't really claimed his ability, so these claims that it's "overpowered" seem a little premature.

I don't understand the animosity toward Sir, either; Jebus-finds-killing-roles explains last night's outcome AFAIS. I think it's remote that Sir is scum. It's pretty much confirmed that he killed Haylen, unless a neutral faction messed with the outcome and isn't telling. I suppose it's possible that he's a souped-up SK, though I agree with Nika that the Neutral Survivor makes that kinda remote.

[Iecerint]

Jebus finds killing roles. Mystery solved!

Otherwise, you have to posit that scum intentionally killed scum, and in a circumstance where Sir didn't even particularly appear to need to be "cleared."

[Iecerint]

Oh, or it could be 2 scumgroups. We could have Team Aqua or whatever. You'd think we'd have Team Aqua and Team Magma in that case, though, and I think it's even unlikelier than an SK in a game this small that has a functionally anti-town Survivor. I'm not sure how Aqua and Magma are handled in the anime, though.

I was inspired to play through Pokemon Emerald, 's why I know about the other two teams.

[Iecerint]

Then you think that Sir killed his scumbuddy for no apparent reason during N1?

Jebus's cop role is probably nerfed in some way to account for all the weak cops roving about.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I never noticed that. That would explain our conundrum. (Which game generation is Team Galactic from?)

[Iecerint]

Oh. Well, then there are probably two scumteams, and, if so, Sir is probably Team Galactic. What Pokemon are associated with Team Galactic in the anime/game, if any?

[Iecerint]

Jebus never confirmed that he finds killing roles; he's said his role says he finds scum. That of course doesn't mean that that's what it actually does, though. I'd forgotten about the Miller aspect of MS's role, but an extra fakeguilty on MS wouldn't be out of the question. This also assumes that MS is telling the truth, which he may well not be (but on the basis of his claim AFAIS; I don't understand how DTH makes MS more likely to be lying than otherwise).

I don't like how Kise has ignored subsequent posts that make it clear I have largely abandoned said theory. I also don't like how he suspects me for doubting that Jebus's ability is inerrant in spite of Jebus finding me town and a GF already being killed.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: It looks like you do account for the possibility that MS is lying, so disregard that.

[Iecerint]

What Pokemon are associated with Team Galactic in the anime/game, if any?

I ask because Meowth is definitely associated with TR. Sir could be fakeclaiming Charmander, but I doubt he's fakeclaiming his element unless TG doesn't have any fire-type Pokemon. (I'm assuming that TG doesn't have Charmander in canon.)

I'm happy to vote for Sir having been shown the opening flavor suggesting a second scumgroup (especially given that the Pokemon in that flavor matches TG generation-wise), but first I'd like the above question answered and Grimmy to confirm no typo on the off-chance that it is one.

[Iecerint]

You've answered most of them already by way of the claim. You should probably read through D2 and develop an opinion on Sir.

[Iecerint]

MS can only Drain once the entire game IIRC. That's why I think he should probably Drain Jebus, and probably today. Can anyone see a reason for a better use of Drain?

[Iecerint]

If you Drain someone, do they lose their prior-available power? For example, if you Drain'd Jebus tomorrow, would he lose his ability to investigate that day?

[Iecerint]

OK, it sounds like my concerns have been addressed, so I'll

Unvote, Vote: Siroginous

on the assumptions that Jebus's cop read is correct and Sir killed Haylen because of the existence of two scum groups (matching the story flavor). This puts Sir at L-1.

[Iecerint]

Go town.

[Iecerint]

Sorta imba, innit? We didn't exactly have a mislynch. <_<

dram and kise were obvscum from D1, though.