Mini 809 ~ Mafia ViPod (Game Over!)

[Hero764]

It's Hero76

4

=/

You have no direct evidence that I said otherwise. ~Vi

Reading through the thread. I should be done in a day or so.

[Hero764]

Sorry guys, I haven't been reading as much as I would like. I'll try to be caught up this evening.

[Hero764]

Ok I'm caught up. I'll make a more substantial post later today but my current suspicions are:

X, E_k, and Juls.

Gotta go for now.

[Hero764]

Real sorry about yesterday. It was a combination of being busy/procrastinating. Same thing isn't going to happen today.

I'll explain my suspicions now(as I assume you all have been waiting for).

X:

First of all, I can't really explain it but his general existence in this game is giving me bad vibes. Like if I had been reading an already finished game and read the first post of the thread and knew who was scum, that person posts would stick out especially to me as being scummy, simply because I knew they were scum. This game isn't finished and obviously I can't know for sure of X's alignment, but his posts have given me those kinds of vibes.

Second, he's been a part of all of the days 1 and 2 town lynches, never a good sign. What makes it worse is that fact that his attacks against them, sucked.

Paperpenguin:

Another point I think that may be valid against PP is that he seems to know a fair amount of things about this game despite his really recent join date. This could be the result of a N0 talk with scumbuddies. Then again, it could be the result of research (but IMO, he doesn't look like a research kind of guy). Also odd is this post:

Ok, first off, what the hell could you be basing the 'research kind of guy' look off of? This statement is full of bs. He's trying to further justify his vote so that when PP flips town people can't go 'X voted for no reason!'

He doesn't really provide much solid reasoning for the PP vote, its all pretty ambiguous. I'm getting very bad vibes from his place on the PP lynch.

It gets better with Empking:

First he implies several times that he knows Empkings meta and even uses it as an attack on someone for voting Empking:

FL shouldn't have voted Empking that early, considering how Empking usually is

But then he goes on and votes Empking for...being Empking?

Likely. There usually are scum on town lynches, but it doesn't really become a good method of finding scum until 3 or 5 people's roles have been revealed. Right now I am thinking that Empking is scum, who was on the lynch, but there might be others. I think I might want to re-read Sotty sometime soon.

Vote: Empking.

=/

This is twice now that he's pushed easy lynches without actually providing solid reasoning(some of it even hypocritical). This is more than enough to warrant

vote: X

--------------

E_k:

Ok well, I liked E_k at first during her whole fiasco with VPB. I really stopped liking her when she defended Moriarity:

QFT? Really?

I didn't think moriarty's post was that bad. Moriarty basically said he's sucpicious of some other people besides pesco, but not sure they're more scummy yet.

image is putting words in moriarty's mouth that are WIFOM at best.

Also, I think image (and X) are being super harsh to moriarty for keeping a vote on pesco just because moriarty is not SURE pesco is the MOST scummy anymore. OBV moriarty still thinks pesco is scummy.

A slight waver in confidence doesn't seem like such a big deal.

Ugh. First of all, this accomplishes nothing for town(feel free to point them, but accomplishes three things for scum: 1. E_k looks good for defending a townie, 2. She gets to distance herself from a Xscum and 3. She gets to look like she's doing stuff so no one can question her. The fact that Moriarty was NK'd seems to suggest that it might have been a plan to make E_k look better. The fact that image's initial argument made perfect sense makes this post all the stranger.

Other things I don't like about her:

How did you go from being sure empking was scum and wanting him dead, to thinking he's probably a jester and maybe we shouldn't lynch him?

I really don't like how she's basically restating an argument already brought up 1(or 2?) times. This is blatant bandwagoning.

Also, I have no idea who image IS suspicious of. He doesn't seem to be looking for scum. If you're going to try to stop the lynch of the highest vote getter, you should have a better idea of who to lynch. Or at least some idea. image isn't having any ideas.

This came after a post where she agreed with an argument made against image. I'm reading this as her throwing some suspicion onto image to try and see if people will pick up and go for his lynch.

I still think we should lynch empking.

Yet before she said:

I would prefer him as a fallback lynch. Our battery power is going down pretty fast, so if we absolutely can't agree on some of the scummier people, then I say we go for empking. Otherwise, I think we have bigger fish to fry.

I don't really see what changed. Except for the fact that Emp stated suspicions of ek. OMGUS much?

FoS: elvis_knits

The whole empking wagon in general was terrible btw. I realize not everyone on that wagon can be scum though.

Other people who are suspicious:

tubby - He might be like Empking and CJMiller though, just a suck playstyle in general.
hascow - He's been active lurking and not really doing much. I understand that this is how(he claims, haven't checked his meta myself) he plays so it might not be much.

I would prefer an X lynch today, but e_k is doable. Anyone else I'm probably not going to vote for at this moment.

[Hero764]

Perhaps you're thinking of our last game together?

Maybe.

This is a strawman, and a bad one at that. He did not look like a research kind of guy from the offhandedness of most of his posts. He was just playing in the moment. Second, this was not my only comment against PP that explained my vote. Look at ISO 4-11.

Is there a 'good' kind of strawman? =P

I really don't see how offhandedness and wanting to do research have anything to do with each other. You can do research about the game and still play in the moment.

And I realize that it wasn't your only attack against PP, but none of your reasons were very clear or strong. Here's what I see:
-asking a loaded question
-claiming miller the wrong way
-knowing too much about the game

The first two reasons aren't really that bad, but I personally wouldn't push for someone's lynch over them. The fact that he felt the need to come up with a BS reason to support himself sends bad vibes everywhere.

First, I had an idea of what Empking's meta was (from references in MD), but I asked early on, before I made that comment. The answer that I got supported the idea that I had. Next, the key word in the first quote is "early." At that point, it was difficult to tell whether he was playing as his regular self or worse. Later in the game, he was much more scummy. And again, you cherry-pick your evidence. My second quote obviously doesn't explain my vote. Look at the rest of that post. Of course, there were some scummier things that he had done earlier in the day that FL, EK, and VPB all had pointed out before me. Hero, before you read through the game, did you look at Empking flipping town? Is it possible that that gave you some sort of bias that prevented you from seeing how scummy Empking actually was? He was

really

scummy.

Lastly, there's a good chance it's LYLO. Don't vote so quickly.

FoS: Hero764

.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like I was cherry picking.

Fact is, you were saying to someone else not to vote Empking because he's always like this(correct), but then you vote Empking for acting scummy. You've already acknowledged that he's

always

scummy though, so why vote? Don't go yelling 'policy lynch' because your reasons for voting for him were that he was scummy, not a bad player. I knew Empking had flipped town, yeah, but I knew before I even joined the game that Empking always played scummy, and that it was stupid to vote him for that.

And what changed from day 1 to day 2? Empking was acting the same as always to me.

Not sure what you mean about 'a good chance its lylo'? If you're referring to how there's probably 3 scum then I'm not really scared of a quicklynch. It would be a huge coincidence for all three to be on at the same time(I don't think I've ever seen a quick 3 scum bandwagon). The FoS is suspect though. What was scummy about my vote?

[Hero764]

Ok, Hero, I want to sum up your cases here into bullet points:

X

1) Bad vibes from you gut
2) He was on PP and Empking's lynch for what you feel to be bad reasons

EK

1) You think the one post you quoted has scum motivations
2) WIFOM that the Moriarty kill makes her look good, while making Image look bad
3) Bandwagoning
4) Possible hypocrisy on Emp wagon

Is this a fair summation of your points against both of your main suspects?

Close enough.

Also, what are your feelings on massclaim today? Should it happen? What do you think the order of claiming should be?

I dunno. I'm indifferent to it right now. What are the benefits of doing it(I've never been in a game with mass claiming)?

Hero, did you read the game all the way though or did you just do some iso reads?

I read it all the way through and then did iso reads on some people(mainly X and elvis).

[Hero764]

I've been in 10(including this one), but I replaced out of 3 of them, and some aren't completed yet.

[Hero764]

I find it utterly strange that you have never seen a mass claim before then.

That's great. You can check for yourself though, I'm not lying.

[Hero764]

It's a matter of time that he was putting into the game. He wasn't doing ISO re-reads or checking up on people's meta - he was clearly reacting to the new things that had been posted. I'm trying to be clear. But I'm not quite sure how this matters...back to the topic:

My points on PP were:
1. Parroting what VPB had said earlier and almost trying to pass it off as a new argument (114-5)
2. Asking a loaded question (116)
3. Speaking from the mafia mentality, "You have gained the attention of the mafia, and have set yourself for a kill." (114)
4. A roleclaim that did not match his actions; also that the claim is a convenient scum claim (221)
5. Having knowledge beyond what people with his join date usually have, because it could have been supplied by buddies

You got #2 and #5, and sort of got #4, although your phrasing could be taken the wrong way.

1. I don't see where you've mentioned this before now.
2. k
3. k
4. k.
5. This is the whole problem I have with you and PP. You tacked on a bullshit reason to further justify your case. It just doesn't look good at all.

These two quotes come from two different days and over a span of over two weeks and several game pages. Do you really think nothing could have changed for Elvis in that time? I feel like you put the two most contradictory quotes on Elvis you could find together in an attempt to make her look worse. I find that pretty scummy considering you didn't attempt to provide and perspective on her opinion and how it did or didn't change over time.

=/ Empking acted the same the entire time he was in the game, so no I don't see how something could have changed for Elvis. She never even mentioned something changing, so if something did there was no way I could know.

It wasn't a defense of moriarty so much as an attack on image. It does accomplish something for town because it points out image putting words in another player's mouth. To me, that is significant since it seems pretty scummy. You don't think that it's scummy to put words in player's mouths? You think there is no town motication for pointing it out?

Your points 1,2, and 3 are WIFOM based on you assuming I'm scum. Actually, all of that is really a made-up story of what my motivations might have been if I were scum. It's circular reasoning.

Moriarity can defend himself. Defending him implies that you know his alignment.

And you don't seem to understand what I was getting at with the points 1 2 and 3. I was pointing out how it would help you if you were scum, not saying that's why you did it.

I can't help it if I agree with a what some other people said in that instance. That is actually a good thing to find places where you agree, since we are trying to find a consensus. If my only contribution to the game was useless parotting, THAT would be scummy. But I have made plenty of my own arguments.

And bandwagoning is not bad if you have a reason for doing so.

Bandwagoning probably wasn't the right word. I guess parroting would be better. I don't care that you agree Juls was scummy for reasons brought up by others(I thought Juls would flip scum too). You were just using someone else's argument again against her, which makes it seem like you were trying to make it seem like you were actively scumhunting while you actually weren't.

I had been suspicious of image for a while, demonstrated by the part that you yourself have quoted, where I attacked him for putting words in moriarty's mouth. So I don't see why you would think my suspicion on image was somehow false or manufactured.

Again you completely misunderstand my point. I think you're scum so obviously any suspicions would be false(unless you're bussing). The fact that you expressed suspicions of him earlier have nothing to do with this. You're trying to make image look more suspicious that people currently though to see how plausible a bandwagon would be(that's what it looked like).

The second quote was on day 1 when there were other stronger leads. Lots of things changed and happened to make me think empking was the best lynch at the time of the first quote. One thing that did influence my suspicions WAS that he said he was suspicious of me "for reasons he couldn't recall." It wasn't just that he was suspcious of me... it was that he didn't have any reason. I don't really think that's OMGUS, since it's his reasoning (or lack thereof) that I object to.

You find this strange coming from Empking why?

I don't understand how it was terrible. Empking was not playing like town. I don't understand anyone thinking he was playing like town.

Empking was playing like Empking. Believe or not, players like him who drop scumtells are actually dropping null tells, and the fact that most of you in here knew of his meta and still called him scummy for it is the terrible part.

two players who I believe are likely town.

What? What makes you think that?

The cases seem very contrived if you ask me, and hardly substantial enough to call someone scum. They are looking at very specific incidents that are removed from any sort of context and are backed by either 'gut' or WIFOM speculation about NKs.

Who do you think is scum then? IIRC all of your suspicions have flipped town.

I am very much ok with mass claim starting with Hero.

Sure, but I'd like X or e_k to go next.

I am Phil Collins, vanilla townie.

[Hero764]

Also X, you didn't answer this:

What was scummy about my vote?

[Hero764]

Both have actively been scum hunting with original lines of thought for the most part. I haven't seen any behavior from either that struck me as scummy, and if that is the case at this point in the game it makes me feel they are likely town.

Actively scumhunting isn't necessarily a town tell, you know.

Well you have seemed awfully suspicious since you replaced in this game. And I'm not to sure what you are getting at with the "all of your suspicions have flipped town" business. Who are you referring to? Juls, who had acted very scummy and I started the case on?

If you want to follow that line of thought, we only have to look at your predecessor being on both the PP and Empking lynch, and as far as the Juls lynch, you had her listed as one of your top suspects....so what exactly is your point? Seems to me that if we are going be revisionist and talk about people going after dead town, you are in it just as much as anybody else.

That was more of just me talking to myself about how you don't really suspect anyone at this point and that those you do have already been lynched(and flipped town). I'm not going after you and I don't find you particularly suspicious(outside of the "likely town" comment, which I think is a stupid way of looking at people and implies that you might be interested in defending them).

And I meant besides me, who do you find scummy? We've still got a full scum team out there.

[Hero764]

Nice misrep.

Thanks dude.

Right now, I am feeling more confident in my town reads than my scum reads, which almost guarantees to me that the scum can be found in Hero764, hasdgfas, tubby216, and Sotty7.

Out of those I would rank my top two as being you and hascow. Third is more of a toss up because I don't have much of a read on tubby (though I felt Pesco was scummy) and Sotty, who has seems somewhat town, but feels a little in the background on purpose to me.

What do you find suspicious about has and tubby? Where do you think Sotty has been in the background on purpose?

Town reads are a very effective way to parse down your pool of suspects. It has worked very successfully for me during my time playing mafia.

Yeah but all you've done is said "These two people are probably town, so the other four are probably scum". That doesn't really help, and it doesn't explain why the other four are more likely to be scum.

Also, if we are going forward with the popcorn claiming, you would need to affirmatively pick who should go next out of X or EK.

Let's go with X.

[Hero764]

EBWOP:

[quote=Hero764"]
Yeah but all you've done is said "These two people are probably town, so the other four probably contain scum". That doesn't really help, and it doesn't explain why the other four are more likely to be scum. [/quote]

Fixed to make sense.

[Hero764]

You can look at my argument with Pesco on D1 for tubby's predecessor. Before PP's miller claim I was most definitely preferring a Pesco lynch. Tubby then replaced and said very little. I didn't go after him at that point because I preferred the Juls lynch and he was supportive of it.

Could you list your reasons for suspecting Pesco? Do you think tubby is independently scummy of him?

This is like putting the cart before the horse isn't it? I think your scum so your suspicions must be false. Seems backwards to me.

=/

I never said her suspicions must be false, nice misrep though. I said I thought that she wasn't really suspicious of him because maybe she was scum. I think it was fairly obvious I was talking in the context of ME during that quote.

I did have a feeling about X, but some of that is dampened a little with Hero attacking him. They could be buddies, but if that was the case he probably would have put a vote on Elvis rather than X.

? What does me attacking X have to do with anything?

VP seems to be actively scum hunting and asking questions. My only wonder is why he is still alive, but that is just chock full of WIFOM. I'm thinking likely town. I really want to hear more from Hascow when he gets back to the thread.

Ok, this is the second time now. What the hell about actively scum hunting and asking questions makes someone more likely to be town? Don't scum have just as much incentive to do that?

Hero, I strongly disagree with you over the Empking issue. He did get worse, and as FL said, "Sometimes scummy playstyles actually do roll scum. You have to go for it sometimes."

I'm not saying we should've left him alive, I probably would've supported a policy lynch of him. But players like him simply aren't scummy when they always play scummy. That's just how it is.

Show me how he got worse.

Also, what exactly is a "supersaint?" I've never seen that role before.

hasdgfas: Do you think that tubby is acting like this simply because he plays the game poorly? IE. like Empking.

This is my simplified version. I tried to be fair when shortening Hero's points, but I may have missed something or some nuance of his meaning, so I am leaving his original words above so that anyone can refer to it and get his full meaning.

That's fine and everything, but why do you feel the need to simplify it in the first place? You can't reply directly to my quotes?

1)
Hero: You defended moriarty, which has no town motivations, and lots of scummy ones.
Elvis: I saw a bullshit attack on moriarty, so I pointed out what was wrong with the attack. It was not dependent on moriarty's allignment. Pointing out bad attacks is a way to find scum, which is indeed pro-town.

2)
Hero: You copied people's reasons for voting juls.
Elvis: I agreed with others in that instance, but I don't have a pattern of doing that. I think for myself, but sometimes agree with people. I don't see how that is scummy.

3)
Hero: Your suspicions on image were testing the waters to see if a bandwagon would be viable.
Elvis: I don't understand this one. Why do you think I was trying to make image look more suspicious and testing the viability of a bandwagon, rather than, expressing my feelings on the guy and scum hunting? It seems like you're just ascribing motivations to me all the time which are not supported by the events, and are WIFOM at best.

4)
Elvis: Empking suspected me with "no reason."
Hero: Why does that bother you?
Elvis: People have to have reasons behind their suspicions. If they don't they are likely manufactured suspicions. And if people don't explain their reasons, you can't judge their allignment. That's handicapping the town. It's scummy.

5)
Hero: Empking was playing scummy, but he's always like that, and you should know that.
Elvis: I do know empking's meta, but I also know he actually is scum part of the time. So I try to question him to the best of my ability, and judge his allignment even though I know it's hard because of his playstyle. I am not willing to give him a free pass in every game. That would be stupid. I don't want to lynch him every game either, but I have to err on the side of caution, especially since he's not helpful anyway even when he's town.

1) Ok, everyone raise your hand if you think image's attack was bullshit. It looked legitimate to me.

2) Again you're missing the point. It isn't the fact that you agreed with them, its the fact that you just restated their reason. You didn't mention agreeing with the reason, you were just asking her something that had already been asked. Like you were trying to look like you were scum hunting but were just doing the work others had done.

3) Uhm, I was under the impression ascribing motivations to people is the whole point of scumhunting. Correct me if I'm wrong. All I said was it looked like you could be doing that, and that the post rubbed me the wrong way.

4) There's a difference between anti-town and scummy. I'll ask again: Why do you think that sort of thing was strange coming from Empking, of all people?

5) I never said anything about giving him a free pass, but you can't try to paint him as scummy,

especially when you've already acknowledged that he always acts scummy earlier in the game

. If you had suggested a policy lynch or something then I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

[Hero764]

It was like you read the quote in question with the preconceived notion that Elvis was scum and responded accordingly. It should be the other way round. That's my issue.

Well, again, that quote was in the context of me. Since in my mind I think e_k is likely scum, I was also be thinking that her suspicions would be false. She asked why I would think that, and I told her(the question didn't really have anything to do with the point though). I'm not saying that's the only way it can be, you're trying to turn my statement into something its not.

Sure, but scum over time are more likely to make slips on top of their fake scum hunting and should be easier to pick up on. I don't get that vibe off VP, the only some what questionable behavior of his happened right at the start of the game with hascow's question about night actions.

But you get that vibe from me I take it? What about my scum hunting makes it scummier than VPB's scumhunting? The fact that you disagree with my suspicions?

I'm by no means clearing VP and will watch him like I am very one else, but I'm also not going to suspect him for actively scum hunting either.

"I think he's likely town" sounds like you are pretty much clearing him. Just saying.

Also. Has, VPB, X, tubby: What do you think about image's attack on Moriarty day 1? Bullshit or no?

Has you also missed my question:

hasdgfas: Do you think that tubby is acting like this simply because he plays the game poorly? IE. like Empking.

[Hero764]

Tubby answer my questions please.

[Hero764]

Well that basically solidifies my town read on EK, and should make the rest of this game a slam dunk with the pool of potential suspects so small.

How does that solidify anything?

Hero, looking back I see you never claimed your flavor. Could you do that please.

Not sure how it matters but ok. My song is "In the air tonight".

Sotty: If you got no result with Juls why were you attacking her?

[Hero764]

Because if I have a town read on somebody and then they claim to be confirming people as town (one of which is me, who I know is town), that is a pretty good indicator that I was correct and EK is likely who she says she is. Scum do not want anyone to be confirmed town at this point in the game because it limits the pool of mislynches that are possible. Speaking of which, you seem to be doing a lot of that.

1) You aren't confirmed town until she is confirmed hider. She hasn't effectively confirmed anything. 2) Scum have just as much interest in not making obvious connections with both of their partners as they do in not confirming townies.

Could you elaborate on the last sentence?

I'm all for an X lynch. I will hammer if everyone wants me to(rather than tubby), although obviously I would prefer for tubby to do it. I like your point about the song title he gave, but the part about the Judaism thing just reeks of bullshitting. Sends bad vibes.

[Hero764]

What I was saying with that last sentence is that you seem to be fighting me a bit today when I suggest that I think someone is town. You're quick to pop in and go 'well, hey, not necessarily'. You could simply be cautious town (though your quick casting of a vote today doesn't indicate that), but you could also be scum who, like I said, is trying to keep his options wide open.

Fair enough. I just don't like how you dismiss someone as town for pretty odd reasons(actively scumhunting, which scum have just as much reason to do as town).

If we're gonna have me hammer X then I better

unvote

. I'll hammer as soon as he gets to 2 votes(again unless you guys want tubby to).

[Hero764]

Are you saying there aren't 3 scum?

vote: cow

And if we lynch the supersaint, you should hammer, cow.

*facepalm* You're the one saying there aren't 2 scum.

[Hero764]

We have a Miller now? Did I miss something? Otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Hero764]

Sorry I was confused for a moment since I thought she was referring to the living players for some reason.

Anyways e_k that seems like a lot of assumptions to be making and being completely assured of a 3 person scum team from. You really think that's grounds enough to vote for someone?

[Hero764]

I was trying to test my theory and get reactions to judge if I was correct.

Does this sound like bullshit to anyone else? I'm not saying she has to be lying but come on...

What did you find out from the reactions? What kind of info were you expecting to get?

And e_k, VPB: You mentioned tubby dismissing the possibility of a cult? I don't see where he did this.

Anyways, let's do this.

Vote: X

[Hero764]

Haha 2 for 2 baby! Feels good to be right.

Town didn't really have a chance once I finally started playing the game(the only chance was if has could jail himself). I'm kicking myself for that right now because if I had explained my suspicions on day 3 we might have lynched one of them(no one was listening to me anyways though ).

Anyways very cool game Vi, my first with cults. Imo you should have switched one of the cults with a Serial Killer and made the remaining cult with no kill(and maybe one more recruit, I dunno). I was pretty sure that since the game wasn't over yet it was just a serial killer left. Its pretty convenient how each night there only ended up being one kill, guess we got lucky on that one. Town really would have been at a disadvantage if they didn't happen though.

Props to Juls for getting VPB. I was starting to suspect myself towards the end of the day(he looked like he was

trying

to connect himself to e_k), but when I was reading through Jul's case initially I admit I thought it was as stupid as everyone else did.

Gratz to VPB and Sotty, you already had the game won by day 4.