Mini 817: Chosen (Game Over!)

[Special Ed]

confirming

I've read. This is a very different style of game (and much smaller) than I am used to playing, but I'm hopeful I can adapt.

I'm comfortable with Mitey's statements. Knowing my alignment, I, of course, view with suspicion the case built against me. However, I'd much rather be voting for Zorblag than Papa Vito because Zorblag strikes me as a player who is smart enough to finger a Townie in a way that another player might have seen him finger a fellow Scum in previous games.

I'm now going to try to read a few of the games that have been mentioned here.

[Special Ed]

Welcome to the game Special Ed. Out of curiosity, is it mostly MiteyMouse's code idea (which I'll talk about next) and the impression that I'm smart that are your reasons for suspecting me? Does it matter that I'm pretty sure that the only player now in the game who has played with me when I was scum is MiteyMouse?

Yes, your solid grasp of the game and Mitey's suspicion are part of what made me suspect you. The fact that you seem to be pushing the discussion toward Raivann and me being Scum is another given that I know you're half wrong (This only works for me, as you'll have no idea)

I'm usually a bit wary when experienced players try to guide Town too much. I know that sounds odd as that's exactly what I do on the sites where I'm considered experienced. That said, tehre's obviously a great deal of difference in play style between this site and where I usually play. Where I play, random votes are rare and frowned upon, not giving a reason for a vote in the same post in which you vote is also a big no-no. These things might explain why when people immigrate from here to there, they tend to get lynched early and often.

As I think on it, a great deal of my suspicion was OMGUS. To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

I need more time to review quite a bit of data. Do we get regular vote counts here?

Herodotus, do you have any experience with Papa Zito? Same question in reverse to Papa Zito.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Zorblag...should this worry me? Let me explain to everyone else here what I mean. In Newbie 749, the Troll was replaced in and he was Scum with Albert B Rampage. He asked almost the same question to Albert who, was his Scum partner. He explained it in his post game analysis as a way to get a message to Albert. I'm not ready to vote for you yet Zorblag but, it is noted!

Not really. In that game I needed to get information from Albert B. Ramage about whether he wanted me to bus him on day two of a game in which he looked somewhat suspicious so I used that method of getting information from him as it was a simple way for him to lie which would be a reason to go through with the bus or tell the truth which would be a reason to hold back. Unless you're worried that I'm scum trying to decide whether or not I need to bus a Herodotus or Papa Zito partner on day one I don't think it should be that troubling. I do ask questions that I can verify in most of my games regardless of alignment.

It seems quite plausible that you may have been trying to convey a message to a Scum buddy in this manner as well. Either who you'd like to see lynched or who you might think is the Chosen One. It does strike me as you sending a message. Or else why ask one specific person about one other specific person?

We've had answers from most about who they would have exluded and why:

afatchic

:

TDC

,

MiteyMouse

,

nadroj15

,

Papa Zito

. (TDC to avoid them being the chosen, the others could have been chosen at random)

AshMC1984

: Would randomly generate to avoid WIFOM

BloodCovenent

:

ClockworkRuse

,

MiteyMouse

,

Nuwen

,

Papa Zito

(Papa Zito based on play, Nuwen based on amount of experience and the others also on experience to a lesser degree?)

Herodotus

:

afatchic

,

MiteyMouse

,

Nuwen

,

TDC

(based on impressions of experience and skill)

MiteyMouse

:

Papa Zito

,

afatchic

,

BloodCovenent

,

TDC

(Papa Zito for skill, afatchic for recognition, the others at random)

Papa Zito

:

afatchic

,

Nuwen

,

TDC

,

MiteyMouse

(Nuwen and TDC for being veteran players, afatchic for being active and drawing at least one night kill, MiteyMouse as others see her as town in general)

Raivann

:

Zorblag

,

afatchic

,

Nuwen

,

Papa Zito

(random as he doesn't know the players in the game)

TDC

:

Papa Zito

,

BloodCovenent

,

TDC

and one of

Nuwen

or

nadroj15

(

MiteyMouse

would be the alternate choice if that list contains two scum; Papa Zito, BloodCovenent and TDC were chosen based on lack of getting lynched as town. nadroj15 as a wildcard because of a very limited sample of games)

Zorblag

:

MiteyMouse

,

Nuwen

,

Papa Zito

and

TDC

(overall townie feel for their typical play;

BloodCovenent

would be the next choice based on his record of being lynched as town)

If I've got those wrong for anyone please do correct me.

It's noteworthy that although some said they were picking randomly their lists were still usually similar to those that were chosen for a reason. Of the lists and reasons given I'm most suspicious of AshMC1984 (as I said, scum would have no reason to want to eliminate WIFOM) and Raivann for giving a "random" list that looks so similar to the other lists people have given previously. That's a bit too neat given the other suspicions that people are voicing at this point but it absolutely helps the town now to try to participate in this process now to force the scum to try harder with their justifications so that we can look at them for flaws later if they flip.

Of the rest I think that afatchic gets some credit for giving his list first but I'd like to have seen more reasons from both him and MiteyMouse.

Here are the number of exclusions by game spot (this counts the choices of ClockworkRuse and Zorblag though I don't think that ClockworkRuse would have been one of the choices and I know that I wasn't as I joined the game after it had started):

Herodotus: 0
Special Ed: 0
BloodCovenent: 3
Zorblag: 3
afatchic: 5
MiteyMouse: 6
Raivann: 6
Papa Zito: 6
TDC: 6

I'm counting everyone that made the top four or tied for a spot or was given as an alternate. I didn't expect afatchic to show up as often and, frankly, I expected nadroj15 to show up less as someone with only one full game played on site. Other than that it's not too surprising.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I can see the benefit for Ash to have said he'd pick randomly. No matter how the Scum pick, there will be WiFoM for the Town. Scum picking randomly doesn't end the WiFoM since Town will have no knowledge. Actually picking for the Scum might be a little WiFoMy as they'll have to think who the Town might think they picked and then maybe pick someone else though the Town might think that..etc.....So being random eliminates the WiFoM for the Scum and does nothing for the Town. Though, I don't really understand why one would do it that way. Faced with a choice to make, I readily refuse to be random about it.

Also, your list making does seem to detract from Scum hunting. It's really been a large portion of the focus of this game. Now, maybe there are interesting comments in how people chose to talk about this or avoid it, but I really don't think it should guide our scum hunting. There's a 22% chance of anyone being Scum no matter where on the list they fall. I'd hate to exclude or include people simply because of a list created by a group that includes our Scum.

[Special Ed]

As I said earlier, I'm pretty sure based on the role PMs we can see in post 1 the mafia already knows who the chosen is. Beyond that, if I'm trying to send a coded message with this question then I've got to be doing it either using a system that the scum came up with before I joined the game (unless there's day talk allowed in which case sending messages in game is ludicrous) or it has to be simple enough in the available context to get an unambiguous point across like the situation MiteyMouse was referring to.

Yeah, I hadn't gotten back to that. I see what you mean now. I did read the Day in about 45 minutes, so my first impressions were definitely my first impressions.

I do like that you're encouraging talk.

[Special Ed]

As I think on it, a great deal of my suspicion was OMGUS. To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

That's interesting. I don't recall particularly pushing for a Nuwen/AshMC1984 scum pair before you'd made your first post (I don't think that I have now though I've said more about it since). The reasons that I gave for voting Raivann or Nuwen (whoever was playing it at the time) involved Nuwen's vote for Archon when she should know better given the setup. I'm pretty sure that OMGUS as a reason to want to vote me in particular isn't that convincing to me.

You are correct. It was Herodotus who did that in a conversation with you. I'm in the process of doing a more thorough re-read, but I am alive in 3 other games on other sites at the moment, but fortunately 2 of them just went into Night.

[Special Ed]

@Special Ed:
What would your list of four players to exclude from being the Chosen be (assuming the list here is what the scum were looking at?)

Honestly, I would have deferred to my scum buddy to make the list. I'm only familiar with Mitey from other sites, and I'm completely unfamiliar with this site.

Barring that, I would have picked 4 people whimsically but not picked Mitey, feeling that I might be able to use my knowledge of her game play to influence people to vote for her at some point.

But I'm not sure that's important at all because I couldn't have aprticipated in creating the list.

[Special Ed]

Hmm, actually, in an attempt to put 2 and 2 and 3 together to make sure I get 7, Special Ed, how did you learn about the opening in this game? Who in the game do you have previous experience with? I have reason to think that you must be familiar with hohum from another context (the other place(s) you play mafia springs to mind) and I wonder if you don't know MiteyMouse from somewhere as well. It doesn't help me decide if you're scum but it helps me get my bearings with you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I apologize. I'm quite familiar with mitey from games on Facebook, Straight Dope, Giraffe, and Idlemafia, and Did you play in that game on Domebo too, Mitey?

[Special Ed]

Hmm, actually, in an attempt to put 2 and 2 and 3 together to make sure I get 7, Special Ed, how did you learn about the opening in this game? Who in the game do you have previous experience with? I have reason to think that you must be familiar with hohum from another context (the other place(s) you play mafia springs to mind) and I wonder if you don't know MiteyMouse from somewhere as well. It doesn't help me decide if you're scum but it helps me get my bearings with you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

And I don't think I know hohum, Mitey would have mentioned it to me if I did. She sent me a private message on Facebook alerting me. I would recommend a few of those sites for playing, but not facebook. It's like mafia for those with a junior high mentality.

[Special Ed]

Knowing my alignment, I, of course, view with suspicion the case built against me.

To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

If you had replaced another player, and that player was town, the second quote seems to imply that you would have expected that Ash was scum. Why do you view the case on you/Ash with suspicion if you apparently would have agreed with it as a townie without access to Ash's role PM? Do you have more information that would suggest that the case on you would more likely be pursued by the scum rather than a townie with the same impression of Ash's play? Specifically, are you the Chosen?

You are correct. If I subbed in as someone else, I would probably be buying into the Ash is Scum theory. As I know Ash was not Scum, I'm not buying it. My initial reaction was to suspect the case against Ash/me. I've already admitted it was a bit OMGUSish. (Your quote started right after I said that in fact. It might look different as

As I think on it, a great deal of my suspicion was OMGUS. To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

My PM stated that it was possible that I was the Chosen One, but I don't know if I am.

[Special Ed]

So this game is a simple majority vote to lynch right now. Is there a defined point when deadlines are imposed? If a deadline isn't approaching, then a vote for anyone aside from Raivann is meaningless from me right now. And a vote for Raivann puts her(??I think??) at Hammer -1

I have to admit, this site is full of very odd strategies to me. I'm getting the most pings from Zorblag and Herodotus, but I think that;s because the are contributing greatly and seem to be trying to lead the Town toward a decision. In itself, that's a null tell.

Also at this point, unless Rainvann is a Scum, it's obviously in Scum's best interest to just act as they do when Town. And even if she is Scum, a bus isn't out of the question in a game so small without Town power roles.

What I would like, at this point, if it's not too much trouble, is a couple of sentences from everyone. First describing your experience with Mafia on this site and i total, as well as some general impressions on how Day 1 usually goes here.

[Special Ed]

OK, so we might get a deadline and a very quick one at that. And the consequence doesn't look very good.

I know I might seem pushy, but I'd be happy if ya'll would humor me. Does anyone want to summarize the cases against those who have votes?

[Special Ed]

I'm having difficulty. Sometimes when I hit quote, it takes me back to the forum main page. Sometimes I actually get to post.

Is Big Bear a sock for Blood Covenant?

[Special Ed]

Basically everyone has selected the above three, so I really don't see how this could've happened if it didn't make sense.

Could the Scum have listed their choices and gone near the end?

This is when a randomly generated list is a good idea, to set an order to declare something.

[Special Ed]

Basically everyone has selected the above three, so I really don't see how this could've happened if it didn't make sense.

Could the Scum have listed their choices and gone near the end?

This is when a randomly generated list is a good idea, to set an order to declare something.

NETA, and by going near the end, tried to blend in with everyone else.

[Special Ed]

We've got a deadline now. It's a week away so there's plenty of time left. I think it should be clear to everyone that it's better for us to lynch someone before we reach it but just in case, here's the reason. If we can be pretty sure we won't hit the chosen today then any lynch we choose is better than a random lynch which we know won't hit scum but might be the chosen one. If things go well then we'll hit scum but even if we're wrong we're in better shape with the information from the votes than we would be otherwise.

Troll, you're starting to worry me a bit.

If you remove the Chosen mechanic from the equation, this game becomes a standard 7 vanilla vs. 2 vanilla scum setup. All the Chosen does is remove a couple of mafia win conditions, i.e. 2 scum vs. Chosen or 1 scum vs. Chosen.

For some reason you seem to be subtly pushing the idea that a Chosen lynch would be extremely detrimental to the town. This is simply not true; it just turns the game into a standard one. Saying things like a random lynch "won't hit scum but might hit the Chosen one" is a scare tactic. And it's also factually incorrect: a random lynch is twice as likely to hit scum as it is to hit the Chosen.

Getting back to my worry - you've spent an inordinate amount of time looking at mechanics and not scumhunting. I agree there's value in the Chosen lists that we generated, but I think there's less value there than if we were playing as if the Chosen mechanic didn't exist. Which, incidentally, is what I would propose we do so that this doesn't turn into more of a distraction than it already has.

Ignoring the Chosen issue entirely, can you please give a list of who you feel are most scummy at the moment? TIA.

catching up, but is the random lynch drawn from Townies only So it has a 1.7 chance of hitting Chosen and 0 chance of hitting Scum. I apologize if this point has been raised already.

I assume this board has a multiquote function. I should try to figure it out.

[Special Ed]

If you mean what scum tells I've gotten including the possibility of the chosen my list would be Riavann (Nuwen), AshMC1984 (though not particularly Special Ed) and afatchic.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

HOw could Ash be Scum or Chosen but I'm less so?

[Special Ed]

My vote for Papa is due to both him cuddling and the idea that he is less likely to be the chosen. More than that it is the idea that you he and Zorblag are switching codes back and forth about Herodotus.

Do you not think it was possible that Zorb was passing a message about Papa to Herod?

Can anyone give me isight into why sometimes the quote button works and sometimes it doesn't?

[Special Ed]

I think I'm harboring a suspicion of Mitey. It might be just the difference in play though between here and other sites. But her style is remarkably different. Or maybe as she gains experience she's learning that she doesn't have to post all the time and respond to everything.

Still, the jumping to a quick vote for the 'passing a code' which I'll agree may be plausible, but still isn't strong, coupled with a real lack of insight and ivestigation from her is unusual.

[Special Ed]

Special Ed, your description of what you're expecting from Mitey Mouse is surprising to me based on the two games I've played with her here (Newbie Game 749 and Newbie Game 791.) Could you link me any games where she did post all the time and respond to everything?

If you go to her wiki (not on this site, the one devoted to the sites I frequent), and focus on the Facebook games, especially Hamlet, Superhero, and Labyrinth. You'll see she posts frequently and takes a leading role.

I do have to warn you the Facebook games are set up oddly. There is one huge discussion board with threads for each Day and each Night of all the games jumbled together.

As I checked, I realized that she's not as outspoken or as frequent on the other sites idlemafia, giraffe. I may have been colored by the fact that I notice her more when she's outspoken. (She was Scum in our most recently complete game, The Princess Bride.

I suppose maybe it's a gameplay issue. The games on Facebook are of poor quality played by people who have no real inclination to play seriously or improve their games. The other sites are filled with veterans and people who play seriously.

(As an aside, I encourage you to check on the games on those sites. I think you'll find it different. The strategies seem to be different and the games seem a little more friendly. The NIghts especially when we have a thread to mostly fluff in)

[Special Ed]

As for the quote button, Herodotus's answer is as good as anything I could give. I always quote by hand so it doesn't come up for me.

I figured it out. It doesn't let me quote when I'm not logged in

I guess I didn't figure that my cookies weren't keeping me logged in

[Special Ed]

What is MiteyMouse's username for the facebook games? Is it still MiteyMouse? I'm looking through the Superhero game and not finding her at all thus far.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

oh, sorry, It's Mandi. I hope she doesn't mind me giving that information up, but I suppose she references it enough on the mafia sites that it's OK. I'm Andy if that interests you at all. and my wiki is here

[Special Ed]

Hmm, I've now read through both Hamlet and Superheroes (well, skimmed and looked at what MiteyMouse contributed anyhow.) I think that there is a difference in contribution in those games from what I've seen here but that it seems to be in the end game. For both games (one as scum and one as town) the contribution the first couple days was much more in line with what I've seen here. Any leading of the town in both cases came towards the latter half of the games and I would not describe early game posting in either case as frequent or addressing everything that came up.

I wonder if Special Ed would care to comment on that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I'd love to. Your opinion varies greatly from mine. She's a leader on facebook and a person people turn to. She involves herself in most discussions of strategy and often pushes people to follow her strategy. In the most recent completed game, Labyrinth (I didn't play) She came up with a tactic to try to form a committee of most trusted people to lead the Town and lynch from the others. As I recall, she was eventually lynched but flipped Town.

I do have to admit though, that she is quieter on the sites with the more experienced players.

you skimmed the facebook games? Isn't that annoying? so many pages and no search function.

[Special Ed]

Yes, it was annoying which is why I only did it for two games; one scum and one town.

I didn't look at Labyrinth but what you're describing there does not sound like what I saw in the other two games. I think it was Superheroes where she largely lurked through the first 4 or 5 days and was only active in the 6th (and was then lynched right away in the 7th.) Hamlet she did start to take a more active role in the 3rd or 4th day but that seemed to be because she was a vig that got cop information from someone else or some such crazy dynamic. She was almost obligated to help direct the town with that role. The first couple days she wasn't any more active than she has been here so far as I saw.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Well, our opinions vary. In any case, It's not enough to lead me to vote for her, as I've seen this less active style of play from her as both Scum and Town as well.

[Special Ed]

vote: Raivann

I'm suspicious of everyone, but I am willing to buy into Zorblag's case at this point. I've only skimmed some of the game mentioned here. This type of metagamey analysis (which I myself have engaged in in this game) always makes me feel a little dirty. The fact that Nuwen had done such analysis so early in the game does imply that he

might

have done it in researching who would be the Chosen.

It's as good a case as any we have at this point, and we do need to make sure we lynch and attempt to lynch a Scum/non-Chosen rather than leave to to a random Townie who may be the Chosen.

[Special Ed]

I think ekiM made a good choice by killing ABR -- I'm almost positive that if ABR was left alive during Day 4, he likely would have self-hammered since I think he pretty much concluded that he wasn't the Chosen One since nobody really attacked him despite doing some fairly questionable stuff. It didn't lead to a scum win in the long run, but at least it prolonged the game and still gave scum a chance to win.

Remember that in endgame if you're sure you're not the chosen a self hammer is actually good for the town. This is very non-standard and normally town should never hammer in LyLo. Remember that this game is fundamentally different when making your choices.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Of course, now this will be less useful as it wouldn't be difficult for the Scum to avoid such a scenario

[Special Ed]

I'm not sure how scum could avoid someone deciding that they're not the chosen in a LyLo situation. They get to act however they want but they don't get to choose what conclusions others come to.

If someone is going out of their way to attack everyone then that'll be a better candidate than normal for scum in this game. That on it's own should make it harder for scum to avoid the sort of situation that Albert B. Rampage was in.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

No, I meant that with 2 Scum in endgame, one could go after each Town, thereby eliminating that Town advantage. just waiting for the hammer opportunity.

[Special Ed]

I'm not certain that Mitey would be so bold as to off the person voting for her.

But, then again, it's a healthy dose of WiFoM.

[Special Ed]

I'm not certain that Mitey would be so bold as to off the person voting for her.

But, then again, it's a healthy dose of WiFoM.

BloodCovenant was replaced, not nightkilled. I suppose the fact that you didn't know that means you must be town.

Oh, yeah, my mistake.

So, yes, I'm either Town or tricksy Scum.

[Special Ed]

@Zorblag: Can you confirm that this is how you would order who you think is the chosen? Herod, Zorb, afat, Dry, Special, Papa, and Mitey?

@Dry, re: Special So you're case against me is that I defer that my logic will be different than your because I have knowledge that you don't? It's common where I play to lay out both cases, the case I know and the case you'd be aware of. It can be helpful after the death of the player making the comments. And, you'll notice that my references were in rethinking my point of view after subbing in. As I read the game (before getting my PM) I actually came to the conclusion that I was most likely going to be Scum. I wasn't. So, my initial reaction was to look at who was building the case against me. That led to my initial posts being filled with OMGUS content. I felt it necessary to mention that as I was questioned on my initial posts in the game. I did have to backtrack considerably when the cloud of OMGUS dissipated.

@Dry, re:Zorblag, your suspicion on him sounds similar to the suspicion I had immediately after subbing. He does seem to dominate the game, but do you honestly think he would have been pushing early and hard for a lynch of his scumbuddy? There was plenty of opportunity to change that opinion, but he was steadfast. Yes, he's pushy but pushy != scum.

[Special Ed]

I agree with the stance on Mitey, but I do not want to put us within reach of a hammer without having heard from everyone, and without giving Mitey a chance to rebut.

[Special Ed]

Special Ed...oh Ed...first off...*kick*..I feel better.
Ok...knowing Ed, I didn't think too much of him saying that he was Town, however, he really does say it a lot doesn't he? He also dropped the hammer on Raivann which is ok since he was a Scum but, it really cut down on our Day 1 talk time...by almost a full week. Now, Ed knows that talk time is good for Town. Why drop the hammer so soon Ed?
Day 2 is a bit funny for me...you have tried 2 different ways to go after me here Ed...that's after bring up my playstyle differences. You're grasping hard to get me killed...why is that?

Yeah, I hate those Day 1's that are only two and a half weeks long. It really limits what we can say.

And, maybe I want you lynched because I think you're Scum?

[Special Ed]

@Herodotus: Oops, can't believe I missed that >.<

@Ed: Okay if that's how you normally play it's null. Can you provide some links to games where this style is used? The reason "I'm town so you're wrong" is scummy to me is because it's basically the same as "you'll be sorry you lynched me when I flip town." It's an appeal to emotion in my view.

Allow me to quote the phrases that I think are in question:
From my second post of the game

Knowing my alignment, I, of course, view with suspicion the case built against me.

That was on initially entering the game. Perhaps it's not how you play here, but I had one piece of information: my alignment. I knew, therefore, that certain statements were incorrect. That lead me, through my initial bout of OMGUS to suspect the cases against me.

From my fourth post:

As I think on it, a great deal of my suspicion was OMGUS. To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

I've obviously seen the flaw in my initial approach.

Here's my entire 8th post, where I only mention being Town, as I was asked to respond to the issue.

Knowing my alignment, I, of course, view with suspicion the case built against me.

To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

If you had replaced another player, and that player was town, the second quote seems to imply that you would have expected that Ash was scum. Why do you view the case on you/Ash with suspicion if you apparently would have agreed with it as a townie without access to Ash's role PM? Do you have more information that would suggest that the case on you would more likely be pursued by the scum rather than a townie with the same impression of Ash's play? Specifically, are you the Chosen?

You are correct. If I subbed in as someone else, I would probably be buying into the Ash is Scum theory. As I know Ash was not Scum, I'm not buying it. My initial reaction was to suspect the case against Ash/me. I've already admitted it was a bit OMGUSish. (Your quote started right after I said that in fact. It might look different as

As I think on it, a great deal of my suspicion was OMGUS. To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

My PM stated that it was possible that I was the Chosen One, but I don't know if I am.

"If I subbed in as someone else, I would probably be buying into the Ash is Scum theory. As I know Ash was not Scum, I'm not buying it."

I was answering a hypothetical question about the alignment of my character as if I were another player in this game. How could I not refer to my own alignment?


in my 27th post of the game, I said:

So, yes, I'm either Town or tricksy Scum. Wink

This was in response to me making an error on who was NK'd and who was replaced. I hope it's seen as the joke it was intended to be

In my 28th post, I respond to Dry who made felt that I was referring to my Towniness a lot. Looking back, it really doesn't seem like a lot. I do it once, then I admit how my reasoning was flawed. Then I answer questions about why I said it.

So, my question is, why does it seem like such a big deal? And why does Mitey jump on it making it seem like I did it a lot, when if fact, it only really came up very early after I subbed and then in response to questions about it.

[Special Ed]

I'm not as confident of that, but

I'm definitely town

, and it is possible I'm the chosen, so yeah,

be careful saying that, someone might turn it into a case against you. Especially if you comment on it later

[Special Ed]

oh, botched tags, my apologies. Preview is my friend.

[Special Ed]

Now...why Ed. Like I said a bit of this is gut and some has been mentioned before but, he came in and was just a pile of distractions. I'm fine with asking questions about what Day 1 is normally like here but, it was a distraction. He then brought up my meta, again distraction...that one was close to a full page and was quite smudgey. Zorblag kind of called him and I didn't want to add to that as, I have been accused of having a big ego and didn't want to have it be all about me.

Please point out the smudges. As far as I can tell, a good portion of the play on this site is smudging and looking for reactions. I'm not complaining about it, just pointing it out.

While I'm at it then...he has come into Day 2 and he has grasped at 3 different straws against me...first that I wouldn't take out the person voting for me but, it's a healthy dose of WiFoM.

Which is exactly what I called it, certainly not part of any case against you.

Second, he says he thinks I'm Scum (no case here BTW) and that he agrees with the stance on me.

Where did I say you were Scum? I just pointed out that I see the validity in the case that's been made against you.

Third that I brought up him saying that he's Town even though I was not the first to bring this up.

Yes, I think I also pointed out that you didn't bring it up, but you did mention it without really doing any looking back to see how often and in what contexts it occurred. You didn't ask questions about it like other players did, you just pointed it out as if it were fact and as if it made a solid case against me.

I did ask him for a case on me and I'll ask again...Ed can we have a case to back up your suspicions please. Oh and can you limit the smudges in it please.

I have yet to make a case against you or vote for you. And, where are these smudges? Are you referring to how I pointed out some WiFoM and also acknowledged the case against you?

His hammer on Raivann...well, he brought up my meta so turnabout is fair play right? Ed has dropped the hammer on himself as Scum to end the Day earlier than expected and limit Town talk. That hammer looked very similar to the one here....at least in my mind.

This hammer looked similar to which time I hammered myself?

I can think of 2 occasions. In the first game I played, I countered the investigator role on Day 3. I got him lynched. He was obviously an investigator. I was an outed Scum on Day 4, I gathered votes quickly and hammered myself.

In a game we played together, Mitey, we were part of a 3 person masonhood with 1 of us being a Scum traitor. You were lynched Day 1, the other true mason was Vig'd Night 1. I was an outed Scum on Day 2. I don't recall all my shenanigans, but I may have hammered myself.

So, how are those cases, or ANY case where I may have hammered myself so similar to an instance where you accuse me of hammering, not myself, but a fellow Scum?

So basically one of these is not a ton of suspicious (except to me that will always suspect Ed..hehehe) but, together it doesn't look good for Ed.

I would say, taken together, it doesn't look like a good case against me.

[Special Ed]

I just re-read the game again, and Ash looks even worse than I remembered. Dry-Fit's Special Ed case is also good. Now I'm conflicted.{{{{SNIP}}}

I cannot tell you what Ash was thinking or why he may have voted the way he did.

[Special Ed]

I just re-read the game again, and Ash looks even worse than I remembered. Dry-Fit's Special Ed case is also good. Now I'm conflicted.{{{{SNIP}}}

I cannot tell you what Ash was thinking or why he may have voted the way he did.

Nor do I expect you to. I do hope, however, that you don't expect me to ignore your predecessor.

Not at all. I just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring your post

[Special Ed]

I wouldn't call that "analysis," but okay. In fact, some analysis might be helpful.

No offense intended. Maybe it's just a question of word usage. For me, "analysis" would entail a lot of exposition. What you did there was collect a lot of data and present your opinion. I'd call it analysis if you wrote about the reason for each vote or something in detail like that.

---

I'd be okay lynching Raivann or Ash. Troll (aka. Zorblag) gave a decent reason for choosing Raivann over Ash, but I could be swayed back to Ash.

This was written for 2 reasons:
First, it was true. I would have been okay with an Ash lynch on day 1.
More importantly, I wanted to see if anyone preferred Ash over Raivann for the lynch. At the time, I didn't know whether Raivann was scum or a VT (though it was pretty safe to assume he wasn't the chosen.) But either way, I was offering to push on Ash instead of Raivann, and PZ was already voting for him. If Ash was the chosen, I expected the scum would probably take me up on this offer to switch, even if Raivann was town. But instead, the scum were okay with one of their own (Raivann) being lynched instead of Ash. Even Raivann-scum didn't seem too interested in turing my attention toward Ash.
So I doubt that Ash/Ed is the chosen. If he is, both of the scum are sly and don't mind gambits -- sacrificing one of their own to convince us (or at least me) that Ash/Ed isn't likely to be the chosen.
The easiest explanation for why the scum did not prefer an Ash/Ed lynch over a Raivann-scum lynch is that a lynch on Ash/Ed would have been equally bad for them, i.e. they were both scum.

Of all of the votes on the wagon, Ed's was the one I don't consider a town-tell. A Raivann lynch was inevitable. If Ed knew Raivann was scum, I can believe he figured it would be better to be on the wagon than to be off it.

I'm surprised that Zorblag did not point out at least the first of these two issues earlier on day 2. Maybe he just didn't want to put words into my posts. There's a chance that he's scum on a gambit, and wants to avoid responsibility for an Ash/Ed lynch, but it seems more likely that he is town. Also, it's possible he wanted to hold on to Ed as a trump non-chosen lynch. That last part was one reason why I was inactive earlier on this day -- to see who, if anyone, pushed an Ed lynch.

I support a lynch of Ed. I'm pretty confident he's not the chosen, and if he's scum, that would explain both Ash's scumtells, and why neither of the scum advocated for his lynch yesterday.

I have some things to say about other players, which will only be relevant if Ed is town:
MM - some scumtells and relatively low involvement on day 1. It's not enough to convince me that she's scum, but she'd be a reasonable future lynch if there is a day 3. Or the scum may kill her so that we have to make a different choice.

Dry-fit - his argument about Ed has some holes, but I still agree with it. As long as Ed is not the chosen, I don't find him suspicious. I didn't pay too much attention to BC yesterday, so I'll reread them if there is a night 2.

Zorblag - is capable of the level of subtlety needed to both bus his partner and avoid responsibility for the Ed lynch if Ed is the chosen. But if Ed was the chosen and Zorblag was scum, I don't think he'd have made such a big issue of lynching players who were most likely to be excluded.

tl;dr:

Let's lynch Ed. He's not likely the chosen. He could easily be scum. In the unlikely event that he is the chosen, I will become paranoid.

Is there anything else to say before the hammer?

I agree, after reading this, that it seems unlikely that I'm the chosen. I am OK with being lynched toDay. At 6-1, we have 2 mislynches left to catch our remaining Scum.

[Special Ed]

Is there anything else to say before the hammer?

Good stuff.

I'd prefer we give afatchic/replacement a chance to weigh in before the day closes.

No

! I'm going to hammer myself like Mtey says I do when I'm Scum....and...

OK, the idea for this post was funnier in my head than it is in preview.

[Special Ed]

Is there anything else to say before the hammer?

Good stuff.

I'd prefer we give afatchic/replacement a chance to weigh in before the day closes.

No

! I'm going to hammer myself like Mtey says I do when I'm Scum....and...

OK, the idea for this post was funnier in my head than it is in preview.

I'm baffled about whether this post amounts to Ed claiming scum.

If you aren't scum, I don't think you should self-hammer. If you are, then there's no need to make us wait for afa to respond to his prod or, heh, be replaced immediately before the town wins.

I apologize for wasting my sense of humor on this forum. It won't happen again.

[Special Ed]

oh goodness, you people are dense.

I'm not going to self-hammer on the odd hope that maybe the Scum will slip at some point and help you figure out who they are.

[Special Ed]

I like PZ's vote "analysis" on Ed. I'm pretty well convinced Ed is the scum now.

A quick theory question: Would it be better for Ed to not self-hammer so that there are more people on the lynching wagon, or do non-voters/those with votes elsewhere provide as much information for vote analysis?

Why are you worried about how the votes will look when analyzing the vote results?

And why are you so sure I'm not Scum and therefore we will be analyzing votes after my lynch?

[Special Ed]

OK, let's look at this for toMorrow. (completely plagiarized)

2 Archon:

TDC

,

Nuwen

0

AshMC1984

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
0

Nuwen

: [/color]
2 Papa Zito: MiteyMouse,

AshMC1984

0

TDC:

2 Archon:

TDC

,

Nuwen

0

AshMC1984

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
1

Nuwen

: Papa Zito
2 Papa Zito: MiteyMouse,

AshMC1984

0

TDC

:

3 Herodotus:

TDC

,

Raivann

,

AshMC1984

1

AshMC1984

: Papa Zito
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
2

Raivann

: Zorblag, Herodotus
1 [Papa Zito: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

:

1 Herodotus:

Raivann

0

Special

Ed

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
3

Raivann

: Zorblag Herodotus Papa Zito
0 Papa Zito: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

:

5

Raivann

: Zorblag, Herodotus, Papa Zito,

TDC

,

Special

Ed

1 Herodotus:

Raivann

0

Special Ed

1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
1 Papa Zito: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

I would agree that it seems unlikely that the first 3 voters on Raivann contain the other Scum. There was too much opportunity to get off that wagon before TDC and I joined (but it's still possible)

Dry's last comments puzzle me a bit, as he starts off saying he's convinced I'm Scum, but then asks about how the vote analysis will look toMorrow. If I'm Scum, there will be no analysis toMorrow. Also, if you're Town, you should be more worried about finding Scum rather than how the vote analysis will look toMorrow.

The case against Mitey is not mine. It's Zorblag's mostly, and I have nothing to really add to it, but I see it's validity.

afat seems to be laying very low, not sure if that's a playstyle, if they've just disappeared, or if it's a tactic.


I don't have a good read on the remaining Scum, but I'd wager you'll find them in the 3 remaining one-off voters from Day 1.

[Special Ed]

Dry's last comments puzzle me a bit, as he starts off saying he's convinced I'm Scum, but then asks about how the vote analysis will look toMorrow. If I'm Scum, there will be no analysis toMorrow. Also, if you're Town, you should be more worried about finding Scum rather than how the vote analysis will look toMorrow.

Even though I think it's likely you're scum, we still need to pick the optimal strategy in the event of later days. The reason I brought up the vote analysis is because it's a theory question that's interested me for a while, and it happened to come up. Though it's now obvious you weren't serious about self-hammering.

um, true I wasn't serious about self-hammering.

I was mocking part of Mitey's case against me. That I self-hammer when Scum. While it's true, I've only self-hammered as

outed

Scum. Despite the suspicion on me, I'm not an outed Scum. The 2 cases I have to guess she was referring to, there was no question whatsoever that I was Scum in those games.

I'm sorry no one realized that I was making fun of that. That's why I apologized for it.

[Special Ed]

A sentence or two of why you think those things would be great too.

In post 405, I place my suspicion on the three one off voters ant why I believe them to be Scum.

I also list that I suspect the other three remaining Raivann voters to be Town because they did have ample opportunity to leave the bandwagon.

I agree that hero has made a good case for him being the Chosen, I think it will lose some validity after my lynch, however.

But to summarize:

Dry's post #400, I know it's weak. In fact, I wouldn't vote based soley on that, but it did ping me a tiny bit. Couple that with the case against me saying I'm Town, which I think I've detailed well, and I've got 2 small pings.

Mitey:
I liked Zoprblag's post 342. I agree that it seemed as if Mitey was grasping at straws to make a case on Day 1.
She also jumped on what I think was a weak case by dry as to my stating I'm town, and never responded to my defense of it.
She basically states that her vote is based on 'gut' but also states that she always thinks I'm scum. From my wiki one can see that I've been Scum 7 times. 2 of those were all scum faction games. 2 of those were recruitment games.
Finally, she states that I self-hammer when Scum. I've already refuted that as well.

Afat: doesn't seem to be around, isn't participating much over all. It could be a strategy to hide.

[Special Ed]

Special Ed, some of us dense people saw the joke, don't worry.

I would like to see your answer to Papa Zito's more specific questions though. I'm glad that you answered my more general question but if you're town more in depth reasons for what you're thinking can only help as we go on. If I were to focus on one person in particular there are a number of things that I could add to the reasons that I don't care for what MiteyMouse has done that I haven't mentioned but my attention has been pretty strongly there for most of today so I won't. More particulars as this point from you would be appreciated.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Is my most recent post sufficient?

Do you have more questions?

I'm taking my daughter shopping. I'll respond afterwards if no one hammers me.

[Special Ed]

PS, sorry for the snarkiness. It's just a little frustrating when what I assume are obvious jokes are taken seriously. Instead of blaming others, I should blame myself for delivering the joke poorly.

My apology is sincere

[Special Ed]

I agree that hero has made a good case for him being the Chosen, I think it will lose some validity after my lynch, however.

Unless you end up being the chosen why should that be the case?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

because he bases part of it on me being Scum

[Special Ed]

As for whether the other post is sufficient, it's up to you. Again, if you're town and expecting to be lynched my hope is that you'll do what you can to pass any helpful thoughts on to the rest of the town before you get killed. I'm not going to stop you from providing whatever other information you think is worth sharing as it gives us more to work with down the road if you're a mislynch. Anything you don't say is useless to us by default.

Enjoy the shopping trip!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Thanks, nothing like shopping for clothes with a 13 year old girl

I've provided what I'm thinking.


Any more would be pure conjecture. The only added benefit you'll have to my conjecture toMorrow is that you'll know it wasn't tainted by a Scummy heart. The rest of the Town has just as much information as I do and just as much brain power.

[Special Ed]

Ed...you called me Scum without a case to back it up...that is a smudge.

And, maybe I want you lynched because I think you're Scum?

You phrased it as a hypothetical but, the intend is still there.

The self hammer (mercy killing) that I'm thinking of is not either of those Ed...it was the mini on FB.

You have said that you acknowledged the case against me. Which one? The one for me beoing Scum or the distraction case that you brought up about me playing differently? You are being very vague and that is not like you.

Now, you are always getting so angry at me for not backing up cases and smudging...please, if you are Town, help us out here Ed! And if you are Town, I will make my appologies at the after party my friend.

Let's go back over this interaction, especially since you're bringing up my wanting you lynched.

I agree with the stance on Mitey, but I do not want to put us within reach of a hammer without having heard from everyone, and without giving Mitey a chance to rebut.

This came right after Zorblag and Papa stated their cases against Mitey.

As I've stated before, I was acknowledging the case against you, and I didn't really have anything further to add. Not even a vote, if you notice.

Special Ed...oh Ed...first off...*kick*..I feel better.
Ok...knowing Ed, I didn't think too much of him saying that he was Town, however, he really does say it a lot doesn't he? He also dropped the hammer on Raivann which is ok since he was a Scum but, it really cut down on our Day 1 talk time...by almost a full week. Now, Ed knows that talk time is good for Town. Why drop the hammer so soon Ed?
Day 2 is a bit funny for me...you have tried 2 different ways to go after me here Ed...that's after bring up my playstyle differences. You're grasping hard to get me killed...why is that?

Let me list your misconceptions. I won't call them smudges (unlike you have have identified points made by me as smudges when I didn't even make any points against you)

1. You point out that you don't think much of me saying I was Town...then you point out that I said it a lot. Without going back to see how many times I did say it. I think you may have been operating off of the case against me. I think I've pointed out how meaningless many of those times were.

2. You point out I dropped the hammer. OK, I did, that's not a smudge (but I thought I'd acknowledge your actual valid point.) Even though maybe for you a 3 week Day is short, for me, it's pretty long.

3. You say I'm 'grasping hard to get you killed.' You don't point out how. By pointing out that I've read the argument against you without arguing for or against it?

And my response:

Yeah, I hate those Day 1's that are only two and a half weeks long. It really limits what we can say. Rolling Eyes

And, maybe I want you lynched because I think you're Scum?

Ok Ed...fair enough, you think I'm Scum but, why? And you can roll your eyes at me all you want but, Days last longer here.

Which, I'll admit, I ignored. No one here seems to have much of a sense of humor. It's a more serious game here. I'm surprised that you didn't see the humor in my statement. Though, you should know me well enugh to know that I always make a case when I vote.

But now, you've come back and said I called you Scum. Even as you acknowledge that I stated it as a hypothetical. Even as you acknowledge that I've made no case against you, and even as you should acknowledge I've made no vote against you.

The self hammer (mercy killing) that I'm thinking of is not either of those Ed...it was the mini on FB.

Ah, Psychopath 3 you must mean by the mini game. Yeah, another game where I was an outed scum. Turned up by an investigator.

So, there are a few cases of me self-hammering when outed as a Scum, can you find any cases of me self-hammering or bussing a fellow Scum who wasn't outed?

[Special Ed]

Ok Ed...I did bring up how you were grasping. Several times I believe. We can keep going at this like we are but, we are getting distracted.

I know that you build cases before you vote and that is part of what is striking me as so odd about the things you have said about me. It's actually making me a bit crazy!!

Maybe that's because I'm not grasping and not building a case against you.

Perhaps you should be commenting to Zorblag and Papa who did actually make cases against you.

But, I'm sure you realized it would be difficult to get them lynched, so you're focusing on me. It does seem that you are the one grasping at anything to make a case against me. Unfortunately, that would make sense were you Scum or Town, because you'd feel the need to get someone else lynched. However, I know you well enough to know that you'd make a solid case if you could. Your inability to do so and your continued pressure against me with weak points pings my scumdar now.

Now

that

is part of a case against you

I'll make it official

vote: Mitey

[Special Ed]

Ed, your opinion on something, please.

Why do you think MiteyScum parked her vote on me all of Day 1?

I can guess.

It feels like she respects you as a player. If she's Town, that means she'd fear you as Scum. If she's Scum, she'd fear you as Town.

I think her early vote was a joke.

When Zorblag joined, she tried to link the 2 of you. If she was Scum, it might be an attempt to deflect attention from her Scumbuddy who was gaining heat.

You had actually taken an early lead, I believe with 2 votes when she changed from a joke vote to a real vote. She held on to that, despite her primary case being against Zorblag. There are a few reasons for that could be possible. She may have been to lazy or waiting to move her vote, she may have felt you were under more suspicion and easier to lynch, or she couldn't come up with a solid vote.

Any of those reasons could apply to a Town player as well as a Scum player. I'm more inclined at this point to believe she's Scum, because her reasoning is weak, and that's not like her.

[Special Ed]

Ed...you scare me more as Scum than they do. Take that as a compliment please.

Oh, I do. And you probably should.

[Special Ed]

hello, reading up. just so you know, don't expect a giant post when i'm done. its not how i roll.

If I'm not mistaken, you roll in a GTS/4 Daytona

[Special Ed]

Cuenta Oficial del Voto:

Special Ed(3): Dry-fit, Papa Zito, MiteyMouse
MiteyMouse(2): Zorblag, Special Ed

No Votando: don_johnson

Con siete vivos, toma cuatro para linchar.

Herodotus??

[Special Ed]

I've nothing to add for now, but this is amusing.

[Special Ed]

^^ not a very good stand to take.

By the way, does Ed's response make you more or less inclined to suspect him?

Special Ed, this is your chance to look at developing play and help the town determine who's scum. Don't just be a peanut gallery.

OK, I guess you guys aren't idiots and this is just the base level of play on this site.

Yeah, I'm amused at your little 'games' thinking you're going to trick a Scum into such an obvious gaffe.

Does this crap work over here? To me, it's a waste of time.

Is my response suspicious? I'm laughing at you all. Does that make me Scum? No, it makes me amused. Are you really looking for a Scum tell in that? Do you think I'd post any differently were I scum or not?

And Zorblag, what good is it to keep asking me what I think about things? Keep your own damn case out there fro scrutiny and defend it. I see the developing play. It's worthless. And 3 people thinking they'd tricked someone with an easily seen gambit and getting all excited about it. You've already asked me my opinion, I've stated it, and then no one talks about it. This is supposed to be a team game. In the games I've read here, it seems more of an ego game. People would rather lose the game, but be able to claim to have figured it out than win the game.

Amusing, that's what it is.

Revealing, not so much unless some of you are as bad as your play indicates.

How about we get back to playing mafia. Look at the voting patterns, look at the cases made. Look at the cases attacked. Look at the cases not made.

I don't mind being lynched. I'm hopeful that if I am, you'll have some useful information there. If not, lord help us.

[Special Ed]

just got home. wanted to leave my vote on herod for a bit to see if anyone jumped on.

unvote, vote special ed

his recent posts have a more ad hom approach(i.e. complaining about how we play on this site) and appeal to emotion. his lackidaisical response to my posting just seemed like scum waiting to see what happened before committing to either side. did anyone figure the odds of afatchic being the chosen? i don't think i am, but i think the actual clues point towards an ed/raivann pairing. if its not ed, i would certainly become more suspicious of those leading the town right now.

PZ: read all you want. i'm an idiot and people generally don't welcome me into their games.

It might be considered ad hominem or an appeal to emotion if I were using it to try to get votes off of me.

However, I was using it because you guys were playing obvious gambits and think you were really clever. It

was

amusing.

Do you really think I was waiting to see how it played out before committing to a side? There were no sides. Everyone was pretending to be tricksy.

I realize I'm the likely lynch candidate. And I realize the reasons. There's a lot that I can't do anything about because I have no idea why the person I subbed for acted the way they did. It didn't make sense.

I've logically refuted the arguments that have been presented against me and my play as best as I could. Like the ones you've presented.

I think from everyone else's perspective I am the likeliest lynch target. I could argue against it using a wide variety of logical fallacies that I'd read about in some wiki somewhere, but that would be arguing against logic.

Btw, honestly an ad hominem argument isn't always bad. It would be listed as a fallacy in logic books, but real life (and online mafia) are not played in a logic book. They are played in real life, where one must question the ability, motivation, and accuracy of those presenting arguments.

But, regardless, just because I insulted someone's sensiblities doesn't mean I was arguing. I was only observing

[Special Ed]

nope, sorry. But we can wait and see if I was the chosen.