Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[Mr Stoofer]

First random

Vote: EmpTyger

of the day.

[Mr Stoofer]

Well, amusing as the MeMe vs LML catfight is, it seems to be generating more heat than light. To be honest, my first reaction too what MeMe said about a "non-Javert" cop was suspicion (like LML), so I am not surprised that LML jumped down her throat. On the other hand, having read the whole thread now, I am not convinved that my initial reaction was the right one.

But I am

much

more interested in MeMe's non-random vote for gootentag. I appreciate that you may have been trying to make somehting happen without drawing attention to yourself, but since your vote has now been put under the microscope, that's not going to happen. So I for one would like to know a little more about why you think gootentag is suspicious.

Also, what do people think about killing groups? There was only one death last night, but that could have been due to a doc or roleblocker or double targetting. Is it possible that we have an SK in a group this small?

In other news:
* I have not read the book but I have seen the 1978 Film several times. Can someone remind where to find the mod's link?
* I am against any sort of role/character claim at this stage for many reasons including the fact that trying to outguess the mod's allocation of characters to roles is pointless.

[Mr Stoofer]

Well, amusing as the MeMe vs LML catfight is, it seems to be generating more heat than light. To be honest, my first reaction too what MeMe said about a "non-Javert" cop was suspicion (like LML), so I am not surprised that LML jumped down her throat. On the other hand, having read the whole thread now, I am not convinved that my initial reaction was the right one.

But I am

much

more interested in MeMe's non-random vote for gootentag. I appreciate that you may have been trying to make somehting happen without drawing attention to yourself, but since your vote has now been put under the microscope, that's not going to happen. So I for one would like to know a little more about why you think gootentag is suspicious.

Also, what do people think about killing groups? There was only one death last night, but that could have been due to a doc or roleblocker or double targetting. Is it possible that we have an SK in a group this small?

In other news:
* I have not read the book but I have seen the 1978 Film several times. Can someone remind where to find the mod's link?
* I am against any sort of role/character claim at this stage for many reasons including the fact that trying to outguess the mod's allocation of characters to roles is pointless.

[Mr Stoofer]

Perhaps MeMe and LML could put their claws away and concentrate on finding scum instead of scratching each other's eyes out.

Reading the thread again, it seems to me that Emptyger's posts are the most suspicious, trying to draw out information which at this stage of the game would be more use to the scum than the town. I think that LML has a point in the above post [47].

My random vote was already on Emptyger and I am happy keep it there for now.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote: the next person to speculate as to the role which the mod has assigned to any character from the book

.

[Mr Stoofer]

I have just read the thread again and I have to say that Emptyger's posts are distinctly smelly.

First, he was rather rather keen to find out everyone's familiarity with the book. He pressed everyone to reveal the level of their knowledge in post 7 and then repeated his request in post 17:

Could everyone just indicate whether they have or have not read the book/seen the play? And how familiar they are? For example, is there anyone who doesn’t know who Grantaire is? If we're analyzing the nature of the character of Javert, it would help to know everyone's background.
Myself: read and seen, multiple times.

This looks to me like he was trying to see how far he could get away with with false roleclaims etc.

Secondly, and connected to the first point, he said this in post 7:

I was wondering whether having everyone claim their characters made any sense, because working from the main characters there seemed to be a small number of main roles (eg: Valjean, Cosette, Marius). However, since Seol had a relatively minor character, that doesn’t seem the best plan. Mafia could easily claim relatively minor roles like Grantaire, and we’d be unable to tell who they were. And there’s a great risk that any cops and doctors would be easy for the mafia to identify from their characters.

This read to me as though he was delibeately laying the ground for a false claim to a minor character.

Thirdly, he has twice suggested that the cop should claim:

Is there any reason not to have a cop come forwards if they think they’ve found someone who is mafia?

Is there a good way to check whether a cop found mafia last night? In newbie 85 everyone posted one of {“If I am the cop, I did not find mafia last night” / “I found a mafia”}. Of course, given what happened in that game, that might not be the best precedent...

Fourthly, he has twice suggested that there might not be any mafia at all.

I’ve never played in a themed setup, but I’m having trouble getting the numbers to work for multiple killing groups. Maybe 2 serial killers and no mafia? The mod’s first post, “Players dead, ill, maimed, on the run or otherwise incarcerated:” does seem to imply multiple ways of death, which would point away from simply 1 mafia.

And he raised the same possibility in post 38.

My first and third points have already been made by LML, so I do not think that I am being paranoid. Now, it may be that Emptyger is a newbie, but I do not think that that is a satisfactory explanantion. In fact, I think it is noticeable how many times he makes reference to being a newbie - so much so that I think I'll call this my fifth reason.

I think that in the absence of anything better to go on, Empytger must be the current prime suspect.

[Mr Stoofer]

Without responding to every point made by Emptyger:

(a)

Just to clarify my 2nd point, I thought that it was suspicious that you were saying that the mod has obviously chosen to include minor characters. Normally it is dangerous to make a false claim a minor character because (although unlikely to be anyone else's character in the game) the town might not believe the claim. So your post 7 seemed to me to be preparing the ground for such a claim.

(b)

I happily accept that none of my points are conclusive (individually or collectively). But taken together they do raise a suspicion in my mind. In the absence of anything better to go on, you are more suspicious than anyone else at present.

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't need a prod either. I have posted a full and detailed account of why my vote is on EmpTyger and nothing I have seen wants to make me change it.

However, I will give a

FOS vikingfan

because he seems to be a genuine lurker: making just enough posts to keep off the lurker rader but not actually saying anything of substance. If EmpTyger turns out to be innocent then his last post [80] will look very suspicious.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm thinking at this point in time, we probably just need to start bandwagoning someone and get a roleclaim-that's what usually happens day 1. So since we're looking at this route, I'll go with the one who seems to be most suspicious(at least when I look at the posts).

unvote MeMe

vote EmpTyger

This is indeed a good strategy. I acrtually think on reflection that EmpTyger's reaction to the pressure he has been put under has been fairly non-scummy. So for the time being I am going to

Unvote EmpTyger

.

So who to vote for? Well, MeMe seems to have a thing about gootentag. I would happily put some pressure on gootentag if MeMe could give me a good reason to do this, but so far she has not.

Meanwhile, as I said in my last post, I think that vikingfan's behaviour has been "classic mafia lurker" - i.e. say just enough to avoid an accusation of lurking but do not commit or draw attention to yourself by saying anything of any substance. MeMe: unless you can persuade me to vote for gootentag, I ma going to vote vikingfan.

[Mr Stoofer]

Lots of people have

FOS

sed vikingfan without voting for him - including me. The vote count suggests to me that we are not making progress, so to get things moving I'm going to

Vote: vikingfan

.

[Mr Stoofer]

For what it is worth, I am not in favour of LML revelaing anything more about his role at this stage. I'm a bit nervous about Changling Bob's repeated attempts to extract information from him.

I still think that vikingfan is by far the mosts suspicious character at this stage and that we should be focussing our energies on him until persuaded otherwise.

[Mr Stoofer]

I have fallen in love with Cosette but can't find her. As a result, I can send either myself or Eponine to search for her. Once I find her, I will receive more info.

If you don't know who Eponine is, how can you send her to search for Cosette?

[Mr Stoofer]

I'll

unvote: vikingfan

for now but I would like him or Changling Bob to answer my question as it is the one thing I don't understand about this claim.

[Mr Stoofer]

My gut reaction is that vikingfan and CB are not anti-town. The idea of them being anti-town just doesn't work for me, especially since their strategy of claiming to be pro-town masons would be hugely dangerous on Day 1 (the moment one dies, their alignment will be revealed and the other will be lynched).

I think LML has a point. I think it surprising that either are still suspicious of vikingfan and CB and more surprising that they are

both

still pursuing them.

FOS: gootentag & LordKrishna

with a vote to follow unless anyone can suggest a better candidate.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm going away for Easter (which is a 4 day holiday in the UK) so I won't be posting again until Monday evening GMT.

[Mr Stoofer]

Wow!

Just got back from a long weekend away and the huge amount of points posted in the meantime has overloaded my brain.

Given we are making such little progress, I'm going to throw out 2 radical suggestions for general discussion. Plerase do not lynch me for making these suggestions, they are just suggestions for discussion.

1. My role PM makes it pretty obvious who the scum are. Everyone could claim their names and then we would either have our scum or 1 or more liars. Of course, this option requires some trust to be placed in me. [I would have to make a detailed claim first.]

2. We lynch EmpTyger since he was first person to appear scummy and managed to talk himself out of a lynch merely by appearing rational rather than by offering any "proof" such as a claim.

For what it is worth, LML's claim sounds completely plausible to me and I cannot at this stage beleive that CB and vikingfan are scum because if they were CB coming out and confirming vikingfan was stupidly risky. (That was the basis for the point I was trying to make in post [126].)

[Mr Stoofer]

Wow!

Just got back from a long weekend away and the huge amount of points posted in the meantime has overloaded my brain.

Given we are making such little progress, I'm going to throw out 2 radical suggestions for general discussion. Plerase do not lynch me for making these suggestions, they are just suggestions for discussion.

1. My role PM makes it pretty obvious who the scum are. Everyone could claim their names and then we would either have our scum or 1 or more liars. Of course, this option requires some trust to be placed in me. [I would have to make a detailed claim first.]

2. We lynch EmpTyger since he was first person to appear scummy and managed to talk himself out of a lynch merely by appearing rational rather than by offering any "proof" such as a claim.

For what it is worth, LML's claim sounds completely plausible to me and I cannot at this stage beleive that CB and vikingfan are scum because if they were CB coming out and confirming vikingfan was stupidly risky. (That was the basis for the point I was trying to make in post [126].)

[Mr Stoofer]

If your role makes it "pretty obvious" who the scum are, it makes sense to me that you'd have been interested in encouraging claims rather than quashing them.

So, how do you explain...

* I am against any sort of role/character claim at this stage for many reasons including the fact that trying to outguess the mod's allocation of characters to roles is pointless.

and

Vote: the next person to speculate as to the role which the mod has assigned to any character from the book

.

...?

Your earlier emphatic "don't do it" attitude about role discussion doesn't seem to jive with your current claim to know which roles are scum roles.

Regardless, if making a "detailed" claim of your role is what you wanna do, I'm willing to hear you out.

The reason I didn't want speculation was this. I think I know who the mafia are from my role PM (let's call him/her/them "X"). This information could be very useful if someone claimed to be X. I could then reveal my information and we would have a lynch. What I was afraid of was that a consensus would emerge that X was scum. Then the real X would never claim to be X and my idea wouldn't work. You may think I was being stupid and I might agree with you.

I made my later suggestion because, after reading the very substantial discussion, I felt that we (or certainly I) was no nearer finding a day 1 lynch and I was trying to "think outside the box". As I tried to make clear, I was raising this for discussion. You are quite right that my suggestion is inconsistent with my earlier attitude but I as I said at the time, I was trying to think of "radical suggestions"

[Mr Stoofer]

gootentag is right and I'm an idiot. Bad play borne of impatience .

[Mr Stoofer]

I understood gootentag's point to be this:

(1) If the scum have obviously scummy roles (gootentag's examples: Javert or the Thenardiers), then my idea is pointless since they would never claim those roles anyway.

(2) If the scum have non-scummy roles (MeMe's examples: Fantine and Eponine) then maybe the scum might have claimed those roles. But since I have now stated stated that I knew who the scum were, they will never claim their true roles.

Therefore, if (1) is true, my idea is simply a vanilla role claim. If (2), then I have thrown away a benefit for the town because the scum now know that their roles give them away (whereas previously they might wrongly have felt safe in claiming their true roles).

If I am scum then my suggested plan must have been a pretty outrageous ruse. As well as drawing attention to myself, at the very best it would have got 1 townie lynched followed by me being turbo-lynched when that person was revealed as a townie.

I am a little surprised that MeMe thinks that what gootentag said is scummy. (I am less surprised that she is concerned by me, but I hope you all will accept that it was just poor play).

FOS MeMe

, I think.

[Mr Stoofer]

I understood gootentag's point to be this:

(1) If the scum have obviously scummy roles (gootentag's examples: Javert or the Thenardiers), then my idea is pointless since they would never claim those roles anyway.

(2) If the scum have non-scummy roles (MeMe's examples: Fantine and Eponine) then maybe the scum might have claimed those roles. But since I have now stated stated that I knew who the scum were, they will never claim their true roles.

Therefore, if (1) is true, my idea is simply a vanilla role claim. If (2), then I have thrown away a benefit for the town because the scum now know that their roles give them away (whereas previously they might wrongly have felt safe in claiming their true roles).

If I am scum then my suggested plan must have been a pretty outrageous ruse. As well as drawing attention to myself, at the very best it would have got 1 townie lynched followed by me being turbo-lynched when that person was revealed as a townie.

I am a little surprised that MeMe thinks that what gootentag said is scummy. (I am less surprised that she is concerned by me, but I hope you all will accept that it was just poor play).

FOS MeMe

, I think.

[Mr Stoofer]

I too was surprised the Stoofer agreed with my analysis, and that raised an eyebrow for me as well. Mostly beacuse bad play, when confronted, typically dosn't admit to it or honestly doesn't realize it as bad at the time.

I don't have many good qualities but one of them is the ability to admit my mistakes and learn from them.

[Mr Stoofer]

Unvote

just to be safe and

Vote: EmpTyger

.

I don't know what to make of his "April Fool's joke". Even ignoring his "claim" I am content with this vote. I find post 208 particularly scummy.

[Mr Stoofer]

I didn't realise my vote would put EmpyTger one away from a lynch.

unvote

to give him one last chance to do a non-April Fool's claim. But I will put the vote back on unless it's a good one.

[Mr Stoofer]

While I agree that EmpTyger indeed looks pretty bad after the Thenardier claim, I think the Valjean claim can't be ignored either.

I also am interested in hearing from Mr. Stoofer in particular about both claims

- after all, he's the one who claims to have the inside track on who the scum roles are. Particularly if he nails Valjean as potentially scum.

Sorry but Valjean is not the scum group identified in my role PM, although he could be an SK, although the consensus seems to be that it is unlikely that there is more than one killing group. But I find EmpTyger's doctor claim really troubling. I want him to explain the theme justification for him being a doctor. Aleyn's role PM's are never as simple as "you are the doctor".

Stoofer: Could you explain what part of [208] is “particularly scummy”?

It was the post as a whole, but I particulalrly didn't like the way you were flinging around semi-confident assertions about who the mafia were.

[Mr Stoofer]

While I agree that EmpTyger indeed looks pretty bad after the Thenardier claim, I think the Valjean claim can't be ignored either.

I also am interested in hearing from Mr. Stoofer in particular about both claims

- after all, he's the one who claims to have the inside track on who the scum roles are. Particularly if he nails Valjean as potentially scum.

Sorry but Valjean is not the scum group identified in my role PM, although he could be an SK, although the consensus seems to be that it is unlikely that there is more than one killing group. But I find EmpTyger's doctor claim really troubling. I want him to explain the theme justification for him being a doctor. Aleyn's role PM's are never as simple as "you are the doctor".

Stoofer: Could you explain what part of [208] is “particularly scummy”?

It was the post as a whole, but I particulalrly didn't like the way you were flinging around semi-confident assertions about who the mafia were.

[Mr Stoofer]

Just to clarify my previous post:

Valjean is not [in] the scum group identified in my role PM, although he could be an SK

This is pure speculation on my part and not based on anything in my role PM.

[Mr Stoofer]

WARNING: This post is more of a me thinking out loud/stream of conciousness/random musings than anythig else.

I have some problems with MeMe's claim to be Valjean:

1

. Is EmpTyger really such an idiot that he would claim to be Valjean when he is not? He must have known that Valjean was in the game. A false claim by EmpTyger doesn't seem to make any sense (especially after he himself pointed out that this game included some quite minor roles, ie Grantaire) [But see 6A below].

2

. Like others, I find EmpTyger's flavour justification for Valjean=doctor compelling. I have nothing from MeMe to balance against this.

3

. I am concerned that (a) this is a very small game and (b) MeMe is an incredibly good player. I am concerned that she has calculated a way for her side to win even if she is lynched tomorrow (for not being Valjean).

On the other hand:

4

. Despite what I said at 3 above, I can't actually work out how a false claim to Valjean is is a good strategy for MeMe (see also 6B below).

5

. MeMe's claim does at least explain why she was surprisingly strong in her condemnation of EmpTyger even after he said (quite convincingly I thought at the time) that he was joking (a point also made by Lord Krishna at [232]). (Then again her condemnation is equally consistent with the MeMe=scum theory).

6

. Before MeMe claimed, EmpTyger was already very close to being lynched at deadline. Therefore:

6A

. EmpyTyger may have felt driven to a desperate gambit (ie claiming Valjean/doctor). Indeed, he might have thought that he had little chance of survival and that the best he could do would be to have a crack at getting the real Valjean lynched. Or maybe his idea was to force the real Valjean to claim, so that his mafia buddy/buddies could kill him, guessing that Valjean would be a power role.

6B

. EmpTyger probably would have been lynched even if MeMe had not come out and claimed Valjean. So if MeMe is mafia making a false claim, it would seem to be putting her neck in the noose without gaining any benefit for her. I can't see her doing that.

Well after all that I think I am going to cross my fingers and

Vote EmpTyger

. Point 6A is the best explanantion I can think of for either EmpTyger or MeMe making a false claim to Valjean. It also cancels out point 1 and point 6B cancels out point 3. As for point 2, it seems to be somehting that EmpTyger thought of himself anyway.

edit:

Just read this through and it occured to me that point 6B raises the question: why would MeMe claim Valjean if she

was

Valjean? Oh well, I still think 6A is the best I am going to be able to work out before deadline.

[Mr Stoofer]

Your arguments don't work for me because I do not think that MeMe would have been a certain lynch if you had turned out to be Valjean, prior to her claiming to be Valjean.
[Although I see the force of your point 5]

[Mr Stoofer]

*Keeps fingers crossed*

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm suspicious of almost alll y'all. Some, obviously, to a greater degree than others

Surely Changling Bob and I are confirmed innocent? Bob is confirmed innocent by vikingfan being confirmed as a pro-town mason. I am surely innocent based on my repeated attempts to get EmpTyger lynched (which, before you ask, was based entirely on what he was posting).

That means it must be gootentag or LordKrishna. Looking at their posts, and what EmpTyger said about them, from yesterday, I'm going to

FOS LordKrishna

for now.

I'm for a mass claim at this point -- role names first...mechanics if the names haven't told us enough. Any objections?

I think that this would be a good idea and obviously I'd like nominate LordKrishna to go first. Before we do this, though, why do you think you were not targetted last night - since you were pretty much cleared as a result of your duel with EmpTyger? The only logic in EmpTyger claiming to be Valjean was because he wanted the real Valjean dead. The fact that you are still alive casts a shadow over you, does it not?

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't think LordKrishna has claimed Eponine. If he did, I missed it. Where was it?

[Mr Stoofer]

Everyone is quite right: nobody, including me, is cleared. I think my attitutide towards EmpTyger on Day 1 is [chooses words carefully]

good evidence

[/chooses words carefully] of my innocence. I'll set it out in excrutiating detail if necessary.

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, let’s clear this up. If you look at my posting on day 1

as a whole

it is fairly unlikely that I was in league with EmpTyger. (Numbers refer to post numbers.)

4

12 March: I random vote EmpTyger. Nothing in that of course, but it is interesting in light of what happens later.

12

12 March: Beginning of the LML v MeMe “catfight”. Instead of taking one of the sides (which I surely would have done if I was scum)...

31

13 March and

48

14 March: ...I try to put a stop to the catfight...

57

15 March: ... and instead I pick up on LML’s suspicions of EmpTyger and set out detailed reasons why he is suspicious.

65

16 March and

81

20 March: I stick to my guns in light of EmpTyger’s robust defence.

83

March 20: I eventually unvote him.

Everyone else unvotes EmpTyger and there is no pressure on him at all (a few FOSes, no votes) until…

180

March 30: I suggest as “radical suggestion no. 2” lynching EmpTyger. No one takes me up on the offer.

192

I FOSsed MeMe because I thought she ought to have agreed with gootentag (and in the end, I think maybe she did).

215

April 4: I voted EmpTYger yet again. I expressly said that it was not based on his “April Fool’s joke”. This was

before

MeMe’s counterclaim.

224

April 5: I express scepticism about EmpTyger’s Valjean claim (

before

MeMe’s counterclaim) and explain why I found a recent post of EmpTyger’s scummy.

237

April 6: Following MeMe’s counterclaim, I set out in detail why I believed we should lynch EmpTyger. It was far from clear which way the town would go at this stage. I was genuinely troubled by the fact that I thought it would be idiocy for EmpTyger to claim Valjean if he was not Valjean (that was why I was doubtful). But in the end this post was a powerful attack on EmpTyger at a pivotal moment.

239

April 6: I stick to my guns again.

In light of this, if I am scum with EmpTyger I must be psychotic.

I thought it was important to set this out in case someone claims my role when we do the role claim thing.

[Mr Stoofer]

I am Eponine.

The flavourtext in my role PM makes it quite clear that the Thernadiers (my parents, from whom I have run away and whom I am avoiding) are scum, which at one time I thought was a valuable and exciting piece of information, but I now realise was blindingly obvious.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm not sold on the idea of claiming abilities (MeMe said we shouldn't) but if we do I would like MeMe to explain hers more fully.

As to the role claims, I think its fair to assume that Valjean and Javert are in this game, and since no one has counterclaimed (except EmpTyger), MeMe and LordKrishna are likely telling the truth. In my mind at least, I am sure CB is indeed Enjolras. I think it is clear that Eponine is in the game and again, that can only be me. That leaves gootentag = the bishop as

my

only area of doubt. Does anyone have any reason to doubt any of the other claims? (I am ignoring the question of alignment for now.)

Can I ask those with more familiarity with the book:

1. Is the bishop of comparable stature to the other characters that we know are in the game? Or is he much more minor that the others?

[In this connection I note that EmpTyger made a point on Day 1 of saying how minor Grantaire (Seol) was].

2. Are there lots of other characters in the book who could have produced the result that gootentag apparently did? ie:

you have shady Underworld associations, and that you yourself were just shady enough to arrest, but that doing so would feel wrong, somehow

[Mr Stoofer]

Sorry, I should clarify this comment:

I note that EmpTyger made a point on Day 1 of saying how minor Grantaire (Seol) was

I interpreted EmpTyger's comment as laying the ground for a false claim to a fairly minor character, which he could be confident that no-one else would have, which he could justify by saying "but Grantaire is also a minor character!".

EmpTyger did not adopt this strategy in the end. But it is possible that he was laying the ground for his mafia buddy to do so.

[Mr Stoofer]

Changling Bob: I haven't said whether or not I am a plain townie.

[Mr Stoofer]

The death scene describes the shooter as a male & a group leader.

Is that a FOS: Enjolras?

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm leaning towards Lord Krishna too. Javert could be the leader of a group - he was a senior police officer and would have had men under him.

However, that begs the question: if if LordKrishna/Javert is scum, how did he get such a good knowledge of gootentag's role? Unless it was a lucky guess, he must have the power to investigate one person and yet kill another in the same night! (Surely no scum would ever give up a nightkill in a game this small?)

[Mr Stoofer]

but then I'm not convinced about anyone

You and me both, mate .

[Mr Stoofer]

However, that begs the question: if if LordKrishna/Javert is scum, how did he get such a good knowledge of gootentag's role? Unless it was a lucky guess, he must have the power to investigate one person and yet kill another in the same night! (Surely no scum would ever give up a nightkill in a game this small?)

Gootentag gave a plausible answer to this above. I've just worked out 2 more plausible answers: (1) LordKrishna had convinced himself that gootentag was Eponine and created an investigation result to match her (2) He created an ambiguous result which would read on to a huge number of people (any of the revolutionaries, Valjean, anyone who was mates with Valjean, even the Bishop and the lying Nun, any of the "shady" but good characters such as Eponine or Gavroche, etc etc. indeed almost anyone (even Javert because he posed as a revolutionary!).)

[Mr Stoofer]

If Javert/LordKrishna isn't scum (and having slept on it, I'm beginning to come round to that view), then his result on gootentag is genuine; and therefore gootentag is unlikely to be scum. That leaves (in my mind at least) Changling Bob as the best candidate to be EmpTyger's partner.

I've just done a quick read of all EmpyTyger's and CB's posts (

after

writing the above paragraph), looking for references which each of them make to the other. Having done that excercise, its very easy to believe that they are partners. Perhaps the rest of you could do that excercise and see if you agree.

I also really don't like post 308 as it is stuffed with Craplogic. Bob, if you are scum, it was plainly in your interest to confirm vikingfan since (a) in the minds of many (including me, because I did not consider split alignment masons) it cleared you and (b) if you had not confirmed vikingfan he would have known you were scum.

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, everyone wants me to claim my role mechanics and so I will. At the end of this post I explain why I was reluctant to do so unless required.

Every night I choose someone to hang around. As the estranged daughter of the Thernadiers, I will try frustrate them if they try to harm that person. That is how I knew that Thernadier(s) were scum.

Furthermore, because of my time acting as a lookout for my parents, I will out of habit distract any government agents that try to do anything to the person I am hanging around. I originally interpreted this to mean that that person would be immune from investigation. Of course, if Javert is scum then I would be a straightforward doc.

My target is not made aware that I am hanging around them.

I can see no harm in revealing my nightchoices now but I’ll hold off in case someone wants to point out a good reason not to.

As for why I was reluctant:
1. Having a protection role means I am now the mafia’s number 1 target.
2. Everyone keeps going on about how there are too many powerful town roles so I was (and still am) scared that I won’t be believed.

[Mr Stoofer]

It's difficult to be objective when you are considering a post that is about and directed and yourself. But even so, I find LordKrishna's post 309, where he votes me and says that it is all down to me to find Mme Thernadier, quite extraordinary. I don't think that the he even gave a single reasons why I might be scum. While putting on a vote to "mix it up" is standard day 1 play, I find it a rather remarkable thing to do when we are down to 5 alive.

To clarify my claim, if you believe the flavourtext in my PM, the scum could include Thernadier goons and not just those with the name Thernadier. That wasn't clear from my earlier post: but it I was treading a fine line between being as full and open as possible about a fairly complex role, but not quoting my PM.

I know others disagree, but I could easily accept a set up with 2 independent SKs, namley Thernadier and Javert. That would make me a standard doc and would make perfect sense. It would explan why there is only one Thernadier in the game. And it would explain LK's rather odd statements of late.

[Mr Stoofer]

Or we could interpret the fact that Aleyn has been so faithful to the theme so far as being cover for a theme blowing-pairing such as the Bishop and Thernadier.

[I'm not suggesting that as a serious example but I think we should be careful about assuming that Aleyn is 100% faithful to the theme. That could be just what he wants us to think...]

I confess that I am finding this very difficult indeed.

[Mr Stoofer]

Well I've slept on it again and still none of the possible permutations makes sense:

- gootentag can't be scum unless LordKrishna is lying. But if LordKrishna is lying then he must be the scum.

- LK/Javert can't be scum because (a) it doesn't make sense for Javert to be scum with Thernadier and (b) how did he get such a good read on gootentag?

- CB/Enjolras can't be the scum because that makes no sort of sense and anyway I am getting no scummy vibes from CB (a little CrapLogic aside)

- MeMe can't be the scum for a variety of reasons (or if she is, she deserves to win)

- I can't be the scum because I've read my PM and it says I'm not. (Not that that's much help to you guys.)

HELP!

[Mr Stoofer]

Thanks, that post really helps. I was already thinking that my reasons why LK couldn't be scum were probably the least convincing of the lot.

LordKrishna, please could you explain how I can be scum and yet behave the way I did to EmpTyger on day 1. For convenience, the facts are as follows:

OK, let’s clear this up. If you look at my posting on day 1

as a whole

it is fairly unlikely that I was in league with EmpTyger. (Numbers refer to post numbers.)

4

12 March: I random vote EmpTyger. Nothing in that of course, but it is interesting in light of what happens later.

12

12 March: Beginning of the LML v MeMe “catfight”. Instead of taking one of the sides (which I surely would have done if I was scum)...

31

13 March and

48

14 March: ...I try to put a stop to the catfight...

57

15 March: ... and instead I pick up on LML’s suspicions of EmpTyger and set out detailed reasons why he is suspicious.

65

16 March and

81

20 March: I stick to my guns in light of EmpTyger’s robust defence.

83

March 20: I eventually unvote him.

Everyone else unvotes EmpTyger and there is no pressure on him at all (a few FOSes, no votes) until…

180

March 30: I suggest as “radical suggestion no. 2” lynching EmpTyger. No one takes me up on the offer.

192

I FOSsed MeMe because I thought she ought to have agreed with gootentag (and in the end, I think maybe she did).

215

April 4: I voted EmpTYger yet again. I expressly said that it was not based on his “April Fool’s joke”. This was

before

MeMe’s counterclaim.

224

April 5: I express scepticism about EmpTyger’s Valjean claim (

before

MeMe’s counterclaim) and explain why I found a recent post of EmpTyger’s scummy.

237

April 6: Following MeMe’s counterclaim, I set out in detail why I believed we should lynch EmpTyger. It was far from clear which way the town would go at this stage. I was genuinely troubled by the fact that I thought it would be idiocy for EmpTyger to claim Valjean if he was not Valjean (that was why I was doubtful). But in the end this post was a powerful attack on EmpTyger at a pivotal moment.

239

April 6: I stick to my guns again.

In light of this, if I am scum with EmpTyger I must be psychotic.

Unless I get a good explanantion as to how I can be scum with EmpTyger in light of this I am going to vote for you.

PS: to clarify my role (I did ask the mod about this): I distract anyone (thug or government agent) who targets my target. My target is not affected and can kill/investigate/protect/communicate as they wish.

[Mr Stoofer]

Another thought as to LordKrishna's claim. Why can't he be scum and cop? Assuming for a moment that it isn't just a plain 'scum|non-scum' cop, it would be beneficial for the scum to be able to find out who a possible doc/cop/vig/whatever could be. (I'm bringing this up now since I've just built a random setup generator (for use later), and this happens from time to time on it.)

I don't understand this.

[Mr Stoofer]

[Mr Stoofer]

But gootentag, if LordKrishna is not Javert then (a) Javert is not in the game and (b) LK took a potentially suicidal risk in claiming Javert. I find both of these unlikely. [I thought

you

were Javert, on the basis that Javert would be prohibited form any extra-legal activities such as lynching.]

That aside, I am moving more and more towards a vote for LK based on all the other points previously made. We now have numerous plausible explanations for how could he could have obtained his "result" on gootentag and yet still be scum.

MeMe, I would like to know your views.

[Mr Stoofer]

Still - after all that - I'm afraid...very afraid...that Changling bob's the remaining scum and that Lord Krishna has just been tossing red herrings left and right.

I know how you feel.

Normally with 5 left, 1 scum (as we all seem to think is the case here), the town would have 2 chances to lynch scum to win. But if gootentag genuinely cannot vote

ever

, then its lynch and lose, isn't it? Because If we lynch town today, tomorrow there will probably be 1 townie who can vote, 1 who can't and one scum: a guaranteed scum win.

Gootentag, I would be grateful if you could explain what you understand would happen in this situation - asking the mod for clarification if necessary. [Obviously the mod is not going answer my questions on the subject, since any response he might give me would risk confirming or denying your claimed mechanic.]

[Mr Stoofer]

All

I

meant to say is that I am afraid that you may be scum, not that I think you are scum. I just don't know who the scum is.

[Mr Stoofer]

So basically, I can't vote of my own accord, but I can break a tie post deadline.

So if there are 3 people (you, X and Y), with X and Y voting for each other, after the deadlione is issued you can choose which of X or Y to save, and the other will be lynched at deadline?

[Mr Stoofer]

Mr. Stoofer, having claimed that there is a Mme. Thenardier

Where?



[Double post due to cross-posting]

[Mr Stoofer]

Are you sure about this? Some mods do not allow "half majorities" with fewer than 4 players alive. The rules posted by Aelyn in this game do not address the point.

[Mr Stoofer]

MeMe, I'm heading towards voting for LordKrishna. I'd really appreciate your reasoned views on why CB is the best candidate. Of the reasons you have given so far, the only one I found convincing was his support for EmpTyger on day 1. But I think that LordKrishna's attitutide was no less suspicious.

Gootentag - I'd value your thoughts too. Who would you vote for if you could?

[Mr Stoofer]

I had also appreciated that we probably have 2 chances to lynch the scum to win. As you know, LordKrishna is my best bet at present. My second choice would be Changling Bob, not so much for anything he has done, but simply because I think it even less likely that MeMe or gootentag are scum. So until I read MeMe's post I was prepared to vote for either CB or LordKrishna - with a vote on the other tomorrow (subject to further discussion/consideration/pleading, of course).

However, MeMe's points on recruitment make perfect sense to me. It's better to eliminate the risk of CB being a recruiting scumbag, than to vote for LordKrishna, who can safely wait until tomorrow if he is scum.

Sorry Bob. I can't take the risk.

Vote: Changling Bob

.

[Mr Stoofer]

Kudos to you gootentag. A well deserved win - albeit I think you were a bit lucky with Javert's result on you.

Thanks also to you Aelyn for a great theme adaptation that had us all guessing until the very end. It must have involved a huge amount of work for you. What was the "unusual rule" that you didn't use in the end?