Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[Changling bob]

Sorry I haven't posted yet. I also haven't read the thread fully yet.

ADVANCED WARNING: Until next Sunday I'm going to be really busy with rehersals for a show I'm in on Saturday, and my posting may be sporadic or non-existant. Hopefully I'l be able to get on at lunch in school, but I may not be able to.

Anyway, I'll print the thread now so I can read through it. Or do my physics coursework. Or both.

[Changling bob]

Having read the thread:

There's a lot going on here. Let me first say that after some serious thought, I will withdraw my idea about Javert being scum. After looking at MY role, I can assume who I think the scum are. Javert would not be one of them.

Any chance on elaborating on (a) what you know about who the scum are or (b) how you know who the scum are? The obvious answer to (b) is that you are scum, but I don't think anyone would be that stupid. Unless you're cuning enough to know that we're going to think that no-one's that stupid.

Also, I don't think cop claiming on day one is a good idea, even if a guilty is found. If a cop got innocent, then this should probably only be said if they're about to be lynched. If guilty, I think counter claims could be too easy to fabricate given the whole discussion about how likely certain characters are to be cop.


Oh, and as for experience of the story, I've read the plot synopsis that Aelyn linked to...

[Changling bob]

Aelyn could have put it in to mess with us.

Knowing Aelyn irl, this is likely.

But in a game this small, I doubt there would be more than one killing group. Consider it this way:

If there are two killing groups, starting with 9 players, worst case scenario:
Night 1: 2 players die, 7 left
Day 1: 1 player lynched, 6 left
Night 2: 2 players die, 4 left

By this point, the mafia must surely be in majority, town loses.

Whereas with one killing group, worst case scenario is mafia in majority around day 4 (ish. I haven't actually done the maths for this). And this is given no cop, doc, other roleblocker, special un-nightkillableness, immortals or chickens, so I'm sure the most likely scenario is better than worst case.

[Changling bob]

I don't care which character has which role. The point of my earlier post was to point out the most likely number of killing groups so that we are prepared. Even if we did know which character had which role, we don't know any roles, so it won't help us.

I haven't got any time to analyse anything that people have said so far, I'm still just running on exactly what people say. So, just posting to show I'm not lurking really.

[Changling bob]

First off, everyone seems to be jumping at shadows. So we can't assume to know which characters are which roles. This shouldn't matter. Due to Aelyn's tricksiness with anything and everything (like I said earlier, I know him irl), I doubt that there is much straightforward in this game. So in my opinion, this early in the game we should just think in terms of roles, and ignore characters for now. Maybe once we've hit a scum, we can start to figure out which characters are going to be scum, but by this point there's going to be no takers for the relevent characters. (this written before EmpTygers last post)

EmpTyger: A good reason to not discus role/character relationships is outlined above. Basically, Aelyn could be screwing us and making characters unobvious (is that a word?) roles, hence discussion of them is a little pointless.

Now, I know I'm blatently contradicting myself here, but Loudmouth Lee:

<snip>
While you’re at it, I’d also like to hear your response is to this query, which you’ve ignored:

<snip>Any chance on elaborating on (a) what you know about who the scum are or (b) how you know who the scum are? The obvious answer to (b) is that you are scum, but I don't think anyone would be that stupid. Unless you're cuning enough to know that we're going to think that no-one's that stupid.<snip>

*a member of the audience coughs*
*tumbleweed rolls past*

In my last game, halo freak managed to not answer some questions posed by myself and EmpTyger over several pages, leading me, along with other things, to think that he was scum. I was wrong, but by his own admission he played badly in that game. In addition, observation (b) above needs answering, as this backs up the point I have just made.

Now as yet, I'm undecided about who I would vote for, but the people I'm considering I'll keep to myself for the moment.

Public service announcement

: From around 3:30pm GMT this Friday until either Sunday evening around 9ish GMT or Monday morning around 9:30 GMT, I am unlikely to be online at all, due to a combination of dance rehersal, dance show (twice) and physics coursework due in on Monday. I'm giving you all some warning so that I don't get accused of lurking, especially since I'm not the most prolific of posters at the best of times.

[Changling bob]

I'm now back, and can now safely forget all the dances in my show . Now onto business:

Could you ever think, Tyger, that I *do not* want to talk about my role? There's a very REAL reason for this. Your questions have been ignored. They will continue to be ignored. If you feel I'm acting

THAT

scummy, and you want to use a bandwagon on me, I'll talk. But it wouldn't be beneficial for anyone.

My thoughts on this: the only roles I can think of that you wouldn't want to discus are mafia, SK, doc or cop.
Now if there's a doc, and you're the cop, he can protect you, and you could come forward with who you are.
If you're the doc, you'll want to keep quiet so scum doesn't get you.
If you're either scum, you don't want to come forward.

Now lets assume we don't lynch you (at this point likely). On the grounds that if you don't get nightkilled, you'll look suspicious because that points due scum. However, any scum around could not kill you if you are pro-town, in the hope that we'll lynch you day 2.

Am I the only one thinking that you witholding this information is lose/lose for the town? And if I'm right in this analysis, why aren't you offering the information?

Now if you're pro-town, why would you claim to have information on who the mafia may be? I don't have any information on who the mafia may be. It kinda defeats the object of the game if I did...

@vikingfan: There's always something to be said about any given discussion. I'm sure you've some opinion on what's been going on other than "don't outguess the mod". You know, on the grounds that that isn't the current topic of discussion, which is now leaning towards "how scummy

you

are". With the current consensus seeming to be "quite".

So have you any thoughts on this topic?


I also find it very interesting how everyone has said (to the effect of): "I'm happy with what I've said"

This is a little pointless when there's no decision yet, as it just means the game goes nowhere until a deadline is imposed, at which point everyone goes "but we're not ready yet". So lets talk so that Aelyn doesn't decide to impose a deadline, as then we'd probably mislynch due to not knowing anything about anyone, and having to pick it all up really quickly.

[Changling bob]

Bob, you just need to realize that there is a very

VALID and GOOD

reason for my posts. I'm

TRYING

to get a certain reaction.

Subtle doesn't work for some of us, does it? Or... Maybe it's because you want to know what you're up against.

As for Emp.. for now, I find your reactions grounded. So I will

Unvote: Tyger

I wish the majority of you already knew how I played Mafia. You'd be able to pick up on my cues.

Witholding this info, Bob, is win/win for the town. I promise you. I know my role. I know how to play my role. Methinks you ask too much.

Vote: Bob

*reacts*


According to my admittedly limited experience of mafia, there are few times when withholding information is good for the town, with the exception of doc.

[logic]LML is withholding information.
Withholding information (usually) means scum or doc.
Hence, LML is (probably) either scum or doc.
If LML is not scum, he is probably doc, and hence will have a huge target on his back tonight.[/logic]

Now, as far as my logic goes, I'd rather know what I'm up against, if it's all the same to you, as it means that the town is going to be at an advantage, due to, you know, knowing what they're up against.

Now you've said you'll talk if there ends up a bandwagon on you, and I'm tempted to start one to get you to talk. But really, if you've got pro-town information, starting a bandwagon on you is a bad idea, as scum will jump on to try and get you lynched before you get a chance to talk.

So please excuse me if I'm being naive about what you're talking about, but I just don't buy it. Going back to my logic above, you're probably either doc or scum, and out of these, only scum are going to know who scum are...

[Changling bob]

<snip>bob:
I’m not ready to assume it’s as simple as “scum or doc”, but I agree with your general point.<snip>

I realise I'm oversimplifying, but "unprotectable power role or scum" doesn't really have the same ring to it.

I'll put it to you simply...

Yes: I know I'm bring attention to myself.
Yes: I know I'm doing it.
Yes: I have a power role.
Yes: My power role has more value this way. Trust me on this.

If you want to allow the Mafia the upper hand, go ahead and try to make me claim. You won't be happy.

So, you want to bring attention to yourself as having a power role (and presumably a pro-town one), and yet won't claim as that way the mafia get the upper hand? Surely they have all the advantage they need already, as they can just kill you tonight and be done with it. I'm now officially confused. Where's the advantage to not telling us?

[Changling bob]

For what it is worth, I am not in favour of LML revelaing anything more about his role at this stage. I'm a bit nervous about Changling Bob's repeated attempts to extract information from him.<snip>

Sorry if I appear over eager, but as far as I know, generally withholding information is not good for town.

But then I'm paranoid and would rather have the info to work with.

Meh, I'll drop for now if we have more pressing matters.

Like, for example, vikingfan's distinct lack of posting.....

[Changling bob]

I suppose I should claim now...

You're right, I am Enjolras, I am a mason with vikingfan.

I can also recruit new people into the mason group and/or incite revolution (whatever that might mean) at night.

As MeMe said, I was trying to draw attention away from vikingfan, but my points still stand.

Is it time for a mass roleclaim, or should we stay as we are for now? Or should just some people claim, for example Cosette, who presuably has a verifiable role.

[Changling bob]

If you're asking about the whole "send Eponine searching" thing, I don't know as it's part of vikingfan's role.

Everything in my role is in my claiming post.

[Changling bob]

<snip>I can’t see why you would reveal the “incite revolution” ability if it were anti-town, but I’ll admit that I find it slightly ominous. I don’t think you should reveal what it is, though.<snip>

I

don't know what the ability is, and I'm unwilling to use it as it sounds like it may be potentially dangerous for the town.

Question: Did you recruit vikingfan, or were you initially linked together?

We were initially linked.

In this case, we don't know if this means a Pro-Town win or not. Perhaps if the Masons win, BOTH the Mafia and the Town lose...?

My role clearly states I win when the town wins.

I don't know what happens if I try to recruit scum, but I'd rather avoid doing so if at all possible

FoS: gootentag and LordKrishna

for exactly the same reason as Mr Stoofer.

I'm going to hang back on voting either until they say something or one becomes more apparently scummy than the other.

[Changling bob]

1 - they are lying about their ability and are scum,
2 - they are telling the truth about their roles and are town,
3 - they are telling the truth about their roles and are scum,

As Mr Stoofer pointed out, if we were anti-town, claiming would be a really bad plan as it would mean that as soon as one of us is killed, the other will get lynched.

I agree that with this on the town side, the scum side probably has some advantage we haven't heard about yet, but that can only be left to the realms of speculation for now.

[Changling bob]

<snip>(For that matter, then why wasn’t anyone recruited last night?)<snip>

I didn't want to recruit a scum, which random recruiting could have done. I didn't get many times to log on while we were in night 1. From what I did discuss with vikingfan, he said he had some kind of cop role. I thought that if each night we investigated someone, then if they're town we recruit them, and if they're scum we move to lynch them. As the recruiting would have to be delayed by a night, I didn't want to strike out at random incase we ended up with scum in our midsts, who if they didn't get investigated may have ended up hidden under our noses until the endgame.

[Changling bob]

Sorry about the lack of postingness, but Easter and all that...

Now I'm going back on what I said earlier (about not metagaming), however, some things that seem appropriate:

<snip>If they're both pro-town, their powers are probably dangerous. Perhaps if Eponine finds Cosette, Ep dies (as she did in book). Perhaps if they incite a revolution, something horrible happens...I have to guess that what seems like strength is actually danger or the game's out of whack. If only one of them is town, well -- their powers could just be "as is," but benefiting the scum as much as they do the town.<snip>

I fully agree with this. I was not aware of the Eponine/Cosette dying thing, having not read the book, but it makes sense. I think that given the power of masons plus recruiting, plus only one person died last night (given that we weren't lucky with roleblockers or anything) does seem far too powerful. If there are pro-town roles with anti-town abilities (ie, vikingfan's searching and my incite revolution), this would balance it a little (or a lot) if we didn't know until it was too late.

Also, I agree with a lot of what EmpTyger says in his last post.

At the moment, I think the most suspicious people are LML and LordKrishna. As EmpTyger says, LML is very reluctant to claim or say anything about his role, until talk of the mason group shows up, when he's perfectly willing to jump out with half a claim with his character. I'm not going to go as far as saying he's an SK, but his actions seem very odd.

LordKrishna, you seem to be jumping at the slightest noise that might not be good, even after it's been explained (several times).

I'm still not willing to vote anyone, but I'd like to see what LML has to say about his claim/role/starting information/anything else he might have to say.

[Changling bob]

LoudmouthLee, I personally do not believe this claim.

Before this claim it was mentioned how powerful the town must be, due to there being two masons. If your claim is true, as vikingfan points out, the town is far too powerful.

There's also the issue of us not making you claim, followed by you coming out with your role unprompted. This seems a little incongruous (not that I can spell incongruous).

In addition to this, in [158]:

Triple post- Posting elsewhere and not here? Mainly because I feel the conversations here have been relatively hogwash and running me around in circles. I'm not going to post for the sake of posting. I'll post when I have something to say.

Surely if we're talking hogwash, you should (a) come and point that out, (b) explain why we are, and (c) promote some other idea or something.

Having seen you seemingly contradict yourself several times in this thread about your role (that you brought up, tried to surpress, jumped up with a character claim, avoided claiming role, and now claiming), I now feel happy enough to place my first

Vote: LML

[Changling bob]

Sorry I've been away, but I've been on a trip the last few days and thought I would get internet access. I didn't, obv.

Now I've played up against this kind of thing before, and it really anoys me. It's even turned up in this thread before.

What am I talking about?

<snip>How does that explain any of your other behavior, any of the points of suspicion that have been raised against you? Let me list them again:

1) At the beginning of the game, you thought Javert was mafia. Later you say that your role leads you to suspect Javert is not mafia.
2) You refuse to answer questions about (1), claiming that you do not wish to reveal details of your role.
2a) You still refuse after your role is revealed.
2b) What you have revealed does not contain any reason for (1) or (2).
3) You adamantly refuse to reveal any details of your role, but unprompted bring up information derived from your role as well as the claim that you are Cosette.
3a) You act though Cosette is so strong a claim that no one should suspect you, yet did not make this claim earlier, when initially pressured about your role.
4) You repeatedly lurk when the game is, according to you, going in the wrong direction. However, you do not attempt to move the direction of the game in another direction.
4a) ...except to attack those who are skeptical of you based on the unanswered (1) through (4).
5) You vote vikingfan immediately after vikingfan unvotes you, announcing that he will test you tonight. If you are telling the truth, why suspect him?
[6) I personally am skeptical of your roleclaim]
[7) I personally am skeptical that the town could be as strong as everyone has thus far claimed] <snip>

And then;

Repeatedly lurk? I went a few days without posting. I promise you, Tyger, I'm one of the leaders in posts in this game.

As for your clarification... and, again, this is just my own rationale...

I decided to re-watch the movie version of Les Mis. A scene in particular that stood out to me was the "Master of the House" scene... the scene in which my role, Cosette, was THENARDIER'S own personal slave...

And no matter what.. no matter how hard they tried, they didn't bring her down too far.

I have not dismissed the fact that Javert may still be Mafia... but I don't know who else would be included...

I am worried, as well, about Marius and the revolution. Look at how the play ended.

We can't have that again.

Wait, what? You get handed a list of critisisms of your play so far, and then almost completly ignore them in the

very next post

, made seven hours later. They're what, invisible or something? Or do you not read what's being posted? Or am I just getting ranty about your play myself? (hint: option 3 is most likely)

Is there any chance you could explain

any

of the points EmpTyger has raised? You tried to answer point 4 about lurking, but failed, as you offer no explanation as to why you gave no input over the couple of days you didn't post, despite the fact that you say that the conversation was going the wrong way. You also have thrown away a line to answer 1, saying you aren't sure. You were pretty sure he was, then that he wasn't. Did you think at all before claiming originally he was scum?

And there's your response to the question I posted about lurking. I listen to what's going on. I also post. These two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Now the other thing is, you appear to have gone OMGUS mad. I'm

sure

this is bad play. If everyone went arround voting everyone who thought they might be suspicious, we'd never get anywhere. I'm sure one way to stop people from voting you, and to make them think you're less suspicious is to, you know, answer the things they find suspicious about you, especially if they list them out, with numbers, just before you post[/hint]

Now the actual claim, MeMe says she can buy your claim. Logically, yes the way you have posted is a good way to use that role. However,

exactly the same play

could be used by scum to good effect. This, combined with your complete inability to satisfactorially (is that a word?) answer our critisisms of your play is why I don't believe you. My vote sticks on you untill if and when you answer all of EmpTyger's points above.

[/rant]

*takes deep breaths*

LordKrishna: You say that our mason group is probably a whacko. As odd as it may seem, I agree. I have an ability that starts a revolution, and from what I've read about revolutions, they tend to be bloody affairs with plenty of people dying. Someone else pointed out that in the book, when Eponine finds Cosette, she dies. I am (fairly) certain that the abilities we have will probably have negative side effects, especially if we have any other power roles, as town is argueably too powerful.

Mr. Stoofer: Regarding the information you claim to have over which characters may be mafia, I'd like to know how you have this information without being scum yourself. However, considering the current situation (ie, my feelings in the first part of this post), I'll wait for now. I also agree that a character claim now would not be the best thing we could do. The last few posts regarding this have seem reasonable, and neither you nor gootentag (nor MeMe) really seems to be scummy because of this.

Another thought on the power of the town. When people are saying the town is too strong, I assume tat they are taking their own roles into account. If two masons, plus (possibly) an unnightkillable townie are too powerful, this indicates that everyone else is vanilla townie (or scum obviously). Now I'm not asking anyone to say anything about this specifically refering to themselves (ie, don't say "I'm power and I think.." unless you want to), but if there are other power roles, do we consider that there are several vanillas (there's at least one (Seol)), or other powers, or both, or other? Knowing Aelyn, I'd say other, with more trippy abilities of unknown result and/or alignment. If we're working just off what we've been given so far, we don't really have much room left for doc/cop/vig without the game being dangerously unbalanced, unless trippy abilities feature.

MeMe: Here, have an April's fool block of cheese. It might make you feel better for being made a fool. And while your at it, will you kick yourself in the teeth so I don't have to?

[Changling bob]

OK, I wish to publicly appologise to MeMe for the remark in my last post. You may have notied a small hint of negativity in the rest of my post, and that may have spilt into what should have been a gentle prod in the 'what are you doing' direction.

Next, the comment on my lurking, I think by LML. From Wednesday to Friday, I was on a trip (which I think Aelyn was aware of), and thought I may have got an internet connection. I didn't. I just haven't managed to get online recently all that much, mostly as I'm currently on half term from school, whereas normally I would be on most lunchtimes to see what's happened.

On to the important stuff:

EmpTyger: I am wary of your claim as a doctor. Given the pro-town claims, the scum roles must be ridiculously strong to balance out. However, for now my suspicions are elsewhere.

MeMe: As other people have pointed out, you have been inconsistant with your responses to speculation, and have jumped on EmpTyger after the deadline got put on, while before that you were posting in a following the joke kinda way.

vikingfan: What's with you're voting EmpTyger and then unvoting him straight away?

LordKrishna: You saying about vikingfan dying overnight. Some thoughts on this: If what was said earlier in the thread is correct (I don't know the book), Eponine dies when she finds Cosette. If this is right, and Eponine is mafia, the oddness of ability vikingfan's ability disappears, as it is pro-town. This then leads to more of the "Is town too good?" problems, but there you go. I'm also a little unsure if vikingfan has to pick a person to send as Eponine, or if Eponine is just sent.

Finally, if vikingfan does wake up dead tomorrow, it could just be he was the mafia target.

[meaty bit]
LML: I shall happily remove lines from EmpTyger's list until all of them are gone. As stated in my last post, my vote stays on you until all of them are answered. For continuity, removed critisims will be highlighted in red.

<snip>How does that explain any of your other behavior, any of the points of suspicion that have been raised against you? Let me list them again:

1) At the beginning of the game, you thought Javert was mafia. Later you say that your role leads you to suspect Javert is not mafia.

2) You refuse to answer questions about (1), claiming that you do not wish to reveal details of your role.
2a) You still refuse after your role is revealed.
2b) What you have revealed does not contain any reason for (1) or (2).

3) You adamantly refuse to reveal any details of your role,

but unprompted bring up information derived from your role as well as the claim that you are Cosette.

3a) You act though Cosette is so strong a claim that no one should suspect you, yet did not make this claim earlier, when initially pressured about your role.

4) You repeatedly lurk when the game is, according to you, going in the wrong direction. However, you do not attempt to move the direction of the game in another direction.
4a) ...except to attack those who are skeptical of you based on the unanswered (1) through (4).
5) You vote vikingfan immediately after vikingfan unvotes you, announcing that he will test you tonight. If you are telling the truth, why suspect him? <snip>

And why do you think that myself and EmpTyger are mafia? Vikingfan and me I could understand, or EmpTyger and [insert not me or vikingfan here], but my role has been verified by vikingfan, and will be confirmed as soon as either of us dies (if we do).
[/meaty bit]

So allow me once again to say sorry MeMe, and

confirm vote: LML

And @EmpTyger: I nearly crossposted you. Yay for firefox tabs!

[Changling bob]

<snip>I am surely innocent based on my repeated attempts to get EmpTyger lynched (which, before you ask, was based entirely on what he was posting).<snip>

I think that, in confirmed is a

strong

word to use here. Although it appears as though you are pro town, just because you pressed for a scum's lynch doesn't prove that you are.

Concerning the end of yesterday:

I logged on and checked the thread a couple of posts after MeMe counter-claimed. Up to this point I was more inclined to believe EmpTyger, but the counter-claim made me

much

less sure, and I printed out the entire thread to review in terms of 'who is scum'. Then EmpTyger got lynched. Then I reread the thread.

Currently, I am in favor of a mass roleclaim, but then I think I'm a little biased, seeing as I've already claimed everything about me.

At the moment, I want to reread the entire thread again, to see why anyone would want to go after vikingfan, when it would appear that other people are perhaps more likely targets (read: I would've targeted other people if I were scum, which I have been proven not to be by vikingfan's death.)

And I agree about LordKrishna claiming first...

In other news, I used neither of my abilities last night, as vikingfan and myself agreed that any results today would be the results of his finding Cosette, due to the possibily-not-pro-town-abilityness of it all.

[Changling bob]

@MeMe: Why should gootentag's ability have changed overnight? If he couldn't vote yesterday, why shuold he be able to today?

@gootentag: Can you actually not vote, as this is a verifiable ability. If you cannot vote, then if you post a vote on anyone then we get a postcount, it wouldn't show as a vote. If you are unwilling to vote because of some ability, then obviously this plan doesn't work.

@LordKrishna: Why are you against a mass name-claim. The same is true of any game you can think of; that the last people, if scum, could make up something that hasn't already been used. It's a calculated risk to take, and it gives ideas on whose name is false. If a name claim fails, we could then move onto a roleclaim and see if there are any inconsitencies between roles and names, or roles and roles, or anything else. And why should Eponine be scum if vikingfan died? If she killed vikingfan, then wouldn't there have been another death from the mafia from their night choices, rather than just relying on what townies decided to do?

[Changling bob]

Well the claims so far are... interesting.

Will post further thoughts once Mr Stoofer and MeMe have claimed.

[Changling bob]

MeMe or Mr. Stoofer, do either of you have abilities, as all of myself, gootentag and LordKrishna have claimed abilities as well as roles.

[Changling bob]

I claimed and used my ability yesterday when I sent the game into early twilight by finishing off EmpTyger myself. Remember?

Except that the death scene shows LordKrishna, who voted last, finishing off EmpTyger, not you.

Anyway, this is neither here nor there at the moment as I believe you for now.

So assuming no-one is lying (which someone must be), town started with: two masons (one with a narrow cop ability, one who can recruit), a (variably accurate) cop and vig combi role, a self-protecting townie, a 'daytime doctor' who can't vote, a day-killer, and two townies.

Logically then, scum started with two mafia, plus the self-protecting townie dies when a specific townie dies.

I think this is too powerful for the town (beyond the fact that there's one person more above than actually in the game). Now I realise that I could be wrong, but I feel that one of the more power roles is probably lying, as this does balance the game more than it is.

At the moment no-one sticks out enough to me enough to vote.

[Changling bob]

I admit that it does look like I could be scum. However, there is a method that could be used to prove my innocence. If I am not to be lynched, before we cast a lynching vote (or MeMe using her ability), between us we pick a person for me to attempt to recruit. If I recruit them then they are bound to get message telling them so, which would vindicate me, as I'm sure this is not something that would happen with a scum group that is trying to kill all the townies, or at least not in the same scum group. Also, if I them am killed in my recruit attempt, we have a large hint towards who is scum.

Admittedly this could mean that I am a second scum group, but I think the game would be too small for one, besides the point that I'm not.

Mr Stoofer, I realise that you have not claimed an ability yet. I accounted for this in my above discussion. If you have a role, then almost all of the original town is power, which doesn't really balance out with scum. I'm not convinced that you are scum by what you've said, but then I'm not convinced about anyone, so meh

[Changling bob]

@MeMe: I can see where you're coming from about my possibly being scum. However, if I were scum, wouldn't I have not claimed when vikingfan were up for a lynch? It would be easy enough to deny all knowledge of the masonry, and then I would be one townie down. And if I were a scum group recruiting, wouldn't I have been doing that every night so far? I mean, if I recruit into a scum group, there would be almost no disadvantage to recruiting every night, yet I have never used any ability that I have (besides my logic and voting skillz). I realise that there is no real way to prove beyond all doubt that I'm not scum without me dying, so if we can find some way that I can prove my innocence without me dying then by all means I'll try it out.

And I would also prefer for Mr Stoofer to fully claim so that we have a more thorough set of information to work with, evn though someone will be lying.

I think that the idea that LordKrishna came up with a very non-commital investigation result that could be taken any way, however I agree with MeMe that lynching our only claimed cop is a bad move.

[Changling bob]

Given what people have said, I'll admit crap logic in 308. But I've got nothing to prove I'm not scum, and as opinion appears to be steering my way, I'd rather say something that might work, rather than nothing which obviously wouldn't. Another thought: If I were scum, wouldn't I have just claimed vanilla mason, rather than saying I can recruit, or that I can encite revolution? I don't think I even mentioned this to vikingfan before I claimed in the thread, as I didn't get the chance due to a short night deadline, so he couldn't have pointed out the hole in my claim if I left it out.

Anyway, Mr Stoofer, please claim your abilities. Character-wise, your claim seems scummiest, but let's not try to outguess the mod and all that jazz.

And responding to Mr Stoofer's point that my and EmpTyger's posts indicate that we are partners; I was more willing to believe 'I made a joke on April Fool's day, derf' than 'this is blatently a huge tell' (even if the second did turn out to be right). Once MeMe counter-claimed EmpTyger's claim, I was no longer sure what to think, and decided to go back through the thread. Although I only managed to do this after EmpTyger was lynched, it struck me how many people thought EmpTyger was scummy towards the beginning of the game, and I would have changed my vote had I logged on before the lynch.

[Changling bob]

Might as well get this over with first.

<snip>
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.
<snip>

To go through your points in order:
--In what way would Enjolras be connected to Thenardier in a scum based capacity?
--I don't know what happens if I recruit scum. I'd rather not try it out if it's all the same to you
--I made a mistake. I laughed at a joke. Then you claimed and I didn't get time between your claim and the lynch to voice my suspicions.
--Well if you're willing to accept that you are, in fact, an imbecile, then I'll happily treat you like one. As is, I'll deal with your arguements as I see them.

I agree that there's no way for you to tell that I haven't used my recruitment ability, but then there's no way for any of us to confirm who anybody else used their ability on, or even what they are.

But anyways, at the moment, I think LordKrishna tends to be doing a lot of backpedaling. What with all the arguement with MeMe, you seem to be digging yourself into a hole. I can't pick up any individual thing that you've said to be especially scummy, but as a whole they seem to be leaning that way. You also seem to be happy to throw a vote around when no-one else has bothered. Now personally, I don't find anything wrong with Mr Stoofer's post, nor do I find any indication of him saying that Mme. Thenardier is in the game. He does however suggest that the flavour text of his role implys that a 'government agent' may be scum.
Now, I'm not saying placing a first vote is scummy, but it seems a rather desperate tactic, especially when you consider the vote is for someone that appears to have pointed The Finger™, your way, just like the 'lets lynch someone and see what happens'.

Now the question is, are you volunteering?

[Changling bob]

<snip>I know others disagree, but I could easily accept a set up with 2 independent SKs, namley Thernadier and Javert. That would make me a standard doc and would make perfect sense. It would explan why there is only one Thernadier in the game. And it would explain LK's rather odd statements of late.

I think this is what I was trying to say towards the end of my last post, only less eloquently. Setting up a role to protect against both Thernardier and 'government agents' seems to me to be a very interesting way to have a doc who isn't just a doc. I'm not certain whether there's any chance of Thernardier and Javert being scum together, but wasn't it EmpTyger who brought up the idea of twin SKs earlier?

[Changling bob]

<snip>I know others disagree, but I could easily accept a set up with 2 independent SKs, namley Thernadier and Javert. That would make me a standard doc and would make perfect sense. It would explan why there is only one Thernadier in the game. And it would explain LK's rather odd statements of late.

I think this is what I was trying to say towards the end of my last post, only less eloquently. Setting up a role to protect against both Thernardier and 'government agents' seems to me to be a very interesting way to have a doc who isn't just a doc. I'm not certain whether there's any chance of Thernardier and Javert being scum together, but wasn't it EmpTyger who brought up the idea of twin SKs earlier?

[Changling bob]

<snip>
--because they were both on the wrong side of the law (and I realize that Valjean fits here too)

From what I'm aware of, didn't most of the characters we started out with fit into this category?

[Changling bob]

The Bishop of Digne, Cosette, and Javert don't.

Six scum to three town seems unbalanced to me

Another thought as to LordKrishna's claim. Why can't he be scum and cop? Assuming for a moment that it isn't just a plain 'scum|non-scum' cop, it would be beneficial for the scum to be able to find out who a possible doc/cop/vig/whatever could be. (I'm bringing this up now since I've just built a random setup generator (for use later), and this happens from time to time on it.)

And besides, you've just responded to a whole bunch of questions and said very little. A serious amount of fluff, but very little that actually answers the questions raised.

[Changling bob]

*rephrases*

LordKrishna could be both scum and cop if he were a role investigator. This would benefit the scum group (and possibly balance the town) as they could hunt out docs/cops/whatever.

[Changling bob]

Meh.

I'm just trying to come up with reasons that LordKrishna had such a good handle on gootentag's role.

[Changling bob]

LordKrishna:
From your earlier post:

<snip>ChanglingBob: "You also seem to be happy to throw a vote around when no-one else has bothered. "
K: This is because I think that we need to lynch scum to win the game. A proactive solution.

This is true.

gootentag: "It is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists."
K: His claim indicates that she exists. This is the only evidence we have. I don't believe his claim. Therefore, he has to prove himself to me.

This seems almost political in its answering of a different question to the one asked. You're earlier point is being contradicted, yet you don't really try to defend it, you say something else instead. Just because Mr Stoofer's claim mentions the Thernadiers, it doesn't mean that Mme Thernadier is in the game, and saying it is one person's responsibility to find scum is wrong: that's the job of the whole town.

gootentag: "You washing your hands of finding scum is both suspicious and ironic for a claimed cop."
K: I'm not 'washing my hands of finding scum'. I'm voting for who I think fits that bill.

You are washing your hands of finding scum, as you are claiming it is Mr Stoofer's job to find it. And then voting him also completely contradicts the point of saying he must find scum, as this leaves him less chance to anyway.

Mr. Stoofer: "I don't think that the he even gave a single reasons why I might be scum."
K: It's because your claim just doesn't make sense to me.

A claim not making sense does not make the claimer scum.

Let's look at the claim. <snip of analysis of claim>

Mr Stoofer is (essentially) claiming that he is a doc. What is not to understand? I think you are probably trying to misconstrue what he said to bring suspicion against him. And failing.

I, like Mr Stoofer, am approaching placing a vote on you.

Also,

MeMe, I would like to know your views.

Seconded

[Changling bob]

Still - after all that - I'm afraid...very afraid...that Changling bob's the remaining scum and that Lord Krishna has just been tossing red herrings left and right.

What is it you find so scummy about me? The last set of points you posted I answered, so can you explain so I can defend myself please.

[Changling bob]

Hot damn, crossposting. Any chance you can answer my question Mr Stoofer?

[Changling bob]

The last set of points you posted I answered, so can you explain so I can defend myself please.

Same stuff, Cb. Yes, you "answered" -- but that doesn't mean I've bought your answers.

Might as well get this over with first.

<snip>
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.
<snip>

To go through your points in order:
--In what way would Enjolras be connected to Thenardier in a scum based capacity?
--I don't know what happens if I recruit scum. I'd rather not try it out if it's all the same to you
--I made a mistake. I laughed at a joke. Then you claimed and I didn't get time between your claim and the lynch to voice my suspicions.
--Well if you're willing to accept that you are, in fact, an imbecile, then I'll happily treat you like one. As is, I'll deal with your arguements as I see them.

I agree that there's no way for you to tell that I haven't used my recruitment ability, but then there's no way for any of us to confirm who anybody else used their ability on, or even what they are.

--As I've said, I don't think that the scum group has to be a

natural

fit.
--I'd rather you not try to recruit at all...and I'm stuck on the possibility that you're scum and recruiting gives you

another

scum at this point. But, regardless, you didn't answer the question about what

might

happen if you recruit scum -- you just dodged it with an "I'm not gonna"
--So you say. But, from my perspective, it was you who gave legs to the "joke" by taking up the cause so vehemently. The only part of ET's post series that I interpreted as a true joke was the one in which he actually

said

"April Fool's" (the one I said "heh" to) -- I thought he was trying to lighten the mood after his horrible blunder. It looked to me as though you breathed life into his defense when you attacked me -- then ET saw a glimmer of hope and ran with it.
--And that one's not an answer...it's a comeback.

But I've obviously not made up my mind, so please keep talking.

--Agreed. But this is true of any of us.
--I'd rather I tried not to recruit at all at this point. And as to what

might

happen, your guess is as good as mine. I would guess that I would die, but then again, anything

might

happen.
--OK, so I made a huge blunder. I had no reason not to believe him until you claimed. Granted this isn't the best way to play mafia, but this is only my fourth game. In my eyes, jumping on him with no real evidence was more scummy than making a joke. Once you claimed, I obviously did have a reason not to believe him, but, as I've said, didn't have time to post.
--Personally, I know very few people who are imbeciles. If there's a hole in my logic, and it's pointed out to me, then its far better to admit my mistake and explain it than to continue argueing for flawed logic. If you did point out a hole in my logic that wasn't actually there, then yes, I would defend my point, but this isn't what happened.


@LordKrishna: Sure, I have no anti-town powers. Would you like me to start the revolution now or later? I don't know what this ability does, but the fact that revolutions are usually bloody occurances in which many people die, I figure this isn't going to be the most pro-town ability in the world, and furthermore would in fact suggest that it may benefit scum...

And where's the downside to your ability? You claim to be a cop/vig combination role. Admitedly there is a roleblocker for you, but surely any duel power role is very strong, and this particular combination all the more so.

And you haven't answered Mr Stoofer's question about Mme Thernadier.

[Changling bob]

MeMe, I'm heading towards voting for LordKrishna. I'd really appreciate your reasoned views on why CB is the best candidate. Of the reasons you have given so far, the only one I found convincing was his support for EmpTyger on day 1. But I think that LordKrishna's attitutide was no less suspicious.<snip>

I too would like to know why you consider me the best candidate. I realise I did a similar thing on day 1, chasing LML, but I posted my reasons with every post, whereas you have said you find me suspicious, but give me no way to defend myself. Even the last list of points you gave me, you didn't comment on my responses until I prompted you, and now when I counter these responses, it gets ignored again.