Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[gootentag]

Forgive my posting in another thread... didn't see this game was up yet. Sorry.

I have seen the musical twice, seen three diferent film adaptations in two diferent languages, and began reading the book once. I grew disheartened as I was doing background work on a production of the show I had been cast in and the theatre closed due to legal issues and a general lack of funding. But anyway.

Thenardiers are probably scummy as a given. I am prone to think that Javert may be a SK or Godfather. SK fits because he is not "in league" with the Thenardiers, Godfather fits as he would apear to be "Above the law." There are more convoluted claims that I could immagine such as something happening if Javert targets Valjean or vice versa, but that is neither here nor there.

Content to withold my vote for now. May add one later.

[gootentag]

[quote=Changling Bob]
If there are two killing groups, starting with 9 players, worst case scenario:
Night 1: 2 players die, 7 left
Day 1: 1 player lynched, 6 left
Night 2: 2 players die, 4 left

By this point, the mafia must surely be in majority, town loses.
[/quote]

This is mistaken. Half is not a majority, and I've seen it work out before in a situation with a mafia of 2, a Serial Killer, and a townie of some sort being left. If a Day two mafia lynch occurs (which is unlikely but possible,) the remaining mafia and the SK could kill each other and the town would win. Like I said, unlikely, but possible.

As for the Javert implications, I guess we can put them aside for now. Without either him or another cop showing up dead or alive, it's all speculation anyway. And assumptions can lead to bad things - like in Harry Potter Mafia where it was later discovered that Harry, Hermione, and Ron were the mafia. (NOTE: I haven't read the game, just heard it referenced several times before as a classic case of "Don't outguess the Mod.") I mean, it's

possible

that Jean Valjean - prisoner 24601 - is scum, right? I mean, he is a convicted theif and robber, amirite?

[gootentag]

Whew! It seems like there's been a lot of speculation flying every which way about the setup:, the numbers, the roles, and such, but nobody has mentioned the possibility of the Mafia being the underworld figures -- Montparnasse, Claquesous, Gueuelemer, and Babet.

Not having read the book in it's entirety, who are these people?

Meme, I am interested in your insistance on voting for me, but it's hard to defend myself when I don't know why I need to. The comments on Valjean etc. were possibilities, not even neccecarily speculation. While Javert inherently seems more likely to be scum, I am agreeing with you that we need to keep an open mind about potential claims.

[gootentag]

Reguarding the situation you mentioned in the first quote, I've looked through some of the older games and can't seem to find it. It was alot easier to find stuff like that when you could just look at the list of games and see who won in the thread titles. I'm pretty sure I have seen it, though. Most likely in the Theme Park games (not that that narrows it down a whole lot, but those are the ones I've read through a handful of.)

In the second quote, I was attempting to reinforce the prior statement about speculation with an example that naything is possible. I could have said Eponine is a modified SK out to kill Cosette as well. The point was, you can make endless arguments like that. I wasn't endorsing the Jean Valjean one in particular.

[gootentag]

Prior to your posting ET, I was the last post in the thread - I had said what I thought/felt I needed to in the prior post. While I agree that this game is kind of stalling out due to lack of participation, I for one find it slightly unnerving that you're digging through everyone elses posts in

other games

to further your suspicions. Let it suffice that people are lurky because they aren't posting here, not because they're posting elswhere.

[gootentag]

I have no ability to corroborate vikingfan's role either.

[gootentag]

If you have the power to send Eponine, do you know who she is as well, or is she perhaps an NPC?

[gootentag]

gootentag:
By denying characters/roles you aren’t, you’re increasing the chances of the mafia guessing correctly. Assuming that you’re not mafia yourself.

Point taken - what I meant to say is more along the lines of, "I am not one of the people who can corroborate vikingfan's claim in the manner he implied two people already could."

[gootentag]

According to the roles database, a cult is defined as:

The Cult recruits players into something like a Mason group. In one variation, the Cult is on the Town's side, while in another the Cult is a separate evil group trying to take over the Town. In either variation, the Cult is successful when recruiting a player on the Town side, while a Cult member dies if the Cult attempts to recruit a Mafia member.

This may be the "incite a riot" clause - if a Mafia member is targeted someone in the cult/mason group gets killed, which seems to fit the bill for inciting a riot. Either that or the mason group can only add members with certain roles (i.e. Cosette, Eponine, maybe Valjean) and someone else will get killed if added. Either way, I reserve some suspicion because this seems to be a broken mechanic in such a small game.

[gootentag]

At the moment, I am not persuing anybody. I merely stated something I thought might be a valid concern or possibility for the setup. It's not outguessing the mod, it's theorizing what we might be up against. That's how this game is played, right?

Like the Wiki said, a cult can be pro town - I just see it being too strong a mechanic in so small a setup to be viable in either situation: scum or not. That means they are either lying and probably scum or the setup is unbalanced in favor of whichever side they are on. I am by no means ruling out the second possibility as a pro-town cult, but reviewing those three choices:

1 - they are lying about their ability and are scum,
2 - they are telling the truth about their roles and are town,
3 - they are telling the truth about their roles and are scum,

each one is a possibility. I'm not comfortable with that mechanic in a game this size is all. It seems too much to define the outcome of the game in and of itself. That's why I was voicing my concerns. If anyone has any further possible leads, I would be just as prone to scrutinize them the same way.

[gootentag]

gootentag:
You don’t seem to be saying anything *wrong*, but your only contributions feel like you’re only here to merely play devil’s advocate. Which, while still of value, still feels incomplete, like you’re trying to avoid committing to anything. You somehow have 2 votes on you, yet you haven’t even cast a vote yet.

I am not attempting to play devil's advocate here. I admit to being a less than frequent poster, but I think one of the reasons is that one of my biggest pet peeves in Mafia in general is people who post to avoid "lurking" and say nothing. If my contributions seem contrary in nature, it is most likely that I feel more compelled to voice them if I feel I'm saying something that hasn't been said.

In addition, I am genuinely concerned about the possibilities of the claimed recruiting masonry. It strikes me as too overpowered to be plausible. However,

Is there a way Town can tell Masons to promise not to recruit anyone, as a show of good faith?

This also does not strike me as a good idea. If there are no adverse effects to a townie being recruited (per a textbook "townie cult,") there is no reason they should not recruit tonight. If a revolution ensues, it will atleast serve to validate their claims and (sticking with the defined "cult") it probably means whomever they targeted is scum, which hands us tomorrow's lynch anyway. Their silence neither confirms nor denies their claim, and while a cop could check one of them out to verify/shoot down the other, there are most likely better targets to investigate.

I’m not thrilled to cast a vote for anyone based on any of my current reasonings, but I’ve got to start somewhere. And since it’s already been started on you, I may as well continue there. I can't speak for MeMe's reasoning, and I don't yet agree with LML's, but I think you can at least address my concerns.

Vote: gootentag

FOS:EmpTyger

. Another thing that constantly irks me is bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning. Continuing to vote for someone primarily because they currently have the most votes strikes me as inherrently scummy. If you think I'm scum, by all means vote and tell me why so that I may clarify my stance or arguments (and even occasionally change them,) but you can't logically defend myself and it becomes futile to even try.

3) LML was extremely evasive about claiming- but in [119] revealed that he is Cosette unprompted.

This is indeed interesting.

Does anyone know of any precedent for a “booby-trapped ability”? That is, an optional ability possessed by a protown player which has an antitown effect?

I have seen a few, including:
1) A doctor who has a 10% chance of "malpractice," killing their patient.
2) A cop who views certain townie roles as scum (not naive, paranoid, etc.)
3) Townies that randomly kill someone voting for them if they are lynched,
4) A "paranoid gun owner" who kills anyone who targets him at night,
5) Vigilantes categorically fit that description...

Mind you, these more complex roles are more prevolent in larger games, where the town hypothetically has more "days" to figure things out. At this point everything other than the claims already made is unbased speculation and metagaming.

As for my non-voting status, I am aware of it and choosing to remain so for role based reasons.[/quote]

[gootentag]

Flavorwise, I find it ironic that Marius is voting for Cosette. Functionally, it is also worth taking note. Surely the two of you (masons) should have some clue as to Cosette's allignment, if not her role. I'm pretty sure the role exists, and in the absence of a counterclaim at this point, I figure the two of you would be most prone to believe it.

[gootentag]

*bump* to get this above all or the recently closed games.

[gootentag]

Un-night killable is one of the easyest claims for scum to make - it justifies them not dying after a false claim is made. In fact some mods (incl. Jeep) roll nightkill immunity in with apearing town into Godfather roles. In any event, if we have a vigilante they should probably hit LML tonight if he's still around. If his corpse turns up tomorrow, we know he was lying. If he's telling the truth we haven't lost anything other than a night 2 vig kill that may or may not have been productive anyway.

(I am also aware that he may be telling the truth about his ability and not about his role/alignment or that he may have some other way of circumventing a nightkill in the event that he was lying. Or that we hav no vigilantes. Sorry if this is seen as playing Devil's Advocate again )

[gootentag]

The only way your explaination of who the mafia are holds any weight is if they indeed are someone out of the blue, such as Valjean and Cosette. If "X" as you call him/her/them earlier includes Javert, the Thenardiers or the underground characters mentioned earlier, it seems to me that nobody would naturally claim a role who flavorwise is assumedly scummy - especially if it were correct. However, by stating that you know who the scum roles are, you have lost any power that knowing them gives you - nobody would lie about their roles except scum, and they know which roles to avoid (their own, obv.) You have killed any chances of bringing the mafia out of the woodwork with a true nameclaim, which (depending on who they are) may or may not have been a legitimate tactic.

IMHO however, you are not acting scummy just yet - this just came off to me as bad play. [/rant]

[gootentag]

But the rant itself seemed more than a little off to me. Gootentag starts by saying that Stoofer's plan could only work IF the scum are roles that are generally considered innocent...and, um, they very well

might

be, as far as anyone but Stoofer should know. I don't understand why gootentag would rant when he's obviously aware that there's a workable scenario (e.g., if Stoofer thinks his role tells him that, say, Fantine and Eponine are scum).

But if Stoofer is telling the truth, than it is no longer a workable scenario, because the scum would know to avoid claiming names Stoofer knows are scummy (their own.) The only good that can currently come out of the comments Mr. Stoofer has said in sum is a slight reassurance that (if Stoofer really does know who the scum roles are) that someone with a questionable character such as Javert or the Thenardiers can be more comfortable coming out if they are town. However, if he is lying or mistaken about his suspicions as to who the scum are, this may on the other hand be all the more dangerous. I think at this point it is useless to try and get a true nameclaim out of the scum if he's telling the truth.

It's true that no one is going to be eager to claim scummy-sounding names...but they may have been willing to claim innocent-sounding ones before before gootentag sounded off what could be interpreted as a warning.

[gootentag]

The above post(s) sum up relatively well what I was trying to say. The only thing I could add is that if Mr. S is scum himself, this would be an interesting attempt to put someone else's head on the block, and a way of validating his own claim, especially if he has one of the afforementioned "non-scummy" roles.

I too was surprised the Stoofer agreed with my analysis, and that raised an eyebrow for me as well. Mostly beacuse bad play, when confronted, typically dosn't admit to it or honestly doesn't realize it as bad at the time. Stoofer's reaction seemed more like backpedaling with a "yup, just a bad play - move along, nothing to see here" tone.

<snip> if you prefer to dismiss me with a roll of your eyes rather than to explore any possibility that there's logic behind the things I post, well -- that's certainly easier on you than typing out a sentence, eh?

I adressed the remainder of your post in full. The notion that I was acting as some kind of town crier for the scum, rushing to the top of the bell tower shouting, "Attention all mafia - do not reply to that post!" is what I found preposterous. (Hence the rolleyes.) However, since you seem to want a more in depth response on everything you say:

I was not signaling anything here, I was posting my reaction to what was said here in the thread. As opposed to discussing why other people have been posting in other threads or other "hogwash," I was attempting to analize other players actions. I felt there was value in what I had to say so I said it.

[gootentag]

While I agree that EmpTyger indeed looks pretty bad after the Thenardier claim, I think the Valjean claim can't be ignored either.

I also am interested in hearing from Mr. Stoofer in particular about both claims

- after all, he's the one who claims to have the inside track on who the scum roles are. Particularly if he nails Valjean as potentially scum.

My guess right now is that EmpTyger is possibly Valjean, is scum, and the actual ruse was the Thenardier claim. In light of Mr. Stoofers statements, perhaps he thought there was a snowball's chance in hell he could get away with Thenardier as it seems highly unlikely that anyone would refute it and Stoofer may be able to back it up if the Thenardiers are not the scum roles he seems to be aware of.

Major FOS: EmpTyger

[gootentag]

[Aelyn: I had trouble reaching the site today- some “domain not renewed” error? Could you be sensitive to that when considering the deadline?]

I ran into this as well. At this point, I don't think the deadline will be much of an issue, however.

[gootentag]

A townie cult/masonry is also ridiculously strong for the town. So is an unkillable Cosette. Doctor, however, seems to be one of the conventional roles I for one have never seen a game without. Furthermore, as nobody has yet refuted the name-claim, I am more prone to believe EmTyger's claim since Mr. Stoofer has also stated that Jean Veljean is at least not the scum he was hoping to weed out. A Les Mis based game would almost have to have a Valjean. That was again the basis for the statement about EmpTyger possibly being a scum Valjean. Flavorwise, I guess I can see how it might fit as a doctor per the description he wrote:

Valjean removes people from deadly situations such as abuse (Cosette), execution (Javert), death at the barricade (Marius), and being crushed by a cart (Fauchelevent). I save lives.

and since nobody has come foreward with a counterclaim as Valjean, I am prone to believe EmpTyger at this point, which seems to be back at square one.

[gootentag]

I'm assuming at this point the deadline is lifted like Aelyn said would happen if conversation picked up.

[gootentag]

MeMe: as stated before, I am not voting because of role based reasons. As for your claim, I am slightly suspicious, seeing as you were the one driving the bandwagon prior to EmpTyger's claim (the Valjean one, not the Thenardier April Fools[?] claim.) I fail to see why you did not come out with a claim sooner after EmpTyger's. It seems to me that you are a good enough player to know that if EmpTyger were lying, a legitimate counterclaim would have been the final nail in his coffin. Valjean, one way or the other, is most definately a catch for the scum if they can get him out of the way, which might have motivated a false claim out of you - getting him lynched today in exchange for your surefire lynch tomorrow. It also appears that you were trying to hold out and see if you could force the lynch before you claimed, thus possibly avoiding a trade and just getting a strict advantage instead. If you are lying and we lynch EmpTyger, then the scum have the precious day one lynch they almost need to survive in such a small game.

In short, it is obvious that you claimed in order to get EmpTyger lynched. The only question is wether you did it because you are indeed Valjean or because you believe he is Valjean.

At this point, I find you more suspect. But it is indeed a far cry from the "square one" I mentioned earlier.

[gootentag]

I appologize for being unclear - I cannot vote. While I understand your frustration (believe me...) I can only assume it serves to balance out some of the stronger power roles mentioned by other players. As for it making a majority harder to reach if I am one of 6 remaining townsfolk, it would make it nearly impossible to win as scum. It throws the entire endgame off from a numbers standpoint and makes it impossible to lead a charge against anyone else. I admit, it's not a role I'm particularly fond of, but I see how it fits in character and could be a balancing tool from a mod's perspective.

[gootentag]

At this point I agree that a name-claim may be in order, so I will go first, I guess, although I think it's ust me and Mr Stoofer who have not claimed characters yet - Lord Krishna claimed Eponine, didn't he? If you guys want me to hold off untill LordKrishna gets in here I can, though.

Especially if LordKrishna is Eponine, per the day 2 scene, I'm interested in what you have to say as you were listed as present at the shooting. Did you see anything? Were you involved? o.O

Right now,

FOS: Mr. Stoofer

- you are by no means "confirmed innocent." Often times scum point at each other, sometimes with a vengence, to try and avoid suspicion or divide a bandwagon against one or another.

As for possible reasons why scum may have gone after vikingfan - a masonry is self-preserving in that it's members know each other to be legitimate townsfolk. Particularly if you have (or had?) the ability to recruit, this is considerably threatning and they probably wanted to keep it under control as much as possible.
Cosette's death seems a moderator convention to circumvent the self-protecting role. Perhaps the game is more balanced than I was reading into it yesterday.

[gootentag]

Edit - "I will go first" should be "I can go first" -

Edit 2 - it's just me and Mr. Stoofer.

I missed this earlier -

FOS: LordKrishna

in addition to beeing present at the shooting, you apparently had Mr. Hugo's pistol from the lynch scene yesterday. It may be coincidental flavor writing, but I think it's worth discussing and taking note of.

[gootentag]

After doing an exhaustive search for Eponine throught the entire thread, I was indeed mistaken when I thought LordKrishna claimed Eponine, for which I appologise. I also admit that this debunks my theory of LordKrishna (who grabbed the pistol) neccecarily being Eponine (present at the shooting.) The Sword of Damoclese reference is mentioned metaphorically while the pistol was used to shoot in both instances - If I were correct about you claiming Eponine, I still believe it would have been a valid point.

I however, am not Eponine, and if I were, why would I have drawn attention to myself for bringing it up? I also note that while you were quick to throw the role back at me, you did not claim a role yourself and are against a mass claim. What are you hiding?

I didn't vote for EmpTyger for role based reasons - MY role, not his. Again, I can clarify if we agree on the mass-claim idea, but since you have been called out to come foreward first, I'll still hold off on mine until instructed to do otherwise.

[gootentag]

Ok, since the discussion seems to be leaning this way, I'll post a full claim - I am Monsieur Bienvenu, Bishop of Digne. Seeing the value of all human life, I am morally opposed to lynching - voting would result in a modkill. I can however, send in one name other than my own each night and protect that person from being lynched the following day.

From a numbers standpoint, I can see how my existance by itself can be seen as a liability for the town in that it screws up especially endgame voting. If we hit a dead end, lynching me might be a good idea just to raise the ratio of voting town players. However, I'm obviously not advocating this course of action beforehand...

[gootentag]

Missed LordKrishna's previous post - the only thing I can think of that I have done is that I covered for Valjean/lied to the officers pursuing him. I figured that was the basis for the lynch-proofing part of my ability, but have no idea why you would get mixed results like that.

[gootentag]

As far as male leaders are concerned, the only person that might clear would be Eponine at this point. Valjean as mayor fits, I the bishop fit, and Enjorlas could also be construed as fitting. Javert is a stretch, but he did infiltrate the baricade, right? Was he a person of any statue within the police force, such as chief? I mean, each could be considered a leader in some sense.

Right now I'm leaning towards a

FOS: Lord Krishna.

Especially if there is no Mme Thenardier, I'm not sold on Javert as a good guy. If there is one, then obviously someone is lying. Furthermore, his results on me are ambiguous enough to lead a lynch party but not strong enough that he couldn't back his way out next day when I turn out to be a townie.

[gootentag]

Night One I chose not to target anyone. Since we were on a blank slate, I didn't want my ability to "get in the way" of properly lynching scum. Unfortunately, last night, I figured that if LML was telling the truth, the only way he was going to get killed was if he got lynched, so I decided to target him. Sure enough, he's not getting lynched.

It is possible that I could announce my targets during twilight or something of that nature, but without a doctor claimed, I don't feel comfortable that this would avert the situation in the future.

[gootentag]

Wouldn't it have been awesome if Aelyn had made Jean Valjean and Thenardier the Mafia? Thematically, of course, it wouldn't work at all, but I gather that such things don't HAVE to work out that way in these things...? Had he done this, of course, EmpTyger and MeMe could have concocted the (absolutely brilliant) plan of sacrificing Thenardier for the win.

While I agree that it would be an interesting choice for the mod to make in a game like this, the problem is it takes all of the weight out of name claiming. Speculating what the scum roles are makes sense day one, but now that we have one dead scum, it seems to me that it should serve as a general indicator as to what direction the game was alligned.

[gootentag]

@ LK - as has been established, it is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists. I think it's safe to assume if she existed, she would be scum. Therefore, it is the job of the whole town to find her. After all, that IS the point of the game, right? You washing your hands of finding scum is both suspicious and ironic for a claimed cop. Furthermore, voting for him based on information that may be helpful he provided from his PM is rather damning as well.

MeMe's right - it's precarious to point fingers at a claimed cop, but I also find it hard to believe that a cop would be trying to lynch and voting for the one person who could keep him alive another day - the claimed doctor. FOS stands - your actions are not congruent with your claim.

[gootentag]

Once again - bump to get through recent game closures.

[gootentag]

Meh.

I'm just trying to come up with reasons that LordKrishna had such a good handle on gootentag's role.

If he was lying about investigating me, the results he gave could have been construed to fit any one of us. It makes sense that if he

didn't

have a good handle on my role that he would try something like that to see what he could milk out of it claimwise and throw suspicion at someone and still be able to justify a mislynch the next day.

Combined with his constant insistance that Eponine alone has to somehow prove the existance of a Mme Thenardier, I think it's possible that you

are

Mme T., and that's why you are both trying to distract attention from role, confuse everyone else in the town with erronious results, and throw suspicion at the town doctor, who in the absence of a true cop, is arguably the biggest power role in the game.

[gootentag]

I just sent Aelyn a PM about tomorrow and my restriction, Mr. Stoofer. I'll let you know as soon as I hear back.

[gootentag]

Ok, here's the skinny on my role.

Basically, since I can't vote tomorrow, the only person that can get a majority is me. Therefore, what naturally would happen is a forced deadline and whoever voted first gets to make the kill. However, in keeping with the flavor my my role protecting someone from lynching, I can choose

after a deadline has been issued

who to spare. So basically, I can't vote of my own accord, but I can break a tie post deadline.

That being the case, I will probably not use my ability tonight. If it becomes clear tomorrow who the scum is and I have inadvertently lynch-proofed them, it would be curtains for the town. That, and the only way it would do any good was if someone voted for themself...

[gootentag]

So basically, I can't vote of my own accord, but I can break a tie post deadline.

So if there are 3 people (you, X and Y), with X and Y voting for each other, after the deadlione is issued you can choose which of X or Y to save, and the other will be lynched at deadline?

Esentially, yes. In a normal game, if a deadline is imposed, a 1/2 majority is needed for a lynch. However, with three people, it is possible for two to have a half majority (one vote.) Therefore, the convention is to go back chronologically and see who received a 1/2 majority first and lynch them. I was told that I circumvent this last step - instead of relying on who got their vote in first, I can decide in the event of a tie. It also prevents the scum from getting an auto-win if they "wake up" and see the thread first. If the first post of the day was their vote, it would be game over otherwise.

[gootentag]

This is how it was clarified to me, paraphrased to avoid getting modkilled.

[gootentag]

As far as my suspicions go, right now I am leaning toward LordKrishna as well. However, ChanglingBob strikes me as the Best-Worst-Case-Scenario - his rebel-rousing ability seems most likely to do more harm than good and I am leary of stringing up LK if he's telling the truth. Since Meme is IMO the most "in the clear" due to yesterday's claim/counterclaim, that leaves a claimed doctor, a claimed cop and a claimed insurrectionist. I am most suspicious of LordKrishna, but I also clearly see why ChanglingBob makes sense as well.

As for directly WHO I would vote for if I could, I would probably either not yet be voting even if I could or be voting for LordKrishna.

[gootentag]

I am obviously curious as to the results that LK may or may not have gotten last night. I maintain that it is possible that he is Mme Thenardier, particularly in light of Mr. Stoofer's death and his near insistance on her existance. Especially since Meme is (IMO) the most cleared out of the three of us following EmpTyger's claim gambit day one. If you really are Javert, however, I am still not convinced of your pro-town allignment.

[gootentag]

That leaves Meme as the only one you haven't investigated, and again he seems the more believable of the two of you after day one. However, as a "cop," your results have been less than clear twice now... it seems to me you were hedging your bets yesterday, but why today? Unless you are trying to explain away your results from yesterday by making them seem more commonplace than they are.

[gootentag]

LK: Likewise, please post your thoughts on Meme at this time, and I will do likewise.

Regarding LordKrishna, I believe he is most likely lying about his roleclaim. At the time he claimed, Javert was a relatively safe claim, as everyone else had either claimed already or expressed speculation about the allignment of the role, essentially claiming that they were not Javert themselves. Twice now he has produced "murky" and inconclusive results from his alleged investigations, one in relation to me and one in relation to a townie confirmed by death. Furthermore, his argument day 2 with Mr. Stoofer about the existance of a Mme Thenardier seemed to be an effort to distract the town from the role. Now in light of Mr. Stoofer's death, I think it adds a little more weight to the allegations he made when still alive. The only thing that I worry about is that I have trouble invisioning a Les Miserables themed game without a Javert, or a mafia game without a true cop.

As for Meme, his counterclaim

and ability

were used to nail EmpTyger day one. Not only did this prove EmpTyger as scum, it verified his claimed ability as well, at the expense of turning him into a vanilla townie for the remainder of the game. The ability aside, counterclaiming the assumed protagonist of a story day one to throw a fellow scum under the bus seems way too gutsy on all levels to attempt in a game this small. Sacrificing a fellow mafia member to gain the town's trust often works in larger games, but the risk in one this small seems too steep. Again, just like Javert, I have trouble envisioning a Les Mis game without a Valjean, which is a point in both your favors. However, if there is no Valjean, I think Meme's counterclaim is more viable for the reasons stated above. A significant amount of time had passed between EmpTyger's claim and Meme's counterclaim. Long enough I believe, that everyone else had the opportunity to counterclaim if they were Valjean. If Meme isn't Valjean, he may have seen an opportunity to claim a more believable role and gain the town's trust. Furthermore, claiming Valjean gives an easy excuse to any cop investigations coming up scum, as he was a criminal according to the law and Javert's prime target throughout the book. I feel that this possibility however, is far less than likely, and I am most suspicious of Lord Krishna.

[gootentag]

Meme, you can feel free to post your thoughts as well as just observing the two of us...

[gootentag]

I think MeMe is a 'she', not a 'he'. At least, the gender icon seems to indicate this.

My appologies, Meme. I will try not to make that oversight in the future.

<snip>

Also, as long as we *don't* lynch me, then Town will win, no matter which of you two is lynched. If we lynch a Townie, then I can arrest the remaining scum tonight. If we lynch scum, then obviously, we win.

This I find both scummy and extremely dangerous logic. Lynching correctly today is almost certainly the only path to victory here. If you are pro-town lynching you would be no worse than lynching the other because a scum nightkill would end the game. There is not the room for error you seem to be implying here.

I agree with LK that it would have been quite a feat for gootentag not to vote until now -- but originally the explanation was pretty vague ("role based reasons") and they weren't firmed up until he was directly questioned. This makes me wonder if it was only at that point that he decided to go with the non-voting angle. The explanation of how the role works in endgame is pretty weird too...basically, he's saying that there's no way for town to win this game unless 1) a deadline is in place and 2) LK and I vote each other first.

First off, typically, I would have random voted at the beginning of day one, as is kind of the norm. If I were lying about the role, I would have basically had to commit to it before the game began, which would be a big risk for scum, banking on another role's nonexistance from the beginning. Second of all, in an endgame situation, I can break a tie, not just if you are both voting for each other. Granted, that if Meme votes for me and LK votes for Meme, I would naturally want to side with LK in that situation - because I KNOW that I'm not scum...

[gootentag]

Hang on... more in a minute... just had to get this in before I go to bed .

Good Game, Guys.

VOTE: LordKrishna

[gootentag]

I'm still confused as to why Mme Thenardier triggered a less that definately scum cop result... all I can think of is it was my motherly nature or something like that. At any rate, I thought before the game that the Bishop was far enough away from the main characters that no one else would probably have it, but just close enough to be believable. It also helps that a few years back I started reading the book and didn't get much past that, so he was the character that from the novel I was most familiar with. I was so glad you took out CB yesterday - the thought of him recruiting someone and having two townies verifying each other on day three was frightening. Marius's demise triggering Cosette's death was another unexpected bonus. While this game was in no way easy, but I feel that a lot of the mod actions helped me (and EmpTyger itoo, post-moprtem.) Perhaps that was the balancing factor to the overpowered nature of the town that everyone was talking about day one.

[gootentag]

Meme - how come you can edit posts and I can't?

[gootentag]

Thanks - I was worried when you were onto me day one. I figured when you both claimed Valjean day one, the expected thing to do was jump ship and distance myself. So I didn't. I knew a recruiting town group was a huge threat, so I had to get rid of them first. Again, I couldn't have hoped for a better lynch day two - if CB recruited and both he and his target lived, I would be the odd one out.

Meme, you were my biggest concern through the whole game, but after Day One, I figured you were the best target for a doctor, being relatively confirmed and all, so I couldn't risk losing a kill.

It's been fun, guys. This is my first win as scum. (I lost once on misetings, but other than that have always been pro-town. Obviously, no comment on current games...)