Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[Rishi]

Hi all.

Vote: AceMarksman

[Rishi]

I think mass cardclaim is a bad idea. I don’t think we need to tell the scum who has the sanctuaries, apothecaries, etc. Knowing which players have which powers makes it a lot easier for the scum to plan.

[Rishi]

Need to catch up. Insanely busy until Wednesday but I'll make my best effort to do a read tonight or tomorrow.

[Rishi]

You guys write too much. Anyway, my super busy period at work has ended and given rise to only a moderately busy period. I absolutely promise that I'll catch up in the next 24 hours.

In the meantime,

Unvote

.

[Rishi]

Yay. Caught up, for the most part. I don't have a lot to say, but should be able to keep up with the game and post when needed. Kind of hate Kast right now, who is almost single-handedly responsible for me not being able to keep up with this game.

@zwet - All I have to say is that you have this in your sig:

"zwet is a one-man Worst Role Idea mafia game."-DGB

So you seem proud of the fact that you're a bad player. You can't have it both ways. Either you get to flaunt your badness or you get to be defensive when people insult you, but not both.

Okay, back to the game. This caught my eye from early in the game:

ANYONE who claimed to take the 1/4 vig first round is 100% guarenteed scum. This is entirely worthless to town, and any other power is far outweighs 'not letting scum have 1/4 vig'. I would find anyone who took the plague card first round to be extremely suspect as well. Anyone who took it over the 1/2 cop card I'd call guarenteed scum for sure.

After Kinetic claimed taking the 1/4 vig, charter definitely didn't say anything about it. He didn't even blink. Then he disappeared for a bit, and started being a cheerleader for lynching zwet. Didn't even mention Kinetic once for making this statement. Now I don't think Kinetic is scum for taking the card, but it seems that charter has completely changed his position on this point, without even mentioning it. Plus throw in the fact that his method of scumhunting is "massclaim and hope that the scum are dumber than the rest of us" and then essentially posting "lynch zwet" ad nauseum and you have his play in a nutshell.

Vote: charter

[Rishi]

Got my prod. Have the flu. Will try to catch up once I feel better.

[Rishi]

I know we're not supposed to talk about on-going games, but is it ok to reference games that are ongoing but which I am already dead and the player I comment about in that game is also dead?

I ask because in a recent game someone brought up the same argument as Rishi (that a single player posting a lot prevents other players from being active). To be fair, Rishi has not pushed that as a reason to suspect me (just to hate me ), but I don't want to let that slide and later give him freedom to push a case against me (or any other prolific poster) based on that early statement.

Wow. All I said was that I didn't like the fact that you posted so much, because it added to the amount of reading that I had to do. I, in no way, said that it had anything to do with your alignment in this game. However, your reaction raises an eyebrow. Getting defensive over a non-issue.

@charter – Please respond to my post 224.

I also noticed that ABR has kind of disappeared now that we're not lynching zwet. I somewhat agree that until zwet exhibits anti-town behavior, there's no reason to lynch him in this game. However, if we're going to policy lynch him, I feel like that needs to be done Day 1. My main problem with policy lynches is that they aren't even particularly good sources of information. And, from what I've seen, it doesn't even necessarily dissuade the offending behavior. In any case, it doesn’t look like the wind is blowing that way, so we're probably stuck with zwet for a while.

Oh, and I have a rat.

[Rishi]

@Rishi-
You aren't the only player who expressed negative feelings towards me posting a lot. I wanted to nip that in the bud and not let scum jump on those feelings and push it to a mislynch. The game is over now. Empking pushed that same line of thought and tried to use it to attack me. That game was filled with a lot more active players who did not share the same negative reaction to long posts (in that game they believed that sharing your thoughts is a pro-town thing).

Yeah, but Empking is an idiot. Any reasonable player wouldn't consider overposting to be a scumtell. (Though posting a lot without providing much content could be suspicious.)

Fucking moron. Stop being a dense SOB and fucking play the game instead of being a royal douchebag.

Well, I'm not sure if this is anti-town behavior, but this certainly can't be helpful. I do tend to agree that ABR should contribute beyond the "zwet sucks" posts he's been making, but there's probably a better way to make this point.

Still waiting on charter to answer the points I raised against him.

[Rishi]

What on earth was I supposed to respond to? You gave a heavily narrowminded and slanted summary of part of my early play. That's not a case at all. There's no questions for me to respond to or anything. All you said was 'charter thought massclaim would be a good idea, but dropped it after being shown differing opinions'.

No, that wasn’t all I said. What I said is that, earlier in the game, you made a statement that anyone who keeps a 1/4 NK card or Plague would be 100% guaranteed scum (or something like that). Then, when people started to claim that they had those cards, you didn’t even say anything about it. You completely ignored the issue. What is your opinion on this now? Should people keep or pass those cards? And if your opinion changed, what changed it? What was your reaction when Kinetic revealed he kept those cards (I think he was the first one to reveal)? What do you think of Kinetic in general?

Rishi's been added to my suspects list. She's really posted little of substance all game- I think I counted 3 posts expressing anything meaningful. Her case in 224, her longest post of the game features one quote by charter and a 4-line case after it.

Please get my gender correct. There’s a reason that I put a gender tag in my information, which you can find on every post.

Also, have you read any of my other games? This lack of content is nothing new, I’m sorry to say. I am extremely busy in real life, which is why I only tend to play 2-3 games at a time (plus modding). It’s a null-tell, to be honest. I don’t believe in lurking as a strategy – I just honestly don’t have time to post a lot.

And, by the way, I don't think you're doing it consciously, ortolan, you realize that your long posts and constant monitoring of the thread are part of the reason that people can't keep up. You can't make the thread hard to follow and then turn around and accuse people of lurking. I'll tell you the same thing I told Kast, though. There is no correlation between amount of content and alignment, so I don't think you're scum - in fact, I find you one of the most pro-town players in this game. But, that lack of a correlation works both ways.

[Rishi]

Rishi has just been a lurker. From what I recall, his vote on me was pretty early, and while bad, I think it came before Ace and Budja were caught, so the scummiest thing I see from it is that that is all he can add to the game, when there is a lot he is just ignoring.

Yeah, but I don't feel the need to comment on everything that's going on in the game. If there's something specific you want me to comment on, then please ask.

Your answers to my questions satisfy me for now, though I wish you had said something when everyone was claiming to have the 1/4 NKs and Plagues.

Need to read AceMarksman some more, but thinking about putting my vote there.

[Rishi]

Appeal to emotion as well, eh, charter?

Umm. Appeal to emotion is not a scumtell, necessarily.

I think zwet is displaying increasingly anti-town behavior. Unfortunately, I don't think his lynch provides us with enough information, other than the fact that it would make ABR very happy.

charter - To comment on everything in the game would be exhausting. Sometimes I just like to observe - interactions change when someone knows you're keeping an eye on them. You don't comment on everything, either. In fact, no one does.

As for scum, I honestly don't know at this point. Of course, I'm still suspicious of you, but less so now. Something about both KidIcarus and Kinetic (and their weird interactions - always seem to be on the same page way too often) bothers me, but they've both kind of disappeared.

As I said, I also want to look at Ace's play a little more closely.

[Rishi]

Hey DGB! I haven't played with you since that abandoned Open game. The less said about that, the better.

In any case, I agree that AtE is not necessarily a scumtell. In fact, in my anecdotal observations, I have seen town use it more than scum. The fact is that the current meta is that AtE is a scumtell, so scum know to avoid it. So, usually it comes out as genuine frustration.

charter - What exactly is your problem with DGB?

Kast - do you mind not using that tiny text? Makes it hard to read.

[Rishi]

Enter DGB post flood, stage right. Budja, are you using the replacement as an excuse to scummily retract your vote without much scrutiny?

You post almost as often as DGB.

[Rishi]

Interesting DGB. But Ort has never been strongly for my lynch, so I would not consider it a notable change in behaviour for him to say I was "possibly innocent".

vote: Rishi

Longish fluff posts with little information, active lurking and scant scumhunting.

Weak. How is this different from the way that you're playing? And what's making you single me out as opposed to ZEEnon.

By the way guys, I might be around a little bit today, but I am essentially V/LA until Sunday.

[Rishi]

Wow. Four pages since my last post. A flurry over the weekend. Need to catch up yet again.

[Rishi]

Still have a few pages to catch up on, and I know Kinetic is also behind.

But, Kinetic, can you please confirm if those are the cards you passed?

[Rishi]

Rishi, please confirm whether you passed an NK card to ZEEnon, and if you did, then was it your NK card or was it CTD's NK card?

I did pass a NK card. It came from me.

[Rishi]

3 votes for a charter lynch, 1 to lynch me.

If you let me live, I will protect a player I will declare in thread if I can. If not, I wish you all luck.

Bargaining? I don't like this. If Budja is scum, then it'll be pretty easy to ensure that the protected player is not killed.

Mod: Can you please confirm the deadline is still in effect even though we're waiting for replacements?

[Rishi]

Analyzing DGB's behavior towards Budja should be fun tomorrow.

Really hope this isn't implying that you know which way Budja will flip. Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

In any case (and more importantly), I think the hammer is up to me. DGB will obviously not vote for Budja, under any circumstances. ZEEnon is gone, and Kinetic has been scarce lately. And zwet, for some weird reason, hasn't posted at all today, which is atypical for him.

I prefer a charter lynch, but I don't see that as feasible. And since I won't log on again before deadline...

Unvote, Vote: Budja

[Rishi]

Wow. A lot of reading. You guys really need to post less often. I've said this before in this thread, but if you want to people who are less active to post more, you all have to post less. Counterintuitive, I know.

A couple things left over from yesterday and from today. I don't understand why people are going after DGB. I'm sure a lot of you have played with her before, and her aggressive style isn't anything unusual. Plus, I find it really hard to believe she would have defended Budja so vehemently, even towards the end of the day if she knew he was going to flip scum. Maybe that's WIFOM.

Here's a point against zwet that no one has really brought up. The reason I felt like I had to drop the hammer is that zwet disappeared the day of the deadline. He generally posts at least 5-6 times a day, and had not posted at all in the 36 hours or so before deadline. In fact, I don't think he ever really gave an opinion on Budja on Day 1. This seems like a good way to avoid hammering your scumbuddy.

Vote: zwet

[Rishi]

Few things:

1) I can rarely post more than once a day and there's some days when I can't post at all. This is not a speed game, and I don't see why this game should fall outside of the norms of other games on the site. I will not ask to be replaced out of respect to PJ and out of respect for the theme (I wager I'm the only one here who has played the board game that this setup is based on). So, you're all just going to have to deal with me not posting as often as you guys. I will say it one more time and hopefully this will get through to you people with mysteriously large amounts of free time:

I AM NOT LURKING OR INTENTIONALLY AVOIDING THIS GAME. I AM BUSY.

2) As for ortolan, I found him to be one of the most pro-town players on Day 1 and I'm not sure why he came under so much fire early in Day 2. I've read some of the points against him, and I think, while some of you had legitimate reasons for voting, there's just a lot of bandwagoning going on. The self-vote is, of course, ridiculous, but I think it's as DGB said - he's just exasperated. I've seen scum self-vote (heck, I've done it myself as scum), but usually at that point the reasoning is that you want to shut down discussion. The fact is that ortolan still continued to post at that point and engaged with other players. I really think he's a frustrated townie.

3) I don't have an opinion on Kinetic. He was hyper-aggressive at the beginning of Day 1, disappeared, and now he's back.

4) So, zwet, you may have a legit point about not posting before deadline, but correcdt me if I'm wrong: school is a regularly scheduled thing, right? So you knew you wouldn't be on again until deadline? So why did you not give an opinion on the biggest wagon at that point? In fact, I don't think you really ever commented on Budja at all. That's why I find you scummy - you completely avoided the issue.

[Rishi]

Sorry to harp on this, but doesn't it make it worse that zwet actually said some negative things about Budja but never placed a vote on him? Isn't that classic scum play towards a scumbuddy? Some soft distancing, but no voting or any real pressure? And then conveniently hold back right before deadline? I'm not sure why no one else sees this.

I didn't vote for ortolan before because I thought he was still engaged with the game after his self-vote. When scum self-vote, they do it to shut down discussion, and now it's clear he has no intention of trying to be helpful. It's tough, though. I always felt like I had a town read on ortolan, and so I'm reading most of his antics as frustration. If the game situation is the same in a couple days, I'll hammer before deadline, but I'm not feeling it right now.

Kinetic - If I was forced to pick between you and ort, I'd lynch you, but I still would much rather lynch zwet at this point.

[Rishi]

No plague deaths. That means that the Mafia probably didn't get their hands on a plague - because I can't imagine they wouldn't use it (and why would they NK someone who they plagued earlier?). Of course, this doesn't clear people with plague cards - we don't know who may have played an Apoth on whom, but it certainly is something interesting to look at.

To someone who is keeping a list - who had plague cards?

[Rishi]

Interesting buddying b/w Kinetic and Ace...

? What do you mean? Or are you being sarcastic?

[Rishi]

ac vs. Kinetic and Ace! Let's zoom in to get a better view...

Why does this make you so happy? Because the pressure is off of you?

[Rishi]

@Rishi-
-That doesn't follow. Scum may easily have used plagues on Apothecaried townies, Ort, OR may have used plagues on Night 2 (as Zwet has claimed).

-I'm tracking what people have claimed, although it's incomplete and may have errors.

If people think it would help, I don't mind sharing my list. The information is all public knowledge so scum already have it if they want it.

Sorry for the double post... missed this.

Yeah. You might be right, but I still find it interesting that there were no plague deaths. I would like to know who had the plague cards (without digging through 45 pages), but I understand if others think it gives too much info to scum.

I also agree with what you said about Looker. Either play or get out. I don't want to force PJ to look for another replacement, though.

[Rishi]

Hey look! Ace and kinetic are voting the same person!

Fun Fact #37: You're not voting for either one of them. You seem so sure that Ace and Kinetic are scumbuddies - so why aren't you voting?

[Rishi]

No need to prod me. I'm still here. I had been busy the last few days, but had been reading. There hasn't been a lot on this day... a lot of 1-2 line posts.

My top suspect is still probably zwet. He was really sure that Kinetic and Ace were scum together and now he's saying it's me and DGB. Also, he didn't really start playing today until the whole argument died down. It seems like he was waiting on the sideline trying to pick a side. Also, with only two scum left, I don't find a bus as plausible at this point.

I don't like how both Kast and DGB both said they were suspicious of me without specific reasons (and DGB is worse - because she didn't say anything until after Kast did), but I'll give them a chance to explain.

[Rishi]

I don't like how both Kast and DGB both said they were suspicious of me without specific reasons

You've lurked all game. There's not much that we can draw reason from with you. I would like you to list all players in order from scummiest to least scummy with reasons why.

Not lurking. Busy. How many times do I have to say that? And your name isn't Kast or DGB. Most scummy = zwet. Told you that.

Also, zwet, you're not voting for ANYONE. And you've expressed plenty of suspicion. I don't think you're in a position to criticize people for not voting.

Vote: zwet

[Rishi]

Yay for Pooky. Since we have a deadline coming up, I will make this game a priority, but I'm having serious out-of-game issues right now. Will catch up soon.

[Rishi]

Hey all. Sorry for my absence. I don't think this is in dispute, but I did give permission to PJ to publish what cards I had on the first night to explain the mod error. Basically, it seemed like a better option than abandoning the game.

I don't bus. I find it too risky as scum. Especially not putting a scumbuddy at L-1.

I haven't played with zwet before, so I don't know if he'd bus or not, but I find it difficult to believe in this situation, especially with one scum down. Besides, I think people in this game are consciously looking for a bus (I remember it being mentioned several times) and I think it would do little to negate suspicion with this group of players.

What I said about zwet before not voting is that he was criticizing others for not voting. It was not his reluctance to vote, but his hypocrisy that got the vote from me. I still don't like how he seemed to revel in the fight between acfan and Kinetic. (If zwet flips scum, I would probably peg neither of them as his scumbuddy.) And I still don't like how he criticized Budja on Day 1 but never voted for him.

My vote stands. This, of course, goes without saying, but I am willing to switch my vote - probably AM would be my second choice.

Pooky worries me slightly because that slot is a wild card. I have absolutely zero read on the previous players.

[Rishi]

My vote stands. This, of course, goes without saying, but I am willing to switch my vote - probably AM would be my second choice.

Didn't hit preview. To clarify, I'm willing to switch my vote to avoid a No Lynch. Again, probably goes without saying.

[Rishi]

Didn't hit preview. To clarify, I'm willing to switch my vote to avoid a No Lynch. Again, probably goes without saying.

Please don't switch to ac1983fan.

Do you think No Lynch is preferable to an acfan lynch? There's no viable counterwagon at this point.

[Rishi]

@Rishi-
What was the final card that you passed to PTMB?

It was a mimic.

Well, since acfan's lynch is inevitable, I see no point withholding the hammer. (He also posted recently, so I doubt he has anything else to say.)

Unvote, Vote: ac1983fan