Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi, I'm the new populartajo. I hear there's a party going on in here?

[CrashTextDummie]

Why isn't Slicey dead yet? It's pretty clear to me that he is scum.

Vote: Slicey

[CrashTextDummie]

Have you read his posts in isolation lately? Appreciated the fact that he hasn't posted in over a week while he is active in other games? I'm gonna spell it out when I have the time to analyze everyone in detail (probably by this time tomorrow), but I really hate it when people jump to the conclusion that it's "just OMGUS" when two people vote for each other. Are you aware of the fact that his vote for me (or rather my predecessor) is still a random vote back from page 1?

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm beginning to understand why ABR wants to policy lynch this plum brandy guy...

[CrashTextDummie]

Alright, I've reread in more detail now. First of all, I feel that most of the talk about mass-claim and proper use of drawing/using cards has been an unproductive waste of time. Very few people have been hunting scum, and it's put a strain on this game.

Thoughts on individual people:

The person I feel most strongly about right now is AceMarkman. His "Oh shit" reaction in Post 99 rings patently false to me. He claims not to have realized the implication of passing a 1/4 NK card, which shouldn't be of concern to him since the alternative was passing a PLAGUE card.

I liked neither of his two Kinetic votes, and I get the feeling that he's throwing his vote around in order to find something that sticks. Although to his credit he's one of the few people advocating actual scum-hunting, he's not doing much in the way of productive scum-hunting himself. Post 148 is a perfect example of this: He asks for less use of WIFOM, only to place a vote on Zwetschenwasser that is based purely on WIFOM.

His stance on Zwet in general is something I don't like. He switches freely from blatantly advocating his lynch to arguing against it. And Zwet was absolutely right to call him out on this blatant fishing attempt.

Lastly, what little interaction I've personally had with him so far has given me rather massive scum-vibes:

CTD: I see what you're saying. I must think on this.

How's that thinking coming along? As a matter of fact, what is there really to think about? Slicey's collective body of work in this game takes about a minute to read. The fact that AceMarkman doesn't take a stance on this indicates to me that he's hedging his bets. I haven't decided yet what that makes me think about Slicey, but it definitely makes me feel that AceMarkman is scum.

-----

Speaking of Slicey, the fact that he's getting replaced pretty much means that my vote on him has outlived its purpose. It was mostly designed to get a reaction from him. I do think that what little he posted was somewhat scummy, but it's not enough to lynch him over. I'm witholding judgment until we hear from his replacement.

-----

Charter's vote against Budja has merrit, for the reason he mentioned. I also have notes of more than one occasion where Budja defended AceMarkman for no apparent reason after a lazy early attack. I sense possible scum-buddies.

-----

Ortolan I feel is town as he has given me strong town-vibes on several occasions, and this is also true of Rishi and charter to a lesser extent. I feel neutral about Zwetschenwasser, but I agree with Kast that he has not displayed any anti-town behavior so far. Kinetic and Kast have been the main instigators of theory discussion, and I feel they have done little but. They should change that. ABR has been mostly useless so far, and suffice it to say that I've seen more inspiring play from him in the past. I may have to reread KidIcarus, as I have almost no notes on him (I did note down his Post 66 as bad, but that's pretty much it).

----

Unvote, Vote: AceMarkman

If necessary or more promissing, I'm willing to switch to Budja or Slicey depending on what his replacement has to say.

Less theory talk and more analysis, please. I'm not willing to lynch anyone over the cards they have or chose to draft today. Discussion about this should stop.

PS: Kast and AceMarkman need to stop posting in mod colors. It bugs me.

[CrashTextDummie]

-"Oh Shit": I don't think there's any way to prove to you that I thought I had royally screwed up the town by not keeping my 1/4 nightkill.

And I don't think there's any way for me to believe that you thought as such. Allegedly, you passed the 1/4 nightkill for the specific puprose of denying the person after you a plague card, because, in your own words, it "would be the worst card to pass to scum". I agree with this assessement, and therefore cannot comprehend how you could have thought you had screwed up the town.

-Kinetic votes: If I were trying to throw my vote around to somewhere it would stick, wouldn't my vote be on zwet or something?

I'll get back to this.

Which leads to:

-zwet: In the early parts of the game, my vote on him was mostly policy (and fear of him having plague, and rat, AND double), but now I don't feel he is the best vote for today.

Define "mostly policy". When you places a vote on him, you stated in no uncertain words that you "sensed scum motivation". That's pretty much the oposite of a policy reason to vote.

Also, define "early parts of the game". You stated you were happy with a Zwet lynch as late as Page 10. Only very recently have you changed this opinion. How exactly did you arrive at this change of heart, by the way? Cause it's not entirely clear to me.

-slicey: I have read him through in isolation, but that doesn't give me much info. I'm actually looking at a connection between him and ABR, whom we haven't heard much from recently. I've also been really bogged down with homework, but it's spring break now, so I'll have much more time.

You didn't take a stance. You implied that my vote against Slicey could have merrit ("I see what you're saying"), but you didn't commit to it ("I must think on this"). The reason I have a problem with this is that there was nothing to really think about. You read his posts (which takes VERY little time), and either you think they're scummy, to whatever degree, or you don't.

I can see no reason why a pro-town player would make a post like that. I can see plenty of reasons why scum would make a post like that, both if Slicey is your buddy or if he isn't.

If necessary or more promissing, I'm willing to switch to Budja or Slicey depending on what his replacement has to say.

...and I get the feeling that he's throwing his vote around in order to find something that sticks.

Hm, I find this a little contradictory. Here you say that you are willing to place your vote on someone else if it will stick, or am I reading this wrong?

I am announcing who I am willing to pursue today as things stand, which is valuable information for the town considering we're one week away from deadline and the game isn't progressing at a rapid-fire pace. There has been very little drive so far to get anyone lynched, and I have stated clearly which wagons I would support, for what reasons and under what conditions (in Slicey's case).

That is not in any way comparable to what I'm accusing you of. To be blunt, I think your reasons for voting so far have been crap, and I can't see them as genuine suspicions a pro-town player would have.

Incidentally, who are you suspicious of right now? Last we heard, you were "not sure about Kinetic" and thought "Zwet is [...] either Idiot town or scum". That's the only two people you've attacked in any capacity so far. I am forced to assume that you are not particularly suspicious of anyone right now. Considering you've scolded others for not voicing suspicions before, that's awfully hypocritical of you.

PS: Kast and AceMarkman need to stop posting in mod colors. It bugs me.

Wait, what?

Post 126. Kast has done it more often than you. Just a minor annoyance I had as I was reading the game.

I also have notes of more than one occasion where Budja defended AceMarkman for no apparent reason after a lazy early attack. I sense possible scum-buddies.

Now lets make this clear. I never intended to defend Ace as such. I was asked why I thought that one of Ace's posts could have been scummy but then wasn't several times and was attempting to explain myself. No-one is attacking Ace over that post anyway.

I am attacking him over that post. And I have no problem believing that it wasn't your intention to defend Ace. The way I see it right now, I find it distinctly possible that you attacked him in an early-game distancing effort and then had to find reasons to drop it. In that sense, your intention wasn't to defend Ace, it was to cover your own ass.

But what about this post:

Ace comes off impatient and isn't putting up a good defence but my gut says he is clumsy town now.

What was your intention here? Surely not to defend Ace, am I right?

[CrashTextDummie]

Kast, got any opinion about AceMarkman or Budja?

[CrashTextDummie]

I am severely displeased that both Ace and Budja have ignored my last post. Severely displeased. I am also displeased by the fact that Kast did a lot of the work for them, but I realize that I have provoked this by asking for his opinion. Clearly I should consider the consequences of asking for Kast's opinion in the future.

Still, both Ace and Budja have posted before Kast's wall of text, and they both avoided my accusations. Scummy.

Also, I find it funny that Kast says he sees no evidence of Budja buddying with Ace, and in the very next post Budja calls Ace an "easy lynch" and a mislynch waiting to happen. Makes me feel worse about Buja than Ace, by the way.

I briefly skimmed through the game before I replaced into
this, and I was really sure I was replacing scum.
Shows how good my scumhunting is ...

Alarm bells. Enjoy your read.

[CrashTextDummie]

I want to see the rest of those rat/NK claims before I make part two of my post tomorrow, we've only got three or so days now.

I have neither. I'm working on a longer post, but thought I should get that out there if it's holding up discussion.

[CrashTextDummie]

Unvote, Vote: Budja

Unfortunately, I didn't find the time to reread/analyze so far, but deadline hits tomorrow and I have to move to someone who can feasibly gather the votes necessary for a lynch. As far as I remember, Kast has expressed no desire to lynch AceMarkman and it would require a very rapid wagon on ZEEnon to get anywhere, so Budja it is. For the record, those 3 are by far our best bets for scum as far as I'm concerned, and I'm particularly starting to revisit my early suspicion of ZEEnon/Slicey. Awkwardly announcing that he "thought he was replacing scum", then dropping off the face of the earth at the first whiff of suspicion pointed his way is textbook newbie-scum behavior in my book. If people were to pile their votes on him within the next 24 hours, that would be very much to my liking.

I'll try to get some of that reading/analyzing in before the deadline. I'm gonna take a good look at Kast, because Ortolan's case against him seemed rather solid at a first glance. I also want to take a closer look at Kast's case against KidIcarus, to check if he's just keeping his vote warm in a convenient place or if there's actual merit to his vote. Also of particular interest is the relationship between Kast, Budja and AceMarkman, because there's definitely some shady stuff going on between these 3 and figuring that out is going to be one of the major puzzles of this game, I feel.

One thing I feel I should adress because it's of utmost concern for the upcoming lynch is the idea of "lynching to gather information" that AceMarkman has been arguing for. This is complete crap. We are lynching to kill scum, and nothing but. For AceMarkman to argue against his own lynch because of a supposed lack of information to be had, and for him to tout the virtues of a charter lynch because, according to him, it would provide more information massively rubs me the wrong way . It's not a pro-town mindframe to be had. I would lynch ZEEnon on the spot if I had the chance, and it would give us almost no information. But I'm pretty sure it would eliminate one of 3 problems for the town, and that is paramount. Just thought that should be said.

@mod

Please consider a deadline extension. KidIcarus needs to be replaced and I have a feeling that ZEEnon also won't be back. Thank you.

[CrashTextDummie]

Also:

I am finding ABR a lot less scummy, though very anti-town as I say in my post above. I will move my vote when I decide on a better target.

Are you planning on making that decision sometimes in the imminent future? Possibly before the deadline hits? That would be sweet.

The time for decisions is now. You're hedging your bets, and that makes my vote on you a rather happy one.

[CrashTextDummie]

Oh my, DGB. This game just got 100% more crazy,

despite

ABR dropping out.

I'm looking forward to this.

[CrashTextDummie]

DGB, how is my vote on Budja opportunistic?

Also, can you provide a reasonably recent game of yours where you replaced in as town, please?

[CrashTextDummie]

It's the timing of your vote, and the fact that I view Budja as townish, and the people pushing his lynch as scummish.

So you don't think I should have moved my vote to someone on my suspicion list that had a reasonable chance of getting lynched as opposed to leaving it on a somewhat stagnant wagon one day before deadline? Or is that what you find opportunistic about it?

And thanks for providing those games, even though I would have preferred ones you've played under the DGB account. I'll have a look at them.

[CrashTextDummie]

The reason I asked is because your entry into this game gave me flashbacks of Yakuza Mafia, where you began the game by using a similar system of (somewhat arbitrarily) tallying "scumpoints" to form your list of suspicion. You replaced Yours Truly there, and were scum.

The Toaster Strudel games you linked don't display this form of beginning a replacement stint, but then again in the DGB game you used an even more confusing and oblique method of "scumhunting", so I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that technicality. Mind you, I haven't studied your analysis in detail yet.

[CrashTextDummie]

I don't recall mentions of looming deadlines in your post, but PJ is going to postpone the deadline on account of replacements, so yeah, I'm not crazy about that vote. You could have fought harder for your favorite lynch candidate. It was worth one scumpoint, which puts you in the middle of the pack until further actions. I'm not sure where the defensiveness comes from.

I am not being defensive, I am trying to figure out where you're coming from, whether you are making an honest scumhunting effort or just looking for weak reasons to support your phony scumpoint meter. And that's easiest for me to judge based on your analysis of me.

One thing I figured is that you couldn't have spent a whole lot of time reading, at least when it comes to my posts. Not only did I make more than one specific mention of the looming deadline in the very post I voted Budja in, you'd also know that I've been suspicious of Budja ever since I've first read the game and that he therefore isn't just an emergency lynch for me. I am perfectly content lynching him, just as I would be perfectly content lynching a bunch of other people.

Gonna check your entry post to see how well the rest of your scumpoint appointment stacks up.

[CrashTextDummie]

DGB replaced KidIcarus, FYI, ortolan. ZEEnon is still MIA.

I liked ortolan's case against DGB a whole lot, but I disagree with some of his conclusions. DGB has been known to be staunchly anti-bussing when she's scum, and I would expect her to behave exactly the way she does if she was scum with Budja. In this scenario, Zwetschenwasser would be the townie she's defending to garner town-points. AceMarkman and charter would be townies she tries to get lynched. Her second buddy would be someone she placed in "the middle of the pack" or someone she didn't bother to mention at all. ZEEnon/slicey, anyone?

Individually, I still find AceMarkman scummy. But the various group dynamics and voting behaviours make me waver. I'm pretty sure based on his own play and the people that are voting for him that charter is a townie being run up. I'm liking my Budja vote more and more the longer the day goes on - Zwetschenwasser made an excellent observation when he called him out for dropping the ABR vote as soon as he requested replacement. He left that vote (which was rather unemphatic to begin with, I might add) there until one day before deadline (before it was extended), didn't seem to be in a hurry to move it, then dropped it as soon as ABR left the game. That's not the behaviour of a pro-town player.

I'll be back with more.

[CrashTextDummie]

Catching up on stuff.

What concerns me most at this point is Budja's weak-ass vote.

So I have to pick a popular bandwagon do I?
Placing a vote isn't noncommittal just because I didn't pick a high profile target.

You are completely avoiding taking part in the lynching process. Everyone who doesn't find Budja scummy should take a look at his voting pattern in relation to the varying deadlines. He held onto a random vote for a solid two weeks. He then switched to ABR without ever making any effort to make a compelling case against him or to get a wagon going. He kept it there until

a day before deadline

(even stating at that time that his suspicion of ABR had lessened severely) and made no move to make a productive move with his vote when facing said deadline.

His implied reason for unvoting ABR was because he got replaced. He then voted Rishi of all people for stated reasons: "Longish fluff posts with little information, active lurking and scant scumhunting." I tend to agree with whoever called him hypocritical for this, especially the "longish fluff posts" and "scant scumhunting"part. I didn't specifially check Budja's posts for his scumhunting effort, but it's clear to me that he hasn't shown any desire so far to get anyone lynched. His post is again sitting uselessly by itself on a player with no chance of getting lynched based on weak and unsubstanciated reasoning, and we are once again approaching deadline.

This is NOT the behavior of a pro-town player.

I'm gonna answer some points of Kast, since he's asked for it repeatedly:

It's hard seeing DGB as a replacement of KidIcarus. I would like people (including DGB) to re-read KidIcarus, particularly 0, 1, and 7. He does a complete 180 twice in two posts, he denies doing so, and he tries to wagon using Zwet as an authority/excuse (when Zwet wasn't saying what he pretended that Zwet was saying). None of this involves explanations, and most of this involves tying himself to someone else's post. Posts in between are pretty much no-content active lurking.

I don't see the supposed complete 180. As far as I can tell, KidIcarus was pro-mass-claim in all of those 3 posts. Point it out if I'm missing something.

NK DISTRIBUTION PLAN

I didn't read your plan in detail, because the card aspect of this game quite frankly bores me, and at least for the moment, I don't want to spend too much time thinking about it. Talk to me again when card distribution is actually relevant again. The plan would probably need to be adjusted anyway in light of ZEEnon's revelation of having an NK card. Also, does it take into account that players are gonna die and that the draw order is going to change?

-----

A few points regarding DGB. First of all, her latest vote is puzzling me, for several reasons. Her case against ortolan is crap as far as I'm concerned, and reveals her opening list of suspicions to be the BS I suspected it to be. While I don't particularly find her stance of finding it easier to scumhunt while she's in the thick of things as opposed to reading from a distance suspicious (even though it doesn't match my own experience), I do find it more than odd that she seemingly completely dropped the case on ABR as soon as he was replaced. Secondly, her vote is going nowhere right now, which is undesireable considering the nearing deadline, to say the least. It indicates that she has no desire to help out Budja though, which adds another layer of confusion to the theory of them being buddies.

Given the cards that I have, the scum will have to work extremely hard to have me lynched during the day.

This quote peeves me greatly. This kind of soft-claim gives me serious flashbacks to the last scum-game of hers I personally played in.

I'd be willing to lynch either Budja or DGB today. Preferrably the former, based on individual scummyness and taking into acount DBG's general level of crazyness. And since Budja is currently sitting on enough votes to get lynched, that's where my vote stays.

I'll try to get some more rereading done within the next two days. If anyone wants me to comment on anything in particular, let me know.

[CrashTextDummie]

looking back, I'm starting to suspect zwet a little because of the cards he passed to me. He passed a sanctuary, an apothicary, and a mimic over a rat, plague, and mimic.

OMG

There can only be one explanation for this.

unvote, vote: zwet

What happened to him being obv-town and the easiest player to read on all of mafiascum?

[CrashTextDummie]

Ortolan, I'd rather reread this game than some other game. Is there anything particular I should take note of from that game? Is it a point in favor of Budja = scum, or not?

[CrashTextDummie]

What happened to him being obv-town and the easiest player to read on all of mafiascum?

Only an idiot doesn't change his mind in the face of massively contrary evidence.

First of all, I don't see any "massively contrary evidence". Secondly, in retrospect, I find it really funny that you grilled ortolan over his 100% remark, stating that you can only make such claims when you have rolebased info. You yourself called Zwetschenwasser "100% confirmed town" in your very first post. Thirdly, considering there is actually no evidence of Zwetschenwasser being scum, I find it absolutely bizarre that you would make a complete 180 on someone you previously seemed to be

absolutely 100% convinced

was town. Thirdly, you claiming to have a doctor card in this situation is not only completely unnecessary, but also not the move of a pro-town player.

Lastly, I am ready to move my vote to DGB as soon as my vote would put her into the lynching threshold. So if someone wants to put another vote on her, please go ahead.

[CrashTextDummie]

townie.

That was enlightning. How about a card claim?

[CrashTextDummie]

Just checking in to say that I'm here, will be here before deadline tomorrow (unless I'm massively screwing up my timezones), and that I'm waiting for Budja to die. There's nothing wrong with his cards, but there is something wrong with his complete lack of desire to defend himself against his impending lynch.

Also here to publicly state that this game should not be abandoned and that I hope you all PMed PJ to that effect.

Kthxbai.

[CrashTextDummie]

3 votes for a charter lynch, 1 to lynch me.

If you let me live, I will protect a player I will declare in thread if I can. If not, I wish you all luck.

Yep, yep, very happy with this lynch.

I don't suppose anything drastic will happen before the end of the day, so that's probably the last you'll hear from me before the deadline hits.

[CrashTextDummie]

By the way, DGB, why are you so eager to believe Budja's claimed cards, and willing to accept them as fact? There's no way to know if he actually has a doc card, and nigh impossible to prove. Hasn't it crossed your mind that the doc-card would be the most likely for a scum to fake-claim, seeing as it is indeed arguably the most pro-town card?

Analyzing DGB's behavior towards Budja should be fun tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

The scum did a good job in killing me, because I was fairly in the zone this game. Although they weren't my top suspects (that would have been DGB/Slicey-replacement), I feel I was onto Kast (and was disappointed when Ortolan didn't pick up that thread he lay down himself again on D2). Rishi was under my radar, but I probably would have caught him as well, mostly because ortolan, Zwet and Kinetic were absolutely obv-town to me. The Ortolan lynch in particular boggled my mind. Actually, the whole game was painful to read after my death.

Well done, scum.