Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!

[TonyMontana]

I pre-emptivly give thanks/you're welcomes, to your inevitable welcomes and thanks.

Will do my best to settle down quickly.

[TonyMontana]

Welcome TonyMontana. I like this new avatar better than the last one, btw. And interesting gimmick with your game; reading through the first few pages I wish I was in it.

Now post. *kick*

Wish I could say the same for your new avatar

Would be alot faster at reading up, if you didn't fill up every page to the rim.

[TonyMontana]

I don't read good (har-har)

I'm gonna start off with what caught my attention most, during my read through.

You are one of two things:
1) scum-mason
2) town-mason

Either way,scum already know which you are. So killing PK only helps us (the town) trust you. It doesn't change the way scum thinks of you.

I found it interesting, how those were the only options you would see. Did the possibility of just plain scum never cross your mind? I would imagine it wouldn't if you are scum yourself.

Because Kort's theory a few posts later struck a chord with me:

Vi's claim makes me think that they're both scum, actually. PK I can easily imagine as having tried a crude gambit (claiming masons with a scumpartner) and pulling freeko with him; freeko's response fits the profile of wary scum going with the plan but ready to bus, and Vi's most recent claim of neighbour covers all bases in case of a lynch of either one of them.

But while we're on the topic of Korts, I thought Vi pretty much destroyed him in 408. I must admit, I got pretty lost in the postwalls in the later pages, so can anyone explain why the korts wagon got dismantled. A sheep claim? In risk of sounding like freekofisher, I really wanna hear a full claim.

vote:korts

[TonyMontana]

Both.

Vote freeko

That is not anybit helpful to town. You just want Korts lynched for the sake of a lynch then. Everyone else on the bandwagon atleast concidered what I have said and then made up their mind, even if it was agianst the information I had. I would much rather you be todays lynch.

While I agree freeko is acting very anti-town, I must concede that Vi's "confirmation" of freeko is every bit as, if not even more, credible as yours of korts.

unvote

[TonyMontana]

btw, was an explanation given for there being a limited reveal in the deaths so far?

[TonyMontana]

EBWOP: Well, death. Don't believe we've seen the last of occam.

[TonyMontana]

It's easiest to assume that Occam has snuffed it. It's what I feel is most likely given how Mafia games usually work (that and the Doctor was lynched D1).

Well this obviously isn't a "usual" mafia game. Btw, why do you say he was a doctor, did I miss something, or do you assume?

[TonyMontana]

(that and the Doctor was lynched D1).

the

doctor??

Also, I think its pretty clear, for more than just flavor reasons, that MM was a non-alligned neutral party. Were he a strictly town doc, he should have fully claimed to prevent us from lynching him, since its better for a town PR to get nked rather than lynched. I had this conversation with him, and he ignored it out of self-preservation (so he wouldn't be nked). Assuming he was neutral, there is no difference to his wincon whether he's lynched or nked, and assuming he didn't really care what happened to the town, or what was in the town's best interest, that explains why he acted out of self preservation by not full claiming, rather than doing what was best for the town.

From the way he acted before the lynch, i find it highly unlikely that he was a doc. (saying he could easily prove his power, for instance) Cleric is a kind of Priest. Priest, according to wiki, is a player unable to place the lynching vote on someone. I'd say that is an easily provable claim. Pagan, has a third-party (/neutral) cling to it.

I like Tony's contributions so far, but I'm still looking for more of a "This is who i think is scum..." and why type of post

Well i just got my coat off, i need time to get my bearings...

I have a good idea that the sheep is town so I like to think my information is a little more confirmed however I am sure I am the only one that believes that.

Well it certainly doesn't help me, when I don't know what your reasons for believing so are. AFAIK, there could be black sheeps, so to speak.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-11

Freeko - 2 (BSG, Raider)
Korts - 1 (freeko)
Rhinox - 1 (Korts)
Juls - 1 (Vi)

Not Voting - 5 (Megaflareon, afatchic, Rhinox, Juls, TonyMontana)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Currently seeking a replacement for Megaflareon.

Deadline is in 9 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.

[TonyMontana]

From the way he acted before the lynch, i find it highly unlikely that he was a doc. (saying he could easily prove his power, for instance) Cleric is a kind of Priest. Priest, according to wiki, is a player unable to place the lynching vote on someone. I'd say that is an easily provable claim. Pagan, has a third-party (/neutral) cling to it.

Or you can cheat and read what THE MOD SAID.

MonkeyMan was an indifferent doctor, and being a Pagan and not with the church, he was also hated by you, only six votes to lynch.

See, this is what I was asking for. Don't leave me hanging to make up my own assumptions

[TonyMontana]

23

[TonyMontana]

Pretty much skimmed day 1.. thought it be best to focus on day 2 if I was to catch up. And somehow I had gathered that MM's role was ambigious. Honest miss.

[TonyMontana]

Is there anyway you could say why you know there's only 2 sheep in the game, or is that too much to ask?
Cause I have my doubts.. and depending on your reasons, I have my doubts of Jebus counting towards those 2.

Mod-reminder: NPC's are never more than flavor.

[TonyMontana]

Mod-reminder: NPC's are never more than flavor.

Read: Sheep claim is not a counter to Korts, if we're to believe raider knows there's only 2 sheep in the game.

[TonyMontana]

Korts, it is real simple. I think you are scum. I have already listed why I believe this to be true. You do nothing to coutner this. Therefore I have no reason to belive that you are not scum. The question becomes then, what are you going to do when I flip over exactly waht I have said I was. You will likely end up bening next anyway.

And you'll happily go to the grave if korts flips what he claims as well?

[TonyMontana]

Though what he claims is a load of crap. It is obvious to me that the scum teams plan was to get either myself or (at the time) Prom King lynched. korts even started a wagon on PK when he was inactive in the game. I foolishly agreed to this as it would have most assuredly proven my alignment (stupid me.. I also forgot that it would book my ticket for the NK as well).

IF I am somehow wrong on this, then I dont mind being lynched day 3.

First off, as has been pointed out, volunteering for a future lynch is a big no-no if you're town, and could easily be pegged as a scumtell.

Secondly, who do you think you are? Let's say PK/Vi

was

lynched. You really think scum would have a mason widow as top priority for the NK?
Hell, I don't even think scum would consider you while both are alive, which you continue to drone about being inevitable

Personally, I'd figure scum would keep you around, just because you're so scummy, not to mention annoying.

[TonyMontana]

Shortly put I'm having a more difficult time believing the whole sheep/shepherd thing now that Jebus has cleared up that he's not one of them. Would anyone like to claim Sheep 2? (other than Occam posthumously)

Baaah.

But I have reason to believe I wouldn't count towards raiders supposed two sheep.
I can't really say for sure though, since I don't have any idea what his info is.
Nor do I agree that he should be forced to claim unless the town demands it by threat of lynch. (or an impeding lynch on korts, if he feels a claim could be valuable in that scenario.)

[TonyMontana]

Someone is trying to make sure the sheep get to the next town for who knows what reason. Its a make sure they get there type thing and not a everyone must be dead type thing. That is why I think the sheep is town.

Your win condition isn't to prevent this from happening, is it?
I'm being (sort of) facetious, but in any case, if there's an objective of getting some sheep to town, is it not possible someone has an objective of stopping this? Or it might just simply be in the interest of the scum.

I take it back, I'm not a sheep

:p
But seriously, sheep, keep your mouth shut, and lets stop this premature claiming, sheep or not.

I sympathize. I'm the second-worst Mafia player I know (that actually tries), and the worst one just quit so guess where that leaves me. Oddly, nobody believes me when I say this.

Well, you've got a whole game to convince me. -.-

Maybe we should get this confirmation/rejection from everyone?

I AM NOT A

CROOK

SHEEP

*chuckle*

[TonyMontana]

But seriously, sheep, keep your mouth shut, and lets stop this premature claiming, sheep or not.

Because lynching the claimed and uncountered neighbor(s?) is obviously the right play. If I am not scum then Vi obviously is? Thats certainly the scum path to victory this game.

That's what you gathered from me not wanting a massclaim?

[TonyMontana]

That you dont want a massclaim is almost irrelevant. That you want everyone to shut up about even claiming anything at all.. that is relevant.

I didn't say I wanted everyone to shut up about claiming. I said I didn't want anyone to claim sheep.

[TonyMontana]

@Tony: what was your purpose for fake claiming sheep?

I wasn't. The part of taking it back was a joke.

[TonyMontana]

@Tony: what was your purpose for fake claiming sheep?

I wasn't. The part of taking it back was a joke.

Ok Im confused by this. Why would you joke about that?

Because of my epiphany about there might being someone with an anti-sheep agenda.

[TonyMontana]

TonyMontana: I got lost somewhere. Are you white and

nerdy

fluffy, or not?

I am.

Vi is right, time is tight. Can everyone who is not voting, vote or atleast FoS someone so we know who you think is scum.

Vote: freeko

Generally abrasive and anti-town.
Started off the day wanting to lynch korts with extremely poor reasoning, and has clinged to the idea like his life depended on it.
Says he's interested in scumhunting, but he has only seemed to hunt korts. Seems detached in his tunnel-vision and shows disregard for skeptical inquiry.
Bottom-line, if he's not scum, he's not good for the town anyway.

you do relize you can read players in isolation right??

all you do is select their name at the bottom of the thread and all of their posts in that thread majically appear

Come again? Do you need some special powers, or am I just not understanding this?

[TonyMontana]

EBWOP: Nevermind about the isolation [face_palm] I swear I couldn't find my own shoes if I was wearing them....

[TonyMontana]

freeko is not the correct play here, not with what his claimed and confirmed role is, and definitely not with this case of "you're too abrasive therefore you are scum QED" and the pre-emptive justification of Tony of "if he's not scum, he's not good for the town in any way"; there's quite probably scum on his wagon at this point. I particularly don't like Tony and tubby's votes.

I didn't mean abrasive=scum, I'm more saying his style of abrasiveness reeks. As for pre-emptivly justifying myself, I would never. I vote freeko cause I think he might be scum. Maybe I should do what freeko did, offer his head up as a guarantee, in trade for your lynch. Which is the scummier move?

With an impeding deadline, how bout you add some walking, with that talking?

[TonyMontana]

My bad, I thought you were voteless.

But if you think there's scum on freeko's wagon, wouldn't you rather take a swing at us? -.-

[TonyMontana]

My bad, I thought you were voteless.

Why?

I meant I thought he wasn't voting at the time. [face_palm]
I'm a pro at using confusing terminology, bear with me.

[TonyMontana]

While I agree freeko is acting very anti-town, I must concede that Vi's "confirmation" of freeko is every bit as, if not even more, credible as yours of korts.

unvote

He never does mention that he's changed his mind about any "confirmation" from Vi having any bearing on freeko's alignment.

First off, freeko has done alot of talking since then,
and secondly, I wasn't exectly saying the confirmation was rock solid (which it isn't), I was rather comparing it to your confirmation which is shoddy as well.

[TonyMontana]

This also begs the question of why he's not voting the less-confirmed Korts.

There's not really any corrolation between the confirmations and degrees of scumminess here.

[TonyMontana]

Mine isn't that exciting. Give me some time to catch up, and ill have a good claim for everyone.

[TonyMontana]

Cool, unlike you not claiming.

[TonyMontana]

Plan B:

unvote, vote: afatchic

This is the hammer, afatchic has been lynched.

[TonyMontana]

Im def. gonna get revenge for this. i clearly said wait till i finish my read, jerk.

How bout you finish your goddamn read tonight, and quit jerking us around.

[TonyMontana]

You and me both.

[TonyMontana]

See everyone tomorrow.

This sounds to me like you are unlynchable? Is that true? If true why did you not say something sooner?

1)because this proves im town, rather then everyone trying to take me at my word for it.
2)its early, and even numbers, so it seemed like a good time-if any.
3)the bandwagon seemed like it would provide useful information, especially since i don't actually die.

So the upside is now im confirmed town since an unlynchable scum is unheard of. the bad part is im

gonna get night killed

tonight since im confirmed.

One can only hope.
The pro-town thing to do would be claiming and letting

us

decide whether we wanted to waste a lynch on you. But you instead wanted to use your role, apparantly for your own amusement. So giddy about being an unlynchable.....

[TonyMontana]

Is the concusses to let freeko watch tonight then? I was leaning towards letting Vi watch because I still think freeko to be scum.

consensus?
And did I miss a meeting? I'd let afatchic watch before i'd let freeko

[TonyMontana]

*Will not watch*
*will be behind rhinox taking the watch*

[TonyMontana]

get it on

[TonyMontana]

I support anyone who bolds watch right now

[TonyMontana]

Put me down for the shore..

Vi, I can't answer for what sypilis did, but I think you are overstating how I get on wagons. Personally, I would be more concerned of how korts seem to appear on every single wagon in your (conclusions excluded) nice compilation of votes.

Should we assume that the day-delayed reveal is just a part of the game, or is it possible that we (or someone) can do something to save the people?

Rhinox seems pretty keen on selling the idea of a mountain walk. Do you know something? (other then your profound flavour reasoning)

Why freeko? Before I thought Rhinox had shown interest in watching.

I would like for it to be Rhinox.

Something tells me he wants his teammate watching isntead of someone he doesnt know.

Well, who knows, maybe scum gets something out of a watch, cause it seems like we get bupkis.
Btw, what's your view on korts nowadays?

[TonyMontana]

And if you read the whole post, you would notice that I covered that already.

And this conflicts with my wish for your priorities how?

I'm giving you this

you can't be serious

look over the Internet.

Gives a

how dare you question my sincerity

look back

[TonyMontana]

I've already explained why I do not believe Korts is guilty - I do not think Juls was bussing him.

WELL GOOD FOR YOU /christian bale

No, but seriously, you're arguing against nothing here. I'm not questioning your beliefs about korts. Why can't you just let me less convinced?

[TonyMontana]

Ok.
Hi Vi. I think your criticism of me is a stretch.
I think you were onto something with korts, tho.
Moreso with Rhinox. Skimming his last post sent chills up my scumdar (conveniently planted in my spine).

Take me in the spirit I'm intended.

Good night.

[TonyMontana]

He is all over the place. Almost right off the bat, he pegs Juls as scum and in the same post votes for Korts. This is the first alarm bell that went off when I isolated his posts. The problem is I dont know what to make of it. Good guess maybe?

Well, I didn't exactly peg him as scum, but he stood out in my read-through of D2. Should've stuck with it..
On another note, when looking back at then, I think it korts does seem more likely to be town based on his interaction with Juls. (not a word, Vi -.-)

The consensus is that he claimed sheep #2 if I am not mistaken, yet I thnk in his next post he took that claim back. That he later reclaimed sheep and says that his "im not a sheep" thing was a joke? I dont get it.

You're using too many words. Like "consensus".
The part about me taking back my sheep claim was an obvious joke. (even had a tounge smiley attached to it, if i remember correctly)

He does seem to go after korts (who was already claimed as a sheep for some time) rather repeatedly during D2. The only thing I want clarified by him is whats up with you and korts?

I can't remember really going after korts that much on day 2. What i remember was being annoyed by your tunnelvision regarding him. I do admit I was sucpicious, but it was more of an Juls/Korts, not Juls+Korts, when analyzing it, which took me alittle time to come to terms with.

[TonyMontana]

There's 3 scenarios I would want raider to claim in.
1. He is facing a lynch.
2. A sheep is facing a lynch.
3. A third person claims sheep.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of holding a seperate vote on the subject. If you want a claim out of someone, convince the town of their scummyness.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 3-1

Rhinox - 1 (Korts)

Not Voting - 6 (Vi, tubby, Rhinox, Raider, freeko, TonyMontana)

With seven alive, it takes four to lynch.

[TonyMontana]

I'm just saying in the event that if another sheep was to claim, that would be a reason for raider to claim what kind of info he has, considering he has already claimed knowledge of there only being 2 sheeps in the game.

[TonyMontana]

Would you tell a cop on D3 (potentially) lylo not to claim even if they could confirm 2 innocents?

Well, the difference is raider has already claimed his "innocents" and a dead unclaimed cop does not talk.

I just feel that at this point, I would rather have as much ambiguity as possible for the scum stepping into night 3, because if we were to mislynch today we will likely be at lylo tomorrow. So if a claim is not relevant to where the lynch is going, I don't think it's mandated.

[TonyMontana]

Once it was announced that their could be another sheep we had another claim and the claim seemed more to be testing the waters to see if it would be an acceptable claim.

Look, I was the one asking enough questions to find out the truth about your sheep claim. With good reason, seeing as to how it pertained to me.

TM could very well be sheep as well but still unclear, in his other games i have seen when he is scum his posts are very short but as town he seems to type alot.

I'm confused, are you saying I'm posting more than when I'm scum or less than when I'm town?
In any case, I love people who've barely played with me giving me worthless meta

I overheard Occam talking to a sheep. So if what he says is trust worth then so if my information. The problem and I am not sure how to explain this is that he was only talking to a sheep. So I can only confirm that there is one sheep in the game. What was said is not really important anymore as Occam is dead.

1. When did you overhear?
2. How did you overhear?
3. I don't think it's up to you to decide whether what was said is relevant.
4. I believe you, because what you claim fits with my role.

[TonyMontana]

@tm what i am saying is you post less and your posts are smaller when you are scum, you put more detail in as town

I got that part (not that I agree), what i was wondering was which you think i'm doing now? scum or town?

[TonyMontana]

Here's my offer. I still think Rhinox is scum; hell, I'm convinced 100%. I don't want him to nightkill tonight. So lynch Rhinox today, lynch me tomorrow if he turns out to be what he claims to be-which he won't. A 1:1 trade is very good even at this point.

The only 1:1 trade that's gonna happen here is if someone else claims the juls kill. In absence of a counterclaim, I have to believe Rhinox.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, offering trades = scummy.

[TonyMontana]

Again, freeko, you use a whole lot of words, but you say

nothing

I take it back, I'm not a sheep :p
But seriously, sheep, keep your mouth shut, and lets stop this premature claiming, sheep or not.

Now wtf is this. A takeback on the claim?

First of all, talk about a travesty of an out-of-context quote.

Since you are so terrible at quoting, I'll just post the full quote myself, with added red colour on self-explanatory parts (the boldness was not added)

Someone is trying to make sure the sheep get to the next town for who knows what reason. Its a make sure they get there type thing and not a everyone must be dead type thing. That is why I think the sheep is town.

Your win condition isn't to prevent this from happening, is it?
I'm being (sort of) facetious, but in any case, if there's an objective of getting some sheep to town, is it not possible someone has an objective of stopping this? Or it might just simply be in the interest of the scum.

I take it back, I'm not a sheep

:p
But seriously

, sheep, keep your mouth shut, and lets stop this premature claiming, sheep or not.

Honestly, the ":p" and "But seriously" didn't give away that I was jokingly pretending to take back the sheep claim because I just hypothesized being an outed sheep could be dangerous? Anyone who continues to bring up this "faux pas" is either a dimwit or opportunistic. Or possibly both.

And me suggesting we didn't do a mass sheep count at that point were for the same concerns.

[TonyMontana]

ok i think i'l claim as well

i am a dumb sheep all i care about is getting to my next meal, i win when all threats to the town have been eliminated

weaksauce.

I am

Lost Sheep

I got separated from my herd, and wander around hoping my shepherd will eventually find me. The way I read the role pm, I figured there was a role of a shepherd looking for me, and something would happen if he found me (although what I didn't know)

This is why I said I was unsure whether I would be counted in whatever info raider had about the sheep.

[TonyMontana]

@tubby. So what you are saying, is that out of the three of us, you believe your claim to be the weakest?


I'd have more doubts about raider, if his story didn't fit so well with my own role.
Rhinox is so-so. I could definitely see him as an SK taking an shot on there not being a vig to counterclaim. I've seen alot worse strategies made as an SK, but still I don't believe he's the play for the day.
Vi/freeko, surely not both scum, and I think we can agree they're neighbours. But they can't confirm eachother, and if one of them were scum, i would put my money on freeko.

Which leaves me with our sheep trio, which at this point I am certain is harboring scum.
Obviously I know my own role. Which leads me to believe either korts or tubby is lying.
I think it is tubby. Not only did the claim of sheep come off as just weak, it seemed like the "vanilla" claim of a vanilla-less game. Just a townie, just a sheep.
That, coupled with the fact that he has, as far as I know, never alluded to being a sheep ever in the game (correct me if I'm wrong), makes me think the claim of sheep might have seemed like an easier endeavor than making up a suitable role.

vote:tubby

[TonyMontana]

What makes you think Raider and Tony are inherently town? Tony you should know was top on the night discussion list for Vi and I had made.

Yeah, how could you not suspect me, when freeko and Vi did last night?

[TonyMontana]

-Occam was mauled - disappeared in similar way to BSG (Occam was a mafia kill)

At the risk of making another "what did i miss?", wasn't Occam mugged?

[TonyMontana]

The claim as sheep is allright, but I agree with Vi that the ambigious claims of knowledge are bad.
All in all, the attack on rhinox has been ridiculously horrible. I'm not saying RX is def town, but he's def not mafia.

unvote

Any objections to a hammer at this point?

[TonyMontana]

Nail in coffin, indeed.

Vote: Korts

[TonyMontana]

Could care less. red herring.

[TonyMontana]

The curiosity in me wants to do it.

Still don't believe it matters.

[TonyMontana]

Votes doesn't count, tubby.

I'm having severe doubts about Raider now.

"Noisy Teenager" sounds really out of place in the theme. I thought the "I heard a shepherd talking about being distraught over losing a sheep" fit my role at first. But the more I think about it, the more it seems like it was created around somewhat known facts: 1. There's a shepherd. 2. A sheep died in the opening scene. 3. there must be another sheep.

What I wanna know is where's the japanese guy you overheard, and have you heard anything else?

[TonyMontana]

EBWOP: Nosy Teenager.
Damn yout, tubby, atleast i spelled teenager correctly -.-

[TonyMontana]

Path E

tic

[TonyMontana]

Considering we're prolly at LyLo, you don't wanna throw out votes so casually.

[TonyMontana]

Whoa, didn't notice BSGs rolename. That's pretty good evidence in your favor.

Now I dunno what your info is, but I'm definitely a sheep, and I'm definitely still here.
For all I know, Rhinox couldn't know about me, because I'm lost.

Vi is companion, and honestly I had freeko pegged for the scum part of the duo. Doubt Vi is.
tubby, on the other hand, is just a dumb sheep.

vote:tubby

[TonyMontana]

Well, this seems like an open and shut case....

vote:tubby

[TonyMontana]

Watch

[TonyMontana]

raider's claim was a bit off in retrospect, but congratulations on making it work wonderfully nonetheless. Was the Japanese thing only coincidence?

No, when I mugged someone I got their role PM, that is how I knew the information.

And that's why I figured you had to be the SK.

*highfives Juls and Korts*

GG

[TonyMontana]

Also, note that TonyMontana/Sipylus was the only role to place a hammer. All four of them xD

Well they don't call me captain hammer for nothing.

Actually they don't call me captain hammer.....

Anyways, good times

Also, when in doubt, look cute. And don't wagon EVERYONE who gets close to a lynch *coughTonyMontana*

I won, didn't I? :p

So, I was limited NK-immune as well? I'm so confused... I think I had a pretty damn powerful role, all things considered.

I thought by announcing in thread that I was expecting to be the obv-nk, you guys would leave me alive .

Seeing as we had tried to kill you before, I was convinced you knew about your immunity, the way you were announcing yourself as NK target. As you can read from the QT, i came *this* close to killing raider instead. Which would've saved me from the dilemma. -.-

[TonyMontana]

Well, good game. Sorry about the day I was lynched, I gained an alternate win-con of lyncher (target was of course Rhinox) and I

did

have information that strongly hinted Rhinox as Occam's killer: the PM in which I was told of the new win condition said that I knew Rhinox to have killed my shepherd and that I had to have him lynched that day. Unfortunately I was also told that I cannot directly reference any PM from the mod, and I think I had borderline violated that anyway... Sorry about this, it was very clumsy play.

Does explain alot. I was totally clueless as to what you were trying to pull.
Gotta suck being schizo :p

[TonyMontana]

Well they don't call me captain hammer for nothing.

Nonono, you're using double negatives. it's "they don't call me captain hammer for anything"

Anyway, if you're going to be Captain Hammer, who'll be your Dr. Horrible?

There is no Dr.Horrible to stop me in this world -.-

I don't understand the freeko hate, myself, I thought he played quite well once he got over the tunnel-vision thing (ironically he was right about me--but for all the wrong reasons, seeing as I

was

a sheep and the watch didn't turn up anything, exactly as I said). Being an asshole is part of the game.

If i were you, and you..err.. I was *not* scum, my blood would be boiling about freeko. But somehow when you're scum, you can't really blame when people tunnel you -.-