Mini 709 - Musical Mafia - (Game Over!)

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Hey, catching up. Awesome theme

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Some comments:

The first couple of pages look kind of like reaching to get out of the random voting stage. I don't think that anyone was really going for a quicklynch so early D1. If anything, I think scum might be

more

cautious in trying to avoid calling attention to themselves by piling votes on Atlas. That doesn't mean by any means that I think that the people on the early Atlas wagon are clear in any way, shape, or form, but I don't think that looking for scum just by looking at that wagon is necessarily fruitful.

Not liking Post 40 by corporate, though perhaps my reasons aren't logical; the last "slap on the wrist" vote I saw was from another game and it was cast by a mafia roleblocker. It was very similar to corporate's post, not completely explaining away the vote as random, but not acknowledging it as a 100% serious vote either. Knowing that the scum from the other game performed an identical move makes me feel uneasy about corporate. If I were to dig a little deeper for reasoning on that, maybe it's the "playing both sides" tactic that's so often a favorite of scum.

Atlas looks pretty town as I'm reading. He brings up some good points and doesn't seem to be blindsighted by people defending him.

jersey is reaching in Post 46. Reaching, as I said earlier, is necessary to get out of the random vote stage, because honestly there's not a whole lot to work with. Reaching at that point in the game (at least without admitting you're reaching) is scummy. His explanation of why he thinks that Wall-E was trying to "jumpstart" a wagon on Atlas doesn't sound like an explanation of why he thinks that Wall-E was trying to "jumpstart" a wagon on Atlas at all. To me it's just a bunch of straw-grasping.

Gamma's claim post was unnecessary. He says he was drunk. Based on my skim of recent events, though, we're guiding him to NK someone in particular. If he is the SK, we'll know by tomorrow if he doesn't NK who we choose. At the time it must have looked pretty scummy, but it's hard to put myself in that situation because I wasn't there. Gamma's willingness to follow the interests of the town is making me feel pretty comfortable with leaving him alive for now.

In post 51 Budja advocates lynching the vig

even if he is the vig

. Doesn't say he thinks he's lying. He says that if Gamma is going to act like this, he's more of a liability than a help. If Budja believes that Gamma is a real vig, he should be looking elsewhere for scum. That kind of attitude is more anti-town than Gamma's attitude.

Same thing from zachattack in the next post. Starts out saying that Gamma is good as scum with that kind of attitude even as a vig, but this time the post as a whole sounds a little better since zachattack actually sounds like he doesn't believe that Gamma is a vig.

Wall-E doesn't seem to have the interests of the town in mind, but it's not a "scummy" vibe I'm getting from him. It's a misguided, yet simultaneously loud and obnoxious vibe.

Tolmides actually seems genuine so far in my read. His suspicion of Nekka, though incorrect, doesn't appear contrived. I'll talk more about this one and more, but for now I have to go.

This is just the first part of my catch-up post. I guess I'm probably going pretty slow so far, and should probably just hit the highlights, but I was trying to do that and I wasn't really gaining much from the read. So bear with me if I'm a little long-winded.

I know I'm replacing under a lot of pressure, but just give me a chance. It might anger some of you that a prime suspect is getting replaced. I always like it when players don't get replaced out, because it's less confusing. But we can't have Nekka back, so it is better that he be replaced. It can be annoying, but it's the rational thing.

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I'm coming back with more reads in a bit sorry. It's 5 hours a day of practice now. Brutal.

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Oops, forgot to

unvote

since my predecessor's vote is still here. Continuing my reread.

Well, actually, first I'll respond to a few things that have happened recently.

@Budja: I know Gamma hasn't been very pro-town. He's #2 on my "abrasive" list just below Wall-E, who is acting like a complete and utter clown, and an angry clown at that. I suppose he probably will have no choice but to follow our lead even if he is the SK. But we can still use him as a vig if he will follow us. If it becomes clear he is a SK, we will of course lynch him before he becomes a real threat. At this point if he is an SK, he has very little chance of winning since he is forced to follow us or get lynched, and we all have our eye on him anyway. It might raise a few eyebrows, but I have no problem using Gamma for the benefit of the town no matter whether he's pro-town or not.

@WhereIsTony: It is a legitimate concern that one person's alignment may reveal another person's alignment, thus changing the ideal NK target. Why not tell Gamma before the day ends that if the lynch target flips town, to change your choice to another NK target? It may sound confusing when I explain it, but I don't think it would actually be that confusing. It might be kind of like this:

NK Mr. Y if Ms. X (lynch target) flips scum
NK Mr. Z if Ms. X (lynch target) flips town

@Tolmides: Wall-E always seems to radiate scumminess, but I have never seen him so blindly aggressive before. Usually he seems more misguided and flip-floppy than annoying and tunnel-visioned.

OK, now back to the reread.

Backing up a bit: Wall-E accuses Nekka-Lucifer of "follow-the-wagon opportunism" in Post 24 when he confirms his vote on Gamma, citing that Gamma's vote on Atlas was a bit suspicious. If anyone reeked of "follow-the-wagon opportunism", it was Gamma for putting the 4th vote on Atlas. The fact that Wall-E seems to have a double standard on that concerns me. Especially since Nekka was the first to put a non-random vote on Gamma. Again, though, that happened in a phase of the game in which some reaching is necessary. Plus, I guess it would be difficult for Gamma to pull off his claim if he were part of the mafia, so I don't see Wall-E/Gamma scumbuddies. Still, Wall-E's accusation seems baseless, and I don't like that.

In general, as I read jerseygoomba's posts, I'm getting a general feeling of him constantly trying to please the town. Even his accusations give off a feeling of trying to convince others that he is town. Many of his posts are pure defense with no added content whatsoever. He unvotes Gamma when it becomes unpopular. And look at this:

Since the town seems so dead set on keeping Gamma around tonight, I will

unvote Gamma

But I still do not see how his kill can be "proven".

Guys, do you SERIOUSLY think you have any "control" over Gamma? Especially when there is no concrete ways of validating who killed who? We don't even know if Gamma's claim is true. I think we are deluding ourselves if we think we can point Gamma like a gun and "shoot" people. That being said, I'm not convinced Gamma is scum, which is why I unvoted him.

Obviously something doesn't add up here. First jersey unvoted Gamma because he thought that a Gamma vote was pointless since the town was largely against lynching Gamma. Later he claims the reason he unvoted was because he was not convinced that Gamma was scum. I'm sure jerseygoomba would say that I am nitpicking, and that the reason he unvoted involved a little bit of both rationales. I would beg to differ. I see this as evidence that jerseygoomba decides to vote or unvote and

then

decides why. And that, my friends, would mean that his cases are contrived. And that, my friends, would mean that he is scum.

Moving on. I don't see any problem with WhereIsTony's Mafia RB'er assumption. It can only be beneficial to the town to assume a Mafia Roleblocker exists in the game. Sure, it can be a scumslip to take information that the town doesn't know for granted. But it is good for the town to prepare for the worst. It would be a mistake not to consider the possibility of (a) non-vanilla mafia member(s), and the RB'er is the most basic and the most common.

In post 273, Tolmides implies that we will know if there is an RB'er after N1. This is not necessarily true. Even though the town is voting on who to NK, we could still be wrong. If our majority NK target is town, I'm sure the Mafia RB'er, if there is one, will sit back and twiddle his thumbs as another townie dies. This leads to some intriguing thoughts on whether or not we can tell if an RB'ed Gamma means that Gamma's target=scum, but I won't dive that deeply into WIFOM just now. Just suffice it to say that we really may not know whether or not there is a Mafia RB'er by tomorrow.

If anyone is dissatisfied with Nekka's Role PM fiasco, I will say that I am indeed a clarinet player. I win when all the brass instruments are kicked out of the band. There is nothing about winning when the woodwinds win in my role PM. At risk of fulfilling Wall-E's prophecy, I must say that I can't tell you why Nekka thought that there was something like that in his role PM. All I can offer is that "You win when the woodwinds win" has a nice ring to it. Woodwinds win. Woodwinds win. OK, that was a joke, but honestly, that's all I can and will say about that.

K, to continue. You may have noticed I failed to mention corporate and zachattack very much. That's because I'm getting a very neutral read on them. If you've played with me before, you should know that I hate neutral reads. So, tomorrow I want to look at them a little more, but I will focus on my scum reads for now. Here is my scumlist and my final decision.

Town reads (strongest to weakest):

Me!
MyMilkedEek
Atlas
Tolmides
WhereIsTony
JordanA24

Neutral reads:

corporate
zachattack
Gamma
Wall-E

Scum reads (strongest to weakest):

jerseygoomba
Budja

Why did Wall-E land himself in my neutral column? Good question. I put him in the scum section at first, but then I thought about how I have a stronger scum read on jerseygoomba and Budja than on Wall-E, who could easily be obnoxious and grossly misguided town, and jerseygoomba and Budja are either bussing him hard or they are not scumbuddies. Wall-E's tipping toward my scum section, but I hesitate to fill up a scumlist with people who are not consistent with each other. My opinion of Wall-E will change drastically if one of these two flip town, or vice versa. It may be like voting for a third party candidate at this point, but I can't justify revoting Wall-E, no matter how good it might feel.

Vote: jerseygoomba

NK: jerseygoomba

because I'm pretty sure Wall-E will get lynched, not jerseygoomba. In the remote case that jerseygoomba DOES get lynched, I will support a

NK: Budja

.

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask.

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Useless EBWOP: Screwed up the bold tags, but you know what I mean.

Fixed.

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Good posting, zach. That analysis feels genuine. I definitely could see Wall-E as an easy target for scum. I hate saying things like that, because I feel like in a way it enables players to act scummy without getting lynched, but in this case, yes, I think it is appropriate. Wall-E is attacking this game in the wrong way and gaining a lot of enemies. He's an easy mislynch if he's town. That is something to consider.

My reasons for suspecting Budja? I suppose I haven't been specific enough on it, probably because it's mostly gut. But I am of the theory that a "gut feeling" is a subconscious interpretation of something more tangible, and if you put in the effort you can usually figure out where the feeling came from, so I'll try to explain:

I am only voting for Nekka to encourage him posting. I did not expect him to be pushed to L-2. I would like to target two of Nekka, corporate and Wall-E for the NK and lynch.

Budja was only voting for Nekka to encourage him posting, he didn't expect to get him so close to a lynch, yet he simultaneously admits to wanting him dead? That makes NO sense. Budja rides the fence a LOT, Budja, but this is a really extreme example of it. He's trying to distance himself from putting Nekka at L-2, yet his subsequent sentence suggests he wouldn't squirm if he got lynched/NK'd tonight.

Reading Budja's posts in isolation is really funny. Check out these little gems, which occur one after another right after the post I just quoted:

Alright, I'll follow my gut instinct.

unvote, vote Wall-E

I just didn't want the day to end before Nekka posted. WhereIsTony is about right in what I meant to do.

Oh whoops , to be honest I didn't know. I guess I should have counted.

unvote

I most definitely do not want to rush which is why I unvoted Wall-E in the first place.

Whoa, thats a bit hasty isn't it.

vote: Wall-E

, (L-2, I did count)
I think I should have left my vote where it was originally. You are still number 1 on my list and that post just convinces me all the more.

I also read the context of these posts. I'm not sure I really understand what Budja meant when he said that something was a bit hasty, because no votes had changed between these two posts that I noticed. Budja just reads as frantic to me, working hard to buddy up to the town while refusing to bus his scum partners, which manifests as fence-sitting and wishy-washiness. The parroting thing could also be explained as an attempt to buddy up to the town.

OK, that's what I think about Budja, though there is still a lot of gut involved. Hope I've explained why I want him NK'd if jerseygoomba is lynched.

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sks don't claim vig d1

Not even drunk SK's?

it's not scummy to opt for a nekka lynch - nothing nekka's replacement can say will change my mind on nekka - sorry if you disagree

Do you plan to even read my posts, then?

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For me, the fact that MME shares my instrument reinforces the idea that he is town. It is not a claim/counterclaim situation at all. He is on the top of my town list partially for that reason.

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Woodwinds=town seems logical. It is implied, though not stated, that we are in some sort of a "band", as in a concert band, or wind philharmonic, in which the main instruments are woodwinds and brass, perhaps with some percussion on the side. If the brass are scum, it would make sense that the woodwinds would be town.

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Oh, I was talking more about the flavor text in Riceballtail's introduction than actual PM's. I'm sick of this PM quoting too. It seems against the spirit of the game.

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I think we should

A) Decide for him

or

B) Lynch him

I do not like

C) Leave him to his own devices, relieving him of any responsibility for his night actions

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That's a viable option too. I just don't want to leave him unattended because I am not confident enough that he is pro-town yet.

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Wall-E, that's a good observation, but you aren't voting for your #1 suspect, either. That is, assuming that your #1 suspect is me, which I don't think you'd argue with. Unfortunately I don't think you bother to read my posts, so if someone else could relay this to Wall-E, I would appreciate it.

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I don't think the flavor will reveal much in this game. I don't think anyone gets killed, just "kicked out."

Vote Count:
Atlas - (0)
Budja - (1) Wall-E
corporate - (0)
Gamma - (0)
jerseygoomba - (4) Atlas, Gamma, RestFermata, zachattack
JordanA24 - (0)
My Milked Eek - (0)
RestFermata - (1) Tolmides
Tolmides - (0)
Wall-E - (6) My Milked Eek, corporate, jerseygoomba, Budja, JordanA24, WhereIsTony
WhereIsTony - (0)
zachattack - (0)

With 12 alive, 7 votes will end the day.

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Nice lovers' spat between Gamma and Wall-E.

Seriously though, Wall-E is being very uncooperative. I don't really think he's the scummiest player, but he is surely among the least helpful. On top of that, he enjoys being unhelpful. I honestly think he is not mafia, however. I agree with this from zachattack:

Wall-E is a very easy lynch for scum to justify, his abrasiveness makes him a good target for scum to get rid of during the day and still come off as a pro town play.

I could be wrong, but right now I still think jerseygoomba/Budja is a better choice. Still not sure what to think of corporate--something about the way he ridiculed WIT for talking about a mafia roleblocker rubs me wrong. If corporate is scum, I will be pretty sure there is a mafia roleblocker and corporate is trying to get everyone to ignore the possibility, but I'm not convinced he's scum yet. JG/Budja are still winning the race by far, though.

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Hey I'm here, finals week is almost over.

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Ten days, actually.

Input? I'm still suspicious of jersey and Budja. I still want jersey lynched and Budja NK'ed. I still do not agree with Wall-E at all, but I do not find him to be likely scum because of a lack of possible scumbuddy relationships with other players that I find scummy. I am finding WIT less town and zachattack more town lately. I'll go into more detail later and support these statements, but this is the gist of it.

Vote Count:
Atlas - (0)
Budja - (1) Wall-E
corporate - (0)
Gamma - (0)
jerseygoomba - (4) Atlas, Gamma, RestFermata, zachattack
JordanA24 - (0)
My Milked Eek - (0)
RestFermata - (1) Tolmides
Tolmides - (0)
Wall-E - (5) My Milked Eek, corporate, jerseygoomba, Budja, JordanA24
WhereIsTony - (0)
zachattack - (0)

With 12 alive, 7 votes will end the day.

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Very limited access until the 27th/28th of December. My viewpoints haven't really changed. I am not too pleased about the deadline, especially since there is a possibility of forcing a NL. My NK choice is staying unless something significant happens between now and deadline. My vote will also stay unless I am afraid its placement will cause a deadline NL. I really don't want that to happen, so I'll be trying to check in whenever I can get the Internet.

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Back!

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Well...I want to spark discussion but I'm not quite sure what to say. Jersey, I don't think Wall-E is acting "scummy." I think he is acting like a bona fide jerk. I learned a lot from my newbie game, in which PEG acted like a jerk the entire game, especially towards me (tunneling on me the entire game) yet he was town, and so was I. He got lynched, and the wagon included some experienced town players, including Adel. It was hard to discern his alignment because he was being so pig-headed, but it's a little easier, I think, with Wall-E, because he has participated a lot more than PEG did that game. I just don't see him being a correct choice for a lynch right now--maybe that opinion will change, but for now I think it's a mistake.

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Despite my reservations, I'd rather see a Wall-E lynch than let this game vegetate like this. This is just sad.

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I agree with zachattack against jersey. All of Jersey's recent posts have been bland, generic "I'm town" defenses that mean nothing at all. What does he expect, that we'll go "OH you're town? EVERYBODY GET YOUR VOTES OFF! Jersey claimed pro-town!" I can expect that he should defend himself, but honestly, his defenses have been unspecific and unsatisfactory.

I think Gamma should NK Budja. He played the "not a good player" card when I called him out for acting scummy. If Gamma gets RB'ed, fine. All the more reason to string up Budja. Maybe it's WIFOM, but I'm fairly certain he's scum anyway.

As for Wall-E, I don't think Gamma should kill him. Not yet. That'd just be letting him distract the town in

yet another

way in my opinion. I really don't think he's scummy. If both Budja and jersey end up being town, well, that'll be a different story. But at this point I'm betting that one if not both of them are scum and that Wall-E is town. I'd opt for a scum death over an annoying townie death any day.

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Well I don't much like that kind of logic either, WIT. It's just that if my top two suspects are town, I'm going to have to start rethinking things. I don't have much else to go on if Budja and jersey flip town.

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Yep I'm here.

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I'm so sorry KoC. I really hope you are OK.

I don't know what to think about this game. I was so sure at least one of Budja or jersey had to be scum, and they were both town. I'm definitely going to have to reread. I'm thinking WIT or corporate, but that's preliminary.

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You know, it reminds me that I have absolutely nothing to complain about. I'm truly sorry, KoC. I'm rooting for you 100%.

I'll probably have a post to jumpstart this day pretty soon. I'm sure I'll be a major suspect today since I was one of the main advocates for killing both jersey and Budja, but...well, that's the way the game goes, I suppose. I'll still want to get my thoughts in.

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EBWOP. You can probably expect it Monday or Tuesday.

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Ugh, I'm really trying to find the time to post. My schedule's a mess right now and I'm trying to work things out.

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Yes, it does suck for me. But what can I do? I can attempt to explain the actions of my predecessor, but it's just as theoretical as something you guys might come up with, except for the fact that I am 100% sure of my alignment and you are not.

Also, it sucks to have a malfunctioning scumdar. But I am suspicious of corporate and WIT. Mostly corporate, for contradicting himself. Try to reconcile these quotes:

tony knows RB exist in theory and wants to protect the town from such possibilities.

what a asshole huh wall e?

i think its pretty anti town to NOT consider a RB as a option. so.... kudos to tony.

---

and all this IF talk about a blocker from you has really got me thinking. I know, what if the mob has the mob on thier side and can mod kill anyone any time?! what if im a jester and i wanna be a jack ass and get lynched?
who knows? also, i feel better letting him hide his status UNTIL we have a confident kill for him. better to let him live another day, than to kill an innocent townie.

...

and wall e the jester speculation was just me trying to say us playing like there is a role blocker when we are not sure if there is one or not is just as stupid as playing as if there is a jester when someone acts like a jack ass. or someone has a PR when lurking. etc etc..

To me, this kind of hypocrisy reeks of scumminess. When you're scum, all of your cases and opinions about the game are pretty much fake. So it's easy to contradict yourself without noticing it because it's not really something you feel strongly about; it's just something you're pretending to feel strongly about. So I think that's scummy from corporate. Plus corporate seems to always be looking to pick a fight, maybe cast some suspicion around, yet doesn't really back it up, and then just says "it's my playstyle, so deal with it." Not a fan.

As for WIT, it's not that concrete. It's not so much the RB'er thing, really. I feel like maybe I

could

be letting something slide there, but the thing is in Family Guy Mini I garnered quite a bit of suspicion for suggesting scum might have fakeclaims. Everyone thought I was scum with a fakeclaim because I brought that up, as if the

only

people who have ever imagined a fakeclaim in a theme game would be scum, of course. Now, I didn't get lynched, but it was definitely a hot topic for a while. So Tony bringing up the possibility of a mafia roleblocker reminds me of that. I don't see it as a scumtell, though in light of being way off about jersey and Budja, I am willing to consider that maybe I

should

see it as a scumtell. The reason I'm a little iffy about WIT is, yet again, another (perceived) contradiction:

I am always supicious when people start saying if (name) is town than (other name must be scum).

---

in the interest of spurring discussion

vote wall-e
If Wall E were town
nightkill corporate

If Walle were scum.
nightkill resta

It's not airtight, but there appears to be a bit of a discrepancy here. Tony is basically saying he is suspicious of me for saying that if both Budja and jersey are town, I might reconsider about Wall-E. He misinterpreted me as saying that Wall-E's alignment is dependent on Budja's and jersey's, when I really meant that I might have to rethink the way I'm attacking this game if both my main suspects are wrong. But the point is, he later does the exact same thing he accused me of. Sure, he doesn't say it outright, but he acts as if my alignment is dependent on that of Wall-E. It isn't much, but again, I'm not a big fan of hypocrisy. If I act hypocritical, feel free to call me out on it, because I try to be a stable thinker. But if you can't, expect me to catch other people at it.

I would normally wait for more input from corporate/the people who just replaced in, but since this game is stalling (again) I'm just going to go ahead and vote and see if it sparks anything.

Vote: corporate

I agree that Gamma shouldn't NK.

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Can't say I'm happy with that sentiment, Wall-E, but at least you've stopped calling me Nekka-Lucifer.

I don't quite understand something, though, Wall-E. Gamma agreed to follow the town's wishes as far as the NK a long time ago, you knew (or should have known) that we chose Budja and he agreed with it, and yet you never spoke up/voted until now. Did you not read, did you think he wasn't really going to go through with it, or did you only now find something wrong with it? Or comical fourth option?

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Wish there was more I could do to sway you, Wall-E, but since you've already made it known that it's impossible, I'll just concentrate on corporate right now, my #1 target.

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How about you worry about your own vote, Tony.

YOU'RE kidding, right? We're not supposed to hold people responsible for their votes and the things they say? Wow. That's scummy.

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Agreed, Trumpet. A lot of those things are holes in corporate's logic that I was picking up but couldn't quite place. All I really noticed was 36.

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I see WIT's recent posts as trying to distance himself from his previous Mafia RB speculation/possible inside knowledge, which many people (I'm rethinking not being among that group) found scummy. You know, based on the failed NK, I bet there is a Mafia RB'er. And I bet WIT knew all about it. And now he's stopped touting that horn because he knows it'll make him look bad. Wait a minute--horn? Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have a brass player!

Vote: WhereIsTony

Additionally, why is everyone hopping on the ToD wagon so fast? I haven't found him scummy at all. The mod just came out and said the flavor didn't necessarily indicate anything about him being unnightkillable.

Now, the lack of a Gamma kill could be any number of things, and I'm not going to rule any of them out. But in light of Tony's change of tune about the RB'er, I'm inclined to believe it was a mafia RB.

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But you do not find anything he has said scummy?

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EBWOP. I hope you know that's L-1.

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I'm a little thrown off by Wall-E claiming to have "reasons" though.

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EBWOP - Oh...duh, just realized something. I need some time to think about this.

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How can you call that chainsaw defense when I've been saying I wanted to look at you after corporate since yesterday? And you're still doing that "If X is town, Y is scum" thing that you say is scummy, by the way.

Vote Count:
Gamma - (0)
Knight of Cydonia - (0)
magisterrain - (0)
My Milked Eek - (0)
RestFermata - (0)
Trumpet of Doom - (4) Gamma, Knight of Cydonia, Wall-E, WhereIsTony
Wall-E - (0)
WhereIsTony - (2) Rest Fermata, Trumpet of Doom

With 8 alive, 5 votes will end the day.

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Oh, the other chainsaw defense. I thought you were talking about the Tarhalindur version.

Anyway, I can understand why a bari sax might be a miller, but I can tell that ToD knows enough about music to make that up convincingly.

FoS

, just for that, but I sure as hell don't want to hammer until we've talked about this more.

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Yes, they're made of brass but they are not a "brass instrument". They are a member of the woodwind family, which you just said. That's why I can understand it being a miller, especially if the "cop" role is flavored to something like "PM me the name of a player and I will tell you what material his/her instrument is made of". However, I'm wary of claimed millers in general, especially "implied" millers, because that seems like playing both sides. Especially since ToD is a musician, so he would know that bari sax would be a good instrument for miller.

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No. Are you really arguing with me? I am in my university's jazz band. When the director says, "BRASS, play this package," it means "trombones and trumpets, not saxophones." Saxophones are woodwinds. It says so in the passage Gamma quoted.

I'm not saying ToD is surely not scum, but if ToD is scum, he is LYING about being a saxophone because a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, even though it is made of brass. Look it up.

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Gamma, I was actually thinking the same exact thing during class today.

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Wait...did i really say "play this package"? I meant "passage." I was in a big hurry. Haha.

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Why did you unvote, Wall-E? Can you stop being cryptic for 5 seconds?

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Godfathers don't usually claim miller, do they? That doesn't really make any sense to me.

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I guess it's pretty clear that KoC was referring to Gamma. I missed that because I can't imagine how Gamma could be a GF. The mafia (brass players) clearly were the ones who killed zachattack, while Gamma was the one who killed Budja. So I don't understand how KoC thinks Gamma could possibly be part of the mafia.

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Looks like the most likely explanation is:

Gamma attempts to shoot ToD, which fails because ToD is unkillable. Mafia attempts to kill Gamma, which fails because of Wall-E's doc protection. In this case, ToD is lying about his role and is likely mafia.

Wow, that's pretty damning. But Wall-E, why did you unvote, then, if nothing about that changed?

I want to hear from ToD before the hammer, if only to see him squirm, but this is enough to convince me unless some other groundbreaking results come in. I had really believed ToD was town, too. Ugh, I suck at this game.

Vote: Trumpet of Doom

I still think WiT may be scum, though, despite their caustic exchange today. I saw some pretty incredible busing going on in the Family Guy large theme so it's definitely not something I'm going to discount.

[RestFermata]

I know you still think I'm scum, Wall-E. Would you like a hat to eat when you find out I'm a clarinet player?

[RestFermata]

That sounds pretty unlikely. I'd actually find it more likely that they NK'ed instead of both RBing Gamma and targetting Gamma at the same time, and that doesn't seem too likely because I doubt they could have anticipated that this mess would happen and set up a frame. I don't see any idiots here. Well, I don't know about magisterrain, because he's not saying anything, but as for the rest of us, we seem like reasonably intelligent people. And no one but magisterrain is "AWOL" as far as I can tell.

Look, I think it's pretty clear that ToD has been caught. If not, ToD, you still have to accept that that is the most likely explanation for everyone else, and we have to consider the most likely explanation, not some "this is also remotely possible" sort of speculative defense. Power role use doesn't give 100% reliable information--if it did, it would be overpowered. There are roles, both scum and town, to balance out PR's. There are also situations that can neutralize the usefulness of a PR, and if the scum both killed and RB'd Gamma while Wall-E protected him and Gamma tried to kill you, that would be one of them. But we have to consider the most probable scenario.

Basically, we're found a bunch of hoofprints, and we've concluded that they were made by horses. And you, ToD, are exclaiming, "But they could be zebras!" Yes, they could be zebra, but Occam's razor applies here. You'd probably lynch you too if you were in our shoes.

[RestFermata]

Anything useful, KoC?

[RestFermata]

I'm really sorry about that, KoC. We're all pulling for you.

MME, I have thought for the whole game that you were town. In fact, we have the same reason for calling each other town--the clarinet player thing. It is well-known that in some games the scum are given the vanilla town PM for fakeclaims, but the way you backed Nekka up after he claimed clarinet seemed genuine and not a setup, so I believed you.

You also believed me because of this. But now that we are down to the wire and you are definitely in a small pool of suspects along with me, you are willing to disregard that. It really

does

look like you were trying to shift suspicion away from yourself. I know that when you are town, from your POV it is easy to forget that you are as much a suspect as another, but we can't afford these kinds of moves so late in the game.

I don't think there is a Serial Killer, KoC, because Serial Killers are usually required to kill every night, right? And Gamma apparently didn't submit a kill, just like you asked him not to. The Mafia Roleblocker is dead. If you are thinking it is someone other than Gamma, then we have not seen a kill from the SK yet, so I find it unlikely.

So, I am most suspicious of WIT right now. The way he voted ToD very early in the wagon reads like someone with extra information, and it really does seem like a bus to me. Look at this:

my suspect list from scummiest to cleanest

Wall-E
corporate
jerseygoomba
Tolmides
Budja
Atlas
Gamma
RestFermata Nekka-Lucifer
zachattack
JordanA24
My Milked Eek
WhereIsTony

And he has not stuck to this at all. I was 8th scummiest, yet I became very high on his suspicions list later on. He never said anything about ToD's posts (avoiding the scumbuddy? maybe so) and yet JordanA24 was close to cleanest until people started suspecting him...perhaps he felt it was time to throw him under the bus before people started suspecting him of defending a scumbuddy. I'm not sure, but it looks kind of bad to me. Additionally, he was right about there being a Mafia Roleblocker. Surprise!

I know it's WIFOM, but ToD's parting comments toward WIT make him look more like a scumbuddy than toward MME. We know ToD was angry with his scumbuddy for submitting the wrong kill. So although it could be a trick, I can't help but take into account that ToD may have been giving us more information than he intended.

As for me, I am a suspect, and I will attempt to defend myself against any accusations brought at me. I will not speak for Nekka-Lucifer, but I will debunk what I think was the main case against him:

1.) Nekka-Lucifer accuses Gamma of quoting his role PM when Gamma says something about "I win when the woodwinds win"

2.) Others accuse Nekka-Lucifer of not having the town PM, and Nekka claims clarinet player.

Clarinet player has been proven to be the vanilla townie role. So if Nekka-Lucifer was scum, he definitely had knowledge of the Clarinet Player role--most likely a copy of the town role PM, which is usually done in games when scum are given vanilla as a fakeclaim, no? So even as scum he would have knowledge of this PM. Scum or town, he genuinely forgot the win condition. So this is no case at all--it is a nulltell.

And that is all I can say for Nekka-Lucifer.

[RestFermata]

I was referring to this

Tony, you already know what I'm going to tell you, I don't need to say it.

[RestFermata]

Oh, and MME, theoretically that would work, but if KoC dies then we will never know the results of the investigation.

[RestFermata]

Guess we're ready? Seems straightforward enough.

Vote: WhereIsTony

Unless I missed something and Tony hammered himself, this was the hammer.

[RestFermata]

I brought ketchup, Wall-E.

Good game, everybody!

[RestFermata]

I was so sure I was going to get lynched when I replaced in. And when I was wrong about both jersey and Budja, i thought that had sealed it.

[RestFermata]

I was pissed that I had to play a transposing instrument.