Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!

[Juls]

/confirm in.... I will do a read and try to get some thoughts up ASAP.

[Juls]

I have done a read through but I may not be able to get a post up before twilight ends. I would like to suggest either Rhinox or Sipylus. There are a lot of questions about everybody else IMO and since my predecessor made a whopping 3 posts prior to his departure I wouldn't feel comfortable with taking the role.

[Juls]

I assumed it to be like a watcher:

Watcher

[Juls]

@siphylus: ...

Not game related:
Be careful with the "h" in

sipylus

...it changes the entire name and kinda grosses me out.

[Juls]

Yeah I don't want to start a big conversation...I meant it more as it made me chuckle so I was hoping everyone else could chuckle too. It's a common misspelling of Syphilis...carry on.

[Juls]

@Rhinox...I took the mod's comment to mean that it has little effect on the game dynamics. In other words, the path we choose in the morning will effect what people can do in day/night but the watchman is just a decision that will be made every twighlight and will do the same thing every night.

I am confused by this though:

No one person can keep watch twice per night.

@Mod

: Does that mean that if the watchman is already a watcher he/she will not be able to watch two people or does it mean that no one will be able to be watchman twice?

@raider - I would have also liked a vote (or at least a consensus) or just a random dice roll for fairness.

[Juls]

Mod: Is this a no reveal game?

Thoughts tomorrow...bedtime now.

[Juls]

So this is my scum-read on everyone thus far. I have some questions inter-mixed in there and if you want a tl;dr you can just look at the "status" portion under everyone's name. Note though that this is my scumread, not my townread. But in addition to the status's please look at Occam's section because I have a theory about his status.

Rogue Shenanigans (Megaflareon)

================================
-Chose a path without consultation. It was the first post of the game so I assume he did it because it had little effect on the game as the mod indicated. I have no problem with it.
-Hasn't posted in this game since Monday, January 12 but was posting elsewhere. Has since been replaced by Megaflareon.

@Megaflareon: Right now I see your predecessor as a lurker but I would like to hear your thoughts/opinions on D1/N1.

Status: Lurker/To be Determined by Replacement

Prom King

================================

Summary

-In his first post he voted Korts based on "his first reaction" to Rogue Shenanigans picking the path.
-In his second post he repeated his reason for voting Korts but still didn't tell us what that reaction was (later revealed to be Korts claiming scum in Random Stage)
-In his third post, he puts an OMGUS vote on BSG.
-In his fourth post he claims to know freeko is innocent implying a mason pairing (later corroborated by freeko)
-In his most recent post he asks if anyone got any valuable info during the night and assumes Occam was killed by Mafia.

My Thoughts

- PK has NOT said that he is town. He has only confirmed that they are masons. Furthermore, even if he did say he was town it is clear (based on freeko's comments) that they are unconfirmed of each others roles. I don't think we should assume PK to be confirmed town at this point. Remember freeko said this:

cannot directly quote my role pm, so I cannot really answer it better. He knows my alignment (town), but I do not know his it seems. The last line of my pm says something to that effect. That I am not sure of his alignment.

-In his fifth post he mentions that he thinks Occam was killed by Mafia, I have a different theory on this (see Occam's section).

Status: Lurker/Suspicious

Occam

================================
-There was a wagon on Lunar_Tick that he didn't agree with. OK that is fine, I agree there was not much to go on. But Occam spent an enormous amount of time claiming everyone (or most) on that wagon must be scum simply because he had a different view of it. So he votes my predecessor Kiro. That's fine too. He felt the wagon was scummy and that Kiro was the best place to put his vote. What bothers me is that Kiro posted exactly 3 posts, the last of which was post #81. He moved on from there to other things later but in post #169 he puts his vote back on Kiro, a player who clearly abandoned the game. It doesn't seem like a very smart place to put his vote as there was a lot more suspicious behavior going on than his reason for voting kiro (a poor excuse for hopping on a wagon).

I would like to think he is scum but the following leads me to believe he isn't:

I can actually confirm that the two (or one tonight, one the next night) are town. I don't think I should fully claim but I can if necessary.

I think Occam's role allows him to do something to confirm people but it might be a day investigation role? I don't think he is dead. He just "wandered off". I also think this was a breadcrumb:

And I don't want to look like a shepherd here but I do think at least a couple more people should join this wagon.

Maybe his role is shepperd? What actions would be associated with a shepperd? I don't want to be accused of rolefishing but I think since he is gone if he comes back he will have to explain it anyway so we can maybe get a jump on the conversation and try to figure it out?

Status: Unknown/Lost?

Sipylus

================================
I don't really have a read on Sipylus yet. He had a couple of posts that discussed the wagons-of-the-moment. He disagreed with the LT one, and agreed with the freeko and MM wagons. I tended to agree with his posts except for the LT wagon. I think the LT wagon was meant to pressure LT into being a little more helpful/alive, not necessarily to get him lynched.

Status: No Read Yet

BSG

================================
-In post #24 he presents a very weak argument to try to paint Occam as scum:

Precisely. It's printed right up there. And you missed it. The only way how you could have missed it is if you didn't read it. And that's scummy.
Besides, I find it very scummy that you posted without knowing the exact details.

-In his most recent vote he voted Prom King "based on his last post". Could you explain this vote a little better?

He really isn't giving much to go on here...

Status: No Read Yet

Lunar_Tick

================================
-Has added NOTHING to the game. I don't even think I can classify him as a lurker. I hate when people join games and don't participate. It makes the towns job so much more difficult.

Status: Non-existant

raider8169

================================
-I see a lot of filler-posts here and not very much scum-hunting. He has 26 total posts none longer than 3-4 sentences and most are one liners. I realize that is some people's style but I really would like to see more scum hunting. I suggest others read his posts in isolation and see if you agree.

Status: Slightly Suspicious

Korts

================================
I see two questionable things that Korts did over the course of D1. First in response to MonkeyMan's claim:

unvote

I think cleric is supposed to be doctor applied to the theme. But on second thought, I can't imagine sheep as clerics.

vote: MonkeyMan

This was all irrelevant because the L-1 vote was really the hammer but it just seems as if you unvoted and then when you noticed everyone else wasn't really following suit you reversed your tracks. If you really thought there was even a remote chance of him being a doctor, why revote?

And the second thing is deciding to watch while discussion was ongoing. I find it questionable but I am not necessarily sure I classify it as scummy yet.

Status: Questionable

freeko

================================
-In his first post (post #13) he votes Rogue Shenanigans for choosing the path. He lets this vote ride until making an admitted OMGUS vote on Occam 167 posts later. His next vote was part of the MonkeyMan wagon and is now voting Korts becuase somehow he thinks Korts death will tell him if he was lying about the watchman role.

1) Letting a random vote ride with little to nothing to go on for most of D1 is not very townie.
2) Replacing your random vote with a OMGUS vote late in D1 is not helpful and tells me you only have your interests in mind instead of the town. You were annoyed so you wanted to get rid of your annoyance.
3) Just for the record I don't think the MM wagon was scummy. He acted very scummy.
4) The only way to confirm if Korts is lying or not about the watchman role is to wait until someone else holds the role. He is ineligible tonight so it is guaranteed someone else will have more information on D3.
5) If you are town, play better! I want to give you the benefit of the doubt due to your claim of being an innocent mason but you are pinging my scumdar pretty hard.

Instead of rehashing your role-fishing/fence-sitting, I would rather just refer back to Rhinox's post #149 as I agree with it fully.

Finally, this post regarding the watchman really bothers me:

Now that I think about it, it might be better if I suggest prom king over myself as the person who does the night watch.

Um Really?...Prom King...the guy you cant confirm as innocent or scum? This is anti-town. I believe you should be suspicious of Prom King because you yourself said your role says you cannot confirm his alignment.

Status: Slightly Less Suspicious than Prom King...but only slightly

Rhinox

================================
I have to start Rhinox with a disclaimer. Rhinox is VERY good at this game. I was in the game where he was serial killer and totally thought he was town (I was the cop btw, but replaced out). People who can be so convincing at anti-town roles make me nervous.

The only thing I want to note for future study is that he seemed to lead the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim. I want to note it because it will be interesting to see in the long run if this was intented to make town doubt them or if it was good townie discussion. To be determined.

The post that started the discussion:

I shouldn't have to ask you to spell it out, but just to be sure...freeko, does your role state that you know PK is town? Same for PK... do you know for sure freeko is town? Without that certainty, the mason claim doesn't mean much.

Status: Makes me nervous

================================

In conclusion, I feel right now that Prom King has not been confirmed as town by freeko (and I am not really comfortable with freeko either at the moment). I feel he is the best place to put my vote for now.

Vote: Prom King

Mod: Please prod Lunar_Tick

Done.

P.S. I don't typically post books but I am starting a day late so wanted to make sure you guys got my thoughts thus far.

[Juls]

I'm also wondering... Why is it a problem if I was "leading the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim" (which I wasn't doing), if you are doubting their claims (i.e. you're voting PK and you say freeko is slightly less suspicious than PK.)? Why do you doubt their claim?

I am not sure of their claim...my comment about you was just to note it. It could be scum trying to confuse town or it could be a very good observation. I am leaning toward the latter at this point.

Also, Juls, I thought I remembered you saying a while back you were through with mafiascum... I'm glad to see you decided to stick around.

I took a couple months away. I am trying to just not be so sensitive this time around. :p Sucks being a girl sometimes.

[Juls]

Sipylus was replaced in another game I am in but it was in confirmation stages. Don't know if it was by request or not?

On a general note, I am not sure what the problem with this game is with the lack of conversation and all the replacing. I find it to be extremely interesting (props to our mod!) especially with Occam wondering off, it has really had my thoughts spinning.

[Juls]

For the first part, what are you talking about the L-1 vote being the hammer? As for the justification, I explained it quite clearly I thought. The claim of "cleric" seemed to fit only marginally with the theme, like a fakeclaim made up on the spot.

From the way I read, and I guess I could be reading wrong because I joined late and wasn't there as it transpired, but I was under the impression that the L-1 vote that you cast was actually the hammer vote unbeknownst to you or anyone else. When you removed your vote and then replaced it, it did not matter because he had long been dead. Is that correct?

[Juls]

Freeko are you just not reading or do you often have difficulties understanding what people mean? He is saying that HE is the only person that HE knows to be 100% town (because he knows his role). He is NOT saying that we know him to be 100% town.

[Juls]

If I recall in that post he said he can confirm PK on one night and freeko on another night. Read my theory under the Occam section of my big long post. I think that is where he has wandered off to and what he is doing during the day.

[Juls]

PK is scum, freeko is town. My feelings, Its possible, but unlikely. Here's why: PK voluntarily confirmed freeko. It wouldn't make sense for scum-PK to do that. Instead, PK could have hoped freeko was lynched, and shown up as mason. Then later in the game, if/when PK was found suspicious, he could have claimed to be freeko's mason partner, and there would have been no counter claim.

(This is a rushed post, I have to leave in 4 minutes for class)
I disagree with this a little. I think it would more advantageous for PK to claim while freeko is still alive so that freeko CAN confirm him. He probably didn't count on people questioning his alignment and that is why he claimed so early. I would have to go back and read but it was PK that claimed, not freeko. Plus, freeko has clearly stated that he doesn't know PK's alignment and PK seems to be avoiding the question. The way I look at it, PK is unconfirmed. Freeko is unconfirmed as well but I would tend to believe him more than PK because he brought up the alignment question. I say we treat them as unconfirmed. If they are the best to lynch they are the best to lynch. I would say a PK death that flips mason confirms freeko's alignment but I am not sure I would say the same the opposite way.

(Sorry if this makes no sense, if it is unclear I will clarify tonight when I get home)

[Juls]

Mod: We need replacements for Sipylus and Lunar_Tick (no activity D2), and Prom King either needs a replacement or heavy prodding.

Thanks!

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-3

Prom King - 4 (BSG, Juls, Rhinox, Korts)
Korts - 1 (freeko)

Not Voting - 5 (Megaflareon, Prom King, Lunar_Tick, Sipylus, Raider)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick. Prom King and Sipylus have been prodded.

[Juls]

For the sake of talking...I want to reiterate that I am very suspicious of Prom King and that I think Occam is not gone from the game yet due to the fact that his role was not revealed.

(Sorry I don't have much else to say, I really want to hear from PK or PK's replacement more than anything)

Happy Birthday Korts!

[Juls]

Mod: I don't know what method you use for choosing who will be replaced first but it will be most benefical to the game if Prom King is replaced first

[Juls]

I would be for that. At least then the mod only has to find two replacements and we would be able to confirm freeko. Plus, Occam may come back too which would give us even more information possibly (if my theory is correct).

[Juls]

You are one of two things:
1) scum-mason
2) town-mason

Either way,scum already know which you are. So killing PK only helps us (the town) trust you. It doesn't change the way scum thinks of you.

[Juls]

My vote on PK isn't to confirm you it is because I think he is scummy. My vote was on him before the stall occurred. It is up to you and raider to decide if you want to lynch him or not. Everyone else has abandoned. BSG, me, Rhinox, and Korts were all already voting for him. And I don't want to abandon this game. It has some interesting dynamics to it and I would hate for Jebus to have wasted it.

[Juls]

I have no problem with waiting for a replacement either.

Well, at least we had some activity in the game with the discussion.

[Juls]

Hi Vi! Good to play with you again.

[Juls]

Vi, are you saying you aren't a mason?

[Juls]

Hmmm...first off, thank you Vi for injecting some life into this game.

Now, knowing Vi, I don't think he/she (are you male or female btw?) would risk the gambit of scum claiming masons. But being that his/her predecessor may have done it Vi might be forced to roll with it. But then, I don't see why they would openly disagree about it during day for all to see.

Unvote

I am going to need to think about this. My initial read through I got some scummy vibes from freeko but I was inclined to believe his claim. I will do a re-read tonight with this new information and see if it fits.

[Juls]

Holy conversation batman!

My role PM explicitly states that I win when the bad guys are dead, which is obviously the Town win condition

My Role PM's flavor says I only wish to get to the next Town.
It does not say anything game-mechanic-wise (as in, Your Win Condition Is) about doing so.

Which is it?

I am a Neighbor.

Me = merchant
Vi = my companion

Which is it?

OMG I feel so guilty for doing this because I love Vi, but

FoS: Vi

You tell me yours and I will tell you mine. There will be no other terms or negotiation here.

This is so blatant and scummy I am taken aback by it. Plus your reactions to Rhinox are so venomous and defensive. I think PK forced you into a gambit you weren't comfortable with and now Vi has no choice but to go with it.

Vote: freeko

One thing that gets me is when someone has an argument I stay out of it until I decide which side I think it right.

Pretty much sounds like scum sitting back to choose the popular side. Noted.

----Sidenotes------

My avatar is now creepy.

QFT


@freeko - When you don't quote names in your quote boxes and you refer to people as "you" instead of by name, I get really confused at who you are talking to. Can you make an effort to be more clear. I noticed in my first read through but forgot to mention it.

[Juls]

Freeko, there is no need to be rude. No I did not skim. I read the posts when I got home from work and school. Unfortunately, I am not afforded the opportunity to hang out on my computer reading mafiascum all day. The point of my post was to point out the inconsistencies in what Vi has said and the scummy behavior that you exhibit. I do not apreciate your hostility. Your rudeness does nothing to convince me that you are anything but caught scum.

[Juls]

I dislike how Juls' analysis of everyone is "suspicious, be on guard". This isn't necessarily a scumtell, but it's not a good position to be in.

I said PK and freeko were most suspicious and that raider and Korts were kinda on my radar. I made a comment about Rhinox "making me nervous" but that was really more of a joke than anything based on his ability to fool me in the past. To be honest, that list hasn't changed much since I initially made that post. You seem to have 5 people on your list of suitable lynches (6 if you count Der Hammer ).

THIS is interesting. Did you seriously think until me and freeko claimed that all the Townies were sheep? Excoos me for being incredulous here. With no sample Townie PM to base your judgment on, this either means your role is Sheep and your role PM has no indication that anyone else in the caravan is human, OR you have no idea who's in the Town

because you're not one of them.

This I find interesting. The only mentions of sheep I can recall have been from Korts, the mod (he was a sheep) and Occam (he said something very early about sheeps walking on mountains and something about a sheppard later on). I wasn't crazy about his reasoning for revoting MonkeyMan. Now, MM was as crazy as a loon and I admit, had I been in the game at that point I would have TOTALLY voted MM, but I didn't see why he unvoted and revoted using that excuse. It's possible that Occam is a sheppard (GodFather) of Sheep (Goons?). But why would this not be called Sheep and the Travelers' Road (lol). I will do a re-read of Korts later (probably tomorrow night...two tests in the next 36 hours so I am kinda swamped studying).

[Juls]

You guys are going to make me fail my tests! (procrastination is scum!) So, I did a re-read of Korts. I didn't like some of his decisions early on and I can't ignore Vi's point about him possibly outting himself and being a bandwagon whore. I am still not convinced of the masons but I am willing to accept the

possibility

of it being true. With that said,

Unvote, Vote: Korts

(L-3)

[Juls]

I made two points about you in my long post at the beginning of the day.

1) Unvoting then revoting MonkeyMan when there was a potential he could be telling the truth. You based it on flavor which I found suspicious.

2) You chose to watch without any regard to what anyone else said about it.

Since that post Vi has made good points about you being on every bandwagon and also that you possibly spilled some information about "sheep". This makes me think that you are a wolf and you believe the townies are sheep for some reason. I can totally see a scums role PM saying something to that effect. When I re-read your posts I also saw the bandwagon hopping more clearly.

With all that said, I also made a mental note of Rhinox's brevity in voting you. Up until this point I saw him as being rather thorough with his posts and analysis on the people he has voted. It struck me as odd.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-7

Korts - 4 (Vi, Rhinox, Juls, freeko)
Rhinox - 1 (Korts)
Freeko - 1 (BSG)

Not Voting - 5 (Megaflareon, Lunar_Tick, Sipylus, Raider)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick, Sipylus, and Megaflareon, in that order.

Deadline is in 16 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.

[Juls]

This seems weak, like you'd much rather be beating the merchants around BUT ooo look shiny wagon! *follows the shiny thing*

This was meant to be a jab at me but I have to be honest, I LOL'd. I laughed because I always use this against my husband when he isn't paying attention to what I am saying or changes the conversation...I say "did you see a shiny penny or something?" LOL.

Sorry...mafia game...focus.

Well since the wagon appears to have deteriorated, I wanted to try to put a little pressure on Korts for his statements and see how he would react. I knew your

scumbuddy

merchant would hop on the wagon and an L-2 would be sufficient pressure for Korts to at least explain some of his actions. I did think you had a good catch and I wanted to see what his explanation would be.

And if you remember you said I only take the popular side in this case I am taking korts side.

That was me.

I'm going to

unvote

for now. I'm intrigued that raider is backing up Korts claim.

The events of the past two days have left me more confused now than ever. What is most troubling is this confusion started when Vi entered the game. I have only played as Vi's scumbuddy and confusion is obviously a scum tactic.

[Juls]

I have to catch up...will post my thoughts/answers to everything (or anything? haven't read yet) later tonight. I am going to go eat right now though.

[Juls]

This is the most hilariously bad thing I've read all game. (Prom King's posts were bad, but not hilarious.)

I am glad I could humor you. :p My point is that I felt relatively confident that PK was scum. You have said a few things that are still inconsistent but truckloads better than what PK was giving us, thus the confusion. Plus, you have thrown out somethings that I had missed/not thought about (e.g. Korts sheep

slip

comment). All valid points, I am just now confused as to what I should weight more heavily...PK or you.

Meanwhile, I think you're obvscum - partly for trying to push that on me after coming off a wagon I started, partly for Kiro's votes, and partly for what armlx noticed about me in Mafia 87 - you just happen to get the third vote on the wagon these days.

Point 1: Still not convinced of you and freeko so I have every reason to continue to pursue it.
Point 2: Kiro wasn't even here really. It looked to me like a half-ass vote followed by abandonment of the game. Pretty weak, imo.
Point 3: Not sure what he or you did....I skimmed at best. I read the last day or so because it got real interesting but for the most part I checked in to see if you were still in game. But I assume you mean something about being 3rd or 2nd on the wagon? I have suspected freeko, you/PK, and to a lesser extent Korts since I joined in. It's nice that you found some "evidence" to support this argument but its selective. It assumes I had not already voiced these suspicions before. Especially the one where I was second with BSG. BSG made a one-liner comment about PK when he voted...it was hardly a wagon-hop.

Well, you've called everyone who's active scummy, pretty much. (Juls, Me, Korts, Raider, and to lessar extents BSG and Freeko). Not quite sure what that means, other than being called scummy by Vi aparantly doesn't take much, nor mean much, ITT.

This.

I think I need to toss in

their

there that as long as no one counter claims sheep I am backing up his claim.

If no one else claims sheep then Korts is confirmed sheep.

I don't understand your response? How could there being no more sheep therefore make Korts sheep. Unless your role says there is only 1 sheep in the game this doesn't make sense. If it reveals too much about your role don't answer, but it seems weird...maybe I am just not understanding what you mean?

However, also notable is Juls' esplanation in post 444 (dibs on post 666 btw!); she admits to having baited freeko into wagoning, which I'm not sure is a good tactic with a claimed and confirmed neighbour.

You are twisting my words. I said that I knew freeko would follow Vi because ever since Vi joined the game he has followed pretty close to everything Vi has said. It reminds me of a school kid that is being bullied and his mommy comes in to save him and he is standing there boldy in her shadow saying "yeah..see! I told you!" So yeah, I knew he would do whatever Vi did.

At the least explain to us exactly what a sheep is. And why the hell you chose to be the watch at night KNOWING you are a sheep.

First this. If he is sheep, why would this knowledge make him know that watching was a bad idea? I don't agree with his decision to watch but to quote...you...FFS, your arguments make no sense to me sometimes.

So if this is the case as well with Raider, Juls and Korts (Is your role name mentioned in your PM or not), then there is a clash with the role PM you've got with those of ours.

Not sure how I got dragged into this one but yes I have a rolename.

@everyone: It occurs to me that we could all be just talking circles around each other and that the scum have abandoned the game. It's possible but not likely. I think its reasonable to think that 1 or 2 of the people who aren't currently active could be scum. Recall that Occam just "disappeared", it didn't say he was killed. It is possible that there was no nightkill sent in at all. And I do realize there are some other scenarios that would cause this to occur too but I am going to withhold my vote until we get at least 2 replacements who are participating. I don't want to be going down a wrong path just because we are the only people talking.

@mod: I really like your game, but it could really be hampering town to not have replacements. Is there not a single person interested in joining this game?

No, nobody is interested in joining this game, as far as I know. I've got it in my sig, and I've posted it a few times in the mini-theme queue.

==============
Everything below this line is not game related:

I'm so used to being older than everyone I've met thus far on the Internet that it still surprises me to hear about married couples.

I'm 29 (eek! 30 coming soon) and my husband is 35. We have been married 6 years in June and have a beautiful 2.5 year old daughter. TMI I know but don't even insinuate you want to hear about a girl's family unless you want it all! Hi honey if you are reading my games!

I'll be 25 when my big day comes in June

Congratulations! Don't name your first born Rhinox! (my first born is named after another character name I used before...Juliet will be my second child's name if we have a girl)

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-9

Korts - 1 (freeko)
Rhinox - 1 (Korts)
Freeko - 1 (BSG)
Juls - 1 (Vi)

Not Voting - 6 (Megaflareon, Lunar_Tick, Sipylus, Raider, Rhinox, Juls)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick, Sipylus, and Megaflareon, in that order.

Deadline is in 15 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.

[Juls]

She has little patience, and that doesn't go well with games like this.

I can relate...it's part of the reason I quit before. I get real frustrated with this game sometimes...what can I say, I guess I like the abuse :p

[Juls]

Probably something Juls said in 425

Maybe you should check your buddy freeko in 410. I probably won't say it again (ever) but what freeko said actually made sense!

[Juls]

@BSG: I guess based on what I think you are saying I have a flavor name.

[Juls]

I don't think now is the time to consider policy lynching inactives, unless we have reason to believe that every active player is town. Considering we've already mislynched once, and if Occam is dead, then a mislynch today could basically put us in LyLo tomorrow.

No, you misunderstand. I don't want to policy lynch. I don't want to lynch at all until we get some replacements in here. I would rather not lynch someone just because they are active. I want to lynch because they are the best lynch. Some of the replacements may be scum. It's kinda like my last game (that SpyreX modded) where we kinda ignored the lurkers and faught amongst all the bold personalities who were all town. We mislynched twice. (BTW, my uber negotiation skills pulled it out for town...the second to last day is a fun read..or it was at least to me).

Question @Rhinox, Juls, and raider: Who's suspicious - other than me or freeko?

I missed this in Vi's post. I have little nuggets of suspicions on several people and there are a couple of people that I haven't found anything to be suspicious at all. I would say my post 283 is still a fairly accurate indication of my suspicions more or less.

[Juls]

Hi Tony, welcome!

[Juls]

Freeko, this is like the third or fourth time you have requested role information. Do you realize that doing so is anti-town? Do you realize that scum can read this board too and thus get to see the role information as well? Why are you so determined to get others roles and how do you think doing so benefits town? And how do you think this information will help you find scum? I would appreciate if you could answer all these questions.

[Juls]

At least one of you is probably lying. Another one of you is lying and protecting your scumbuddy. Last one of you is scum, and I want to lynch you. I will leave it to you to figure it out all by yourseves. If you cannot then I will enlighten you.

I don't even know what this means? So, please, enlighten me. And also, I would like you to address my questions in my previous post.

[Juls]

Freeko, could you please tell me your age?

[Juls]

I missed this in Vi's post. I have little nuggets of suspicions on several people and there are a couple of people that I haven't found anything to be suspicious at all. I would say my post 283 is still a fairly accurate indication of my suspicions more or less.

So... everyone is scummy, at best neutral, or absent?

I fear this is an unfair characterization of what I said. In said post, I made it clear that it was my

scum read

on everyone (i.e. not my scum/town read). In a couple games I have been in (my newbie game and the one I was in with Rhinox) I have been told that it is not good to make a town/scum list because it tells mafia that if I am reading them as town to keep doing what they are doing. My goal with the post was to let everyone know what scummy things I saw in them. I had some town tells on people that I did not share in that list. So if I said "No Read" or something to that effect, it didn't necessarily mean "neutral" it meant I didn't see anything scummy on them yet.

Again, I have four people on that list that I felt were suspicious/scummy: Vi(PK), freeko, Korts, and raider.

Freeko, this is like the third or fourth time you have requested role information. Do you realize that doing so is anti-town? Do you realize that scum can read this board too and thus get to see the role information as well? Why are you so determined to get others roles and how do you think doing so benefits town? And how do you think this information will help you find scum? I would appreciate if you could answer all these questions.

Where are you going with this?

I am trying to determine what his motivation is for asking such questions repeatedly. I am annoyed and baffled by his play. I can't see how this information is good for town. Maybe if he explained it I would understand. But instead, he ignores my questions and answers like a child. I would love to OMGUS vote him but I am trying to be patient! I believe I stated earlier that I have little patience (in my post regarding Rhinox's fiance) so I am trying to give him every opportunity to straighten up.

[Juls]

1)Juls, do you know for sure either way if Occam is alive or dead?
2)Regardless of what you know for sure, if you thought Occam might be out confirming one of the masons today, why did you spend a lot of time trying to lynch one of them?

1) I don't know anything for sure. It is purely speculation. I am actually kinda excited because I want to see if I am right. Trust me, if I am, it would be the first time I was right about anything playing this game (mafia in general). If you watch the show Lost you might get what I am saying. I have had about 5,000 theories over the course of that show. So far, I am 0 for 5000. I don't have the greatest track record on these things.

2) I am not going to rely on my theory to change how I play the game. If we went through the day and gave Vi/freeko a pass and then Occam didn't come back then where would be? I know I have said otherwise while targetting freeko that they are a scum pair but my honest feelings is that one of them are scum and one of them are town. Freeko makes me want to go nuts OMGUSing him, but I am really trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I have withdrawn my vote for now on both of them. If you took the mason claim completely out of the picture, as if it never happened, I would be voting freeko.

This is a quick post at school and I just skimmed your post...if I missed anything else directed at me I will reread tonight at home.

[Juls]

Just wanted to check in and say I will catch up tomorrow night. I have homework due tomorrow that I have to finish.

[Juls]

Sorry for the extended away...I have been swamped with school work and home life. I am catching up now and will try to post later today.

[Juls]

Similarly, you telling me you've never been right about anything in mafia so far is making me doubt the accuracy of your cases and suspicions.

Well, I have two options here. I could quit playing cause I am really bad at the game...or, I could keep trying and hopefully learn from my mistakes and the other players in the games with me. The speculation on Occam was excitement for me cause I thought "oh...did I just pick up my first bread crumb?" Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Only time will tell. But I don't put faith in myself. (Being hard on myself is a bad personality trait!)

Even if 1 or both of Vi or freeko are scum, there is still at least 1 other scum to find. If there is a chance we can learn something about Vi or Freeko without having to resort to killing one of them, then its better to dedicate more time to finding the other scum.

And I have removed my vote. And I may be mistaken but it has been removed since my vote on Korts because I wanted to wait until other people were in the game.

I'm gonna start off with what caught my attention most, during my read through.

You are one of two things:
1) scum-mason
2) town-mason
Either way,scum already know which you are. So killing PK only helps us (the town) trust you. It doesn't change the way scum thinks of you.

I found it interesting, how those were the only options you would see. Did the possibility of just plain scum never cross your mind? I would imagine it wouldn't if you are scum yourself.

When I made this comment I felt that the mason claim was legitimate but they didn't know each others alignment and thus one is probably scum and one is probably town. I still believe this could be true but I am not sure which is which. (I know I said something to the contrary once to freeko about being "caught scum" but it was OMGUS cause he was annoying me).

Occam I got the impression was something of a sheepherder. It seems Occam was dropping hints to find the sheep but not the sheep.

This is also what I picked up on. I think he was a sheppard (although I still can't imagine what a sheppard would do as a role?). He even used the word "sheppard" at one point. If what you are saying is right, then maybe he was trying to rolefish to the other sheep to come out in thread and identify themselves quietly.

baaaaaaaahhhhhh

This whole debate over 2 sheeps, is Jebus a sheep or does he count toward the sheep count...My belief is that if what raider is saying is right then there would be two player sheep so its possible someone else is sheep other than Korts.

I had to chaperone a college valentines day semi-formal dance

Now this just makes me mad! I was willing to let your attitude pass with just a roll of the eyes if you were 12...but clearly you are much older than that. Your attitude really stinks for an adult freeko...grow up.

What a coincidence! All of them are being covered for by other people. 'Time to look elsewhere, ne?

I am willing to look elsewhere and am trying to process everything carefully...I just haven't seen anything yet.

Well, I have responded to everything directed at me I think...my laptop battery is about to die so I have to end my post. I really wish the replacements would participate more. This is getting a bit ridiculous

[Juls]

I am not in favor of a mass role claim yet either but I will say that I am fairly positive that I am not a sheep. Maybe we should get this confirmation/rejection from everyone? I have never been in a game where roles were revealed like this so if there are negatives to that suggestion, please let me know.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-14

Freeko - 3 (BSG, Raider, tubby)
Raider - 1 (freeko)
Juls - 1 (Vi)
Rhinox - 1 (Korts)

Not Voting - 4 (afatchic, Rhinox, Juls, TonyMontana)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is in 6 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.

[Juls]

Rhinox, I have one more test tomorrow and then my schedule dies down a little bit. I am going to do a reread of everyone and see if I am missing something or if there is something that can be garnered from it. I would like the replacements to participate more as I have already said. If I am to look elsewhere, I need to look at you, BSG, and the replacements. Since the replacements and BSG aren't participating at a decent level it makes it more difficult. (Although, I will give TonyMontana credit for making more posts than the others).

[Juls]

@mod:

can we at the very least get a warning to freeko for violation of rule 12? He has been so rude and confrontational for no apparent reason. I am pretty tired of his attitude and it is really ruining the game. I don't usually make requests like this but enough is enough.

[Juls]

Is that sarcasm Korts?

Seriously...I am not trying to kiss anyone's ass but I really enjoy playing in games with people like Rhinox and Vi. There is sarcasm, there is banter...it is fun. But there is a point where it crosses the line and I think freeko has not only crossed the line but done a full revolution and crossing it again.

Maybe I am more annoyed than most because I have this childishness going on in two of my games (actually BSG is in both those games so she can probably relate too). It's a huge turn off.

(I have enjoyed this game other than freeko's attitude just an FYI)

[Juls]

@Rhinox: Thank you for the pbpa post. I plan on doing something similar in the next day or so after I finish studying for this test (test is 2 hours away...eek!).

I have a quick question though...I think I missed what you guys were talking about with the massclaim (in the way someone misses an inside joke, not that I didn't see it). Are you guys saying that if there is a massclaim you want to just do a random dice roll (like say from 1 to 12) and the person assigned the rolled number claims?

I am becoming more and more in favor of a mass claim. I am kinda at a loss right now. I have decided to stay away from Vi/freeko and raider/Korts for today at least. I believe you to be town so the only other people are the people who aren't participating as much. Tony and tubby seem to be talking more now though. After I do my pbpa I will give a definitive yay or nay on the whole mass claim thing.

[Juls]

Just a note that I haven't forgot that I said I will reread...I have tried a couple times but I am just beat. I have had a really hectic schedule the past couple of weeks. However, I will definately get something up tomorrow night after I get home from work.

[Juls]

On reread, the lightbulbs went off and I think I understand why Kiro voted for Lunar_Tick in post 81. I am going to go ahead and full claim though because if I just place my vote on afatchic then it won't make any sense.


Here is my role (paraphrased): I am a gypsy, I have been down this road before. When a decision must be made about what path to take the mod tells me which path is most beneficial to town.


I was planning on claiming at the start of D2 but then there was no path to choose...so I was a little confused. I'm not sure if there was something that took place that caused us not to choose a path or not? But when I was rereading Kiro's vote on LT I realized that maybe the scum have an equivalent role on their side.

Hrm, I'm not liking Lunar_Tick's deal now. You're pretty insistent about the idea that the path choice at the beginning was not a big deal in post 62, then your whole demeanor does a weird shift in 66.

Lunar_Tick in his first post tries to act as if the decision is not important (probably setting himself up later to make the choice). Then, LT goes after MonkeyMan for saying that RogueShenanigans was scum for making the path choice. Again, if this set a prescedent that the path chooser would be lynched LT would want to nip it in the bud so to speak. Finally, he comes out and says "maybe the mod told me" when talking about the path. When I first read it I thought it was a bit strange but I brushed it off as a random guess. After that, the wagon formed on LT and he pretty much disappeared.

So my feeling is that afatchic (Lunar_Tick) is the scum equivalent of my role. I would like to have a claim from afatchic.

Vote: afatchic

And just an FYI, on D1 the path Kiro got from the mod was Path A.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-17

Freeko - 4 (BSG, Raider, tubby, TonyMontana)
tubby - 1 (freeko)
Juls - 1 (Vi)
Rhinox - 1 (Korts)
afatchic - 1 (Rhinox)

Not Voting - 2 (afatchic, Juls)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is in 6 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.

Note: Vote in this post not counted, it goes in the next page's votecount.

[Juls]

What doesn't make sense about it? Are you telling me you reread all day and that is all you got? That I speculated about Occam's role? I speculated AFTER he disappeared. I speculated because his role wasn't revealed.

[Juls]

i want to make one post with comments and in order of who i think is most scummy,,

^That's kinda what I was expecting

[Juls]

Well, this is the deal. I have decided to stay away from Vi, freeko, you, and Korts for today as we discussed. Of the remaining 5 I felt this was the best place to put my vote. Right now though, I am not feeling all that great about tubby after he promised an analysis and pretty much flaked.

I could be outguessing the mod...that's true.

@afatchic: Instead of claiming as I suggested before...can you explain why LT would make this comment:

The only way you could know if there was a scheme or if it was random choice is if you were scum, a townie would not know the difference.

Or maybe the mod told me.

[Juls]

btw note to the mod this is the most twisted game i have ever been apart of period

That's what makes it interesting!!!

[Juls]

Anyways, i haven't had as much free time as i had anticipated,

Um...you average 9 posts a day. We have a deadline in 6 days.

Why do you feel that you should not clear up any confusion that your predecessor may have left? Vi came in and did that. At the very least you could say I see no reason why my predecessor would have said that or I know the reason but I don't want to reveal. I retracted my claim request because that was a little too far. But not answering that simple question does not convince me to remove my vote from you.

[Juls]

Question: Isn't this directly consistent with what Occam was saying D1?
Do you have some kind of connection with Occam?

No, what Occam was speculating about was being the

person

to pick the path. My role just tells me the path, I don't have to be the one to pick it. So I assume on day 1 if RS had picked path A it still would have been the best path for town. And no, I have no connection to Occam.

[Juls]

Aside from being around and not posting in this game and voting for freeko...is there anything else on BSG? I read her the other day and I didn't feel like she was scum but maybe she has just lost interest in the game.

I sdon't like afatchic's reactions to the wagon on her (not answering the questions or even attempting to clear anything up...and being defensive).

Also, Tubby has yet to deliver on the promised analysis...still waiting.

[Juls]

1) This monitor and the words on it are swaying back and forth; it's kind of a neat effect. wooooOOOOOoooo~ *is sick, dazed, and confused*

Lay off the sauce!

Academic question - how bad could No Lynch be?

I wouldn't be opposed to it but we still have a few days to see what afatchic has to say in response to the questions posed to her and see if tubby is actually going to post his analysis.

[Juls]

OK I have never been in a game with a jester but it seems like afatchic is acting like one. Can someone who has more experience with Jesters tell me if you get the same feeling?

[Juls]

This is a mini theme. I imagine he can put whatever he wants in the game.

[Juls]

So do you want to be lynched? I mean you are practically begging for it. Is there a reason your lynch would be good for town? That is kinda the impression I am getting from post 750. Can you answer anything at all? You still haven't answered

if you know why

LT would say "Or maybe the mod told me. "

[Juls]

If what you are saying is true and you are unlynchable that gave you no right to be absolutely unhelpful. The problem with you claiming on Friday is that it gave us no time to discuss and possibly find another lynch target. What you were doing was forcing the decision to no-lynch on the whole town no matter if they agreed with it or not or force us to lynch you to confirm.

I hope that tomorrow you will be helpful...it is kinda bad form to replace into a game and do absolutely nothing.

[Juls]

you may want to reread again, but im fairly certain i said i would be caught up by tomorrow, then claim tomorrow.

753 says friday
761 says give you some time
777 says soon...you said soon when you replaced in too.
780 was the first time you said tomorrow. Then you made a flurry of posts while I was sleeping.

And no i didn't intend to be unhelpful but RL has been kinda tough and i haven't had like 6 hours to just sit in front of a computer screen. Sorry next time ill put RL on hold for you.

Of course real life comes first but you shouldn't have joined two more games after replacing into this one if you couldn't keep up with the ones that you were already in. It's a pretty lame excuse.

[Juls]

Why freeko? Before I thought Rhinox had shown interest in watching.

[Juls]

Well I am headed to work and likely won't get to post again until late tonight. If that is the case I will go ahead and put my two cents in. I would like for it to be Rhinox. He seemed to indicate he would be able to tell if Korts was lieing or not.

FYI, Korts can't do it again because he can't do it two nights in a row.

[Juls]

Got a minute between class...I would say my top 3 are me->rhinox->BSG.

[Juls]

Man that game was so fun! I'm glad we won.

Vi, great job at being pro-town. You totally blew my game wide open. I was blushing in embarassment a lot after you came in. I thought I was doing so good and wham! you suck Juls! (put much nicer by you of course). So tips are welcome...what can I do to improve?

I was convinced Rhinox was a SK because we tried to kill him night one and failed. Then he made the vig claim and I figured it was game over. I was kinda hoping Korts would reveal that we tried to kill him when he was on his death bed.

Good job Tony...you played it much better than I would have. I did not see Raider as the 3rd thief/mugger at all. I thought after tubby died it was Vi since she was a merchant's companion. I thought...what better person to be a cleptomaniac.

And kudos to you raider! I thought your fake role name was silly but I still didn't have you anywhere near my list for the mugger. Seriously...nosey teenager? I think some sort of spy name would have been better!

Rhinox, why did you kill me? I buddyed the hell out of you all game...lol. I was hoping that at my inevitable lynch (when you all realized the gypsy claim was crap) that you would be target number 2 cause I did everything you did.

So yay! I am super excited...that was the most fun I have had playing a game on this site. Great job Jebus!!! Consider me a pre-in for any of your future work!

[Juls]

Grow up freeko! And please, avoid me at all cost, I have no desire to play with you EVER again. I have never seen an adult act like such a 12 year old.


==========

I am pretty friggin proud of my claim. I thought it fit so well. I thought about that one for about two weeks before I actually made it. I was itching to make it too. And I saw that one comment from Lunar and I just dove in. It got everyone off my back temporarily at least. Vi had her vote on me FOREVER! And I knew tubby was about to vote me too so I went ahead and made it.

@tubby....what was the "thing" that you saw (when you said you saw what Vi saw) that made me scum?

[Juls]

I agree that he played decently at times but his attitude just stinks. And he is SO self-absorbed. News flash freeko: scum never wanted to kill you because you were so annoying you had a real good chance of getting lynched on your own even with a mason claim. Vi saved your ass...simple as that!