Mini 709 - Musical Mafia - (Game Over!)

[Trumpet of Doom]

Checking in. Don't expect much out of me until Sunday afternoon (CST) at earliest - I've got an All-Region Band concert tomorrow, and the way it works is that the rehearsals are Friday night and most of Saturday, and the concert is Saturday evening.

KoC: Cancer? Ooh, that sucks. I wish you well.

[Trumpet of Doom]

All right, I've finally compiled my list of how I feel about everyone.

Atlas:

...you know, I'd analyze him if there was really anything to analyze. What there is looks reasonably solid town up until he drops off the face of the planet. magisterrain's coming in on reasonably even footing.

corporate:

Newb, at any rate... looked for an excuse to vote Wall-E around pages 6 and 7, various bad cases on Atlas and Wall-E... I'm thinking likely scum. I feel sorry for his replacement, because he's left him/her/it a fairly big hole to dig out of.

Gamma:

4th vote on atlas on p1 raised my eyebrow. He self-votes with only two votes on him and then claims irresponsible vigilante (on page 2!), so I'm somewhat suspicious... then again, piccolo is a rather appropriate instrument for driving players out of the band. Rather uncooperative, though not to Wall-E's level. Still, he's definitely either vig or SK, in light of last night's happenings. I'd say we keep him around as long as we feel confident that he'll do what we tell him.

My Milked Eek:

Definitely seems town - even willing to argue with the two least cooperative players in the game (Wall-E and Gamma) in an attempt to get them to contribute. zachattack seemed to be doing a better job of getting Wall-E to contribute, but I don't suppose that helps us now. (Minor, not-even-sure-I-should-be-taking-the-time-to-talk-about-it nitpick: it's "woodwinds," not "windwoods." Says the guy whose RL instrument type is collectively referred to as "brassholes.")

Nekka-Lucifer/RestFermata:

IMO, NL's neutral, maybe leaning slightly scummy - not too terribly much in either direction, and I'm never quite sure what to make of bloodthirsty players. RF, however, I find fairly solidly town. I like her scumhunting.

Tolmides/Knight of Cydonia:

Tolmides didn't post much, but when he was around, he was a fairly good player. KoC... well, I can't complain, he's posted more than the other two of us that just replaced in.

Wall-E:

Loud, obnoxious and infuriatingly unhelpful, I got that much... but those (well, at least the first two) aren't really scumtells. In post 9, implies that he knows (on page 1!) beyond a shadow of a doubt that jersey is town. This sounds to me like an inadvertent scum claim or a cop in a cop headstart game, and it doesn't sound like this is a cop headstart. Happy about Gamma's vig claim, which I don't like because this may mean he's scum with what he thinks is a viable target; then many "everyone quit asking stupid questions that I've already answered" posts. Finally, post 506 is civil, calm, cool, collected, clear (let me see, how many C words can I throw in there?), showing that he can play nice if he wants to, and the rest of D1 looks reasonable to me. In short, I find him neutral, possibly leaning just the tiniest bit scum.

WhereIsTony:

Unwarranted assumption that scum have an RB - I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I'd guess that a roleblocker's not a terribly common role. If it is, my bad, but I can see this as scum letting slip information about the setup. I'm really not sure what to make of post 462: Yes, there are reasons to vote someone other than your #1 suspect (pressure, #2 suspect, think that they're an okay lynch even if they're not the greatest), but if you're going to claim "many" reasons, I think it's good to provide more than one. Overall: likely scum.

And now, the list, scummiest at top:
1: WhereIsTony
2: corporate
3: Wall-E
4: Gamma
T5: Atlas/magisterrain
T5: Tolmides/KoC
T7: NL/RF
T7: MME
9: Jordan/ToD

in the interest of spurring discussion

vote wall-e
If Wall E were town
nightkill corporate

If Walle were scum.
nightkill resta

Okay. Voting Wall-E I can understand. I can also see the "if he's town, NK corporate" idea. But if he's scum... NK RF? I don't like this at all. Please explain.

Vote Count:
Gamma - (1) Wall-E
Knight of Cydonia - (0)
magisterrain - (0)
My Milked Eek - (0)
Netlava - (0)
RestFermata - (0)
Trumpet of Doom - (0)
Wall-E - (1) WhereIsTony
WhereIsTony - (0)

With 9 alive, 5 votes will end the day.

[Trumpet of Doom]

What I said was, "jerseygoomba, why aren't you the mafia?"

Meaning, tell me why you aren't the mafia.

It was partially a joke, partially an attempt to generate discussion.

Ah. My bad. I read it as "I'm having trouble believing this, but I have been told by a reliable source that jersey's not mafia."

[Trumpet of Doom]

Because looking back, it seemed like nekka was scum. Later RF replaced in and while RF seems less scummy the role could not have changed.

I don't like this reasoning. How are we to know that Nekka couldn't just have been poor town, and that RF merely did a good job cleaning up the mess he left her?

Of course, I might be somewhat biased against this logic because I think it contributed to my lynch in newbie 709. (OTOH, there I actually

was

scum. I think that might have had something to do with it as well. Maybe. Possibly.) Hence my comment about feeling sorry for corporate's replacement.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Responding to massprod.

Certainly if we lynch town today, Gamma should not kill tonight. If we lynch scum, he has a bit more margin of error (worst case coming into D3: 2 scum, 4 town), but I do think he should only kill if he's reasonably certain someone's scum. And maybe not even then.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Well, since it had "mass prod" in the subject line, yeah, I think it went out to everyone. Maybe now we'll actually hear something from magisterrain. It's somewhat bad form to replace into a game and then not post in it for over a week after it's opened, am I right? And I'd really like to hear anything from him.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Gamma is my top pick for scum - Vote: Gamma

In addition, he's pretty anti-town.

A bit of a redundant tautology there, don't you think?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're nowhere near done with your reread - finding the second post you quoted, it looks like you're at about page 5 or 6, maybe a little beyond. Is that correct?

And I highly suspect that when you finish, your vote will not be on Gamma... just sayin'.

[Trumpet of Doom]

It's not redundant. Gamma is scummy in addition to being anti-town.

What's the difference?

And I highly suspect that when you finish, your vote will not be on Gamma... just sayin'.

???

Page 24. I'll let you look on your own for what's there.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Scummy is things like scumtells. Anti-town is things like a vanilla townie using OMGUS.

They can be the same thing, but not always.

Gotcha. But there is a rather large amount of overlap between the two, and it sounds like Netlava's counting some actions in both categories.

I think Gamma is a likely SK.

In light of what happened on page 24 (short version in case you missed it: Gamma says he'll vig Budja, then at daybreak, Budja has quit the band), I see three possibilities:

1) Gamma is not a killing role, but there is another (non-mafia) killing role who wants to eliminate the mafia and feels so secure in Gamma's judgment of who is scum and who isn't that he's willing to kill whomever Gamma claims he'll kill. (Unlikely to the point that it doesn't even deserve serious consideration.)
B) Gamma is an SK who for some reason feels it in his best interest both to work with the town AND to claim his kills during twilight so that they won't be doc-protected. (Improbable at best, but still better than choice 1.)
III) Gamma is a vig who is claiming his kill during twilight so that they won't be doc-protected. (By far the most likely.)

Netlava, I was hoping you'd be a better player than corporate, but you haven't (or at least, it hasn't been noticeable). I second Eek's request for which of Gamma's posts are so suspicious (and please, from throughout the thread), and I could support a lynch of either you or Tony right now - I'm not really sure which of you is worse at the moment.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Speaking of getting prods on non-active players,

Mod: please prod magisterrain.

He hasn't posted at all in this thread, but he's been active onsite.

Done.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Bump.

Don't try to read into my posts so much, I'm about as subtle as a sombrero.

Aww, but overinterpreting posts is half of what makes this game fun! Especially in cases like this, where people write posts that are very easy to misinterpret. (Wall-E is the one that springs to mind, but I'm sure I could find someone else if I bothered to look.)

Let's see if I can't revive this thread somehow... I've already stated that (and why) I could vote for either Tony or

corporate

Netlava. Given that Netlava is closer to lynch currently, I think it's probably going to make this game go faster if I

vote: Netlava

for L-2.

[Trumpet of Doom]

What is the case on corporate/Netlava?

Ignoring the irony of you asking...

PBPA: (numbers are to individual's posts in isolation)

corporate:

0: random vote - negligible, although in light of magisterrain's lurking, this may hint at something. I'll let you figure out what.
1: Switches random vote for a reason that he later claims is a joke, but it is not at all obvious at the time that it's just a joke.
2: Calls Nekka out on voting someone who'd done something even scummier than his own vote (put Atlas at L-3 instead of L-4).
3: Says he figured L-3 isn't dangerous; I'd argue that at this phase of the game, since L-3 is 57% of the lynch requirement, if 3 other players just decided to "randomly" vote Atlas, hey, he's been speedlynched!
4: ...hmm. Says his vote on Budja was just a joke, but also says that he pulled a random vote when he thought the game had left the random stage. On first glance, this vote would appear to be his vote on Atlas; looking in the context of the thread, I can see how he might have meant Budja. Then questions a vote with more motive than his had.
5: Attempts to defend himself by saying "we all know how flip floppy D1 votes can be." I'm sorry, I really don't like his defense. Atlas is hitting him hard, and he's having trouble coming up with reasoned defenses, is what this looks like to me.
6: Complains that Atlas is nit-picking and refuses to acknowledge that it's an invalid way of scumhunting. Again, it could be cracking under pressure.
7: Recommends we keep Gamma alive, misinterprets Wall-E's statement that he's testing the lynching waters, and dismisses Atlas's post #44 (which itself had good points for corporate being scum) as not worth paying attention to. Was he not going to defend himself? It sure seems that way.
8: Claims that he can, indeed, ignore post 44. And that Atlas "backed off" his argument with corporate. (Well, Atlas won.)
9, 10, 11: Tries to make a preemptive case on Wall-E for giving himself an excuse to lurk. I'm sorry, what?
12: Joins in RB speculation and congratulates Tony for thinking of it.
13: Suggests Atlas's confirm vote on him (for ignoring his question on where he backed down) is OMGUS.
14: The thread explosion he points out invalidates any lurking points he may have. Especially against Wall-E, who seems more active during the explosion than before it, and Atlas (through this point) has still been making multiple posts per day.
15: His "excuse to back out" defense, which he tries to use here, is looking more and more shaky each time he uses it.
16: Alleges that Atlas's posting eased up. (Over 24 hours. I rarely make more than one post per game per RL day anyway.) Atlas calls him on it in #184.
17: Suggests (again) that Atlas and Wall-E are scumbuddies conspiring to get him lynched.
18: Says he's not sure Tony is town. Except... wait a minute... let's look at post 12 again.
19: Claims he stated a case on... Wall-E, I guess, although Eek seems to think Atlas. Either way, I don't see it.
20: The entire post is as follows: "checking in thanksgiving is keeping me busy ill catch up when i can but i have a pretty full schedule this weekend." Well, the timing is somewhat appropriate, anyway.
21: Misinterprets Budja's post "I'll go with whichever wagon

on two specific people

(including corporate) town supports more" into "whichever wagon ends up lynching".
22: Apology for lurking - Thanksgiving weekend. Passable.
23: Confirm votes Wall-E, but doesn't elaborate on why. ("For all the obvious reasons"? Really? Let's pretend I'm being slow. What are they?) And suggests that Gamma killing N1 is a bad idea. We now know that the kill he made didn't work out so well for us, but we weren't going to find ourselves suddenly in LyLo today, either, so I wouldn't have minded.
24: Attempts to use laziness as an excuse for not explaining his votes and insults Wall-E. Not that Wall-E hadn't been doing more than his share of insulting, mind, but two wrongs don't make a right.
25: Restates his suspicions (without reasoning, if anyone cares), wonders where Atlas is. Reasonable question; the answer appears to be that he left the site.
26: Tries to use meta as a defense.
27: Makes a halfhearted attempt to explain why he finds Atlas scummy.
28: Congratulates Gamma for complaining about MME's nitpicking; remember, corporate's 6th post complained at Atlas for doing the exact same thing. At least he's consistent.
29: Snaps at Wall-E for ignoring Jordan's case against him.
30: Suggests Atlas may need to be replaced; forgets the reasons at the beginning of the game for which he thought Atlas was scum.
31: Apology for missing the weekend.
32: "Nope, nothing's happened that would make me change my vote."
33: Requests that people be prodded. Gets told that people are probably just waiting on Atlas's replacement.
34: Points out that yes, he did say why he'd thought Atlas was scummy.
35: Again, supports a no-kill. I think this is likely a null-tell.
36: Slams Tony (a) based on a misinterpretation and (b) for roleblocker speculation... which, wait, he supported earlier on. I could very easily believe that this is bussing, especially since they're my top two suspects.
37: Backtracks from his previous post, but leaves the part where he slams Tony's RB speculation.
38: Suggests that if Tony thinks Wall-E is scum, he should be voting to put Wall-E at L-1. FoSes Tony, but not without a bit of prompting. Make of that what you will.
39: Suggests Tony has changed his mind about who he thinks is scummiest... except he really hasn't.
40: Wonders how a suspect list (in this case, Tony's) is useful to anyone other than scum. I'd say it helps town by letting everyone know who you'd be willing to switch your vote to.
41: He then gets wrong how scum could use it to their advantage: If there's a player that everybody thinks is town, scum would likely want to kill that player. (Which then gives the doc a lead on whom to protect, which starts a logic chain that's going to give me a headache if I think about it too much.) He merely suggests that if the list's poster doesn't die, scum knows where they stand in the eyes of the dead player.
42: Says that Tony's unvoting Wall-E (who was at L-1) to wait for replacements is "wishy-washy". Really? I can understand why Tony would have been cautious and unvoted.
43: Decides Tony's not confident in his Wall-E vote/unvote.
44, 45: Declares that Wall-E's either scum or playing horribly.
46: Requests a deadline, then promptly avoids posting for two-and-a-half weeks. In fairness, it was over the holidays.
47-49: Contentless, just "need to catch up" posts.

corporate requested replacement over N1; Netlava replaced in.

Netlava:

0-2: "I'm busy, I'll post eventually."
3: Claims to have read the thread, but doesn't have any points past page 6. Votes the guy who is essentially confirmed to be either vig or SK.
4: Has no idea why Gamma shouldn't be lynched... perhaps I was too subtle.
5: Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling he's looking for an excuse to vote Gamma.

Does that clear things up, Wall-E?

I was not saying we should lynch him. Just trying to encourage his replacement to step up, and explain/off theroies

Minor problem here: A lot of what Netlava would need to explain came from corporate. As such, only corporate would be able to fully explain why he did what he did.

[Trumpet of Doom]

I probably should have mentioned that I didn't intend for everything I put in that post to be used against corporate/Netlava. I just went through, wrote something for every post, and figured people could pick out the scummy actions on their own. Which you did.

Having said that:

21: Misinterprets Budja's post "I'll go with whichever wagon on two specific people (including corporate) town supports more" into "whichever wagon ends up lynching".

This might be your misinterpretation

True, Wall-E and corporate are my top 2 nightkill choices. I will go with the majority on one of those two.

^^why go with the wagon. you dont care who dies?

Yeah, I might be misinterpreting it, but it's not easy to determine. Especially since the one player who would be able to tell us has left the game.

...and in case anyone cares, I believe your vote was L-1.

[Trumpet of Doom]

...Why should I be dead?

Oh, Gamma tried to kill me and got blocked somehow?

Well that answers that question. But in that case, why the hell did you try to kill me? What did I do that made you want me to be dead?

[Trumpet of Doom]

Having now taken a couple of hours to sit down and think through the situation, I can think of three (3) reasons why I'm not dead even though Gamma claims to have tried to NK me. These would be that we have:

Two docs (virtually impossible in a 12-player game where we have not been led to expect such a thing)

OR

A town RB who (correctly) distrusted Gamma's scum-finding abilities (relatively improbable, IMO)

OR

A mafia RB who lent perhaps a bit more credence to Gamma's skills than is really deserved (most likely, especially since somebody *cough*WhereIsTony*cough* was speculating about it D1)

There are, naturally, the options that Gamma either submitted somebody else as his kill choice or didn't send one in at all, but I find these difficult to believe - Gamma doesn't seem like the type to miss a night choice, he has (we think) no reason to lie, and if he tried to kill someone else, we still have the same question of "why aren't they dead?"

I haven't seen anything to cut down on Tony's scumminess or cause anyone else to leapfrog past him, so I think I'll join RF and

vote: WhereIsTony.

And since you've all driven me to L-1, I suppose this is as good a time as any for me to claim...

I am a

Bari Sax

player. My PM seems to hint I'm a miller, but it doesn't outright tell me so.

I have always believed and still do that the scum are likely to have a blocker.

It is the most commmon scum role.

especially in games with Vig.

Vote ToD

reasons

1. Wall'E claims to have reasons
2. Gamma who is at the very least unlikely to be scum wants him dead
3. RF who i have long suspected (since the nekka days defends him)

Strictly speaking, the most common scum role is goon, and I'd guess that after that, next most common is godfather. And your reasons for voting me are... suspect. Sure, you're willing to blindly follow Wall-E - oh, wait a minute - and you seem to be forgetting Gamma's previously demonstrated brilliance at finding scum to vig. [sarcasm] You're making yourself look better and better, Tony. [/sarcasm] Oh, and there's more: You say you've suspected RF "since the Nekka days," but check this out: Here, you have her listed not first, not second, not third, but... *counts on fingers*

eighth?

How is that being suspicious of her? You're not helping your case much, Tony. (And thank you, RF, for pointing out what Tony has

not

listed as any of his reasons for voting me.)

[Trumpet of Doom]

Vote Count:
Gamma - (0)
Knight of Cydonia - (0)
magisterrain - (0)
My Milked Eek - (0)
RestFermata - (0)
Trumpet of Doom - (3) Gamma, Knight of Cydonia, WhereIsTony
Wall-E - (0)
WhereIsTony - (2) Rest Fermata, Trumpet of Doom

With 8 alive, 5 votes will end the day.

Look, everyone, if you think I'm scum, make a detailed post explaining what I've done that makes you think I'm scum. I can't defend against a case I haven't seen. (Gamma and Wall-E in particular, but the rest of you as well.)

Because ToD is scum

Am I really? Or are you just avoiding the question? If you have un-blockable cop powers in addition to (apparently blockable) killing powers, just say it.

I wouldn't discount the possibility of a miller, but every other game I've played here with a miller, that miller has claimed D1 to avoid problems like this.

Some time back, I felt like I had too much time on my hands and was reading through the Best Game Scummie nominations. I came across this from D2 of Mini 501.

I have also never seen a "implied miller"

See above.

I can understand it being a miller, especially if the "cop" role is flavored to something like "PM me the name of a player and I will tell you what material his/her instrument is made of".

Oh, and it just gets better from there. Even if the cop looks at what parts I play, I know I've played pep-band music (and I'd be willing to bet I've played concert pieces) where the arranger doesn't even bother to write out a bari sax part, instead just lumping it in with the trombones, or the euphoniums/baritones, or even the tubas. I find it not terribly unreasonable that I would have some low-brass parts to play.

A saxophone is clearly brass.

I'm not sure how much to count this as "you're scum trying to paint me in a negative light" and how much as "you just don't know what you're talking about." Your latest posts seem to indicate just that you did not, in fact, know what you were talking about. Either way, you just jumped a notch or two on my scumlist. Not enough to pass up Tony, though.

I have reasons.

Oh really?
A = B. come on, spill your beans, or so I've heard them say on the tube.

Not telling without a good reason.

You're not helping. But it occurs to me in trying to think of possible explanations for Wall-E's behavior that he may be trying to say he's a cop with a guilty result on me without actually saying that he's a cop with a guilty result on me. Does anyone else think this makes the slightest bit of sense, or am I just being paranoid?

Besides, Tony's comment that he doesn't see where he's changed his tune inspired me to take another look at his posts. Tony, you go from this - so confident there's a mafia RB that you don't even bother to say "if" - to this, which I'm seeing as "Oh, was I not supposed to say that?" and then to this post of "now that I can't take things back, I can at least try to pretend that I don't know there's an RB." Granted, I could be misreading any or all of these - it wouldn't be the first time this game, and it probably wouldn't be the last - but your backing off on your confidence that there was/is a mafia roleblocker is (I think) what RF is talking about.

Interestingly, your random vote was for corporatescum. Corporate's was for Atlas (who vanished, and his replacement kept up the not posting), and Atlas's was for... oh hey... you. What's that I hear about scum "random" voting their scumbuddies?

[Trumpet of Doom]

Gamma:

Trumpet, you were one of the people leaning against last night's vig attempt, or at least had cold feet to it.

Is that all your reasoning to suspect me over everyone else? Let's take a look at that particular section of yesterday.

Post 636: The idea of whether or not to NK last night is first brought up by MME, who is against it.
637: Wall-E advocates somewhat more recklessness. (Exact quote: "Gamma should do whatever he wants to do.")
638: RF agrees with MME that there should be no vigging N2.
643: I mention that hey, if we get scum lynched, Gamma has a bit more leeway. But having seen his skill earlier at picking scum, I suggest that it may be a good idea for him to show a bit of restraint.
647: Gamma says that no NK is "a terrible idea. Yet." He then goes on to say that he might not NK if we lynch town.
648: KoC says he thinks Gamma "should just do what he wants from now on. It's going to be too easy for the scum amongst us to steer his kills towards townies." I'd say that to some degree, this is true, but only if it's towards townies who look scummy already.
649: MME suggests that a town lynch => no NK, and that a scum lynch => NK.

And it's never spoken of again.

People who opposed the NK to some degree or another: MME, RF, ToD.
People who supported Gamma unleashed: Gamma (naturally), Wall-E, KoC.
Tony posted, but didn't offer an opinion one way or the other.

Both

of the other players to be anti-NK were players that you've suspected more than me. So if that's your only case on me, please come up with something better or move your vote to someone else. And if it's not, tell me why else you suspect me.

RF, I think KoC was referring to Gamma instead of to me.

Tony:

also are godfathers usually unkillable?

I thought godfathers simply did not turn up guilty...kind of the opposite of a miller

From the wiki - Godfather:

The Godfather heads the family, and is in charge of sending night kill choices to the Game Moderator. Also, the Godfather usually appears innocent to Cops.

In games with multiple families or other roles that can kill at night (such as the Vigilante), the Godfather may also be immune to being killed at night.

And while I'm at it, I looked up this "chainsaw defense" that you accused me of a while back... it seems to require that the cop announce his guilty

first.

So I'm not quite sure how it applies here.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Nope. What do I have to do to convince you all that I'm not scum? And I'm not un-NKable, either. Although I'd rather not have to prove it in any way.

Looks like the most likely explanation is:

Gamma attempts to shoot ToD, which fails because ToD is unkillable. Mafia attempts to kill Gamma, which fails because of Wall-E's doc protection. In this case, ToD is lying about his role and is likely mafia.

Wow, that's pretty damning. But Wall-E, why did you unvote, then, if nothing about that changed?

I want to hear from ToD before the hammer, if only to see him squirm

ToD, you have some explaining to do why I was roleblocked if you want to live.

Ask the guy who wouldn't know... All right, I'll take y'all up on those.

RF, you said earlier today you thought there was a mafia RB. Why would he/she/it not block Gamma? I mean, to some degree, the brass must have figured he would hit them eventually, and so his power needed to be neutralized. But they couldn't get rid of him, either. If they actually tried to NK Gamma, the only claimed town PR, they were (not to put too fine a point on it) idiots, because they should have known there was going to be a doc-protect on him. So scum wouldn't (well, shouldn't) have tried to kill Gamma. Which would lead to Wall-E's lying about having protected Gamma. Which would mean he should be lynched on LAL.

And if Wall-E's telling the truth... what kind of drugs were the scum on?

what i mean is that you could have been also not willing to go along because you may/may not have been killed

And so could they. In fact, given your past attitudes towards them, they had more reason to worry. Good God, man, give a case on me that can't be applied to other people.

...oh, right, those are the two that have claimed clarinet already. But even so, who's to say that I simply didn't trust you? [sarcasm] After all, the Budja vig went over well, didn't it? [/sarcasm]

[Trumpet of Doom]

WARNING: Long, long post ahead.

If you can do a case without being snitty, I'll get back to you. My feelings are hurt.

You're right, I can see that I was a bit snappish there. All right, let's think about this calmly.

*breathe in... breathe out...*
*breathe in... breathe out...*
There we go.

Why you shouldn't have tried to kill me:

Your only stated reason for trying to kill me last night is that D2, I opposed a vigkill for that night, and you feel that I may have opposed the kill because I might be hit by it. There were two other players who expressed dislike of a vigkill N2 - RestFermata and My Milked Eek - so I questioned why you'd picked me to kill. Especially since at various points in the game, you'd thought them both scummier than you'd thought me or my predecessor up to that point.

However, both are claimed vanilla town. More specifically, both are claimed clarinet players. Their claims seem reasonably sincere to me - RF's (post 103) because it was the first clarinet claim and came from her predecessor (more on that in a moment), and MME's (post 323) because it was made to back up Nekka-Lucifer, whom RF replaced. I can see RF coming up with clarinet as a fakeclaim for vanilla, but I wouldn't guess Nekka would be able to figure that out on his own. For that matter, I wouldn't suspect MME of correctly guessing clarinet either. So the most likely scenario with RF and/or MME as scum involves pregame chatter where the other scum instruct(s) them on what would likely be good fakeclaims. Since I also don't see corporate as someone who would be aware that clarinet is the most common instrument in a standard concert band, RF and MME can't both be scum (because NL + MME + corporate = 3 people, which I think fills our mafia quota).

So at most one of

NL

RF and MME can be brass. If RF is brass, this means that the third scum must have been one of the people who were around at the beginning of the game and knows enough about band to know that clarinet would be the most likely vanilla role. I haven't gotten that impression from any of the original players, so I think RF really is a clarinet. MME is a bit hazier. If he's town, he's probably also a clarinet player, if for no other reason than he would have claimed whatever else he was if he's a different woodwind. If he's scum, by the time he claims, nobody's argued against clarinet being town, so he knows it's not wrong, and a check of Wikipedia would reveal that it's the most common instrument in a concert band, so he may have some idea that it's probably vanilla. However, D1, he also was willing to argue with you and Wall-E to make you two contribute, which I don't think is something scum would do.

Basically, MME is likelier to be scum than RF, but in about the same way that yellow is darker than white. They're both likely town, and probably vanilla.

Now, from here, we can go either of two ways: One, we can say, "Trumpet must have figured that of those three, he was most likely to be killed, so he didn't want a vig kill because it might hit him." This seems a bit off to me, because the people that agreed with an unrestricted NK would be agreeing

even though

they might have been NK'd. And it's rather weak reasoning for a vig N2. Or two, we can say, "Trumpet thought like two near-confirmed townspeople thought. He's reasonably likely to be town." I don't think it's at all hard to figure out which one I want you to believe.

Why you were roleblocked:

Why not? N1, you announced your kill beforehand. Since your proposed target was town, scum let you help do their job for them. N2, you didn't announce it, so scum wouldn't have known if you were going to hit them or not. They didn't have any good alternative targets or any good reason not to roleblock you (yes, those two are similar, I know), so they blocked you.

Can you speculate for the town who the scum DID target if they roleblocked Gamma?

I can try. Most likely to least:
T1: RF, MME (claimed vanilla)
T3: Wall-E, Tony, ToD, KoC
7: magisterrain (hasn't done anything one way or the other, and probably not expected to contribute much to scumhunting)
8: Gamma

Which would lead to Wall-E's lying about having protected Gamma. Which would mean he should be lynched on LAL.

wat

If you wanted to disprove this theory you should have given an example that explained the night actions. The lack of a mafia NK OR a vig NK indicate that either a pro-town power role blocked Gamma-scum and I stupidly protected the mafia (in which case I'd feel really bad about claiming) or the more simple answer is that YOU are the scum.

Let's try this again.

Smart scum would not have attempted to kill Gamma, we're agreed. Thus: Either you're telling the truth and the scum are idiots (in which case town's likely to win anyway), or you're telling the truth and there's another doc who protected whomever scum tried to kill (but why would we have two docs?), or you're telling the truth about being doc, but lying about whom you protected (LAL), or you're lying about being the doc (LAL).

You want an example? Very well, then. Let's say scum try to kill MME. The doc protects MME. Gamma tries to kill me. Scum block Gamma. How's that sound?

And I didn't quote that much of RF's post entirely on purpose. When I logged on yesterday, I saw her vote for me, failed at counting, and thought her vote was the hammer. I spent a while making a "bah" post, then had to leave for a concert, got back, noticed there wasn't a lynch scene, went back, counted... surprise, I'm not lynched yet. The part I really wanted to quote was that last part of a sentence, and I just forgot to delete the rest.

Possibilities: 1) ToD is un-vigable scum. I protected Gamma who tried to kill ToD, therefore nobody died.

Absolutely wrong. I'm not un-vig-able, and I'm not scum.

2) ToD is innocent. Gamma and I are scum. We chose not to NK to make this whole illusion seem more real, and that's why nobody died. Bear in mind this means the real vig and doc would likely wait for a wagon on either of us to toss on their votes.

If this is true, they've been waiting for quite a while to counterclaim Gamma.

3) ToD is innocent. Gamma is a liar. I'm innocent. Gamma chose not to NK to make this whole illusion seem more real, and that's why nobody died. Bear in mind this means the real vig would blah blah blah.

I don't doubt that Gamma's a killing role, be it vig or SK. The only way I can see him not being one is if Atlas/magisterrain is instead, which would explain why there was a kill N1 (magisterrain may have been planning to actually participate and simply got sidetracked before D2 actually started), but not N2 (as he seems to have forgotten this game exists). But I feel like I'm stretching a bit for that.

4) ToD is innocent. Gamma is innocent. I'm the liar. Doc counter-claim hasn't happened, therefore the real doc is waiting for a wagon on me to add his vote, blah blah blah.

Of your four possibilities, this is the most believable - but then, who's doc? Can't be magisterrain, so if it's not you, it's either Tony or MME, neither of whom has posted since your claim, and I've already explained why I don't think either of them are doc (Tony because I think he's scum, MME because I think he's vanilla town). So I have problems with this, too.

How about: 5) ToD is innocent. Gamma is innocent. Wall-E is innocent. One scum's an idiot, and the other's AWOL.

[Trumpet of Doom]

In that example, they targeted Gamma. I thought that was implied (in that "one scum's an idiot" comment), but apparently it wasn't.

Therefore, most likely night choice scenario (ignoring why it shouldn't happen):
Gamma tries to kill me
Scum RB Gamma
Scum target Gamma
Wall-E protects Gamma

Sound reasonable?

[Trumpet of Doom]

Let's assume, for the sake of this argument, that I'm not NK-immune.

From here, there are only two possible reasons why I might not have been killed last night, and one doesn't work because the doctor appears to have been occupied elsewhere. Therefore, scum blocked Gamma.

So then who did scum try to kill? Well, either they tried to kill Gamma (which would have been their worst possible play, and in which case... you're right, "idiots" is probably too strong a word. Maybe "didn't think their kill all the way through?") or they went for anyone but Gamma, and the doc protected that person instead of Gamma (and for once, I'm just going to shut up and let y'all think through the implications on your own).

Naturally, all this depends on your accepting that I'm really not NK-immune. If you really want to think I am, I can't do anything else about it. I guess that old saying about leading a horse (or a zebra) to water is true. And since my attempt at starting an alternate wagon failed, I'm pretty much out of options at this point besides crossing my fingers and hoping y'all decide to start believing me.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Well, there's the hammer. I suppose I'm lynched now, so I'll just say a few things and go.

It's funny... I wasn't actually told Gamma was our kill last night. My scumbuddy must have totally bypassed me - I think I even said trying to kill Gamma was a waste of time.

Wall-E, have fun tonight, since I'll be impressed if you survive till tomorrow.

RF, if you can come up with a better fakeclaim than bari sax, I wanna hear it.

Tony, you already know what I'm going to tell you, I don't need to say it.

KoC, I wish you well.

Gamma... okay, everyone else watch this man. Going into N2, I think he was the only one who thought I was scum and who would have tried to vig me. I find his skills lacking.

Short version: Bah, screw you all (except MME), and I can't wait for the post-game discussion.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Thanks. This must have been one of those times when poor play by a town PR ended up being good for town.

And I suppose at this point I might as well claim the

real

instrument RBT assigned me (French Horn).

[Trumpet of Doom]

And, on an unrelated topic, happy Valentine's Day, everyone!

[Trumpet of Doom]

Sorry about that N2, Tony. I wanted to try a tactic I'd alluded to in my other completed game - namely, that of bussing my scumbuddies from the moment I replaced in.

Tony'd asked me what I thought I was doing with the "screw you guys, I'll go it solo" mentality, and I never got around to answering him. I sort of wonder how I'd do as an SK, to be honest. Then later on N2, RBT PM'd me and told me that he had our kill, but not my block. I didn't have any better choices to block, so I figured, "Ah, what the hell." and submitted Gamma as my block, figuring that Tony had submitted RF as the N2 kill. When there was no kill at all that night, I figured the doc had protected RF. So my thought process when I read Wall-E's claim went somewhat as follows:

First: "... tell me you're kidding."
Second: "... wait, no, he has no reason to lie about who he protected if he really is the doc..."
Third: "... G^&D@%#IT, TONY!"

When RF put me at L-1, I miscounted and thought it was the hammer, so I was working on this huge, vitriolic "bah" post... then saw (eventually) that I actually wasn't lynched yet and adapted it. When I finally was lynched, I thought, "Well, let's see how many townies I can throw some degree of suspicion on on my way out the door," and figured that if I made it quite obvious that I wasn't saying anything that would implicate MME, that would do it.

As to what I was going to say to Tony: Part of it rhymed with "what the duck," part of it was "sorry I set this near-insurmountable wall in front of you," and part of it was "please, for the love of God, kill the claimed doc tonight." Which he did.

[Trumpet of Doom]

I just thought of a fakeclaim that would have explained my role even better (and that absolutely nobody would have bought): the sarrusophone. It's defined amusingly here, but it's essentially a double-reed sax.