I'm far more comfortable opening with this over d4. I'm pretty unfamiliar with d4 openings (I know there is the Queen's gambit, anything else?).
Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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I don't think there is any reason for us to start lynching unless we're losing. The best bet is to start by trying to win the chess game, and if that goes sour, then start trying to lynch black. We have a natural advantage in that we have two options for winning. By sticking to the chess game first, then later mafia, we get the chance to utilize both. If we go lynching first, then chess, we could easily hamstring ourselves.
Move e4
I'm far more comfortable opening with this over d4. I'm pretty unfamiliar with d4 openings (I know there is the Queen's gambit, anything else?).-
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A lot of discussion seems to be hinging around getting queens out early. From my experience, generally the lesser pieces, such as knights and bishops will duke it out early and gain control of the center until later on when the queens come out to play. If you pull your queen out too early, it becomes a merry-go-round where black keeps chasing your queen around the board while developing theirs at the same time.
Move Nf3. Gets the knight out there and pushes for control of the center of the board. Nc3 also seems like a decent play.
Bc4 doesn't seem very strong to me, but if anyone has a decent case for it, I'll hear it out.-
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The majority of chess games I have won involve me taking a pawn and converting that small advantage to a win in the endgame.
However, the grabbing a pawn vs. keeping superior position debate is really getting us nowhere. You can't really ever say one is always better than the other. It all depends on the specific situation. Sometimes grabbing a pawn IS superior board position because you can trade your way to a favorable endgame. Sometimes grabbing that pawn sacrifices your position so much that it ends up being the wrong move.
As far as trading pieces goes, my rule of thumb is to trade when you're winning and don't trade when you're losing. Secondly, I never trade pieces "just because I can" but only try to do so if it looks like it is a legitimate benefit.
Anyway... Nf3 still seems the best to me. It gives us a chance to push for control of the center with d4. Nc3 also seems fine, and I would be willing to compromise to make that play if no consensus can be reached.-
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I think our only real options here are Bc4 and Bd3. We have a fairly strong positional advantage right now and we should capitalize on it. Moving out the bishop:
1. Puts pressure on black's weak kingside
2. Opens us up for castling (also putting pressure on black's weak king)
Qe2 is bad. It blocks in our mobile bishop in and loses us tempo because black can easily develop and protect the king. We lose out in development (trapping the bishop), tempo (black develops at the cost of a move to us), and our positional advantage.
Bd3 seems solid, but d6 is a decent black response that both fights for control of the center and protects the f pawn. We also trap in our own d pawn, which could serve as problematic down the line.
Thus I think our best play is
Move Bc4
to put pressure on the weak black kingside and prepare for additional pressure with O-O.
Rather than check the black king with Qe2, I'd rather prepare for Re1, which is a stronger play.
As for Gorrad, I'd have to review his posts to see where people are coming from, but I don't see any benefit towards lynching people right now. I consider white to have the board advantage in this game. Lynching shouldn't even be on the table. Giving black a NK to kill off good players is a bad plan.-
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Hm...actually Qe2->Nd5 doesn't sound too bad. I'll have to reconsider that.Pesco47 wrote:Qe2 pins whatever black moves into the way when we follow up with Nd5. Black taking the pawn in response was fairly predictable, that should give us an indication of who is scum by the level of their moves
Black really doesn't have any solutions for getting rid of that knight at d5. Then again, by trapping in our bishop, we don't have a whole lot of options for putting on additional pressure either...
I still think Bc4 is probably best, because we can always still do Qe2 (or Re1 depending on how things go) and follow with Nd5 later on, but we get our bishop out first.-
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I think we have some good responses to Qe7 if black decides to do that. That play doesn't really worry me much.Pesco47 wrote:A bishop pin is too slow. The open column gives initiative to whoever calls check first. If black does, we'll be a move behind because we spend a move running instead of developing. I intend to follow with Nd5 next turn for more attacking power. Depending on what their response to that is, we bring the fN into the attack too or bring out the cB to open up 0-0-0.
Unmove
I'm going to give Qe2 more consideration.-
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Move d4for basically the reasons Lawrencelot said. It centralizes a pawn and opens up the diagonal to get our bishop out and give us the chance for a queen side castle.
I also like b3, which gives us Bb2 into O-O-O.
I'm not a fan of h4 at all really. It doesn't directly impact the game or advance any strategy for winning that I can see.-
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g3 is decent, but a very defensive play. I'm not sure if I like it for that reason.
I don't like Ng5 much. It just means black can play h6 at some point and cause us to have wasted a move as we backtrack the knight. We don't have enough pressure on the kingside to make use of the knight up there.
Qc4 gets met with d5, slamming the door in the face of our queen. Indigo, can you explain how we get a pawn from it? I don't see the move sequence that results in us picking up a pawn.
Anyway, I like Qb5. It pins the pawn at d7, and threatens the pawn at f5. It also puts some minor pressure on the b4 pawn, which could lead to even more pressure with Bd2 later on. Either black moves g6 and destroys their kingside pawn structure or they lose the pawn at f5. Both seem good to me.
Move Qb5-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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It opens up the diagonal. Qe5 now pins the knight to the rook.Lawrencelot wrote:Goat, can you explain why g6 is bad for black (after Qb5)? I see it only help their pawn structure, or I'm missing something.
Right now, as it stands, if Black castles, they have Kh8 as a safe spot for the king. If black has already moved g6, they have no safe spot for their king after a kingside castle, as the king will always be open to an attack along the diagonal.-
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*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5Pesco47 wrote:Qb5: g6 shuts down the pawn take plan. Gets countered by a6 in the following move.
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qb5, g6
11. Bd2, a6
12. Qe5*/chess tag removed*
We have the bishop and knight pinned, and our own Bishop is threatening to take a free pawn at b4.
This is my 2nd best move for the turn.Pesco47 wrote:g3: Yes it's defensive, but gives us more moving space. I have this down as possibly the best move for the turn.
Not worth it now that we've moved d4. I'd much prefer g3 over this.Pesco47 wrote:b3: Lost a lot of it's power from the last turn, but still a decent move IMO.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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They've moved 3 pawns, none of which have developed their board any, and a knight to a place where it accomplishes literally nothing. While generally a principle like "4 queen moves < 4 moves by different pieces" is true it's not something that can be applied to everything. Meanwhile we've developed 2 bishops (Bd2, and opened the path for our white squared bishop) and maintain pressure on the b4 pawn, forcing a defensive move from them.Pesco47 wrote:From move 10-14 the queen moves 4 times while they move 4 different pieces. Talk about bad play...
I still like Qb5, but Indigo makes a good point about Qc4. I want to explore that path more before making a decision.
Unmovefor now.-
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Pretty much my thoughts as well. I didn't look into it any further than Qc4...d5, Qb5...Qd7, which appeared to be solid for black.sirdanilot wrote:Seems like a well thought out move. I was first opposing Qc4 because of the d5 move, but now it makes sense that the d5 move is actually bad for black.
Move Qc4-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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Getting a pawn at the cost of development is acceptable. Black has zero threats on our king right now. We can afford to give them some development in exchange for a pawn advantage. We just have to trade pieces away and win the resulting endgame a pawn up.
Your second scenario is pretty much accurate, except I wouldn't capture the knight at d7 with our knight at e5. He has a strong presence there and will be cramping black's kingside for some time. If black captures our knight with his, then we have a protected advanced pawn, which will be powerful in the endgame.-
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Unmove
I can't believe I didn't even consider Qe5. It's basically the same principle of Qb5 (pressuring the unprotected f pawn, while opening up our white-squared bishop). It doesn't have the pin on the d pawn, but keeps the pin on the bishop, and pins the knight if white goes for g6.
I'm going to look into it.-
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g3 is not a bad play, but it's entirely a defensive move. I wish to maintain pressure on black, rather than give them opportunities to stabilize their kingside. I don't like to make moves I consider "filler" moves that don't really have any set goal they accomplish, but get made simply because they aren't "bad" moves, persay. g3 fits that criteria in my opinion. I don't really see what we intend to accomplish by playing g3, or where that gets us.
I want to look more into the castling variation of Qe5. I assumed black's response would be d6 or d5, and we had good plays to both of those, but if black instead castles, essentially giving up the pawn for a stronger position, we need to evaluate whether losing some positional strength for a pawn is worth it or not. If we can later equalize, then it's definitely worth it, otherwise, no.-
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Unmove, Move Qc4
It looks like black castling will foil both Qb5 and Qe5. We can get the pawn, but I see some pretty aggressive threats from black that makes the pawn grab seem like too much of a risk. Especially in a move-by-committee game like this, risks like that are unnecessary. Qc4 is a safe play and keeps pressure on. Any of the more defensive plays seem weak.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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We wouldn't play Qb3 in response to d5...b5.
11. d5 ... b5
12. Qd4
That threatens d6, which would be really strong.
11. Bd3 ... d5Indigo Heron wrote:I do agree with veerus about this. However, I would like to propose that we move to Bd3. It applies pressure on the f5 pawn. Black would most likely play d6 to get rid of the Queen, or d5 to complicate matters, but I see ways for us to win on either route.
move: Bd3
12. Qb3 ... b5
Our queen has nowhere to go. Our bishop has nowhere to go, and black has a pretty dominating board presence.
Qxf5 isn't an available move.Indigo Heron wrote:If you guys would rather, Qxf5 is a move to consider, but to me, it's too direct.
-----
Here's how I see it:
1. We can play a move to develop our white squared bishop. Bd3 fails for the reasons I mentioned above (basically, it holes up our queen at b3 with no options for escape). Bd2 is better, but we still look rough after black plays d5.
2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, develops the other bishop, threatens the b4 pawn, and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.
3. There is also d5, which is currently my top pick. It's an attacking move (I don't consider Bd3 to be attacking, as d5 shuts it down entirely) that keeps black having to respond to our attacks rather than initiate ones of their own. Black's obvious response of b5 gets met with Qd4, which continues to threaten black with the powerful d6.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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No. I mean Bd2. The other bishop.Pesco47 wrote:
Be2 you mean.2. A better option isBd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, develops the other bishop, threatens the b4 pawn, and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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I see how my post might have been confusing though.
Bolded is the fix.Goatrevolt wrote:1. We can play a move to develop our white squared bishop. Bd3 fails for the reasons I mentioned above (basically, it holes up our queen at b3 with no options for escape).Be2is better, but we still look rough after black plays d5.-
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I think it was when we moved Qe2 instead of Bc4. While we gained some temporary advantages, blocking in that bishop has only hurt us. Even now, we're still trying to figure out how to make effective use of it. There probably were a few other moves in there somewhere we screwed up, but I really haven't gone back to look at it. I don't think it's important now, but I bet that will come in handy if we need to start lynching.Indigo Heron wrote:I'm sorry, man. I really screwed up this game. I've been going over the game over and over and wondering where we went wrong with this, but I have yet to see where it is we drew/lost this game. I'll keep searching.
Move Bd2
I think this is our best move. I still think d5 is strong...at least stronger than Be2 or Bd3, but it's riskier. There's a chance we simply lose that pawn for no gain.
Way too much emphasis is being put on castling. We don't need to move our white squared bishop to make way for the castle. Look at the board. Is our king any safer castled to the kingside? Not really. In retrospect I also agree that our king is not safe castled queen side (to whomever called me out on that). Our king is fine where he is for now. Let's stick with making moves that help us, not filler moves, or moves to facilitate castling, when castling is unimportant right now.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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Instead, try this for move 13. The entire point of Bd2 is to threaten the b4 pawn while developing our bishop. It keeps the pressure on black and prevents them from castling, not by slapping our queen down the diagonal, but by forcing them to defend their pieces.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:*chess tag removed*]1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 d5
12. Qb3 O-O
13. Bxb4
*/chess tag removed*-
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*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5veerus wrote:The b4 pawn can be easily protected by a5 or Qb6.
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 a5
12. Ne5*/chess tag removed*
*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 Qb6
12. c3*/chess tag removed*
I will agree to no such thing. Let's not lock ourselves into moves. Castling queenside looks bad right now, but might be more attractive later. I'm not seeing a pressing need to develop our f1 bishop, mainly because all of our "developing" moves require a loose interpretation of develop. Move it away from its starting spot? Yes. Have it do anything useful? No.veerus wrote:I suppose I could get behind Bd2 as long as we agree that castling queen-side is a BAD BAD idea and the f1 bishop will need to be developed sooner than later.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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Instead of 12. Qb3, do 12. Qd4.veerus wrote:*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qb3 Bb7
*/chess tag removed*
*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qd4 d6
13. Qxd4
*/chess tag removed*
The only fundamental rules of chess involve piece movement. I used to lose games because I adhered to principles like this. I would waste moves facilitating castling when I didn't need to. I actually lost a few games because I castled my king into a less safe spot than the one he was already at.veerus wrote:It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board.
Look at the board. Is our king in danger? Is he safer castled? Until a point where our king is in danger, or we need to get that rook in play, castling is unimportant.
I'll look into d5 more, but remember that black has more responses than just b5. I'm worried d5 is too complicated of a move. d5 is risky. I don't think risky is how we should be playing this game...not in a move-by-committee setup where black has the ability to manipulate our moves and has access to our discussion about which moves fail. I think we should continue to be aggressive, however, and I think Bd2 keeps pressure on.-
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*chess tag removed*veerus wrote:Goat, 12...d6 fails due to Qxb4. And 12. Qd4 does not prevent us from losing the pawn after 12...Bb7.
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qd4 Bb7
13. d6
*/chess tag removed*
This is meaningless without reasoning. How is our king safer castled? How does castling protect our king?Veerus wrote:Yes, our king is MUCH safer castled. And due to our position beind under-developed, we may not have enough time to get him to safety when the king does come under pressure.
The point isn't to protect out queen. It's to make it useful. It's the same reason you are arguing against Qb3. It sequesters our queen into the corner and removes its usefulness.Veerus wrote: But if you want to take that line of reasoning, our queen is not under attack either. Why is there such a push for d5 as a knee-jerk reaction to protect the queen from future attacks?
In other news, Bd2 will make our queen useful.-
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1. It moves it into a position where it is pressuring another piece and likewise clearing a path for castling (should it be necessary) or moving out that rook.sirdanilot wrote:
1. How?goatrevolt wrote:2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, (1)develops the other bishop, (2)threatens the b4 pawn, (3)and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. (4)Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.
2. That's pretty nice indeed, but ...a5 would stop that
3. So does Be2?
4. Not following about the rooks part.
2. a5 stops the pressure on b4, but opens alternatives.
3. Be2 does nothing. It may "develop" the bishop, but it puts no pressure on black and doesn't advance our position any. Bd2 is superior, because it forces black to react by defending their pawn on b4. Be2 on the other hand, allows black to gain tempo by making whatever kind of aggressive move they want.
4. The only file right now where our rooks would have any presence is the e file, which would be blocked off by Be2. I realize now, that this is a fairly moot point anyway, as Ne4 blocks that file regardless.-
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And actually, I'm a little suspicious that neither you nor veerus considered Bxb4, considering pressuring that pawn is pretty much the point of Bd2. If black doesn't move to defend it, we just simply take it. If they do move to defend it, we have good alternatives.
Qb3 and Be2 are both bad moves. I don't like how discussion has reverted back to those options. Qb3 defends our queen before black even bothers to attack it by throwing it in the corner where it does basically nothing. Be2 moves our bishop into a position where it does nothing so that we can open up the avenue of kingside castling, which is completely unnecessary right now.
I remember considering a4/c3 and deciding against them earlier, but I can't remember why. I'll look at them again.-
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*chess tag removed*e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 a6 Bd2 b5 Bd2 b5 Qb3 Bb7 Bxb4 Bxf3 gxf3 Bxb4 Qxb4 Nd5*/chess tag removed*Indigo Heron wrote:@Goatrevolt: Off the top of my head, if 13. Bxb4,
13. Bxb4? Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4+ 15. Qxb4 Nd5!.
16. Qd6. Leads to some interesting positions, but I think we maintain equality at worst, and have attacking options. I'll look more into it tomorrow.-
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I'm not a fan.Pesco47 wrote:Why not just move 11. Ne5? There's only 1 solution to it as I see right now. I don't have a followup in mind yet.
11. Ne5, d5
12. Qb3, O-O
I think e5 is a great place for our knight to be eventually, but I don't think we really benefit from moving him there now. That's one of those moves that the threat of making that move is stronger than actually moving there (at least for now).
Yep, that's the move black almost certainly makes.Indigo Heron wrote:If that be the case, 16. ...Qh4+! How would you move then?
17. Kd1
I've looked through that line some (I'm still looking for the right move set), and it looks like white doesn't really achieve much more than equality. There are a few lines that lead to some nice attacks, but black always seems to have an answer.
I don't want to give up on Bd2 yet, but I'll concede that 13. Bxb4 probably leads to a draw/loss unless black screws up. I'll keep looking at it, at any rate.
I'm still interested, though. Did you consider Bxb4 and discard it as being a bad move, or did you just find out that it didn't really work after I pointed it out?-
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Actually, Ne3+ was kind of a trap I had planned out, because after 18. Kd2 black doesn't have anything left. However, looking at it again, I realize I completely overlooked 18...Nxc2, which would foil that plan completely.Indigo Heron wrote:@Goatrevolt: Are you sure you wish to do that?!
17. ...Ne3+ (if you still wish to continue) and now Black has a clear advantage (if it wasn't evident enough earlier).
At any rate, I concede the point.
Out of Qb3, Ne5, Be2 I think Qb3 is probably the best of the bunch. Ne5 I think is poor for the reasons I mentioned previously. It basically forces black into making the move they want to make in that situation anyway. I also think the threat of Ne5 is more powerful than the knight actually being at e5. Be2 I think is poor as well, because I remain unconvinced that our king is safer castled kingside, and I don't think it's necessary to waste 2 moves to do so.
Qb3 at least retains tempo, as black is forced to move d5 (without actively threatening anything) before they can castle. That effectively gives us back control. As for what we do after that point...I'll have to look into it. Maybe some Bd2 would hit the spot .
There has to be a better move than Qb3, though. I will continue to look.
Unmove-
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There is a difference, though.Lawrencelot wrote:But if we do something else than Qb3, they will also probably move d5, and we can do Qb3 after that. Like someone (veerus?) said, our Queen is not under attack right now.
1. We move Qb3. Black moves d5. Now the ball is in our court and we again get to make the move we want, hopefully pressuring black. We keep the tempo.
2. We move something else. Black moves d5. Now we have to move our queen out of the way to Qb3. Then it's black's move again, but this time the ball is in their court and they get to make the move they want, potentially putting pressure on us. Now they have the tempo.
Anyway, I looked through:
11. Qb3, d5
12. Ne5
and
11. Qb3, d5
12. Bd2
and I can't find anywhere in either variation where we can establish any kind of advantage.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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I don't see how lynching right now could possibly improve our chances of winning in any way. If we mislynch, we give black greater say in our moves, and the chance to night kill whomever is the biggest threat to them. That seems like it would pretty much end any chance of us winning on the board. Unless, of course, you're declaring that we've already lost on the board, in which case I'd have to disagree.
I think our key to winning is to make fundamentally sound moves and hope to win via black making a mistake or us simply achieving a superior position (which I guess requires black to make a mistake) and inching our way to a win. We can't really trick them, we just need to hope they screw up and then play a solid game until we win.-
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11. d5, Qa5. I rape your line.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:We have a semi-positive line for after 11. d5... I STILL don't see how we're not fucked by 11. ...d5 after any other move. If someone would please just explain to me how 11. ...d5 does not screw us over after another move, I will gladly change my vote to avoid a no-move.
Where? I've heard you comment on how stupid it is, but I don't recall you providing any reasoning behind it. Mind pointing me to it?Indigo Heron wrote:I have proven in earlier posts how stupid d5 is
Also, how does:
fit in with your statement about d5 being stupid?Indigo Heron wrote:Just glancing at AA's (You don't mind if I call you that?) sequence of moves, he may be on to something here, but still, it still looks like a very much equal position to me.
I'll make a move tonight. I want to look through our options a bit more first.-
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Qb3 gives us back tempo. It forces black to play d5 before they can castle, in which case we get the chance to make the offensive move again. Granted, I've looked through a bunch of variations after Qb3 and they all end up even for us if we play correctly, but quite frankly I think even is as good as we're going to manage at this phase in the game. Play a safe move and hope black screws up is probably the best bet. Qb3 is a fairly safe move that can lead to even positions. Technically, Be2 is similar in that it's a safe play, but I think it leads to less attacking chances.veerus wrote:Qb3 is ineffective and wasteful since our queen isn't under any pressure right now and will have that square to retreat to next move if we so desire.-
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Deja vu? Qxf5 is not an option here.Indigo Heron wrote:In any case, I'm looking at the aggressive-looking Qxf5, which may be something that could help give us an advantage.
Indigo is correct, though. I tried to find a better scenario for the lines he posted and could not do so. Based on that, Qd3 seems superior to Qb3. The only other option is Qe2, which seems to be strictly inferior to Qd3.
Move Qd3-
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I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. It's best not to mention it, although I think the damage may be done simply by nature of pointing out that there is such a move set.Indigo Heron wrote:I see a break for d5 that may be advantageous to us. I am reluctant to reveal it, though, and allow Black the pleasure of already having their moves calculated and analysed for them.
I think much of our current discussion is harmful. All of the discussion is based around what we do after we play Qd3 and how black might respond to Qd3, etc. which isn't exactly helping us any unless it's actually affecting whether or not we SHOULD play Qd3, and to my understanding, it isn't. If we can all agree that we should play Qd3, we should simply play it, and shut up about how black might respond.-
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Actually, here's an idea:
If you see a positive line for white, which I'll call X, don't point it out, but rather suggest you think moving the first move of X is our best move.
If you see a negative move set for us, go ahead and point it out, as we don't want to make that move anyway (I think we should play from the assumption that black makes the best move they have available).
Thoughts?-
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Aye, that's a potential pitfall. I'm trying to think of a way to alert players to the benefit of the move without actually giving it away to black. I'm not sure if there's even a possible way to accomplish that.sirdanilot wrote:That seems like a reasonable idea goat, but when people can't see the long term advantage it may lead to the problem that the move doesn't get enough support.
Where's the rest of the game?-
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I think I have a possible solution, actually.sirdanilot wrote:
There isn't. Black is just as smart as white.Goatrevolt wrote:
Aye, that's a potential pitfall. I'm trying to think of a way to alert players to the benefit of the move without actually giving it away to black. I'm not sure if there's even a possible way to accomplish that.sirdanilot wrote:That seems like a reasonable idea goat, but when people can't see the long term advantage it may lead to the problem that the move doesn't get enough support.
Where's the rest of the game?
What I mean by this is that theoretically White's best chance of winning the chess game is to have the best chess player on White make all the moves but not elaborate on his reasoning behind it. Then the chess game is simply a battle of wits between black and the best white player, which gives white good chances of winning, depending on the distribution of skill. The reason this is the case is the nature of chess itself. There's no "strength in numbers" when it comes to chess. A single grandmaster can beat 1000 collaborating players on the opposite team. The opposing team's best chance of beating that grandmaster is to pick the best player, or best two or three players and have them solely decide on the moves to make.
Here are some problems: how do you determine who the best player is and how do you establish whether or not they are white or black? I think we should be able to rank players based on chess skill in a fairly accurate fashion. As for alignment, that's a trickier question, but I'm of the opinion that even if we screw that one up, we still give ourselves a decent leg up when it comes to lynching, because we gain a lot of insight into the alignment of the player making the moves.
Our current strategy really gives us a low chance of winning the chess game. How do you win a chess game against an opponent when you tell them your strategies every step of the way? You can only hope they screw up, but you've given them the tools to not screw up. I think our way to salvage the chess game is to pick a player and have them make the moves for us. Worst case scenario, we lose the chess game, but I think that is the way we are heading anyway with our current strategy and current board situation. Even in that worst-case scenario, we gain valuable insight into the alignment of the player making the moves. We force that player to go back and reason each move he made throughout the game, and then we decide whether or not we think he's likely to be town or scum based on that. That's a lot of chance to screw up, even if we end up choosing scum to fill that spot.
First of all, I want to hear thoughts on this idea. After that, I'll go through how I think we should begin to implement it.-
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Agreed. I don't know if this is a result of black having good players or being spoon fed moves, though.veerus wrote:I personally don't think that black has played poorly thus far.
Hm...that would provide some sort of a fail-safe, but could also create a scenario where the best player has the best move but can't enact it because no one else sees it.veerus wrote:Goat, while the idea sounds good on paper, I really don't see how we can pick one person to make THE move. At best, I would agree that such a person would be allowed to have a double/tripple vote, but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless that person's move was backed up by at least 2 other people.
Maybe have 3 people decide upon the move? I'm wondering if that defeats the purpose, though...
Actually, the triple vote idea seems solid. Maybe give one person a triple vote and another person a double vote? That way, those two players can solely decide on a move if they agree, but don't have the power to make moves by themselves. I think that sounds like a solid plan. The question then becomes: who is willing to give up their vote?-
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I haven't played in any OTB tournaments since I was in middle school. I played ICC, but it was a long time ago, and I can't remember what my ratings were. I played a lot of chess in high school, but have only played sporadically since then. I used to play a lot (in high school) on a site called gameknot, which was turn-based (not real time. Similar to the play here). My rating on that site was on average around 1700-1750, which was good enough to be above 90th percentile at the time. I have no idea as to the strength of that site compared to other online sites, though.
I've played a game here on mafiascum, if you want to look it up, and make a judgment call yourself.-
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Picking the player (or players) is not as simple as I had thought.
With the looming deadline, I think we should worry about making this move first, and push off the other discussion to tomorrow. I remember SSK saying that a move would be randomly chosen if we don't pick one, and with our queen being attacked by a pawn right now, that seems like it could be game over. We could get hosed by a random a3 or some other nonsense move.
I still believe Qd3 to be the best play here.-
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Actually, I looked back and didn't find you actually saying this. For some reason I thought that was the case.MafiaSSK wrote:When'd I say this?
Here's the actual rule:
mod rules wrote:21. If there is a set deadline, and a majority of votes hasn’t been reached for a chess move, then the move with the highest votes will be chosen. If there is a tie a die will be rolled to pick.-
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Not sure exactly why I was prodded...at any rate, I still believe Qd3 to be the better move. I don't get why the argument against Qd3 is blocking in the bishop. Black already accomplished that with b5.
This pretty much sums it up.veerus wrote:no.. because attacking that pawn is a secondary objective.. the primary objective is to move the queen out of the way into a position where it would be useful.. and technically g6 ruins the pawn structure on the kingside if black castles there-
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