Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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Bd2 and Be2 are both decent moves. I haven't seen a good refutation for d5 and it seems like a stronger position for white, cramping Black's position and Black's development.
I'm torn about the "I rape your line, you rape my line" game. I like it as a way to force people to refute things other than just saying "that move sucks" but it does give Black help making their moves when we do select one of the options.-
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Abstract Actuary
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There is a deadline in 2 days. If I am reading and interpreting the rules correctly if we don't make a move then the mafia will get a free kill. That is definitely the worst scenario. We'd rather make a bad move or randomly lynch somebody than that.
I would rank our options as
-Make a well thought out and agreed upon good move
-Lynch the scummiest player
-Make a decent move that we agree shouldn't hurt us, but doesn't really help us
-----gap-------
-Lynch a random player
-Make a bad move
-----huge gap--------
Pass
I'm not sure we have time to accomplish the first or second option at this point. Any suggestions?-
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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d5 looked much better to me than b5 for black. Also, Qb3 looks much better to me than Qd3. I think we should wait until a few more people weigh in before we discuss anything. If a large majority want one move or the other, then we should just play it without discussion. Force them to go into this next move with a smaller idea of our plan and how to follow up against these moves.-
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We aren't a pawn down in this position. In fact we are a pawn up (although about to lose one back).veerus wrote:Hm.. both Qb3 and Qd3 leave us in an equally undesirable situation. The following Qb3 follow-up will likely result in an exchange that will open up the board but will leave us a pawn down.. do we really want to do that? Or are those voting for Qb3 not planning on capturing the pawn next move?
Awesome Pants wrote:>Current chess board
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There is no later forced position where we are down a pawn that I can see. As a matter of fact, I like the position he shows (which may not involve optimal moves for either white or black) a lot better than our current position.Indigo Heron wrote:He didn't say this position. He meant the position later.
Why does everyone insist on talking so dramatically like they've always 100% refuted a line when they haven't even come close? In your own post below you say "There may be better moves than this" and then "but the position obviously gets us nowhere". That is nowhere near "all the stupid things that will happen".Indigo Heron wrote:In any case, please refer to post #530 for all the stupid things that will happen with 12. Qb3.
In addition, your 530 is a line that involved Qd3, then Qb3. So (1) it absolutely does not apply to playing Qb3 first and (2) is an absolute waste of an analysis, because we would never play Qd3 and then Qb3. Like you said "there may be better moves".
Indigo Heron wrote:11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 Kh8 14. Bd3 Bb7 15. Bxf5 Rc8 16. Ne5 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxe4 18. O-O Rxc2
That's on my piece of paper. There may be better moves than this, but this position obviously gets us nowhere, in my opinion.-
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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I think it is a decent strategy. Although I think our current strategy could work. The main reason I think this is because I think Black is made up of weak players. The move that doubled their pawns on the b file in addition to their most recent move have been very far from optimal. If we exchange a lot of pieces and get this down to the endgame, I'm confident we can win the game.-
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Do any of the players in this game play chess on mafiascum regularly? Or play on ICC? Or play over the board standard chess in tournaments regularly?
I think choosing a player shouldn't be hard. We should go with the best established mafiascum player, if there is one. Then we should go with the top ICC or real life players. The mafiascum first, because that can be verified, whereas the others we would have to take people's word. I haven't played here on mafiascum, though I do play on schemingmind.com.-
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Chess.com is quite possibly the best free online site, but the best place to play online by a very large margin is ICC (Internet Chess Club). It has the strongest talent by far, including many GMs.SensFan wrote:
I play both at chess.com (the biggest and best online chess site) and I also play OTB chess in tournaments regularily.Abstract Actuary wrote:Or play on ICC? Or play over the board standard chess in tournaments regularly?
At chess.com, I'm rated about 1400, which in the 64th percentile. My average opponent rating is also over 100 points higher than me.
I'm not sure how to judge your chess.com rating as I don't play there. What is your OTB rating?-
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Given a brief look, I believe they've hung their f pawn and we should take it. I disagree that it is acceptable to say that "we'll take it later anyway."
It looks like they can discover attack by moving their knight on f6 or their pawn on d7, but I don't see anything resulting from that that is better than going up a pawn. I will look into it closer, but I agree we shouldn't really jump all over it right away, until we are sure there is nothing deadly following.
But, once we do go up this pawn, we can change our in-game strategy. I believe we'll be able to openly discuss the game, as I believe we will be able to methodically just make sound moves from here on out and win in the endgame.-
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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Ok, I think we need to get all of our pieces developed now and castle our king, or move him to the d file.
If they play Nxd2 and we play Qxd2 they can't play Rxf4. I would also consider Ne5 here.
Still, I think I like Be3. It puts a piece on the e-file in front of our king and protects the f2 sqaure which is very vulnerable and preventing us from castling queenside and protects the d pawn again.
I briefly considered Ne5 as another way to stop up the e-file and give us a very strong piece of our own, but I think there are more important things to do right now.
Hmmmm, what is our plan after Be3 Bf5?
I guess Qe2 looks alright.-
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Max, we are winning the chess game right now, despite any influence from scum. There is no reason to change our strategy. Also, we have the luxury of stopping the chess game and switching to mafia on the town's time. So if we do start losing control of the chess game we can always stop and start playing mafia at that point. But until then we are in more control of the game if we continue with the chess game.Max wrote:
Because the mafia can influence the moves we make, they have a strategy, so they have the advantage when we play chess, now we are a good deal through the chess game we can now use information that has been gathered throughout the playtime. Though at some points it may be hard to tell who is misleading scum or stupid town we can rattle down a large number of players.Abstract Actuary wrote:
Why?Max wrote:Btw, despite the fact the mod hasn't announced it I'm a new replacement. We have 15 days worth of information for us to use to find scum, we no longer should be playing the chess, we should play the mafia
I am still leaning towards Be3.Abstract Actuary wrote:Ok, I think we need to get all of our pieces developed now and castle our king, or move him to the d file.
If they play Nxd2 and we play Qxd2 they can't play Rxf4. I would also consider Ne5 here.
Still, I think I like Be3. It puts a piece on the e-file in front of our king and protects the f2 sqaure which is very vulnerable and preventing us from castling queenside and protects the d pawn again.
I briefly considered Ne5 as another way to stop up the e-file and give us a very strong piece of our own, but I think there are more important things to do right now.
Hmmmm, what is our plan after Be3 Bf5?
I guess Qe2 looks alright.-
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Ok, looking at it. I'm fine trading away our bishop for their knight. Right now our top priority is safety. We achieve that mainly between development and repositioning our king. Be3 doesn't help us develop, whereas g3 does. I don't like our bishop on e2 as it suffocates our already vulnerable queen so I want to develop it to its right. g3 protects the pawn and moves to develop the f bishop.
Move: g3-
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We have to move the Queen. e3, e2 and b3 are the only safe squares. At this point I can see some merit for each of them and at the same time none stand out as great moves. After Qe3 or Qe2 a knight move discover attacks the c2 pawn, while opening up the e-file for an attack on our queen/king. I'm not seeing anything particularly devastating, but it isn't good for us. For this reason, I'm leaning towards Qb3, despite it suffocating our queen.
Here are the boards.
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I'd like to finish it. Maybe we could institute quicker deadlines if people refuse to discuss things. Frankly, I think these moves are very close, and I also think that Black is liable to make some mistakes against either move, which is why I don't want to elaborate on their follow up move.
I think everyone should have a vote for one of the two moves or be questioning something. That would lead to a majority.-
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I can't decide which move I like better. The king move looks significantly superior now* but I'm nervous about the long-term safety of our king in the middle of the board.
*
-d2 is much safer than e1 and possibly even safer than either of the castle squares
-The knight is in a much better spot at f3 than it would be on d2-
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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Re1 seems ok, but it doesn't address our weak and attacked knight or the pin of the knight on the rook. It is true that neither of those is an immediate threat, but it is a danger and weakness in our position.
Not a current threat: We have no reason to move our knight, it is currently protected and they have no way to immediately attack it again.
But, long term danger: If they can get pressure on our knight before we protect it again or break the pin, we could lose material.
So I think it is in our best interest to work towards breaking the pin and/or protecting the knight.
Options:
Bg2 - strengths: breaks pin on rook and protects knight; weaknesses: weak diagonal for the bishop and creates pin on currently unprotected bishop.
Be2 - strengths: protects knight, connects rook, frees h1 rook to move away from pin; weaknesses: does not break pin.
h4,Rh2,Rf2/e2 - strengths: begins advancing pawns for kingside attack, frees rook to second row, to allow to break pin and more easily double rooks; weaknesses: takes a long time, weakens pawn structure
As I said earlier, they can't immediately attack our knight, but they can add pressure quickly. They are two queen moves away from adding a second attacker and they could also play the risky, yet pressureful g5.
Before hearing any response, I'm leaning towards Bg2 or Be2 followed by Rf1-
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Abstract Actuary
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I had a whole post typed up explaining why I disagreed with Re1 and questioning you about it. Then in post preview of the move and subsequent responses, I decided that I liked it.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I like our queen where she is. A move to e3 doesn't seem advantageous to me.
Move: Re1
Unmove, Move: Re1-
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I've been waiting well over a week to say this . . .
I absolutely CAN NOT BELIEVE that this post was made. It was not an obvious tactic at all and I missed it the first time through as did a bunch of other players. With the mistakes that Black has made, they were very likely to miss that pin and hang that piece. Why would you make this post?Indigo Heron wrote:
Then Rxe4, and Black might as well resign.veerus wrote:Anyway, to the people voting Re1, what will your response be to ...Rc8? Our best reply to that before was c3 however that is no longer an option.
It isn't like we were having a heated debate between the played move and another candidate. This move was going to go through and a vague safe response would have sufficed to his question. Instead you made a post that only helped scum. And at that, it only helped scum if you were town, so you can't even get a scum read from it.
As it currently stands, I am of the opinion that you can't change the rules of the game mid-game. And as others have said this clearly benefits scum. Although the rules clearly benefit town, since we have sole control over when deaths occur. Still, I am against a midgame rule change and I don't want to abandon this game or draw. I want to simply play out the chess/mafia game.
Scum is free to resign. Or, in lieu of resigning, try some crazy chess/mafia gambit where they claim something ridiculous to try to get us to start lynching people.
Once we get to lynchings or if the game ends, I would be interested to see if I (or any of us) could pinpoint scum by rereading the current chess discussion.-
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Back to the chess game. Now, since the hanging bishop tactic didn't work, we are back to where I said we were before the last move. Our top priority is to get out of the pin/protect our knight. I like Bg2 or even Bh3, followed by moving the h rook.
See below for my thoughts before the most recent move. With our rook on e1, I like Be2 less than I did before, since it further cramps our pieces.
Abstract Actuary wrote:Re1 seems ok, but it doesn't address our weak and attacked knight or the pin of the knight on the rook. It is true that neither of those is an immediate threat, but it is a danger and weakness in our position.
Not a current threat: We have no reason to move our knight, it is currently protected and they have no way to immediately attack it again.
But, long term danger: If they can get pressure on our knight before we protect it again or break the pin, we could lose material.
So I think it is in our best interest to work towards breaking the pin and/or protecting the knight.
Options:
Bg2 - strengths: breaks pin on rook and protects knight; weaknesses: weak diagonal for the bishop and creates pin on currently unprotected bishop.
Be2 - strengths: protects knight, connects rook, frees h1 rook to move away from pin; weaknesses: does not break pin.
h4,Rh2,Rf2/e2 - strengths: begins advancing pawns for kingside attack, frees rook to second row, to allow to break pin and more easily double rooks; weaknesses: takes a long time, weakens pawn structure
As I said earlier, they can't immediately attack our knight, but they can add pressure quickly. They are two queen moves away from adding a second attacker and they could also play the risky, yet pressureful g5.
Before hearing any response, I'm leaning towards Bg2 or Be2 followed by Rf1-
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Re1 was not the optimal move if the trap wasn't in play. I understand your point that it was basically a "free" move since black had to move their king. But really it gave black the free move to move their king to safety and it didn't really gain us any tempo, since we will likely have to move our rook back to c1 very soon anyway. In the two positions shown above (with and without Re1, the one where we didn't play Re1 is better. Their king is still somewhat vulnerable and our rook isn't out of position (it will need to be back on the queen side). Also you assume that we would have played Qe3 instead, which was not a foregone conclusion and likely wasn't the best move in that situation.
Re1 was not optimal after the trap was revealed. It was probably our 4th best move or so. See my post from earlier in that day for details.
I don't want to have to play c3. That would severely weaken our pawn chain and strengthen their pawn chain at the same time. Both of those would result in a much more dangerous position for our king, as well.
It seems the Qe3 crowd is worrying a little too much about c2 and forgetting about the pin on the knight. If they wanted to attack c2, they didn't have to move their bishop to e4. In fact, I doubt they even noticed the weakness of c2 until we brought it up here.
What is our response to g5?
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I'm back and have always followed this game. I've always had my thoughts/questions on the table each move.
Someone said that Bg2 doesn't break the pin. I agree that we still can't move our knight immediately, but it does break the pin on the rook and it adds protection to the bishop. I believe that Bg2 weakens black's g5 option.-
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20 Ne5 Bxh1
We obviously can't play 20 fxg5.
I think our candidate moves are Bd3, Bg2, Bh3 and Rg1.
I favor Rg1 at the moment. It breaks the pin and places our rook on the g-file, which may soon become open. Actually, as I look back at the board, I'm seeing some potentially troublesome moves for black if we don't deal with some of our weaknesses on this move. Although Rg1 breaks the pin, it does not add any protection to any of our weak squares. I favor Bd3.
In order to help facilitate the speed of this game, I'll also bold my move, even though we are in preliminary talks.
Move: Bd3-
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Mastin wrote:No.
20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Qc2. Check.
22. Bc2. They give us their queen.
We don't lose anything by waiting a turn.
Mastin, these are two absolutely ridiculous lines. The players in this game aren't grandmasters, but most of them aren't terrible chess players either. If you see a line where they lose their queen, don't even explore it.Mastin wrote:Also, if they do
20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Qc3. Check.
We respond by simply capturing their queen with our pawn.
Simple, really. They can't harm us.
Qc7, attacks both our c2 pawn and our f4 pawn.
20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Bxd3
22. Q/K/c xd3 gxf4
23. gxf4 R/Q xf4
and we've lost a pawn. The moves with slashes allow for different pieces to use for certain captures, but ultimately don't affect the lost pawn, though may affect the position.-
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Please reread my post. It lays out the exact thing you discuss. Here is a sequence of moves with capture pieces chosen to make it more clear.Mastin wrote:
We can guard the c2 pawn with our bishop once Qc7 is done, the f4 pawn is protected by a pawn AND our queen. So if they captured the f4 pawn, we'd capture their f-4 pawn, nothing to take our pawn's position. If they use their queen, guess what? We capture it with our queen.Abstract wrote:Qc7, attacks both our c2 pawn and our f4 pawn.
So, no, nothing wrong with waiting.
20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Bxd3
22. Kxd3 gxf4
23. gxf4 Qxf4
24. Qxf4 Rxf4
and we have lost a pawn.
Maybe I am unclear on your read of my post. My current proposal is for Bd3 and against Rg1. In your moves above they wouldn't play Bf6, they would play gxf4, just like I describe above . . . twice.Indigo Heron wrote:Sound strategy, but that you've missed the rook lurking on the f8-square.
As far as I can see, Rg1 definitely has a chance for us to salvage something from this game, but otherwise, it leads to a drawn position.
@AA: I disagree with your move. I think that
20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Bxd3
22. Kxd3 Bf6
23. Ne5 Rac8
Also, you guys are not including Bd3 in your discussions.-
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Can we get a move count? And how many does it take to finish a move?
At first I thought Qe2 was terrible and gxf4 was the obvious choice, but I now agree with Indigo Heron.
21. gxf4 Bd6
If 22. Ne5, then 22. ... Bxh1 and we are down the exchange to a pawn and what could be more. LOL, I wish we would have broken the pin instead of playing Re1.
If 22. other, then 22. Bxf4 and we've lost that pawn anyway.
However, after
21. Qe2 fxg3
22. Bxe4 dxe4
23. Qxe4 and we lost that pawn, but have a chance to get it back.-
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Thanks!MafiaSSK wrote:Abstract Actuary wrote:Can we get a move count? And how many does it take to finish a move?Yes, you may. In the next post. It still takes 5 to move.
Mastin wrote:We need to use the pawn to capture--
It's not guarding anything.
The Queen, however, is, and using her to capture it would leave her exposed.
Not going to hammer it, yet.
And now we will lose the pawn back, unless we play Ne5, in which case we will lose the rook. We do have the option not to capture back on this move.
Because of this, I willMove: Qe2-
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I didn't like g4 at first, but I'm starting to think that may be ok for us. The three plausible moves in my opinion are g4, Ne5 and Re6. Re6 is still my favorite. With their over extended pawns they are very weak on the 6th and 7th rank and I'd like to begin attacking that as soon as possible. It will also be the first step in doubling our rooks, which I don't want to do now, but usually becomes a goal at this stage in the game.
Move: Re6-
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Abstract Actuary
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Move: h4
It is a pretty clear choice here. All other lines mentioned so far and that I can see are clearly inferior. And all discussion around the move is only potentially helpful to black at this point, especially given how likely we are to play it.
-Only bring up possible counters if you see something that is very bad for us.
-Additionally, if someone mentions a move like h6, that is obviously a terrible move, just ignore it. Most of us obviously see how bad it is, and we will appropriately disregard it, and who knows, maybe that person will be on black. Wait until a bad move gets some traction, which likely won't happen, before refuting it.-
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Abstract Actuary
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I've looked into all candidate moves for black immediately following this move and I don't think they have any saving defense. I believe I've looked at all candidate moves 2 moves deep for black and again, I still don't seem them avoiding the loss of material, maybe significant.
I agree that Nxh7 has similar threats and many similar outcomes, but I have seen some possibilities for black to weasel out that they can not do against Qd3.
Also, as long as you are comfortable playing chess, there is no reason to even be concerned with the mafia aspects of this game.-
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