Mini 728: Ye Olde Tymes Mafia: GAME OVER

[forbiddanlight]

Vote thestatusquo

Obvscum.

[forbiddanlight]

Vote: forbiddanlight

Voting the mod is just retarded.

But he knows who the scum are. That makes him an informed minority. Therefore, he must die.

Also, I always vote the mod. Sometimes it's even a good idea to lynch them. But I doubt Shea is changing his name to Tarhalindur anytime soon.

[forbiddanlight]

Don't know her well enough to know if she was joking or trying to be manipulative, but I'm not ready to vote her just yet...

Wouldn't be too hard to check most other games I'm in. I started this practice in Mini 630. I have maybe 2 games where I didn't vote the mod.

[forbiddanlight]

Still seems a little weird and suspicious?:shrug:

Maybe it's just me.

i find it more suspicious you ignored the self voter. Then again, it's possible you are more familiar with his playstyle. (Yes, I'm aware he always does that, but I'm just stating if MM will call me out on a consistent frowned upon self vote, he's being inconsistent without calling out UA unless there is playstyle familiarity)

[forbiddanlight]

I wasn't aware someone had self voted. Definatley scummy.

Except UA always does that. I mean, hell, it's his TITLE. I'm just stating people have random stage quirks. Though, bonus points for consistency...not sure if you get many since I pointed it out though :S.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't care about meta. Self voting either means you are voting for someone you know is town, which seems scummy, or you are scum

Wrong answer. There is a reason self voting is scummy, but you haven't hit on it.

I want in on this Razz
Unvote, Vote: Vollkan

I should vote you for that if you weren't making a point.

2) After answering the above, please explain how UA self-voting is scummy, given that he has a meta for it.

This however is a good point, even if MM hits on the right reason.

[forbiddanlight]

I repeat my question:
Why is self-voting scummy?

Do you really want me to answer for MM?

Oh, I'll also mention it's the same reason that my voting for the mod is scummy.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't mind. If he proclaims that he agrees with you, then I will expect him to be able to defend your (and, purportedly, his) position.

K. Voting the mod or voting yourself is scummy because it denies the town the random vote information that exists since scum random votes, or even the "reasons" used can set the character of the relationship between two players. Most notably, I was caught as scum once when I prematurely claimed victory, and my partner was caught because of my early interactions with the person I attempted to frame saying we'd lost with all the protective roles we didn't kill. Long story short, going back to D1, while not enough to actually determine someone as scum or town from nothing, can be an excellent tiebreaker if it gets iffy in late game. So, denying the town an actual vote, by voting yourself, the mod, or basically anything not a player in the game can be construed as a slight scumtell.

When it becomes meta it's null though, of course.

Uh...I don't think your voting for the mod is scummy

It would be if I didn't do it all the time.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: that example is convoluted. There were a lot of protective roles, so in my last day of life (after premature declare victory), I tried to frame someone by "giving up", and purposely mentioning my "partner". It was WIFOM that almost went in my favor. But someone went back to D1 and found an interaction in the random votes that boiled down to "that really doesn't feel like scumbuddy's interacting"

[forbiddanlight]

To clarify, are you saying that your partner was caught because of a random vote, or just because of general early game interactions?

The random vote itself, with the explanation. If the random vote hadn't been made, there would not have been any subsequent "explanation", and thusly it wouldn't have caught him out.

If the former, then I'd point out that it is exceptionally rare for random votes to have any substantial impact on the game. At the same time, self-voting has an extremely high likelihood of stirring relevant early game discussion (the discussion we are having right now is not a "theory discussion" in the pejorative sense, because it focuses on the scumminess of UA's and my actions). As such, basic utilitarian risk vs reward says that self-voting is a reasonable course of conduct. Obviously, random votes for other people are also fine for stirring discussion - I am not arguing that self-voting is "better" than random voting, merely that the minute prospect of attaining scum linkages shouldn't render self-voting inherently scummy.

But if self voting isn't considered scummy, the meta shifts and we end up dealing with it being stagnant again like normal self votes. And I'm not sure that prospect is so minute. It doesn't happen often, but I'm sure others have tales of being screwed as scum by random votes or winning as town.

[forbiddanlight]

Okay. Then this is one case where random voting was important. Do you agree, however, that such cases are the exception and self-voting in the random stage is also reasonable, given my previous post's argument?

Not necessarily. Just because I'VE only seen one case personally, I'm sure it happens more often than that.

And yeah, I am sure that it happens, but I don't think that renders self-voting unreasonable. The benefit of self-voting is a channel of discussion. The cost is the loss of things coming from random voting (but, of course, that same thing can come from the self-vote discussion)

But since the discussion focuses on the self vote, it doesn't really get relevant unless someone starts sweating for no reason.

Yeah, self-voting for reaction-fishing relies on people having a problem with it. If it didn't spark anything, it wouldn't be worth doing.

So, in other words, a meta of self voting ends up making it useless.

[forbiddanlight]

Not to mention that not liking self voters is a meta, and a null tell.

First, I thought meta didn't inflect your play?

Second, do you mean site wide meta, in which case no, it's not a null tell, it depends on the person

And Third, if you mean personal meta, I suppose I could see that.

[forbiddanlight]

There are two elements to it. Firstly, the effect, which is reduced information for the town to act upon later, and secondly the intent, which is divestment of accountability (trying to avoid responsibility for your actions) - one of the strong scum behavioural patterns. If it didn't attract such a predictable response - back before self-voting had really been considered - it would be a good shielding tactic.

Thank you. This expresses it better than I did.

The question then, of course, is why anyone would want to establish a meta practice which they acknowledge is harmful to the town? The thing is, I can see why it's beneficial to its user (countered attacks of any sort make it harder to launch additional attacks later - and it's the response to the self-vote, not the vote itself, that ends up being effective), and that's going to be helpful to them in all situations. Town doesn't want to support an easily-adopted individual defensive strategy, but at the same time it's genuinely meaningless in the majority of cases (just because there are good reasons why scum would do it and bad reasons why town would do it doesn't mean it's driven by scum intent). So, the best approach is to neutralise the part of the strategy which has an impact - namely the argument over whether it's scummy or not, by ignoring it and moving onto other matters.

So you are already saying some people's meta of self voting is already nullifying it's overall effect since it's basically allowing someone to start doing it and claim it's a defensive strategy. So, you rob them of that and distracting the town by ignoring it?

Reaction-fishing for demonstrably anti-town behaviour (even if it's demonstrably non-scummy) is, however, a fundamentally flawed approach. Fire attracted from doing something wrong is, relatively speaking, poor fire to analyse - scum and town approach it the same way. Either they know about its meta context, in which case they'll know to ignore it (or make the point about it being anti-town and move on), or they'll be new, and they'll attack what they see as being a valid tell. What you are very likely to get, however, is fire from someone in the game, which is then easily defended and supported by others - and that process of attracting fire is a pre-emptive defence. The tactic has a very definite effect, and it's a different effect to that (I believe) most people think it has.

I totally agree with this. I've seen people shielded from their "reaction fishing" behavior before. Way too easy for scum to utilize.

[forbiddanlight]

Certainly I have a meta, I just meant that it shouldn't be used as a primary method for determining my alignment. Clearly I could use my meta as a way to show that not liking self voters is not a scumtell, but I'd prefer people to look at the logic behind my opinion, my voting history, and things like that. And I'll look at other people's in game behavior first before looking at meta.

You misunderstood. I mean you still are saying a certain meta is a null tell. You still are using meta to dismiss a move. Self meta at that, which is just always horrible if it isn't a precisely pinnable recorded action.

Only if everybody is aware of the meta.

True enough, and most are with most people who do it. I guess you could trip up new people to the site.

Yeah. But, trust me, it's like clockwork that somebody will always sweat.

But are they scum?

Yeah, it happens. But I haven't seen or heard of it happening enough to think that self-voting discussion doesn't at least do an equally good job.

I'll have to agree to disagree since I think we have different thresholds for cost/benefit.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes - and this is important. I've self-voted as a sympathy play before (as town - I was very new) and it worked. It should be understood that self-voting as town is frowned upon in the same way as any other deliberate undermining of the game - it's puncturing the ball when you're losing and don't want to play anymore. Anyone self-votes as town (at a relevant point in the game) and you will attract a LOT of hate.

Of course, there are the few notable exceptions, but those aren't very likely to come up.

[forbiddanlight]

Eek, I just relalized I'm like totally posting in the wrong game here...

my apologies.

That...has to be the most hilarious thing I've ever seen happen in a mafia game. Well, that is quite a flop for reaction baiting there. You got the sweat of someone not even in this game.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't think MM's 'play' was remotely evasive. He seemed remarkably forthcoming and straightforward to me. Vollkan was looking like he was trying to win the argument and paint the other guy as scummy, rather than figure out if the other guy was actually scum.

I kinda got this vibe myself. It wasn't just attempting to discern a point of view, it was trying to make it look scummy no matter what.

Also interested in why two people are going to for one of the easiest responses to a random vote for the mod? It feels like you have nothing better to do than go for an easy target.

[forbiddanlight]

Where were we about the people jumping on what I usually do again?

[forbiddanlight]

Argh...it's useless. I'm completely screwed up for reads after losing the first 4/5 pages to a discussion with someone NOT IN THE GAME, and then having the day explode, putting us in D2, and as Raging Rabbit said, not too far from random voting stage. Except we aren't in that. We are in some flotsam between random voting and actual playing, and I have no idea where to jump in :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Lynch all claimed millers.

Wait...what the hell kinda policy is this? That's RIDICULOUS! Judge him on his ACTIONS, not his claimed role!

Vote The Fonz

I want to get some real discussion going, and I generally think this is a good thing to do on day one: I'm a miller.

So, why wasn't this in your first post though?

If millers were not policy-lynched, it becomes too good of a claim for scum. They essentially get immunity from being busted by a cop. Therefore, millers should not claim, and claimed millers should be lynched. It's a policy lynch because it's not based on the likelihood of the individual miller claimant being scum- but because it hurts towns, in general, to allow miller to become an acceptable claim.

Uh...no, not really. If you rely on the cop that much to win the game for you, you aren't playing mafia anyway. Honestly, I HATE policy lynches. They are the penultimate in "I'm going to turn my brain off" lynches.


Honestly, The Fonz just jumped up about a million on my scumdar with that line of crap. I don't care WHAT his meta is for it, that's just plain ridiculous.

[forbiddanlight]

Wait, so you're a death miller? I dunno about lynching all millers, but we should definitely lynch anyone who claims he'll turn scum. The risk factor's just too high, we'll have to lynch him at some point and imo the sooner the better.

Remind me to discuss this when a game is over. But suffice it to say I heartily disagree, and that I would prefer it if we actually judged people by their actions rather then the role they claim.

Anyway, Occam, doesn't your role PM describe what a miller does to you? Or does it just say "You're a miller, have fun?"

[forbiddanlight]

Basically this, it says I'm a nameless miller.

Hrn...Yeah, ok, not believing it. Mod meta here, but I'm pretty sure Shea knows how to construct a role PM well enough so that no matter WHAT group you have playing, all roles are fully described in the role PM. Especially since the townie PM on the front page is a good description of a vanilla townie.

Unvote, Vote Occam

.

FoS Fonz

for that horrible policy lynch idea.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah, this one is quite like the one on the front page, but it says I'm a nameless miller who wants to be left alone, and appears shady though he's well-intentioned. I'm coming dangerously close to quoting the pm here so I think that's about all I should say. It doesn't specify anything about cop investigations or reveals on death, but I will ask the mod to make sure.

Hmm...as I consider,

Unvote

.

I suppose that makes sense, but I don't understand why you didn't say that in the first place when I asked :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Wait, what the hell kind of position is this? A roleclaim is a hugely significant action!

But not one that is indicative of alignment unless you are directly claiming scum.

Look at it this way: if a miller claim DOES NOT generally result in your lynch, is it a good or bad move for scum? Obviously a good one, since it's managed to negate one of the scum's biggest disadvantages: that they come up guilty on cop investigation. It follows that if something is an INCREDIBLY good move for scum if they don't get lynched for it, then you must lynch for it.

Except that ideally, a miller claim is A NULL TELL! i.e., if they are scum, old fashioned scum hunting will out them. People didn't need cops before they were invented to find scum. People did it using their brains. Also, what about copless games? The fact that a miller claims post 1 D1 is probably the most pro town thing TO do because it prevents the cop from wasting an investigation on them. If they happen to be scum, well, leave it to their actions to reveal that.

So, explain again why this is an incredibly good move for scum that doesn't revolve around "I have no brain, so I can only find scum if they have been investigated?"

What's the ultimate then? And I, well, I wouldn't say I LOVE them, exactly, but I believe a willingness to policy-lynch is ESSENTIAL to good town play.

Follow the cop. Though that usually results in better things, when you have godfathers, millers, sanity problems, etc., it can still screw the town hard.

Personally, I believe that a willingness to policy lynch is pure laziness and it is not conducive to improving your game or actually finding scum.

1. Using my claim of miller against me as your primary reason for voting me is anti-town. I do not believe I have done anything to suggest that I am scum over miller, but if I have, I would appreciate someone pointing it out.

What if I was voting you for the execution of the claim and the elaboration? (Like I was earlier?)

As a general concept in mafia (if we're to keep those in mind as you suggest), you should be playing to fulfill your win condition, not to alter thinking in the game of mafia as a whole.

This is another reason, Fonz. So, unless you are scum, this policy lynch attitude is not likely to play to your current win con, unless you TRULY think Occam is scum.

[forbiddanlight]

In reflection claiming in post one would have been a better thing to do. But given the circumstances I didn't think it was the best move, like I said. By elaboration I assume you mean the details of my role pm - as I said, I came dangerously close to quoting it, and this mod seems to be a stickler on the rules. I didn't want to risk it, so I paraphrased as best I could.

It was the fact that you stated your PM didn't really explain the functions of your role, and yet your elaboration vaguely did.

[forbiddanlight]

OK - here's the deal - I have tried my best to explain this without having to lean on this, because I don't want to out a possible power role - but I have a good feeling that a cop has a guilty on me, so that's a big part of the reason I decided to claim when I did, combined with the other factors I mentioned. That's about all I want to say on that though, as getting any more specific can only be bad for the town.

Nyeh, that sounds like scrambling. I disagree with Fonz' policy lynch attitude, but I dislike your floundering intensely. In fact, even that post contradicts itself slightly

[forbiddanlight]

Considering the arguing I've been doing with Occam, I might as well call intent to hammer. I'll lay down the final vote when everyone is good and ready to end discussion.

[forbiddanlight]

Occam, you suck, I wanted to finally hammer someone!

Though, I find it interesting that his assumable scumbuddies didn't follow his lead about UA.

Further, did he claim death miller?

[forbiddanlight]

Well, before he died, he "un-claimed" and said that he was actually a normal miller who would show up town on death. Plus before he died he tried to out the cop and then killed himself in order to intentionally deny the town information. Are you actually doubting his alignment here, forbiddanlight?

It was mostly the fact that the scum didn't kill UA, but then I realize there are more reasons than Occam was actually really horrid town. I remembered the death miller thing being thrown around is all.

Well, then...now what?

[forbiddanlight]

Why does scum not killing UA surprise you so much?

Suppose I'm self destructive scum unable to daytalk. I'm as good as caught, and I think I've found the cop. So I call out the cops name. Hey, that's you. Why wouldn't my buddies target the supposed cop?

Though, I know of a few interesting possibilities. I wanna see where they go.

[forbiddanlight]

I can think of a few reasons.

A) Occam's a moron.
B) Scum are aware of A
C) By alerting the scum to whoever he thinks is cop, he also gives a heads up to potential doctors
D) Scum are aware of C
E) Because they aren't morons. See A

Hey, that was one of the possibilities I thought about too! Awesome!

There are others but that is the most likely

[forbiddanlight]

175: forbidden light unvotes. Why? Forbidden light, could you explain why you unvoted Occam here?

Had to reconsider the claim. By the time he had dug himself deeper he was at L-1, hence me calling the hammer in case anyone wanted to discuss stuff.

UA is town.

How do we know this?

Also, her posting at the start of today, where she starts out by wondering if he might have been a death miller after all, seems a little strange.

It seemed weird that UA wasn't dead and I didn't think of everything before I posted.

[forbiddanlight]

UA is town.

How do we know this?

Well, re-reading the day, it seems pretty clear that Occam did claim because he thought UA had investigated him.

I dislike how you are pushing what could be WIFOM as fact. We have no idea if UA is town or not. It's a lower order possibilitiy, but still entirely possible that Occam put out a scumbuddy's name as the "cop".

[forbiddanlight]

Funny, you rose a little on mine as well being certain UA is town. Or at least saying so.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not. That was an end it statement. You choose to interpret as pushing and that's probably not a good thing. I really can't say much more without saying something stupid.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not. That was an end it statement. You choose to interpret as pushing and that's probably not a good thing. I really can't say much more without saying something stupid.

(shrug) If you say "X makes you look more suspicious", then I'm obviously going to want to explain X, aren't I?

There are some things that should be so obvious that explaining them could end up being anti town.

[forbiddanlight]

After a partial skimthrough of the game, I'd vote FL for being the only one I find actively scummy - both for his exaggarated response to Fonzie's Lynch All Claimed Millers suggestion, that was essentially calling a policy lynch on all policy lynchers, and for his recent exchange with yos, pushing for anti town speculation. I'll hold my vote 'till we hear back from the mod on Occam being town, though.

Yeah...um...no, not necessarily. You basically misunderstand (the policy lynch attitude), and if anyone's speculation is anti town it was Yosarian's. Also...do you even read any of the data next to people's posts?

So, why was it your lurked through his entire wagon, popping up briefly only to say "I'll post later"? And why is it you're tag-teaming with forbiddanlight in the "let's figure out why our scumbuddy thought Occam was the cop" mission?

So, you don't quite realize how retarded this sounds, ne? Weren't YOU the one telling ME to drop it?

[forbiddanlight]

And I did not make any anti-town "speculation". You, just today, first tried to find out why people thought UA wasn't dead, and then kept pressuring me about what I thought about UA, even when it was clear that was anti-town; both of those things look like you trying to find out stuff about UA that only a scum should want to know.

Bullshit. Pure and simple unmitigated bullshit. And what pisses me off is I still think you are town despite this bullshit case you are pushing. RR on the other hand, does not have such immunity, and he's trying to ride your coattails to bandwagon innocent town.

Vote RR

How did he misunderstand? Fonz said "lynch all claim millers", and you overreacted and attacked him for it. The claimed miller in this case was scum.

Further, I FAR from overreacted to what I considered to be a VERY anti-town move. At best, you can say I laid a vote down too early, because town can do anti town things, but I was not overreacting (well, at least not for me.) Further

Yos, I find this deeply disturbing. If you thought FL's response to my policy was exagerrated and disturbing, why did you point this out at the time? Also, what does the claimed miller being scum have to do with it? You earlier said:

This.

[forbiddanlight]

You mean "RR is already under some scrunity and thus an easier target, and doesn't make me look as OMGUSy as voting Yos does", right?

No, and if you go further we can add antitown speculation.

Also, note that this was in response to her saying RR "misunderstood" when he said her response to your policy vote was "exagerated", and her claiming that he "misunderstood her". I don't think he did; her reaction to your "lynch all millers" thing, her voting you for it and then continuing to FOS you for it even after she reluctently (and very temporarally) joined the Occam wagon, was, in my mind, an over-reaction to a fairly reasonable mafia-theory argument on your part; I don't necessarally agree that lynching all claimed millers is a good idea, but it's not so off-the-wall insane as a meta policy that it makes sense for her to consider it a scumtell; therefore, her vote on you and agressive attack on you seems like an over-reaction.

Yeah, don't you love how that "reasonable theory argument" came AFTER the vote?

Again, it looks to me like you might be trying to start, in an indirect way, a discussion about the possible cop-ness of UA, possibly with a scum fishing motive. Do you really not understand why your posts there make me wonder about that?

And you don't seem to understand why calling UA town with NO support whatsoever is just as ridiculous?

I never understood why agreeing with people is a scumtell. (I raised the point about your attack on Fonz that Yos later agreed with, btw.)

O rly? Regardless, you still are an opportunist, I'm sure.

[forbiddanlight]

Further, if I REALLY wanted to continue discussing UA, I'd have broached those possibilities.

[forbiddanlight]

You: Continued fishing to try to find out if UA is the cop. Also may have been fishing to find out if UA was protected by a doc, and if so, by who.

Bullshit. PLEASE elucidate where anyone could POSSIBLY see me as FISHING for either of those things.

I'll give you a hint. YOU CAN'T

My behavior here, as far as I can tell, is pro-town; you might think it strange, but there's nothing wrong with it, as far as I can tell I think I most likely helped town by sharing my thoughts. Your behavior here and during the Occam lynch is and was incredibly scummy, in that you're acting in a way that a scum is likely to act in order to help their faction.

You can't get out of that just by trying to pretend my behavior is somehow equivilent to yours.

All I can say here is says you. Because you have acted in an anti town but not scummy manner.

What do you mean? That my attack on you came after I found out you were defending a scum? Well, yeah...

Um...no. I'm talking about Fonz' reasonable theory argument only came AFTER he blasted out the gate with lynch all claimed millers.

Um, no, antitown speculation has nothing to do with this.

So you don't even know the case you are pushing? diescumdie

And yet, you totally pounced on him for offering a policy lynch, and a relatively mellow one at that (has more to do with in-game reasons than, say, LAL). Even if you do have a strong theory disagreement with policy lynchers, it's hypocrital to attack them on policy. And let's not forget that by attacking Fonz on this you chainsaw-defended Occamscum.

Yes, because this is the first time I have EVER encountered a miller claim that wasn't. It wasn't a fucking chainsaw, it was a fucking prior experience. And as his claim got more fuzzy I got more suspicious, and screwed up by not standing on it. So fucking sue me.

There's nothing remotely dangerous about calling someone town without going into reasoning. There's a whole lotta dangerous in pushing speculation on another player's cop-ness.

Actually, yes, there is a lot dangerous about calling someone town at all. You should know better.

What makes me more of an "opportunist" than anyone else who even dropped a second vote on someone, citing agreement with the prior voter's reasoning as well as some of his own? Or is anyone who drops a second vote opprotunistic scum?

What reasoning? I see coattails, coattails, bullshit.

What? That dosn't even make sense. I read day 2, and came away with the conclsuion UA was town, and I'm not interested in explaining it at this moment, just wanted to share it because I now have enough pro-town reads to start finding scum partly by process of elimination. I don't know how you get from that "Yos is pretending he dosn't know what Occam was up to."

While I don't agree with minineko, I also just realized that you didn't exactly leave me to come to any other conclusion EXCEPT that you were using the WIFOM that Occam spat to clear UA.

And when I explained that I didn't want to discuss it because it's a really bad idea to discuss the whole situation of UA and if he was a cop or not, you and FA both keep pushing me to explain, with comments like this. Cop fishing is like the most reliable scum tell ever. The cop fishing scum tell is how I figured out for certain that Occam was scum yesterday and why I put him at lynch -1, remember? And now it looks both you and FA are cop fishing, in tandom, and you're both defending each other. And you just won't quit.

Excuse me? WHEN THE FUCK DID I EVER DEFEND MININEKO!? Secondly, I'M
NOT
FUCKING
COP
FISHING!
I see NO fucking place I've cop OR doc fished, and if you'd be so kind to point out where, I'll point out where your head is shoved so far up your ass you are looking through your esophagus.

[forbiddanlight]

The cop thing is based on the two times you brought the subject up. First, you brought up the whole "Why didn't the scum kill UA if Occam thought UA was the cop." Depending on what reactions you got from UA or others, that could very easily have helped you figure out if UA was a cop, or if others responding to that post were cops.

Well, that wasn't my intent. No real way to prove that to you.

The second time, you continued to attack me on "why do you think UA is town", and called me scummy for saying so, even after I said I didn't want to discuss it because I didn't want to get into a dicussion abotu UA's cop-ness. Basically, you're putting me in an impossible position, where either you and Min get to keep calling me scummy and I can't respond, or I have to explain my thoughts on the subject, which I've said multiple times I don't want to do because I don't want to help the scum figure stuff out. Frankly, you've made such a big deal about it, it's getting to the point where I might have to have to explain myself soon just to clear the air.

No, don't to the last part, and second, in most cases I REFUSE to let someone clear someone as town. My questioning of that was because I hate people being above suspicion, since that usually loses the game unless they are REALLY confirmed. I stopped calling you scummy, just anti-town.

And finally, I don't even see how that second point is anything like cop fishing.

You keep saying that, but it dosn't make any sense to me. How have I acted in an "anti-town matter"?

It would be anti town to mention it. I shouldn't even have said that much.

The doc thing is more speculative, which is why I just mentioned it in passing, but as I mentioned before, if you are a scum and you tried to kill UA and failed, the whole "why didn't the scum kill UA" could easily have been an attempt to get reactions from people in order to figure out who may have known UA was protected last night and who may not have.

In any case, I, as town, would probably not have started the day with that topic of conversation in order to avoid accidently giving hints to scum, and therefore I'm a little unnerved by you doing that.

Well, I think you speculate far too much to be accurate. Secondly, I'm not you. I doubt I react the same way as many people to various things. That really cannot be applied as a scumtell to me. Find one that does. I could almost grant unintentional cop fishing, but I really can't defend that, so I dunno.

Actually, I think "lynch all claimed millers" is, itself, a perfectly reasonable mafia-theory position, and it's one I used to hold, although I don't really anymore. In any case, I do think you voting him for that was at least a bit of an over-reaction, although, as I said, not necessarally scummy in and of itself.

I disagree with it, and while voting may have been too strong a start, almost all policy lynches are an easy "Let's get a mislynch". I was wrong in this case. Further, I voted BEFORE Fonz justified. I had no idea of that theory justification before he elucidated it.

(shrug) Again, it's certanly possible you're just a pro-town person that was wrong, and I'm not 100% convinced that you are scum. But the fact that you did that certanly does increase the odds of you being scum, because you acted in a way that I would expect a scum-buddy of Occam to want to act in.

*checks role PM*

Oh hey, it's 100% possible. I highly doubt I would have acted this way if I were a scum buddy to Occam, to be honest. But that's because I'm me.

Um, no, that's not what I said.

No, you just said UA was town.

Huh? What's "dangerous" about "calling someone town"? If I think someone looks pro-town, saying so is often the right thing to do; not always, but especally in a case like this where we have a lot of information to work with, I think it's helpful.

That "you should know better" comment is a little strange. I do know the risks involved in calling someone pro-town, in that if you're wrong it can hurt the town, but I'm pretty confident I'm not wrong here.

It's the same reason we don't all make "Ok, these are my three top suspects and these are my three least suspected" lists D2. (or 3). In MY eyes, writing off anyone as town, especially publically is a horrible idea either because it creates a target or it ends up giving scum a free pass to the end.

Ok, fair enough. I've gotten the impression that Minineko was trying to stop me from attacking you, but looking back it is true that you haven't defended him, so I apologize for implying that you have.

I honestly have no idea what mini is doing. Nor do I have any surety of his alignment. I should probably examine him closer but Mr.Coattails has my attention.

(shrug) It looks to me like you may have been cop fishing in different subtle ways, as I explained above. Not that I'd expect you to admit it if you were, of course.

Well, it's not like I'd expect you to believe me. I'm just pissed because all these accusations feel like so much bullshit. I always get pissed when I feel wrongfully attacked.

[forbiddanlight]

It's the same reason we don't all make "Ok, these are my three top suspects and these are my three least suspected" lists D2. (or 3). In MY eyes, writing off anyone as town, especially publically is a horrible idea either because it creates a target or it ends up giving scum a free pass to the end.

Those are both true, although of course I don't expect anyone to just take my word on my pro-town reads, nor should they just let anyone through to endgame just on my say-so. In this case, though, I think the payoff is worth the risks; there's only 8 people left, and most likely 2 are scum; so if I can name 3 people that I think are probably pro-town and then focus on the rest, then I've already narrowed down the probably scum to 2 out of 4 people (from my point of view, obviously.) Which really narrows down the number of probable scum pairs, makes the scum a lot easier to find, both for me and for anyone else reading my posts who agrees with me.

Of course, I could easily be wrong about my pro-town reads, and I'm always willing to re-evaluate them; still, in this kind of situation, I think the benifits to sharing them outweigh the risks. I'm less likely to do so in a different situation, like say if it's day 1 and I only have 1 pro-town read out of 12 people.

Well, it's not like I haven't done the same thing already. I've effectively cleared you to myself based on our interactions.

UA, I understand what you mean, I was just being a bitch about it. There's nothing in the case that's really defendable since it's an interpretation of my actions.

[forbiddanlight]

It's not up to you to "grant" people scumtells, nor are we inclined to only attack you with things you can defend against. This is not a valid defense, nor is "my PM says I'm town".

As far as I can tell, your case on me has degraded to saying "coattails" a lot. Either provide a valid argument for why my vote on you isn't legitimate, or admit you don't have one.

Come up with your own on me first and disprove my accusation of you coattailing on yos.

Also, gonna vote Minineko now, RR?

[forbiddanlight]

I already have "my own" , I said early that overreacting your attack on Fonz was originally my point, which Yos later agreed with. You responded with "O rly? Regardless, you still are an opportunist, I'm sure." Which basically shows you had no couter-argument. Why are we even having this stupid copyright discussion?

Ok, so, basically, you are saying that my "overreaction" to the Fonz is your only point against me, and point even YOS admitted isn't inherently scummy?

Yeah, like my vote.

Um, no.

Yeah, it'd be hard to get away with now.

[forbiddanlight]

Stop trying to manipulate people into doing things if they don't want to do them. I do not like this type of statement!

Saying that I'm "fishing for the cop" is a riduclous stretch. All I pointed out was Yos's statement, which seemed fishy at the time.

Um..huh? I'm confused by both these statements. How am I "manipulating" anyone?

What Yos said was that voting someone just for offering a policy lynch isn't always scummy (which I don't agree with, btw), but that in your case it is since you also happened to defend scum by doing so. Nice try, though.

HAPPENED to defend scum. Do you even pay attention to what you say? This is so obviously a set up I don't even know what to say.

And no, I also agree with Yos' point on the cop speculation. There isn't a rule anywhere that you've gotta be the original one to bring up everything you use a scumtell. That's one point of his I agree with, you somehow trying to present me as a copycat is demagogic as hell.

No, but it's nice if as the SECOND voter you added something original to the case. Too bad you didn't. So, shameless bandwagoning in my eyes, or voting for bad reasons. Take your pick.

[forbiddanlight]

That was a form of speech. You're the one who's trying to pretend as if Fonzie's policy lynch argument being a reasonable and targeting scum doesn't make your action any scummier.

Huh? This doesn't even make sense

I've already mentioned the "something original" I added to the case, twice, but I just want to add that even if I just voted you citing total agreement with Yos, that wouldn't have been scummy in and of itself. You're just repeating this because you want to keep your vote on me but have nothing else to say.

No basically, I'm keeping my vote on you because you are opportunistic scum, and it shows. Your "something original" is utter bullshit.

[forbiddanlight]

Do you believe it antitown for Yos to believe, in himself, that for one reason or another UA is likely town?

I believe it anti town for him to express it so vehemently. The belief itself isn't precisely anti town, though perhaps could be if you blind yourself to new evidence.

Well, presumably, you knew there WAS one, right? People don't push policy-lynches without having a rationale behind it for why it's necessary.

I didn't think there would be one good enough.

Your attitude confuses me. 'I could almost grant unintentional cop fishing' sounds to me like you CAN see that it's in some way reasonable to see your actions as cop fishing. If that's true, how the hell can we know whether you did it intentionally or not?

Basically it's a backhanded way of admitting I could be wrong without actually admitting it. I don't like admitting I'm wrong.

You do realize that, whenever a scum defends their buddy, they generally try to arrange it so that in retrospect it will look like they "just happened" to defend scum, right?

But, there's also the fact that there is a point where just happened really is just happened, and my attitude towards policy lynches will show that's the most likely result.

Thanks for proving me right. Your case is based on this one single point, and you know full well it doesn't even apply. I'll try digging up some other games of yours in which you don't auto vote the guy who puts a second vote on a wagon for being "opprtunistic scum".

Oh, isn't this a lovely strawman! I said second guy that DOESN'T ADD ANYTHING NEW.

[forbiddanlight]

Make that "the guy who puts on a second vote without new reasoning". Because even if that was the case, and it's not, it isn't in itself a reason to vote someone.

To me it is, especially when the "case" on me was so weak anyway. The thing is, I have to acknowledge you are somewhat right. My case is just as weak. I probably shouldn't be voting you for it, but I don't really have much data to go on, and I'm not incredibly relieved by your answers.

[forbiddanlight]

Your statement implies that RR is scum if he doesn't vote me.

Actually, I was making the opposite implication. But I guess I see your point regardless. It was more just petty baiting.

[forbiddanlight]

You see, it seemed to me he didn't say it 'vehemently.' He became vehement after you attacked him for it.

Fair enough

So do you now?

I can accept it but won't agree with it.

Right. So you're saying it's possible someone could in good faith see you as cop fishing, no?

Well, I don't think Yosarian was attacking me because he was scum like my first blush might have indicated

Do you think FL's scum?

I want to ask you the same thing. You've never outright said it unless I missed something. And if so, why. You probably have said this but I want to hear it again.

I'm kinda concerned that RR seems to have become more strident in the aftermath of my pointing out 'undue passivity.' Then again, he's come under attack. Hmm. Kinda short of bearings atm.

You're getting paranoid. I myself was very short of bearings then and trying to find a worthy suspect, and your attack on me coordinated with Yos making good points on FL and me finding the time to go back and read d2. So I found one, FL. She voted me in return, and an argument ensued. There was never a contrived attempt to look more aggressive, though of course I knew I had to get into the game properly regardless of your attack.

While RR has a fair point, I dislike how he presented it. I'd say it feels like he's minimizing it before he explains it, but that's not quite right. It does feel weird though :S.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not sure or anything, but in a game with mostly townreads you're the only one I'm leaning scum on. Hence, my vote. We've been over the "why".

You evaded the question. Tell me why you think I'm scum.

[forbiddanlight]

Fair then. Doesn't mean much but it could have seriously strengthened my vote. It means less given your original reluctance too, but null tell.

[forbiddanlight]

What reluctance? All three of these reasons I've talked about before more than once.

Then you shouldn't have had a problem repeating them once more if you were certain of them. It's repetitive, yes, but repetition causes the most slips. So your original "We've been over why" was a slight alarm.

[forbiddanlight]

I really don't like how nothing has come up. I think a lot of people need to contribute more, starting with Fritzler.

Unvote, Vote Fritzler

Hey, how are things going buddy?

[forbiddanlight]

Agreed. That seems one of the scummier things FL has done. Senses the way the wind is blowing, and votes a player likely to be the target of a counterwagon.

While it seems like deflection, it does appear a few people agree, including you, that the lurkers need to speak up or be pressured. I've answered all the point against me to the best of my ability. No one has brought up anything new. Something new had to happen, thusly.

[forbiddanlight]

So, does anyone want to lynch someone now? It'd be nice to lynch rather than...No lynch. Yes, even if it's me.

[forbiddanlight]

Huh, I didn't realize minineko was so close to lynch.

Well, that works

Unvote, Vote minineko

L-1. We have under 5 days, as whatshisface just pointed out.

[forbiddanlight]

Though I must point out that FL has been all kinds of opportunistic on this page.

I would expect this. But there is the fact it's too close to deadline given the activity to throw up a new wagon unless somebody comes in with an awesome case, and then everyone decides to show up to follow it. Not going to happen, ne?

[forbiddanlight]

God this is a lurkfest.

You noticed? Which is the main reason I don't expect any counterwagon to really appear and why I put mini to L-1.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm currently considering counterwagoning you. It was scummy of you to say your own lynch was better than nolynch. But I don't think we've even got enough active players for a lurkerwagon. Especially not if any of the lurkers are actually scum.

Anybody's lynch is better than no lynch. You'd at least have the information of my alignment. I'm afraid we have another theory disagreement.

And of course I won't support my own counterwagon unless it's minutes to deadline and no one is hammering. Also, that is a bit weird for Yos to neglect this game.

[forbiddanlight]

Incorrect. A cop lynch is clearly less optimal than nolynch.

Not even going to touch this til postgame. Fair enough?

[forbiddanlight]

Hmmm. Well, no, because i think it's of scumhunting relevance since i always treat 'I don't really mind my own lynch, it's better than NL' as effectively a premature townie claim.

Not necessarily in my case. And I don't like how you are trying to fit it in that box. I never claimed anything, nor am I planning to unless I'm the lynch. If you want to know my theory stance, I'm willing to say that any lynch can be justified, even one's own, even if one is a power role. It's a matter of circumstance.

[forbiddanlight]

FL is still a pretty good lynch as well, but it seems unlikely that she'll be lynched today given that she's been under scrunity for quite a while and many people remain unconvinced.

Well duh, it's cause I'm not scum. To be fair the Occam thing makes me look horrible because I did skim it as you say and should have looked at it closer :S. And I never got around to following up on my thoughts.

Oh, so, did anyone else notice it was 2 days to deadline and you are switching wagons?

I don't like it. I'm not shifting unless it's ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for a lynch. (Yes, I know I poked Fritz earlier. But you see, there wasn't a magical switch right before deadline that could result in no lynch that time)

[forbiddanlight]

Why did you unvote when you did?

I read it, and it seemed to fit the townie role PM. In retrospect, that was RETARDED

Explain how this is bad.

It could potentially result in no lynch given the activity levels of this game. I didn't realize minineko was still L-1 at that point though, so not AS bad, unless mini indeed flips scum which naturally casts a little suspicion on you and RR

Assume there's no deadline, which lynch would you prefer?

To be honest, Fritzlers. He completely ignored the Occam wagon, as mentioned, and all he's done is lurk, pop in to say he wants to be on a wagon or two, and not present any real suspicions or defenses.

[forbiddanlight]

FL, if you really prefer Fritzler's lynch you should vote him and he'll be two votes away from a hammer. Lets get some action going before this day ends.

Yes, because you see, it's so easy to get someone hammered before deadline that's been at L-1 for the past week. No thanks

We've only got a few hours left, since Shea said "dealine is under 2 days" on wednesday night. Can we please lynch Min? Or, you know, someone? Anyone?

There aren't that many likely suspects, and we should win this game, unless we are so dumb that we just completly fail to lynch. Like we're about to do right now.

It's too late...dammit all to hell...

In case I don't survive tonight, let me just mention that saying this 3 hours before deadline is scummy as all hell, and in Min is scum RR is probably his scumbuddy.

I am inclined to agree.

[forbiddanlight]

I agree with Yosarian2 (if it wasn't obvious from yesterdays cf)

Vote minkineko

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, forget Fritzler. I would instead prefer to hear from Raging Rabbit.

Why not all three?

[forbiddanlight]

minineko=L-1

[forbiddanlight]

If the purpose of yesterday's vote on Minineko was to lynch SOMEBODY before deadline (and that must be why FL did it, because I didn't notice FL make any cases on Minineko), then it doesn't make sense to put that vote back on Mini at the start of a new day. There's no deadline now! Since there's time, why not go after the person you're most suspicious of?

Because it's very obvious that mini was COVERED FOR by RR and Fonz. He got utterly protected from lynch.

that's basically it. It puts mini and RR above Fritz. To a lesser extent, Fonz, but I get townie feelings from him.

[forbiddanlight]

Uh, that's bollocks. I made it incredibly clear i was willing to lynch mini in preference to nolynch. I was astounded when the deadline passed without RR hammering.

This is probably why I feel you are townie. I didn't recheck, and I apologize for thinking you weren't planning to hammer (regardless, you didn't which is a little problem, but not as much of one)

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't hammer the day before deadline because i still was holding out hope of getting Seol on the record, and didn't want to curtail discussion. I must confess i thought the deadline was midnight, not 16.30. I'd have got on in time for that. I had a five-hour bus journey on the 13th, then went pretty much straight out after that, so didn't get the chance to get on ms.

I can't confirm or deny that, so I'll just take it as a null tell.

[forbiddanlight]

Reading back, I noticed something important which i missed, but which HC flagged up. Saying she would prefer a Fritzler lynch, but was voting Mini due to time pressure in order to avoid the NL, then voting mini right off the bat today with no time pressure is absolutely as scummy as anything.

Already explained. Read my posts please. I know there is one addressing this.

[forbiddanlight]

THe very suggestion that either of us were 'obviously covering for him' is grade A, steaming faeces. Since I know for a fact that I was obviously not covering for him, since i'd indicated my willingness to hammer several days earlier.

Defending something obviously scummy with an obviously fallacious argument doesn't ease my mind much.

BullSHIT that RR wasn't covering for Mini. I'm giving you a slight pass but I'm beginning to review that. First Yos and now me, what the hell are you doing?

[forbiddanlight]

You're asserting like it's a definite fact that RR deliberately allowed the nolynch to happen because he's aligned with Mini. I think it's more likely untrue than true. Therefore, i call bullshit.

I'm saying he did it because he could get away with it. I call bullshit on your bullshit.

[forbiddanlight]

I really want to vote FL right now, for jumping on Min today like that "because I covered for him" which is total BS and quite a huge scumtell (the obvious move for a townie who really believes that is to vote for me, not mini, and she failed to provide a reason for why I as scum would fake 348 instead of just say nothing), but I have this nagging feeling Fonz's vote may have been the 4th, so I'll wait for it.

No, actually, I'd vote mini, because mini feels more like scum. You covering for him only pans out if he's scum. Therefore, why vote you first? i.e., I feel mini is scum. I feel you are scum based mostly on if mini is scum (among the very few other things I have)

Can you quote 348 for me?

Mini's behavior does smell of scum who thinks he's doomed and doesn't want to drop off any hints, but his earlier play was quite passive as well so I'm still not sure about him. Would much rather lynch FL.

Keep on covering for him

I make it the third.

*RR posts*

Why didn't you follow through then, RR?

[forbiddanlight]

The Forbwagon sucks.

Actually, it's quite useful. Mini's flip would be moreso, but I guarantee the scum are on the same wagon right now. The divided town should provide a lot of evidence regardless of who gets lynched. That said, the REASONING on my wagon is so bloody horrible it gives me a headache.

And therefore, the "mini changed from a default lynch to a prime target because RR covered for him" line is BS. If your suspicion was based on said link, like you claimed it was, the logical move is to vote for me rather than for mini.

Bullshit. It's obvious if someone who was to be lynched yesterday is covered for, you want the alignment of that person before you draw any concrete conclusions. If mini were to be town, that would cause doubts about whether your alignment is scum. FURTHER, it was obviously the town's will to do away with mini yesterday, so doing away with him today is probably a good idea anyway. You are the next target provided mini is scum. If he isn't, then back to the drawing (conclusions) board.

[forbiddanlight]

1. Yesterday, you expressed some suspicion of me, while Mini you just voted for because it was better than a no lynch.
2. The thing that changed between today and yesterday, you claim, is that you decided out mini and me are linked.
3. Taking the last two points into account, the logical thing for town-you to do in order to test that link is vote for me, rather than go for the more natural-looking vote on Mini.

The problem with this is, I expressed some suspicion because I didn't have much else to go. I still say your points on me are as contrived yesterday as they are today. But you see, the town is supporting a mini lynch, and did yesterday. I've been over this several times. Your lynch is secondary to mini's because mini becomes scummier through a combination of your actions and his actions today.

And "it was obviously the town's will to do away with mini yesterday, so doing away with him today is probably a good idea anyway" is a bad argument. Townies aim for whichever lynch they think is best, not for the one the town wants most.

Well good, both match in my case.

I have learned from this wagon that you are town. It can go away now.

Yeah, it'd be nice. But if in the end I end up taking the fall for town, I hope the 2 that are NOT scum on my wagon (at this point I'm figuring the scum are going for broke, just as you), will realize the error of their ways, and that the rest of the town sees which two those are. Optimally, mini gets lynched today though and we'll see what conclusions can be drawn.

The votecount is now at 4:4, meaning that any individual currently voting Forbiddan is scummier to me than any given individual voting Minineko. Nobody on the Forbiddan feels like it could be bussing. So from your perspective, if you're clearing Yosarian and UA, that would leave Forbiddan/me as the only possible pair. Which is the general sentiment, based on the flak she's picked up for voting Minineko over Fritzler today, but obviously that's not so compelling for me.

I'm curious, on the minineko wagon, does anyone feel like they are bussing? (just to explore all angles?)

[forbiddanlight]

That last Mini post gives me a terrible vibe. It basically reads "I don't feel like doing anything to prove I'm town/protect myself so as to not provide any more useful info, but the wagon on me sucks so unvote me now please". Real tempted to hammer, but I still think I prefer an FL lynch.

I'm..this post is so retarded it makes me reconsider my stance on your alignment. Just...seriously. It's too scummy to be scum, not that I really hold that tell to be useful.

[forbiddanlight]

-FA attempted to manipulate RR into voting me by simplying townRR would do that. When called out on it, FA pretty much admits to baiting.
-FA's completely asinine cop phishing accusation (mmm, fish)
-The way FA joined by wagon. Clearly, FA's reasons for my lynch yesterday were that I was "better than no lynch". Today he first posts a vote as if I were the obvious lynch. Bull. "Anybody's lynch is better than no lynch. You'd at least have the information of my alignment. I'm afraid we have another theory disagreement."

Baiting= reactions. Reactions=better alignment classification
cop fishing, possible, but unintended.
Third point= well, you ARE the obvious lynch, for the reasons I've already exhaustively repeated to RR

Finally, who the hell is FA? This confuses me.

[forbiddanlight]

As for Forbiddanlight, you stated earlier that your quick vote today was because "...it's very obvious that mini was COVERED FOR by RR and Fonz. He got utterly protected from lynch." I don't understand why you treated Fonz and RR so differently today when they basically did the same thing: fail to deliver a promised hammer.

Fonz is to an extent scumhunting. RR is "FL needs to die" with a new crap reason every post.

is ridiculous. First off, it wasn't obviously the town's will because it didn't happen. Second, at least three people (RR, Fonz, You) mainly had that sentiment to avoid a no-lynch. Third, just because something is suggested at deadline doesn't mean that we're obligated to do it the next day. Framing your argument in these terms does nothing to dissuade me of my vote.

Well, either way, it was taken to L-1 reasonably quickly today. There needs to be a hammer before deadline this time. So, to an extent, it was the town's will given how quickly it was picked up today.

Please give reasons. Because, as far as i'm concerned, becoming convinced that someone you were on as a default, better-than-nothing, lynch solely on the basis that we weren't able to arrange the deadline hammer strikes me as a massive leap, and an indicator of scum; as if she's decided who she wants lynched, and then cast around for reasons. Add in her scummy defence of a scum, followed by a flip, and her townie softclaim (I don't care what she says, in my experience power roles never say 'my lynch is better than nothing') that's a fine wagon to me.

In your experience you'd be wrong about me. Though, in this case you are right (I AM at L-1, so I should be claiming). But, no, basically, I'd hold that stance regardless of my role. Whether this makes me a bad player or not is my problem. And excuse me if I got vehement over a theory discussion. That was my so-called defense of Occam. And then I didn't pay enough attention to pick it back up like I should have. The fact that you two weren't "able" to deadline hammer strikes me as something I'd have to take on faith (yes, I have seen both your excuses). I'm choosing the one that originally seemed scummier out of the two of you.

Anyway, upon further thought RR's actions in regard to mini aren't as surprising if they are scumbuddies. RR can't really afford the bus, since it would point to him and Fonz more than anyone, though I suppose the case could be made for me as Haschel pointed out. Either way, it would leave (I assume) one scum out of three lynch candidates, with town appearing to have the time to go through all three lynch candidates. Originally, I was going to say RR was going to far for mini to be scum with him when a bus usually would be easier, but re examining the situation gives lie to this.

[forbiddanlight]

That's assuming I thought FL would believe me we had time 'till deadline, and that her unvote in the next few hours will prevent Fonzie from hammering in the same time period. That gambit is extremely unlikely to pay off.

Why, than, did I post 348? How does scum-me, who's intentionally trying to cause a no-lynch and not to look responsible for it, gain anything from showing everyone he was reading the game several hours before deadline and didn't hammer?

Because you are human and screwed up. Don't put it as a point in your favor.

[forbiddanlight]

Wait, so you believe me that I didn't know deadline was hours away? How, than, am I scum for not hammering mini?

No, I'm saying you knew full well that it was. And you screwed up and made a move like that to try to force a no lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

What do you mean, "screwed up"? What motivated me to do that? Did I slip on the keyboard or am I just extremely stupid?

It would be more apt to say you thought you could get away with it. And it failed.

[forbiddanlight]

Why did I think I could get away with it? It's pretty fucking obvious I'll be held accountable for posting several hours before deadline without a hammer, and it's not like I had much to gain from it.

Not if I had gone along with you. If I had switched votes, we would have ended up in a situation where I've both covered for mini and have what apparently looks like a scummy background. i.e., easy target for today.

[forbiddanlight]

Which brings me back to you are human and screwed up. Hindsight is 20/20.

[forbiddanlight]

And again, it's so clearly a bad move I'd have to be a real moron to "screw up" like that.

Not necessarily. Everyone has lapses of judgement. Either way, I'll either be vindicated by my flip or given the information I need by mini's.

[forbiddanlight]

Except what you were doing wasn't really baiting, it was trying to make people vote me when you yourself didn't even have a reason.
FA is you. I realize now that doesn't actually make sense. Whoops.

Hehe. As for the baiting, well, make up your mind, was I baiting or not? You said I was initially.

I'm always somewhat passive. Not generally confident enough in my scumhnting abilities. FL seems pretty obvious though

If I do happen to die today, I will definitely be laughing at this comment for days to come.

[forbiddanlight]

To what extent does this apply to Yos2? Since yesterday your argument didn't seem so much to be that his case was contrived, as much as that he was basically piggybacking on Yos' arguments.

Yes, but his "original points" were contrived. The Yos2 piggybacking was stuff to back up his "case", most of which I admitted with no real way to "defend" it.

What 'the town' thinks is irrelevant in this context. 'The town' is just as willing to lynch you as mini (well, perhaps not quite- the mini-wagoners are more vehement). That's just appeal to majority. How have mini's own actions today made him scummier? How are they different from his actions yesterday?

Not much. But they are more pronounced now that I don't have my head up my ass trying to attack my attackers.

The thing to recall is that it only 'points to RR or [me]' as a result of what happened yesterday. And your argument against RR is basically

a) he failed to hammer yesterday
and
b) You don't like his attack on you.

So 'it makes sense for RR not to bus, because that puts him in the firing line' applies today. You still have to make the argument that it makes sense yesterday to cause the NL, in the knowledge that it would still likely mean Mini gets lynched today, and lash the pair of them firmly together. Without a compelling reason to believe that RR deliberately saved Mini yesterday, your argument just boils down to not liking being attacked.

Well, I'm compelled to believe RR saved mini and thought he could get away with it. As I said, he screwed up.

Er, claiming when at L-1 doesn't hurt the town? Whereas if you're town, letting slip that you're not a power role clearly does. AND scum has motive to do it. Like i said, i've seen players make 'Even lynching me is better than NL' comments before; I've never seen someone do it whilst in possession of a genuinely useful power role. It's always either vanillas, or scum trying to 'look town.' And it's the latter not rarely.

This is a theory argument, and I plan to argue it post game. At least in my own theoretical playstyle, I'd say that even if I were a power role. I honestly dislike no lynch...a lot.

I wouldn't quite say that; I think that, if Min does come up scum, RR's pushing of the FL counterwagon would be a reasonable reason to suspect him as being a possible scumbuddy.

Heh, a bit milder than my view .

[forbiddanlight]

No. No they do not. Do you think they do?

I thought I said it, but I might not of. I think the remaining scum are going for broke on me so they can buy a day.

[forbiddanlight]

I was asking Fonz, since he brought it up without actually answering it.

Ah, sorry. And that was a good catch...I didn't even realize that :S...I kinda semi directed the question at you but it is good for everyone.

[forbiddanlight]

I can't believe you don't see this. Firstly, I did not draw it out- FL volunteered the information without being under direct threat of lynch. Minineko claimed because he was at L-1 with people threatening to hammer him. That is not town-harming behaviour. Forbiddanlight 'accidentally' let slip something that indicated she was not a power role

Yos answered it best

Eh. You can read her post that way, and I understand why you think that post makes her probably not a power role. On the other hand, in the current situation, where I think there's multiple people who are obv town, and especally considering that we failed to lynch yesterday, I think she's right that lynching her would be better then another no-lynch, and I think that's true even if she's town, and if she's town, even if she KNOWS she's town, I think it's still better even from her point of view for the town to lynch her then to fail to lynch again, because that way we're at least eliminating suspects rather then sitting back and letting the scum eliminate "obv town" people.

SO I really don't agree that it's scummy she said that; she said it'd be better for the town to lynch her then to no-lynch, and I think she's correct in that assessment, and that that's true even if she's town and knows she's town. Overly dramatic self sacrificing behavior can be a scum tell, but not if you're just saying something that's stratigically correct.

I believe that all actions that are antitown, and that the player in question could reasonably have known are antitown, to be scumtells. There's no such thing as 'antitown but null.'

One of the best examples I can give you is myself with appeals to emotion. they are antitown, yes. I still resort to them as town or scum.

Scum absolutely have motive to do what FL did. It makes you look team-spirited and unconcerned with your own welfare. However, it actually hurts the town if you're town. Therefore, scum have more reason to do it than town.

Already explained given what Yos said.

The question wasn't directed at me. It was directed at you, and you appeared to duck it. The question implies that Mini is scum, which you believe, but I don't (the longer this goes on, the scummier the mini wagon looks to me, tbh). I've indicated that, on the Occam wagon, the most likely bussers are a) Seol b) Yos and c) FL. I think there's one scum there, and one in mini/you. At present, I'm leaning towards you, Yosarian's 'feeling' notwithstanding.

Why Seol or Yos?

As an extension to the above, I highly doubt that Forbiddan's behavior works that way in practice. (Yo, Forbiddan. Can you give him a meta example or two?)

A meta example of what? Self destructive behavior as town? I think Mini 630 had a bit of that. I'll see what else I can dig up if that's what you meant.

[forbiddanlight]

"I'm expendable if we can't get a different lynch" sentiments, either in a game or in MD.

I kinda fluctuated between them, but Mini 630 is the best example. It'd be in Little Italy. Um...let's see...trying to think where else possibly...

Open 80, my first game, had a sentiment...though it was on D1 because I was getting pissed off and kinda gave up because the days were too long for me to get used to at that time. That would be in New York.

[forbiddanlight]

What on earth do you mean here? Do you mean that Forbiddanlight always does antitown things as town? I'm just having real trouble parsing this sentence.

In any case, the softclaim is not the major point of the argument: the utterly contrived 'Fonz and RR covered for Mini' argument is.

But if I'm right it won't really matter, now will it.

I wouldn't say probably; I'd say definitely. Again, never seen a power role do it, about equal numbers of vanillas and scum (off the top of my head).

remind me of this so I can spite you next time I'm a PR

Whether something is true, and whether it is wise to say it is a completely different thing. For instance, if I had a strong cop tell on, say, Ether, and I had spotted it, it would be correct for me to state that I thought she were likely a cop; but it would be incredibly antitown for me to do so. The town knows that nolynching is bad; pointing it out isn't adding anything, and is the kind of thing scum often says, because it appears helpful and conveys a willingness to self-sacrifice, which conveys the impression of townieness without actually doing anything to help the town; in fact, as above, if you're town, it hurts your side.

I was also establishing that I'd support my own lynch if it came to deadline. Basically meaning that a hammer existed for me. So, it gives an additional buffer, though one that admittedly can't be trusted.

[forbiddanlight]

I know for a fact you're not right with regard to me; I believe you are 'wrong' with regard to RR. (Inverted commas since I'm not at all convinced you are wrong, rather than dishonest). Tbh, I can see you as either bussing, and trying to tie innocents to your partner, OR using the nolynch yesterday as an excuse to push a mini mislynch. Either make sense. The justification you've given doesn't really, to my mind.

Well, I'm so sorry to hear that. I've already said I lean more for an RR covering than you covering. Be pretty hilarious if I was wrong.

Oh, didn't you just softclaim town? Oh no, subtle reinforcement! Better lynch this guy.

If you said that and then claimed PR, I would push your lynch unrelentingly from that point onward.

And you'd lynch a PR. Good going.

But- and this is important- there was little chance of this, so it just looks like grandstanding.

I was at L-2 and deadline was approaching. The mini wagon basically overrode me. If I remember it correctly?

[forbiddanlight]

There's no 'softclaim' there at all. Everyone talks as if they're town all the time.

I was being facetious

I'd lynch a scum or a very antitown town player, since THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL A POWER ROLE CAN OR SHOULD SAY THAT. THAT'S WHY IT'S A FREAKING SCUMTELL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Except it's not a scumtell, it's a null tell. But whatever. This isn't really relevant to the game at this point. You've established your position, I've established mine.

The Mini wagon had already overtaken you. Like i said, there was very little prospect of you being lynched at that point- your wagon had peaked.

I don't think I perceived that at the time. Not that I can prove that.

[forbiddanlight]

I know. And it pissed me off, so i pointed out what a stupid thing it was to say.

Your call. You might want to step back if that's the case though.

Except you do this. You hide behind game theory, whilst doing things that hurt the town. I looked up 630 incidentally, and that was a very antitown townie giving up and selfvoting, not a 'I don't mind my own lynch' when not actually facing it. Oh, and it's retarded to believe that it's better to lynch a PR than nolynch, incidentally.

Actually, if I recall, I WAS facing my lynch as an almost certainty that day, and I was showing that I didn't mind it because I was doing horrible as a townie that game. If it got people over me, it was worth it.

Of course, I also got very irritated at that game and didn't step back like I should have.

As for "hiding behind game theory to do antitown things", you seem to think something YOU say is antitown automatically makes it so.

[forbiddanlight]

I SAY things are antitown because it can be logically shown they ARE so. Process of rational deduction. SensFan pulled this exact trick on me in noob 725- Saying and doing loads of really antitown things, which helped his scumteam, and then hiding behind 'well i have different game theory opinions to you.'

The difference here is I'm town and he wasn't.

I'd link you to some offsite games but I'd rather not make those linkages for personal reasons. I'm notorious for supposedly doing what you say on other sites.

Anyway, this will likely be my last post here for the day, I have to handle a few things (like dinner) and then due to various reasons I can't use the computer after 5.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: The RL day, not the game day.

[forbiddanlight]

Turns out I was wrong about my access. I just figured I'd mention that.

[forbiddanlight]

1. Everyone's thoughts on massclaim- now, later, never?

Nyeh, I've already claimed, but there is only one scum left. It isn't lylo...I wouldn't do it yet.

I'm leaning RR as I did before.

[forbiddanlight]

What I'd expect a two person scumteam caught with their backs to the wall being the two most suspected players to do is pick one of them to take the fall and distance each other hard while linking townies to whoever's lynched, which is exactly what FL and mini did yesterday. Mini completely failed to ever provide a decent reason for his contrived vote on FL, citing "At this point I am finding it much more likely that forbiddenlight is scum" as his only reasoning other than not liking her attack on him two days ago, and "I'll put my vote back where it was yesterday. I liked it there." yesterday. After being pushed for a further explanation, his response was an unconvincing echo of reasons previously provided by others, with the addition of the "I suck at this game" card (and I know what you're gonna say, FL, but there's a huge difference between this and me agreeing with one of yos2's points in my original vote). Also, he never put out any serious resistance to his lynch, which is something scum do almost only when they're satisfied with the way they're being bussed. Then there's FL's vote on mini not making any sense in light of her previous vote on him being there "only to prevent a no lynch", a vote meant to make her look more pro town and lead to my lynch after mini's death, and she's done everything in her power yesterday to link me to mini, despite the lack of hammer being intentional argument being totally unconvincing, which led her to resort to saying "well, you must've screwed up then".

I'm going to defeat all of this wall with two words

Conspiracy theory

In short:
Don't lynch me, I'm town. The optimal strategy for mini's scumpartner yesterday was to bus her hard. I didn't, FL did. mini did an unconvincing job of distancing back from FL. FL started the day with a vote and mini that made no sense, and continued to try and link me and mini by any means possible. Vote FL.

Nyeh, whatever. I'm not even going to bother trying to argue what appears to be utter nonsense with you

Vote Raging Rabbit

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, the reason I didn't start the day with this is I wanted to see if you were going to try to push me no matter what or switch targets in a reasonable manner. As I figured, you'd keep attempting to push me since I'm the only target a scum you can actually even ATTEMPT to pin anything on.

[forbiddanlight]

Conspiracy theories aren't a bad thing when everyone knows there's a bunch of people secretly working to kill us. You could say they're the purpose of this game. The above happnes to be a very likely "conspiracy theory".

Likely...if perhaps you are suffering from temporary insanity that seems to occur when you are backed against a wall

You know that old saying, about how resorting to cheap shots proves that you have no counter argument? That.

You know what that is? That

Right. You're saying that by starting the day without voting me, you assumed that town-me would look elsewhere, while scum-me would vote you regardless. Your logic being that townies take self preservation into account when choosing who to vote, while scum don't. The way things work is actually the other way around, so you're not making any sense here.

No, I'm saying any TOWNIE (as Fonz, HC, and Yos are demonstrating) would realize how utterly RETARDED your whole "case" on me is and actually try to scumhunt rather than pushing me.

Yeah, that's part of what I'm saying. Only before the part you "quoted" that looks silly by itself, I showed why I believe the right move for scum yesterday was to bus mini, and why I think mini's behavior proves that he was indeed being bussed.

Proves? Nothing is PROVEN in this game. Further, my flip would very quickly disprove you, if you'd like to waste a day on that. Assuming 3 scum, we have 2 mislynches left. I'm willing to sacrifice myself so your lying scum ass will be hung high on the rafters.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow, CAPITAL LETTERS. How exciting... So did you or didn't you not vote me only in order to test reactions?

Perhaps you should make this clearer. I can't hear you over your double negative.

'Cause it's insane to assume scum would bus in such a position, and insane to say your and Mini's contrived behaviors make this more likely the case.

I dunno, it's quite a bit more insane than the idea you covered for mini during that one lynch.

Also, Ether brings up a good point. Mini was scum. So I'm still scum? What changed?

So if I'm lynched today and come up town, I assume you'd throw yourself to the gallows?

No, I'd just be wrong. But that's not going to happen. It's obvious to everyone except you that I'm town. Do you really have anything to counter that?

She could've gone after whoever she wanted to, but the lynch, like you yourself just admitted, was obviously gonna be either her or mini. Under these circumstance, her best strategy is clearly to bus mini hard in order to gain these townie points you award people who help lynch scum.

Uh huh...yes, I see. Except, yanno, Yos is right that I didn't have to bus mini until later in the day. Further, how "obvious" was it that the lynch would be me or him, until later in the day, AFTER I voted? Get your timing straight.

Guys. Fonz has turned into a pod person.

?

My initial conclusion upon glancing at RR's post and seeing the vote at the end was, "Okay, RR is a moron, let's kill Haschel now." On second thoughts, I would like a damn good explanation for the above.

As I mentioned before, I forgot this and like it. Well RR?

[forbiddanlight]

I'm kinda leaning toward RR being town who's managed to convince himself that if he wishes hard enough and he's a good boy maybe Forbiddanlight will spontaneously change her alignment. Meh.

Sadly...I'm kinda getting that vibe myself...but I'm pissed, so I didn't let it go. Honestly, even after my vote it had been bugging me :S...I really don't know what to do :S.

Yeah...I sounded sorta passive on it in my last post, but the more I think about it, the more I support a massclaim.

As I said, with 7 players, it's PROBABLY unecessary, but...

And by 7 players I mean 6 players because Shea can't count.

Nyeh, I'm ambivalent. As I have already claimed.

[forbiddanlight]

So did you or didn't you not vote me only in order to test reactions?

Only yours

Being on the minority doesn't necassarily make one wrong, as you well know.

True, but that doesn't counter anything really

I guess Fritz was looking like sort of a viable option as well, but the most likely thing by far was mini getting lynched and it makes total sense for him to at least want to distance his buddy.

Yeah, too bad I'm not his buddy

My logic and FL's defense are both strenghtening my feeling that she's scum, but I can't seem to shake the nagging feeling that HC-scum is sitting back and enjoying the show.

Your logic is wrong. That is all.

The two objectives are mutually exclusive, so mini could've either gone for going down as quietly as possible while making his parner look as good as he can, or fighting hard to get a townie lynced instead of him. Trying to do both clearly results in epic fail, so I think mini and his buddy choose a clear course the night before, and FL starting the day with a vote on mini that makes no sense given her previous posting strongly supports this.

I've already explained this. The linkages I saw made Fritz less likely.



Also interesting. The minute Ether says something about how she is nagged by RR scum not being the play, both me and RR have doubts. I'm trying to conclude if this is important or not.

[forbiddanlight]

Er, hello?

Oh, well, you don't count since your wrong anyway

Except that you could have seen that bussing earlier would look better, and not realised the logical streeeeeeeeetch needed to do it.

Maybe, but now we are getting into play that's probably above my ability. You both say I screwed up and was making a good move. Doesn't work that way. (Waits to be called on this)

I really don't want to get sucked into this debate with you, since I might end up sucked into a quotewar like poor Forbiddanlight. Reading them is painful enough. (I am implying something here. Cut that out.) But let's go through your case.

"What I'd expect a two person scumteam caught with their backs to the wall" indicates that your case is speculative and circular from the start. If we accepted your proposition that Forbiddanlight and Minineko were the highest players on people's suspicions lists at the start of Day 4, then if Forbiddanlight were not scum, Minineko would not feel pressured to do this hard distancing. Instead, he'd vote someone and sorta hope maybe it'd die first but not realistically expect it.

Sorry about the quote wars...I tend to have a very Wall of Text style

It's not a circular argumnet. I believe mini's behavior makes a lot more sense if she's his buddy than if she's town, and it's therefore more likely she's scum. The conclusion derives from analysis of various options, not from one of the preassumptions.

You believe that...but you still have to assume both of us are scum to have a case, thus making it circular, as Ether said.

But looking back at discussion, FL was just as vulnerable as Fritz if not moreso. Anyways, the obvious result of yesterday was a mini lynch, and if he figured Fritz was a more likely lynch than FL like you say that just further goes to prove that his vote on FL wasn't meant to achieve the best odds of getting a "townie" lynched instead of himself.

At this point you are just jamming "evidence" to fit your theory. It doesn't work...

As for the forbwagon hate, the reasoning you outlined isn't the full picture - there's also the cop fishing bit, and her vote on mini not making sense. As for the mini wagon, before he started acting like indifferent scum yesterday I was very close to neutral on him. You explained the case on him as "continuous lurker who never did anything ever and didn't so much as acknowledge Occam", but the exact same could be said on Fritzler (and while it fits his meta to lurk, ignoring Occam is an extremely odd move for him).

First, the cop fishing was not intentional, if it was at all there. I still say it's arguable. Secondly, I believe that I had reasonable reasons to vote mini instead of Fritz. Why would I put myself out there like that by reversing a previous stance?

My doubts are a result of rereading the early game. Despite the timing, they have nothing to do with what Ether said.

Uh huh. Well, maybe so.

[forbiddanlight]

Everyone agrees with me! 'Uh, no they don't.' 'Well, you're wrong, so you don't count. Only people who are right (ie, agree with me) count.'

And people wonder why she looks like scum. Ugh.

That was kinda the point. But I honestly don't care at this point since I'm assuming we have enough of a townie buffer so if you all DO decide to lynch me, it won't hurt you overmuch.

1. We can't know your motivations.
2. Of course it's arguable, that's what everyone's doing isn't it?

Fair

And it really isn't a circular argument to say that two players' actions make perfect sense if they're scum together. That's not circular reasoning, though it is confirmation bias; that the actions we have seen can be explained by a mini-FL scumpair just says that she's not obvtown; to show that she's likely scum, RR would have to answer Ether's challenge, and explain why they make more sense than other pairings, or more sense than FL-town.

Nyeh, they are relatively close to each other. Dangerously so.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, that I agree with; even if RR is telling the truth and did completly forget the deadline (and just the idea that he would make a post like this, saying something like "let's get some action going before the day ends" and announcing he was going to be away for a while without first checking to see when the deadline is bugs me), but even if he did, then he still tried to derail the Mini wagon in favor of a Fritzler wagon here, still tried to convince FL to unvote Mini in order to vote Fritzler.

Perhaps he really didn't know when the deadline is, but even if so, he was still trying to prevent a scum from being lynched here.

Finally, my point is gotten. I screwed up and ascribed too much conspiracy to it. But this is what I meant the whole time and didn't know how to say it :S.

[forbiddanlight]

It's totally a double standard, since RR and Forbiddanlight are also at that point right now, but, y'know.

I've said my piece and there's been little (nothing) to respond to. I see a discussion about another game I wasn't in.

[forbiddanlight]

Oddly, I get the feeling one of them is lying. Isn't that weird.

[forbiddanlight]

Huh...that is intriguing

Basically, only I, Haschel, RR, and Fonz can be scum. As for me that only leaves three choices.

The problem is that we'll be in F3 tomorrow.

I'd rather lynch correctly today, but it will be close.

[forbiddanlight]

To be honest, I thought Yosarian was the cop which is why I tried to gracefully shut up about it.

As for this...

Well, I personally lean towards RR, but it's possible HC is the liar. I do believe that one of those two are the scum, but I don't really know which. I know I'm not really adding anything, but I'm drawing a blank and hoping something comes to me as I post :s.

[forbiddanlight]

It does mean that RR's not my second choice, dunno. I'm secondguessing myself a little on Forbiddanlight and might have to actually read WOMAFIA at some point to reassure myself. (Well...to reassure other people. If we lynch Haschel as town, it's not like I'm gonna be the one making the endgame decision.)

I will state Incog forgot to mention the main advantage I had in WOMAFIA as scum that I wouldn't have here.

I replaced in near the end of D1 for a lurker and bothered to do a complete summary/"analysis" of the game when I replaced in. I think that started people's opinions towards seeing me as town and I was given more leeway than I deserved at that point.

[forbiddanlight]

Anyone averse to me hammahing? I still think RR is more likely, but I like lynching.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm averse to you hammahing, for obvious reasons.

Ok, then I won't

Oh shi-!

(yeah, I don't think your opinion counts this time)

[forbiddanlight]

Apparently no one cares, so

Unvote, Vote Haschel Cedricson

[forbiddanlight]

Yay, we win!

[forbiddanlight]

And FL... I told you your case on RR was bollocks. (To be fair, you could say the same thing. RR was innocent, it seemed obv to me, you looked scummy for attacking him. Replace me, RR and you with Ether, you and RR, and the same thing is true).

It's an unfortunate side effect of how I play. I'm trying to get better about that. And a lot happened. Glad we lynched right in the end.

I didn't really contribute much to catching scum though. I mean, yay, I made the right choice at the beginning of D3, but that's not that amazing...

Totally off on RR as you said, sorry about that RR, didn't really catch Haschel, and was too lenient on Occam...

[forbiddanlight]

You were on Minineko. Albeit for the wrong reasons.

Which hardly counts to me. I hate it when people catch me for the wrong reasons, and I hate doing it myself.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh yeah, happy scumday. At least you got a perfect day game for it

[forbiddanlight]

Honestly, as I said, I thought Yos was the cop and getting on me a bit too strongly about the "fishing" because I might out him.

[forbiddanlight]

Heh, so even you thought you were scum

[forbiddanlight]

My problem in this game is I had nothing. I was totally outclassed in the logic department by practically every other player, so I decided to just shut up the whole time. I'm really glad I was night killed when I was, cus I knew A) Fonz was totally gonna snap and gun for me all day yesterday, and B) I'd have to start talking even if he didn't

Well, at least I didn't outclass anyone's logic ^-^. I definitely played like the VI this game and I'm glad you all saw past it.

[forbiddanlight]

To be fair, the cast list had an awesome set of scumhunters and scum that...was alright.

Course, I just kinda sucked this game, lol.