Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[Tuberkulos]

First I'm on the road to Rome, then I'm on Coney Island and now I'm in Rome? That's what I call a detour.

[Tuberkulos]

Now that was a waste of four pages.

[Tuberkulos]

Wethever you are town or scum, that's a bold move Glork.

vote: Assmaster

[Tuberkulos]

Wethever you are town or scum, that's a bold move Glork.

vote: Assmaster

Your position on Glork here doesn't seem to lean one way or the other and ends up pretty much stating the obvious. Is your vote on Assmaster random or does it have any valid reasoning behind it?

Glork could flip either way. Just saying that it was a bold move and I think it was a bit uncalled for.

There was a reason behind my vote. Why ask people to make a wagon on someone? I thought the whole point of wagons was that you watch and see who joins in by own force. Telling people to join a wagon just gives them an excuse to do so. A poor one yes, but stil an excuse. Hence my vote. Do not consider it too serious though. Anyone here could flip either way for me as it is right now.

Xtoxm's selfvote doesn't sit well with me at all. What was your reason for that anyway Xtoxm? You claimed random. I got the feeling that there was something more about it than just random though.

[Tuberkulos]

Yeah; I dislike Xtoxm's self-vote as well. I've seen pro-town people self vote for bad reasons too often lately to really consider it a scumtell anymore, but it's still an anti-town move.

Voting someone that you know is town, is anti-townish. Sure, voting yourself is a different thing but selfvotes doesn't provide us anything. They are either there to confuse us or to play the "martyr card".

[Tuberkulos]

[quote="Pathetric"}I understood Tuberk's vote at the time and it was the first thing I liked out of him. But Primate is probably town purely because he has 16 posts. Tuberk should vote Dahill instead. [/quote]

Why should I, specificaly, vote Dahill?

I skimmed through a little and tried to find out if there was any obvious reasons for why I should vote him and found none. Maybe it was just a joke since telling me who to vote was the reason for my vote on Assmaster?

Anyway, when I skimmed through dahill's posts, I must say that his reaction to Glork's "hammer" was very calm. Maybe it's just me but I would have reacted a little stronger if a hammer like that had occured.

[Tuberkulos]

Fair enough. Selling wagons isn't a bad/scummy move per se, but I prefer when wagons tend to sell themselves.

I did by no means try to question your vote on Dahill by the way. It's seems fair, but I got the feeling that I specifically should vote him, since you said: "Tuberk should vote Dahill instead".

What did you think my reasons were for voting Assmaster?

[Tuberkulos]

I had a similiar discussion about this in another game that I'm currently involved with. A guy got at L-2 quite early in the random face and started ranting about "scum could just waltz in and kill me". I didn't see that happen there, and I would be really suprised if I saw it happen here. However, putting someone at L-1 is always a tense moment (atleast for the person at L-1), of course much less so at an early stage.

Glork is an experienced player (please, let's not talk about alts again) and was definitely not trying to lynch Xtoxm. I read it as he voted Xtoxm because Xtoxm didn't answer his question and maybe also to make him unvote himself.

[Tuberkulos]

I know that your post is directed to Glork, but I feel like giving my input on this.

Protecting oneself isn't necessarily bad, but you make it sound like something scummy to do. Personally I don't see your unvote as something scummy, your vote on yourself was however. Your refusal to answer a question is aswell something that I don't like.

Also, you are missing out on one huge point. Very rarely (I haven't experienced it but I guess it happens) will scum be dumb enough to hammer you for absolutely no (or poor) reasons at all.

Pathetric also looks kinda scummy.

Why?

unvote

[Tuberkulos]

Interestingly, I actually expected a different reason behind your Assmaster vote aside from the one you've provided here. Does it bother you that I, too, asked people to wagon someone?

If you are trying to put me in a bad light here, you must allow to write "Ha ha ha". I think it was pretty obvious that you were not serious. Or were you?

Quick everyone! Wagon Xtoxm!

I couldn't take this as anything else than a joke.

[Tuberkulos]

i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

Yet this is your reason for not voting Xtoxm?

i would be 100% down for lynching xtoxm except for one thing. he has done stuff like this before in games, as town. i wouldn't put against him to be lying, even if he's town.

[Tuberkulos]

those are things he's done in actual mafia games
by outside, i mean like GD, MD, mishmash, etc.

Still, this reflects your view on actual mafia games. Should we have taken it more seriously if you had posted it in an actual mafia game? If so, why?

i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

Maybe it's just me interpreting your post wrongly, but it sure sounds like you are agreeing with Glork on the matter.

[Tuberkulos]

i think yes, it should be taken more seriously if it was in an actual mafia game, because if i say "voting without reasons isn't scummy"

in every game i'm in

and then suddenly switch my stance here. then would be most certainly strange.

I'm confused here. Is it the number of times you say something that should be taken in consideration, where you say it, or both?

[Tuberkulos]

Dear Ether,

Could you answer this, please?

What did you think my reasons were for voting Assmaster?

The reason for why I wonder is because you said:

I understood Tuberk's vote at the time and it was the first thing I liked out of him.

But when I explained exactly why I voted Assmaster you apparently had misunderstood my vote, correct?

My advertisement wasn't a joke, though I admit skimmed your explanation pretty badly after seeing that it was indeed something about pushing the Xtoxmwagon. I didn't realize your dislike of Primate's remark wasn't based on the context: in general, I think selling wagons is a necessary way to move the game forward.

Hence my question.

Thanks in advance!

Sincerely yours,
Tuberkulos

[Tuberkulos]

Dear Tuberkulos: Hmm. I could have sworn I'd answered this already, but apparently not. It was an extension of my 124; I thought your Primvote was for advertising a wagon to "kick off" a game that had already been kicked off, denying previous material. (For the record, I was fine with his baiting you response.)

To both of you: What are your opinions on Xtoxm, Coriolanus and Dahill?

All right, that would've been a pretty valid reason to vote him too, I guess. I also bought that he wanted to see my response.

Xtoxm

Xtoxm has definitely not been a benefit to town so far. His self-vote and claim doesn't sit well with me at all. Some of you have played with him before it seems and claim that he has done similiar things in the past as town, so when looking at his history he might look town (not so scummy) to you. I have never played with him and when looking at this game solely (combined with the fact that he isn't a newbie), I read him as scummy.

Dahill1

Dahill1 got stuck at why Coriolanus was so defensive when pressured about being an alt. I don't understand why Dahill1 got so caught up in that because he didn't even find it scummy.

Dahill1's defense about quoting Glork has flaws. He claims at first that it is the location of the forum that depends on wethever info about other players is useful. Which in itself doesn't make any sense to me. An opinion or argument has as much value in a mafia game as it does in a mafia discussion elsewhere, in my opinion.

Hypothetical Situation 1: a) I say it's not scummy to do "XXX" in a previous game I have played here.
b) In a later game, I call someone out for doing "XXX". This is a contradiction because I previously had stated my stance which was clearly "XXX" isn't scummy.

Hypothetical Situation 2: a) I post someone's opinion on "YYY" which is contrary to another player's in mafia discussion. The opinion states that doing "YYY" isn't scummy.
b) I call someone out in a game for doing "YYY". This isn't contradictory because I never agreed that doing "YYY" wasn't scummy.

Hypothetical Situation 2

is exactly what we have here. But I don't understand the difference if

Hypothetical Situation 2

had occured in an actual mafia game. In other words, if Dahill1 had made the exact same quote in an actual mafia game dose that automatically make him agree with the argument/statement/post he quotes?

First it's the location of one's post that matters if it's of value or not. Then it's also the amount of times you make that post. His arguments aren't solid.

Coriolanus

Coriolanus got quite worked up in the alt-or-not discussion, but it's nothing that interests me. I don't understand his logic about letting Xtoxm live through the day if he is scum.
"Officer, we have reports on a violent man at Ceasars Palace."
"Okay, but let's go the Mirage instead."
"But Officer..."
"No butts! Let's go to the Mirage. Maybe there is a criminal there too?"
Makes no sense to me at all.

vote: Dahill1

[Tuberkulos]

so you're voting me for a faulty argument over posting in games/MD?

I'm voting you because you have been vauge with what you mean. I've intepreted your posts in a totally different manner than you wanted them to be.

You didn't say: "I agree with this post!"
You didn't say: "I don't agree with this post!"

You could come here and tell us that you meant something completely different than we (in this case I) thought you meant. Now, you have to agree that it isn't so strange that someone (in this case I) read your post as you agree with Glork.

I'm not voting you for a faulty argument. I'm voting you for an argument that I think is true.

I'll be away for atleast 3 days. 5 tops!

[Tuberkulos]

That is a pathetic reason. Was calling me town jsut an attempt to look good?

I believe it's a pathetric reason...

[Tuberkulos]

i am becoming more and more convinced dahill is the right lynch.

What makes you say that?

I'm confident with my case on Dahill1 and I believe that it's stronger than the case on Xtoxm. But Dahill1 wont be here and claim/defend himself, so I'll have to do "a pathetric".

unvote: Dahill1
vote: Xtoxm

[Tuberkulos]

A lynch suffers the requirement of a simple majority. If there is no majority at deadline, there will be no lynch.

It is now day one. With 12 alive, it will take 7 votes to lynch.

I'm a bit confused. Do you mean installynch? Or won't there be a lynch if only 6 people vote on someone?

[Tuberkulos]

Glork, what do you think that Dahill1 have done that makes him look protown?

vote: Dahill1

[Tuberkulos]

This thread kind of lost me due to the vacation and server problem thingy, so I'll have to do a little re-read.

nothing. i thought i saw something, but i decided i didn't.

What did you think that you saw? (Is that sentence correct? It sounds so wrong when I read it out loud to myself.)

[Tuberkulos]

Um...you do realize those two statements kind of agree with each other, EA?

Well, they (the statements that is) do definitely not contradict to eachother but why would someone feel the need to investigate someone that they

firmly

believe is protown?

With that said, I personally read Glork's post (#301) as; "I believe he is protown but one can never know for sure".

With that also said, if he

firmly

believed dahill1 to be protown, he would probably have a good read on him already. Therefore no reason for further "investigations".

[Tuberkulos]

This thread kind of lost me due to the vacation and server problem thingy, so I'll have to do a little re-read.

nothing. i thought i saw something, but i decided i didn't.

What did you think that you saw? (Is that sentence correct? It sounds so wrong when I read it out loud to myself.)

Still waiting for an answer.

Glork, what do you think that Dahill1 have done that makes him look protown?

Still waiting for an answer.

[Tuberkulos]

I'll have to re-read from atleast page 20 so I can catch up on what have happened since the last time I checked the thread. Sorry for the inconvenience caused by my absence. I'll do my best to post in the same manner as before.

[Tuberkulos]

I'm fine with a massclaim.

[Tuberkulos]

Conspirator.

I'll soon post what I think of the last few pages.

[Tuberkulos]

I'll dedicate this evening to some serious (I hope) re-reading. A post will come within 24 hours.

[Tuberkulos]

I'm going to start and say that I haven't done a thourghly re-read. Hell, I haven't even made a whole re-read. I blame Des, Glork and my laziness.

I don't like the way Yos2 "OMGUS attacked" EA. Even though I must say that it's strange with someone (in this case EA) voting two guys and shortly after get town reads from both of them. What happened to case on Dahill1 that he "understood"? I can't recall that Dahill1 made much in the beginning of D2 to clear himself of suspicion. Anyway, I'll probably have to go back in give that a re-read too... (yuck).

Good news, this game is the only game that I will have to focus on until Saturday, so this thread will have my full attention tonight (after Operation: Dinner Out and Operation: The Movies) and tomorrow morning.

unvote:Dahill1

I feel that it's nothing but fair at this moment.

[Tuberkulos]

EBWOP: I thought I had thrown in a vote on dahill1 once again. My bad.

[Tuberkulos]

Page 19-23

Most of these pages were about Glork defending Dahill1/Xtoxm and if the case against Dahill1 was valid or not. Alot of meta-gaming from El Des and Glork, which I haven't payed much (if any) attention to. There is also a Yos2 vs. EA going on which I will dvelve into later.

El des:

You say that you dislike my posts and have a bad feeling about me. I know that I have seven more pages to go but so far I can't see that you have elaborated on that, so feel free to do so if you haven't.

The Contradiction

for voting assmaster with seemingly no reason,

and i found it strange (scummy strange) that he didn't even really comment on xtoxm.

Terrible.

Ether points to Dahill voting Tuberkulos "for voting assmaster with seemingly no reason". She comments that it's "terrible", linking to a post of his from a Mafia Discussion thread where he seems to be saying that he believes that "voting with seemingly no reason" isn't scummy in itself and can actually be useful.

It is clear to me that the contradiction Ether pointed out is that dahill appears to have voted for Tuberkulos for a reason he previously said he didn't actually believe was scummy in MD. Simple.

The Flailing

[quote="dahill1, Post 145""]meh. i was merely citing it as one of the opposing viewpoints to the situation. i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.

When I read this, I thought dahill was making shit up. Quoting someone saying "stating "X is scum" and giving no real reason why" in a "5 things I hate in Mafia" thread then immediately following it with the sentence, "Take it away, glork!" and a huge quote of a player (Glork) laying out in great detail why unexplained votes can be awesome does not give me the impression that dahill1 was just posting it as a diplomatic citation of an opposing viewpoint for the sake of hearty debate. Hence, dahill claiming that that

was

what he was doing sounded like bullshit.

His next sentence, about not liking info outside a game being use, seemed desperate. In context, I assume he was trying to say something like, "even if that was what I said, I shouldn't be held accountable for it in this game." The only reason I can see for us to ignore what we read him saying in Mafia Discussion is if he actually

lies

about his opinions on theory there, which is, again, bullshit. This last point in particular, made it look like dahill was flailing and trying to deflect attention from the contradiction Ether pointed out in any way he could.

So, it wasn't a "bad" argument. By my read, it was pretty reasonable.

des[/quote] This is a correct analyzis of how I look at the matter. However, Pathetric had a slightly different view.

Basically, at no point did my interpretation of Ether's attack make any sense to me. If you feel that her attack was and is still valid, I would absolutely love for you to re-explain it, because I still see nothing incriminating there. Because here is what I see across this timeline:
--Dahill calls an unfounded vote scummy.
--Ether points to MD, he says "yeah, but that's not actually how I feel about those votes in real games," and he points out that he basically did it for shits and giggles.
--Ether maintains that there is a contradiction
--I ask if she could find Dahill's "quoting Glork for the lulz" to be believable
--Ether says yes, but that she didn't like his Corio-vote, and that his defense was an extension of the contradiction
--I point out how flawed that is, because the contradiction only exists if she disbelieves his explanation, which she clearly said she found to be believable, and I wonder how she can call his defense an "extension" of a nonexistent contradiction

This is the difference between me and Pathetric. I don't believe that dahill1 quoted Glork "for the lulz".

I really like Incog's thinking and I agree with what he have said on these pages. I find it interesting that El Des have used so much meta when he in other threads have expressed opposition to meta-gaming.

Glork:

Glork, what do you think that Dahill1 have done that makes him look protown?

Still waiting for an answer.

But whenever I get out of the office, I'm eating dinner, going back to the hotel, and reading up on Yos (and answering to both Yos and Tuber).

I still haven't seen any answers. Maybe they are on one the pages I haven't read yet. If not, please answer them.

Corio:

What did you think that you saw?

i don't think i should say (and honestly, it's not much.)

i like how dahill waffles on the EA/Yos argument, and ends up barely choosing the most popular argument.

this game could really benefit from a wagon right now. i say dahill.

I don't understand why you shouldn't say anything. If it isn't much, I can't see how it would harm in anyway. Also, could you specify what exactly you thought would come out of a wagon at that point?

Charter:

That's a step in the wrong direction.

How do you know?

It would also be great if you quys could tell me how to link to specific posts.

[Tuberkulos]

Personal issues are preventing me from being able to focus on anything right now. I'll try to read through from 23-30, and briefly comment. If I were forced to vote today, it would be dahill1.

[Tuberkulos]

@ Dahill, Tuber and Ass -

can you respond to this?

Everyone but EA and Glork, what do you think of posts 13 through to 20?

Random.

However, since you clearly have read into those posts I've tried to analyze them. And the only interesting thing is this:

Also, the fact that I only FoSed Yos clearly indicates that I'm not convinced dahill is town.

Also, I'm smarter than the average bear.

I guess one could believe that Glork is trying to distance himself from Dahill1 and after that try to draw attention from everything with a joke post which screams, "Look what a bunch of random funny posts I've made!".

vote:Dahill1[/quote]

[Tuberkulos]

EBWOP:

vote: dahill1

[Tuberkulos]

@ Glork:
I think you missed the part where I said that I think post 13-30 (or whatever it was) are random... I were just trying to see something that

someone

could believe is there. However, those posts doesn't interest me at all.

I'm actually a bit surprised that El Des doesn't mention me, especially since he called out on me before.

Those are kind of the big two on my mind. Tuber and charter both seem to have gone by without a lot of prodding. I think charter is ok so far, but I have a bigger question mark about Tuber. I don't really like what he's been posting, but it's a pretty vague feeling - I'd be curious why Glork said he felt better about him (at some point?). Probably needs a reread.

Obviously you have found something about me that made you change your mind.

No one have really called me scummy or made a serious case (or vote) on me, but finding myself completely absent from your scumlist was unexpected. Since I know my own alignment and since Charter have struck me as quite pro-town I'm glad to be out of that list. But I still which you to explain what exactly made me look pro-town.

[Tuberkulos]

I meant that

I

believe that

you

are pro-town.

[Tuberkulos]

vote: EA

[Tuberkulos]

Incog played the best game. I was quite sure that he was town the whole time...

It's funny how I always had a bad feeling about Glork, but couldn't really put a finger on it so I just let it go.

Even though I was absent almost 50% of the game, I really liked to play with experienced players. I actually learned a thing or two.