Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[camn]

Good Morning Rishi. Nice to see you again.

And hello everyone else.

I would like to frontload this.. I just SKIMMED through the 18 pages that have made up day 1.. And I will try and catch up during the impending night phase.
so.. I doubt I feel good about doing much in the way of claiming of voting or anything before night falls.

That said.. my initial impressions were this: (Don't ask for details, cuz I lost my notes)
1. At first (for 12 pages or so), I was really in love with Tarhalindur. . but after all this claiming nonsense I don't know what is going on. I'm going to need to reread him. And whoever said it was right.. that wasn't a breadcrumb.. it was BREAD! (great quote, btw!) I think that even after all that insanity, I believe in him.. . . for now.
2. I don't know WTF is going on with FlaskofPestilence.. can someone explain? 2 people? one account? Could you guys, like, color-code your posts or something?
3. I am against massclaim on Day 1. I need to actually read how we got there.. but for the record, I am against it.
4. Last I checked, D'anna was a royal PITA to everyone, right?

that is all for now. I will try and get my head around this all ASAP. Des suckered me in here with the theme

[camn]

It means, she's on nobodies side but her own.
Boxed by her own kind, but then holds the president hostage.

But I don't know if that relates to the game. I'm just saying.

c

PS.. FoP.. I guess no color coding required. I anticpate having a confusing read on you two, though!

[camn]

Well, as for the game all I know is I'm affiliated with the cylons, which could mean anything :S.

Didn't they box your model, then you started some crazy civil war?

[camn]

Grimmy and camn still owe cylon-claims.

I don't really know what that means.... and I'm not caught up yet. Plus I thought my intentions were clear on my first post.

[camn]

Where do you think D'Anna falls?
Is she the new leader of the Natalie faction?

Cavils faction is obv anti-human, and D'Anna was boxed by Cavil and later killed him, right? So she is against them.

HOWEVER, she kidnapped Roslin.. also a anti-human move, to get access to the five.

BUT they made up in the end... so is D'Anna pro-human?

I might have to watch the last episode again.....

[camn]

...

OK.. I am mostly caught up.

K, I'm a cylon affiliated with the cylons. Do you want a name? I have no idea if I'm town, scum ,or what, just that I don't know anyone elses alignment, and I couldn't really glean much from the wiki. I have no abilities. Thanks.

Name claim, please.

Why FL, and none of the other non-nameclaims??
Why does Tar demand a nameclaim here, and here only?

This slightly bothers me.
But this whole massclaim thing has bothered me.

But I guess I have to play.
To the best of my knowledge, I am not a cylon.

FOS: ELMO

for engineering this massclaim thing so early. I think it tells us much less than we think. . . and gives the scum a lot of targets.
Hopefully it will work out.

And for Clarity.. I

don't

want nameclaims from ANYONE. but It is curious that Tar demanded a nameclaim from FL... and not from any of the others.


Oh. and

UNVOTE: fark

[camn]

Ah, thank you.
It is hard for me to try and keep track of the temporal events when jumping in... especially with these changing deadlines.

[camn]

No-one wants to massclaim right now. All we have done is claim

races

, which we need to know. Why do you say it gives the scum targets?

Look. This requires a lot of speculation.. but the short form is this.

The scum know a lot of things we don't. They know who they are, and who we are. What if the races are a tip off as to who the Power roles are? I have no idea if this is true, but I ALSO don't see how "knowing" everyone's race helps us at ALL at this point.
Speaking of that... how does it help the town? You say we "need to know" but I think I missed the

why

of that. . .

I might feel better about it day 2, since we will at hopefully have

some

indication as to who is killing who... but for now it seems like the scum get more out of this than the town.
I don't play a lot of theme games, so maybe it's normal to have a Day-1 pseudoclaim. . . . .it just makes me nervous.

That is all.
BUT.. it is done now, so I will try not to think about it anymore.

[camn]

I strongly suspect that revealing race does not leak any information that would harm the town. I am not willing to go into this further at present.

Why do you say it gives the scum targets, camn? What do you mean by that?

I think I addressed this lightly in 467.. and it is pure speculation at this point anyway. In my head, I can see setups that may or may not exist where race-claiming could be hurting us. But there really is no discussion here, because it's done. I don't think it SHOULD have been done, but it is.

Oh.. and it is very hard for me to get my head around the idea that there could be scum that don't

know

they are scum! (470)


Now for bed!

[camn]

I really don't get it.

KoC... I am glad we are starting to get some idea of the flavor.... and I totally caught your breadcrumb.

But I don't get all this claiming.

So the scum, let's assume they are all cylons aligned with Cavil (which I am totally just guessing about)... they want to kill us all.
So far, we have a Claimed Gunsmith, AND a Claimed Cop (cylon only) who is demanding more information about people's roles. Both of them are obviously aligned AGAINST Cavil, so they are good candidates for night kill. .
Now.. lets assume Cavil wants the Five. Wants to kill them.. maybe recruit them (speculation).. who knows. Lets say they buckle to this order
"

ALL CYLONS, CLAIM MAKE AND MODEL NOW

."
Then Cavil gets a free shot at them. I don't see how it helps us.. unless one of the scum accidentally CLAIMS SCUM... which I doubt will happen.


...

At this point I am glad that the scum can only kill one of us each night...
And I would like to reiterate. . I am against this claiming business TODAY.

[camn]

I was directed as to which faction I was aligned with, too.
It was not a cylon faction.. It was a specific Colonial faction.. but I don't want to use the "exact" wording here... I was given no information as to the NUMBER of cylon factions. . . And the message also did not rule out the possibility of multiple HUMAN factions.

And Tar.. don't hate on me.. I'm no Centurion!

[camn]

PLUS... If you are breadcrumbing instead of saying it aloud.. and someone DOES pick up on it..... should they just Point it out? Like... just yell and say "hey look! KoC is trying to imply something!"

Maybe everyone GOT your breadcrumb.

PLUS.. I have been meaning to ask this...
KoC.. why did you claim?

[camn]

A certain detail tugs at my mind.....But I am wondering precisely how a centurion would be able to gain information about a humanoid cylon..

A Cylon Raptor did some kind of Iris scan on one of the Final Five. . . maybe it's one of those type deals.

Also, I'm a cylon who wants to join with humans; hopefully that's fairly obvious from Post 398.
(Patrick)

Patrick... why is it obvious in post 398? I don't see it.


Oh, and I am usually against this, but

VOTE: NOLYNCH

a) There is an even number of us. You guys know the odds.
b) We have little idea as to whats happening. We would practically be guessing at this point..
c) I don't even see a good INFO lynch...
d) The deadline is sneaking up on us.
e) I am perfectly willing to switch if someone brings a dynamite case. I might try, but I am still getting a feeling for you maniacs.
f) with all these replacements, it would be like a delayed night start...

[camn]

Im against a no lynch on the principle of it alone. It seems like a waste and gives the scum the first move. Id rather take a chance at lynching someone and learning what we can from there.

I am usually against it, too....

BUT..
a) statistically, a night start is more favorable to the town in a straight 12-person game than a day start. I know there is no reason to think that this is a straight game... but there it is.

b) Learning what? I am all for an info-lynch.. or a good scum-lynch.. but WHO? I am against lynching a claimed power role right now.. but we hardly have time to make a case, lay on some votes, wait for a claim, and assess its validity at this point.

c) the scum's night action will give us SOME info as to who is who, I think. At least as to what teams are actually playing!
Given the amount of replacements in this game.. and the general confusion regarding roles... I am for it this time.

[camn]

Iam... that is a pretty awesome catch.

That, combined with the double #2 claim...
...

FOS: Fark.

It is like, racial-distancing.
Plus he got counterclaimed.
I'm not ready to lynch him just yet... but that IS suspect.

[camn]

Who is saying you are a non-cylon?

You could be Cavil, and fake-claimed #2 because you figure everyone would think Cavil is scum. Or, you could be cylon-aligned-scum-human.. like Balthar or someone.

It's the distancing that is scummy. The details are up to you.

[camn]

Hmm.

Well, now we have day 1 name claims from all the cylon.

Unvote, Vote : Farkinsoup

I want to see a full claim from you.
and I want to get to the bottom of the whole you and Flask both claiming #2.
I know we shouldn't be lynching on claims alone... but I think we can actually get some info from this.
And this:

To be honest camn, I'd rather you lynched me than vote no-lynch, if that's what it comes down to

reads as a classic passive-aggressive scum double-back move.

[camn]

I'm a bit confused by the quick wagon that's formed on Farkshinsoup.

It's only quick because we don't have a lot of time.

@camn and KoC:

Did the both of you ever complete your reads? Were you planning on posting some sort of a mini player by player before entering the night?

No, and no.
I am not going to do anything other than skim the early pages at this point.
I always end up rereading once we start to get info about alignments.. so I will save myself the time.. . .I told Destructor I didn't have time to come in on this game.. but he sucked me in with the Awesome Theme.

Now, regarding Fark.
This claim doesn't set my mind at ease about him.. Roleblocker is a scum role, too.
BUT.. I am generally against lynching claimed power roles day 1.. unless they are particularly scummy

So..

UNVOTE
VOTE: NOLYNCH

I still think it is the smart move.

Regarding the Five.... if the flavor follows the Show.. than ONE of the 5 ended up pretty PRO-cylon (Tori).. and the other 3 were pro-human to varying degrees... with Col Tigh being the most pro-human IMO. So if the game follows the flavor, I would doubt that the 5 are even all on the same team, much less all scum. I mean.. Tori killed Galen's wife. How could they be scum together?
But this is pure speculation at this point. For all we know. . there ARE no Five.

[camn]

wow.

[camn]

Happy Birthday, Fark.

And why, pray tell, did you have to ASK yourself if you knew who the other cylons were?
Did you get SOME names of other players.. but it wasn't indicated if they were cylon?

Me.. I got NO names of anyone... so it was pretty clear that I didn't know who anyone was. I didn't have to ask myself anything.

I don't get it.

[camn]

Jesus. This game gets weirder and weirder.
Destructor better give us a full reveal in the end.

I'm OK with a Grimmy Lynch, if we have to lynch someone.

why?

I will unvote once the claim has been posted.

this is weak, generally.
Also.. at least he isn't claiming a power role.
ALSO.. he IS a hard read.

But, if he has any more claiming to do... now is the time.
I will keep my vote on no-lynch for now, just in case anyone wants to put things off a day

[camn]

...What?

It's simple. Lynch Macavity today. He turns up scum. end of.
Alternatively, lynch me today, find out I am a one-shot day-scanner, then lynch Macavity.
As a role, I have expended my usefulness, and am now essentially another townie.
If I have to die to prove my worth, and Macavity's scum-dom, so be it - my task would be fulfilled.

QFT.

UNVOTE
Vote Macavity

Mac.. do you still insist you are a #6?

c

[camn]

Crap.

It's true.. and I am inclined to Follow Tar's lead, as crazy as he has been, with this talk of abandoning us... BUT... If KoC is lying.. and Mac IS a jailkeeper... does he not die tonight at the Mafia's hands?

Anyway .. here are the outcomes.. as far as I can see.
It seems pretty equivalent to me. Except for option E.

a) KoC is lying.

We lynch Koc,

losing 1 scum. the Scum kill Macavity, we lose a power role. Tomorrow we are down 2 (1PR, 1

scum

)

b) Koc is Lying..

we Lynch Mac

, a power role. The scum kill one of us. Maybe a PR, maybe vanilla. Tomorrow we are down 2 townies. (1PR, 1 townie)... BUT we have a clear lynch tomorrow.

c) Koc is telling the truth...

we lynch Koc

, Losing a Vanilla townie. the scum kill one of us. Maybe a PR, maybe vanilla. Tomorrow we are down 2 townies. (1 vanilla, 1 townie)... BUT we have a clear lynch tomorrow.

d) Koc is telling the truth...

we lynch Mac

, losing scum. the scum kill one of us tonight.. . maybe a PR, maybe not. We wake up tomorrow with 1 scum dead, 1 townie dead.... (1

scum

, 1 townie.)

e) KoC is confused. Maybe insane. Maybe damaged. We lynch a townie. We waste tomorrow lynching a confused townie. We are fracked.

Odds are they both die anyway. If we lynch KoC... and he is lying OR he tells the truth.... Mac is dead by tomorrow night.
So I say we lynch Mac... he has been a less-helpful player in general. And if KoC is telling the truth.. we benefit.

Plus... Athena Shot Natalie.

[camn]

Maybe helpful was the wrong word.

What do you know about #3?

[camn]

Ah.. I take back the 'unhelpful' comment. I was thinking of Grimmy.
Sorry for mixing that up. I have been drinking.

But the rest stands.

c

[camn]

If I can answer for Iam... he just means that there is no reason to keep him alive. His power is spent. There is no RISK of lynching the Cop.

But I am for a Mac Lynch.

c

[camn]

Alright. I have been waiting for today to come back.

I just re-read Mac's posts.. and a couple things stick out.

a) he totally defends the idea of there being two #2s. In fact, he does a lot of Defending of Fark. I know that would be silly for scum to do.. but he does say he is relatively new. Also.. he throws in a FOS of Fark once.. without any kind of real followup later on.

So.. I read on Fark... and I have some questions:

Fark:
1) you said this "I am Number 2, a toaster who is allied with the cylons." Did you insert the word "toaster".. or did you read it?

2) You also mentioned that Mac was "a cylon allied with the cylons"... where did that come from? He never said that... did you maybe read it in your OWN PM?

3) In your last post, where you vote KoC.. you say "This is a damn good fake claim if it is one". How was it a good fake-claim? Specifically. Jailkeeper/godfather?


Also..

FoS andersonw

for not voting yesterday.

[camn]

So.. you area cylon allied with the cylons.
Mac was also a cylon allied with the cylons.

There was indeed a

cylon

mafia.

Hmm..
... but Multiple factions...... and No night kill? That would be fortunate for us.. but I think unlikely, no?

[camn]

Bleh, camn doesn't appear to be dangerous.

In other news, I'm requesting replacement - there's no way I'm going to be able to keep up with this game.

Gods you are infuriating.
I get so happy, and then so angry.. all at once.

[camn]

It's like you didn't want to take a stand. Or be on record for taking a certain position. Thats why.

[camn]

I think that, if we have any other protective roles, we need them to come out now -

FAIL

.

Dear Power Roles: Do Not Claim.

Gods this has been the most claim-happy game ever!

I agree that Fark's block doesn't implicate Rishi... PLUS, I don't really think we need to build on that case right now.
We know who Fark blocked. Eventually the scum will get around to killing him, if he is telling the truth, and then we can look at the SUM of his actions.


I know it is weird ESPECIALLY coming from me...... and maybe it was something in his RL, but Tarlahindur was giving me a weird vibe.
I would like to hear a little from his replacement.. (who is VERY brave, BTW! this is quite a game...)


Also... @Andersonw do YOU believe Fark's claim?

c

[camn]

It wasn't THAT cunning!

But a worthwhile play nonetheless.

Back to andersonw?

[camn]

Is that Elmo?

[camn]

There's a strong possibility that KoC was bussing his buddy.

a "strong" possibility?
On day 1... with no chance for a PR claim later on?

this is wrong on so many levels.

a) Scum can pretty much count on a day-1 mislynch. If you are going to buss... why do it then?

b) The NATURE of KoC's claim pins him down as a vanilla townie later. Then, if it comes down to lynching him on scumminess... he can't even claim his way out of it.

c) the mac-wagon didn't even NEED power-support. If KoC was bussing.. he could have just built a case, crap- or -not, and railroaded Mac. THEN he would have looked just as clean.


On the other hand.. I agree with you regarding andersonw.
Plus, you guys lurking your way to victory that other game has made me angry all over again regarding under-posters.

Thus:

Vote andersonw

a) for pressure
b) for not voting last night, and then not knowing WHY that was suspect
c) only 1 post since ULTIMATE FRISBEE ended?
d) for taking a week to "consider" Elmo's questions.
e) general lurkyness

[camn]

Protective roles should basically NEVER claim.
It wouldn't prove or disprove Rishi's guilt, and would result in the death of the protective role.

And anyway, god knows, maybe the mafia forgot to put in their kill. The whole thing is a thin, thin case. We should be looking for scummyness, not power-role claims.

[camn]

Rishi.. claim or die.

Both for your scumminess and for revenge from last game

[camn]

But if we lynch Rishi.. will it be too late for you?

[camn]

Rishi, could you respond to KoC's post 712?

This.

Regarding 712, since Rishi is so sparse, and to get this game rolling again...I shall give my thoughts.
Now that I look at it again.... I notice that KoC never really answered Rishi's question in 711.

So I will re-phrase:
KoC.. why would it be useful for a Power Role to Claim? A protective role in particular?
You deflected with the counter-claim argument...but let's think it out.

Say there is a Doc. Say he protected someone last night..

@KoC

a) How does this lessen Fark's claim? Fark could easily have RB'ed Rishi-town OR Rishi-scum with OR without a Doc.
b) Does Doc claiming ensure Doc death? Almost always.
c) is his death worth YOUR peace of mind re: Fark??

Please.. answer these questions.

Now normally, if KoC hadn't really proven himself YESTERDAY, I would also be suspecting him because of rolefishing. So Rishi is totally in the right to call out KoC on it, because it is bad play.

Of Course... MAYBE, just MAYBE he is actually VERY clever scum, maybe with a personal axe to grind with Mac? maybe just a Day-1 Bussing kind of guy?
Maybe.

But i doubt it.

So, look... Rishi calling out KoC for fishing is a null-tell. But I am still willing to lynch him. For my previously stated reasons, AND for his SLOW response time this game. He lurked to victory on me once, I won't let that happen again!

But Anderson.. you are still suspect.

@andersonw

What is there in 712 to even respond to?
Why would you stand on such a thin, thin, point?
Do you also want a "counter claim" to Fark? (as if this is an open setup!)

[camn]

One reason.

Kison needs to place his investigation during the day, no?
If night falls before he does it....

Kison: Place a couple random votes on people so I can stop thinking about this!

c

[camn]

OK, then.

anderson, Could you respond to Rishi's 746?

[camn]

anderson asked Rishi a question in 737, which Rishi responded to in 746.. in anderson's next post, many days later, he didn't address it, which means he either didn't READ Rishi's post, or just wasn't persuing the case any further.

Either way, andersonw is At BEST very lazy, and at worst very scummy. Oh, and questions aren't the only thing to respond to!

[camn]

The first part of this still stands, camn - why so interested in keeping Rishi alive?

Im not. I am also not interested in keeping anderson alive.

...
I asked Rishi to respond to KoC's post...
So he did...
How do I address the fact that he responded to KoC? Do I say "thanks" or something?

My point is this.....
You mimic Rishi in this case.
Rishi called out KoC.. and CORRECTLY, I might add.
KoC responded.
then you, out of basically nowhere.. ask Rishi to respond to KoC's response. Did YOU want HIM to say "thanks" or something?
KoC later ADMITTED that it was bad play to ask for the claim.. so the question, (#2) stands... what were YOU thinking calling Rishi out like that? You never responded when he addressed it.
I read it is classic scum distancing.
You see a case on your buddy popping up, so you try and "get in" on the hunt by latching on to KoC's case. the problem is this: is was a poor point. Rishi was CORRECT in calling out KoC for fishing. you picked the wrong point to latch on to.

Now, addressing the content of Rishi's post is a different matter, so do you want me to respond to what Rishi actually said to KoC? In that case, if you accuse me of being lazy for not responding, then everyone else (besides KoC), including you, would be lazy for not responding.
(also, could you answer my two questions from my previous post?)

I don't care what you do. You wanted Rishi to respond to a response. You should be willing to do the same.

[offtopic]And thanks for the sarcasm. It obviously gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling inside. [/sarcasm]

I'm not being sarcastic. I asked you, almost verbatim, to do something you asked someone else to do. You failed to do it.. . because it doesn't make sense. Just like your initial press on Rishi doesn't make sense... you are latching on to someone else's weak case for some reason. Probably scum distancing. Maybe scum faux-hunting on an innocent.

Which is it?

[camn]

How is asking someone to respond to someone's point considered as attacking them?

Did I say it was? More importantly.. WERE YOU? Were you or weren't you attacking Rishi? Do you or don't you think he is scum?

It doesn't matter whether it was a bad point or not. The point (no pun intended) is that KoC responded to Rishi, and Rishi made a post two days later without responding to his post, so I wanted to know what he thought about it.

And I want to know what YOU think about it. But you don't have an opinion, I guess.

Also, "classic scum distancing"? What does that mean? That this has happened before and the person who did it turned out to be scum?

We are playing mafia, right? (now THAT is sarcasm! ) Answer: YES. Scum have bussed their partners before. Scum have seen that other scum were going down, and tried to 'distance' themselves from the person...

I'll get to the rest, and give my thoughts on his post, tomorrow (I do see a rhetorical question in your post, thanks for that).

You are welcome. Though.. I asked three questions, none of which you answered. Here is a fourth.. which question are you ignoring as "rhetorical" and which are you just ignoring?

It would also be good if Rishi could give his opinions on this. Were you planning on making more posts against KoC?

I, too, want Rishi to step up his game here.
And if KoC acts scummy, I will certainly make more posts against him. You and Rishi are acting MUCH more scummy than him right now, though, so I think I will leave him alone for now.
You, however, I will not leave alone.
I ask questions for a reason. Sometimes they have easy answers.... like "yes" or "no". I ask them so that later, if you are scum, you will be forced to keep your positions straight. This is a common technique. When you avoid answering them, it looks scummy to me. Like you UNDERSTAND that what you write now may be used against you later.. and you want to avoid that.

Townies generally don't have this problem. They can answer simple questions easily.. . not worrying about how it might look later on.

So, for clarity, let me sum up my unanswered questions to andersonw:

1) Did YOU want HIM to say "thanks" or something? (re:737)
2) what WERE you thinking calling Rishi out like that? (re:737)
3) Which is it? Distancing or Faux-hunting? (these first 3 all go to the same question..... why did you post 737? What were you thinking? what did you hope to see? )
4) Do you have an opinion on Rishi's response? (you had enough of an opinion to ASK for the response...)
5) IS RISHI SCUM?
6) Why do you find it difficult to answer these questions?


>whew<

[camn]

1. No, I don't know why you would think that (what is the point of this question?)
2. already explained
3. This question is equivalent to "are you scum, or are you scum?". The answer is no (or neither).
(and I already explained why I posted 737).
4. I'll also get to this in another post (not now, though, my parents are yelling at me, and answering this question probably deserves another post anyways)
5. YES I SAID THIS IN POST 715 ALREADY
6. Loaded question (what is the point of this question, too?)

<whew>

God this gets better and better.

So, I just want to pin this down before nightfall..

Tell me if I am getting this wrong.
Anderson.. in #715, you state Rishi is your #1 suspect. You are saying that you thought HE IS SCUM at that time...but you were not attacking him in 737, although that was your NEXT post after calling him your #1 Suspect. In fact, perusing your posts SINCE naming him as your #1, you fail to question him, attack him, analyze his play or really give ANY opinion on him, despite my asking for it over and over.

NOW, you vote (then unvote) Rishi. With basically no reasons.

Is that about accurate? I just want to get it right.

My opinion is that if he WAS your #1 suspect, you sure weren't treating him like one. If you DO think he is scum, then you are VERY nice to scum!
But for now, I just wanted to establish what you think about him. I will be awaiting the rest of your response.




and PS:

Please clarify what you mean (my opinion hasn't changed than in my last few posts)

You have never stated your opinion. If you did, please cite it.

Yes, you implied it by saying I was trying to....

I try not to IMPLY. I state things. Some times I DON'T state them. Your error is in interpretation.

You are saying that my post was "distancing", how exactly?

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Distancing

1. No, I don't know why you would think that (what is the point of this question?)

You used it as an answer to the same question. The point was to see if it made any sense as an answer. You seem to think it doesn't... yet you used it. Filed for later.

6. Loaded question (what is the point of this question, too?)

So what if it is loaded? It is very relevant. And unanswered still. The point, as I explained before, is to see what you will say. Not answering is an answer, too.

[camn]

Yay!

[camn]

PS... See my sig.

[camn]

at airport.
Returning home presently.
Reread required.
Slighty suspect Kison.
@anderson . .. I start each day fresh. Pls rephrase questions in light of new information.
I oppose massclaim.
Scumhunting abilities exist.

Will read soon.

[camn]

Okay, sure.
Was my voting, then unvoting of Rishi scummy?
Do you still think I was distancing from Rishi, mainly because I asked him to respond to KoCs post?

It was nice to see you finally give a real opinion on Rishi's play in 783. before that I only saw Information, not Analysis OR personal opinions.
The fact that it took so long is a little suspect. Rishi's lynch was inevitable at that point... you would have looked a lot better in my eyes if you would have given CLEAR opinions as to Rishi's guilt or innocence earlier on.

Some new questions:
Do you still want to lynch me? Why?
Also, what do you think of the no kill last night?

I think you are a good lynch for today, even regardless of your scummy play yesterday.
If you are innocent, it goes to the existence of another roleblocker or protective role, WITHOUT actually exposing that role. That info is good, because THAT line of discussion can be put to rest. If you are guilty.. then diescumdie. Either way I see it as good for the town. We could use a little clarity as to Fark's effectiveness, or lack thereof.... but I don't want any more claims than we already have.

I think the scum were blocked or their target protected. OR they never logged on, and we have lurker-scum.
An intentional no-kill to force a mislynch on anderson? Inconceivable. they could have just killed anderson.
Of course.. there could be no scum. Maybe ALL of us are either Fleet-aligned, or Cylon-aligned, and whoever kills the other first wins. In which case there are 4 more cylons for us to kill Just a thought.

ALSO...
I also am open to the idea that Kison is scum, working off a BRILLIANT fake-claim of Tarlahindur's. Or maybe it is a real-claim, only he is a scum-aligned investigator.
I also could question Kison's sanity, based on his character claim.
At this point, I would also be open to a Kison lynch.. but I don't have a lot of evidence on him... just a feeling, really. Like, the late choice of targets kind of sticks to me. Like he wasn't playing his fake-claim correctly. But I don't think he is the best choice for today.

ALSO...
just for thought's sake.
if we are AS claimed...
1 cop (kison)
1 1-shot name-cop (KoC)
1 Roleblocker (fark)
and NO others.... = andersonGODFATHER-SCUM (or Kison insane).
This would be a balanced game, IMO.

HOWEVER.. if you add in ANOTHER protective/blocking role...
then anderson maybe NOT scum...
BUT... you have a very STRONG town. Overbalanced for 3 scum, IMO. (unless the scum were very powerful, which we don't know)
In any case I would suspect MORE scum, than just 3.. in which case we should STILL be conservative, and not get too confident, even though we are clearly ahead of the game.

hmm..

those are my thoughts for tonight. I have finals this week.. but I will try and stay up-to-date.

c

[camn]

I also could question Kison's sanity, based on his character claim.

That would make you scum, you realize, right?

No, it would make his results unreliable.
But yes, I realize he has a "harmless" verdict on me.

Also.. what you say is true. I hadn't thought it through totally, but Both our lynches have fake-claimed.. so they obviously KNEW they were scum.....

hmm. That would be a cool setup, though!

[camn]

I can't think of any holes in the plan, really.

Except.. I can't conceive of scum choosing no-kill intentionally. . especially to "frame" a townie for a mislynch.
So either we blocked scum, or they accidentally no-killed. (like, lurked through the night deadline). . in which case we would just be giving them a do-over.

But I am OK with that. I like to beat scum fair and square, not just because they forgot to send in their night choice.
It gets us information no matter what happens... and we ARE ahead of the game...

I'll start

VOTE NO LYNCH

[camn]

Open question:

why would scum NOKILL to frame anderson?
Why not just kill anderson? Like, at night?

where is the logic?


ps..

...
Also, Im sure of one other person in this game, but that one shall remain unmentioned. ...

I vote AGAINST lynching anderson.
Ill leave it to the rest of you to put the info from what little posts I made to put two and two together.

Pretty bold claim..
Care to back it up at all?

[camn]

p.s. The scum No Killed with the idea of getting anderson lynched.

WHY????

Why is this true?

Why not just kill anderson last night?
anderson would be dead.. and we would be here wondering who to lynch?

PLEASE spell it out for me!

[camn]

After preview: camn, getting a protown player lynched by the town is better than nightkilling them.

Patrick.

why?

[camn]

someone needs to die for all this bass-ackwards logic....so

UNVOTE

Plus, if anderson is clear, which I am inclined to believe, due to the breadcrumbs (unless they are BOTH scum) then the plan is off.

For clarity...
@both anderson and Grimmy... are you two masons together?? I don't like all these 'hints'. and don't say who.. but are there just the two of you?

also.. if so, then why...

I also like the idea.

do you like the idea of no-lynching and blocking anderson? that means a free townie death, and no additional info to you...

[camn]

Grimmy, explain yourself. And hard-claim, too, please.

[camn]

Anderson, too.. hard-claim please.

[camn]

Hard claims from both, pls.
Today.. before night falls.

Plus, just for fun,

VOTE Flask of Pestilence

a) this 2-person business is starting to throw off my read. I am a very instinct-driven player.. and it's bogus.
b) Honestly, the explanation for this 'theoretical' frame-job of anderson.... it is like he was speaking Croatian. So, a vote for anti-logic. Especially in the light of him usually having real logic.
c) this is the real kicker.. I get the read that Incog is town, and Patrick is scum. Then my head explodes. Then it just occurred to me.. what if Patrick IS scum, and lied to Incog about their role? Then my head explodes.

[camn]

Vote andersonw

until this shiv gets sorted out.

And check it... now we know there are at least 3 factions. the Cylon Mafia. The Cylons. and the Fleet. I don't know if the cylons want us humans dead or not.... but I wouldn't put it past them!

Though KoC is certainly not playing that way.

[camn]

KoC.. I'm not pushing it. I meant affiliation, I guess, not faction.
You are certainly not playing anti-human, and are practically a confirmed cylon... so I don't think it is human vs. cylon game. At least I dont think that right NOW.

Now.. regarding Grimmy. I think a full-claim is in order from him.

BUT.. not to defend him, but is a Day-kill Scum common? I have never seen one. So obviously, I say lynch his partner. He is playing scummier anyway.

Anderson... you realize you almost certainly must die now, right? I think a full claim from you would be reasonable at this time.
Especially.. what do you know about grimmy? are you ANY kind of partners with him?
For the record, I am thinking Grimmy-anderson love pair, for obvious thematic reasons. One is scum?.. but they are maybe suicide-pact style?

And one last thing... Elephant in the room... Yet another night without a kill?

[camn]

c) this is the real kicker.. I get the read that Incog is town, and Patrick is scum. Then my head explodes. Then it just occurred to me.. what if Patrick IS scum, and lied to Incog about their role? Then my head explodes.

<3 This made my day. I'm townier than Patrick! Patrick, of course, was not amused. lol.

Why was he not amused? Patrick would move up a few notches in my book for pulling off that stunt.

He would of course have to PRETEND to be unamused in order to continue the charade.

Duh.

Seriously, though.. it would be the greatest move ever.
I sometimes don't even read my PMs for the first few pages.. just to make sure I give an authentic townie-read.
Just imagine... Patrick deletes the PM... then fake-claims to Incog IN REAL LIFE, Incog then plays as an unbiased townie... THROWING OFF MY INSTINCTS!

If both Grimmy and Anderson flip town (talk about UNLIKELY!), I could go for a Flask lynch just on principle.

[camn]

SO you knew beforehand that Grimmy was Sharon Agathon? And you guys have been talking at night this whole time?
And Grimmy involved you in a fake-claim?

And you don't think any of this is scummy?

Grimmy.. your turn. Whats your deal?

[camn]

I'm OK with a Grimmy lynch.

But he has some explaining to do first.

However.. totally Independent of Grimmy.. Anderson is mega-scummy. The only reason he was off the hook yesterday is because of Grimmy's claim, which is apparently bogus.
Anderson's explanation is mega-weak. It reads like scum of a love-pair that tried to latch on to their partner's innocent verdict.
I think Grimmy surprised anderson just like the rest of us... and I welcome his explanation of his choice. BUT if ONE of those guys is scum.. it's anderson. Probably they both are.

IMO they both should hang.

[camn]

Well.

I guess I better head this one off at the pass.

I lied about being human.
I am a cylon.

Any questions?

[camn]

Because I had a good reason for it.

[camn]

Because I had a good reason for it!

[camn]

Hmm. I can't see my posts for some reason...

Any OTHER questions?

[camn]

I feared being night-killed if I revealed myself.
I am a cylon, but my allegiance is to the Colonial Fleet.

[camn]

OK.

I will full claim now.
I was afraid to day 1 for obvious reasons.. and TBH, I am afraid to now.

BUT.. I am kind of glad my hand has been forced.. though this is only going to make this game stranger. I will stick to factual information in this post, and save analysis for later.

I am one of the Five.
I am Samuel Anders, which I breadcrumbed with my first post.
I AM affiliated with the fleet. I received no indication that I was into "unification". My place is with the Fleet.
I am a Jailkeeper, though that wasn't what my PM called it. That is I roleblock and protect.

Now for the weird part.

I have detained Tarlahindur/Kison exclusively every night, this entire game.

Any more questions?

c

[camn]

Forbidden.... nice of you to join us.
There was no Oops about it.

I am one of the Five. As far as I know, both cylons AND Humans wanted me dead. I was WAY against claiming day 1 because I didn't know anything about anyone's motives..
As for nothing making sense... What doesn't make sense? I jump into a game, I have a protective power role, and a thematically significant character.. and I don't want to claim it? What doesn't make sense about that?

@Flask... this is a closed setup, and I just came out of a game where there was 2 of everything. It seemed plausible. His wording was also kind of consistent with the wording in my PM.. so it was still plausible.

And anderson.. I have put a LOT of thought into that question. I could only conclude that:

a) he is scum. Which I don't think is consistent with his play.. or
b) it being a DAY choice.. it avoids my NIGHT block.


NOW.. everyone voting me... answer me this:
Would I really FAKE-claim that I BLOCKED out investigator.... who happens to have an innocent on me?

I think not.

But I have been trying to lay out that something was screwy about Kison's investigations for a while.

[camn]

Camn, what is the flavor behind your role? Specifically, why is Anders a jail keeper?

Why did you do this when you should have known MacavityLock was lying?

The Flavor is, I learned during my days with the resistance how to detain people.

And re: mac...
a) the setup is closed. I just played a game with 2 of every role. I don't rule out doubles. There was no "knowing" he was lying.
BUT...
b) Even if it had been an OPEN setup.. what do I do, counter-claim Jailkeeper? Why not just kill myself? Counter claiming a protective role is what scum WANT you to do. they want to figure out who is who, so as to kill them.

That is why me claiming was a bad idea then, and it is probably bad now.
I think I have saved at least 1, maybe 2 nightkills by protecting Kison... but now that is over. Unless I can figure out the scum, and block them.. I will be a prime target tonight.

And Elmo.. re: "half the game" claiming cylon... I could see a name-claim coming, and I didn't want to claim one of the Final Five. I figured fake-claiming Human was safer than fake-claiming a different cylon model.

And it was. I lived this long. I think either my protection or my roleblocking has been successful. We are way ahead. Kill me if you have to, but I did the right thing.

[camn]

....
Here's another...

It's true..

and I am inclined to Follow Tar's lead, as crazy as he has been, with this talk of abandoning us..

. BUT... If KoC is lying.. and Mac IS a jailkeeper... does he not die tonight at the Mafia's hands?

Here you acknowledge the possibility of Macavity's claim being true.....

Oh, PS.. it is funny you posted this.

this was me breadcrumbing my identity AGAIN. It is totally dependent on thematic knowledge... but there it is.

[camn]

it works thematically... The original Sharon got "activated" so to speak, and put the gun to Adama, right?

Of course, she died for it IIRC.

unvote

I need to reread. I kind of believe Grimmy.

Now, regarding me ...
It doesnt matter if you agree or not with me fake-claiming human. It matters if you believe me NOW.
It turned out, did it not, that people demanded name claims of cylons? I wanted to avoid being a part of that, and I was successful!! Plus I am rather convinced that I saved lives doing it. I do admit that I feel bad that Iamuser investigated me so much.... But i can't change that now.

Anyway, once again, kill me if you want, ESPECILLY if you want a dead townie power role.

[camn]

And for that reason, I suggest we lynch the lying camn. Breadcrumbing on thematic knowledge? Why? WHy not just crumb the role normally?

Because I wanted to crumb my NAME, not my role. And the name comes from the flavor, and I actually am totally in to the flavor! That why I joined this game.

For those of you who don't know, Anders (me) and Starbuck (kison), are actually married... though our relationship is incredibly strained by her insanity:) I never stop loving her, though....

She did say she would kill me if she ever found out I was a cylon, though.

[camn]

Alright.... hmm. I tend to Believe you.
Day-killing Fark.. and I know this sounds dumb, but it is too scummy to be scummy. No one would do it.

HOWEVER.. if that clears you and anderson... then we have a pretty tight pool to find scum.:

Clear, IMO:

camn

- obvtown

andersonw

- clear via Grimmy mason claim

Grimmy

- too scummy to be scum

Knight of Cydonia

- Killed scum without provocation day 1

iamausername

- caught my lie

Kison

- too outrageous a claim to be fake.

NOT clear, IMO:

forbiddanlight

- claimed D'Anna

Flask of Pestilence

- Claims Leoben

Elmo

- claims unnamed Human.

Of those last 3, I think :

forbiddan

has been slipping under the radar. Plus Mac laid a vote on her day 1..

FOP

I think is town.

Elmo

.. unknown

[camn]

Alright.... hmm. I tend to Believe you.
Day-killing Fark.. and I know this sounds dumb, but it is too scummy to be scummy. No one would do it.

HOWEVER.. if that clears you and anderson... then we have a pretty tight pool to find scum.:

Clear, IMO:

camn

- obvtown

andersonw

- clear via Grimmy mason claim

Grimmy

- too scummy to be scum

Knight of Cydonia

- Killed scum without provocation day 1

iamausername

- caught my lie

Kison

- too outrageous a claim to be fake.

NOT clear, IMO:

forbiddanlight

- claimed D'Anna

Flask of Pestilence

- Claims Leoben

Elmo

- claims unnamed Human.

Of those last 3, I think :

forbiddan

has been slipping under the radar. Plus Mac laid a vote on her day 1..

FOP

I think is town.

Elmo

.. unknown

[camn]

Sorry for the double. I am experiencing network problems!

[camn]

Thematically, Starbuck acted very irrationally, and totally had some inexplicable stories... But she turned out to be right in the end.

[camn]

look, to me, macs claim was either true, or a trap. Either way, reacting to it was not necessary.
One of my main moves in an OPEN setup is to fake-claim Doc when I am busted as scum (i know, that couod be now!)knowing that whoever reacts the most is the REAL Doc.
And trust me, I'm not falling for my own tricks!

But seriously. .. Early shit aside, do you believe my claim?
Me protecting Kison goes a long way to explaining the lack of night kills.

Night 1- fark blocks Rishi's kill.
Night 2- I protect Kison's life
Night 3- for some reason I save Kison again. Maybe scum wasnt paying attention, and they thought Fark was the only protective role? Maybe they thought the quick kill would catch me off guard?

I think the first one. I think Forbidden wasn't paying attention. She thought that, with Fark dead, Kison was fair game. Lucky us.

[camn]

I've fallen behind a bit.

camn, if you're telling the truth about your role, you have the ability to both protect

and

roleblock people. As far as I can tell, you've only mentioned that you find it odd that Kison was still able to get investigation results. You also mentioned that the scum might have been targeting him during the night while you were protecting him. Why have you never seemed to consider the fact that Kison could be scum and that you might have been preventing his kills during the night?

- Incog

You ARE getting behind.
I have repeatedly voiced suspicion of Kison, most recently in 912.

And anderson.. I have put a LOT of thought into that question. I could only conclude that:

a)

he is scum.

Which I don't think is consistent with his play.. or
b) it being a DAY choice.. it avoids my NIGHT block.

[camn]

Now... down to biz.

I was thinking about you guys in the shower.. and I decided on a plan.

Let me know if you see any problems with it.

OK.. Lets ASSUME for now that Kison is town, and NOT naive... and that the following holds true (note change in andersons clear-ness):

Clear, IMO:

camn

- obvtown

Grimmy

- too scummy to be scum

Knight of Cydonia

- Killed scum without provocation day 1

iamausername

- caught my lie

Kison

- too outrageous a claim to be fake.

KIND of clear

andersonw

- clear via Grimmy mason claim (but grimmy may be naive)

NOT clear, IMO:

forbiddanlight

- claimed D'Anna

Flask of Pestilence

- Claims Leoben

Elmo

- claims unnamed Human.

OK..

So.. we have 3 not clear.
I say we Lynch Forbiddan. If she is the last scum, we win. if NOT...
Then, tonight, I block Elmo (I am giving up on protection, since I can't protect myself!)
and Kison investigates Flask of Pestilence.

If someone dies, that clears Elmo.
If NO ONE dies, we lynch Elmo.
If KISON dies, we lynch Flask.
If I die, then we have Kison's invesigation to guide us.
If Flask is guilty, we lynch him. If NOT, we lynch anderson.

Any holes?

[camn]

it almost seems like that scenario I think Fark was thinking about yesterday with anderson - how do we know you're not the last scum (assuming 3 scum, which would be normal for a game this size), and you won't just withhold your kill to make Elmo look like scum?

This still makes ZERO SENSE to me.
So.. say I am scum. Say we go through with my plan. If I want Elmo dead.. why don't I just nightkill him? the Lynch is the weapon of the TOWN... I don't need to use it if I am scum. I can just kill.
It is like WIFOM.. only there is just 1 glass of wine.

However,

I am still of the opinion that the way forward involves less claim analysis and more scumhunting. In that vein, let's wagon

vote forbiddanlight

again.

I am very supportive of this.

VOTE FORBIDDANLIGHT

For ignoring my questions in Post 912.
And for kidnapping the president.

c

[camn]

Show me your case on me, Forbiddan.

Especially after you writing this:

And before you say "DEFEND YOURSELF ZOMG", give me something to defend. You appear to be attempting a CL situation. I'm unconfirmed. So go for it.

You should be giving ME something to defend. All you ever said was " None of that makes sense."
How doesn't it make sense?
I have an innocent verdict.
I Have claimed a pro-town power role.

Yet you want to lynch me. Why?
How can I clear things up for you?



You on the other hand, have not been incredibly helpful to the town. If you ARE telling the truth, you are vanilla, and "have no abilities" which makes a mislynch of YOU less costly than a mislynch of ME.

Um...wow. Two no kill nights? I'm kinda wondering if there is some WIFOM this time about a roleblock. Regardless, I guess we ask again who got roleblocked?

This is an interesting post.
It was the first post of the day, which is scumtell #17 in the camn book of scumtells.
It also has you asking who Fark blocked, even though he had already told us his intentions. I think you were surprised that Kison lived though the night.

[camn]

Thats what I have been doing all game.

But it is defeated now that I am exposed.
Now I have to block scum.

Or I can WIFOM blocking scum, and actually protect Kison
Who will they kill first?

[camn]

Let's see, you lied. Not only that, but you lied in a way that could have been harmful to the town.

How was it harmful to the town?
Need I point out that we have had NO nightkills, and NO mislynches.

So with the exception of Grimmy's daykill.. we are playing a perfect game. Thus one could argue that, whatever lie I told, it didn't hurt us.

But please.. explain how it was harmful.

[camn]

Also, a question: You said you claimed human because you thought we were heading for a nameclaim or similar. What exactly did you plan to do once we hit that point?

I didn't have a solid plan. I had just subbed in!
I would have resisted a full-scale name claim even more than I resisted all the claiming we did. But I definitely anticipated more pressure on cylons.

And look.. I'm not arguing about right or wrong here. I am arguing about EFFECTIVE versus INEFFECTIVE.

the fact is, what I did

worked

.
I avoided name claiming.
I avoided being night killed
I definitely think I stopped at least 1, if not 2 night kills.

If you guys want to lynch me for that, go ahead. I think the benefit that we gained from it far outweighed the cost. That is, Iam's investigations, and wasting all this time today.

And only scum should fake-claim all the way. Or, indeed, fake part-claim.

This is so untrue.
If for some INSANE reason, everyone is demanding claims on day 1... should a Doc claim? ever? And in the presence of a Claimed Cop?? This is a serious question.
Because I think not. I obviously think that here is a place for fake-claiming as town. ESPECIALLY a game like this one. (which I love, btw. Des- you rock!)
I think the GOOD play for a Doc is to fake-claim, and protect the Cop. Add on a thematic twist that would make you a CLEAR target, and I choose fake-claim.

Finally

Why are you assuming ForbiddanLight is scum?

Because Forbiddan-scum makes sense to me in light of the events of the game. Or maybe, Forbiddan isn't scum. In which case, i don't really have a better suspect.
Do you? Do you have a better plan than the one I laid out earlier?

I think you guys need to make up your mind on ME pretty soon. If you think I am scum, then lynch me. If NOT, lets get on with winning this game, OK?

[camn]

Come on, forbiddan. That is hardly an answer.

How did I hurt the town? By wasting investigations? Did Kison hurt the town too? He was also investigated...

[camn]

You still aren't answering.

Even me getting lynched would be a price I am willing to pay for accomplishing what I listed above. Being lynched now is better than being NK'd Night 1. Better than Kison/Tar getting NK'd night 1. So MY goals were fulfilled by my claim.

But you have yet to point out how it is "harmful".
You keep NOT answering.. and just saying, essentially, 'diescumdie'. Which is pretty typical when you have no case, I think.

Now I will add another question... an easy one, I think.
Do you believe I am the character I say I am?

I know you aren't into the Flavor of this game.. but

I am

. That is why I joined it, and it shapes ALL of my actions and decisions so far. So to understand, you have to take the flavor into account. My fake claim, my breadcrumbs, and my role... they all tie into the thematic elements of my character.
In my PM it tells me that I remember my whole life of being Human, and that I have no place with the cylon. I am not confused as to what I am, but claiming Human is more indicative of my true alignment than claiming cylon. I thought I was human my entire life, I am married to a human (the one I have spent the game protecting), and my loyalty is to the Colonial Fleet.

[camn]

still no answer, huh? A lot of speculation as to what might have happened.... But you can't point out how it was "harmful".

In fact, your "protips" seem to be saying that if I had claimed cylon, all the good things that happened STILL would have happened.
That doesn't look harmful!

Anyway, Kison and anderson (when you get back), you guys still happy with your votes?
And everyone not voting... Any reason for that?

[camn]

how would a player by player from you be harmful?

Since you cant say why my claim was

[camn]

we can afford it, I think.
If i were the last scum, and you actually had a case, you could always lynch me later. We have a LONG way till Lylo.

So once again, not 'harmful'.
Whats with the scare tactics?

[camn]

Here's a question for you.

As scum, why would I claim that I had roleblocked the guy who cleared me?
All WIFOM aside, why choose HIM? It would be, maybe, the worst idea ever...

[camn]

As scum, why would I claim that I had roleblocked the guy who cleared me?
All WIFOM aside, why choose HIM? It would be, maybe, the worst idea ever...

Well, you lied once. Who's to say you actually did.

Um... Maybe you misunderstand my question. It is an observable fact that I claim to have blocked Kison.
Why would I make that claim as scum?

Or maybe its just another question you refuse to answer.

[camn]

Please, Iam, for your own meta.. come back and reread this post when I flip town.
I think it will be beneficial to you.

If you can organize your thoughts better, I would love to address your points. It looks like you might have half a case buried in there! But I really don't think it matters.
I think we can win DESPITE mislynching me. Mostly because of all the benefit that I achieved with my claim.

But I am pretty useless now....so Lynch me.


I will tell you, though.. I am growing weary of the tone these so-called cases have taken....
It is just a game guys. You don't need to get so worked up.
And sarcasm is simply tiresome. Lets get back to logic and discussion, please.


Now, re: case #1.
I didn't know you existed as an investigator. So I apologize.
And I admit.. this DISTRACTION from real scum IS harmful.

However.. from MY perspective.. in case #2.. I die early. Kison dies early.
We end up here, with 2 scum dead, plus Kison and myself. Given, that is a worst case scenario.. but that is what we avoided, from my POV.

Thus, even now, I don't see #1 as more harmful.
And at the time of my claim... It was certainly less harmful. Plus a risk I was willing to take.

So NOW a question for you, AND forbiddan.

If claiming cylon was so NEUTRAL, so SAFE.... then, if I were scum, why would I have avoided it?

This is a serious question.

c

[camn]

OK.. I'll try to address a couple points!

And if the entire case I had on camn was this, I would not even be considering a vote change until camn is dead. There is absolutely no reason that a townie should lie here. None.

Why would scum do it?

Show me some potential setups where the race-claim would have hurt us. Tell me why you didn't explain these thoughts and refuse to claim, rather than just straight up lying about your claim. MAKE ME BELIEVE.

For instance. If it is cylon-scum vs. human+the final five, with the Five being power roles.
Thus the town gets no info from knowing race, yet the cylon know who the Five are, and thus who the PRs are.
Now.. this implies a lot of setup-knowledge on the part of the scum.... but I wouldn't have put it past Des to make it that way.
And refusing to claim on this ground would have exposed me to the scum just as well as claiming.

point #93: prior to my claim, camn spent the whole of D4 trying to get Grimmy and anderson lynched (either or, she doesn't care which) for a significant period of D4. This is not a pro-town activity.

Actually, It was Grimmy's explanation that changed my mind on them. Not everything is about you .. And how is it anti-town to push lynches on people you think are scum?
I actually think pushing lynches is pretty townie behavior.

Ohmygawd, how much is camn overplaying the "I don't understand why the scum.....

I'm not playing anything. It STILL doesn't make sense to me. When I am scum, I kill people.

This is not relevant to camn's scumminess in this game, but camn, this is lame as hell and you should stop doing it.

Why? It improves my game, and throws off my meta.

OK, besides "involved you in a fakeclaim" (which... a) when did that even happen? and b) FAKE CLAIMS ARE SCUMMY, YOU SAY? OH MY.), why should anderson see any of this as scummy? Because it sure sounds like pretty normal mason behaviour to me

ME TOO!... but I would have

loved

to see anderson say that. This game is ABOUT using words to get people to reveal themselves.. whether you are town or scum. This sometimes means saying what you mean.. and sometimes not.
And are YOU saying fakeclaims are scummy?
Because you reminded me.. I am not the first person this game to admit to a fake claim...

[camn]

@Iam ... Here anderson denies the mason claim.
And that was an interesting read on strategy! Thank you for the link.

Now.. I think we are kind of deadlocked here until we get the rest of our players back.
That said, I will lay out my thought for THEM.. just in case they don't want to sort through it all.

a) My #1 scum pick = Forbiddan.
b) my strategy for win = investigate/lynch/block Forbiddan, Elmo, FOP and maybe anderson.

Now.. I am willing to lynch someone other than Forbiddan, because I can just block her at night. Assuming there is only one scum, that should stop the nightkill (either by blocking her or by WIFOM?)... and buy us more investigations.

I propose we do that. Lynch one of [Forbiddan, Elmo, FOP], block one, and investigate one.

Then tomorrow, we can look at the results, and have a pretty good idea of win.
I understand it isn't a watertight plan..... but it is a plan. I am open to other plans....

[camn]

If I live today, should I protect Kison, or block someone?
If I block, I might live, but WIFOM everywhere.

If I protect Kison.. he lives for sure.. but I maybe die.

Which Is better? I am leaning toward protecting again... though I would like to live through the night!

[camn]

@ flask

I thought a about Kison(well, Tar) vs. Fark, but Fark claimed RB, not protective... so there was no way for Fark to protect Kison/Tar FOR SURE.. so I saw Tarlahindur as the #1 target. Of course, it turns out Fark nailed scum on N1.
Anyway, I figured I would protect him ONCE (N1), which would save us the nightkill BUT let the scum know there was a protective role... THEN I would protect someone else.. with the idea that:
a) like you said, scum would no longer target him, esp. knowing he had Doc protection, and
b) I would let him actually INVESTIGATE (D1 I assumed I would be RB'ing him, too!)

HOWEVER.. when his investigation actually WORKED,, and Fark seemed to have blocked scum, I thought I would do it AGAIN. (N2) I was also very confused when the verdict came back on me. I was almost convinced Kison/Tar was scum at that point, but I don't think that now. But THEN, I figured.. if he IS scum, I should block him. If he ISN'T, then my protection was working!

THEN.. for N3.. after the daykill, I figured I would stick with it... I figured, why stop now. If anderson was scum, he would think Fark had been his only problem... and go for Kison. The lack of a N3 kill is partly why I was/am so suspicious of anderson.
I was also mildly considering that KISON was scum N3.. and I was blocking him.

That was my thinking for my choice of Kison.

And Incog, your analysis is incredibly accurate regarding my posts. I wasn't intentionally breadcrumbing, but absolutely was thinking that Fark's block could easily have been irrelevant. But then Rishi started playing a little scummier... so that helped.
You can see I actually expressed that, plus my suspicions of Kison.

And you are right... this would have been an EPIC setup if I am fake-claiming NOW.
But If I am THAT GOOD...
why would I choose a role that was already fake-claimed..
and say that I blocked the guy that is clearing me?

I'm not that good. Thus, I must be telling the truth now.

[camn]

Maybe.

In my mind, since the TARGET of a RB is not protected.. they aren't protecting.
Plus, a RB can stop investigations or other non-killing abilities, .... so at best they aren't STRICTLY protective.

[camn]

So, Flask...

What do you think of Forbiddan?

I was looking at my notes, and she is the only one who has claimed Vanilla, IIRC. (388)..
Though in that post she uses the exact wording that Fark's reveal had.... which goes to her innocence.

But this seems interesting because there are SO MANY claimed PRs, that I wouldn't be surprised if there WERE no vanilla roles. however... not everyone has claimed.. so that is still unknown.

Also, here is a fun bit of ancient history...

I still wanna lynch elmo, but if deadline approaches (since it got extended), I'll accept a Flask of Pestilence lynch.

[camn]

maybe he thought that he was defeating it by giving the scum a day-kill?
I don't know.
Kison having successful investigations has been disturbing to me all game.

What should we do, then? Where is the scum?
If it's not Forbiddan... Is it Kison?
I Could just keep blocking him.

If Kison IS scum, Do we trust his investigations?
I almost think yes, because giving a true innocent wins that person over to his side. It would explain the result on Grimmy, too.

But that is a pretty outrageous fake-claim!

[camn]

Elmo, you are assuming 1 remaining scum.
But I think that is a fair assumption.

And I would like to hear something resembling a plan from Forbiddan.
Assume you lynch me. Also assume the game goes on after that, either because I flip town, or there is another scum. (And I assure you one of those is true.)

Then what do you propose? Do you have any kind of plan past your incredible tunnel vision on me?
Because I do. And Elmo does. I bet Flask does, too.

And can people get off vacation, dang! It feels like endgame, but there are still 9 alive!

[camn]

I just get started on New Years.

But yes.. Lets play!

[camn]

forbiddan, what are your thoughts on Andersonw?

[camn]

who is your second pick?

[camn]

what if you get lynched? Will we have to go on without your analysis?

[camn]

Still here, still want camn dead.

If camn's not the last scum, then I think has to be Elmo, just because I'm convinced that everyone else is town for one reason or another. But seriously, it's camn.

T-t-tunnelvision! T-t-tunnelvision! (to me, to you)

I will expect a sweet, heartfelt apology when this game is over!

[camn]

let him stay!
Grimmy, while you are here... Should we lynch Forbiddan?
What if she flips town, or isn't the last scum?

Then what should we do?

[camn]

I think looking at anderson might be good. He strikes me as scummy... But there is the Grimmy thing.
I think I will protect you tonight, so you should be able to get another investigation in.
This will probably be your last one, though.. So make it count!

[camn]

I don't think it was ever revealed WHO did the actual activation of Sharon Valeri. She just shot him one day.

[camn]

sounds good.
Though I bet I will be killed tonight... So Kison should pick wisely.

[camn]

that he is assuming you are town?
In reality, we just win, cuz you are scum?

[camn]

Plus.. I don't think he is assuming you are town.

He is just making a contingency plan.. just in case.
No one can be 100% sure about scum at this point, I think.... except you and Iamusername, apparently.. . so we plan for the ifs.

[camn]

I have a question: If iamausername didn't call you out, would you still have told the truth if/when you claimed?

I had contingency planned on coming clean eventually, which is why I breadcrumbed my identity... but my goal was to avoid claiming up until either victory or death. I probably put too much significance on being one of the Five, probably because they are the CENTRAL MYSTERY of the actual show.
Who knows how much carry over there is, though.

I also thought we would get a better look at who the teams actually are. But given no nightkills, it is STILL very ambiguous to me. for instance, there has been no mod-mention of the Fleet-alignment... So I still feel very exposed.

[camn]

You are SO not helping your case.

[camn]

It wont end with my death either.

But say we are both telling the truth.....
at LEAST I am trying to be helpful.

You really aren't.

I wish you would suddenly start helping. But I am town, and your inability to consider that as a possibility makes you pretty useless.
So, no. You don't HAVE to.. but it would be nice.

[camn]

Yeah, it would be nice if I brought up a stronger case on someone else, wouldn't it?

It would.

You are my #1 suspect, but I am by no means UTTERLY convinced of your guilt. I agree with FOP and Iamusername that your claim was believable.

However, I DON'T have a stronger suspect. Plus, sadly, the rest of your play has been poor.

If you do indeed have a strong case on someone, I would like to see it. It might move my vote, if it was compelling.
Plus, if you are either lynched or nightkilled, the town would certainly be well-served by having your thoughts available, regardless of your alignment.


PREVIEW EDIT:

I'll probably end up posting it anyway soon.

Very good.

Well, I've been saying that myself, but apparently no one wants to listen.

Why don't you vote no-lynch then?

[camn]

Further, the idea of me being nightkilled is laughable at best.

Possibly.

But I have been thinking...
Your tunnel vision on me has ironically started to sway me into thinking that you AREN'T scum.

why?

because say I get lynched, or I get nightkilled... either way, I am revealed as town. If you ARE scum.. you know that will happen.. and you know you would look bad because of it.

SO the question is, would scum, possibly the FINAL scum, behave as you have been behaving?

My gut says no.
Of course, it could be that you are mad at me.
Or that you think you can get away with it because of Iam's results.

But what would scum do right now?
If we are both town, I think they lurk today. Let us kill each other.

So lets talk for a moment.. given you and I are town... who is the scum?
I would think anderson.. but I might just have a grudge.
Flask? Elmo?

[camn]

Kison, if I protect/block you for 4 more nights, with no nightkills, and no guilties.... It means YOU are scum, not me!!

[camn]

Kison, if I protect/block you for 4 more nights, with no nightkills, and no guilties.... It means YOU are scum, not me!!

It would not guarantee either of us is scum from anyone's perspective, but from mine it would significantly raise the probability of you being scum, simply by process of elimination and the false claim.

So, why lynch me? Would it not make more sense to no lynch? But, I finally understand why you don't want camn dead.

I don't know. Maybe. If Camn is town and she does die, then that would limit the number of investigations I will get in. Lynching would at least narrow down the pool.

I can't imagine me not dying, now that I am exposed.
I guess the scum might want to play some WIFOM game.. but I think that they are probably pretty frustrated by now, given their lack of success so far.

And what Process of Elimination? You have an innocent on me, too.
But for the record. I DON'T think Kison is scum. I'm just saying.. If I keep blocking you.. and there continue to be no nightkills... eventually we connect the two! But I think that that is VERY unlikely to happen.

[camn]

So ... if we have a night phase.... I will block/protect Kison again....
so if I die, that should mean he is clear. Assuming one remaining scum.

[camn]

If she is town, i would expect that PBPA she promised.
Well, if she were pro-town that is.

Now would be the time, my dear.

[camn]

You know.. it would make sense thematically for Forbiddan to be a third-party scum, like an SK or something, though it doesn't jive with the lack of nightkills.

But the character D'Anna is pretty much out for herself the whole time, switching alliances as it suits her.

Hmm.

[camn]

WTF?

Alright... Something is going on here.
I blocked/protected Kison, as planned... but I can't imagine that the scum tried to kill him.... so whats going on around here?

[camn]

+1

vote nolynch

Lets get "results" on everyone.

Also, i propose massclaim now.

[camn]

what do you worry about?

[camn]

I couldn't agree more.

Vote Kison

[camn]

I feel so betrayed.

That was a dynamite fake-claim, though.

I haven't played a lot of THEME games.. and never one with Mod-supplied fakeclaims.... so I think I was more impressed with its authenticity than I should have been.

Yay, Town!

[camn]

wow.
I have to say this regarding setup and stuff ...:
A) that was an AMAZING fake-claim from Tar....
But b) as it turned out, it was the worst claim he could possibly have made!

Obviously, claiming an Invesigative role drew my attention.. And thus drew the consistent block. Bad luck that the Doc was a Jailkeeper!!

And Forbiddan... My apologies for lynching you. I thought you were scum up until the end... But i think I was biased by thematic knowledge.

Nice block on Rishi, Fark!

[camn]

PS

Good game everyone....
And GREAT game Destructor !!!

Thanks a million for dragging me into it!
I am totally glad I replaced in!!

[camn]

Obviously, claiming an Invesigative role drew my attention.. And thus drew the consistent block. Bad luck that the Doc was a Jailkeeper!!

I was really interested in this. At first I thought you were jailkeeping him because you thought he was scum. Why did you protect him when you knew you'd be blocking him too?

The first night.. I figured that the scum would just try to kill him, and he was investigating ME, who's innocence I obviously was convinced of, so I figured I would save him, hopefully the scum would figure out that I was protecting him, and then I could phantom-protect him.


HOWEVER.. when he came back with a VERDICT... I pretty much thought he was either scum, or we had a sweet loophole with the day-choice...
So my day 2 block was 1/2 for block, 1/2 for protection. By day 4, I was about 80-20 him being scum...but obviously after a while it really was obvious.

Basically, it was working.. so I figured why mess around. Either he was scum and I was blocking him.. or he was town and we were getting results.

[camn]

I have a few ideas floating around, including some sort of sequel to this game, that I might put together eventually.

/in!

I'll try not lying next time!

[camn]

if I claimed scum, would anyone believe me?

[camn]

You were just sad that we were on opposite teams AGAIN.

We have never been on the same side, I think!