Mini 709 - Musical Mafia - (Game Over!)

[Tolmides]

Vote: jerseygoomba

Everybody knows folk from NJ don't have any ear for music. So if he thinks zach is playing out of key, he's probably playing perfectly.

[Tolmides]

That's 4/7 votes for Atlas now. Either people aren't reading below the mods posts or they have nefarious motives (Who could want a quicklynch on D1? I wonder...).

[Tolmides]

Because obviously, being the fourth person to vote Atlas is so nefariously sinister.

Well it sure ain't a good sign. Placing somebody within three votes of a lynching only hours into D1 is definitely questionable. You also never answered Jordan's question about whether the vote was random or not.

FoS: Gamma

I'm keeping my vote on jersey for now, his comment about Wall-E bandwagonning read like wilful misrepresentation.

[Tolmides]

What the...

Claiming to be the vigilante after only three votes for you (including yours...) isn't a smart move. What do we gain from that? You weren't in any immediate danger and a much better option would have been to argue instead of roleclaiming like this.

That said,

FoS: Wall-E

for seeming rather pleased about Gamma's coming out post.

[Tolmides]

It's a scummy attitude because mafia would be pleased if the vigilante came forward day 1...especially since we don't know whether or not we have a doctor. I don't see what we gain from knowing who the vigilante is at this stage, and it only places him in danger (assuming that Gamma IS the vigilante). My suspicion isn't strong enough to actually vote for you (and I think there are better targets), but I'm saying that I have my eye on you.

We have plently of FoS's going around so why don't we have some proper discussion now.

Alright, well I'll outline my main suspects at this stage.

First off, I don't think Budja was acting scummy with the third vote. It looks and feels like a continuation of the early joke votes.

Corporate and Nekka were quick to vote for Budja (ignoring Gamma's 4th vote). Of the two, Nekka feels like the scummiest.

And finally, jersey - for making that comment about Wall-E.

[Tolmides]

confirm vote

4th vote seems abit suspicious

Now you say the fourth vote (Gamma) seemed suspicious, but I took your confirming to mean that you were voting the same as Corporate in the post directly above yours (he voted for Budja). If I misinterpreted your post then I'm sorry.

I'll second challenging the vig claim. I don't see why a townie would make a call like that so early in the piece.

[Tolmides]

You claiming to be the vig on D1 when you had no need to reveal that piece of info reeks of scumminess. It isn't a tiny case.

[Tolmides]

Don't have a lot of time right now, so I'll keep it brief and recap my feelings later.

I think Gamma's behaviour was scummy and unhelpful to the town, but not grounds for lynching at this stage. Let's see how his NKing goes and then return to him. 2 villager kills a night is better than one.

My chief suspicion is again on Nekka. As Jordan pointed out, his posts are littered with unexplained contradictory actions. So...

FoS: Nekka

I also haven't see jersey in a while.

[Tolmides]

...You know what? You're right, let's kill the provable and controllable killer because there's probably a doc.

Wall-E...once again I think you are making a leap that he is controllable. That being said, I'm not convinced Gamma is scum yet.

As far as I'm concerned, it's insane to be voting for somebody claiming to be our vig. Give him a chance to prove his utility. When we come to a consensus on a player to kill, we should also indicate a secondary target. If he doesn't take out that secondary target, we kill him. If he's a SK, then he'll have to kill our choices or be killed by us (this will obviously need to be relooked at around the end) and if he's mafia then we'll quickly know if the real vig doesn't kill the same person.

But to kill him right off the bat seems to me the height of recklessness - which logically leads to my top three suspects being jersey, Budja and zach.

[Tolmides]

Well zach, I'm focusing on the ones who are voting for Gamma for now, and you three are the ones who've voted for him. I've already voiced my suspicions of Nekka in previous posts, so don't think I'm letting him off scot free.

Okay then, let's test this number 2 theory:

Gamma: Will you or will you not kill the town's number two target every night? If you won't, then I will support your lynching.

If he does, then it means that he's either a SK or a vig (if there is an actual vig out there I'd hope he wouldn't pick our number 2 suspect, purely so that we know we can safely kill Gamma). Of course, we run the risk of getting to the end with a SK we think is a vig. But that's not something we should worry about today. If Gamma is a SK we can use him for now and ditch him endgame (and just to be sure, we should probably do it anyway).

[Tolmides]

I'm voting for Nekka...

My apologies. I looked at the top of the screen, saw the vote count and that you were the only one voting for Gamma. Then I scrolled down to see who else had voted for him, and missed your unvoting.

Let's see how he responds then jersey, hmm? Because unlike you it seems, I don't want to take the chance of killing off a vig, especially if we can get him to kill who he want. Because he's outed himself so early, we have more control over how he kills. If he kills somebody who isn't the town's #2 pick, we can kill him. If he follows our directions, then we're in a much better position than in only being able to lynch. I'm not saying we should keep him alive forever, but the consequences of killing our vig are greater than keeping alive a SK/mafia for a day or two.

[Tolmides]

I'm not travelling but I've been really busy last couple of days, so sorry I haven't been posting much. I'm reading over what I've missed now and I'll be posting in a bit.

[Tolmides]

Vote Count: (above due to length of post)
Atlas - (0)
Budja - (0)
corporate - (0)
Gamma - (1) jerseygoomba
jerseygoomba - (1) Atlas
JordanA24 - (0)
My Milked Eek - (1) Gamma
Nekka-Lucifer - (3) zachattack, Wall-E, Tolmides
Tolmides - (0)
Wall-E - (5) Nekka-Lucifer, My Milked Eek, corporate, WhereIsTony, Budja
WhereIsTony - (0)
zachattack - (0)

With 12 alive, 7 votes will end the day.

Okay...

Let me list my feelings on you all (god, sounds like a ...)

Gamma - no, we shouldn't be killing him tonight. No matter what he is, we'll be in a better position re: him tomorrow. But he's behaving erratically: he was the fourth vote for Atlas, FoSed himself (?), called vig and then tried to partially backtrack.

Lol Wall-E, you're defending me so hard, you and I should be scum-buddies.

we would be invincible.

You, Zachattack and Gamma: the triple love-train threat.

This is indicative of his play-style. He's erratic and rather flippant. I don't like it, but I like killing our vig less.

However, if tonight he does what he hinted at ("I have no qualms about NKing players if they're gonna be a hassle, town or not. Fuck yeah.") then he should and I have little doubt will be lynched.

Nekka - 4th vote for Atlas early on.

Nekka is lurking. I asked him a question yesterday, he's been on Mafiascum today, but didn't come into this thread. This annoys me.

Seconded. He came in for a lot of scrutiny, disappeared and the heat has since turned to Wall-E and corporate (don't get me wrong, they're both good targets).

Corporate - not liking his posts at all. Particularly attacking Atlas for "jump[ing] on every little thing" (#92). That's scum-hunting. Yeah, I suppose it is possible to go too far, but I don't see Atlas as doing that. He's also very careful to be having a bob either way.

im not sure he

(ed: Tony)

is town, my point was just that wall e was jumping on him for trying to help the town. scum dosent want to help the town. hence, my vote.

Huh? Everyone claims to be trying to help the town. But lynching the vig on D1 isn't pro-town, no matter how you try to spin it.

Wall-E -

You don't like me cheering on the claimed vig? Too bad! I liked Gamma's claim, I liked everything about what he did, up to and including the reprimand.

If you're wondering why I don't find Gamma's claim suspicious, it's because his wagon was suspicious. He acted quite appropriately, in my opinion, in the face of a wagon on him for his random vote (wtf people?). His claim is provable, and if he ever crosses my scumdar it will be a snap to get the momentum to lynch him.

Let me address this quickly. Role-claiming should only be tried after arguing has failed. I highly doubt Gamma would have been lynched just for his vote for Atlas. He wasn't in any immediate danger, so it'd be far better to argue his case than role-claim and turn practically this whole thread into a "will he or won't he" situation.

Wall-E is also very quick to engage in OMGUS attacks, and he's gone rather over-the-top in his defence of Gamma, all the while flagrantly disregarding any arguments against him.

WhereIsTony - rather quiet, but comment which stood out for me was his eagerness to lynch Gamma at #83 and #85. However he then says at #100 that he believes there's a good chance Gamma is the vig. Talk about inconsistent?

Oh, and

unvote: jersey

. Rereading the topic, his suspicions of Wall-E seem to be well-founded. He was still too eager to lynch Gamma, but so were plenty of others. He did claim he was "parsing" through the thread almost two days ago, but has yet to post.

I'd like to see Tolmides post more original content, a lot of his posts have consisted mainly of agreeing with what others have said and putting what others have basically said in his own words. Tony, same thing to you.

Partly that's because of when I get on. I tend to log on after everyone is worn out over epic-length arguments and most of what I'd like to say has been said. I will try to be more involved now, however.

For now,

Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

Suspicious posting and silent at an opportune time for him. Plus, he has yet to respond to any accusations.

Second vote (for NK): Corporate.

I'd like Tony to respond to my comments regarding his inconsistencies though.

[Tolmides]

simply put, I thought we should lynch gamma when i was worried he was a threat to the town, however his post since then and others argument ion his utility have made me change my mind.

Fair enough.

I also like the killing the towns second choice at first but on further reflection am worried that it leaves us open to blocking if there is a blocker.

I think that's something we'll have to deal with as it comes up. I'm not prepared to kill the vigilante on the

chance

that there is a roleblocker.

OK Wall-E, after rereading your posts on there own, I have decided to take you up on a challenge you posted earlier (Post 130):

So, we are not killing Gamma. Everyone get your votes onto ANYONE else. Yes, even me. Unlike Gamma I won't claim until L-1, so be fearless and attack!

I had unvoted Gamma way back there. I'm going to give you a chance to make your claim.

VOTE: WALL-E

Ugh. I don't like bringing somebody to L-1 so soon, particularly when it is framed like this; vendettas against people aren't going to help us find scum. I'm not convinced that Wall-E is scum, and I certainly think there are better targets. As somebody said earlier on (I forget who), Wall-E's aggressive play makes me think he's more likely to be an angry and erratic townie (I'm placing the first call on him being a paranoid gun owner) than scum.

Nekka...you've had almost 24 hours to respond. What say you?

[Tolmides]

Jordan - I still don't think Wall-E is our top choice today. I'm reserving my vote pending what Nekka has to say. But I think either corporate or jersey are fair targets for a NK. Before we get to night we need to make it 100% clear to Gamma who we want our second target to be. Preferably, we should hold off when we get to L-1 on anyone to determine our second target for NK.

[Tolmides]

Wall-E's aggressive play makes me think he's more likely to be an angry and erratic townie (I'm placing the first call on him being a paranoid gun owner) than scum.

Trying to guess people's roles on Day 1 is a big no-no. If he wants to claim, then he can, but by guessing what role he is, if Wall-E is scum, you're giving him ideas what to claim (which looks scummy on your part, makes you too look like scumbuddies). And if Wall-E isn't scum, it gives the real scum ideas at what Wall-E might be.

FOS: Tolmides

I guess I should have make it clearer I was kidding around with that particular comment. I wasn't seriously suggesting he was a paranoid gun owner, because I don't see why somebody with that role would act like he's acting in the day. I was just saying that he was acting like a REAL paranoid gun owner would (i.e. somebody out in the real world, not on mafiascum or in a mafia game) in that he is "shooting" anybody who questions him and is being very confrontational.

I am not suggesting we kill him, only that we may not want to tell him who to target.

If we do that though, if he is a SKer then we are removing our means of control over him, leaving him free to kill whoever he pleases.

If, after N1, we see that there is a roleblocker in the game, then we'll need to deal with this. But until we have some further evidence that a roleblocker exists, I don't want to relinquish any holds we have over Gamma.

[Tolmides]

And I don't like Tolmides play. In fact, I hate it.

Oh? Care to elaborate?

I'm tending to agree with zach, Nekka has had plenty of time to respond now and is avoiding our questions.

[Tolmides]

Unless I miscounted, that's 5 votes for Nekka. So be careful with your votes now...let's give him a chance to respond. Besides, we need to agree on the NK before we proceed into night.

[Tolmides]

Gawd Gamma, you're doing a great job of making us believe every word you say. Keep it up.

So since everyone seems to be getting confused over the vote count...Wall-E is at L-1 and Nekka at L-3? I'd like to keep the pressure up on Nekka, he's been promising us a response for a few days now.

Jersey has been doing a good job of lying low recently and staying out of the debates on Wall-E and Nekka.

[Tolmides]

Well I suppose this game is effectively on hold until a replacement arrives...

[Tolmides]

Nekka's been scum in my book since the middle of this day. Do you think the replacement is going to say other than, "I have no idea why my predecessor did all that scummy stuff!"?

Get real.

Well we can still judge that replacement partly on the stuff Nekka did. Just because he's a new player doesn't mean we'll give him a totally fresh start, I'm sure we all won't just forget Nekka existed.

Your call for a quuicklynch on Nekka pretty much does it for you in my book. A quick call to lynch the only other person it looks likely we'd lynch today, and before we properly discuss who Gamma should kill. Imo, that swings it for me, I vote that you claim (since I cannot vote you without putting you at -1).

Yeah...I've been less sure of you than a lot of others, seing an irritable townie beneath your exterior, but this comment just about does it for me. We give Nekka's replacement the same chance to defend himself that everyone else gets. So uh...claim or mount an exceptionally convincing argument without insulting everybody else in the game or I'll vote for you.

Gamma - the game effectively HAS been waiting on Nekka for the last couple of days and not much has happened. When he's one of our top two suspects, his absence does leave a hole in the proceedings.

[Tolmides]

CORPORATE!!!!!!!! NO MATTER HOW GODDAMN OBVIOUS SOMEONE MAY BE SCUM OR TOWN, YOU MUST ABSOLUTELY GIVE REASONS FOR VOTES!! ESPECIALLY WHEN THREE PLAYERS SUSPECT YOU?!!? ARE YOU LAZY OR TRYING TO AVOID ATTENTION?!

I can't be the only one noticing the irony in this outburst...attacking others for not giving reasons for voting when My Milked Eek quoted you doing exactly the same thing.

If we didn't still need to decide on our NK and hear from RestFermata I'd cast the final vote to lynch you. On the subject of our NK target - I still prefer providing Gamma with a specific target and dealing with a RBer if it comes up. But I see your point Eek...and provided Gamma NKs one of Wall-E, corporate or jersey I'm alright with it. I also doubt we'll easily come to an agreement on one specific target. I would include RestFermata in that list, but it all depends on her response once she's caught up.

[Tolmides]

Barring someone saying hey guess what I am scum (which I wouldn't put past Wall-E considering he's practically trying to get lynched), it will be one of corporate, jersey and budja.

Now this is the first mini I've played on mafiascum, but is a jester a possibility? Has anyone actually played in a game before with Wall-E who can vouch that he is usually this abrasive?

As for my NK targets, I listed them before: Wall-E, corporate and jersey.

Tony - you're right, and the only thing I can think of would be to construct a "What route shall we take" kind of thing. It'd get very complicated very quickly though.