Mini 693 - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Mafia (OVER)

[andersonw]

Vote: ZONEFACE

muahahahaha

[andersonw]

I don't think there's any point in discussing who MafiaSSK could be, as I don't believe Tar would make it so obvious that he is Link/Ganon/other (although it's possible I'm wrong), and speculating on this wouldn't really help us figure out anything.

CoheedCambria and SilverPhoenix: What do you think about this?

[andersonw]

Ugghh... I've had a cold the past few days, and only got around to catching up in two of my other games.
I promise I'll read the past few pages and make a "real" post tomorrow, I need my sleep now.

[andersonw]

Pesco: Why did you just answer raider's question directed at iLord?

raider:
Could you respond to this? Is it still too early for you to comment on players? What do you think of iLord's statement?

Its too early for me to comment on the players. Once we get a few more pages I may have something.

It's not too early to comment on the actions of players.

coheed:

CC09, your speculation is very anti-town. You're discussing what could have happened with SSK. It's either SSK's role, a pro-town player's role or an anti-town plater's role. We can't do anything now if it's SSK's role so it's not helping town. If it's a pro-town role, we shouldn't talk about it at all. It only helps scum as they could see from the reactions of the players, whose role it could be. And if it's a scum role, they will just send us in the wrong direction. Tell me, how any of this is helping town.

I'm not liking how you appeared to dodge this by saying that you weren't the only person who was speculating. Could you explain exactly why you speculated?

[andersonw]

Also, on using meta, I don't believe it is very reliable. As some people have said, they like to play differently at different times. Normally, I wouldn't use it to decide my suspicions on players, but would just look at the actions that people have done inside the game (and I'm also too lazy to read up other games where people were town or scum ).
I agree with Pesco that if someone doesn't know what their meta is, it can be effective, but how are you supposed to tell whether or not the person does or doesn't know their personal meta?

[andersonw]

I was putting what I was thinking into text. In my mind I was running through the possibilities and I wrote them here. There was nothing else to comment on as well as nobody was/is talking.

So, why didn't you say that when ZazieR asked you about it? You replied with "I'm not the only person speculating", instead.

As shown in the above posts, I wasn't the only one wondering if SSK had control over his vote. But as we know, SSK can't talk. That's why I'm asking Malthusis if he knows something about this.

It seems that you're doing pretty much what CoCam said by saying this, you're using the fact that other people asked about MSSK to alleviate the fact that you did, too. I would also like to point out iLord's comment, that you said "why" while the other people said "does".

[andersonw]

I think I have stayed out of this way too much but I have to ask. Why is trying to figure out the possible roles so bad? I know it helps out scum to figure out what they are up agianst but at the same time more information the town has the better.

I think it's bad because, what "information" will the town gain from trying to figure out the roles?
The only information we would get would be

some

of the

many possible

roles (which means that we would probably be wrong and not get any information at all, pretty much).

[andersonw]

ZONEACE, would you post more of your case on iLord tomorrow? He doesn't seem really that "combative about nothing" to me, I actually agree with most of his reasoning.

@ooba: Probably around pi

[andersonw]

You guys figured it out yourselves while I was away. What don't you believe, double-vote or him being Twinrova? The soft-hinting at double-voting is what's suspicious.

I don't get this. Would he really hint at being an

anti-town

character?
And also, like iLord and SP said, there are many characters that could have a double vote.

(also I'm really mad at you from DF )

[andersonw]

Pesco, could you answer this? I also don't get what you meant by that statement.

Let's remember to keep that in mind when someone claims before their flip.

What does that have to do with anything?

I will keep this conversation in mind when

you

claim, however.

Also, iLord, why did you say the last sentence? I don't get it either (maybe my brain isn't working today).

Still waiting on ZONEACE, I'm interested in what he will say.

Malthusis has done nothing to persuade me that he's not a pro-Ganon doublevoter.

Just wondering, how would you expect him to persuade you that he isn't scum?

[andersonw]

Ok, so I'm going to give this a couple more days, and if nothing new has happend then I will either claim or accept my own death.

Are there any questions people want me to answer?

Post 131.

[andersonw]

ZONEACE, where are you?

FoS: ZONEACE

for barely posting anything so far, and also promising to get to this 2 days ago.

@Pesco: So, you think malthusis is scum just because he has a double vote? I'm not getting why that has to be true.
Also:

But his safeclaim doesn't fit his confirmed double-vote, therefore he is anti-town, most probably as Twinrova.

When did he mention anything about a safeclaim? He hasn't even claimed, how would you know that it doesn't fit?

[andersonw]

The thing that bothers me the most is that most of the votes are from the random phase and they never unvoted.

And why is this a bad thing?

[andersonw]

It's not scummy, but it's certainly antitown because

at the deadline, we have to have a majority of people voting on a single player. So, as of now, we will no lynch

because so many people have their random votes still.

Did you read the rules?

<10> If deadline occurs without a full majority and a majority of voting players are voting for a player, that player will be lynched. Otherwise, No Lynch will occur.

So if deadline happened now, CoheedCambria will be lynched, since the majority of voting players are voting for him.

[andersonw]

@iLord: In your post 304, you said that you thought ZONEACE was scum. Then, you just said in post 334 that you thought ZONEACE was town. Did you change your mind after he was lynched?
(also, I don't get the part you directed at Pesco either. What do you mean by "Pesco was pretty confident it wasn't a sanity problem, which is odd"?)
And I would like to see your response to SP's post, too.

My thoughts on ZONEACE: I really didn't like his aggressiveness, and it seemed to cloud whether or not he was mafia or town, since being aggressive can come from both roles. (and not knowing much about the theme doesn't help either).
I guess the previous sentence was pointless, seeing that he already turned up mafia, but just wanted to put that out there.

Finally, where did Natirasha go?

[andersonw]

A lot of posts pasted in between - I thought ZONEACE was town, but then he flipped out extremely convincingly in my opinion.

Wait, do you mean you thought ZONEACE was scum before he flipped out?



(also, just realized that my random vote was on scum, I'm getting better at this )

[andersonw]

I think Pesco genuinely didn't understand what iLord meant, since he/she repeated the same views and didn't "falter" in any of them. However, in response to post 377, I think iLord explained his point pretty well. It was hard to tell ZONEACE's alignment after he was lynched, but it is true that someone would have no reason to lie after they had been lynched. Also, the thing with "ZONEACE thinks ZONEACE is guilty" kind of implies that it could also have been a flavor cop.
Pesco, don't you think that it was even slightly possible that you might not have been a 100% sane cop?

iLord: To make it clear, why exactly do you think that not having second doubts about the cop result implies that Pesco is scummy? Sorry if you already said this somewhere, I kind of skimmed the last few pages.

Also, Pesco: Why exactly do you think iLord is scummy to deserve your vote? Assuming that what you said is true in the post where you voted him, I still don't get why him trying to get you to say that you were insane would imply that he's scum.

[andersonw]

Let us remember that ZONEACE ws modkilled for jackassery. Lying when he had no reason to under twilight is a possible offense. My feeling was not to trust him and just as he had no reason to lie, I have no reason to disbelieve the mod in giving me accurate results.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't modkilled for lying, he was modkilled for insulting other people with pretty harsh language.

That would be correct. - Tar

I'm also coming to agree with iLord's mindset, since as he already explained, the lynched person has no reason to lie, and lying wouldn't help the lynched person at all in this game, anyways.
However, I do think that iLord is pushing it slightly too hard. I don't think Pesco should be lynched just for having that mindset, since she could have genuinely believed that she was sane. What do you think of that, iLord?

[andersonw]

@ZazieR: Can you now explain why you've been asking SP whether he's been reading? (or was it just the tracker/watcher thing?)

I don't know if I believe SP saying that he doesn't see the difference between a watcher and tracker. The fact that you said tracker when the mod first said that ZONEACE was a watcher is pretty suspicious. You've been here for more than a year already, and also, when you said "It simply isn't fair", it seems to be slightly overreacting and an appeal to emotion, too.

FoS: SilverPhoenix

. I might vote later, I need to take another look.

[andersonw]

@raider: No, that's his role in the future.

So it looks like in the past certain people are scum but are town in the future or vice virsa?

That doesn't really make much sense, because it defeats the point of the game if someone is town and knows who the scum is.

Nat, I'd also like to know why mass-claiming will help determine who is scum. ZONEACE was Rauru, who wasn't evil in the series (according to wikipedia).

[andersonw]

iLord: Who do you suspect most right now?

Same question for MafiaSSK, you haven't really contributed much of your thoughts to the game yet.

[andersonw]

Also, iLord, what do you think of Pesco turning up town?

[andersonw]

malthusis: Do you still believe your theory, now that iLord has commented on it?

[andersonw]

Me not playing at all I suppose. But for fun, since this is a game me being sniped would be preferable.

What? Are you saying that it's good if you get killed? Or am I just misunderstanding you?

[andersonw]

No. No one found Pesco's mindset worrying. You are the only one.

If you were paying close attention, you would have read that I had agreed with iLord about this point already, but I'll stop beating the dead horse now.

[offtopic]
(also find it ironic how you answer a question directed at armlx right before MafiaSSK made a post saying "thank you for answering a question which I could have answered.)[/offtopic]

On MafiaSSK's claim, I don't know whether it exists in the past or not, but a search on wikipedia here leads to the page "recurring enemies in the legend of zelda series", which is kind of confusing. Could someone with more knowledge explain this to me? (like, what was the point of a gold skulltula in the game? were they evil? if so, why would MafiaSSK claim this?).

[andersonw]

Has andersonw said anything lately?

No, all of my time's been recently occupied in my other game.

A quick thought: The main point I believe that is against his roleclaim is that he said Tarhalindur told him that they didn't exist in the past, when they did.
And what's up with post 594? "I don't know if I have any more abilities"? How is it possible that you would have any abilities, even though you already claimed vanilla townie?

[andersonw]

I'm not so sure about the mass claim either, but I'll go along with it if everyone else feels it's a good idea.

Nat can you go into more details about what you were trying to do before the mass claim?

Why did you say this? What did you want to know? It sounds like fishing to me.

Instead of doing the scummy thing and telling someone else to hammer and not voting myself I did the right thing and nullified his double vote.

Why is it scummy to tell someone else to hammer? It seems that if you had told malthusis that you were okay with a hammer, it would have been just like as if you had voted, since you were supporting MafiaSSK's lynch.
iLord: similarly, you are attacking raider partly because he voted. Since there would have been pretty much no difference between raider voting and raider telling malthusis to vote, why is he scummy for doing that?

And finally, I hate the CPU quota error X.X

[andersonw]

Lol, Tar, sorry.

raider, could you respond to the questions in my last post?

[andersonw]

Vote: Mathusis

Fell exactly into my trap. I was looking for the source of the Light Arrows.

Yeah, my reaction to this was exactly the same thing as iLord's. I mean, Rauru was the sage of light, obviously, he had light arrows. Sure, zelda has light arrows, but couldn't there be other people that fit?!
Is that really the only reason you wanted us to massclaim? I thought you might have had some role information that could help us (like "all sages are scum" or something like that)


I'll read through the iLord-raider thing and comment on it tomorrow (I'm siding with raider right now, just taking a quick look at it), but I just want to respond to this right now.

Why is it scummy to tell someone else to hammer? It seems that if you had told malthusis that you were okay with a hammer, it would have been just like as if you had voted, since you were supporting MafiaSSK's lynch.

Because I would have been encouraging someone to die and yet after the flip been like "dont look at me I didnt vote for him".

You shouldn't even be assuming that you would be saying anything like that. Clearly, if you had said "dont look at me I didnt vote for him", we would have interpreted that as scummy, because saying "I strongly support a MSSK lynch" pretty much carries the same weight as voting (to me, at least).

[andersonw]

I don't see why I still need to roleclaim, as there's no point in doing it anymore, but if you still want me to, I will.

Natirasha: Could you explain why you are so sure that zelda implies light arrows? I'm still not getting how that deserves a massclaim.

After reading through the iLord-raider argument, I've seen nothing to convince me that voting is different from asking someone to hammer. It still seems pretty clear to me that raider supported a MSSK lynch, and whoever hammered him really didn't matter (I also want to hear raider's response to the end of my 680, though). And congrats with the baby, too!

[andersonw]

Also andersonw, you can see in this quote why Natirasha thinks that Zelda/Sheik had the light arrows. Besides, I don't know if anyone has played 'Twilight Princess' or 'The Windwaker', but in both games Zelda helps by using the light arrows.
This, together with Malt's quote and his explanation of it, means he deserves my vote.

While malthusis's "contradictions" are something different, my point was that I don't get how the single idea of finding someone with light arrows deserves a massclaim. Could you still explain this, Natirasha?

Also, malthusis: If it is still possible that both Zelda and Shiek could both have been in the game (obviously not now, of course), why would you still counterclaim even if there was a small chance? Looking at the wikipedia article, it says that Zelda was Sheik in the future, so I would be surprised if I was Zelda and wasn't Sheik (this is pretty much speculation, but the flavor seems pretty strong to me).

@andersonw. I do not think I would have said that if that had been the case but if someone tried to sum it up it would have looked just like that. I do not think someone saying its ok to hammer and someone voting are the same thing. They do show support for the lynch but to different level of support. The vote being of course the higher support.

Okay, thanks.

I'll claim.
I am another sage, Impa to be exact.
In the past, I am a one-shot cop (although the flavor makes it seem like I am more of a flavor cop, kind of like how Pesco described hers).
In the future, I am a vanilla townie.
Question for anyone: Do you think it's a good idea to reveal whether I have used it yet?

And, with the amount of power roles we are getting, I wouldn't be surprised if there were still 2 more mafia. I still think it's more likely that there's 1 left, though, because 4 out of 12 is still a pretty large amount. (I haven't read any minis with traitors, though, so I'm not sure about the general meta on this).

[andersonw]

If I had investigated someone, I did not get a guilty result.

@iLord: So you think malthusis is scum?

Could you elaborate on what you are trying to say here? I'm a little confused.

My question was:
I would be surprised if Zelda was still Zelda in the future, because the flavor goes strongly against that. Therefore, if someone claimed Shiek, wouldn't there still be a possibility of that person telling the truth?

[andersonw]

Some more stuff:

Andwersonw, I still want you to claim. But I'm only one player. I want to know what the others will say about this as I think the claims might help us. I will go into this if the decision will be that you claim.

Could you now explain why you think the claims should help?

and iLord, you never made that ZazieR case, what happened to that?

[andersonw]

ZazieR, on your post 716, I don't really think the evidence is very strong, it just doesn't seem likely to me that he could still kill after he died, nor that Tarhalindur read the mangas in the first place. Also, remember that raider was targeted night 1 (I think), and scum probably did that.

Why did you FoS ZONEACE for this, but not Ooba while he did it through the whole game?

There's not much to give comments about as I haven't seen any cases of him yet. I do not trust this. Especially with his FoS against ZONEACE, while Ooba did the same and was even worse than ZONEACE. I want an explanation for this before I look into this.

ooba was not worse than ZONEACE at the time, if we look at ZONEACE's posts, they were at dates (oct 21, 22, 24, 30, nov 2, 6) and ooba was (oct 23, 27, nov 2, 5+V/LA), and ZONEACE stood out more to me at that time because he

promised

to post but didn't.

But I'm interested to hear why you think that there are in the past two cops.

I have no idea, but it is a closed game, and you never know with Tarhalindur.

Right now, I feel that iLord is the most suspicious to me with his behavior, but his claim makes me think he is town, since it will be confirmed tonight. Although, if he knows that there are still 2 scum left, then today would be in LyLo, so...
First, on day 1, there was ZONEACE who said that he was "thrilled with his random vote on iLord" or something, and later, he retracted his suspicions and said that it was an "overreaction", and that was pretty weird to me.
iLord disagreed with Pesco for most of day 2 because of her seemingly not understanding his questions on purpose, and later, when I asked iLord about it, he said that it was clear by the end of the day that she wasn't deliberately misunderstanding, but looking through his posts before he said that, he didn't really say anything about it, which I also find weird.

It's really late here, I'll put more of my case up tomorrow...err... this afternoon, if you're in EST (it's 12:10 AM). Although, it's already almost deadline, and it probably wouldn't make a difference anyways...

[andersonw]

I'll be V/LA until the 31st for vacationing in Florida. Dont' know whether we will have internet or not.

[andersonw]

Good game everyone, I'm sorry I had to get replaced, although I was pretty confident of my winning chances.
I fake-claimed one-shot cop because:
a) I could use it to get someone lynched in lylo (most important reason)
b) I could use it to confirm someone, gaining townie points
c) I could always say that I investigated someone that was dead, if I wanted to play it safe.
In fact, I was really considering what I should claim when it was my turn, because as ZazieR noted, there was already a cop in the past, and I might be put under suspicion for that, but I still decided to go with it in the end.
My plan was, pretty much:
1. Get natirasha lynched (possibly by claiming a guilty)
2. Kill malthusis, because he was most likely telling the truth.
Which was what happened in the end anyways.

In my opinion, Town lost this game for one reason only: they decided to play "let's outguess Tarhalindur" and lost.

Agreed.
I was so mad when ZONEACE had to get himself modkilled, and then even worse when we found out we lynched mafia day 1.

Good job ZazieR, for correctly guessing I was scum near the end, and raider, for not really coming under suspicion (except for iLord).
Thanks forbiddanlight, for replacing me, and posting more at the end than I posted during the whole game, probably.

I also find it funny that I blocked raider the one night he could kill, if his kill went through, the game could (and probably would) have turned out differently.

And once again, sorry for lurking, especially near the end. Schoolwork was just too hard on me, but I think I did pretty well (in terms of activity) near the beginning, by my standards.


Oh, and thanks Tar for giving me a hider role in the past, with no way of being able to die there (unless if Rauru backstabbed me or something).