Mini 699: Insane Asylum Mafia: Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

vote killah nine

FoS killer seven

Has to be them as the mafia given the notes

[LlamaFluff]

Vote: LlamaFluff

for being unable to resist a forbiddanlight-modded game with both farside22 and me in it. Yeah, I have the queue on watch.

unvote
vote StrangerCoug

for being strange(r) enough to watch the queue

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote pentagradon

You still have your vote on a claimed miller and are not commenting on his claim.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote pentagradon

You still have your vote on a claimed miller and are not commenting on his claim.

Perhaps I missed his claim? I realize this is not the best reason, but when I spot spelling errors I tend to skim the post.

Anyways, if it truly makes you happy, I will

Unvote

. It really doesn't matter, the vote was random anyway. However I must ask how we can know that pop is telling the truth?

We dont know, which is kind of my point in the vote for you. The post you quoted came directly following (and was an EBWOP) to the claim post, so I figured you had seen it. i was wondering why you avoided comment of the roleclaim of the player that you voted for, as since the claim happened, I dont think the vote could be considered a random one anymore.

@mirth - You dont beleive the miller claim? I see no reason to doubt it at this point in the game, and I also doubt that extensive grilling of tajo can expose any holes in a claim as black and white as his is. He is not off limits for lynching, but I lean him town for the claim.

[LlamaFluff]

Death miller... wow I only heard of that as a joke role before. Why did you wait to claim that part of your role? It seems just as, if not more vital then the fact that you turn up scum to cops.

[LlamaFluff]

llama, what do you think of all this now

I am completely confused. I have been on this site for about half a year and this is the first time I have been in a game that had a miller claim (let alone a counter). I have seen an SK claim D2, have seen survivors, hidden day vigs, but never this.

Now, I know FL from offsite and we joined at about the same time. I also know that she basically idolized Tar and has the complete potential to be a bastard mod. I can completely see both of these players being millers, even more so since they are different flavor of miller.

I have never played with Jules before, and have no completed game with tajo so I dont have a meta of what either of them would of wouldnt do. It makes it even more confusing since we actually do not know if tajo is lying or not in his claim even if we lynch him, which is the downfall of the death miller.

If there was only one miller, I think that it would be tajo actually. My main reasoning from this comes from the game where I met FL offsite (so outguessing the mod) we were scum and joking around with the mod asking to make one strong town player who was getting blindsided a death miller.

I really think that both of the players are millers though. Playing from here like we would play a normal game is the best move, we take the claims with a grain of salt and just move on. We are stuck if we try to lynch, as lets look at the scenarios we can have. This does not mean we cant lynch tajo/jules, we just dont because of this claim. No matter what we do, tajo is guarenteed to flip scum. The only way it may be determineable that he is scum is if he is power scum. If we are lynching for information (which we shouldnt), we dont lynch tajo, as it gives us none. That leaves Jules, and what happens if she flips miller? We lynch tajo? There could be two millers. FL is evil.

So I say we dont lynch a miller today. I would rather lynch someone advocating the lynch of tajo as we will gain zero information off that lynch, and let scum pick someone to kill at will.

Given that penta asked for a response from tajo in 48 and got it in 52 and has posted without responding given his opinions I will leave my vote there.

FoS SC

though for trying to get someone whos flip will give us no information lynched though.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama I'm not sure why you are against lynching either player. Shouldn't it be based on how they play and how much they scum hunt then their claim.

[This does not mean we cant lynch tajo/jules, we just dont because of this claim.

I probably should of made that the starting sentance of a paragraph. My point is we shouldnt lynch for information given tajos claim. If he is scum, we wont know it, if he is town, we wont know it. If we think he is scum at some point, yes we lynch him. We dont lynch someone that is

guarenteed

to flip scum though unless there are some concrete reasons.

[LlamaFluff]

This is offically insane...

MK - Death miller or regular miller?

[LlamaFluff]

also, llama you did not answer my question

Does 62 not work for you or am I misinterpreting your question?

[LlamaFluff]

llama, i was hoping for my of an explanation of your thought process here.

Was the fact that penta was voting for a claimed role without acknowlaging his belief or disbelief of it. I by no means consider tajo confirmed town, but I do have him leaning town in my book now, and did when he was the only claimed miller. If someone claims, I tend to believe the claim untill I am given a reason not to, or am given some confirmation the claim is true.

@Crazy - Did you claim miller too?

@Corvuss - Why did you just make a joke vote against the mod after we had three miller claims?

The gender stuff is funny though, I tend to get called she a lot. Its a dude lion... people really need to watch more old disney movies.

[LlamaFluff]

@Electra - Are you suggesting we just should lynch a miller today? If so why? I fail to see what it would accomplish if its for the claim only.

@Corvuss - I dont like the flavor claim idea. This is a

theme

game, which means that there is flavor (which of course is subjective) in every role. I consider the vanilla PM on page one to be flavorful. If we have people who view what is flavor as different then others, this could easily cause a mislynch. Besides, you should be scumhunting, not trying to get a lynch off flavor.

[LlamaFluff]

As for you, what have you contributed to the scum hunt?

Attempts to stop poor reasoned lynches that are either based on flavor or on claims. This is interesting coming from you though when suggesting a flavor claim is all you have contributed, as I have already stated I dont think that a flavor claim would help at all, and more likely hurt.

We need to actually scumhunt though, not try and debate what miller is the best to lynch, or what flavor we should be lynching. The miller claim to me is one that should more or less be ignored, and treated more like a vanilla town claim then anything else. If they are scummy, you lynch them, if they act townish, you dont. If a different role then cop has proof they are town, you lynch them.

I still think penta is a little scummy for keeping the vote on tajo after he claimed miller and failed to comment on it. I am not sure how much to buy the "I didnt see the claim" since he did quote the post immediately following the claim, which was an EBWOP to the claim. Given the ensuing storm of stuff happening though I think that its the best lead thanks to my views on miller claims.

[LlamaFluff]

Attempts to stop poor reasoned lynches that are either based on flavor or on claims. This is interesting coming from you though when suggesting a flavor claim is all you have contributed, as I have already stated I dont think that a flavor claim would help at all, and more likely hurt.

I didn't say that.
Go back, re-read chat.
Not everything you say is true.
Read again, see my view.

You brought up the flavor claim though

If this is possible, all of us should confirm.
Not our 'roles', etc. but if specific insane flavor is firm.

[LlamaFluff]

various people have said "flavor", "no flavor", "some flavor".
I said not mass flavor claim, but if specific flavor is aver.
Then we would be on the same page
and not lynch based on subjective gauge.

Well what is flavor? I dont see any real way to determine what flavor is without coming close to vanilla/not vanilla claims from people.

Lets say that you and I are both vanilla. You think that the PM has no flavor in it, so you claim flavorless. I think the PM has decent flavor, so I claim flavor. Do you see the comlications that can arise from taking a path like this? Anything that involves any type of claiming can, and likely will, hurt the town, as it gives scum more information.

If we assume that MK and Jules are millers and got an identical miller PM, that is an actual example of what can go wrong. One person consideres it flavored or more flavored then the other, and we start getting distracted and use flavor as a reason to lynch.

Basically given subjective opinions there is no way to safely flavor claim, so its a bad idea that will lead to problems for the town and could easily out a role or two.

[LlamaFluff]

Well what is flavor? I dont see any real way to determine what flavor is without coming close to vanilla/not vanilla claims from people.

Lets say that you and I are both vanilla. You think that the PM has no flavor in it, so you claim flavorless. I think the PM has decent flavor, so I claim flavor. Do you see the comlications that can arise from taking a path like this? Anything that involves any type of claiming can, and likely will, hurt the town, as it gives scum more information.

If we assume that MK and Jules are millers and got an identical miller PM, that is an actual example of what can go wrong. One person consideres it flavored or more flavored then the other, and we start getting distracted and use flavor as a reason to lynch.

Basically given subjective opinions there is no way to safely flavor claim, so its a bad idea that will lead to problems for the town and could easily out a role or two.

I will try to think of a way to explain better.
but it wasn't my intention; miscommunicated letter.

Anything yet?

@SC - Why should we eliminate the miller claims from lynch contention entirely?

@Juls - Why not someone like stef or MK if you are looking for a lurker lynch? Why even a lurker lynch since it only "could" be a scum tell?

[LlamaFluff]

So it was a pressure vote and not a vote with lynch intention?

[LlamaFluff]

Like I said, there isn't much to go on yet so yes it was more of a pressure vote than a lynch vote.

Really?

I think that he is the best place to put my vote at the moment. It's not a lot to go on but it's more than I have seen from anyone else. I think lurking can be a scumtell especially early in a game. It could come from two reasons 1) not being able to formulate a "fake" argument against someone or 2) trying not to be seen.

Dont see that as pressure vote reasons

[LlamaFluff]

OK. I will ask for a replacement. I am not going to let my inexperience detract from the game. I feel like I am being intimidated because you know I haven't played much. I knew yours and Mirth's questions were traps yet I answered them anyway. I knew no matter what I said you would stroke your ego by making me look stupid.

I am pretty much done with this game, I don't need to be made to feel stupid everytime I turn around.

Mod: Please find a replacement for me.

...
....
.....

Ok then!

I am trying to just figure out exactly what your intentions for voting are. You say that its for pressure, while other posts seem to say its for actual reasons. If you think that these lines of questioning are made with the intention to trap you, then people will be attempting to trap you in every game that you play.

Its not my intention to make you feel stupid, I just want answers.

[LlamaFluff]

Assuming both of them are town, the problem with Mirth and Llama's playstyle is that they think that everyone should act how they act as town.

Well this isnt the case but it would help me. I just have problems when town does illogical stuff, which happens way too much and get on them for it.

@Electra - Some of your points against me are either plain wrong or increadably weak.

First two random votes... that is not scummy. Hardly distracting either. I doubt anyone read my second vote and went "wow llama is so awesome with his contributions and scumhunting" or "I wish he would shut up already". If I was random voting now sure, thats scummy. First page is not even close though.

I attacked penta for a logical reason, and I dont like you calling it crap as fast as you have. He had his random on the miller (which is NOT why I voted him), but after the claim he kept his vote on tajo WITHOUT commenting on the claim at all. That is what was scummy.

I tried to keep people from lynching a claimed miller (especially a death miller) off the claim alone. Show to me how trying to stop people from being illogical is a scummy move, or how what I did lacked a sound backing.

I did not like the way you started rattling off all the combinations of who out of the millers could be scum and who could not. That was a lot of information there and it could easily be refrenced by you or others in the future if one of the miller claims is proven to be false, setting up lynches. The way you really had not pushed for any players lynch at that point in the game made it feel like it was your suggestiong to be following the most likely of the paths theorized in your post.

The flavor debat had a lot of merit, and you seem to be ignoring that fact. If I call the vanilla PM flavorful and you dont, we will hit problems if we massclaim flavor. Any areas of the game where opinion is subjective instead of factual can cause misinterpretations. If we are massclaiming in an area where people can misinterpret things, we will have problems, and very likely give up too much information.

There is a difference between pressure and lynch intention. Pressure is used to guage a reaction, or to get someone involved in the game if you think that they are lurking their way into hiding. A vote to lynch is a way of saying "if I could daykill anyone it would be this player". I do not see these as the same at all, which is why I tend to be very serious when distinguishing between the two votes, and try and be sure that others are as well.

[LlamaFluff]

I didn't say we should say our flavor.
but if flavor is used, have a standard favor.

If all "Insane" could be replaced by Silly.
Then Juls' post of 'no flavor' is possible, really?

So stop saying Corvuus want us to 'mass claim'.
The whole thing, feels rather lame.

I think that I get what you are saying, but I still dont like this type of claiming. It still is open to interpretation, and has a decent chance of accidently outing a role.

What are your thoughts though? All you really have pushed for in this game is a flavor claim. In the early part you speculated about scum claiming miller a bit, and recently you responded (correctly) to SC answering some things before I had a chance to.

I dont think flavor claim will happen though, so where are your suspicions since you seem to want to keep us in the dark for actual suspicions while dealing with flavor claim plans in public.

At this point though I am keeping my vote on Penta. The fact that he is attempting to justify a vote on Juls soley given that she asked for replacement while using AtE is just poor reasoning to cast a vote.

[LlamaFluff]

@Penta - Do you think that Jules replacing out of this game in the way she did is really the best scumtell we have at this point in the game?

[LlamaFluff]

@Penta - Do you think that Jules replacing out of this game in the way she did is really the best scumtell we have at this point in the game?

Well, going off my memory alone I would have to say that it is one of the most interesting things done in the game so far. I could just be making something out of nothing, but the way she did it just struck me as odd. So, yes, I would have to say it is one of the largest scumtells at this point.

So you consider overreaction a scumtell then right? What was "odd" exactly too? Finally, you say "one of the largest". What are the other large tells to you.

[LlamaFluff]

However, I am going to bet that someone is going to prove me wrong.

'

Given that you seem to of been "proven wrong", what are your thoughts on the Juls replacement?

Also how do miller claims stack up late in the game?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: I see a lot of your questions to Juls I felt like you were trying to corner her as a trap that was more of a no win situation for her. Post 169, 171 and 173. Why did you think her answer on her vote wasn't sufficiate?

I saw a contridiction between post 167 and 170. In 167 the vote against penta was defined in two points, with a breif mention of lurking. When I pressured in 169 to see how much of a factor lurking was playing, post 170 and 172 made it sound like the vote was for pressure then a serious vote, despite having multiple reasons listed in 167.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama's comments felt like a trap.

How so?

I was pushing at what looked like what a contridiction to see if it was or wasnt. I could see it considered a trap in the form of "If she contridicts herself I vote her" but using that line of logic any form of questioning can be used to "trap" another player.

[LlamaFluff]

What are your thoughts though? In the early part you speculated about scum claiming miller a bit, and recently you responded (correctly) to SC answering some things before I had a chance to.

If I hadn't responded to SC answering before you,
would you have pointed SC out and said your view?

Yeah. When people start answering for me I get paranoid as someones else interpretations of my actions are started to be used as what my reasoning was.

Even what mirth is doing has be a little on edge right now, especially since its the second time another player has defended me a bit.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama's comments felt like a trap.

How so?

I was pushing at what looked like what a contridiction to see if it was or wasnt. I could see it considered a trap in the form of "If she contridicts herself I vote her" but using that line of logic any form of questioning can be used to "trap" another player.

I read her answers and no matter what her answer to your last question it was a trap.

If you are talking about 173 I was pretty close to voting for her since the contridiction had been made. Given that there seemed to be confusion I wanted to see how she explained the two posts when stacked up next to eachother, or see if she dug herself a hole, and that made her replace out.

This is kind of a side note, but I have seen this situation briefly mentioned in GD. I really dont think that I did anything wrong, and if presented with the same situation again, would approach it in the same direction. The fact that some people seem to be treating me and mirth as a little too aggressive for the attack bugs me quite a bit, since I have seen many people go way over the top of anything we have done in this game.

[LlamaFluff]

However, he is only 2nd in my suspicious mind.
LlamaFluff is my #1 choice for a mafia find.

It is hard for me to put into words and say
but various things bother me this way.

His actions towards me,
ignoring SC to a degree.

It just feels weird in my knee
for them to act in such a key.

My interactions with you are primarily over flavor. I still think that its a horrible idea to even start claiming anything that is open to interpretation and could out a role. If you dont see it, then I still am going to argue the point.

For SC, I dont think he is the scummiest player so I am not going to be trying to get him lynched. Also I really dont like it when people use interactions with a player that they do not know the alignment of to make a case. It seems like you think that SC is scum, and therefore that supports me being scum, yet move to me getting lynched first.

[LlamaFluff]

You ignored half my post and do not comment on SC's action.
Instead it seems like you consider it a minor distraction.

So I don't care what SC is, anti-town or scum.
It just seems unusual to me that you would ignore things... or am I dumb.

If I do not consider someone scum I am not going to make an attempt at getting themn lynched. At this point I do not consider SC scum, so am not trying to get him lynched. I am not ignoring him entirely, but I am not pointing out everything he does, as I would rather get other people lynched.

I dont know if I am missing the point of your questions, but when I dont think someone is scum there is no reason I see to try and start questioning them or making cases against them.

[LlamaFluff]

Then who are your top 2 list for being scum?
I don't see who you are trying to get lynched by their thumb.

Penta is my top by quite a bit at this point, which I thought was actually obvious. Second is SG (replaced Juls) but I feel that there isnt enough to warrent that lynch quite yet, miller claim or not.

Something I noticed though when I was rereading

I don't. I find it odd to ask for a counterclaim for a miller, but then again, I haven't encountered millers in a game before either, but even so I believe it's uncommon to find

two

of them in a game.

I thought it was three. Tajo, MK and you.

[LlamaFluff]

Yes, I do think its a good idea that everybody claim if they are millers or not. I dont want posterior "new miller" scenarios.

I am not a miller

I also should have a bigger post up on penta tonight

[LlamaFluff]

Post on Penta

I have been over the initial reason for my vote on Penta quite a few times at this point, but I still feel it is a fairly strong reason to be voting him. The claim ended the random stage, I don’t think that anyone is going to argue that. Penta kept his vote on tajo though after the claim, given that I still feel that this post came after the random stage ended, but also happened to be on the miller, just isn’t right to me.

The next few posts by Penta really don’t do anything to alleviate suspicion of him in my mind though. We first have him unvote to “make me happy”, but already seems to start questioning the validity of the claim with the rest of the post and his next post as well –

However I must ask how we can know that pop is telling the truth?

However, as farside said, "I suspect one day mafia to pull such a stunt for giggles."

I for one do not like someone starting to cast doubt on a role when they are first not voting for the player, and secondly when the role is death miller which is GUARENTEED to flip scum, and will thus net no information.

For the next part of the game, Penta goes and makes a lot of forgettable posts that really add nothing to the game. The next move from Penta though is the vote on Juls, which is enough for me to be keeping my vote on him for quite a while.

The vote comes from the fact that Jules asked to be replaced in the game, when it is oversold into a post that climaxes with this

@Penta - Do you think that Jules replacing out of this game in the way she did is really the best scumtell we have at this point in the game?

Well, going off my memory alone I would have to say that it is one of the most interesting things done in the game so far. I could just be making something out of nothing, but the way she did it just struck me as odd. So, yes, I would have to say it is one of the largest scumtells at this point.

I just like the Penta vote. The entire reasoning for the vote on Juls, which came on page 8, is for the flip out. On top of that it is supposedly the largest scum tell so far in the game. This assessment is made without mentioning any of the other cases that are being pushed at the time.

The debate over is what has occurred with Juls being the largest tell continues with this

@Penta - Do you think that Jules replacing out of this game in the way she did is really the best scumtell we have at this point in the game?

Well, going off my memory alone I would have to say that it is one of the most interesting things done in the game so far. I could just be making something out of nothing, but the way she did it just struck me as odd. So, yes, I would have to say it is one of the largest scumtells at this point.

So you consider overreaction a scumtell then right? What was "odd" exactly too? Finally, you say "one of the largest". What are the other large tells to you.

Yes, I do consider an overreaction to be a scumtell in most situations. However, I am going to bet that someone is going to prove me wrong.

By saying "one of the largest" I meant the following. There have been some rather interesting things happening in the game so far such as the miller claims. While certain things are not scumtells by themselves, they may stack up later in the game. These are really just notes for myself for later in the game should I survive.

First of all, I always consider people who try and use things like overreaction (over overdefensive for that matter) scummy. Everyone has emotions, flips out, or just melts down at times. It does not mean that they are scum, from my past games I see town do this a LOT more then scum.

The rest of the post though seems to say that apart from the Juls situation the only real “scumtells” that have happened are the miller claims. This is another situation of Penta trying to cast some doubt on the miller claims too, which just concerns me since there has yet to be any reason to call them scum for the claim. All the claim has done is warn investigative roles of wrong results
@Millers as I am thinking about it – Do you just appear guilty to cops or would you appear to target the dead to something like a tracker/watcher?

I really don’t know about the sudden move to the SC wagon. While there is some merit to it, the fact that it didn’t happen until there seemed to be some SC hate circulating makes me wary of it. Also the fact that SC was really not even mentioned by Penta before this post, and he heartily had defended that Juls was the scummiest player in the game by quite a bit all make me wary about the case. Also its partially due to SCs meta of “lynch magnet”. In every game I have seen him, he has been town, and in every game he has been mislynched after being legitimately scummy. This last part I still need to mull over a bit though.

[LlamaFluff]

llama; while i think most of your case is valid, im still not at all liking the not unvoting tajo thing. you continuing to bring this up makes me want to know why youre so sure of tajo.

I have been thinking about this myself and it may be a playstyle thing. Tajo has claimed death miller, that means no matter what happens in this game, he will flip scum. The problem is we cant tell if its a truthful flip or not, meaning he essentially is a no flip player. (This is also why I want to know what tajo/MK/SG do if a tracker follows them)

Given that we never know his alignment untill this game ends, we cant draw any connections off him, so I treat him as town in all my analysis since it would be better (and more benificial to my style) to search for scum considering tajo town and losing possible connections, then to search for scum using connections "scum" who may be town.

As I am reading this back it looks confusing to me even, so I know it cant be too clear to others, but I keep circling back to treating him as conditional town aligned. I dont mean to call him confirmed town, but for all basis of interactions with other players I need to give him a neutral/town alignment.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont really see what is making tajo scummy here, I think that its a post misinterpretation since I can see where Mirth is coming from, but also what I think tajo is saying in the post.

The stuff against Stef though is also not too strong though, the vote on Juls is the only thing I see as scummy given that it was cast with really weak reasoning.

[LlamaFluff]

Nice moment to jump against me when I have been miller all the game.

that part of your post really bothers me......

This is the part I think you misinterpreted. I read that line from tajo as "you are just now putting pressure on me for being a miller when I claimed in the start of the game".

[LlamaFluff]

and do you think interpreting it that way makes it all better

I dont think it merits a vote by any means.

[LlamaFluff]

no i think its best to lynch whoever is the scummiest at the end of today and not make policy lynch plans haphazardly.

Pretty much exactly what we should be doing. We seem to be in disagreement about who is scum, but voting tajo because he claimed death miller is a pretty bad move. The miller claim (death miller included) is basically a warning to investigative roles like cop, tracker, etc.

Penta is still the scummiest to me, as I stated extensively in my last large post against him.

[LlamaFluff]

The post was a mix of directed between mirth and sly. The part about agreeing on mirth quote but disagreeing on who to vote was directed to Mirth. The part about tajo being a bad policy lynch was directed at sly, but more of a general theory comment.

I dont see how if I said "We seem to be in disagreement about who is scum, but Sly voting tajo because he claimed death miller is a pretty bad move" is any different. He is the only one voting because of the claim.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont like how everyone continually ignores penta, even as he is not responding to the case that I made on him.

I still dont quite get why Tajo is tied for most votes, the one from Sly makes no sense, and the comment of "Im town" by no means merits a pair of votes that puts someone tied for vote leader about a week to deadline.

The sly votes make some since due to the logic that he is voting tajo under, but again, I dont think the case here is remotely close to what the case on Penta is right now. I just get uncomfortable when I feel that what I am saying gets ignored.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, why Penta over Sly?
Ive read your case and I think that he cant be compared to what Sly is doing currently.

I think penta is more legitimately scummy then Sly is right now. While there have been quite a few moves by Penta that I see as scummy, the main thing with Sly is a really stupid vote, which given how hard he is holding on to it, I am not sure how to classify.

Getting you lynched for your claim is actually harmful to the town, since it has the same effects as a no flip player. We wont know your alignment ever, so will never know about any lylo situation. If Sly has a more indepth case that has more then just your role claim in it, then its something to consider.

I just am not sure at what level of scumminess pushing craplogic is, since from most experiances the person corrects or modifies the argument then challenged. Sly is not the best lynch, but is far from the worst. If it comes down to you or Sly, my vote will go to Sly without much hesitation. I just think Penta is more likely to be scum.

[LlamaFluff]

The reason that tajo is a bad lynch if its not for scummy reasons is his flip is guarenteed to hurt the town. Regardless of what he is, we will not know untill the game ends.

If tajo is town, then we could easily misjudge when lylo is, allowing scum to quickhammer when we dont even think that its a problem. If tajo is scum, it could cause a premature massclaim that hurts the town as we think that we are in a lylo situation when we dont.

The deathmiller may as be a no cardflip player. We gain nothing from his death in the terms of information, so from that standpoint, it is the worst possible lynch we could do. If you would consider tajo scum if he had claimed vanilla, then yes, lynch him. If that would make you think that he is town though, there is no worse move you can make in this situation. This lynch hurts the town, enough said.

While I still would rather have a penta lynch instead of a Sly lynch, it seems like that wont be a possibility, and the lynch of a player who is pushing the lynch of a player that will gain us no information and has little real reason for the lynch looks increasingly decent.

@Mirth - The tracker thing is because I wanted to be sure that any secondary informational roles would know if the millers give them false results too. I talked with FL about a game she played where there was a miller but no cop, and something similar could easily occur here with some sort of twist.

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe if you would get your head out of your hand, YOU would begin to understand what I have been saying. I never said that tajo was scum because he claimed death miller.

Whether he is scum or not, he will flip scum, so as far as the rest of this game is concerned, he is not town. Clear enough for you yet?

He still is a poor policy lynch. He basically is a no cardflip player - This much everyone can agree with. There is no way to ever tell what he is untill the game is over. Here is my problem with his lynch, it gives us absolutely nothing.

Lets say we do lynch him, what does that accomplish? Maybe some role gets lucky, who knows. Most likely though we just get screwed over with scum taking thier pick of night kills to suit them best. Then what? We have nothing to go on day one. We lynched a "who knows?" role. There are no connections to go on, no leads that couldnt of been used the previous day. We are basically at D1 again, with one dead, and not knowing if tajo was scum or not. We will have no clue when lylo is, we will have no clue if connection there are helpful, we are just at a dead end.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets say we do lynch him, what does that accomplish?

If he is scum, we accomplish lynching scum. If he is not scum, he will show up as scum and we accomplish not having doubt his alignment for the rest of the game.

There is no way a mislynch is better than this lynch.

What do you mean "not having doubt his alignment"? You doubt

everyones

alignment. Miller, vanilla, PR, you never know untill they flip. With tajo we wont even know then, someone tracking or something to that extent is the only way to ever prove his alignment as scum.

Most likely though we just get screwed over with scum taking thier pick of night kills to suit them best.

The scum is going to have their pick of who they want to NK whether we lynch tajo or not.

Scum basically get a N0 though with a little bit of information about our suspicions, much worse then a mislynch to me.

Then what? We have nothing to go on day one.

Do you find it "interesting" or "odd" *cough* that Crazy earlier soft claimed miller and after prodding from multiple sources Crazy now states?

Well, yes. You are missing the main point of that argument though. We will have no connections to go on, no matter what alignment tajo is. If he flips town, we get information. If he flips scum, we get information. We can not be sure of his flip though, so no information of this type can be gathered from D1.

I'm not a miller, but I'll just say that the flavor that Tajo mentioned is

really

close to my role PM. (It's best I don't claim now, trust me)

This is just one of many gems from day one where we have something to "go on". I am not saying that Crazy's action is a scum-tell, I am just giving one example that I feel illustrates the fact that there will be plenty to talk about in day 2.

See previous argument. While we have some things to go on, its much less then what we would obtain from a normal lynch. I would for one like to see a few players alignments going into D2, otherwise all the intereactions of D1 are basically a wash.

I don't buy the lylo argument, the death miller's existence in no way makes lylo detection simpler. If anything, it makes it more complex.

Normal mini will be at lylo D3 if no scum lynches have happened. Lets say for this example that tajo is scum, and D3 we have seven alive with no flipped scum but him from today. Now as town we do not know if we have a lylo situation or not. Now lets say we claim and out all of our roles, now scum have all our roles, when we could of kept them hidden for another day.

Same goes for tajo being town, we have seven alive D3 and assume tajo was scum. Town votes for town, scum quickhammers, we lose. Not knowing a role does massive damage to the town. Its why most people hate no flip, why roles like janitor can be very strong, and why a death miller is so difficult to deal with.

[LlamaFluff]

However I must ask how we can know that pop is telling the truth?

However, as farside said, "I suspect one day mafia to pull such a stunt for giggles."

I for one do not like someone starting to cast doubt on a role when they are first not voting for the player, and secondly when the role is death miller which is GUARENTEED to flip scum, and will thus net no information.

You are leaving out the fact that at the time I made that post, you appeared to be buying the claim immediately. I see nothing wrong with asking how we know it is a true claim when players are "buying it" without arguement.

I must ask, why have you not shown suspicion against mirth for the same reason as I? If I recall correctly she voted for you for readily believing the claim. I would say that that that casts doubt on a role.

Mith was acting on a suspicion of "why do you belive it?" which I think is and was a legitimate question. It could be called second level undermining of the role, but it seemed to be more along the lines of getting an explaination for a thought process to me.

Maybe I am reading a few of your posts wrong but it appeared to me that when you were questioning Juls, you were casting doubt on her claim or perhaps trap her.

Not the same situation at all. I saw something that Juls did that I saw as scummy, so I started prodding it. I never cast a vote or acted towards her like I did due to any disbelief of the role, simply because I saw her as scummy, independantly of the role.

The vote comes from the fact that Jules asked to be replaced in the game, when it is oversold into a post that climaxes with this

@Penta - Do you think that Jules replacing out of this game in the way she did is really the best scumtell we have at this point in the game?

Well, going off my memory alone I would have to say that it is one of the most interesting things done in the game so far. I could just be making something out of nothing, but the way she did it just struck me as odd. So, yes, I would have to say it is one of the largest scumtells at this point.

I just like the Penta vote. The entire reasoning for the vote on Juls, which came on page 8, is for the flip out. On top of that it is supposedly the largest scum tell so far in the game. This assessment is made without mentioning any of the other cases that are being pushed at the time.

I really cannot argue with anything here. I was acting rather stupid and voting for a rather silly reason. However, I must state that I posted "One of the largest scumtells" rather than "the largest scumtells". I don't believe you ever asked me for a comment on any of the other cases being pushed but I could be wrong.

Putting the vote on Juls made it the largest scumtell to you, which is why you put your vote there. Also I dont hold responsibility in promting you to give opinions on all the cases. It should be something that occurs from each player (although it sadly doesnt) as the game progresses and people comment on cases, form opinons and so on.

The debate over is what has occurred with Juls being the largest tell continues with this

Again I posted, "One of the largest" and "One of the most interesting".

[/quote]

What made it the largest and most interesting then compared to the other cases and events?

First of all, I always consider people who try and use things like overreaction (over overdefensive for that matter) scummy. Everyone has emotions, flips out, or just melts down at times. It does not mean that they are scum, from my past games I see town do this a LOT more then scum.

My apologies but as you probably already know, I have not been in as many games as you have so I really cannot use past experience in this game.

I still consider over-reactions to be anti-town in most occasions. Does it really help the town to throw a fit and replace out? No, it does not. Does it help the town to state "I don't care anymore, please lynch me!" and then to self-vote? No.

Fair enough with this point. I just think that overreaction is a bad thing to be basing a majority of a case on since its fodder to a established case at best.

The rest of the post though seems to say that apart from the Juls situation the only real “scumtells” that have happened are the miller claims. This is another situation of Penta trying to cast some doubt on the miller claims too, which just concerns me since there has yet to be any reason to call them scum for the claim. All the claim has done is warn investigative roles of wrong results

Would you please show me where I posted that the Miller claims by themselves are scumtells? I do not ever recall posting that.

This quote -

By saying "one of the largest" I meant the following. There have been some rather interesting things happening in the game so far such as the miller claims. While certain things are not scumtells by themselves, they may stack up later in the game. These are really just notes for myself for later in the game should I survive.

Made it sound like the miller claims were one of the largest tells given that they were the only thing mentioned before bringing up scumtells. The use of "stacking up later" makes it sound like you regard them as slightly suspect.

I really don’t know about the sudden move to the SC wagon. While there is some merit to it, the fact that it didn’t happen until there seemed to be some SC hate circulating makes me wary of it. Also the fact that SC was really not even mentioned by Penta before this post, and he heartily had defended that Juls was the scummiest player in the game by quite a bit all make me wary about the case.

I have seen no hate against StrangerCoug so I am unsure what you are speaking of.

Also, would you really let one person convince you not to vote for someone? Can't scum vote for one of their own in an attempt to "clear" themselves? I am quite confused.

He got quite a bit of pressure from Cor early, as well as farside/mirth for the buddying comments. I know about bussing too (am fairly known for it actually), but when my top suspect jumps on a wagon that really isnt established but looks like a push can start it I get wary of it.

Still prefering a Penta lynch to a Sly or Tajo one, even though I apparently am the only one considering any other wagon at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

meta and margarita do not rhyme.

They do if you speak eccentrically.

Also can we get a prod on Electra

[LlamaFluff]

Mod: Believe it or not, I actually have that.

Well I have every single one of these disorders AND hypocondria. Top that.

Also welcome replacement. Deadline stands or extended?

[LlamaFluff]

You doubt

everyones

alignment. Miller, vanilla, PR, you never know untill they flip. With tajo we wont even know then, someone tracking or something to that extent is the only way to ever prove his alignment as scum.

My point exactly:
1. We know, because of the death miller claim, before tajo flips that he will flip scum.
2. No one will waste any

valuable to the town

night actions unneededly on him because he will be dead from the lynch.
3. If he really is scum hiding behind a claim, we lynch scum.
4. If he actually is scum, that negates the lylo and the N0 arguments.
5. Because there is a chance that we will lynch actual scum, this is better than a mislynch.

Amazingly enough, our opinions are based on the same points it seems.

1) Yes he will flip "scum", but we will not know his alignment.
2) I would say outside of a role that beyond a shadow of a doubt can prove he is lying, should never target him. PRs will only be wasted on him if he is telling the truth.
3) We wont know it though, I can easily change that to if we is really telling the truth, we lynch town.
4) If he is actually town, that brings back lylo and N0 arguments. (see this point doesnt work since we dont know his ALIGNMENT).
5) I can do a dice roll and they have a chance at being scum. The thing is we cant classify tajo as a successful or failed mislynch given we dont know his alignment, only flip.

[quote="sly"

Scum basically get a N0 though with a little bit of information about our suspicions, much worse then a mislynch to me.

Your opinion that a mislynch is better than a for sure scum flipping lynch is duly noted.[/quote]

Lynching Tajo ammounts to knowingly lynching a player who has no flip. Given no flip, we have no connections, and cant really use too much of what happened D1. We enter D2 with PRs having a night to act, and mafia getting a kill. Thats all we have to go on, essentially making it a N0 game.

If we lynch a player who flips something, we have connections to go on, PRs have a better idea of who to target, and everything gets better. I would really rather have a mislynch of a scummy player today then lynching tajo.

If he flips town, we get information. If he flips scum, we get information. We can not be sure of his flip though.

He won't flip town. He claimed death miller. That makes him either scum or town that will flip scum. We can be sure of this flip.

We cant do anything with it though, thats my point. By lynching tajo we accomplish nothing known to us. We may of lynched town, we may of lynched scum, we DONT KNOW though. Therefore there is no information attached to his lynch at this point in the game, so I dont want to lynch him, especially as I dont see his actions as scummy.

@Corporate - Three question (no one else answer please)

1) Are you a miller?
2) If yes, are you a death miller?
3) If you are a miller, does your role mention any informational roles apart from cops?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama says:

Lets say we do lynch him, what does that accomplish? Maybe some role gets lucky, who knows. Most likely though we just get screwed over with scum taking thier pick of night kills to suit them best. Then what? We have nothing to go on day one. We lynched a "who knows?" role. There are no connections to go on, no leads that couldnt of been used the previous day. We are basically at D1 again, with one dead, and not knowing if tajo was scum or not. We will have no clue when lylo is, we will have no clue if connection there are helpful, we are just at a dead end.

The problem with this is either tajo is scum or town. I'm trying not to do the whole WIFOM on this. However if tajo looks scummy I will vote for his lynch. I'm not going to be swayed by policy or this flip no information either way. Scum is scum enough said.

If I think that tajo is scum I will be voting for him, same goes for if someone presents a case that I haddent noticed. What Sly is pushing seems mainly to be a policy lynch, which isnt a good thing given his role. Scum is scum, Slys case is not one that seems to support this arguement.

What do you mean "not having doubt his alignment"? You doubt everyones alignment. Miller, vanilla, PR, you never know untill they flip. With tajo we wont even know then, someone tracking or something to that extent is the only way to ever prove his alignment as scum.

Lets not assume or point out things like this hmm. Looks scummy to try and direct power roles.

I am just making a point. There is no way to figure out what tajo ever is untill we have information from some role, or the game is over.

I still think Penta is the lynch for today, even though that idea seems fairly unpopular.

[LlamaFluff]

i think i made myself clear. if you want me to be more specific, i need you to be more specific.

Heh, I think that im going to like this guy.

Allow me to step in here and try to diffuse an argument that is going to go nowhere. as we are getting dangerously close to deadline, we dont have time for it.

Corporate considers his reads to be enough, and he did give a read on most players, even though they really werent backed with indepth reasoning.

I can see why Mirth wants more, but at the same time I dont think it is too needed when compared with how most others are playing. The main debates for "no u" scum arguements have been tajo/sly, which basically overshadows me/penta, even though that one is going on still. Almost everyone though has chosen one of tajo/sly though, corporate has too. I know he did just join and should be giving ideas on everything that is going on, but he took a side on the main arguemnent. He gets blasted for it though, while most of the other voters I really am not too sure of what they think on other debates as well.

Corporate should give opinions on the other happenings, a little more indepth then he has. Mirth needs to calm down a bit though. There are other people who are ignoring things that are going on, and have set in on the tajo or sly idea as well.

So basically, corporate should give more indepth reads on what he thinks about things like my case on penta, what happened with juls, and any other major events. Mirth needs to not single out corporate for been tunneled on the wagons right now, when most people seem to be sharing the same mindset.

[LlamaFluff]

If the only case we have on Slysly is his policy lynch of you.
That is sad. It boils down to a 'reverse policy' lynch anew.

This is actually a good point. We still should be lynching penta but I feel like im talking to a brick wall at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

llama, i understand why you suspect penta but why would penta be a better lynch than tajo or sly

I still think tajo is a weak D1 lynch for all the informational reasons I have mentioned. Especially when he isnt that scummy compared to most other players. The case against Sly isnt the strongest either, and more or less does boil down to "crap arguements". I would rather lynch someone on scummy actions then on a role or crap arguements.

[LlamaFluff]

Ugh this is getting annoying. It seems everyone is ignoring Penta and just making this the false dellima of "Tajo or Sly", which it ISNT. There is not a lot of time left (about three days to deadline), so we need to actually start doing something. The case on tajo is weak, the case that is returned against Sly is even weak as well.

I think Sly might want to claim pretty soon given that his voters are obviously going nowhere, and deadline is in about three days. If wagons and votes need to be adjusted, doing so with time before deadline is better then doing it in the eleventh hour, as we can actually get some conversation out of it first.

@Corporate - For "reads" on penta, I dont see why what others think about him should effect what your opinion on him is. Its fairly rare that what others are doing on D1 should effect your opinions on others since you do not know thier alignment. Forming an opinion independantly to others opinions is probably better practice either way.

[LlamaFluff]

Sly, do you at least get my concern of if we lynch Tajo, even though he flips scum we can not be assured that he is infact scum?

Too many people are lurking in this game for a deadline in three days

[LlamaFluff]

Too many people are lurking in this game for a deadline in three days

Yeah xP I'm getting impatient.

Well you could always do something to get the game moving even if the full cast isnt here right now. Here are a few options

1) Tell me why Sly is scummier then penta.
2) Why using bad logic makes Sly scum.
3) Your opinion on Tajo.

[LlamaFluff]

Sly, do you at least get my concern of if we lynch Tajo, even though he flips scum we can not be assured that he is infact scum?

Yes, that is why I say we get rid of him now so we don't have to worry about it later.

Ugh, this is getting pointless since we both formed completely different perspectives from the exact same data presented to us.

I would rather not lynch tajo (surprise surprise) today. The lynch gives us absolutely nothing to go on tomorrow, since we have one player lynched that we dont know the alignment of, and any flips from the night. Now if we dont lynch him, new doors open. We have the chance of

1) Some other role catching him lying
2) Connections fingering him
3) Knowing how many scum are dead

If tajo is town, we will not know untill the game is over, or we mislynch in a percieved lylo situation without the game ending. If tajo is scum, we wont know untill the game ends, unless there is a lot of vote shuffling in a situation like F5 with one scum dead and no one quick hammers.

I want information from day one. Lynchin tajo will give us none. There are always chances for us to catch him later by either roles or connections, and make the lynch based of scumminess and other information. That is not what is occuring today, and for that reason alone should be enough not to lynch him.

Penta is the lynch still. Sly needs to claim.

[LlamaFluff]

Sly has already chosen the second option which is disappointing given that Penta is scum and a claim might be able to get him lynched. I really dont get why there is a 100% unwillingness to claim, regardless of alignment really there are no benifits (well some but they are complex) for anyone if sly just sits tight.

[LlamaFluff]

suck up .

I wanted to write
A Haiku for you but I
Ran out of syllab

hows that for sucking up?

Anyways

@Penta - Are you trying to call me scum because the only way I can know that you are for sure scum is to be scum myself?

[LlamaFluff]

Im fine with a deadline extension IF AN ONLY IF Sly claims.

Same boat for me. Nothing will change if Sly refuses to claim.

[LlamaFluff]

Well I was kind of off in this game, was right on all the millers being town and corv-town though at least. Kind of glad I got killed... not sure why it was me though, I had secondary suspicions of mirth and farside but that was about it.