Mini 699: Insane Asylum Mafia: Game Over

[Crazy]

Vote: forbiddanlight

Only option here.

[Crazy]

4a) Anyone or anything that reaches lynch count will be lynched, regardless of whether they are actually in the game or not.

Hmm, I happened upon this old thing right here while I was reading the thread. Pay no mind

Hey, I'm still alive?

Lookie, everyone, Forbiddan wants us to lynch her!

(Jester *cough*)

[Crazy]

I hereby apologize for my short content-less posts in my games lately and for my following leave of absence but recent events IRL severely shortened my spare time. I will probably be able to make up for it Sunday. Posting this in all my games.

Content-less posts in the random phase! *gasp*

Tajo, you're really a miller? If you are, then yes, I agree that claiming Day 1 is optimal.

[Crazy]

Meh, I like the Death Miller role. It's bastardly, but it's on the nice end for bastardly.

Tajo's not confirmed, although I don't believe this claim makes him

more

likely to be scum. I'd say about the same chance, possibly a little less.

[Crazy]

I'm not against the miller role, but I am against claiming it or any other role outright. All it does is make the Mafia's job easier.

No, it doesn't, SC.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7461

[Crazy]

2 claims means someone is likely lying.

3 (or 4, *cough*) claims means mod's a bastard.

It's most likely that none of them are lying. If any one of them is, it's Juls.

See, Mana_Ku wouldn't claim at that point as scum in any universe. If two town players just counter-claimed each other, and you're scum, think, do you have any desire to counterclaim them? When the attention is completely off of you?

I have some reason for trusting Tajo here, but trust me in that it's best I don't explain further yet.

Unvote, Vote Electra

Electra, as you said in #76, why do you believe MK's counter-claim is likely to be a scum gambit?

[Crazy]

Been busy the past few days. I'll reread and post tomorrow.

I'm in too many games...

[Crazy]

Hey, I bet you all forgot I was even in this game!

I'm back. One of my mini games ended, and I died in another, so now I'm much more in control.

Okay, now before I get into anything else, something stuck out at me but nobody else seemed to mention it.

Juls claimed that MK claimed the miller role PM she got used almost identical phrasing to the way MK described it... and that now MK should definitely see her as town.

MK, is this true?

If it's not, Juls is like, confirmed scum, right? If it is true, then either they're both town or both scum. I guess you could say that the miller PMs are different and they're both town, but then that would mean that MK described it in the exact way that Juls said hers was written. Now, that just seems like way too much of a coincidence.

So, MK, care to clarify on this? If the answer's no, I'd be happy lynching SG right now.

[Crazy]

Oh, I wouldn't judge Juls by replacing out, and if she really did replace out of her 4 other games, then it's about proven that it's a null-tell.

[Crazy]

crazy, you haven't talked much. anything else you feel like commenting on

Tomorrow. Going to bed now.

[Crazy]

I was prodded. Sorry for not contributing. Working on it, etc.

[Crazy]

Behind again. Will post tomorrow.

[Crazy]

I thought I'd post today, but it's 11:37 PM now and I didn't. Please note that I don't favor lurking as a strategy and I was recently replaced out of Mini 692 because I couldn't keep up with that game either. Though I find this game far more interesting and plan to keep it.

[Crazy]

Hi, I got lazy with this game. I have officially made notes of the first 10 pages. I'll couple them with the other pages and post 'em all tomorrow.

Yeah, you could say I could post my half now, but after what happened during Explosiva, I really don't want to do that. (ask the mod)

[Crazy]

Whoops, didn't catch up like I thought I would... here are my notes from the first 10 pages. I thought I'd better post them

just to prove that I do have

something

. I don't really have much to do tomorrow, so I should be able to catch up

with the rest then.

Warning: The following post likely contains a lot of what you might consider "WIFOM." What I say: Nothing is

WIFOM unless if you're talking about night actions or something similar.

#1 - Miller debate

-

Tajo is very likely to be town.

I'm not a miller, but I'll just say that the flavor that Tajo mentioned is

really

close to my role PM. (It's best I don't claim now, trust me)

-

Juls/Shadowgirl is very likely to be town.

I simply don't believe that a newbie like Juls would try such a gambit

like that. Especially saying things like...

Mana ku's paraphrase of her role is almost identical to what I got and quite frankly I am surprised

forbiddanlight let her post it as a "paraphrase" because it was so close. Manaku should know by now that I am telling

the truth.

and

The reason I say Mana_ku should know I am telling the truth is because I know the language of the role

and her paraphrase is almost identical. How would I know that if I didn't have the language myself? And I also know

now based on Mana_ku's paraphrase that she is indeed a miller.

Yes, I don't believe it proves anything... but just

saying

it makes her likely to be town.

-

Mana_Ku is very likely to be town.

Reasoning: If the attention is not on you, and you're scum, why would you

take it

off

yourself? Yeah, that's WIFOM-y, but I am the master of WIFOM logic. Usually it doesn't apply because

the person doing *insert whatever* wasn't likely to think that it made them look town... as in this case.

-Note the string of 3 posts #130 (Llamafluff), #131 (SC agreeing with LF), #132 (Penta double-agreeing)

And I disagree with all three! Whee! Claims aren't the heart of mafia, but they're the fun part. I'm never gonna play a

game like a vanilla game unless if it

is

a vanilla game. I conclude that the miller claims make all three likely to be

town. Throwing that away and focusing on "scum-hunting" is ridiculous.

#2 - If Corvuus is scum, the post restriction is

real

. I don't believe a newbie would fake a post restriction. I mean,

that's even less likely than claiming miller out of the blue. I'm not ruling out that scum can have post restrictions, but

I'm almost positive that the restriction isn't faked.

#3 - Corvuus vs. LlamaFluff (pg. 6)

I disagree about Corvuus' flavor claim, but for different reasons than Llama. It's not that it's too hard to find whether a

PM has "flavor," it's more about that it lets the scum more easily find power roles.

#4 - farside vs. SC (pg. 7)

farside: Some statement about SC sucking up to players.
SC: I never sucked up to you. Vote farside.
farside: I didn't say that. I was talking about *insert whatever*
SC: Oops, I got confused with your grammar. I thought you were talking about me sucking up to you. Well, in that

case, I did suck up, but that's a null-tell anyway. Unvote

See what happened here? SC dismissed the argument without actually saying

why

it was a null-tell. You can

blame the whole thing on tense confusion, but that really isn't the heart of the matter. If you think buddying up is a

null-tell, say

why

.

#5 - Juls getting replaced. Newbie got frustrated. 'Nuff said.

However, I am going to Vote: Juls because I find it odd that she asked for a replacement when people began to focus on

her and ask her questions. I will even say that her last post seems like an Appeal for Emotion for whoever her

replacement is. I am not moving this vote until someone can convince me to.

This is terrible. Really, who actually replaces out of a game as scum in order to help their team win? I really don't

expect anyone to sink that low. That's just plain ethics. So I don't think your accusation has any merit.

Juls is the center of my attention right now, and I do believe that she replaced out out of frustration. I'm not going to

advocate for her towniness, but I have as little idea as to her alignment as I did when she claimed miller.

This works.

No, she replaced out of all her games. Then not to forget that this was her 5th game in which she played

and to remember that all of them are still ongoing. There's no meta which is usable.

Yeah, if she was being replaced in all her games it's just a serious null-tell.

#6 - Tajo vs. Stef

I haven't contributed yet because i don't consider i had anything to comment on..

Call it scummy or whatnot. However when i do post and ask a question to start a discussion in a pretty good direction (

isn't it in your opinion? ) you attack me? Why? It wasn't a vote-worthy reason.

LOLWTF?
This must be like the tenth time you are facing three claimed millers, right?

Have to agree.

I agree. I was just trying to pressure ShadowGirl. Failed so far.. so..

Unvote

Mmmmm. I dont like this.

And... have to agree again.

Unorganized quote(s):

the only thing I can think of right now to add is that I find Corvuus rather interesting. I am not sure how I feel about

him. I am however against telling others our flavor. I think that would help the scum now more than town.

Using words like "interesting" or "odd" is a scum-tell. *cough*

[Crazy]

I will be V/LA for the next few days. Here are my notes for what I've done so far. Sorry for being inactive, yada yada. I really need a break from mafia after I finish this game and my 2 other ones.

Summary: I am not a miller.

Vote: Sly

Probably Town:

4. Shadowgirl
7. Llamafluff
8. Corvuus
10. Populartajo
11. Mana_Ku corporate

Middle of the Line:

1. farside
3. StrangerCoug
12. Electra

Scummiest:

5. Pentadragon
6. Mirth
9. SlySly

Pages 11-19

[llama. for the record, i tend not to lay off the newbs just because they're newbs. i might be more tolerant of their mistakes personally and will probably explain my actions to a much greater degree, but i see no reason to treat them in a special manner because that isn't teaching them how to play the game by letting them get away with being scummy. then again, im just mean to everyone. farside can attest to this since she's neglected to mention that i've been like this in every game i've played with her.]

It's all about what you consider "scummy." A lot of things that newbies do that would be scummy for other players are not scummy for newbs. Meta. It's awesome.

Posting to avoid a prod. Nothing new to contribute.

You know you are not voting anyone. There is conversation going on and this is the best you offer?

Is this just your playing style?
Lurking, not stating anything worthwhile?

It seems like you are eager to point out faults.
But in terms of scumhunting, you just kick back and waltz.

You have the scummiest anti-town play style to me.
But is it how you are; or a mafia plea.

So give a definite opinion on something quick!
Otherwise, you are my #1 choice for mafia pick.

This is just weird. SC had been posting way more content than me and

he

got picked as scummy for it instead of me. I mean, Tajo jumping on Stef earlier was one thing, but SC

had

actually been contributing? I personally don't see what makes him scum from that one post.

Something I noticed though when I was rereading

I don't. I find it odd to ask for a counterclaim for a miller, but then again, I haven't encountered millers in a game before either, but even so I believe it's uncommon to find

two

of them in a game.

I thought it was three. Tajo, MK and you.

[/quote]
Cool. I don't see it as a scum-slip though, due to my WIFOMish belief that SG is town.

Pentadragon's case on SC is okay, I guess.

In Electra's #316, I don't see how Kingdom mafia is relevant (I was in that game as well). The other links were removed (assumedly ongoing), so I dunno.

I was thinking in something. Since we have like 3 claimed millers here would it be good that all players claim if they are millers or not?

Err, I assumed anybody else that was a miller would have claimed by now.

I understand. I'm one of those mod's that really don't like to mod kill unless necessary and find ways to figure what is best to do. I got the impression from your post you feel the same way.

Not that this is game related, but I agree with this when my mod turn comes up in the Open Queue in a couple weeks or so.

Yes, I do think its a good idea that everybody claim if they are millers or not. I dont want posterior "new miller" scenarios.

I am not a miller, though as I said before, something similar to a death miller that affects my reveal upon death.

First of all, I always consider people who try and use things like overreaction (over overdefensive for that matter) scummy. Everyone has emotions, flips out, or just melts down at times. It does not mean that they are scum, from my past games I see town do this a LOT more then scum.

Cheers to you; people don't say this enough. Rest of the post (#343) is good too.

Ooh, I see SC caught my breadcrumb there.

This game isnt hard, farside Mirth. Three/four millers are indeed new but they dont make the game difficult at all. I bet that I catched him lurking (since he was posting in his other games) and couldnt come out with a good post after it.

Tajo, if he was lurking on purpose, then why would he get replaced? o_0

It doesn't add up, unfortunately.

@Tajo: I don't understand why we need to wait for Mana when you, yourself can confirm/deny the tracker part...?

What is this? If a tracker investigates him, what would happen? My guess would be nothing, judging from the flavor.

Stef is a different case than Crazy since he said that he wasnt posting because he thought the game was hard. Tell me everyone, does this game seem hard to you?

It's medium. Fast posting but relatively short posts.

Going for the easy target Juls/Shadowgirl.
-snip-
Nice backtrack there.

I agree with those parts of the Stef case, as before.

Then don't reference it, especially when the way you said it made it sound like you were buddying up to me. Now I know how Mirth and LlamaFluff felt.

Oh, please...

I suggest mish mash games if you want friends. Not mafia games.

FOS: tajo

I'm not will to lynch you at this time, but I don't care for people using that method it is scummy to try and say, but ah we are friends why the hate.

Woah, what the? What Tajo said was obviously just some sort of friendly banter... and I'm sure Tajo is capable of drawing the line between "You're my friend" and "You're town."

I strongly disagree that pop is "essentially confirmed". We cannot assume that the scum do not have special information the rest of us do not. When we ass ume, you make an ass out of me and u. We should be lynching people based on how scummy they act, not on a claim whatever it may be.

I quite honestly do not recall a Mirth attempting to get others to lynch pop. At the most, I remember Mirth questioning and slightly suspicous but never advocation the lynch of popular. I would be greatful if you could point out where Mirth posted this Electra.

I wouldn't be surprised if you and Mirth were scum together.

How exactly do you get a confirmed player on Day 1 in a day start again? Yeah, I'm in disagreement as well.

I did it in a MOUNTAINOUS NIGHTLESS setup once! I'm sure it can be done here.

7. The flavor argument is not worth discussing. Roles are what make the theme games different. Flavor

should be

just theme based wording more or less for fun.

Fixed for you. Flavor can help, though it's not supposed to... and yeah, it's jackassery-ish.

I understand Ptajo's play. I feel like all of us, town and scum alike, try to avoid scummy behaviors to avoid being lynched. But to Ptajo, he feels like he's a confirmed town, so he's not going to bother with hiding scumlike behavior.

I think lynching Ptajo is dumb, especially before we go to night so we can see if we have a vigilante to deal with the millers in are stead. I don't really understand why people are so set on this Mafia having special information thing, I find it uncommon and unlikely.

The first paragraph is true. When I was confirmed in Lovers Multiball, I really didn't bother trying to look town at all. I just posted random scum-lists, repeatedly tunneled on my targets without great reasoning, etc. It was fun. Though Tajo isn't playing that bad. I'm not even sure that he thinks he's confirmed.

And yeah, lynching Tajo tells us nothing at this point. I don't find him that scummy, anyway.

sly; actually there were 6 masons. i think you're forgetting my scum partner and his sk mason partner in that game. but yes. that was fun. i miss being your bestest best friend Razz i will stop reminiscing about the joy of playing with your head in that game and get to disagreeing with you.

OMG, BUDDYING UP AGAIN! (/sarcasm)

Of course there is a possibility populartajo is scum. As long as no living player is confirmed, in purely mathematical terms the same possibility exists that e.g. Mirth, LlamaFluff, Corvuus, and even I are scum. Basically, saying "there is a possibility that he is scum" tells us nothing.

Using your brain (and not just the scum-hunting part) can help shift those odds a bit. And if you want to get literal here, there's really NOTHING that can absolutely confirm a player.

-Cop gets an innocent on Player X and a guilty on Player Y. Player Y is lynched as scum, cop is night-killed.
-Player X is confirmed? No, maybe the mod's a bastard and 50% of the time the cop always gets an innocent result.

See, no matter what situation you throw, there's always a chance of a particular person being scum. So where's the line between confirmed and non-confirmed? See, it's not about that, it's about "more likely" and "less likely" to be scum, and sometimes you don't even need to scum-hunt to know that. (As the miller claim shows)

Pff, reading where I got this from, apparently this mess applies more to SlySly than to SC. In which case, I agree with SC, I guess.

His actions don't matter. He will flip scum and will no longer be a worry.

Woah, woah, dude, what? He's a worry if he's a mislynch!

also im not liking your unnecessary town claim. you earn an fos from me for that.

And

that's

the thing that bothers you most about Sly?

SC, I understand your faceplant, but his actions don't really matter. We have a legitimate reason to lynch him now. We are 18 pages in, I know that isn't too much and I am not trying to rush the day, but I have not seen a case presented yet that has better odds of lynching someone who will flip scum that what I have put forth.

Flip scum? Yeah, of course he'll flip scum!

No one is going to waste an investigation on the claimed death miller. That is good reason for scum to claim this role. It gives a wifom explaination for any wasted investigation results against him, so for the rest of the game wifom absorbs that player forcing more complexity in town decisions. I say nip the problem in the bud so you can better focus on other things.

Now this is bad. You basically just said why it's good to claim miller if you're scum. Well, yeah, we've been through this already... it's kind of basic. The thing is, it's also a good idea to claim miller

as miller

.

And the discussion won't end there, either. Through the rest of the game, we wouldn't even know if we were dealing with 2 scum or 3. (presumably; 3's the standard number for a mini)

Remind me to vote you at the end of this post.

i see crazy still has not deigned it necessary to share his opinion on anything. this bothers me

Sorry about that. Heh. It's coming, and on my reread I have deemed that this game is awesome.

[Crazy]

I finished my reread during the night, guys. I'm all caught up now.

I do see that Corvuus' "disappointment" thing could be a scum-slip. And to be honest, I don't buy his explanation at all. I mean, I've never been disappointed when a scum was lynched...

One other thing I noticed early game... did anyone else catch this?

Mirth, my friend:
I have no PR; just pretend.

Fairly Crazy, Fairly Sane,
....Rhyming hurts my brain.

Explain the first stanza, please.

[Crazy]

Okay, so Corvuus has a different obvious post restriction every day but isn't allowed to say that he has one... that I can believe.

Corvuus views his statement as not showing 'knowledge' of certainty of alignment but knowledge of certainty that Sly's alignment didn't matter at all at that point. Town was going to lynch a anti-town player (scum or town) but in case of scum, we wouldn't know buddying, etc. and in case of town; what did we gain from the lynch other than knowing he is VT and was an extremely anti-town player that we don't have to listen to anymore?

I really don't buy that Sly would be a non-information lynch if he was scum. There would still be people on his wagon, and his own interactions with Tajo. Yeah, you could say that that is WIFOM, but still I don't see how Sly gave out substantially less information than anyone else if they flipped scum.

[Crazy]

Posting to avoid prod. Will look into this game tonight.

[Crazy]

Oh, sorry for the triple post, but I would really like an opinion out of Crazy. Didn't like the post to avoid prod. Those always bug me. Going to go back to trying to sleep off the cold.

I was at school when I posted that. But yeah, that is no excuse for my lurking. I'll just say what I've been saying, and that since I've been lurking badly in all my games recently, it's a null-tell.

First of all, yeah, Sly

did

look like scum. I mean, his actions weren't just weird or unorthodox, they were SCUMMY. Lynching a Death Miller Day 1 as a policy lynch is just horrible.

Now I've been thinking about it, and I think it's a waste to lynch Tajo any time before Lylo. If he's town, we wouldn't know it; and if he's scum, we wouldn't know it. Thus, we'd be getting no

real

information from his wagon. Thus, lynching someone whom we know the alignment of upon death will give us one further wagon to analyze if/when we hit lylo.

About Corvuus, I think I've changed my mind about him. The way he was acting against the Sly wagon

does

qualify him to make that "disappoint" thing. I just know I've said some things that are similar when I disapproved of a wagon. (Open 94 (Megatheory) and Mini 675 (Electra)) come to mind.

[Crazy]

Crazy, I don't care about volumn of posting, i care about content of posting. Why do yu think a Tajo lynch would b a waste before lylo? What if he acts scummy.

Would you lynch a claimed cop Day 1? Similar scenario here. We gain absolutely zero information from a Tajo lynch... since we wouldn't even know his alignment. The only way we

would

be able to discern his alignment is if he was lynched in Lylo and the game kept going.

[Crazy]

Yet we're not talking about day 1. We're now talking about any day between day 1 and lylo. With Tajo dead, LYLO doesn't change. That is, if we do lynch Tajo, we assume LYLO at the same number of people remaining as we would if Tajo were still alive. Oh, speaking of that, somethings been bothering me.

Mod: can you confirm if the mafia is the only antitown faction, as suggested by you first post?

Assume Tajo is town. We wouldn't know it... so we wouldn't be able to get any information from the wagon. We'd be in Lylo tomorrow with no information from Day 2.

Now if we lynched a

different

townie we'd actually be getting information from that lynch/wagon, right? We'd still be in Lylo tomorrow, but Day 2 wouldn't have been a waste.

Granted, if Tajo was scum, it would help to lynch him, but the benefit from lynching Tajo-scum today rather than Tajo-scum in Lylo is minuscule.

And of course, by lynching someone else, we have the extra benefit of actually lynching scum

and knowing that we did.

[Crazy]

Corvuus doesn't see why death miller claim is bad for scum if the death miller most likely wouldn't be lynched until 'lylo'. So, yes it draws attention, but because of 'zero information', no one would want to lynch DM unless extremely scummy... but even then it gives zero information, so town waits until lylo despite the actions the DM makes?

If we lynched Tajo in lylo and the game didn't end, we'd know he was scum.

Crazy, you don't seem to get my point. It doesn't matter when Tajo dies, assuming he dies, because our assumption of when LYLO is would be the same. His flip would be meaningless until the end of the game, but the conservative estimate we have to make about when LYLO happens will be regardless of whether he lives or dies.

That's right, but we'd have more information in a lylo situation where we lynched a townie today rather than a "perceived lylo" if we lynched Tajo today.

Look at it this way:

Tajo is town:
-Lynch today = we gain no information = "perceived lylo" tomorrow.
-Lynch a different townie today = we do gain information = lylo tomorrow, but with more information
-Lynch scum today = W00T!

Tajo is scum:
-Lynch today = we gain no information = "perceived lylo" tomorrow, though we would have at least lynched scum.
-Lynch a different townie today = we do gain information = lylo tomorrow, but with more information.
-Lynch scum today = W00T!

Bottom line:

If Tajo is scum, there's no benefit from lynching him today rather than lynching him tomorrow.

[Crazy]

Crazy, you still don't get it. If Tajo is scummy enough to be lynched at some point, it would not matter at which point he would be lynched. Lynching him at LYLO produced no information that lynching him before LYLO doesn't produce.

Okay, I'll grant you that. If Tajo was so obvscum that there would be absolutely zero chance he was town, then yeah, might as well lynch him.

Do you think Tajo is obv 100% scum?

[Crazy]

Okay, we got the same conclusion, different reasons, then. Whatever.

[Crazy]

Corporate isn't scummy. Just because he doesn't have a tangible meta on this site doesn't mean he's lying about it. Seriously.

What are the chances he's making up this meta, anyway? I bet even if he's scum, this is how he usually plays anyway.

[Crazy]

Tomorrow.

[Crazy]

Mirth, do you think Mana_Ku's miller claim made corporate more or less likely to be scum? Now, "can't" is a strong word, so I wouldn't say he can't be scum because of it, but seriously,

why?

Yeah, sure, it helped him in the long run, but Mana_Ku was pretty much a newbie, and I really doubt many newbies use WIFOM with claiming.

[Crazy]

I <3 board games. And since I just got an order in the mail, I've been out of mafia for the past 3 days (check all my site posts if you like).

Since I noticed Forbiddan just posted in Mafia Discussion, I will mark this post as a placeholder so I shall not be prodded (since I think one more prod = replacement). I will actually look into this

game

before I go to bed tonight, and since it's almost 10:00 now, that shouldn't be long.

[Crazy]

Okay, it looks like the only choices here are Mirth or Electra. And, well, I'm not going to vote a claimed power role outside of Lylo.

Vote: Electra

Personally, I think the probability of Mirth being scum is higher than Electra (doc is an easy scum-claim, and really I don't see Corvuus as a likely target; I'll have to look through Mirth's posts to see her opinions of Corvuus D1), but as with all cases like this, there's no benefit over lynching Mirth-scum today rather than Mirth-scum tomorrow, right?

[Crazy]

A massclaim might be a good idea. I'll of course support it if we decide to do it.

And... coroporate's death is pretty good. He wasn't that useful to the town and his death proves the existence of millers in this game. So... weird NK choice.

I think Mirth is likely scum. I just don't believe in lynching power roles outside of lylo.

[Crazy]

Since Corvuus asked for my claim, here it is:

I'm a Compulsive Petty Thief. Each night, I must steal a random item from any player, which roleblocks them. I will keep this item until the following night when I steal something else, which means that if I die I will show up as whatever role that player was, because when they look through my possessions they will see that other person's belongings. Oh, and I can't steal from the same person twice in a row.

My Day 1 soft-claim proves that even if this was a fake-claim, I was planning it for a while.

N1 I stole from Electra. Last night I stole from Farside. I purposely picked people close to the middle of my scumlist, since scum teams never have the scummiest person on their team send in their kills, right?

I was considering claiming Day 2, since I could either confirm an innocent or convict a scum upon my lynch, but then I decided against it. If I was lynched Day 2, and was revealed as a Vanilla Townie, then Electra would just be NKed that night. If I was revealed as scum, there's a good chance that you guys would just think that I was scum trying to frame a random townie.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like my role

did

anything (except possibly roleblock farside if she has a power role; certainly she didn't send in the corporate NK)

Now here's another interesting point: the mod said that my action takes place

prior

to the NKs, so if I am killed during the night, I will role reveal as the person I steal from

that night

. So, we might as well use that to our advantage. You guys can tell me who to investigate tonight, and then, if I'm NKed, the town gets a free cop investigation.

[Crazy]

Oh, for the popcorn, I pick SC next.

[Crazy]

Crazy:

When you steal, does it tell you the item you stole?

Corvuus

No.

[Crazy]

hmmm...

So when you steal an item (let's say Night 1) you hold and keep that item for all of day 2 and only on night 2 do you return it and go steal another item from a different player? and it doesn't tell you the item you stole but only reveals it upon death...

Yeah, pretty much. Though I'm not sure if it reveals the actual item on death or not.

Well, your still being alive at this point seems off, Mirth. If you're town, then you're most likely roleblocked. (My paranoia is actually suggesting that you and Corvuus are scumbuddies.) I can test it by asking the claimed powers if they've been blocked to their knowledge, though...

This is scummy logic. A doctor is a weak power role, so keeping a doc alive doesn't hurt the scum greatly. And since Mirth had aroused quite a bit of suspicion already, I wouldn't expect her to die, scum or town.

This isn't to defend Mirth, just to show that "OMG claimed power role survived the night" isn't a valid attack.

So, everybody must have an item, right?

I suppose.

And yes, I

support a Mirth full-claim.

Not sure what exactly she hasn't claimed yet.

Crazy's claim as what I know as a theif role with some modifications seem a bit off to me.

Well, if I'm lynched today it will reveal your identity, though that will most likely end the game, unless if there's a vig somewhere.

[Crazy]

Wooh, site went down. Just posting to show that I'm still here, and I'll post tomorrow.

[Crazy]

Okay, first of all, I saw that some people are expressing concern about my soft-claim. Seriously, that's the one thing that I thought nobody would question: If I was scum, at least I'd been planning this fake-claim since the beginning.

I can't make any sense of Crazy's claim either, but probably because I would think a thief would know what he's stolen. I'm trying not to play mod WIFOM, but it doesn't fit with soft-claiming a fourth miller on Day 1, regardless of whether or not it's a day start and/or if he got a head start.

Oh, please, don't tell me I didn't soft-claim right. I said outright that I

wasn't

a miller and that I had flavor similar to Tajo's (the search-through-my-stuff-once-I-die-thing).

My current suspicions involve him too. If all three mllers claimed at once, and his soft claim was to actually soft claim miller, then that doesn't prove he was soft claiming thief, just watching his back.

Actually, I said it to get people off Tajo's back... or to at least think that if he's scum, I'm scum too.

See, the similarity between the flavor of mine and Tajo's role makes me think that Tajo is way too likely to be town.

And also, if I was going to claim miller, I'd claim miller on Day One when everyone else was! Seriously.


Is Korlash confirmed and I missed something? I just found this quote from Penta Day 1:

Wouldn’t refusal to claim result in a Cop (assuming there is one) wasting an investigation.

I would assume that any (sane) cop would try to get the miller lynched.

By the next day there are two less pro-town players.

How could she say that and yet never even try to lynch Corvuus after getting a guilty on him Night 1?

[Crazy]

Because there's more then a strong implication I'm insane...

Okay, nevermind then. If anything then Penta's quote there could be seen as a breadcrumb. Well done.

Then explain this from Day 1:

2 claims means someone is likely lying.

3 (or 4, *cough*) claims means mod's a bastard.

If I wanted to claim

miller

, I would have claimed

miller

. Why go through those shenanigans, when certainly if I claimed miller later, I'd be called out on it for not claiming when the other millers claimed?

The purpose of that post was to

breadcrumb

, since I wasn't exactly a miller, but I had some part of my role that is

similar

to a miller. That's why I said *cough*

Now I was hoping that nobody would notice that post and I could use it as a breadcrumb when I

did

claim. But then when people noticed I explained myself.

Later, after being inactive for a while (IIRC, I was in way too many games at that point.), I posted this:

I'm not a miller, but I'll just say that the flavor that Tajo mentioned is really

close to my role PM. (It's best I don't claim now, trust me)

The similarity to Tajo's role is:

because when they look through my possessions they will see that other person's belongings.

And if I were to die, people will look at my things and due to my useless gun I will be remembered as mafia.

This is why I believe that Tajo is town, due to similar flavorishness. And you guys can believe that with the Korlash/Corvuus link, so you should be able to believe it here.

Has everybody missed the part where Coug is blatantly lying?

Well, I did. What was it?

[Crazy]

Been lazy. Here's my response to whatever I missed.

If you weren't a miller then why did you say "Or 4"? That's not a crumb saying you are "LIKE" a miller, that's one saying you ARE a miller. You can't count as a 4th miller unless you are "exactly a miller" you know what I mean? If this was a real crumb, I'm sorry man but you need to work on your crumbing...

I'll admit it was bad, however I'm sure you can see that it would make absolutely

no

sense to crumb miller when 3 people had already fully claimed miller. As either scum or town,

why would I?

Also no comments about how its really really weird that Crazy is trying to link himself to Tajo? No protown reason to do this in the least, and makes no sense anyways.

Because I have a strong inclination that Tajo is town, due to similar flavorishness. Doi.

-Crazy, in post 87, mentions the possibility of 4 millers. Then he spend something like 10 pages neither confirming nor denying his status. Crazy, what are your thoughts on this.

You can see that I was not involved in the game during that point. I really wasn't even reading the thread, so I didn't even see if people noticed my crumb or not. In my next real post, you can see I confirmed that I wasn't a miller.

And nobody has any issue with the actual Day 1 soft-claim, right? That all fits in with what I said. I'll just admit that the "crumb" was poorly worded, and I really wasn't expecting anyone to notice it. (Yes, I've never breadcrumbed before in a game.)

Crazy is doing something similar where he is saying his role's similarity to Tajo confirms him (and cops should buy into this as well) and it just seems 'bleh'.

Woah, woah, I never said that. Me being town would mostly confirm Tajo, but not the other way around, since Tajo claimed first. If you think I'm trying to confirm myself here, show me.

And Ive been wondering all this time, why is Coug still alive?
Coug is scum.

I didn't see it. Can someone explain to me why SC is scum?

Then prob FL would have used another sentence.
So, girl, do you think there are cops?, only a cop?, no cops at all? Of all the claimed cops, who do you believe is telling the truth?

This wasn't directed at me, but due to the similarities between Korlash's and Corvuus' abilities (UnNKability, right?), I think they share the same alignment. Probably town, because that would make more sense balance-wise, and because of Penta's "no sane cop would..." crumb.

The fact that you atually call it a breadcrumb when it clearly isn't is interesting. How exactly is saying there are 4 millers a breadcrumbt that he isn't a miller? Also, seeing as how you are scum also, another cum trying to confirm you isn't all that hard to believe.

I wasn't breadcrumbing that I was "not a miller;" I was breadcrumbing that I was "similar to a miller." If I was a miller, I'd say something like:

"This is insane, because I'm also a miller."

The way that I was indirect shows that I was

not

trying to breadcrumb miller.

You said "everyone thinks farside is scum" that is false. As far as I go, it is PoE. From Corv's last post I assume it's PoE for him as well. I don't care if YOU have a case or not, "EVERYONE" doesn't.

Well, actually I can see that, since both sides of this debate seem to have farside as the last scum by Process of Elimination, right? Why do we have to pick between sides when we share some common ground.

It seems farfetched for scum to claim to come up to cops as guilty and will flip guilty if lynched?

When 2 other people claim millers after him,

yes, yes, yes.

I've found lately that asking why players are still alive is a scum tell. FoS: populartajo.

LOLZ, didn't you ask why Mirth and me were still alive earlier? And making up fake scumtells is a scum-tell. (Except when I did it in Open 86. )

So this is the real progression of events.

1180. You dont like my farside vote. You FOS me.
1188. I DONT present my farside case in more detail. I said why you dont wait for my case before you say you dont like it because I was going to post it after analyzing Mirth
1191. You UNFOS me. Reason : you are satisfied with my farside case.
1195. Farside asks you what part of my case in 1188 do you think is valid. (Logical question because I didnt have a case in farside at the time)
1198. I FINALLY make a case against farside.
1206. You use my reasons in 1198 for supporting your UNFOS in 1191 and for answering farside in 1195.
So, fail.

So what is the bad thing here? Coug obv didnt read post 1188 (where I attack Mirth and not farside) but however he UnFoSed me because he felt satisfied with my explanation. He's obv lying here and its IMPOSSIBLE for him to confuse Mirth with farside because the word Mirth is in every paragraph of that post. The only way I could believe that he made a mistake is if he had skimmed that post. But we know he didnt because he did read all the post to satisfy his suspicions. Unless he is lying obv and never read that post.

Actually, I can seriously buy this. This makes sense to me.

So you are pushing a two GF theory...

It is not Coug I think is making no sense...

Why do you think that neither you nor Corvuus can be paranoid or naive, respectively? Other than the word "Insane" in the title?

b) It makes as much sense as me being paranoid and Corv being Naive. But as neither of us has any reason to believe any of these to even suggest it is just reaching on your part to justify your thoughts.

That's ridiculous. Tajo was just saying that "2 Godfathers" isn't the only way of justifying it.

Yes, Coug did lie. Obviously your case was not "clearified" and he did not "understand the case." But this only proves laziness, inability to read well, in the most non-insulting way I can manage: stupidity on his part. What it does not prove is that he is scum.

The thing is, townies have no incentive to lie. How SC imagined he read a case on farside doesn't make sense.

Oops. So that COMPLETELY blows up the two-godfather theory. Who did Corvuus investigate other than me, then?

Unless if Korlash is paranoid or insane... which are pretty much the only options for him.

Wait, why arent we no lynching?

Dang, you're right! The scum can't kill

both

cops!!!!!! We really have nothing to lose.

Crazy: Don't believe your claim. Can you give any breadcrumbing, reasoning or anything else that will help convince us you aren't lying? Also who is your scum picks?

I'd guess SC/farside/Mirth. And work around with possible GFs and/or cop sanities and there are multiple ways of justifying that.

So you were given a result on someone who died that same night... interesting...

I don't see why that's notable.

Now... In our situation, the first glance best play does appear to be no lynch. However, there's always risk to it. The cops investigations might not prove anything and we would be here tomorrow in the same situation with someone dead. Theres also the risk the doc is one of those 50/50 protect or kill doctors, so theoretically there could be two possible NKs tonight, meaning if they are both town we lose. And yes I recognise the good stuff we gain from no lynching too.

I really don't think that the chance of Mirth being a "50-50 doc" is enough to sway off of NL-ing. All the other possibilities are positive or neutral... so I support it.

Mirth: I know crazy's "so called breadcrumb". I think it is crap. I am asking for any OTHER breadcrumbs in addition and such to help his claim/argument, etc. If that is the only point then i don't believe him.

Forget the breadcrumb. Check my soft-claim... it's in a long post on Day 1. It fits exactly with what I said on Day 3.

Corv, he doesn't have any that help his argument. He just latches onto Tajo and goes "look at him, his flavour confirms mine"

Pff. If I'm town, Tajo's town. If Tajo's town, I could be anything.

You have no support of me ever saying that.

Yes, it 'would' be nice if Scum helped us out and killed someone for us but 'WHY' would they and why would we assume they would?

If they don't kill anyone, then we GET MORE COP INVESTIGATIONS!!!!!

I also dislike 'reactive' town. I feel town has the tempo/momentum and we should be using it and pushing. Giving scum a night to talk and regroup just seems incredibly stupid.

Night-talk is overrated. There's not much the scum can say to each other when everybody has already claimed. All the points of action are obvious.

Are you actually arguing giving scum power to decide something is a good thing?

When is "more cop investigations" ever a

bad

thing? As I see it, you and Corvuus are practically confirmed, so the scum is confined to kill

one

of you. What's the issue here?

Tajo, I never said I wasnt a weak doc. I said I dont know. I don't know the mod's contingencies here.

Considering that the millers all knew they were millers, I doubt that a weak doc wouldn't know she was a weak doc. It's too bastardly. Even if you're "rusty," making you die whenever you target mafia is just too bastardly, considering FL's use of millers was unbastardly.

This is a false dillema. If we lynch somebody other than Crazy—that includes you—and he or she turns out to be scum, the game continues.

If Tajo is scum, I am too. So really, there's no benefit to lynching Tajo instead of me. RIGHT?

I believe Mirth is a non-killing doc (50-50 succeed or dont, but not kill) since she protected me twice and I haven't died. If she was a killing doc, then voting no lynch is even MORE insane since then there could be two night kills, 1 from the doc and 1 from scum and it is a losing strategy.

Dude, if Mirth was a Quack, then certainly you would have died by now. I can't believe these crap arguments for opposing No Lynch. If she's a 50-50 succeed doc, which is a crappy role, but not bastardly, then there's still no harm in going to night.

So how could this situation not be auto-lose for scum? If Crazy is a scum thief, steals a cops' bulletproofness, mirth doesn't protect the right one or fails and the NK goes through.

Then we start tomorrow with 1 dead cop... who are virtually all but confirmed now so guess what, our odds didn't improve AT ALL.

THE OTHER COP WOULD HAVE AN INVESTIGATION! And even if I am a scum RBer/thief/whatever, and I block one cop and a different scum kills the other one, we wouldn't be in a better situation but we wouldn't be in a substantially

worse

one either.

So let me get this straight. Possibilities going into night:

-One cop dies; the other gets another investigation = BETTER POSITION
-Neither cop dies because Mirth is somehow town and protected the right person = BETTER POSITION
-One cop dies and I'm a scum RBer and I block the other one = VERY MINIMALLY WORSE POSITION.

See, there's very little to lose here.

Maybe he's the anti-death miller role to counterbalance it for scum. (Even though three millers is kinda sucky.)

I don't get what you mean...

You may have a point.
But there is something that doesnt fit. He says he steals items but farside and Coug have no items. Mirth, if we believe her as a power role, says that she even as a doctor doesnt have one. What item could Crazy steal of them? SG, do you have an item?

Actually, my impression was that the whole "thief" thing was complete flavor and had no game relevance except to justify my ability. Really, if everybody had an item I could steal, then wouldn't that prove my role and make it broken?

Oh, and this probably won't make a difference, but I was under the impression that I couldn't claim my exact role (flavor) name without it counting as "jackassery." I asked the mod about it later and she said I could, so anyway, I'm a

Kleptomaniac

. Anyway, that makes more sense with the "insane" theme, but nobody was questioning the theme relevance anyway, so meh.




And...

Vote: No Lynch

Seriously, it's the best option. Get off your pompous butts and admit it.

[Crazy]

Crap, I thought I'd have time to do this game today, but something came up.

I'll post tomorrow.

[Crazy]

So, so, sorry guys. I didn't post on Friday night due to laziness, and then my internet access got affected over the weekend. I am seriously going to reread tonight and post what I have to in the next 5 hours or so.

And yes, I know deadline is tomorrow, and if nothing new has happened (which I'll check in a second), I still think that a NL is the best course of action.

[Crazy]

I am seriously going to reread tonight

Btw, that means "read what I missed," not "look back over the whole game."

[Crazy]

Let's add lurking to Crazy's crimes.

I am lurking because I'm sick of mafia and some crap has come up recently. Shut up.

Shut up. All of you. Everything about my role/breadcrumb/softclaim is in my previous posts. Do you want me to keep restating it? I WAS NOT GOING TO CLAIM MILLER; IT MAKES NO SENSE. WHY WOULD I CLAIM MILLER; AM I AN IDIOT?!!!!!

Of course it was a BREADCRUMB; if I was CLAIMING MILLER, I WOULD CLAIM MILLER!!! That's why I said it INDIRECTLY with the *COUGH*. And yes, my role is MILLERISH, DUH! It affects how my role shows upon DEATH! That is MILLERISH! WHICH IS HOW IT RELATES TO THE MILLER ROLE. WHICH IS HOW THAT BREADCRUMB MAKES SENSE!

How do you guys not see that yet?

And yes, NO LYNCH IS THE ONLY OPTION HERE! Really, an extra cop investigation is seriously going to mean a lot more than a stupid night of talk for the scum. How do you guys not see that?

And if you think I'm freaking out because I'm scum about to be lynched, that's bullcrap, because if I'm scum and lynched right now I could still win, but if I'm town and lynched right now then that's an instant loss. Duh.

Despite me hating mafia, I am not going to ask for a replacement, because I

did

sign up for this game, and it is indeed a cool game; I am just so sick of mafia and this is my last game, then I need a break for a couple months. So if you think that that is LURKING and SCUMMY, forget you. Sure, if I was actually IN other games and posting there, you could put that on me, but since I'm

not

, it really can't be scummy, can it?

About my role in general, yeah it's made up by the mod. Does that make it automatically false. No.

Seriously, No Lynch is the option here... and I have yet to see a real reason for why we shouldn't. Scum-talk is just way overrated. If someone came in tomorrow with a drastic change of opinions, wouldn't that mean that they were scum? And all the claims are already out, all the opinions are bare and plain to see, so what could the scum even

talk

about?

[Crazy]

If I need to make a haiku or something:

Do not lynch me now
A No Lynch is far better
Die Scum Die Scum Die

[Crazy]

As for what you said about millers, it simply isn't true. Revealing upon death is NOT what the miller role is and I don't know where you get that impression. Death Miller reveals on death.

Well, Tajo had already claimed Death Miller... and seeing as how my crumb linked myself to the other millers more than outright claimed miller myself, you can see how that worked.

So... if you want to ignore everything else that was said, etc. then just post a paraphrase of your role claim, etc. again and how it works, how you steal, roleblock, role steal and if you were lynched right now, what would you come up as?

I'm a Kleptomaniac. Each night I have to steal an "item" from somebody, which roleblocks them. I am told that my actions are resolved

before

kills. If I die before I steal another item the next night, I will show up as the same role as the person that I stole from (because when they search through my belongings, they will find that persons stuffz.) As far as I know, this is all flavor, and really doesn't mean anything literal relating to the game. So I'm basically just a roleblocker that steals the death reveal of the person I roleblock.

If I was lynched right now, I would come up as farside's role. If I am NKed tonight (which plainly won't happen; I can undoubtedly say that Corvuus/Korlash would die.), I would show up as the same role as the person that I roleblocked tonight.

And I can't RB the same person twice in a row.

[Crazy]

Uhh, Crazy, if you think scum talk is overrated, then why exactly are you advocating No Lynch? That's a whole bunch of logical fail in and of itself.

By "overrated," I mean "people are thinking that it is more useful than it is." Thus, I don't think it's any reason to not consider a NL.

Most of us are not considering No Lynch because we are certain that you are scum. You are doing nothing to convince us otherwise. In fact, the appeal to emotion you just did could very well be the final nail in your coffin. I understand that Mafia is frustrating you—I get that all the time. In fact, I'm stressed out easily. However, it is very scummy to tell everybody to shut up, let alone rude. There's probably other things wrong with your post that I can't describe in words right now.

I don't care about appeal to emotion. It's not a scum-tell, and if you don't like it, just ignore it. My case for not lynching me is that No Lynch is much better and that my stupid breadcrumb that everyone's so fixated on

does

make sense in ways I've expressed multiple times.

[Crazy]

Who do you suspect and why?

Farside/you/Mirth. Mirth is obvious... you and farside have never been on my townlist during any part of the game, and by process of elimination, you're about the only choice left. Nothing is really

blatantly

scummy about either of you.

1. farside - scum by PoE
3. StrangerCoug - scum by PoE
4. Shadowgirl - With Tajo and Corporate being town, I'm not seeing SG being scum.
5. Korlash - almost completley confirmed.
6. Mirth - I never liked her doctor claim from the start, and I'm sure there are others that didn't as well.
8. Corvuus - semi-confirmed.
10. Populartajo - from my standpoint, confirmed.

[Crazy]

There is no good reason to no lynch. The only difference it would make would be if a cop got an innocent on you. That is all. And that won't even save you. People will still lobby for your lynch. And who would it leave us with? Farside and Pop. And I hypothesis pop will be lynched way before Farside, so tell me exactly how you and pop, the main lobbiests for this no lynch that will either end in your lynch or his lynch tomorrow actually think it's "the only option"?

I just know that if I'm lynched, the town will lose. And yes, an innocent result on me might at least make people step back a little from my lynch... How can any extra cop investigation really be BAD?

Crazy. Do you have any comments on Electra's death? She was lynched after you stole from her and before you gave item back. Any thought on this or mention of it in role interaction or other? You say you are a roleblocker who steals death reveal so does that mean (or said in role) that if the person you steal from dies, their reveal is different?

Their reveal is not affected.

Who would you target for RB tonight?

Mirth/SC. It doesn't really matter, though, since farside will send in the kill because I blocked her last night and can't block the same person twice in a row.

Why would Corvuus/Korlash die tonight?

Because they are cops and basically confirmed.

And also this whole "reveals false role at death" thing... Who the hell is buying this? A death miller, a role theif, two cops of varying sanities, and 2 regular millers? And to top it off a "rusty" doc? no... It's not possible...

I don't think you can Mod-WIFOM in the insane asylum.

Both Mirth and SC can't be scum...

How are you and Pop not getting that?

Didn't you investigate them both? Why couldn't you be paranoid? Or why couldn't you be insane and one of them be the GF?

I don't know why he is bypassing claims and calling Mirth crap claim in loo of his own role.

I said I didn't like Mirth's claim since she first claimed it. Nobody else did, either, so I don't know what changed.

Crazy. Could you make a more detailed list of who do you think is town and who do you think is scum?

Scum is Mirth/farside/SC. Don't you think?

[Crazy]

You still have not explained why I'm scum with Farside and SC

Because it's the only real option from my point of view. That's not scummy; everyone uses process of elimination at this point in the game. If everyone ignored claims, then SG would probably be lynched, but thankfully we're smarter than that and can actually

look

at stuff like claims and narrow down the suspect lynch. Look, I'll make a case if we get through tonight. Now, that scummy No Lynch guy needs to die.

It shouldn't be bad, it just wont be good enough to justify letting a likely scum power role live through the night.

Please, if I RB you (or whichever cop has NK immunity), and that cop dies, then you have proof that I'm scum. Seriously, guys.

I can mod wifom anything when the alternative is bastard mod setup.

I joined this game expecting it to be at least semi-bastardly. And no matter who the scum is, and who's lying about their role, this setup is indeed bastardly.

For someone this close to death you sure aren't paying alot of attention to the game. I investigated one, corv investigated the other. I can't be paranoid because there is no evidence to support it. Until there is, I'm insane. The god father possibility doesn't exist in any lylo territory either. However, come tomorrow or the next day after a few scum drop dead we can reopen the GF possibility.

Wait, today it's impossible for there to be a GF yet tomorrow there could be?

And just because there's no evidence that you're paranoid doesn't mean that you're INSANE! That's the Burden of Proof fallacy.

[Crazy]

Nothing more I can say. I was under the impression that the cops had limited NK-immunity (two fully immune cops is absurd, and Korlash thinks MY role is bastardly), but if they have full NK-immunity, then that furthers the point that we should NL.

Bleh, scum won. Good game; definitely the coolest closed setup I've ever been in.

[Crazy]

Yeah, I played really poorly in this game. For some reason my role made we want to claim a power... but yeah, that ended up being useless for me.

But, no, I never meant to claim miller.

And yeah, the lurking I did here was due to a general lack of interest in mafia.