Mini 2265: Bears with Guns 2: Pandamonium game over

[Greeting]

Hi, VOTE: StrangeMatter, we haven’t played together in a while. Are you scum?

[Greeting]

Was

Toogeloo

really brought to E-1 with RVS votes?

[Greeting]

I also think the Toog read is bizarre fwiw. I just know it's not necessarily scummy

Can 31 even be called a read? Because like, this is bad, seems intentionally bad to start a discussion about it, and worst thing about this it could all come from town who just want RVS gone even if it resorts to discussion over trivial things like that.

[Greeting]

EBWOP: Meant to mention 30, not 31.

[Greeting]

How is suggesting a Greeting, Mala, Roden, momo team moving the game along?

What did you mean by this? Are you that upset by the RVS posts?

[Greeting]

Think there must have been one scum at least out of the five people on the toog wagon (based on how quick it moved), immediate objective should be sorting there.

This was, at the time, a joke wagon, why is people moving off it relevant and not the destination to which they moved? I mean, it went a bit too far, but I still see it as a joke wagon.

[Greeting]

Because I get a strong impression of trying to look like solving but not any impression of solving.

It just feels theatrical almost

I agree that it's theatrical but I don't agree that it necessarily comes from scum.

[Greeting]

I think some players need encouragement to post a bit more. Nothing relevant is happening at the moment.

VOTE: momo

[Greeting]

This is confusing.

You agree momo’s posting is theatrical but not necessarily scummy.
But then vote momo?

I think there’s a lot happening here.
Toog is refusing to give a single read of which the amount of defenses of that are suspicious.
There’s also a broad scattering of votes that can be critiqued.

It just seems disconnected that there’s nothing to go off of then vote a random player you said was Townie.

I don’t get it?
If trying to start RVS again maybe someone who isn’t giving reads like Toog or JV makes more sense. (Yes I see that JV has RL but town or scum can have RL.)

I mean hell at this point with how obstinate Toog is being they’d make a great vig shot.

...that is because I misread. For some reason I thought

MegAzumarill

was referencing someone else, namely you. That's my bad.

If you, however take this into consideration, then I feel like some players aren't doing much and therefore there's not enough potentially AI stuff to comment on, which is why I chose to join the

momo

wagon at the moment.

As for

Toogeloo

, my experience is that he has acted like this before and that his waffliness is most likely NAI.

[Greeting]

momo

should have been prodded by now.

Still has time on the prodder

[Greeting]

momo

should have been prodded by now.

Still has time on the prodder

Oh, right. The prods are 48 hours in this game. My bad.

[Greeting]

I really want toog flipped but Momo isn't the worst vote

Why?

[Greeting]

I really want toog flipped but Momo isn't the worst vote

Why?

Toog - lolcat, Momo - frog's TMI thingy about the wagon

I read Greeting’s question as why Toog more than momo. Can you answer that please?

Oh. That's not how I read it. Cause toog's content is even making an attempt at being game advancing and there's a lot of it compared to small from momo and something is there.

MathBlade

read it correctly. Thanks for answering.

[Greeting]

Oh. That's not how I read it. Cause toog's content is even making an attempt at being game advancing and there's a lot of it compared to small from momo and something is there.

I disagree with that.

How is lolcat advancing the game? Looks like active lurking to me.

Toogeloo

just kinda does that. It's NAI in my opinon.

[Greeting]

momo

should have been prodded by now.

Still has time on the prodder

Ewww.

I'm allergic to cat fur. My eyeballs turn red and my skin gets itchy. Which is a shame, because cats are kinda cute.

[Greeting]

momo

, whom would be your primary choice to vote out at this stage of the game?

[Greeting]

momo

should have been prodded by now.

Still has time on the prodder

Ewww.

What did you dislike about this post?

The fact that it was just to post fluff imo

I think greeting is overactive town there: monitoring activity timers like that doesn't ping scummy to me

It used to be something i used to do to look active and helpful when i was scum

VOTE: GREETING

good vote tho

I disagree with the "too fast vote"

i have been scum reading greeting for a bit now and her recent posts made it worse

Firstly, I am male.

Secondly, if you've suspected me much earlier, why have you waited for

momo

to cast their vote to jump right after?

[Greeting]

Greeting wagon looks sus as hell.

I hate the fact that both of them jumped on it only after

momo

made the case. Not earlier than that. Just because someone suspects me doesn't mean their case is bad. As for the real reasoning here it is probably "eh,

momo

's gone for it, let's jump on".

[Greeting]

Spoiler: Posts

momo

should have been prodded by now.

Still has time on the prodder

Ewww.

What did you dislike about this post?

The fact that it was just to post fluff imo

I think greeting is overactive town there: monitoring activity timers like that doesn't ping scummy to me

It used to be something i used to do to look active and helpful when i was scum

VOTE: GREETING

good vote tho

I disagree with the "too fast vote"

i have been scum reading greeting for a bit now and her recent posts made it worse

Firstly, I am male.

Secondly, if you've suspected me much earlier, why have you waited for

momo

to cast their vote to jump right after?

I apologize on that. I think I’m jumping to “she” because of the avatar, but mental note so it won’t happen again.

I wanted to see other content for you to provide before voting you, but then it just didn’t get better.

I also have a bunch of “null reads” that I want to flesh out.

I call bs. I'm LHF and half of the site should already know this. Besides, most of this day has been pretty uneventful.

You're faking your confidence in posts like 329 or 331. And that is proved by the fact that your actions don't line up with what you're saying. If you were so sure about me flipping scum, you wouldn't have let

momo

get hammered. You'd rally people around my wagon instead. I have seen this far more often from scum than town. Scums pretend to be confident and decisive in order to avoid getting scumread.

VOTE: Malakittens

(yes, I know this is twilight and

momo

is going down, but I am making a statement here)

[Greeting]

Greeting I’m really sorry that someone pissed in your cheerios. Want to know what’s worse out of good faith I decided to give playing with you a second try, but you have definitely pushed it here. So congrats consider yourself black listed from any future games that I play with you.

Im kinda lowkey not a happy camper when you say I’m faking a confidence tone. Believe it or not personally the last few weeks I been trying to better my mental health and one thing was starting to actually log my workouts. You don’t know me and you don’t get to fucking say I’m lying. Let me just say regardless of whatever ALIGNMENT I am I would never fake using a mental health comment.

Firstly, referencing ongoing games is against the rules.

Secondly, you know what? I am sick of playing with people who keep using real-life (or more specifically mental health) for excuses in a game that is relies specifically on psychological manipulation and uncovering it. Having mental health issues isn't great but weaponising them against other people

in a game

is, quite frankly, weak and pathetic. Everything and anything you do in the game gets evaluated to determine if you're scum or not.

Sorry, but I am

not

going to tread around someone because they have internal issues. If you don't like it then don't play with me, whatever. I have enough stuff on my plate in real life to have to deal with the stuff of strangers on MafiaScum.net. I'm here to play a game and not coddle other people.

Also, it looks like I hit the nail on the head. Otherwise, you wouldn't have reacted this way.

[Greeting]

Mala and Math, why did you guys hammer momo yesterday without a claim?

To blame it on me, by creating a false narrative that I was a scum counterwagon to

momo

's town wagon. I don't believe that the circumstances surrounding voting out

momo

were a miscalculation.

Malakittens

knew what they were doing when they made 336. Their lies and fake confidence are shown in clear contradictions between 334 and 338. It's just making up stuff and strategy on the go, and the effect is detrimental to town as resulted by today's flip.

VOTE: Malakittens

MathBlade

should also explain himself.

[Greeting]

Ok you don’t know me greeting and I can promise you I don’t use mental health to toy with peoples feeling. I have lost s/o due to spiraling into depression. I have also lost friends and a job due to it as well.

So please let me know when you walk a week in my shoes and then tell me I shit on mental health when majorly of people in my field suffer mental health issues secondary to try to help others.

Either way im done with this conversation.

I'm sorry, you brought it up?

The moment you bring up your real life insecurities and issues they become part of the game. If you don't want people to use them against you then keep them to yourself. I'm not sorry for playing towards my winning goal, and in case you're wondering what it is, that's looking for liars and manipulators, which also includes emotional blackmailers.

[Greeting]

Ok you don’t know me greeting and I can promise you I don’t use mental health to toy with peoples feeling. I have lost s/o due to spiraling into depression. I have also lost friends and a job due to it as well.

So please let me know when you walk a week in my shoes and then tell me I shit on mental health when majorly of people in my field suffer mental health issues secondary to try to help others.

Either way im done with this conversation.

I'm sorry, you brought it up?

The moment you bring up your real life insecurities and issues they become part of the game. If you don't want people to use them against you then keep them to yourself. I'm not sorry for playing towards my winning goal, and in case you're wondering what it is, that's looking for liars and manipulators, which also includes emotional blackmailers.

Its more complicated than just keeping it to yourself. As keeping it to yourself can also lead to it being used against you

That's one interpretation of what happened. Another interpretation that I believe is that someone uses this as a pre-emptive argument to excuse themselves out of suspicion.

If someone speaks of their newfound confidence and then does stuff that contradicts this confidence, the most logical conclusion is that have been manufacturing content and lying. And, you know, when you claim that someone is 100% scum and then vote someone else to

supposedly

make a point that just doesn't prove one's confidence in my eyes. It starts making sense from a scum point of view: miseliminating a townie and doing it paving the way for oneself to miseliminate another townie Day 2. The

momo

wagon was, in my opinion, a pressure wagon gone very wrong towards the end with the specific aim of targeting me for it later. Twilight of Day 1 was when my suspicion of

Malakittens

started to enhance when they got super erratic with their behavior and went on to hammer a townie (I know that it was

MathBlade

who did this, but

Malakittens

paved the way for him to do it).

Malakittens

claims that they had their first suspicion on me far earlier than when the first vote was cast. While it isn't immediately clear when it was, the first post where they indicated some sort of displeasure with my content was 215. They present my case as an OMGUS vote which it isn't. While their case on me is obviously wrong, I did not suspect them for having doubts about my alignment, which were crumbed (but not glaringly obvious to me) up until 287. The case did have

some

merit in the fact that I did not post a lot of content for most of Day 1. I have certainly hinted why and that was because I thought the majority of Day 1 was uneventful and boring. People went after

MathBlade

most of the time, whom I was townreading at the time. Nothing else was happening, many players weren't posting at all. That's it.

What matters in this game is behavior and not one's character. I have made points relating to behavior and received a counterattack in which I have been blamed for attacking one's character with

Malakittens

providing very personal reasoning. That's inexcusable and, objectively speaking, scum indicative. In the context of a mafia game, I am actually reading this as a poor attempt to stop me from reading the slot. It's not even "oh my god, you suck for this post", but "how DARE you attack my mental health" (referencing both 349 and 359). Town wants to solve the game. Scum wants to manipulate town against solving the game. Emotionally blackmailing another player into

not

investigating a potential scum slip, giving a real-life based reasoning, is a very anti-town thing to do.

Playstyles vary, but scum interests are always the same. And

Malakittens

' behavior does not indicate a game-solving mindset.

And that is why, in my opinion, the kitty needs to go. Not because they had some issues. But because what they claim doesn't align with their behavior and when pressed about it they get aggressive and manipulative.

[Greeting]

@Greeting:

So I feel like you are twisting stuff to fit your own agenda.

When Toog mentioned that I had confidence. I was letting him know it was most likely NAI. Yet, you went a step further and just personally attacked me for it which I feel is a line you shouldn't have crossed. I'm actually trying to be civil, but you are making it hard to be. I'm not lying. I'm not trying to emotionally manipulate anyone. Toog isn't the only one to notice a confidence tone difference as I have had people notice it outside of this website as well. HENCE MY IT'S NAI.

Writing this post only to indicate that I have read and acknowledged your defense. I am just not buying it for reasons stated in 396.

[Greeting]

Malakittens town
Toogeloo town
Greeting town
Cat Scratch Fever hard to say but probably town
MegAzumarill hard to say but probably town
JacksonVirgo hard to say
Vanderscamp hard to say
StrangeMatter hard to say but probably scum
MathBlade hard to say but probably scum
Dwlee99 scum

VOTE: dwlee

What makes

Dwlee99

scum? Tbh I'd like you to expand on all of those reads.

[Greeting]

Greeting is there a reason you bold player’s names

I bold the names of players who are playing in that particular game. I also bold my own name in the rare case that I am referring to myself in the third person. If I refer to a player who isn't in the game (usually in the context of referring to another game) I don't bold their name. So no, this isn't some secret code in case you're wondering, it's just a way for me to organise my own posts.

As for the reason, I just like doing it and I feel like doing it.

Give me 24 hours and I will explain.
Just not right now.

I need to see one last thing develop/set in.

I really hope to see a convincing explanation from you in the next 12 hours.

[Greeting]

I don't really agree that personal reasons are scum indicative ever or really is ever AI. Granted I still think this conversation reads to me as a TVT heavily biased tunneling each other.

This being theater is unlikely to be honest, so its either TVT (most likely here to me), or SVT, but definitely not SVS here.

This is such a simplistic take.

Why do you think that I'm biased tunnelling

Malakittens

?

I can't speak for

Malakittens

, but why do you think that they're biased tunnelling me?

[Greeting]

For you, Greeting, it's more intuition and gut from reading your posts (That I really don't agree with the logic but still seems townie but with the wrong reasons) that make me think this way, but for Malakittens it should be fairly obvious why I think they might be biased here and are tunneling you.

I was questioning the wording you used - namely "tunnelling". Because I don't see myself tunnelled over

Malakittens

. Am I sure if they are scum? No, I'm not. I do feel like I've judged the arguments for and against and the conclusion to which I got just points to

Malakittens

more likely being scum than not as indicated by their behavior. Also, I didn't get the feeling that they are tunnelled over me, but

Malakittens

would need to weigh in on this themselves.

My issue with this take is - it is just so easy to write off my lengthy argument against

Malakittens

and their past "suspicions" of me as two tunnelled townies and not delve into it deeper. That's how it certainly looks from a lazy viewpoint and hence why I asked you those questions.

[Greeting]

Spoiler: posts

Ok you don’t know me greeting and I can promise you I don’t use mental health to toy with peoples feeling. I have lost s/o due to spiraling into depression. I have also lost friends and a job due to it as well.

So please let me know when you walk a week in my shoes and then tell me I shit on mental health when majorly of people in my field suffer mental health issues secondary to try to help others.

Either way im done with this conversation.

I'm sorry, you brought it up?

The moment you bring up your real life insecurities and issues they become part of the game. If you don't want people to use them against you then keep them to yourself. I'm not sorry for playing towards my winning goal, and in case you're wondering what it is, that's looking for liars and manipulators, which also includes emotional blackmailers.

Its more complicated than just keeping it to yourself. As keeping it to yourself can also lead to it being used against you

That's one interpretation of what happened. Another interpretation that I believe is that someone uses this as a pre-emptive argument to excuse themselves out of suspicion.

1. If someone speaks of their newfound confidence and then does stuff that contradicts this confidence, the most logical conclusion is that have been manufacturing content and lying. And, you know, when you claim that someone is 100% scum and then vote someone else to

supposedly

make a point that just doesn't prove one's confidence in my eyes.

It starts making sense from a scum point of view: miseliminating a townie and doing it paving the way for oneself to miseliminate another townie Day 2. The momo wagon was, in my opinion, a pressure wagon gone very wrong towards the end with the specific aim of targeting me for it later. Twilight of Day 1 was when my suspicion of Malakittens started to enhance when they got super erratic with their behavior and went on to hammer a townie (I know that it was MathBlade who did this, but Malakittens paved the way for him to do it).

Malakittens claims that they had their first suspicion on me far earlier than when the first vote was cast. While it isn't immediately clear when it was, the first post where they indicated some sort of displeasure with my content was 215. They present my case as an OMGUS vote which it isn't. While their case on me is obviously wrong, I did not suspect them for having doubts about my alignment, which were crumbed (but not glaringly obvious to me) up until 287. The case did have

some

merit in the fact that I did not post a lot of content for most of Day 1. I have certainly hinted why and that was because I thought the majority of Day 1 was uneventful and boring. People went after MathBlade most of the time, whom I was townreading at the time. Nothing else was happening, many players weren't posting at all. That's it.

What matters in this game is behavior and not one's character. I have made points relating to behavior and received a counterattack in which I have been blamed for attacking one's character with Malakittens providing very personal reasoning. That's inexcusable and, objectively speaking, scum indicative. In the context of a mafia game, I am actually reading this as a poor attempt to stop me from reading the slot. It's not even "oh my god, you suck for this post", but "how DARE you attack my mental health" (referencing both 349 and 359). Town wants to solve the game. Scum wants to manipulate town against solving the game. Emotionally blackmailing another player into not investigating a potential scum slip, giving a real-life based reasoning, is a very anti-town thing to do.

Playstyles vary, but scum interests are always the same. And Malakittens' behavior does not indicate a game-solving mindset.

And that is why, in my opinion, the kitty needs to go. Not because they had some issues. But because what they claim doesn't align with their behavior and when pressed about it they get aggressive and manipulative.

I don't agree that contradictions are inherently scum indicative from experience when in several games I've seen more often town flipping on their views (One of which was a game where I spectated a newbie game where you and Cape90 in that game seemingly to me did a 180 onto Dunnstral) to know entirely from experience it's more common that scum chooses to have smooth arguments and have some excuse to switch to something. Although I don't understand quite understand, and I want you to walk me through the thought process here, how does this correlate with being a contradiction of their confidence?

Not going to say much on the other main part here since it is manipulative if they aren't lying about that, which is true but nobody here can really say if it's true or not (and probably shouldn't be pursued further since I think their reaction can absolutely be genuine).

I dropped the use of usernames for the purpose of this post only to make it simpler.

The way x posted made me believe that they're very certain that y is scum. If x says that y is almost certainly scum, then why would they switch to a second wagon, which was a pressure wagon and not focus on drumming up players to eliminate y instead? If x sees y as scum and x is town then it is most reasonable for to x believe that by voting to eliminate y they are acting in the interest of town. And not instead just jump on someone else.

Miseliminating any townie is objectively anti-town play. However, it happens in every game and I don't know a single player who has never voted out a townie while being town themselves. It happens not because every single townie who miseliminates scum wants their team to fail, but because they

think

that person was scum. So in their minds they see it as pro-town play. As for x, my opinion is that it's anti-town play in both objective and most importantly, subjective way. If someone acts in a way that doesn't align with their stated beliefs and their actions result in the worsening of town's chances to win the game then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the viewpoint could really be coming from scum.

Of course, there is a town explanation for this and it's that it's just they had bad reads and a bad impulse which led to a bad fuckup. But I see this as possibly coming from a scum point of view and hence why my vote is where it is.

[Greeting]

Mala and Math, why did you guys hammer momo yesterday without a claim?

To blame it on me, by creating a false narrative that I was a scum counterwagon to

momo

's town wagon. I don't believe that the circumstances surrounding voting out

momo

were a miscalculation.

Malakittens

knew what they were doing when they made 336. Their lies and fake confidence are shown in clear contradictions between 334 and 338. It's just making up stuff and strategy on the go, and the effect is detrimental to town as resulted by today's flip.

VOTE: Malakittens

MathBlade

should also explain himself.

I don't understand how you can receive the reaction from Mala that you did during eod and still come to the conclusion that their confidence is fake.

I have explained this in great detail to the point where I don't think there is anything more to add. As for that reaction itself, read up 396.

[Greeting]

mala's probably town for those posts tbh. I feel like scum wouldn't do an awkward vote like that, because the optics are really bad.

I've heard this before.

Scum wouldn't do that because it's too obvious.

Guess what happened? They did it and then used the very same thing as an excuse into misleading town to think otherwise.

Playstyles vary, but scums always have the same goal and that's it's the goal of each post that, in my opinion, takes precedence over playstyle.

Does this post come from someone who wants to solve the game in their own way or from someone who has something different on their mind?

It's true that not every post needs to have a goal. I've made posts before as town (I have never rolled scum on MafiaScum actually) and had nothing in mind. I have made posts which were pretty much prod dodges which brought up nothing in value to the game. There were games where I just waited for Day 1 to end, because I felt like there was not enough information to make a good choice. So I know that not every single post in the game needs to have a gamesolving mindset.

But these posts most definitely had a goal and the goal was anti-town.

[Greeting]

I claim N1 Novice Vigilante-Doctor.

I am actually a vigilante doctor. Not quite a vig but same effect. Because I didn’t believe Jackson’s claim and thought he was rolefishing I poisoned him (which is a delayed vig) and he will die on a set night. No I won’t say which night. If scum want to save him they will have to make a case and I can stop the effect.

I am pretty much a Joat with (redacted), poisoner, unpoisoner.

The risk is minimal if Jackson truthtold as N1 and Novice are contradictory.

Because I was a Joat I figured it a safe enough risk considering I am a Joat.

So if anyone townreads Jackson now’s the time. I was giving him and everyone else every opportunity to see if he should live.

Because Jackson didn’t want momo elimmed I felt it’s a pretty good elim.

That being said Toog’s reaction was terrible

VOTE: Toog

What is your flavor Mr JOAT?

Veterarian

I crumbed it with thinks like stethoscope:)

Your claim sounds believable. As for

JacksonVirgo

, I'll need to look into that slot, because my focus in this game has been completely elsewhere.

VOTE: Toog
Veterinarian that poisons. I wonder if your license should be revoked lmao

Veterinarians also euthanise pets. It's kinda cheeky to call them poison doctors, but it's totally something I would expect from Nero Cain (no shade, that's pretty cool actually!).

[Greeting]

MathBlade

,

StrangeMatter

, I saw your posts and I will reply later.

[Greeting]

Greeting / Mala
Who do you think is scum with the other person?

I'm not very sure, but I'll post whatever I have at the moment.

I think you're not, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to prompt me to look into other players, which I have neglected a bit. Maybe this is town confirmation bias, because I believe your claim and so I see your posts in a more towny way than I maybe should.

I think

JacksonVirgo

is a potential candidate and had you not poisoned them, I would have been quite willing to vote them out too. But since that happened, I think it's just about enough to say that you don't need to cure them and we just wait for them to die. There's a noticeable contrast between their behavior in Day 1 and Day 2. In Day 1 he contributed

a lot

and in Day 2 he's just posting absolute nonsense. If I were town in that position, I would probably be doing my best to either convince you to cure me or if that's not possible, at least give town something to analyse after my death. I think their reaction to being poisoned is an attempt to make everyone think that they don't care and so an attempt at reverse psychology. I say we just wait it out, perhaps that's the second scum we're looking for.

I would be willing to vote out

Cat Scratch Fever

for sheeping and pocketing

Vanderscamp

.

This is all somewhat reasonable up until the point where Greeting gets that reaction and then takes the line of "from this reaction it looks as though I was right about you faking confidence," when I feel like even in the world where Mala was scum and the confidence was not actually town indicative, Mala was VERY obviously being genuine about not faking it.
That particular stance from Greeting seems extremely disingenuous.

Greeting - they seem to be pushing people for doing weird/bizarre things that are anti-town while ignoring the town things about them --->

nullscum

Vanders - we seem to be agreeing on Mala and Greeting, which normally wouldn't sway me much in one direction or another, but I need reads that are not null so I'll bump them up a bit. 446 is annoying logic but probably NAI given the 2012 join date. interested in why dwlee is town though.

Note that

Vanderscamp

did not vote me, but

Cat Scratch Fever

used

Vanderscamp

's reasoning and then sheeped

Malakittens

into voting me. That's a great way to miseliminate town without bringing much attention to themselves.

I'll vote with mala

VOTE: Greeting

[Greeting]

At the moment I am townreading

MathBlade

and

Vanderscamp

.

I am soft townreading

StrangeMatter

and

wavemode

.

I am null or null/scum on rest.

Which means that the scums should be here:

Toogeloo
Cat Scratch Fever
MegAzumarill
Malakittens
Dwlee99
JacksonVirgo

MegAzumarill

is pinging me for not trying very hard in this game. They are a very apt player as both alignments and in my experience they're bold hunting down both scum and town. But in recent games they seem to have just lost enthusiasm. Not sure if this is AI though.

[Greeting]

Alright, that makes sense. However what sticks out to me and something I noted throughout all this is...I noted from looking through ISO as well is that you really didn't poke or prod into that much, just kind of accused. Which is odd in a scummy way (but I still think both of you are town) that just jumped onto something you find scummy for it.

I did actually, in post 314.

[Greeting]

And what I mean is odd about it is that you didn't really prod around Malakittens with your read, which to me indicates at the minimum a fairly strong reason to point if you are right or not about solving a person's alignment.

If the fairly strong reason appears as a result of particular action, there is no fairly strong reason for me to point out before the action happens. I did, however, start looking at their actions more closely since they first interacted with my 215.

[Greeting]

Dont bother I am dying tonight owo

How do you know you're dying tonight?

MathBlade

did not specify when you're going to die.

I am actually a vigilante doctor. Not quite a vig but same effect. Because I didn’t believe Jackson’s claim and thought he was rolefishing I poisoned him (which is a delayed vig) and he will die

on a set night

. No I won’t say which night. If scum want to save him they will have to make a case and I can stop the effect.

[Greeting]

IIRC his timing on the wagon was opportunistic
I'll have more to say tonight

Opportunistic how?

[Greeting]

There is a simple explanation, which I thought basic comprehension skills would cover but I guess not, I don't care about the game as much as day 1 because I am being killed by Math. I don't care if you are like "Town would try anyway blah blah", that's an ideal and I am not the type of person to give two shits about a game I am being taken out of from almost the start, without even catching up fully of day 1. I did

not

contribute a lot day 1, saying so is either false recollection or just straight lies for the sake of trying to make a case against me.

I do not care what you would or would not do as Town, I am not you and you are not me. Stop pushing your own ideals onto other people, and if you stop to actually read the gamestate or the actual personalities/mindsets of the players. You would know Math is tunnel-visioned on his supposed "day 1 solve". Even with 33% of that solve being wrong, proven by the town-flip, he still says he is fully confident on that solve. Proves that he is tunnel-visioned and thus nothing I can do can stop his ego from taking over actual logic. I've been and done this a thousand times, I am not fighting a fight I am destined to lose (not claiming scum, if you want to take my words out of context).

Oh look, I thought I was unlucky to have been emotionally blackmailed by one player and yet here we go again. Let me approach this in other way.

Is it an unrealistic ideal that I am expecting and looking for or is it just... playing towards the town win condition? If you're town how do your current actions help town right now? If they are not helping town because you just don't care then why is it so unreasonable for others to think that is actually scum pretending to not care in order to avoid getting killed?

This is a repeat of the

Malakittens

affair. And the argument is eerily similar and has a similar point where it directly relates to being consistent.

Mini Theme 2260 has recently come to an end. I played in that game. It had a really pretty, but extremely confusing theme. I did not vibe with the theme nor the players much and ended up being eliminated for it Day 1. I did not care at all that game and I was town. I was bad town. I did not do well, my performance in that game did not help my team. But I was consistent in that.

I believe that 303 and 306 were valid contributions to the game. You were argumentative and afterwards stood your ground. That is how I see it. The gamesolving mindset there contrasts with your behavior in Day 2.

So no, I'm not making stuff up and refusing to see that being poisoned can lead to being unmotivated. I just find that the contradiction increases your likelihood of being scum. Someone who appears to want to play, but then does a complete 180 because a player claimed to have poisoned them with a delay could be a scum strategy to appear to not care in order to make

MathBlade

doubt their judgement.

[Greeting]

Toog feels radically different from here
viewtopic.php?t=88618&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I can't tell the difference.

Toogeloo

feels null to me.

Plus he's apparently scumreading

Cat Scratch Fever

whom I'm also slightly scumreading so that's a plus for him.

[Greeting]

Toog feels radically different from here
viewtopic.php?t=88618&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I can't tell the difference.

Toogeloo

feels null to me.

Plus he's apparently scumreading

Cat Scratch Fever

whom I'm also slightly scumreading so that's a plus for him.

Jackson and Toog are on CSF so CSF is town to me

Now that

MegAzumarill

is on it too, I can safely say that I don’t like the composition of

Cat Scratch Fever

’s wagon even if I was soft scumreading her myself. This makes me question my judgement. Her last posts have been towny too.

I have a strong feeling that at least one of these three is scum. When this game is over I’ll check back to see if this feeling was correct.

But I don’t necessarily feel like voting out

Toogeloo

either.

Can we just yeet out

Malakittens

? I think this is where my vote still belongs as of now.

[Greeting]

Oh, and I will be in V/LA until at least Sunday evening, to possibly Monday evening but not longer than that.

[Greeting]

I am back, but very tired.

Greeting

is town.

This is very clearly a prod dodge.

I will catch up tomorrow after work.

[Greeting]

Why does

Meg

feels so aloof in this game? In the past games I've played with them they were the motor for either alignment they were. We were at odds often, but in the end I thought their play was really good.

In this game it feels like they really don't care that much.

[Greeting]

Again, I hate when people refer to themselves as "lhf". obv if you know you are then you need to find a way to correct your playstle : re greeting.

There was just one game where I clearly didn't care to solve. In all of the other games I've clearly been trying to find out the scumteam, often with decent results.

The question is: do I need to correct my playstyle or do others need to correct their judgement of my play?

[Greeting]

Why does

Meg

feels so aloof in this game? In the past games I've played with them they were the motor for either alignment they were. We were at odds often, but in the end I thought their play was really good.

In this game it feels like they really don't care that much.

This is something I agree with. I feel like they are a nonentity this game & that bothers me.

I feel like their contributions are in the bottom half of the playerlist for this game.

Thing is, I don't know if this is AI. I played with them in Newbie 2084 and they did a really good job as scum in that game.

[Greeting]

The above is a blatant attempt to taunt me, as was the attempt undertaken before in order to get me into an argument, which then is usually seen as TvT. Doing this,

JacksonVirgo

is trying to make themselves look cleaner.

Which is why I will not be engaging with this any further.

[Greeting]

MathBlade

is claiming to have a PR whose actions we are supposed to see as a flip of one of the players. The flavour for the claimed role also sounds believable. I think it's better to vote out someone else today.

[Greeting]

Malakittens

has been far less active, but I don't think that's AI since the game kinda died down altogether. We've all kinda been less active. Plus, people think that whole fight we had is not indicative of her being scum. So this elimination is not going to happen and I guess I just have to suck it up. I am strongly for eliminating someone today and to do that, I'll have to compromise.

Sorry,

Dwlee99

, I don't want to vote out

MathBlade

today. I simply think the slot is more likely to be town than scum and nothing happened to make me think otherwise. My reads haven't changed since I last posted them.

I am very torn. I want to vote

Cat Scratch Fever

, but the fact that

JacksonVirgo

is on that is stopping me. I honestly don't know why Day 2 is so weird. My gut is telling me that scums are being idle right now and hoping that town will redirect their attention somewhere else. I guess the other alternative is

MegAzumarill

.

Let's go with that. VOTE: MegAzumarill

[Greeting]

I am very torn. I want to vote Cat Scratch Fever, but the fact that JacksonVirgo is on that is stopping me. I honestly don't know why Day 2 is so weird. My gut is telling me that scums are being idle right now and hoping that town will redirect their attention somewhere else. I guess the other alternative is MegAzumarill.

What's your issue with me specifically? Maybe I can rectify that read now that I am out of the "attack everyone" phase.

MathBlade

counterclaimed your claim. I know that you said it was a joke claim, but the coincidence is just too bizarre.

I thought 686 was made in bad faith. I don't attack someone because they have real-life issues or real-life mental health issues. I attack in-game behavior only and strongly suggest that everybody do the same. I won't come for someone because they have work or family issues and go V/LA as a result. If someone is being inconsequent or erratic, however, and then blame it on their real-life issues, it attracts my attention and I do think it's game-relevant. I explained this in 687 and I'm upholding this interpretation.

You have, however, slightly risen in my eyes, because you decided to fight to get townread or at least leave town something in case

MathBlade

's claim is real. But there's still other players whom I trust more. I guess I am kind of guilty of sticking to a gut feeling when I get it and then picking it over stuff that unfolded later in the game, so if you flip town I will turn out to have been too stubborn and inflexible.

[Greeting]

so you're outing my action because you don't believe there would be 4 town prs in a 13p game?

as for JV, he should've died by now if he was going to. math's role says it happens next night

They should have. But they didn't. My guess is that the kill was stopped by someone, and I don't think that someone was

MathBlade

.

The pool of town PRs is narrowing. It is very highly doubtful that the role which stopped the kill is a town role. There is, of course, the possibility that

MathBlade

lied or withheld the information that he unpoisoned

JacksonVirgo

, but he nor town wouldn't have gained anything from doing this. Which is why my vote lands here.

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

[Greeting]

so you're outing my action because you don't believe there would be 4 town prs in a 13p game?

as for JV, he should've died by now if he was going to. math's role says it happens next night

They should have. But they didn't. My guess is that the kill was stopped by someone, and I don't think that someone was

MathBlade

.

The pool of town PRs is narrowing. It is very highly doubtful that the role which stopped the kill is a town role. There is, of course, the possibility that

MathBlade

lied or withheld the information that he unpoisoned

JacksonVirgo

, but he nor town wouldn't have gained anything from doing this. Which is why my vote lands here.

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

Can’t add my two cents as I am just as clueless. Only possibility is Math either had a last minutr change of heart or I die tonight.

I am very sorry, but mechanically it just doesn't make sense for you to be town.

If you're town, you should have died last night.

MathBlade

's role clearly indicates that it works on the following night and I simply refuse to believe he would have cancelled the action without informing town of it.

[Greeting]

StrangeMatter

, I hear you regarding

wavemode

. But I think

JacksonVirgo

is mechanically extremely likely scum.

We know of the following town PRs in this game:

IT Specialist

-

momo

Motion Detection-targets a player to learn if any actions were performed on or by that player
Check Communications-targets a player to learn if they have a communications network (private topic)
Establish Communications-targets a player to establish a communications network (private topic) with another player

Veterinarian

-

MathBlade

Quarantine-this ability prevents a player from posting in the game thread the next day phase however it will create a neighborhood topic between you and your target for that phase.
Purification-stops the effects of poison.
Poison-poisons a player. The poisoned player will die the night after e.g. Jingle is poisoned night 2 but doesn't die until night 3.

???

-

StrangeMatter

In my experience, there hasn't been more than 4 town PRs in a 13 player setup. Which means that there is 1 up to 2 town PRs left in the game, yours included. Now, how likely is it that either of these roles can unpoison a poisoned player? And how likely is it that there is a mafia counterweight to this role?

If we assume that it is a mafia counterweight role which unpoisoned

JacksonVirgo

, the only logical conclusion is that they unpoisoned him because he's scum. They have no reason to do it if he's town. If there are 3 scums (and I think that it's extremely unlikely for there to be more than 3), an extra townie dying during Night 2 brings them closer to victory and effectively makes Day 3 ELo (5-3, misvote gives 4-3, therefore the game results in a likely scum victory Night 3). And, as of today, we are at 6-3, which is not yet ELo.

[Greeting]

Disappointed and surprised, but not very surprised. I will post my thoughts when I get back from work.

[Greeting]

First things first, thank you for your apology Mala. I accept it, and I apologise for my wording in return. Although it wasn't meant to be personal, it was a bit too harsh and was a reflection of my extreme annoyance at the situation and your defense presented. If that is my toxic trait then here is one to balance it out: I do not hold grudges against anyone and I'm surprisingly quick to forgive and forget, which had already happened while the game was still going. Let's hope that we both can learn from this.

Secondly, JV, you were in the right and I was in the wrong here. Sorry for that.

Finally, the game itself. Thank you for hosting it Nero and thank you to everyone for playing. I think the theme was cool and tbf I think the Veterinarian being able to poison someone is fantastic.

The set-up was unfortunately flawed.

Was it balanced?
On paper: kinda, but swingy.
In reality: not really.
I guess one could look at it as: town having strong PRs vs. mafia having more in terms of player numbers. But, if you break it down, then the PRs were strongly town-sided and parity was strongly scum-sided. Which made the game unstable and therefore, in my opinion, unbalanced.

Now, was this game winnable for either alignment? Absolutely. Town play was bad in this game, and that also includes myself. Scum play ranged from moderately good to very good. Did the mafia team deserve to win? Absolutely.

But, given the fact that the game was unbalanced, it took one less mistake for town to lose the game than usual and scums had an easier job manipulating the vote count. While townies had power concentrated in individuals, scum had power concentrated in their numbers and it was, ultimately, thanks to their numbers that they won.

I absolutely don't think this game was a waste of time. But I don't think this game can be compared to other Mini games I've played either. It was a different experience.

Congratulations to the scum team.

[Greeting]

First things first, thank you for your apology Mala. I accept it, and I apologise for my wording in return. Although it wasn't meant to be personal, it was a bit too harsh and was a reflection of my extreme annoyance at the situation and your defense presented. If that is my toxic trait then here is one to balance it out: I do not hold grudges against anyone and I'm surprisingly quick to forgive and forget, which had already happened while the game was still going. Let's hope that we both can learn from this.

Secondly, JV, you were in the right and I was in the wrong here. Sorry for that.

Finally, the game itself. Thank you for hosting it Nero and thank you to everyone for playing. I think the theme was cool and tbf I think the Veterinarian being able to poison someone is fantastic.

The set-up was unfortunately flawed.

Was it balanced?
On paper: kinda, but swingy.
In reality: not really.
I guess one could look at it as: town having strong PRs vs. mafia having more in terms of player numbers. But, if you break it down, then the PRs were strongly town-sided and parity was strongly scum-sided. Which made the game unstable and therefore, in my opinion, unbalanced.

Now, was this game winnable for either alignment? Absolutely. Town play was bad in this game, and that also includes myself. Scum play ranged from moderately good to very good. Did the mafia team deserve to win? Absolutely.

But, given the fact that the game was unbalanced, it took one less mistake for town to lose the game than usual and scums had an easier job manipulating the vote count. While townies had power concentrated in individuals, scum had power concentrated in their numbers and it was, ultimately, thanks to their numbers that they won.

I absolutely don't think this game was a waste of time. But I don't think this game can be compared to other Mini games I've played either. It was a different experience.

Congratulations to the scum team.

FWIW you’re conflating swing and balance. Balance is “do all factions have a roughly equal chance at winning?” To which I think the answer is solidly a yes. Swing is what you’re describing, where the chances of a roflstomp one way or the other increase. Normals tend to try for low to moderate swing in addition to good balance, but the two concerns are independent.

And yes, this was indeed a very swingy game.

If a game can lose its balance very quickly (and that is bound to happen when the swing is too big) then it’s not well balanced at all. But that’s my personal opinion.

[Greeting]

If a game can lose its balance very quickly (and that is bound to happen when the swing is too big) then it’s not well balanced at all. But that’s my personal opinion.

The point I was making is that that isn't balance. You're saying that you thought the game was too swingy for your tastes which is a valid criticism (and one I tend to agree with, as I mentioned in the mod thread (In hindsight, I think a vig and scum lovers was a poor combination, which didn't actually end up affecting the game)). It's more a function of telling you the right game design wording so that when you give feedback on a game it is more easily understood.

On the other hand, looking at this purely from a game design standpoint: I think that you think the game is actually swingier that it really was. A vast majority of the time town is going to get a guilty via watcher on night 1 or 2 and almost certainly on a goon barring any severe misplays, meaning the game should extend farther than it did this game resulting in a much more standard game experience. With a guilty outed, the watcher becomes functionally vanilla because the JK should sit on them until the JK dies and then they should be killed. The issue with the swing here was more the possibility of a N2 scumwin (2x Town elim, 2x town NK, 1x town poison) compared to the possibility of scum just being boned on D1 (lovers dying). What happened here was 4 very strong town roles not having any impact on the game at all, which is very unlikely.

I agree that this game was probably not the cup of tea of most of the player list, but the statement "I don't like coffee, so coffee is bad" is analogous. I think the setup itself is fine, although we definitely could have done a better job communicating design principles before it began to attract a pool of players more interested in a higher variance game. I also think that Nero's thought to turn it into a large would be a good way to reduce the swing element if he decides to run a similar game in the future.

I understand your point. My point is, this setup does not fit my idea of a mafia game at all. Which is why I say that the game is not well balanced, because this is too far off from what fits my idea of a mafia game. I can accept that some people like this idea, but this game deviated a little too much from what I expected while entering it. I think it probably would have been better to inform players of the swing and let them decide and speculate on that. In what I see as a forum game of mafia, swing is part of the balance, and it is an important part in most games.

Note that this game could have well gone wrong for scums too. If town got lucky and eliminated one of the scum lovers Day 1, the chances of scums winning would decrease dramatically.

I also disagree completely with the fact that the town PRs having no impact was very unlikely. The fact that mafia's greater numbers allowed them to manipulate the vote counts with ease. I mean, just look at the VCs. On Day 2 and Day 3, the scums all just barged in and used their sheer numbers. And they were absolutely correct in doing that. Sure, they wouldn't have been able to push any of these without town being on them as well, but my, MegAzumarill's, or MathBlade's mess-ups should not have impacted the game as hard as they did. I don't think a single decision should impact the game so much and the fact that it did is what I mean by saying that the setup is flawed. Of course, the mafia played better and they deserved their win. But in a less swingy game, the win would have been more difficult and the mess-ups town did would have had a less profound impact than they did in this game.

That is, unless the players are told before that they should expect the unexpected.

[Greeting]

GIM is definitely different in that its intentionally designed as a game that was intended to not be taken super seriously.

For sure people don't like swing games where its not known that it could be an extremely swingy game. Still this game was going to swing either way if certain conditions were met, though we definitely played very poorly so town just got stomped.

+1

Still infuriating how the CSF wagon got counterwagoned out of nowhere and then MegAzu just self hammers.

CSF wagon stalled because she was scum, and when the chance to get a viable town counterwagon presented itself (me offering to vote out Meg instead) all of the scums just barged in and Meg self-hammered. And that was basically how the end of Day 2 went. Does usual mafia go like that? No, because the scums have less voting power because of lesser numbers and they also feel less inclined to rely on their voting power as the game is balanced in terms of PRs as well.