Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

[The Fonz]

Hello everyone. I'm going to give this game a quick readthru (I have a rare day off tomorrow). What I can announce in advance is that I really don't feel like omgusing anyone for going after td, since a brief look at his posts in isolation do seem to suggest that he spent most of the game discussing flavour than actually taking positions. All I can say is i guess he really was that big a trekkie nerd.

[The Fonz]

Right, this has taken longer than i thought. I'll give my d1 thoughts now, and return for the remaining six pages (seriously, a 20-page d1 and six pages for the following two?)

__________________________

First scummy thing I notice is frelaras placing a vote for 'running up a random bandwagon'

Something about Pie's 58 makes me uneasy, but I can't really put my finger on it.

So why be so beligerant if you feel that their just inexperienced? It would be far more productive to explain in a nice manner what you feel is wrong, rather than making posts that consist 50% of caps and speaking down to them.

Lol someone hasn't played with ZONEFACE before. Not game relevant, but amused me.

CallMeLiam is VERY lurky.

Jebus, my vote was random but you're not doing anything that makes me want to remove it.

First major beeping of scumdar. If a random vote makes the transition to a serious one, the reasons for it need to be clear. Leaving the vote on there implies you would have been willing to switch from a randomer on someone else to that player, in which case why bother emphasising the randomness?

I agree that Jebus comes over at scummy and one can say that could've been newbie mistakes, but as he/she says that he/she isn't a newbie...dunno

Mega-hedging.

I still feel that Zone's "You have dishonored your family." is scummy.
Firstly because it was in klingon, secondly, it may have reference to his character of which i probably don't know about since i havent seen much of the series.
thirdly, it just sounds scummy to me.

?????????

118 kinda makes me surprised sekinj came up town.

Pie's 119 is much better than her previous efforts. There's actually a good point there.

I don't however like the way she backtracks under pressure in 123.

Fos: Tim

for slapping down the claim idea without actually discussing it.

I hadn't thought about the fact that some of our players won't know all the characters though L-K, good point. I wasn't gonna push for it or anything, but I'm happier not claiming now.

This is scummy. Seems kinda have-cake, eat-cake.

137- (freralas) I could totally see this as scum quietly pushing a townwagon from the margins.

No-one seems to have commented on the point that it's unlikely Jebus suggests that a WC claim could be useful as scum. Me no likey.

I'm new to mafia-scum games. I'm not new to the game of mafia. And voting someone because you don't like their play-style makes no sense.

This, however, is laughably wrong.

I also enjoy speculating about potential power roles in-thread! -_-

I also like making throwaway comments that throw out blanket condemnations!

This is looking awfully like a default lynch.

Man, sekinj was noobish.

Timeater's 202 makes me *headdesk*, just FYI.

frelaras' 213 makes me uncomfortable. It reads like 'well, he could be town. Or he could be scum. He's still probably our best lead.' Reads like pre-excusing a town lynch.

Timeater's 217 draws another *headdesk*.

I hate ZONEACE.

275: Ozy, having lurked like crazy, shows up, and doesn't really contribute, just jumps a hypocritical lurkerwagon.

I really start to wonder whether half the game are ignorant of the concept of safeclaims.

[
However, when it comes down to a decision between a player who looks scummy and someone who is heavily lurking, I will favor the one who seemed scummy.

Vote: CallmeLiam

And this is why people lurk.

305: OMG, is this ever getting anal.

I actually like Liam's 318.

324- *HEADDESK HEADDESK HEADDESK*

Seriously, if I'd have been in the game, i'd have pushed a Tim lynch just for recurring stupidity.

334- Farside takes an original position here. Town point.

By my logic, the fact that I am Quark is worthless information and as such I have no problem whatsoever in just stating it

HUGELY disagree. That any role could conceivably be a scum safeclaim, does not mean that *IF YOU ARE TOWN* it is not a horrible idea to give away your rolename, from which scum may be able to work out your role.

Farside 349: I don't see why top threes are necessary.

I checked the case you made against me was based entirely off my stance that character claims aren't a useful tool in townie's analysis.

This somewhat understates the Liam case. I'm actually expecting a cop or mason claim from Liam eventually, since i don't see how he lives this long otherwise. Don't know how those fit Quark though.

361: <3 <3 <3 You know, it's just a shame you're always scum, really.

Yeah, I definitely think this is a good point. Bandwagons serve a very useful purpose, especially in the early game to get reactions and responses. When someone looks scummy, I don't think you need to invent new targets just to avoid the label of "following." I think that will show up over time as a tell in itself, which is useful in itself. But getting on a bandwagon day 1 to get some action going is hardly awful in itself.

I never said you should invent new targets.

Fos:

frelaras for misrepresenting me. What I said was, if you think the target everyone is talking about isn’t scum, you should look elsewhere, even if nobody follows you. Town should never vote for someone they don’t think is scum. sekinj was already making excuses for why lynching jebus was a good thing even if he came up town when she voted him- it’s this I objected to; if she thought there was a good chance jebus was town, she shouldn’t have voted for him at all.

I think both players in this dispute are actually not saying anything contradictory, yet both are accusing the other of misrepresenting: Frelaras' point seems to be that, if you think someone's scummy, or useful info can be gleaned by wagoning, you shouldn't be afraid to vote them just because you will be accused of bandwagoning. M4yhem's is that if you don't think someone's scummy, you shouldn't vote them just because others are.

385: Oh, right, yes, Ozy was playing.

387 is a good defence of Fre's play to date. Makes me somewhat happier about him.

398: Seriously, remind me to run a don't be stupid mafia.

It's not so much the listing of whom you suspect, but the fact that listing the suspects also gives away whom you

don't

suspect. Listing anything more than the top two suspects on day one is not helpful.

Wahoo, something i agree with my predecessor on!

Farside, would you care to elaborate on your reasoning for the vote switch in 404?

Liam's points in 407 are generally pretty weak. I mean, the 'lynch all non-DS9ers' thing never really had any chance of happening, did it? And if we lynched people for calling out lurkers without checking V/LA... all we'd ever do is lynch people for that, it happens so freaking often. Doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me, but it's not lynchworthy for a second.

Of course, td pushed the same kinda line so...

424: Coming out against LAL is a quick way to make me hate you. Of course, this wasn't a LAL situation.

1. FoS: Two of them are from you for worthless reasons.

A FoS is never worthless.

An FOS is ALWAYS worthless, where it is not scummy.

440 is pretty good. Real conflicted about Liam right now.

I'm voting for sekinj because of her erratic voting pattern, which seems to skip around, following the town around for convenience reasons.

This isn't a bad reason in itself, but possible hypocrisy angle?

I can see, post-claim, that sekinj pretty much had to die. Unfortunate, but meh. It sounded incredibly contrived. miller doctor?

I'm just really sick of being seen as scum in every single one of my games.

It's not everyone else, it's you

Everyone knows how i stand on self-voting town. Let alone self-voting DOCTORS.

[The Fonz]

Hmmmmm.

Seems not so much happened later, all investigations and roleclaims.

Fwiw, fre's reaction to LK's claim is what I'd have done, pretty much.

Farside's 546 is pretty much on the money. Though I do think td was right in saying that farside describing him as 'against massclaim' is misrepresentative of his position. He made pretty clear he was for

this

particular massclaim.

It's a “scum thing,” the changelings are the Founders of the Dominion.

I'm more confused. You said you checked M4yhem. But didn't he turn out to be scum?

I can answer this. Weyoun, whilst dominion-aligned, is not a shapeshifter. I would guess that my role is basically a godfather cop.

RE: 571, i call all antitown 'scum' and groupscum mafia (or groupscum).

I wasn't dubious of the vanilla aspect. The reason I asked was because I would think twice about lynching a claimed power-role to test a cop, but a vanilla townie isn't the biggest loss.
As for today, I will now freely admit to be suspicious of our claimed vanillas. So far we've seen no vanillas and the only person to claim it was scum.

Well, given that your own role is pretty much confirmed (scum votestealer = usually considered broken) then at least one has to be scum.

Do you doubt the scum have a safe claim?

Safe claims are not the same as safe

role

claims. Most safeclaims give only a name. It's not hard to see that a scum might have a safe name, but feel unable (due to the amount of town power dead) to claim a power role.

At this point I'm not discounting anything. My natural reaction is to suspect vanilla because the claimed powers are quite believable with Odo as a very limited cop and O'Brien having NK protects. I haven't done a re-read to check for scumminess but you two will be my first ports of call when I do.

Just to note that NK-immune is a pretty easy fakeclaim for scum at this stage, since, y'know, they're not going to be NKed anyway.

farside, sek's case on Fre WAS really bad. I'm not going to hold that against him. (Yours, however, I think has some merit).

I didn't rely on my claim in any way to defend myself. I claimed because I felt that it was useless information and so was happy to throw it out. Trying to keep secret information that I'd been harping on about being useless would be hypocritical and scummy.

If information is useless to town, surely that's a great reason to keep it hidden?

I'm also suspicious of your claim. I can't see Kira Nerys as vanilla. If Jake Sisko was a provided claim then Kira seems quite similar: a name with none of the flavour or a relevant ability.

Vote: farside22

This I disagree with: we should have learned our lesson about trying to outguess the mod here. Not only is it perfectly plausible that an 'obvtown' character is actually a shapeshifter posing as the same, it's equally likely an 'obvious' power role is vanilla. I mean, a minor character was a tracker. That's just good game design.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Farside, why did you try to hammer TD?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Fonz]

Hmmm. OK.

Personally, i'm seeing sotty-fre.

[The Fonz]

Mod: Freralas hasn't posted on-site in five days. Sotty hasn't posted in a day under two weeks.

[The Fonz]

Good to see we only need the one replacement, then.

I'm not buying the farside case. I still think sotty is scum.

Vote: sotty7

[The Fonz]

Just remember I can't vote.

Well, consider me wanting the lynch of sotty or Fre, then. They seem fairly obviously a scumpair.

[The Fonz]

So, still here, still unable to vote, still representin' all the gangstas all across tha world...

Why aren't the votes on frelaras being counted?

[The Fonz]

Whose PM did you send?

I am SHOCKED, shocked, that td wasn't already lynched by the time i replaced him. It was soooo obvious.