Mini 693 - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Mafia (OVER)

[Pesco47]

Vote Ooba

Smells like a moblin

[Pesco47]

Somebody want to play the 'left-A-down-left-A-down' tune on their Ocarina and help us get moving along?

[Pesco47]

Could MafiaSSK possibly be Ganon?

If he's not Ganon or Link, he might be the Triforce or that silly princess who always needs rescuing.

[Pesco47]

letsbefriends (1) - raider8169, malthusis

@ mod: Is this accurate?

[Pesco47]

I'm going to throw out a different view: MafiaSSK is already in the Future Phase all by his lonesome. Once we get going, he'll probably join in as we do a phase change. So ignore him for now and find us some peahats, like-likes, octoroks, keese, zora, stalfos or moblins.

[Pesco47]

Assuming the latest vote count is free of errors, letsbefriends has 3 votes, one of which is anon. Does anyone have a grudge against lurkers/non-confirmeds?

[Pesco47]

A case made on a definitive scummy action is better than a case made on meta tells. How about giving a read on me, iLord? You have 2 sources of meta on me, what does that tell you about me so far?

I'm not particularly fond of using meta to spearhead accusations (votes), they serve their purpose in guiding one's role abilities rather.

Currently I'm willing to put down what CoCam and SP have posted as RV stage crap, not worth much now but will be looked into after a flip.

[Pesco47]

The RV stage is full of useful breadcrumbs/things to take out of context since no one really takes anything said in that stage seriously. After a flip, one can get working on the little things that have been nagging them from the subconscious.

I'll concede to meta under a very special circumstance: the player in question does not even know that a particular action of theirs is a meta tell. Only if they are unaware of their habits, can the meta be 100% effective against them.

You're right that definitive scummy action is better than meta. But meta determines what is scummy for each player

This could be taken a little ambiguously, somewhat circular logic.

[Pesco47]

So no meta = no tells for you?

If meta was that important, Natirasha should be first lynch every game, no questions asked.

[Pesco47]

Just go read his profile, theres all the meta you need.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: His profile on the wiki

[Pesco47]

Not by yours, by his one-liner of meta being important.

[Pesco47]

The comments and content posted during RV is too messy to pick our way through, until we have a reference point to work from. A flip provides the point of irrefutable truth. I didn't say ignore it completely, put what you notice about it aside for later use.

[Pesco47]

In other news: *cough* Tar games need unvotes. *cought* This means you iLord. *cough* - Tar

Less Tar, less coughing

@ mod: are the less-than-active players going to get prods?

[Pesco47]

@ ilord: Meta-ing me won't help as I usually play differently every game. Go ahead though, I just thought I should point that out.

Choice of words here, 'usually'.

FoS CoCam

, another argument that will lead us in circles seems to be forming.

[Pesco47]

iLord, what is the point in trying to get MSSK to change his vote?

That was to see if anyone voting letsbefriends/Zazier was a double-voter. The plan's pretty fail since malthusis unvoted rather quickly after that.

[Pesco47]

Pesco: Why did you just answer raider's question directed at iLord?

Activity was low. I was bored.

[Pesco47]

Malthusis, can you perhaps explain why your vote (if SSK hasn't to do anything with this) counts for 2?

Look who's rolefishing now?

[Pesco47]

I'm not sure when you asked it, but I'm only noticing this most recent one. Might we also take that as your admission to rolefishing from even earlier? FoS Zazier (if we're allowed more than one).

[Pesco47]

You get a FoS for being hypocritical. I'll make my official FoS's and votes when I'm good and ready to move them.

[Pesco47]

Pesco, why are you still having your random vote, while FoSing CC09 and me? When I FoS, that's a sign of 'I'm suspecting you, but I see someone else as scummier'. Please explain why you don't vote one of the players who you have FoS'ed.

What a FoS means to you is your business, I don't necessarily treat it in the same measure. If you want my vote somewhere more intimidating, you can have it.

Unvote, Vote Zazier

Based on the reasons why I unofficially FoS'd you earlier.

[Pesco47]

I've made a re-read. Before I post my thoughts , it would help if everyone can answer this question:

On a scale of 1-10,
with 1 being "What is Zelda?"
and 5 being "I know the entire story,overall theme of Ocarnia of time"
and 10 being "I know all the character bios and even know the dialogs backwards"

where would you fall?

7/8

[Pesco47]

@ Malthusis: If that line at iLord is a breadcrumb of your role name, one character comes to mind and it's a scum character. Convince me otherwise or I'll vote.

[Pesco47]

You guys figured it out yourselves while I was away. What don't you believe, double-vote or him being Twinrova? The soft-hinting at double-voting is what's suspicious.

[Pesco47]

With abilities very on flavour (AFAIK relative to my role name), I think a double-vote would belong to Twinrova. And by canon of OoT, Twinrova is anti-town. Denying to be Twinrova does not convince me of why he would have a double-vote and be on town's side. I don't recall anyone in OoT that helps Link and has doubling abilities.

[Pesco47]

What's AFAIK?

As far as I know

From the signups/game info post, knowledge of OoT was beneficial, but not necessary. It means that one could discern abilities from the variety of items in the game, or role information attached to certain names.

[Pesco47]

Double Vote =/= Doubling ability in game just because the roles are "especially on flavr.

Let's remember to keep that in mind when someone claims before their flip.

[Pesco47]

You most definitely will

[Pesco47]

Players summary so far

Malthusis: Doublevoter almost guaranteed. Confirmed via his own posts and the vote count. I suspect him of being Twinrova according to flavour.

Natirasha and Ooba: Just coasting along on the side?

CoCam and iLord: Do fair a bit of OMGUS arguing. iLord seems to be paying special attention picking at CoCam's posts.

SP and Zaz: Reading a bit of town vibe for content effort.

Andersonw, ZONEACE, Raider: Mostly neutral reads. ZONEACE and Raider feel tipped to scummy.

Current top suspects to me are iLord, ZONEACE and Raider for their fence-sitting approach to everything so far. iLord is more pronounced in this regard.

Malthusis has done nothing to persuade me that he's not a pro-Ganon doublevoter.

Unvote, UnFoS
Vote Malthusis
FoS iLord

[Pesco47]

I'm willing to bet that flavour abilities carry over to our functional abilities (as per my own role as a reference). If Malthusis can make a plausible claim to a character that is not Ganon-aligned and explains his double-vote, I'll accept that he may not be scum.

[Pesco47]

I asked for a CHARACTER that can double-vote, not a ROLE.

[Pesco47]

Some things I want cleared up:

Malthusis is confirmed double-vote. The soft-claims were made and he's not denying it. It can be assumed that is his ROLE. For his CHARACTER, I'm sure that he would have gotten a safeclaim if he needed one. But his safeclaim doesn't fit his confirmed double-vote, therefore he is anti-town, most probably as Twinrova.

@Mod: You missed out a FoS on me from Malthusis

This vote count repair brought to you by Tarhalindur games. Tarhalindur games - consistent vote count quality* since 2008!

* or lack thereof. - Tar

[Pesco47]

@ Malt: Your safeclaim would have been perfectly fine if your double-vote ability wasn't so obvious now. Don't blame the mod for your screw-up. Btw, soft-claiming that you do have a safeclaim too?

[Pesco47]

Remind us why there's 3 votes on CoCam. I'll switch over if I agree.

But his safeclaim doesn't fit his confirmed double-vote, therefore he is anti-town, most probably as Twinrova.

When did he mention anything about a safeclaim? He hasn't even claimed, how would you know that it doesn't fit?

Refer here

@Pasco: Why do you think the reason I'm not claiming my CHARACTER is because my fakeclaim isn't compatible? (Plus, if I was scum, Tar would have not been dumb and given me an incompatible fakeclaim).

A double-voting role is no indication of alignment, but connected to his name, he's a scum character. He's slipped that he's got a safeclaim, and why would a good guy need to have a safeclaim?

[Pesco47]

Let's assume that CoCam suddenly also gets banished to the sacred realm. Who would you want to lynch now?

[Pesco47]

Got a case?

[Pesco47]

Basically because of your pushing for Mathuis to claim. The action is completely anti-town, but I can't really tell if you are scum because of it.

It can be pro-town in forcing a scum to claim blind. How is asking for Malt to claim his character anti-town?

[Pesco47]

Name claim and Role claims are different things.

[Pesco47]

@Malt : Basically a WIFOM you're giving us and an OMGUS vote.

@SP : Malt failed give a satisfactory answer. I asked for a name of a pro-Link character that had doubling abilities and he couldn't come up with one. Failing to defend himself, he has to try take me down with him for what he brought upon himself.

[Pesco47]

Mod: You sure the vote count is right? Isn't there 3 votes on Pesco (Mine, Coheed, and Silver's)

The vote count is correct at the going time of the post. Have some patience.

[Pesco47]

As of right now with how things stand, I don't feel like getting lynched at deadline. I'll also claim first at this psuedo L-1, then move my vote onto CoCam.

I'm Link, I wield the Mask of Truth in the past and a Master Sword in the future. I also hold the Triforce of Courage in both time phases which grants me the power to defeat evil.

Unvote, Vote CoCam

[Pesco47]

Vote ZONEACE

No lies in Truth. He's scum.

[Pesco47]

We don't need new suspects right now. Mask of Truth says you're scum and it doesn't lie.

[Pesco47]

Refer to post 257

[Pesco47]

It's more correct to say that it does exactly what it did in the OoT lore.

[Pesco47]

If you've played Zelda MM, the Mask of Truth could be used at that dog lady's place to find you a winner before placing your bet. There's also been instances where using the mask finds a guilty conscience.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: To actaully answer your question, ZONEACE is thinking ZONEACE is scum.

[Pesco47]

And I'd like to note Ooba's post was barely avoiding a Rule 15 prod. Your post will be taken into consideration as a possible link to ZONEACE after his flip.

[Pesco47]

At the dog lady's place in MM, put on the MoT, pick up a dog. If the dog thinks 'I feel like I can win today', you got a winner for the races[/offtopic]

Other than talking to gossip stones, MoT lets you hear the thoughts and read the hearts of others. The thoughts of ZONEACE said he was scum.

You've gotten his response to my results, the standard denial and a 'Maybe I'm miller'. Let's put those into consideration then. You've claimed Sage, but which sage was ever with a guilty conscience? If there was a possibility of being miller, you might be Dampe, but he's no Sage. The holes in your claim are too big for you to hide.

[Pesco47]

Thinking you are scum is the factual result, the guilty conscience is the flavour result. I'm calling you on both.

You gave a straight 'I'm not scum' denial and a separate statement of 'Maybe I'm miller'. Now you throw out further WIFOM about your play which is backed up by questionable meta. There's no escaping the fact that you're scum.

[Pesco47]

You're backing it by saying that you've never done those things as scum. The question is whether or not this is a first time you're going to claim 'maybe miller' as scum. That is WIFOM and also why your meta defense is questionable. How you play in another game is irrelevant to the fact that the results say you are scum.

[Pesco47]

You claimed "maybe I'm a miller" was a standard response. I have never seen that used (i'll admit its may have been used in games ive not been in) and I've never used it. Therefore IT'S NOT STANDARD. your making meta based statements to push guilt on me because of my response to your accusation. So maybe not accusing some
one of doing EXACLTY WHAT YOU'RE DOING might be a good idea.

I said you gave a standard denial

and

a 'Maybe I'm miller' in response to my declaration of the results. I have not used "standard response" to qualify the miller excuse. Whether or not that response is a commonplace, nothing changes the fact that you're scum squirming for an out. The simple answer at the end of the day is "ZONEACE is MAFIA".

[Pesco47]

Twighlight means you can still spew BS for us. Not that it matters because Rauru does NOT give Link the Light arrows, therefore you are lying.

[Pesco47]

Why would you have them arrows to begin with? Where's your 'fullclaim' that we didn't give you time for?

[Pesco47]

Btw, this jackass attitude of yours here is certainly not getting you any sympathy. Even though it's valid scum play, keep it within limits so we can all have a fun game without personal attacks.

[Pesco47]

In reference to what items I have, I felt the light arrows being anywhere near Rauru is an inconsistent event because Link gets them from Zelda.

It's twighlight and instead of whining about being lynched, he doesn't want to give us information to work with. If you don't want to be helpful then keep quiet and play dead.

[Pesco47]

Sigh dude. go to sleep and hopefully you'll feel better in the morning.

By your last post we can pretty much confirm you are scum and have no intention of helping town.

[Pesco47]

You're overstepping the limits of acceptable acting here. If you don't like the place then GTFO. Nobody forced you to be here and we don't have to put up with your angst.

[Pesco47]

@iLord: I don't quite get what you're asking me. Rephrase pls?

[Pesco47]

Trying to rationalise ZONACE's last actions before going out of line. From his point of view, he might have thought he could overturn my guilty result on him. Getting angry was probably because his buddies wagoned him too quickly for him to put up a fight.

Raider and Nat's votes didn't seem to instigate him much. iLord hammered, and Malt put the L-1. Co-incidentally, these 4 people are ones that I felt were possibly scum in my Day 1 summary. I'm at a loss as to who to pursue right now.

[Pesco47]

Why should I want to consider my sanity being an issue? Link could plausibly be naive, but I got a guilty result so that one is pretty clear.

[Pesco47]

This isn't a game of Dethy. There was no reason to consider sanity.

[Pesco47]

I didn't feel the need to investigate Malt (my prime suspect on Day 1) because his activity was sufficient evidence to start an interest in his lynch. There was enough of a 'posting record' should I have wanted to press a case. The same applied to iLord.

I acted on my instincts when deciding who to investigate. I named ZONEACE and raider as potential scum in my summary here:

Players summary so far

Malthusis: Doublevoter almost guaranteed. Confirmed via his own posts and the vote count. I suspect him of being Twinrova according to flavour.

Natirasha and Ooba: Just coasting along on the side?

CoCam and iLord: Do fair a bit of OMGUS arguing. iLord seems to be paying special attention picking at CoCam's posts.

SP and Zaz: Reading a bit of town vibe for content effort.

Andersonw, ZONEACE, Raider: Mostly neutral reads. ZONEACE and Raider feel tipped to scummy.

Current top suspects to me are iLord, ZONEACE and Raider for their fence-sitting approach to everything so far. iLord is more pronounced in this regard.

Malthusis has done nothing to persuade me that he's not a pro-Ganon doublevoter.

I chose the one with less activity, ZONEACE, and got a hit.

[Pesco47]

Pesco, why did you not question your sanity after ZONEACE claimed town after being lynched?

I trust my results to be accurate. There was no reason for me to doubt what I had been given. Why is that an issue after the flip has shown that my sanity is sane?

[Pesco47]

But wait, ZONEACE did lie, because he flipped scum. So what are you trying to get at here?

[Pesco47]

You sound like you still think ZONEACE is town after the flip and all.

[Pesco47]

What good reason is there for me not to believe my role PM? What good reason are you still believing ZONEACE is town after he's flipped scum AND modkilled in the manner most damaging to a scum faction?

[Pesco47]

Why should I believe anything he was saying? After he was lynched what's me backing out on my decision going to do for him? If every cop suddenly thought 'Hey guys, I might be insane' at every town claim from a guilty, the player might as well be a vanilla and not use their ability.

You need to stop with this pointless issue of my investigation reliability. If your ultimate goal is just to say that I bussed ZONEACE, then say it straight and present a better case.

[Pesco47]

Like I said many times before; I had no reason to question my sanity. I believed my results over everything he was saying or going to say.

[Pesco47]

Where do you want to go with this? You've been wording your questions to try and get me to say that I'm insane and my results can't be trusted. This has gone on long enough.

Vote iLord

[Pesco47]

I don't understand your question.

Post it again or make it clearer.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: I don't think anyone else understands your question either.

[Pesco47]

Logical townie process should be:

1. I got guilty on a player.
2. Claim guilty on player in thread.
3. Said player says he's innocent.
4. Ignore him and get him lynched.
5. After he is lynched, he still says that he is town.
6. He does not have any reason to lie - his alignment's about to be revealed and he's already lynched - it's twilight.
7. Therefore, I must assume that he's not lying.
8. And so, I must not be sane, or ZONEACE had a millerish role.
9. I ask ZONEACE why does he have a role that turns up guilty to my cop result, or speculate that I could be insane, since my result was apparently false.

You didn't go through 6-9.

Why?

6. He was acting out of line by that stage. Intentionally being unco-operative and unhelpful. Most importantly, continuing to lie.
7. Null point since he was still lying.
8. I believe my results over him.
9. We did ask, he refused to tell.

EBWOP: I don't think anyone else understands your question either.

Other than Malt, no ones's commented on it.

Because nobody else understands it either.

Pesco, why can't I see you in "Users online" section on the bottom of the main page where it shows everyone that's on?

This is of no importance to the game.

[Pesco47]

Is having that setting on a scum-tell in your opinion now? I'm getting frustrated at what you're not saying in plain language.

[Pesco47]

And now it's okay for ZONEACE to get angry and 'be townie' while I can't have that same benefit of the doubt?

If I had to follow your 9-step procedure for cops, I'd be jumping to some wild conclusions about my own role. You think it's how a cop should be playing, I don't. I'll believe what the mod tells me over what any other player says.

7. Therefore, I

must

assume that he's not lying.

That's too much of an insistence there. The lynched player

must

be right and I can't be? No matter what anyone believed about him then, that misconception should be corrected by the time a flip came around.

My current assumptions now are:
Scum can not perform their kill until it's Future Phase
Therefore, not being able to NK the cop they have to call bussing.

I've put ZONACE's final actions into perspective and concluded that he was probably most angry at his buddies bussing him too quickly. The main suspects being Malt (putting at L-1) and iLord (the hammer). Working to discredit the cop at any way possible is their best means of getting rid of me while they have no means to change the phase in their favour.

You don't need to worry about me lurking for the rest of the day. Mod prods exist for that reason. It shouldn't matter when I'm online or not, I'll post when I intend to speak up. And since this game still has 7 other people who should be active, let's see more posts from them.

[Pesco47]

I'll make a post when I'm feeling better (approx 12 hours). This isn't about answering anyone or posting at a certain time of day, this is about me delivering a post I've just promised.

[Pesco47]

You haven't had any reason. A townie in ZONEACE's position would have right to be angry - he was lynched before he could even claim!

PMS and the way you've been posing circular questions has been reason enough.

What's the difference between him responding to your arguments 10 minutes or 10 hours after you make them? It sounds like you want him to slip up by getting angry and wanting him to respond quickly.

You made a misquote, SP said that. In the end, no matter when I answer a question, as long as it is within the same phase and no change in player statuses have occurred, I will not have been avoiding any questions.

Now tell us again what you want to know from me in plain language. I will respond according to how I interpret the question. And don't go claiming I'm being ignorant on purpose because I have also said quite clearly here

@iLord: I don't quite get what you're asking me. Rephrase pls?

I'm saying that Pesco is sane and that he should trust his results right now.

If you can say something like this, then mean it.

I think iLord wants to know why Pesco had no doubts at all about his result. In all those posts afterwards, he tries to show Pesco why he should have had doubts. He never said anything about not believing Pesco's result.

If I can't trust the mod, then who can I trust? Certainly not one of the other players in the game.

If you guys want to say that lack of unexplained kills was due to external forces, fine by me. I won't question the miracle.

[Pesco47]

I believe the mod's word (my investigation result) over whatever he says.

[Pesco47]

@iLord: If I know nothing about the person getting lynched, I'll decide if I want to believe them after the flip-confirmation. I have only encountered cop sanities in Dethy, there is no gurantee of any cop sanity here, so I will take my role as sane until proven otherwise by a flip-confirmation.

In replying to you, I have come to consider the possibility of investigation immunes, cop-proof roles like a GF.

@Anderson: I won't doubt my sanity until irrefutable proof shows otherwise. My vote stays until a better target comes up. I was angry when I made the vote, but it's still justified by how much my role cred has been undermined.

[Pesco47]

iLord's post #423. Misquote again, something that another person is saying and crediting it to me. I can not believe someone like you could make a typo from 'Nat' to Pesco'.

Let us remember that ZONEACE ws modkilled for jackassery. Lying when he had no reason to under twilight is a possible offense. My feeling was not to trust him and just as he had no reason to lie, I have no reason to disbelieve the mod in giving me accurate results.

[Pesco47]

Where are all the people who have promised posts?

[Pesco47]

I looked at post 349. It sounds strange, but Zaz's question also seems pretty ambiguous as to what is specifically being asked.

[Pesco47]

@ Mod: Ooba has been missing since Monday. How many prods has he had?

Apparently this is only his second prod. (Yes, I knew he needed prodding yesterday; college course Hell Week is a pain in the arse.)

Consider him prodded and Officially Warned. I'll check to see if anyone else needs the prodstick. Also, raider's V/LA is noted. - Tar

SP and Zaz, kindly explain yourselves now that me and iLord have settled our differences.

[Pesco47]

Someone explain this whole thing to me? I didn't even notice when/where the mod made a mistake. I assume the correction was made while I was offline (timezone-wise).

[Pesco47]

I'll take SP as having made an honest mistake. I also recently confused tracker/watcher in another game.

FoS SP

seems fair.

I notice Ooba still failed to deliver a post within the time he specified himself.

[Pesco47]

I made a watcher/tracker mixup in another ongoing game here (no links, go find it yourself).

I'm still as suspicious of Malt as from the first day since he has now hammered twice, both times seemingly quite careless of the fact that he double votes.

[Pesco47]

I still don't like how you can make that many name typos.

[Pesco47]

I think it's a subtle trick you do to catch the people who only skim-read the posts.

[Pesco47]

It'll be a fine trick to try out in another game.